Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving

Editor’s Note: Following is an adapted excerpt from Pete Walker’s latest book, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving—A Guide and Map for Recovering from Childhood Trauma. For more information about treating Complex PTSD (CPTSD) and managing emotional flashbacks, read a previously published article by Pete Walker here

Attachment Disorder and Complex PTSD

Many traumatologists see attachment disorder as one of the key symptoms of Complex PTSD. In the psychoeducational phases of working with traumatized clients, I typically describe attachment disorder as the result of growing up with primary caretakers who were regularly experienced as dangerous. They were dangerous by contemptuous voice or heavy hand, or more insidiously, dangerous by remoteness and indifference.

Recurring abuse and neglect habituates children to living in fear and sympathetic nervous system arousal. It makes them easily triggerable into the abandonment mélange of overwhelming fear and shame that tangles up with the depressed feelings of being abandoned.

A child, with parents who are unable or unwilling to provide safe enough attachment, has no one to whom she can bring her whole developing self. No one is there for reflection, validation and guidance. No one is safe enough to go to for comfort or help in times of trouble. There is no one to cry to, to protest unfairness to, and to seek compassion from for hurts, mistakes, accidents, and betrayals. No one is safe enough to shine with, to do “show and tell” with, and to be reflected as a subject of pride. There is no one to even practice the all-important intimacy-building skills of conversation.

In the paraphrased words of more than one of my clients: “Talking to Mom was like giving ammunition to the enemy. Anything I said could and would be used against me. No wonder, people always tell me that I don’t seem to have much to say for myself.”

Those with CPTSD-spawned attachment disorders never learn the communication skills that engender closeness and a sense of belonging. When it comes to relating, they are often plagued by debilitating social anxiety—and social phobia when they are at the severe end of the continuum of CPTSD.

Many of the clients who come through my door have never had a safe enough relationship. Repetition compulsion drives them to unconsciously seek out relationships in adulthood that traumatically reenact the abusive and/or abandoning dynamics of their childhood caretakers. For many such clients, we are their first legitimate shot at a safe and nurturing relationship. If we are not skilled enough to create the degree of safety they need to begin the long journey towards developing good enough trust, we may be their last.

Emotional flashback management, therefore, is empowered when it is taught in the context of a safe relationship. Clients need to feel safe enough with their therapist to describe their humiliation and overwhelm. At the same time, the therapist needs to be nurturing enough to provide the empathy and calm support that was missing in the client’s early experience.

Just as importantly, the therapist needs to be able to tolerate and work therapeutically with the sudden evaporation of trust that is so characteristic of CPTSD. Trauma survivors do not have a volitional “on” switch for trust, even though their “off” switch is frequently automatically triggered during flashbacks. In therapy, the therapist must be able to work on reassurance and trust restoral over and over again. I have heard too many disappointing client stories about past therapists who got angry at them because they would not simply choose to trust them.

As the importance of this understanding ripens in me, I increasingly embrace an intersubjective or relational approach. That means that I believe that the quality of the clients’ relationship with me can provide a corrective emotional experience that saves them from being doomed to a lifetime of superficial connection, or worse, social isolation and alienation.

Moreover, I notice that without the development of a modicum of trust with me, my CPTSD clients are seriously delimited in their receptivity to my guidance, as well as to the ameliorative effects of my empathy. In this regard then, I will describe four key qualities of relating that I believe are essential to the development of trust, and the subsequent relational healing that can come out of it. These are empathy, authentic vulnerability, dialogicality and collaborative relationship repair.

1. Empathy

I used to assume that the merits of empathy were a given, but I have sadly heard too many stories of empathy-impoverished therapy. In this regard, I will simply say here that if we are hard and unsympathetic with our clients, we trigger the same sense of danger and abandonment in them that they experienced with their parents.

In terms of a definition, I especially like Kohut’s statement that: “Empathy involves immersing yourself in another’s psychological state by feeling yourself into the other’s experience.”

When I delve deeply enough into a client’s experience, no matter how initially perplexing or intemperate it may at first seem, I inevitably find psychological sense in it, especially when I recognize its flashback components. In fact, I can honestly say that I have never met a feeling or behavior that did not make sense when viewed through the lenses of transference and traumatology.

Empathy, of course, deepens via careful listening and full elicitation of the client’s experience, along with the time-honored techniques of mirroring and paraphrasing which show the client the degree to which we get him.

Noticing my subjective free associations often enhances my empathic attunement and ability to reflect back to the client in an emotionally accurate and validating way. When appropriate, I sometimes share my autobiographical free associations with the client when they are emotionally analogous. I do this to let her know that I really empathize with what she is sharing.

Following is an example. My client tells me with great embarrassment that she stayed home all weekend because she had a pimple on her nose. She is ashamed of the pimple and of her “vanity’’ about it. She moans: “How could I be so stupid to let such a little thing bother me?” I suddenly remember cancelling a date once when I had a cold sore. At the time, I also got lost in a toxic shame attack. I share this with her, minus present day shame about it. She tears up and then laughs, relieved as her shame melts away. Months later, she tells me that her trust in me mushroomed at that moment. Guidelines for being judicious about this kind of self-disclosure will be discussed below.

Of the many benefits of empathy, the greatest is perhaps that it models and teaches self-empathy, better known as self-acceptance. To the degree that we attune to and welcome all of the client’s experience, to that same degree can the client learn to welcome it in her- or himself.

2. Authentic Vulnerability

Authentic vulnerability is a second quality of intimate relating which often begins with emotionally reverberating with the client. I have found that emotional reflection of the client’s feelings is irreplaceable in fostering the development of trust and real relational intimacy.

Emotional reflection requires the therapist to be emotionally vulnerable himself and reveal that he too feels mad, sad, bad and scared sometimes. Modeling vulnerability, as with empathy, demonstrates to the client the value of being vulnerable and encourages her to risk wading into her own vulnerability.

I came to value therapeutic vulnerability the hard way via its absence in my own therapy with a therapist who was of the old, “blank screen” school. She was distant, laconic and over-withholding in her commitment to the psychoanalytic principle of “optimal frustration.” Therapy with her was actually counter-therapeutic and shame-exacerbating for me as we reenacted a defective child/perfect parent dynamic.

Therapeutic Emotional Disclosure
Thankfully, I eventually realized that I had unresolved attachment issues, and sought out a relational therapist who valued the use of her own vulnerable and emotionally authentic self as a tool in therapy. Her tempered and timely emotional self-disclosures helped me to deconstruct the veneer of invincibility I had built as a child to hide my pain. Here are some examples that were especially helpful. “God, the holidays can be awful.” “I get scared when I teach a class too.” “I’m so sorry. I just missed what you said. I got a little distracted by my anxiety about my dental appointment this afternoon.” “I feel sad that your mother was so mean to you.” “It makes me angry that you were so bullied by your parents.”

“My therapist’s modeling that anger, sadness, fear, and depression were emotions that could be healthily expressed helped me to renounce the pain-repressing, emotional perfectionism in which I was mired.” With her, I learned to stop burying my feelings in the hope of being loved. I renounced my just-get-over-it philosophy and embraced vulnerability as a way of finally getting close to people.

I needed this kind of modeling, as so many of my clients have, to begin to emerge from my fear of being attacked, shamed or abandoned for feeling bad and having dysphoric feelings. In order to let go of my Sisyphean salvation fantasy of achieving constant happiness, I needed to experience that all the less than shiny bits of me were acceptable to another human being. Seeing that she was comfortable with and accepting of her own unhappy feelings eventually convinced me that she really was not disgusted by mine.

The therapist’s judicious use of emotional self-disclosure helps the client move out of the slippery, shame-lined pit of emotional perfectionism. Here are some self-revealing things that I say to encourage my clients to be more emotionally self-accepting. “I feel really sad about what happened to you.” “I feel really angry that you got stuck with such a god-awful family.” “When I’m temporarily confused and don’t know what to say or do, I…” “When I’m having a shame attack, I…” “When something triggers me into fear, I…” “When my inner critic is overreacting, I remind myself of the Winnicottian concept that I only have to be a ‘good enough person.’”

Here are two examples of emotional self-disclosure that are fundamental tools of my therapeutic work. I repeatedly express my genuine indignation that the survivor was taught to hate himself. Over time, this often awakens the survivor’s instinct to also feel incensed about this travesty. This then empowers him to begin standing up to the inner critic. This in turn aids him to emotionally invest in the multidimensional work of building healthy self-advocacy.

Furthermore, I also repeatedly respond with empathy and compassion to the survivor’s suffering. With time, this typically helps to awaken the recoveree’s capacity for self-empathy. She then gradually learns to comfort herself when she is in a flashback or otherwise painful life situation. Less and less often does she surrender to an inner torture of self-hate, self-disappointment, and self-abandonment.

My most consistent feedback from past clients is that responses like these—especially ones that normalize fear and depression—helped them immeasurably to deconstruct their perfectionism, and open up to self-compassion and self-acceptance.

Guidelines for Self-Disclosure
What guidelines, then, can we use to insure that our self-disclosure is judicious and therapeutic? I believe the following five principles help me to disclose therapeutically and steer clear of unconsciously sharing for my own narcissistic gratification.

First, I use self-disclosure sparingly.

Second, my disclosures are offered primarily to promote a matrix of safety and trust in the relationship. In this vein my vulnerability is offered to normalize and de-shame the inexorable, existential imperfection of the human condition, e.g., we all make mistakes, suffer painful feelings, experience confusion, etc.

Third, I do not share vulnerabilities that are currently raw and unintegrated.

Fourth, I never disclose in order to work through my own “stuff,” or to meet my own narcissistic need for verbal ventilation or personal edification.

Fifth, while I may share my appreciation or be touched by a client’s attempt or offer to focus on or soothe my vulnerabilities, I never accept the offer. I gently thank them for their concern, remind them that our work is client-centered, and let them know that I have an outside support network.

Emotional Self-disclosure and Sharing Parallel Trauma History
Since many of my clients have sought my services after reading my somewhat autobiographical book on recovery from the dysfunctional family, self-disclosure about my past trauma is sometimes a moot point. This condition has at the same time helped me realize how powerful this kind of disclosure can be in healing shame and cultivating hope.

Over and over, clients have told me that my vulnerable and pragmatic stories of working through my parents’ traumatizing abuse and neglect gives them the courage to engage the long difficult journey of recovering. But whether or not someone has read my book, I will—with appropriate clients—judiciously and sparingly share my own experiences of dealing with an issue they have currently brought up. I do this both to psychoeducate them and to model ways that they might address their own analogous concerns.

One common example sounds like this: “I hate flashbacks too. Even though I get them much less than when I started this work, falling back into that old fear and shame is so awful.”

I also sometimes say: “I really reverberate with your feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness around the inner critic. In the early stages of this work, I often felt overwhelmingly frustrated. It seemed that trying to shrink it actually made it worse. But now after ten thousand repetitions of thought-stopping and thought-correction, my critic is a mere shadow of its former self.”

A final example concerns a purely emotional self-disclosure. When a client is verbally ventilating about a sorrowful experience, I sometimes allow my tears to brim up in my eyes in authentic commiseration with their pain. The first time my most helpful therapist did this with me, I experienced a quantum leap in my trust of her.

3. Dialogicality

Dialogicality occurs when two conversing people move fluidly and interchangeably between speaking (an aspect of healthy narcissism) and listening (an aspect of healthy codependence). Such reciprocal interactions prevent either person from polarizing to a dysfunctional narcissistic or codependent type of relating.

Dialogicality energizes both participants in a conversation. Dialogical relating stands in contrast to the monological energy-theft that characterizes interactions whereby a narcissist pathologically exploits a codependent’s listening defense. Numerous people have reverberated with my observation that listening to a narcissist monologue feels as if it is draining them of energy.

I have become so mindful of this dynamic that, in a new social situation, a sudden sense of tiredness often warns me that I am talking with a narcissist. How different than the elevation I sense in myself and my fellow conversant in a truly reciprocal exchange. Again, I wonder if there are mirror neurons involved in this.

I was appalled the other day while perusing a home shopping catalog to see a set of coffee cups for sale that bore the monikers “Designated Talker” and “Designated Listener.” My wife and I pondered it for a few minutes, and hypothesized that it had to be a narcissist who designed those mugs. We imagined we could see the narcissists who order them presenting them to their favorite sounding boards as Christmas presents.

In therapy, dialogicality develops out of a teamwork approach—a mutual brainstorming about the client’s issues and concerns. Such an approach cultivates full exploration of ambivalences, conflicts and other life difficulties.

Dialogicality is enhanced when the therapist offers feedback from a take-it-or-leave-it stance. Dialogicality also implies respectful mutuality. It stands in stark contrast to the blank screen neutrality and abstinence of traditional psychoanalytic therapy, which all too often reenacts the verbal and emotional neglect of childhood. I believe abstinence commonly flashes the client back into feelings of abandonment, which triggers them to retreat into “safe” superficial disclosure, ever-growing muteness and/or early flight from therapy.

Meeting Healthy Narcissistic Needs
All this being said, extensive dialogicality is often inappropriate in the early stages of therapy. This is especially true, when the client’s normal narcissistic needs have never been gratified, and remain developmentally arrested. In such cases, clients need to be extensively heard. They need to discover through the agency of spontaneous self-expression the nature of their own feelings, needs, preferences and views.

For those survivors whose self-expression was especially decimated by their caretakers, self-focused verbal exploration typically needs to be the dominant activity for a great deal of time. Without this, the unformed healthy ego has no room to grow and break free from the critic. The client’s healthy sense of self remains imprisoned beneath the hegemony of the outsized superego.

This does not mean, however, that the client benefits when the therapist retreats into extremely polarized listening. Most benefit, as early as the first session, from hearing something real or “personal” from the therapist. This helps overcome the shame-inducing potential that arises in the “One-seen (client) / One-unseen (therapist)” dynamic. “When one person is being vulnerable and the other is not, shame has a huge universe in which to grow.” This also creates a potential for the client to get stuck flashing back to childhood when the vulnerable child was rejected over and over by the seemingly invulnerable parent. Consequently, many of my colleagues see group therapy as especially powerful for healing shame, because it rectifies this imbalance by creating a milieu where it is not just one person who is risking being vulnerable.

In this regard, it is interesting to note a large survey of California therapists that occurred about fifteen years ago. The survey was about their therapy preferences, and upwards of ninety percent emphasized that they did not want a blank screen therapist, but rather one who occasionally offered opinions and advice.

For twenty-five years, I have been routinely asking clients in the first session: “Based on your previous experiences in therapy, what would you like to happen in our work together; and what don’t you want to happen?” How frequently clients respond similarly to the therapists in the survey!

Moreover, the next most common response I receive is that I don’t want a therapist who does all the talking. More than a few have used the exact phrase: “I couldn’t get a word in edgewise!” “How I wish there was a way that our qualification tests could spot and disqualify the narcissists who get licensed and then turn their already codependent clients into sounding boards.” This is the shadowy flipside polarity of the blank screen therapist.

Psychoeducation as Part of Dialogicality
Experience has taught me that clients who are childhood trauma survivors typically benefit from psychoeducation about Complex PTSD. When clients understand the whole picture of CPTSD recovery, they become more motivated to participate in the self-help practices of recovering. This also increases their overall hopefulness and general engagement in the therapeutic process. I sometimes wonder whether the rise in the popularity of coaching has been a reaction to the various traditional forms of therapeutic neglect.

One of the worst forms of therapeutic neglect occurs when the therapist fails to notice or challenge a client’s incessant, self-hating diatribes. This, I believe, is akin to tacitly approving of and silently colluding with the inner critic.

Perhaps therapeutic withholding and abstinence derives from the absent father syndrome that afflicts so many westernized families. Perhaps traditional psychotherapy overemphasizes the mothering principles of listening and unconditional love, and neglects the fathering principles of encouragement and guidance that coaching specializes in.

Too much coaching is, of course, as counter-therapeutic and unbalanced as too much listening. It can interfere with the client’s process of self-exploration and self-discovery as described above. At its worst, it can lure the therapist into the narcissistic trap of falling in love with the sound of his own voice.

At its best, coaching is an indispensable therapeutic tool. Just as it takes fathering and mothering to raise a balanced child, mothering and fathering principles are needed to meet the developmental arrests of the attachment-deprived client.

The sophisticated therapist values both and intuitively oscillates between the two, depending on the developmental needs of the client in the moment. Sometimes we guide with psychoeducation, therapeutic self-disclosure and active positive noticing, and most times we receptively nurture the client’s evolving practice of her own spontaneously arising self-expression and verbal ventilation.

Once again, I believe that in early therapy and many subsequent stages of therapy, the latter process typically needs to predominate. In this vein, I would guess that over the course of most therapies that I conduct, I listen about ninety percent of the time.

Finally, I often notice that the last phase of therapy is often characterized by increasing dialogicality—a more balanced fluidity of talking and listening. This conversational reciprocity is a key characteristic of healthy intimacy. Moreover, when therapy is successful, progress in mutuality begins to serve the client in creating healthier relationships in the outside world.

Dialogicality and the 4F’s (Fight/Flight/Freeze/Fawn)
Because of childhood abandonment and repetition compulsion in later relationships, many 4F types are “dying” to be heard. Different types however vary considerably in their dialogical needs over the course of therapy.

The Fawn/ Codependent type, who survived in childhood by becoming a parent’s sounding board or shoulder to cry on, may use her listening defense to encourage the therapist to do too much of the talking. With her eliciting defense, she may even invoke the careless therapist into narcissistically monologuing himself.

The Freeze/Dissociative type, who learned early to seek safety in the camouflage of silence, often needs a great deal of encouragement to discover and talk about his inner experience. Psychoeducation can help him understand how his healthy narcissistic need to express himself was never nurtured in his family.

Furthermore, freeze types can easily get lost in superficial and barely relevant free associations as they struggle to learn to talk about themselves. This of course needs to be welcomed for some time, but eventually we must help him see that his flights of fantasy or endless dream elaborations are primarily manifestations of his dissociative defense.

“Freeze types need to learn that emotionally disconnected talking is an old childhood habit that was developed to keep them buoyant above their undealt with emotional pain.” Because of this, we must repeatedly guide them toward their feelings so that they can learn to express their most important concerns.

The Fight/Narcissistic type, who often enters therapy habituated to holding court, typically dodges real intimacy with her talking defense. Therapy can actually be counterproductive for these types as months or years of uninterrupted monologuing in sessions exacerbate their sense of entitlement. By providing a steady diet of uninterrupted listening, the therapist strengthens their intimacy-destroying defense of over-controlling conversations. Sooner or later, we must insert ourselves into the relationship to work on helping them learn to listen.

As I write this, I remember Harry from my internship whose tiny capacity to listen to his wife evaporated as my fifty minutes of uninterrupted listening became his new norm and expectation in relationship. I felt guilty when I learned this from listening to a recorded message from his wife about how therapy was making him even more insufferable. I was relieved, however, a few years later when a different client told me that Harry’s wife eventually felt happy about this “therapeutic” change. Her husband’s increased self-centeredness was the last straw for her and she finally, with great relief, shed herself of him.

“A therapist, who is a fawn type herself, may hide in a listening and eliciting defense to avoid the scary work of gradually insinuating herself into the relationship and nudging it towards dialogicality.” If we do not nudge the client to interact, there will be no recovering.

The Flight/Obsessive-compulsive type sometimes presents as being more dialogical than other types. Like the freeze type, however, he can obsess about “safe” abstract concerns that are quite removed from his deeper issues. It is therefore up to the therapist to steer him into his deeper, emotionally based concerns to help him learn a more intimacy-enhancing dialogicality. Otherwise, the flight type can remain stuck and floundering in obsessive perseverations about superficial worries that are little more than left-brain dissociations from his repressed pain.

It is important to note here that all 4F types use left- or right-brain dissociative processes to avoid feeling and grieving their childhood losses. As dialogicality is established, it can then be oriented toward helping them to uncover and verbally and emotionally vent their ungrieved hurts.

4. Collaborative Relationship Repair

Collaborative relationship repair is the process by which relationships recover and grow closer from successful conflict resolution. Misattunements and periods of disaffection are existential to every relationship of substance. We all need to learn a process for restoring intimacy when a disagreement temporarily disrupts our feeling of being safely connected.

“I believe most people, if they think about it, realize that their best friends are those with whom they have had a conflict and found a way to work through it.” Once a friendship survives a hurtful misattunement, it generally means that it has moved through the fair-weather-friends stage of relationship.

Synchronistic with writing this section, my son uncharacteristically got into a conflict at school. During third grade recess two of his good friends, also uncharacteristically, started teasing him, and when they would not stop he pushed each of them. This earned them all a trip to the principal’s office. The principal is a strict but exceptionally wise and kind woman. My son’s offense, using physical force to resolve a conflict, was judged as the most serious violation of school policy, but his friends were also held responsible for their part and given an enlightening lecture on teasing.

My son, not used to being in trouble, had a good cry about it all. He then agreed that a one-day loss of recess plus writing letters of apology to his friends were fair consequences. Two days later, I asked him how things were going now between him and the two friends. With a look of surprise and delight, he told me: “It’s really funny, daddy. Now it feels like we’re even better friends than we were before.”

Rapport repair is probably the most transformative, intimacy-building process that a therapist can model. I guide this process from a perspective that recognizes that there is usually a mutual contribution to any misattunement or conflict. Therefore, a mutually respectful dialogical process is typically needed to repair rapport.

Exceptions to this include scapegoating and upsets that are instigated by a bullying narcissist. In those situations, they are solely at fault. I have often been saddened by codependent clients who apologize to their bullying parents as if they made their parents abuse them.

In more normal misattunements, I often initiate the repair process with two contiguous interventions. Firstly, I identify the misattunement (e.g., “I think I might have misunderstood you.”) And secondly, I then model vulnerability by describing what I think might be my contribution to the disconnection.

Abbreviated examples of this are: “I think I may have just been somewhat preachy…or tired…or inattentive…or impatient…or triggered by my own transference.” Owning your part in a conflict validates the normality of relational disappointment and the art of amiable resolution.

Taking responsibility for your role in a misunderstanding also helps deconstruct the client’s outer critic belief that relationships have to be perfect. At the same time, it models a constructive approach to resolving conflicts, and over time leads most clients to become interested in exploring their contribution to the conflict. This becomes an invaluable skill which they can then take into their outside relationships.

As one might expect, fight types are the least likely of the 4F’s to collaborate and own their side of the street in a misattunement. Extreme fight types such as those diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder have long been considered untreatable in traditional psychoanalysis for this reason.

With less extreme fight types, I sometimes succeed in psychoeducating them on how they learned their controlling defenses. From there I try to help them see how much they pay for being so controlling. At the top of the list of debits is intimacy-starvation. Consciously or not, they hunger for human warmth and they do not get it from those whom they control. Victims of fight types are too afraid of them to relax enough to generate authentically warm feelings.

Finally, I believe one of the most common reasons that clients terminate prematurely is the gradual accumulation of dissatisfactions that they do not feel safe enough to bring up or talk about. How sad it is that all kinds of promising relationships wither and die from an individual or couple’s inability to safely work through differences and conflict.

Earned Secure Attachment
In therapy, clients get the most out of their session by learning to stay in interpersonal contact while they communicate from their emotional pain. This gradually shows them that they are acceptable and worthwhile no matter what they are feeling and experiencing.

As survivors realize more deeply that their flashbacks are normal responses to abnormal childhood conditions, their shame begins to melt. This then eases their fear of being seen as defective. In turn, their habits of isolating or pushing others away during flashbacks diminish.

Earned secure attachment is a newly recognized category of healthy attachment. Many attachment therapists believe that effective treatment can help a survivor “earn” at least one truly intimate relationship. Good therapy can be an intimacy-modeling relationship. It fosters our learning and practicing of intimacy-making behavior. Your connection with your therapist can become a transitional earned secure attachment. This in turn can lead to the attainment of an earned secure attachment outside of therapy. I have repeatedly seen this result with my most successful clients, and I am grateful to report that my last experience with my own therapy lead me to this reward.

Our Hungry Selves: Women, Eating and Identity

The Tyranny of Slenderness

In the early eighties I wrote several books about eating disorders; one of them became a national best seller. In the first book: The Obsession, Reflections on the Tyranny of Slenderness, I researched the way our culture's fear of women was directed against women's bodies and, in particular, against a large woman's body. I felt that the cultural preference for very slender women revealed a wish to see women reduce themselves as women and relinquish their power.

Here’s how I reasoned back then: “The body holds meaning. A woman obsessed with the size of her body, wishing to make her breasts and thighs and hips and belly smaller and less apparent, may be expressing the fact that she feels uncomfortable being female in this culture. A woman obsessed with the size of her appetite, wishing to control her hungers and urges, may be expressing the fact that she has been taught to regard her emotional life, her passions and 'appetites,' as dangerous, requiring control and careful monitoring. “A woman obsessed with the reduction of her flesh may be revealing the fact that she is alienated from a natural source of female power and has not been allowed to develop a reverential feeling for her body.””

The second book, The Hungry Self: Women, Eating and Identity, studied the way a woman's hunger for self-development, creative expression and liberation might express itself if it was not recognized as a hunger for food. I was curious about the emotion and conflict and turbulence that might be disguised as a craving for food, and especially “forbidden” foods like carbohydrates and sweets. “In [this] book I extend [my] analysis to include the mother/daughter bond and the issue of failed female development….We cannot heal ourselves until we understand the hidden struggle for self-development that eating disorders bring to expression in a covert way. We cannot indeed even begin to think of self-healing until we stop using the words “eating disorders” to hide from ourselves the formidable struggle for a self in which every woman suffering in her relationship to food is secretly engaged.”

In the third book, Reinventing Eve: Modern Woman in Search of a Self, I issued a call to women to step up and re-invent ourselves, freeing ourselves from the pressures and constraints of a society that feared women. I saw Eve as a radical, the first woman who was forbidden to eat food and who broke the taboo. “Women speaking intimately about their lives are usually, whether they know it or name it, on the far side of outworn ideas…We [have had] to start with the assumption that we knew little, had been lied to a great deal, that secrets had been kept from us, we were setting out as pioneers together, groping to find a suitable language for our experience….”

The Tyranny of Obesity

Thirty years later these ideas are still meaningful to me but my vision of possibility has been checked. “Fat is Beautiful,” a movement I greatly admired, has now become, thirty years later, a group of aging, obese women with serious health problems. I used to refer women who wanted to lose weight to other clinicians; I explained that my work offered them a chance to make peace with their body, not to change it. I now look back and think that I was rather close-minded, as if I knew what should matter to every woman who came to me for help.

Over these thirty years I've counseled countless women, discussed these issues with them, found them open to these ideas, yet progressively we have realized that it was no easy task to overcome the predominant dislike for big, fat or obese women. This overcoming of cultural dictates is a task suitable for some of us, not for everyone, and why should it be? Many women would rather work towards the body our culture admires than analyze the reasons they dislike their body as it is.

When I began to speak these ideas publicly, women who had read my earlier books were shocked; they felt that I had abandoned them in their quest to accept their body and their appetites. This new orientation seemed a betrayal, a renunciation of my earlier thinking with its cultural and psychological understandings. But I myself had begun to feel that my earlier ideas were hardening into an absolute, as if what was right for some women had to be right for all women, another once-size-fits-all approach to women and food.

I’ve had to explain that these days more and more women have to lose weight for the sake of their health, and that my clients and I had found a way to transform dieting from a self-defeating, frustrating, futile exercise into a useful therapeutic tool. A diet is—or can be—a way of becoming conscious of why one eats or feels driven to eat. Paradoxically, limiting what we eat is often the most direct way to uncover the feelings that drive us into self-destructive eating. Earlier, I had been opposed to the very idea of dieting, now I was willing to offer women help if they chose to diet. I left the decision to them, offering them both possibilities of work—towards body acceptance, weight loss, or sometimes the two together.

But there is more. There are other changes during the last thirty years that I have come to take very seriously. Following Michael Pollan, I began to study the food we are given to eat, so much of which has been degraded. The additives in it actively cause weight gain, and it is offered up in mega portions we tend to accept because there they are on the plate in front of us. As Michael Pollan writes: "Researchers have found that people (and animals) presented with large portions will eat up to 30 percent more than they would otherwise." Some of the weight we unhappily carry around with us is not really ours, it isn't natural, we haven't chosen it. Much of it has come upon us in surreptitious ways, through mysteriously named presences in our food, like high fructose corn syrup and its near-relations—aspartamine, glucose, dextrose, maltodextrin, maltose—which most people do not recognize as sweeteners. Even when reading a label and consciously hoping to avoid sugar, we end up with sweetening agents we don't want.

The Tyranny of American Culture

Thirty years ago I was asked to help people suffering from anorexia, bulimia and compulsive eating; these days women are calling me because, over the years, they have gained so much weight their doctors are alarmed for them. It was short-sighted to send them to someone else when I was a person who had dieted on and off for most of my life, at times winning, at times losing, the battle against our culture’s standards. And wasn’t I now, just as then, responding to a cry for help from our culture? After all, three of every five Americans are overweight. Obesity is an epidemic.

And so too is a woman's unhappy preoccupation with the size and shape of her body, or some part of her body, or some new diet that promises to change her body. I know this, not only from my clients, but far more intimately from myself. “I am a feminist, I care about women's self-development and the cultural and psychological obstacles that inhibit it, yet I have struggled, since the age of seventeen, to be at home in a body that has never been overweight but still has not been acceptable to me.” In spite of my three books about women and food, and all the lectures I have given, and the deep conversations in which I've been engaged; even in spite of the fact that I never any longer eat compulsively, a preoccupation with food and body size is still hanging around in my life. As a result, I can no longer underestimate the power of this conflict, as I observe it listing towards a feminist understanding about a woman's right to make decisions about her body, free of cultural pressures, and then spinning off in the opposite direction towards the next miracle diet that comes along, promising a body that conforms to our culture's punishing ideals. Weight and body size present us with a problem for which we don’t have an adequate solution.

Taken together, these are good reasons to change one’s point of view. I have changed mine in an effort to supplement—not replace—my earlier work. I intend to help people find the right diet and support them while they are losing weight, an emotionally demanding task whatever the nature of the diet. But losing weight is only part of it; we have to learn to eat in a way that often contradicts everything we’ve been taught about healthy nutrition. Not three meals a day but a small meal every couple of hours; not avoiding water because it may produce weight gain but drinking quarts of it; eating at night, before bed, because the body even in sleep requires 500 calories to keep itself going. Eating fat because we feel nourished by it, learning what are desirable portions, eating local produce because the food contains more of what food should contain and will therefore nourish us in smaller amounts. There is no one diet that is suitable for everyone—creating the right diet has elements of a quest for identity, a coming to know and be able to choose what is good for one. If this isn’t meaningful therapeutic work I don’t know what is.

Catherine's Story

A client of many years returned to work with me. Her doctor had just told her she had to lose between 25 and 40 pounds because her medical condition was severe. She came full of despair, wondering how we could approach this assignment since we had always discussed body-acceptance and appreciation for big and voluptuous women, which she was. Beautiful, certainly; but perhaps not healthy?

I began to work with Catherine in 1995. She was 26 at the time, a graduate from an Ivy League school, a women’s studies major who sought me out because she had read my books. She came from a small town on the East Coast, from a family active in their Episcopal church. For her to leave home, move to the West Coast, live with a man to whom she was not married, give up all religious affiliation and develop an interest in feminism while her two sisters and one brother remained close to home, was daring. She had graduated with honors and gone out into the world eager to make the most of herself. But this promising development had stalled. She was working as a secretary at a job she hated, was preoccupied with compulsive eating and her body’s size, found life meaningless and disappointing, described herself as depressed and despairing and at times suicidal. I was then in training with Otto Will, who had trained with Harry Stack Sullivan, who had worked with Freda Fromm Reichman. I was following their interpersonal approach with a dose of object relations mixed in, supplemented by an analytic interest in childhood memories.

Catherine found it almost impossible to cook for herself, although she had no trouble cooking on the night assigned to her by her collective. She didn’t plan for her meals but grazed throughout the day, almost entirely on cookies, candies and anything sweet. She ate in secret, disliked herself for doing so, was afraid that I was judging her, and suffered from guilt and remorse. Together, we observed the nuances of our relationship as it developed over many years, curious about the fact that she always stopped for food before her session and immediately went out afterwards for a piece of cake. She suggested that she was filling herself up so as not to bring a ferocious desire to eat into the room with me, evidently afraid that she would gobble me up. The cake that came after the session was to restore the energy that she felt had been depleted in thinking about these issues. She discovered that she refused to cook for herself because she wanted her mother to cook for her and would rather not eat than have to provide food for herself. Although she had voluntarily left the family for a larger life, she missed the closeness and safety of the small town, their church and especially her mother’s devotion to feeding the family. She was brilliant and analytic and good at interpreting symptoms; her childhood memories grew richer and more plentiful over the years, as did her ability to piece together a plausible narrative of her childhood. “Catherine ate in secret, disliked herself for doing so, was afraid that I was judging her, and suffered from guilt and remorse.”

She was the youngest in her family, and by the time she arrived her mother was exhausted and depleted. She hadn’t wanted another child, her milk dried up when Catherine was a few weeks old, and the care of the infant was largely handed over to her elder sister. Nevertheless, on the surface they were a happy, close-knit family, admired in their church and appreciated for their good works. Mother spent the day cooking for them, trying out new menus and culinary ideas, seemingly satisfied with her life but with an undercurrent of bitterness only Catherine seemed to recognize. Although well fed by her mother as she was growing up, Catherine began to wonder if she’d ever been nourished. Even her desire to have mother cook for her now that she was an adult began to seem a poignant wish that mother’s care and even her cooking had contained more authentic nourishment. The family dinners, which she’d always remembered as happy occasions, began to reveal their seams of stress—her older sister resenting her for the care she’d given her, her brother, two years older, in fierce competition for attention, her father absent, the second sister gentle and meek, as if she’d early decided that life was not going to offer her much, mother tyrannical when it came to the family’s enjoyment of her cooking. Dinner table conversation was lively but largely restricted to comments and conversation about food.

Catherine’s life changed dramatically through our work. She left her job, started a not-for-profit organization that became very successful, developed a strong interest in psychology, got an M.A. in counseling, worked out an honest and passionate relationship with her boyfriend, bought a house with several friends and lived collectively. When she got pregnant she decided to stop her work with me, owing both to financial concerns and to a general feeling that we had accomplished much and that she wasn’t capable at that time of going further. She still ate compulsively, giving us both the impression there was a lot more to understand.

I present this story in order to muse about the fact that excellent psychological work can be done that nevertheless does not reach a troubling emotional core. This did not surprise me. In my decades of work with eating disorders I have found that the underlying reasons a person eats compulsively, or eats more than they want, or far less than they ought, are hard to experience as direct, unmediated emotional events. The symptoms of a troubled relationship to food are so powerful and so deeply ingrained in the way one soothes and rewards oneself, hides from loneliness, expresses outrage and sorrow and in general shuts off consciousness, that it is hard to get beneath symptom into the raw emotion that is giving rise to it. She sensed that there was more to her emotional life than we'd yet explored; nevertheless, that is where we left it until, six years later, she came to speak with me about her doctor’s insistence that she lose weight.

Catherine's Diary

I have permission to quote from the diary she kept during the first three weeks of the diet. My comments follow her diary entries. This is not a description of the way Catherine and I worked together but an account of her process of uncovering meaning in what earlier had been unconscious, compulsive acts.

Catherine: I have a strange sensation—I am not really that hungry, though I can feel an underlying pull in my stomach now that's it's been a few hours since my breakfast. I am sad and irritable. My mind brightly goes to "treat" several times an hour, for myself, and socially ("like, oh I should take the girls out for burritos for lunch!" "I want a latte and a scone!"). Then I am disappointed in some deep way when I remember, but it's not exactly about being hungry. Fascinating. What is it about?

I am interested in the fact that from the first day of dieting hunger is put under suspicion. It can’t be taken at face value. This is an insight Catherine has not had before.

Catherine: Today, the glutton, the sensualist in me rebels. I can feel a sense of victimization mounting. "I hate restriction, I don't want to do this."

Here, as we can see, the issue has now become one of dislike for restriction. Insight is developing: this is a character trait, not an eating behavior. Catherine has not previously named in herself this rebellion against limitation. Indeed, it would be hard to recognize when there is a lifetime pattern of instant self-gratification.

Catherine: “OK, this is bearable, I am OK. But the sense of comfort I am missing—I am working so hard, I am so tired and worn out from childcare. How will I replace food as comfort? How? How? So far there is no replacement and I’m not sure there ever could be one. I am working so hard.

An additional meaning has been attributed to food. It is now recognized not only as a comfort but also as a reward for having had a hard time. This is a steady growth in the capacity to think symbolically. Hunger is no longer simply hunger and food is no longer simply food.

Catherine: It’s not hunger that’s hard. What I have to know about myself is what’s hard. I’d rather not know.

The progression of self-awareness has moved on into the striking discovery that the struggle with food has been a drama about self-knowledge. Or rather, about refusing self-knowledge. This is a lot of insight to achieve in a week.

Catherine: Last night at the party someone said I seemed like a happy person and I felt so embarrassed I almost cried. "I am having a terrible time, I'm filled with jealousy and poison," I thought. "Why does she think I'm happy?

Catherine has always had the capacity to seem happy, well-adjusted and cheerful, traits that were required by her family. They’ve been a second skin and only now are being viewed as alien. Although these traits have served as a protective covering, they have also been misleading as to who she really is. As she comes to know herself authentically, a wish to be authentically known begins to emerge.

Catherine: The depressive, dark, roiling, murky, angry, resentful, revengeful part of me is so present now when I am alone and I never show it in public—Who is this? I can see why she’s been out of sight. I don’t want her. I feel suffocated by these feelings and their bare truth. I can't push this part of me away and "think positive." I must integrate, integrate, integrate. I wish I could cry, but I feel so bottled up. Maybe I will cry today. Would crying be more satisfying than a burrito?

I thought of this as an important breakthrough. A subterranean world of feeling, now present in her awareness, has brought in the crucial thought that an ability to feel, to cry, or even to want to feel might be more satisfying than eating.

Catherine: It's very hard for me. These feelings are hard for me. I didn’t know I was filled with so much poison. Feeling these feelings is what’s hard for me. I don’t like who I am. But I do like myself for knowing all this.

The capacity to know and name herself is making the emergence of difficult self-knowledge bearable. We know how crucial this particular exchange is in psychological work. Not liking who one is but liking oneself for the ability to know it. The supposed safety of not-knowing is falling away before the power of insight.

Catherine: Last night I dreamed I was trying to warn a school full of small children (preschool) and teachers that a huge tidal wave was coming. Everyone was very busy and distracted and could not focus. Then I was in a meeting where someone was presenting us with his new beautiful chocolate bar. I raised my hand and asked, "What was your aesthetic inspiration for making this chocolate?"

I often dream about tidal waves: massive, blind destruction. But I never thought they were about what I was feeling. Or not feeling.

I think they represent my dread and fear and the sense of overwhelm I have about things. And the chocolate is so funny! That’s what I’ve found in my life, a chocolate bar to keep me safe against a tidal wave.

This is a curious insight because in fact the chocolate bar and its sister-sweets have served to protect her from the tidal wave of feelings that she fears. They’ve worked; they’ve captured her consciousness and shut it off. That’s why chocolate and muffins and brownies have been so hard to give up. Nevertheless, they are now seen for what they are and have become ludicrous.

Catherine: Any choice about my size, about losing weight, is astonishing to me. It lifts a lifetime of discouragement. How do I comfort and reward myself if not with food? (I want to replace compulsive eating with compulsive writing!) My shoulders ache, my eyes are heavy with un-slept sleep. I want to lie down right now in this library and cry.

Wonderful, this wish to replace compulsive eating with compulsive writing. She is in fact a very good writer and will, in a few months, discover that when she sits down to write, the inner turbulence she feels will subside. Not every time, not completely, but often enough to make her aware she has a choice between chocolate and self-expression.

Catherine: It's getting somewhat easier for me. Still many fantasies of treats, but it is balanced out by feelings of excitement and accomplishment. After all, it wasn’t hunger that was the problem. But all this poison inside me. So, now that I know it’s here? Now what? Can I just live with it? I don’t think so. But that’s what I’ve been doing, isn’t it?

The sense that these feelings are unbearable has not gone away, but there is the simultaneous discovery that after all they have been borne. The unbearable has become bearable. If this happens once, it can happen again: “I can’t live with it, but paradoxically I’ve just discovered that I have been living with it.”

Catherine: Clothes that were a bit too tight feel good and are fitting. Joy. Joy. JOY. Having these intense, florid cravings a few times a day. They stop me in my tracks. Today it was my childhood birthday cakes—"bakery cakes" we called them—white cake and frosting with clusters of pink frosting roses, they were even better slightly stale. Everyone wanted a rose on their slice—a mouthful of pure frosting. I practically moaned aloud as I pictured this. Bizarre. I could eat a truckload of that soft, fragrant, sweet white cake and frosting. Yesterday had a craving about thick ice cream shakes full of candy. Amazing that this is there, so deeply. Much much more than a memory. I can right now taste that pink frosting. Like those frosting roses were going to make up for everything that wasn’t so great in our childhood?

I still find it extraordinary that this transformational journey is taking place simply because Catherine isn’t eating in the way she ordinarily would. Through this precise memory, this sensually present image of the pink frosting roses, she has understood the full power of the emotions that she is engaging.

Catherine: I am starkly alone with all these bad feelings. I am hungry and I want to eat. I am sad and I want a treat and a reward. The only thing I can think of is going to bed, not so much as a reward but as a way to live through this. I am going to live through this. I have to live through this.

I admire this knowledge, this clear seeing of these very difficult feelings and the search for something other than food to see her through. Above all I am taken with this resolution: “I am going to live through this. I have to live through this.” It has some of the quality of a hero’s, or more precisely, a heroine’s journey.

Catherine: It gets easier. I am living with medium to mild cravings and longings; not much hunger; and a mounting pleasure in what I have done. It has been so hard and it’s not about hunger. I have been wrestling with an angel and trying to find my meaning in it all. The feelings are so intense: jealousy, grief, rage, cruelty, indifference, helplessness, mad cravings and feeling crushed. It's like living through a hurricane at times. I’m thinking again this is the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. But somehow I’m doing it.

I take this testimony seriously; this probably is the hardest thing she’s ever done in her life, harder than giving birth or separating from her family. The newly discovered feelings write the emotional narrative that had been driven out of awareness but was always lurking, lurking, driving the compulsion to eat.

Catherine: I am at my desired weight. I am really pleased. It's amazing. On the feelings front, I am in lots of turmoil. My temper is short, I am touchy and sad. This is the perfect moment to "assault eat." And I will not. I want to be able to handle my feelings and not use food to soothe them, but will I be able to do that for the rest of my life? Maybe if I ever am told I have 3 months to live I promise myself I will eat only ice cream.

I love the way she can simply say, after a lifetime of struggle with eating: I will not. She has acquired choice where she previously experienced compulsion. This transformation of compulsion into choice may be the single most crucial accomplishment in anyone’s therapeutic work.

Catherine: I want support from you and from my man but I feel vulnerable and raw when I think about sharing all this. But maybe it will be better if I talk to him? Maybe I will feel more recognized for how hard this is for me? I am not sure.

Food has so many purposes, meanings and uses; no wonder it’s so hard to work them all out. You give up food as comfort then it shows up as reward; you recognize it as a consolation, then it appears as an interpersonal shield.

Catherine: I spoke to you on the phone about how I'm feeling today. I'm noticing this kind or foundational feeling (that's the word I keep finding)—as if I have more of a right to be here. I think it has to do with feeling proud of myself for doing the hardest thing I can do. Working on my relationship to food is the oldest, toughest, most entrenched part of me. As we said today—it's not likely for me to find something harder. With my clients, I feel a new sense of balance, of rootedness. If I can deal with this for myself, I can ask them to do the hard things they need to do for themselves too. I can support them to do those things. This makes me feel transparent, more authentic. Like I am not a fraud.

This is a beautiful piece of psychological work. Catherine has discovered that experiences and moods she took at face value are actually the expression of emotions and conflicts. I love to recall that resounding phase: “I will not.” She has been able to substitute choice for compulsion. She has gained a great deal of self-respect by succeeding at something she found really difficult. She feels more confident in the work she does with her clients. She understands the meaning of her dreams, she sees life-patterns emerging, she has achieved much more self-knowledge than she’s had before. I like to think of this as the deconstruction of eating in favor of meaning. To this day, after some thirty years of work with these issues, I’m still astonished that something as seemingly mundane, concrete and literal as eating and food can have this crucial importance. Maybe it’s not surprising if we remind ourselves that our first act after birth and taking our first breath is a reaching out for food.

The Journey Continues

Successfully losing weight is not the end of the story, far from it.

Weight-loss faces anyone who has accomplished it with a number of immediate dilemmas. The body has changed but intimacy is still frightening; being dressed in size 8 clothes doesn’t necessarily secure a job; if one was shy before very likely one is still shy. A lot more social attention may be directed towards a woman who has changed her body’s size but cat calls, whistles, crude remarks, are not necessarily the attention she desires. The magic that weight-loss was supposed to produce as it solved all of life’s problems gets tarnished very fast. And there we still are, the same self in a different body, unless the dieting has helped us to change that self.

There’s still a long, hard road ahead. Learning to eat properly, sticking to the new habits one has acquired, shifting from the food of immediate gratification to food that supports health, these are going to present an ongoing struggle.

Catherine’s is not a typical story. Most people who lose weight on any kind of diet do not make a transformational journey. Nevertheless, many do. My intention in writing this article is to suggest that, as clinicians, we are going to be faced increasingly with the problem of obesity and its effect on health. If we learn to use dieting as a therapeutic tool, as a way of uncovering unconscious impulses and compulsions, weight-loss may be easier to accomplish, and certainly will be more rewarding, as knowledge of the self is acquired at the same time.

In closing, I would like to point out that I am not just speaking about dieting here. Any close examination of one’s eating habits and behaviors can yield the same consciousness of deep feelings, memories and life-patterns. As clinicians, I have the impression that we tend to be overly interested in people’s sexual experience and fantasy, and far less concerned than we ought to be in what food and eating have meant to them. In that sense, there is no contradiction between my work of thirty years ago and my work now: whether an individual chooses to diet or to become conscious of the ways she eats, the shared goal can be self-knowledge. Eating behaviors, as I wrote many years ago, can be the royal road to the unconscious as much as, or maybe even more than dreams, Freud’s favorite candidates for that distinction.

True Refuge: Finding Peace and Freedom in Your Own Awakened Heart

Editors Note: The following is adapted from Tara Brach’s forthcoming book, True Refuge: Finding Peace and Freedom in Your Own Awakened Heart (Bantam, January 22, 2013). 

My earliest memories of being happy are of playing in the ocean. When our family began going to Cape Cod in the summer, the low piney woods, high dunes, and wide sweep of white sand felt like a true home. We spent hours at the beach, diving into the waves, bodysurfing, practicing somersaults underwater. Summer after summer, our house filled with friends and family—and later, with spouses and new children. It was a shared heaven. The smell of the air, the open sky, the ever-inviting sea made room for everything in my life—including whatever difficulties I was carrying in my heart.

Then came the morning not so long ago when two carloads of friends and family members took off for the beach without me. From the girl who had to be pulled from the water at suppertime, I’d become a woman who was no longer able to walk on sand or swim in the ocean. After two decades of mysteriously declining health, I’d finally gotten a diagnosis: “I had a genetic disease with no cure, and the primary treatment was painkillers.” As I sat on the deck of our summer house and watched the cars pull out of the driveway, I felt ripped apart by grief and loneliness. In the midst of my tears, I was aware of a single longing. “Please, please, may I find a way to peace, may I love life no matter what.

This place of peace, connectedness, and inner freedom, even in the face of life’s greatest challenges is what I call “true refuge.” It does not depend on anything outside ourselves—a certain situation, a person, a cure, even a particular mood or emotion. The yearning for such refuge is universal. It is what lies beneath all our wants and fears. We long to know we can handle what’s coming. We want to trust ourselves, to trust this life. We want to live from the fullness of who we are.

RAIN
The pathway to true refuge is presence, the courage to meet even our most challenging inner experiences with a mindful awareness. About twelve years ago, a number of Buddhist teachers began to share a new mindfulness tool that offers in-the-trenches support for working with intense and difficult emotions. Called RAIN (an acronym for the four steps of the process), it can be accessed in almost any place or situation. It directs our attention in a clear, systematic way that cuts through confusion and stress. The steps give us somewhere to turn in a painful moment, and as we call on them more regularly, they strengthen our capacity to come home to our deepest truth. Like the clear sky and clean air after a cooling rain, this mindfulness practice brings a new openness and calm to our daily lives.

I have now taught RAIN to thousands of students, clients, and mental health professionals, and have made it a core practice in my own life. Here are the four steps of RAIN presented in the way I’ve found most helpful:

R    Recognize what is happening
A    Allow life to be just as it is
I      Investigate inner experience with kindness
N    Non-identification

Recognize What is Happening
Recognition is seeing what is true in your inner life. It starts the minute you focus your attention on whatever thoughts, emotions, feelings, or sensations are arising right here and now. As your attention settles and opens, you will discover that some parts of your experience are easier to connect with than others. For example, you might recognize anxiety right away, but if you focus on your worried thoughts, you might not notice the actual sensations of squeezing, pressure, or tightness arising in the body. You can awaken recognition simply by asking yourself: “What is happening inside me right now?” Call on your natural curiosity as you focus inward.

Try to let go of any preconceived ideas and instead listen in a kind, receptive way to your body and heart.

Allow Life to Be Just as it Is
Allowing means “letting be” the thoughts, emotions, feelings, or sensations you discover. You may feel a natural sense of aversion, of wishing that unpleasant feelings would go away, but as you become more willing to be present with “what is,” a different quality of attention will emerge. Allowing is intrinsic to healing, and realizing this can give rise to a conscious intention to “let be.”

Many students I work with support their resolve to “let be” by mentally whispering an encouraging word or phrase. For instance, you might feel the grip of fear and whisper “yes,” or experience the swelling of deep grief and whisper “yes.” You might use the words “this too” or “I consent.”

At first you might feel you’re just putting up with unpleasant emotions or sensations. Or you might say yes to shame and hope that it will magically disappear. In reality, we have to consent again and again. Yet even the first gesture of allowing, simply whispering a phrase like “yes” or “I consent,” begins to soften the harsh edges of your pain. Your entire being is not so rallied in resistance. Offer the phrase gently and patiently, and in time your defenses will relax, and you may feel a physical sense of yielding or opening to waves of experience.

Investigate with Kindness
At times, simply working through the first two steps of RAIN is enough to provide relief and reconnect you with presence. In other cases, however, the simple intention to recognize and allow is not enough. For instance, if you are in the thick of a divorce, about to lose a job, or dealing with a life-threatening illness, you may be easily overwhelmed by intense feelings. Because these feelings are triggered over and over again—you get a phone call from your soon-to-be ex, your bank statement comes, you wake up to pain in the morning—your reactions can become very entrenched. In such situations, you may need to further awaken and strengthen mindful awareness with the I of RAIN.

Investigation means calling on your natural interest—the desire to know truth—and directing a more focused attention to your present experience. Simply pausing to ask, “What is happening inside me?” might initiate recognition, but with investigation you engage in a more active and pointed kind of inquiry. You might ask yourself: “What most wants attention?” “How am I experiencing this in my body?” or “What am I believing?” or “What does this feeling want from me?” You might contact sensations of hollowness or shakiness, and then find a sense of unworthiness and shame buried in these feelings. Unless they are brought into consciousness, these beliefs and emotions will control your experience and perpetuate your identification with a limited, deficient self.

In order for investigation to be healing and freeing, we need to approach our experience with an intimate quality of attention. We need to offer a gentle welcome to whatever surfaces. This is why I use the phrase “Investigate with kindness.” Without this heart energy, investigation cannot penetrate; there is not enough safety and openness for real contact. Imagine that your child comes home in tears after being bullied at school. In order to find out what happened and how your child is feeling, you have to offer a kind, receptive, gentle attention. Bringing that same kindness to your inner life makes inquiry, and ultimately healing, possible.

Non-Identification: Rest in Natural Awareness
The lucid, open, and kind presence evoked in the R, A, and I of RAIN leads to the N: the freedom of non- identification, and the realization of what I call natural awareness or natural presence. Non-identification means that your sense of who you are is not fused with or defined by any limited set of emotions, sensations, or stories. When identification with the small self is loosened, we begin to intuit and live from the openness and love that express our natural awareness. The first three steps of RAIN require some intentional activity. In contrast, the N of RAIN expresses the result: a liberating realization of your natural awareness. There’s nothing to do for this last part of RAIN—realization arises spontaneously, on its own. We simply rest in natural awareness.

Bringing RAIN to Obsessive Thinking

Jim was a law student who had been attending my Wednesday night meditation class for a year and a half. He made an appointment to see me privately, telling me that he had a compelling obsession that he wanted to address. When he arrived at my office he walked quickly to one of the chairs, seated himself, and jumped in. “I don’t know if you work with this kind of thing,” he said, “but I’m having sexual problems and I really need some help.” He stopped abruptly, and blinked nervously. I could feel his courage in pushing himself to be so direct, and I wanted to set him at ease. “How about telling me more,” I said, nodding a bit to encourage him. “If I’m not the best person to help, we can figure out a good next step.”

Jim gave me a grim smile. “Okay, then,” he said, “here’s what’s going on. I’m in a new relationship, one that has some real potential. She . . .Beth . . . has so much that I’m looking for. She’s smart, fun, kind. And very attractive.” Jim paused, as if acknowledging to himself the realness of her appeal. When he continued, his voice was a defeated monotone: “The problem is, I’m afraid I’m going to blow it with her.” “Jim’s fear was of performing poorly during sex. He said the problem had ruined several prior relationships.” He’d obsess longingly about having sex, and he’d obsess anxiously about premature ejaculation. Then, when he started to make love, he’d either climax quickly, or he’d shut down and lose his erection. Ashamed, over a period of weeks or months he’d become increasingly distant from his partner until she reacted with hurt or anger. Then he’d call it quits.

“I don’t want to do this to Beth, or to me,” he stated bitterly. “I hate how I obsess about sex—wanting it, fearing what will happen—it’s my mind that’s ruining my sex life . . . and it’s also screwing with my ability to study.” Sitting back, he shook his head in disgust. “We’ve slept together a couple of times, and the same old thing is happening . . . What to do?” he asked, not really expecting an answer.

I suggested that while we could talk some more, we could also use RAIN to explore what was going on. Jim had heard about RAIN in class but had not yet tried it on his own. “Let’s go for it,” Jim said. “I’ve talked this to death in my own head already.”

When we practiced RAIN together, Jim noted the fear and shame underlying his thoughts, but he quickly shifted from connecting with the feelings to analyzing what was happening. “I’m fixated on the past,” he said scathingly, “and can’t get it that now is now!” Drawing his attention to his harsh attitude toward both the feelings and the obsessing, I suggested that as he continued this investigation on his own, he might intentionally offer some message of acceptance or care to whatever felt painful or unwanted.

This turned out to be a real sticking point for Jim. At our next meeting several weeks later, he confessed that whenever he’d tried to work with RAIN on his own, he could acknowledge his feelings, but he definitely couldn’t allow or accept them. Instead, within moments of recognizing his shame and fear, he’d flip right back again into the stories of past embarrassment and the anticipation of future humiliation. Then he’d judge himself. “No matter what was going on, I was doing something wrong,” he told me.

Finally, after more than a week of this, Jim realized he had lost confidence that RAIN could help him. The crisis came late one evening. Craving relief, he cast about for anything that might distract him and subdue his mental fixation. He focused on his breath, he tried substituting other thoughts, he put on his favorite music, and then he finally picked up a novel. When he realized he wasn’t taking in the words on the page, Jim threw the book aside in desperation. “I knew I was running away,” he told me, “and that it was making things worse.”

Then he finally surrendered to what was happening inside him. “There was a mix of bad porn and dumb soaps dominating my mental screen . . . with nobody controlling the remote,” he recalled. “It was obvious that ‘I’ couldn’t do anything. So something in me stopped fighting and softened.” As the charged thoughts kept playing through his mind, Jim mindfully noted them as “obsessing.” Soon he recognized the familiar undercurrents of fear and shame. But this time, he spoke to them with a gentle inner whisper: “It’s okay, it’s okay.” To his surprise, the fear and shame gave way to a deep loneliness. Again he offered the message “It’s okay,” and he felt his eyes well up with tears. When his mind lurched back into sexual fantasy, and then into judgment, he noted that, and remembered to whisper “It’s okay.” He was accepting both the fantasy and his aversion to it.

Gradually, as he continued to make room for what was arising, Jim realized he was utterly sad. But it was okay. He felt real and, as he put it, “fully present in my skin.” Jim had found his way to the accepting presence that is key to RAIN. I encouraged him to continue to pause whenever he realized he was feeling stuck and reactive, to give himself time to come back and be here, and then inquire with interest into whatever was going on inside him. “Try to be patient,” I told him. “It can take a while to decondition our emotional looping . . . but you can trust it’s happening!”

In the weeks that followed, “Jim discovered that whenever he could stop the war and offer an unconditional presence to his experience, the circling of obsessive thoughts and unpleasant feelings began to dissipate.” The more he mindfully named and accepted his scenarios of future failure, the more he could see them as thoughts, not reality. He didn’t have to believe their story line. And by opening without resistance to the fear in his body, he reconnected with a mindful presence that included the fear, but was not possessed by it. Jim was more at home with himself, but when I asked him about his relationship with Beth, he shifted uncomfortably in his seat and looked down at the floor. “We’ve got a ways to go,” he said, “but I’m working on it.”

Our next session was a month later. Jim told me that the week before, he and Beth had been on the verge of breaking up. On several occasions during the past weeks the sex had been what he called passable. “It worked,” he said flatly. But there were other times when he had avoided being intimate because he felt the old insecurities lurking in the background. Beth too had pulled away a few times after they had begun hugging or kissing. One night after dinner she tried to break the tense silence, asking him if they could talk about what was going on between them. Jim felt himself shut down completely. He gave her a tired look and attributed everything to the pressures of law school. When he left early, saying he needed to study, she didn’t even walk him to the door.

When he was back at home, Jim did some honest soul-searching. He asked himself what really wanted his attention, and the response in his body was immediate. An ache of sadness filled his chest and strangled his throat. “It was a lifelong loneliness . . . and it felt unbearable,” he said. “When I asked that place of loneliness and sadness what it wanted from me, the response was ‘acceptance,’ but that was not all.” Jim waited, listening inwardly as he relived his experience. “It wanted me to be as real with Beth as I was being with myself.” He looked at me with a self-effacing mile and shook his head. “I was scared shitless!” His mind raced forward to the moment when he would confess his shame about falling short sexually. He could see her being polite and kind, but having to mask the pity and disgust she was feeling. “Impossible. Forget it,” he told himself. “I might as well break it off now.”

But when he imagined losing Beth, something cracked open. ““Tara,” he said, looking at me with tears in his eyes, “I had to take the chance.”” He called her on the spot and asked if he could come back over that night. “She agreed . . . it was almost like she was expecting the call.” Initially Beth sat on the other end of the couch, frosty and quiet. But as soon as Jim started talking, she realized that he wasn’t there to break up with her. “Beth shocked me, because she just started crying. That’s when I realized how much our relationship mattered to her.” From that point on, he said, their conversation was nothing like what he had imagined.

The more he told her about his embarrassment and fear, the more he realized that his feelings were in the safest, most caring hands possible. “Beth was hurt that I hadn’t trusted her enough to tell her,” Jim told me. “She had thought I was losing interest . . . we were both afraid of rejection.” Jim was quiet for a few moments as if weighing what he wanted to say next. “That night was the first time I could really say I made love with someone.”

The adage “what we resist, persists” is a deep truth. If we try to fight obsession and the raw emotions that underlie it, we end up reinforcing them. For some people this might lead to acting out in rage or taking drugs. In Jim’s case, it meant being unable to maintain a sexually intimate relationship. Even without acting out, resisting our obsessive thoughts or feelings traps us in the suffering of a small, deficient, separate self.

As Jim was discovering, the best medicine for obsession is taking refuge in the truth of the present moment. We learn to recognize what’s going on, and accept the fact that it’s happening. When we become mindful of a thought as a thought, our sense of identity is not unconsciously fused with its content and felt sense. Thoughts and feelings can come and go without disconnecting us from our natural openness, intelligence, and warmth. For Jim, this homecoming freed him to be intimate with another person. He could contact and accept his own inner life without believing limiting stories about himself. And he could see past the veil of stories about Beth that had been keeping him separate from her. She became an authentic, vulnerable human, and that allowed true loving to flower.

Meeting Our Edge and Softening

The Buddha taught that we spend most of our life like children in a burning house, so entranced by our games that we don’t notice the flames, the crumbling walls, the collapsing foundation, the smoke all around us. The games are our false refuges, our unconscious attempts to trick and control life, to sidestep its inevitable pain. We do not want to face the raw experience of losing the life we love.

“When we distract ourselves from the reality of loss, we also distract ourselves from the beauty, creativity, and mystery of this ever-changing world.” There are times that stepping away from the full pain of loss can be an intelligent and compassionate response—it gives us space and time to regain some energy, perspective, and balance. It may not be a false refuge to keep ourselves occupied after a fresh loss—to bury ourselves in work, books, movies, or to surround ourselves with company. The same is true if we need to withdraw from regular activities and social engagements. But our ways of seeking relief are often neither healthy nor temporary. Instead, they become ongoing attempts to control our experience so that we don’t have to open to our grief. For me, relating wisely to what I call “the controller” was a pivotal step in finding refuge in the face of loss.

I was scheduled to teach a meditation retreat one winter, when my body really crashed. I landed in the hospital, unable to teach, or for that matter to read, walk around, or go to the bathroom without trailing an IV. I remember lying on the hospital bed that first night, unable to sleep. At around 3 a.m., an elderly nurse came in to take my vitals and look at my chart. Seeing me watching her, she leaned over and patted me gently on the shoulder. “Oh dear,” she whispered kindly, “you’re feeling poorly, aren’t you?”

As she walked out tears started streaming down my face. Kindness had opened the door to how vulnerable I felt. How much worse would it get? What if I wasn’t well enough to teach? Should I get off our meditation community’s board? Would I even be able to sit in front of a computer to write? There was nothing about the future I could count on.

Then a verse from Rumi came to mind:

Forget the future . . .
I’d worship someone who could do that . . .
If you can say, “There’s nothing ahead,” there will be nothing there.
The cure for the pain is in the pain.

I began to reflect on this, repeating, “There’s nothing ahead, there’s nothing ahead.” All my ideas about the future receded. In their place was the squeeze of raw fear, the clutching in my heart I had been running from. As I allowed the fear—attended to it, breathed with it—I could feel a deep, cutting grief. “Just be here,” I told myself. “Open to this.” The pain was tugging, tearing at my heart. I sobbed silently (not wanting to disturb my roommate), wracked by surge after surge of grief.

The house was burning and this human self was face-to-face with its fragility, its temporariness, with the inevitability of loss. Yet as my crying subsided, a sense of relief set in. It wasn’t quite peace—I was still afraid of being sick and sidelined from life—but the burden of being the controller, of thinking I could manage the future or fight against loss, was gone for the moment. It was clear that my life was out of my hands.

Those six days in the hospital were a humbling lesson in surrender. A pulse that wouldn’t go above forty-five; doctors who couldn’t figure out what was wrong; food I couldn’t eat; release date extended. Yet what was most amazing to watch was how the controller struggled to remain in charge.

On the third day I was walking around the perimeter of the cardiac unit, jarred by how weak I felt, how uncertain about my future. Then, for the ten thousandth time, my mind lurched forward, anticipating how I might reconfigure my life, what I’d have to cancel, how I could manage this deteriorating body. When I saw that the controller was back in action I returned to my room and wearily collapsed on the raised hospital bed. As I lay there, the circling thoughts collapsed too, and I sank below the surface, into pain.

Tibetan teacher Chögyam Trungpa taught that the essence of a liberating spiritual practice is to “meet our edge and soften.” “My edge was right here: the acute loneliness, the despair about the future, the grip of fear.” I knew I needed to soften, to open. I tried to keep my attention on where the pain was most acute, but the controller was still there, holding back. It was as if I’d fallen into a black hole of grief and died. Gently, tentatively, I started encouraging myself to feel what was there and soften. The more painful the edge of grief was, the more tender my inner voice became. At some point I placed my hand on my heart and said, “Sweetheart, just soften . . . let go, it’s okay.” And as I dropped into that aching hole of grief, I entered a space filled with the tenderness of pure love. It surrounded me, held me, suffused my being. Meeting my edge and softening was a dying into timeless loving presence.

In some ways, the hospital was a great place to practice. So little control, so many hours alone, so many rounds of vulnerability. In the remaining days, I repeated to myself again and again: “Sweetheart, just soften.” Whenever I recognized that I had tightened in anxious planning and worry, I noted it as “my edge.” Then I’d invite myself to soften. I found that kindness made all the difference. When I returned home, the stories and fears about the future were still there. The controller would come and go. But I had deeper trust that I could meet my life with openness, presence and love.

“Each of us has the innate capacity to turn toward true refuge.” We can decide to love life. We can meet our edge and soften. I call this saying yes to life, and often guide students in meditation around this practice. Although we will continue to shut down, we can always start with exactly what we are experiencing and bring kindness to our resistance. We can say yes to our no—to the parts of ourselves that want to ignore, suppress or turn away from pain. As we intentionally deepen our yes, we discover an unconditional acceptance—an open, tender space of awareness—that frees us. We have come home to the refuge of our own awakened heart.

Tara Brach on Mindfulness, Psychotherapy and Awakening

What is Mindfulness

Deb Kory: In this day and age a lot of people are throwing around the term mindfulness. Many therapists—particularly in the Bay Area—describe their approach as “mindfulness-based,” but I have a feeling that most people don’t actually know what that means. What exactly is mindfulness? What does it mean to be a mindfulness-based therapist?
Tara Brach: Mindfulness is a way of paying attention moment-to-moment to what’s happening within and around us without judgment.

Mindfulness is a way of paying attention moment-to-moment to what’s happening within and around us without judgment. So, said differently, when we attend to the moment-to-moment flow of experience, and recognize what’s happening…fully allowing it, not adding judgment or commentary, then we are cultivating a mindful awareness.

DK: So, it’s non-judgmental awareness of the present moment?
TB: That’s another way to say it, yes.
DK: How does that relate to being a mindfulness-based psychotherapist? What does that mean?
TB: It means that intrinsic to the psychotherapy is a valuing of cultivating that kind of attention, and an encouragement of the person you’re working with to cultivate it, and a use of it yourself. It can be sometimes formally woven into the therapy, but sometimes it’s just implicit.

Meditation and Psychotherapy

DK: Where does meditation come in? Is that a necessary part of mindfulness work?
TB: Meditation is the deliberate training of attention. So, when you do a mindfulness meditation, you are deliberately cultivating mindfulness by using strategies to enter the present moment and to let go of judgment and so on.
DK: So, it’s a way to help cultivate awareness of the present moment, and I would imagine that’s especially important for therapists. Does that mean that you actually do meditation in your sessions with people?
TB: Well, some people do, and some people don’t. I’m not in active clinical practice right now. I was, for several decades, seeing clients regularly and then turned to mostly writing and teaching and training therapists in how to weave mindfulness into their practice. So, I’m no longer seeing clients myself, but when I did see clients and when I work with people and do sessions that are related to meditation training—I would often, as part of a process of them getting in touch with what was going on inside them, invite them to pause and just simply use a period of time to quiet the mind, to just notice the changing flow of experience, or maybe to do a particular compassion practice. So, I would weave particular styles of meditation into a therapy session.
DK: Would you suggest that people do it in their day-to-day lives also?
TB: It very much depends on the client that you’re working with. For some people, talking about meditation, suggesting that they meditate, is a set-up for failure and shame. They’ll try to comply because they think, “Oh, Tara is this well known meditation teacher and this is what she’s into, so I should do it,” and so on; whereas it’s not a fit for them at that particular time.

Many therapists already, just by the nature of who they are, have a natural sense of coming into presence and a deep sensitivity to other people, but all of us get help by training.

So there were many people I would see where it would be much more of an implicit part of the process. I’d be encouraging attention to what was going on in the moment, encouraging them to just notice their experience without adding any story—all things that we would associate with meditation practice without saying, “Hey, we’re meditating.” What makes meditation meditation is that it’s an intentional process of paying attention on purpose to the present moment.

DK: And it doesn’t necessarily mean sitting in the lotus pose, right? It’s something that you can do in your daily life walking out in the world?
TB: Absolutely. Meditation is a training of attention that you can do in any posture, at any moment, doing anything that you’re doing on the planet. In fact, for us to have the fruits of meditation, we have to be able to take it out of a compartment or a particular context and have it just be, you know, here’s Deborah and Tara doing a Skype call. So, we’re not leaving meditation behind just because we’re in the midst of an activity.
DK: Thanks, that helps me relax a little bit!
TB: Yeah, it helps to name what we’re doing. I think psychotherapy and meditation are incredibly synergistic and they fill in for each other in some important domains. There are many things that come up when we’re meditating that we really actually don’t have the resilience or the focus to untangle, and a therapist can help us do that. The relationship itself, a trusting respectful relationship, creates a sense of safety that can enable us to unpack things that we might not be able to work on when we’re on our own, especially if there’s trauma.There are increasing numbers of people who are recognizing they have trauma in their bodies, and when they start to meditate and feel like they’re kind of coming close to that, they can get flooded, overwhelmed. In therapy it’s possible for people to establish safety and stability so that they can just begin to put their toe in the water and go back and forth between being with the therapist and touching into their resourcefulness and then dipping a little into the places in their body and their heart where they’re feeling this more traumatic wounding. That kind of a process, if we tried it on our own just in a meditation setting, could potentially re-traumatize us.

DK: So the therapist offers a safe container for the traumatic feelings.
TB: Yes, and the relationship that really enables a person to have the support in untangling. What meditation offers to therapy is a systematic way of training the attention. Where the therapist might help a person focus and stay focused on the present moment when encountering a painful issue, meditation training teaches us to do it on our own. It builds that muscle of being able to come back to this moment, even if it connects us with something we have habitually resisted.Meditation also trains us to, on our own, get the knack of offering ourselves compassion or forgiveness so that we can leave the therapy setting and continue in a kind of transformational way to be with the contents of our own psyche and wake up from limiting beliefs and the painful emotions.

DK: It seems at least as important for the therapist to have that ability to stay present, because there’s a transmission that happens. There is an energetic quality to what we do.
TB: Exactly right. Many therapists already, just by the nature of who they are, have a natural sense of coming into presence and a deep sensitivity to other people, but all of us get help by training. All of us.

The Alive Zone

DK: One of the things I was going to ask you was about how you differentiated your roles as psychotherapist and spiritual teacher, but you’ve said you actually are no longer in clinical practice. What led to that decision to leave that particular role and go more into teaching and writing?
TB: Well, I had done clinical practice for many years and, I think, the place where I felt most needed and most alive is in the process of teaching people how to wake up their hearts and minds, and with that I mean both the practices and the whole inquiry about what really serves freedom. That realm was much more alive for me. For many, many people—most of us I’d say—meditation and therapy are incredibly juicy. They weave together beautifully. So it wasn’t that I was thinking therapy wasn’t an alive zone—it was just that I had put my energies really into the teaching side of things, and I was writing and that took a lot of time.
DK: Aren’t there some areas of the profession that are a little bit deadening though? I’m just about to get licensed myself after an 8-year-long process, and I have been somewhat disheartened at times by the way the profession is organized—its restrictions, the whole 50-minute-hour, the billing and diagnosing, the legal and ethical structures that can at times seem very fear-based and a bit paranoid. I’m curious about what might have felt restricting to you.
TB: Well, the culture does not support the kind of processes of transformation that I’m most excited about, and they take time and immersion. I love retreat settings where people can really give themselves to a very deep attention. I like working with people when there is a longer period of time for people to be together and really have the inquiry and the experience, have the time to unfold. So, as you mentioned, with the slot of a 50-minute-hour, there’s a kind of rigidity that is necessary in some ways, but not so much to my liking.
DK: In my experience—and I live in Berkeley, CA, which is considered progressive and rather “woo woo”—spirituality and religion were not incorporated into our professional training. We aren’t taught to value it except in a kind of multicultural, “let’s be tolerant of other points of view” kind of way. There’s an emphasis on scientific methodology, assessment, empirically validated research, etc., that feels very split off from what you’re talking about. I wonder if that was your experience at all?
TB: Well, what’s alive about therapy is the therapeutic relationship and, like any other two humans connecting, nothing can really flatten that. If you know you want to show up and be with somebody and really know that you’re there to see the goodness in the other person, you’re there to help recognize the patterns that are getting in the way, you’re there to hold a container moving through difficult material—that all is beautiful, and that can happen regardless of the structure around it.That said, I find that I do that more effectively with people in sessions that are more focused on how to bring meditation to difficult experiences. My interest is not so much to do with coping strategies or too much emphasis on the storyline;

I’m more interested in our potential to realize the full truth of who we are beyond the story of a separate self. Most therapy is not geared in that direction. People that end up working with me, or working individually with me doing what I might call spiritual counseling, are kind of a self-selected group of people that are interested in a more transpersonal kind of work–not in any way to ignore the issues of the personal self, but to have the personal be a portal to the universal, and an expression of our awake heart and awareness.

DK: Where did you go to get your degree in clinical psychology?
TB: I did my undergraduate work at Clarke University, and I did my graduate degree at Fielding Institute, which is out on the West Coast in Santa Barbara.
DK: What was your plan at the time?
TB: Well, even then—I had lived in an ashram for 10 years—I was approaching psychotherapy in a very holistic way. I was doing yoga, teaching yoga, and weaving yoga and meditation into any work I did with people. So I’ve always been blending East and West together, right from the get-go.My plan was to keep doing this, to be able to have a degree so I could afford to have this as a profession. I have a fascination with the psyche. I mean, I’m totally interested in how we create limiting realities about ourselves, and our capacity to see beyond the veil to the vastness and mystery of who we are. So my plan was just to keep on weaving these worlds together in whatever way would be most alive.

The Trance of Bad Personhood

DK: I read somewhere that you wrote your dissertation on eating disorders?
TB: Yeah. I had struggled with an eating disorder for a good number of years—probably 5 years—and meditation was really helpful; basically, it taught me how to pause. There’s a wonderful saying that between the stimulus and the response there is a space, and in that space is our power and our freedom. That’s Viktor Frankl. So the practice of meditation taught me how to pause and open mindfully to the space so that there’d be a craving or fear, but there would be some space between that and action.It also taught me a lot about self-compassion. I found that addiction is fueled by blaming ourselves. In Buddhism, they call it “the second arrow.”

The first arrow is the craving or the fear or whatever; the second arrow is, “I’m a bad person for having these feelings or doing these behaviors.” The “bad person” arrow actually locks us into the very behaviors that are causing suffering. So, in both Radical Acceptance and True Refuge, I emphasize a lot about how to wake up from that trance of bad personhood.

DK: One of the things I like about your work is that it’s very integrative. I get a sense that you’re really open to cognitive science, to philosophy, to various wisdom traditions, to 12-step programs—essentially to whatever seems to work for people. As someone who has benefited a great deal from the twelve-step model, I’m also well aware that it doesn’t work for everyone and that we have to have a big tool box available to help clients—particularly those struggling with powerful addictions. What’s your approach when working with addicts?
TB: Well, my inquiry is always, what have you been exploring and what helps? Humans are really resourceful, so I always try to find out what works for you. Of course, there are so many different approaches. I did my dissertation on binge-eating and meditation practice, but it became very clear to me that without having a relational component, without having a group and people to support you, nothing would hold. Whether it’s a 12-step group or in the Buddhist communities we have the kalyana mitta groups, or spiritual friends groups—the great gift is that we really get that suffering is universal, that we’re not alone in it, that it’s not so personal, that there’s hope, there are ways that we wake up out of it, and that we’re there for each other. We’re kind of in it together.
If there’s any medicine in the whole world, it’s that sense of belonging, of connection with others.I think that on the spiritual path, meditation—learning to be here in the present moment—is critical; but equally essential and interdependent is the domain of sangha, or community. We need to discover who we are in relationship with others. Whether it is addiction or any other form of suffering, a mindful relationship with our inner life and with each other is what de-conditions the contracted beliefs, feelings and resultant behaviors.

What gives hope is described in recent science as neuroplasticity. The patterns in our mind that sustain suffering can be transformed. And how we pay attention is the key agent. A kind and lucid attention untangles the tangles!

Will This Serve?

DK: In your work, you really make a concerted effort to share your own fallibility, and I think that for psychotherapists that’s a really tough one. I feel quite committed to that in my own practice, and yet I notice that I’m often pulled to frame things as, “long, long ago, when I was sick,” you know? But I’m not that old, so it couldn’t have been that long ago.
TB: Right…as long as there’s a 10-year gap between now and when I was really confused…
DK: Exactly. So it’s something I really try to work on, because I know in my own experiences as a client in therapy and in supervision, that I feel safest and most connected when people are willing to share with me not just that they were screwed up in the past, but that they’re still screwed up, because we all are.
TB: Yeah, the vulnerability, the fear, the shame—it all continues to rise throughout life. I’ve made that kind of vulnerable sharing a deliberate practice for a few reasons. One is, it’s the truth. I mean, there’s no way there’s not going to be projection when you’re a teacher or a therapist, but I really feel like mindfully sharing about our personal foibles serves. I regularly get caught up in self-centered thoughts, impatience, irritability, anxiety, the whole neurotic range. And…the truth is that I’ve been blessed to have increasing freedom, you know? That pain and difficulty and stuff keeps arising, but so does a mindful, compassionate way of relating to what’s happening. The result is there’s less and less of a sense that it’s happening to a self or caused by a self. I know how valuable it is for people to see that as a therapist or as a teacher that you have a certain amount of happiness or freedom in your life and that you’re still working on things. It gives hope.
DK: Yes, it’s a fine balance.
TB: It’s a fine balance. I think the inquiry is always, will this serve? We’re not doing it to unload; we’re not doing it to be a certain kind of person. It’s just, will this serve? But, I have found for myself that leaning in that direction is usually beneficial.

What We Talk About When We Talk About Love

DK: You also talk a lot about love. I felt very clearly that I came into the profession in order to practice love—to practice it and to practice it, learn about it. But in my training, I literally never heard the word uttered. I made a point to bring it into discussions at school and at training sites, but in my experience it was a lot easier for people to talk about hate—“hate in the counter-transference” and love as just “positive countertransference.” Obviously there have been terrible abuses of power by therapists in the name of love, but it seems like the response has been an over-correction, and has left us without a proper vocabulary for what we are actually doing.
TB: Well, as you were speaking, I was thinking that it’s beginning to change. That’s the good news, Deborah. I mean, there is so much research now on self-compassion and compassion for others. There are universities like Stanford, which has a whole institute—The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education (CCARE)—dedicated to compassion studies. Compassion is love when we experience another person’s vulnerability or suffering. Love, in terms of loving-kindness, is described as love when we see the goodness in what we cherish. Gratitude and appreciation and love and beauty are all words and places, domains of attention that are actually becoming more common in the psychotherapeutic community.And I feel like it’s really important that we consciously take this one on. For instance, I have made a point of talking about prayer and talking about calling on the beloved and calling on loving presence when I feel very, very separate…really reaching out to that which feels like a source of loving presence and then discovering it wasn’t outside of me, but I first have to go through the motions. So it starts with a dualistic sense, and then it ends up revealing unity. I’ve made a point of talking about that when I’m doing keynotes at professional conferences, because I really want there to be an increasing acceptance and comfort with the language of prayer.

How could it be that we all have these longings? I mean, every one of us longs to belong. Every one of us longs for refuge. We long for feeling embraced. We long to feel bathed in love. We long to touch peace.

That’s prayer. That longing, when conscious and expressed, is the fullness of prayer, and for us to acknowledge the poignancy of it and invite people to recognize it and have it arise from a depth of sincerity, actually is a very powerful part of healing. Prayer is a powerful part of healing. It helps us step out of a small and separate ego kind of sensibility, and recognize a larger belonging.

So I feel like we’re at a very juicy kind of era in psychotherapy where more and more of the profession is opening itself to intentional training and training in self-compassion. It has definitely opened its doors to that. It’s opened the doors to mindfulness in a big way, and when you open those doors, people become more embodied and there’s more creativity, more possibility.

The Squeeze

DK: The title of your new book is True Refuge, and it speaks to, I think, both the longing and the possibility for refuge inside of ourselves that we create in relation to others, as part of the human community. What’s the relationship between this new book and your first book, Radical Acceptance?
TB: Well, I wrote Radical Acceptance because I was aware in my own life and with most everybody I connected with that probably the deepest, most-pervasive suffering is that feeling that something is wrong with me.I called it the “trance of unworthiness,” because most people I know get it that they judge themselves too much and they’re down on themselves, but are not aware of how many moments of their life that assumption of falling short is in some way constricting their behaviors and stopping them from being spontaneous. You know, it could be that here we are doing this interview, but there’s some nagging sense of, “Oh, I should be doing this better,” and how that in some way blocks the heart from being as open and tender. It’s just, we’re not aware of how many parts of our life are squeezed by a sense of deficiency.

I’ve found that until we are aware of that squeeze, we’re caught in the trance. So I wrote the book because I wanted to say, “hey guys, we’re all going around feeling bad about ourselves,” and explore how practices of freedom—cultivating a mindful awareness, cultivating compassion, cultivating a forgiving heart, learning to turn towards awareness itself to begin to recognize its formless presence that’s always here—help to dissolve the trance and reveal who we are. This vastness and this mystery is looking through our eyes right now, even though we’re just looking at a computer screen—there’s this sentience and it’s so cool. So the purpose of Radical Acceptance was to very much draw attention to that trance.

DK: And what was the purpose of writing True Refuge?
TB: In True Refuge, I enlarged the scope because in addition to unworthiness, our basic trance of separateness gives us a very profound sense of uncertainty and loss. I think it becomes more vivid as we age that, “okay, these bodies go, everyone we love goes, these minds go.” Right now, for example, I’m watching my mother lose her memory as dementia is setting in. Just watching that happen is painful and sad.But what directly motivated me to write True Refuge was a period of about 8 years of a steady decline in physical health. There was a time that I had no idea whether I’d regain any of my capacities I had lost. I have a genetic disease that affects my connective tissue, so I had to give up running, give up biking, and give up a lot of the recreational activities I most love. I remember at one point being completely filled with grief at the loss and sensing this deep longing, a very poignant longing, to love no matter what. Really I just wanted to find some refuge, some sense of peace and okay-ness, openheartedness, in the midst of whatever, including dying. That feels important to me. So True Refuge was approaching a broader domain: How do we find an inner sanctuary of peace in the midst of all the different ways that life comes and goes? How do we come home to that?

DK: When the pain of life brings you to your knees…
TB: Exactly. I remember being very struck by William James, who wrote that “all religions start with the cry, ‘help.’” Somehow deep in our psyches there is always some part of us that’s going, “Okay, how am I going to deal with this life? How am I going to deal with what’s around the corner?” What happens for most people—and this is kind of the way I organized True Refuge—is that we develop strategies to try to navigate life that often don’t work. I call these false refuges. This is in all the wisdom traditions. We know that the grasping and the resisting and the overeating and the over-consuming and the distracting ourselves and the proving ourselves and the overachieving… just don’t create that sanctuary of safety and peace and well-being. It just doesn’t work.So in the book I talk about our false refuges and then explore what are really three archetypal gateways to homecoming. You can find them in all the different world religions including Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and it’s most clear for me through Buddhism. These three gateways are: truth (arising from mindfulness of the present moment), love and awareness. In Buddhism these are ordered differently and called Buddha (awareness), Dharma (truth) and sangha (love).

So the architecture of the book is based on that, and I used a lot of stories—my own stories, and other people’s stories—to address the pain of feeling deficient, but a lot of other struggles also.

No Mud, No Lotus

DK: The parts of True Refuge that were most moving to me were the descriptions of your struggle with your disease, because there is just no getting around how painful and difficult that must be. You really share your cry for help and the fact that you’ve been able to make some peace with it is both awe-inspiring and hopeful, since all of us, as you say, will face our own physical demise. But it does seem like living with chronic pain that severely limits your mobility is one of the deeper sorts of spiritual challenges that we face. Do you feel grateful for what it’s taught you?
TB: Yeah, I do. You know, I’ve heard many, many people say from the cancer diagnosis or the heart wrenching divorce or whatever it is that they wouldn’t trade it for the world. I feel the same way. “No mud, no lotus,” as the Buddhist saying goes. We wake up through the circumstances of our life, and the gift is that when it gets really hard you have to dig very, very deep into your being to find some sense of where love and peace and freedom are. Our experience of inner freedom is not reliable if it is hitched to life being a certain way. If I’m dependent on my body being able to run to feel good, I’m going to be in trouble. I’m actually better than I was before physically, but there were times when I couldn’t leave my house. I couldn’t do much of anything, and there was a growing capacity to come into a beingness and an openheartedness that allowed me to feel just as alive and present and happy as if I could have been romping around outside and running through the hills.I think of that as freedom. I think of freedom as our capacity to be openhearted and awake and have some spaciousness in the midst of whatever is unfolding. The gift of it is that we start to trust who we really are. There’s a sense of trust in the awareness that is here, the tenderness of our heart, the wakeful openness of our being. This becomes increasingly familiar, rather than the identify of a self-character that is able to do this and doesn’t do that and is great or terrible at such and such. We are living from a sense of what we are that can’t be grasped by words or concepts, but can be realized and wholeheartedly lived.

So, that is the fruit of True Refuge—that our true refuge is our true nature. Our true refuge is our true nature. It’s none other. The three gateways are just different energetic expressions of true nature.

DK: How did getting a degenerative chronic pain disease change your work with people?
TB: Before this happened, I was pretty much an athletic jock type that had some vanity around my fitness. And I’ve emerged much more humble, and also much more compassionate towards others. I know what loss is. There’s something I sometimes call the “community of loss,” where each of us has lost something deeply important—whether we’ve lost a partner, or lost a job, or lost our health, our home. I just got back from teaching a weekend at Kripalu Retreat Center in Western Massachusetts, and a number of people there had been hit by hurricane Sandy. One woman was telling me what it was like to have her home totally demolished. The community of loss. The more awake we are to realizing we’re part of it, the more we’re holding hands with others, really the more compassionate a world we have.

Awakening to the World’s Suffering

DK: Speaking of which, I know that political activism has been a big part of your work. You bring issues of social justice into your teachings. One of the things that comes to mind is a talk that you gave about racism within your spiritual community—not overt racism, but a more subtle but nonetheless insidious kind of racism that we find just about everywhere in our culture. It was painful for you to be made aware of it and you shared it as a way to bring awareness into your community. I have also appreciated the way that you struggle with modern politics in your work—trying to remain open-hearted but still having a coherent political voice. How important is it in the work that you’re doing? How has that changed over time?
TB: Well, it only becomes increasingly clear to me that the awakening of our heart and mind means awakening to our belonging to the world and that there’s not a spiritual path that can be extricated or isolated from that belonging. This means that not speaking is in fact making a statement. Our thoughts, our speech, and our actions in terms of the broader community completely matter. They matter. They express our awakeness and then they affect what happens in the world.It feels essential that those who value being spiritually awake recognize that that includes being engaged consciously in our larger world, wherever it is that we feel particularly drawn.

We have to recognize that our earth is dying, that denial is the biggest danger in the world for our planet. We have to be willing to be touched by the suffering of the earth, the air, the creatures that are going extinct, to be touched by the pain that people experience when they’ve been discriminated against and shamed and isolated in different ways, marginalized in our culture—that’s part of being awake and open in the world.

DK: What kind of social or political activism are you currently involved in?
TB: I try to respond to what goes on in our own community, and our community is involved with a number of domains. There are some green activities that are, I think, pretty cool. We’re fumbling around on the diversity front, sometimes in a painful way. Like most communities that have a majority of white people, the big question is how to wake up and be more responsive to the racism that is just naturally there. It’s just part of the culture. I’m also very much supporting getting the mindfulness curriculum and mindfulness in schools around here. And we have a lot of activity around teaching in prisons. So the best I can do as a leader in the Washington area is to support those kinds of activities. As you can tell, I do feel passionately that it’s not meant to be just on the cushion.
DK: So it’s not separate at all—any of it.
TB: Nothing is separate. We belong to this world, and it’s part of the way we’re trying to bring compassion to these bodies and hearts and minds. We need to bring compassion to those that are suffering from an unjust society, and we need to bring compassion to the earth.
DK: Is there a place for anger in this struggle?
TB: Absolutely. We all are wired to have a range of emotions that are just life energies, and to not regard them as wrong or unspiritual is really important, to respect them. They all have an intelligent message, we wouldn’t have been rigged with them if they didn’t. Our work is to learn how to be in relationship with them in a way where we can listen, where we can embrace the life energy and not get identified with the storyline they may elicit.What happens with anger is we can get fixated on, “You did something wrong to me.” When this happens, the practice is, instead of believing the story, to instead see if we can honor the energy and feel what’s going on inside us.

This usually involves bringing real kindness and mindfulness to the feeling of being hurt, the feeling of vulnerability, the feeling of fear, but not buy into the storyline of, “you’re bad and I need to get you back.” Because if we can pay attention to the message of anger—“there’s some threat, I need to take care of it”—and feel where we feel threatened inside, we’ll reconnect with the natural intelligence and compassion of our own heart-minds, and then respond with more wisdom. So go ahead and create boundaries, go ahead and speak your truth, but from a place of presence and intelligence and kindness, not from a burst of reactivity.

DK: Which takes a lot of practice over a lot of time.
TB: Huge practice, because we’re basically moving against our more primal reflexive reactivity, and learning to cultivate a response from the more recently evolved part of our brain. Our conditioning is to have an impulse arise and act out of it, so as to release the tension and feel soothed. It’s coming back to that quote from Victor Frankl. This is saying, “Pause….First come home to the experience that is here and pay attention.” That is the heart of the training, and it takes practice. In True Refuge, I use the acronym RAIN, and I’ve added some different dimensions than are usually emphasized in much of the Buddhist teachings. It’s a really simple and powerful handle to, instead of react, come into a relationship with what’s going on in a much more wise and balanced way.

RAIN

DK: Can you briefly go through what you mean by RAIN?
TB: Sure. RAIN is an acronym to support us in cultivating mindful awareness, and the basic elements of mindfulness are to recognize what’s going on in the moment and to allow it. That’s the core of RAIN: to Recognize and Allow. What happens often is we’ve got a tangle going on—let’s say it’s anger. We’ve got a storyline of the anger, and we’ve got the feelings, and we’re wanting to do something, and it’s all jumbled up. What we’re doing with RAIN is saying, “Okay, I Recognize anger is here and I Allow it.”But it’s still feeling very sticky and very demanding of attention. So we deepen attention with the “I”—Investigate. But it has to be a compassionate investigation because if we investigate as a detached observer, or we investigate and there is some judgment and aversion, then the more vulnerable places within us will not reveal themselves to the investigation. For investigation to unfold to truth, we need to bring real compassion. I sometimes think of it as the rain of compassion or self-compassion, because we really need that quality.

DK: Yeah, it’s so easy to bring a subtle kind of judgment into that kind of investigation. Like, “why do I always trip out on this?” or “here’s my damn depression again.”
TB: If you think of a child who’s upset and you want to find out what’s going on, if there’s not a sense of caring, if you just ask questions, it’s not going to work. So we begin to investigate within ourselves, ”Okay, anger. What am I believing right now?” If we ask that question, it can easily veer off into concepts. But the more we bring a gentle presence, a caring presence, a clear presence to the actual experience of what’s going on, the more there is a shift in a sense of our identity. If you’re very, very present with the anger, you’re no longer the angry person believing in the story; you’re the presence that’s present. You are the awareness that’s noticing. That shift in identity is the whole key to the transformation that Buddha talked about in awakening to freedom. And the body is the major domain of investigating—the throat, the chest, and the belly. Just really arrive and sense, “how is this experience playing out through this body?”After the “I” of RAIN gives us that presence, the “N” is “Non-identification.” Another way to say it is the “N” is “Natural awareness.” We are re-embodying or reestablished in our natural, vast, compassionate awareness.

DK: So, it’s really the opposite of dissociating?
TB: Exactly right. Neither dissociating nor getting possessed. When we’re identified with an experience, either it grabs us and we become the angry person, or we disassociate and become kind of numb and cerebral. Either one of those is, in a way, moving away from the reality of the present moment. RAIN is the way to come into the present moment. We can bring it into our relationships so that when there is conflict with another person, or with another country, or with some “other” that we consider kind of unreal or bad, if we’re able to first bring RAIN inwardly and just sense what we’re feeling and be with that presence and open up our sense of identity, we can then look at another person with the possibility of inquiry. What is really going on here? What is the unmet need? What is your vulnerability? What are the fears or hurts that might have led you to that behavior? We get to see through the eyes of wisdom. RAIN, or more broadly speaking this capacity for mindful awareness, is actually the grounds of compassion for ourselves and each other. It gives us a chance to really sense who we are beyond the mask.
DK: Thanks so much. It has been a joy to talk with you.
TB: Thank you.

Mark Epstein on Mindfulness and Psychotherapy

Buddhism and Psychotherapy

David Bullard: Mark, I am very grateful and thankful that you found the time for this interview in the midst of a wonderful three-day workshop on Buddhism and Psychotherapy, which you are presenting in tandem with Tenzin Robert Thurman at Menla Mountain Institute. I’ve probably done this interview 40 times in the last couple of weeks, but this will be different because you are actually here this time! In preparation, I’ve considered a series of questions which led into more questions, and have already gotten a huge gift from the anticipation of having this time together. On the other hand, this interview should probably be organic and free-form, and grow from our being in the present rather than from a pre-selected list of questions.
Mark Epstein: Well, it’s great that you’ve been thinking about it so much, and to have really thoughtful questions formed could be very helpful.
DB: It could be, and that’s my desire. You’ve written a lot about the nature of desire and disappointment—we’ll have to see which this will be!
ME: Trust in your desire. We’ll get into that.
DB: Let’s begin with a brief review of your extensive writings on the integration of Buddhism and psychotherapy from psychoanalytic and psychodynamic perspectives, which include wonderful examples of your own process and journey. You have published five very influential books, as well as many articles and chapters; you have taught at NYU and have participated in many workshops, and, of course, continue your private practice. In Open to Desire: The Truth About What the Buddha Taught, your acknowledgement section lists 60 people, so you are certainly well connected in your professional and personal lives. I personally have also enjoyed your chapter “From Eros to Enlightenment” in Brilliant Sanity: Buddhist Approaches to Psychotherapy. So shall we begin the interview with your first exposure to Buddhist teachers and how they were helpful to you?

Buddhist and Psychotherapy Teachers

ME: I came to my first Buddhist teachers after a very short experience with psychotherapy; so those first encounters were framed with a beginning attempt to seek therapeutic help for myself at the student health services at Harvard, where I was given a practitioner of short-term psychodynamic psychotherapy. This therapist met me three times and told me not to worry—my anxieties were just a result of my Oedipal complex and once I understood that, I would be fine.I went from there to a Buddhist summer camp in Boulder, Colorado where I met my first Buddhist teachers: Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield. They taught me mindfulness meditation, in which I learned how to actually be physically with my emotional experience. They refused to name it or to encourage me to name it, but really taught me how to dig down into it and know it, with less fear. So that was the first great gift that I got from Buddhism.

DB: Can you contrast that with any particular gifts received from your psychotherapy teachers and mentors?
ME: The insights from my psychotherapy teachers were many but came later, after, to my dismay, I realized that what I was learning from Buddhism still left me sometimes struggling, especially in my relational life. So I went back to psychotherapy informed by Buddhism, and then was touched by how deftly certain of my therapists worked with my relational self in the actual interactions with them in the moment. It seemed very Buddhist to me, only active and engaged. I have examples I have written about in my books, that crystallize for me what I think I learned from these interactions.In one, a therapist suddenly interrupted me as I was clumsily trying to explain what I wanted to get out of therapy, and asked me if I was aware of how I was sitting. I found this annoying. What was wrong with the way I was sitting? But he pointed out that I was sitting on the edge of my seat. “You give yourself no support,” he said.

In another, a therapist waited patiently for me to begin a session. I sat there wide-eyed, staring at him but with nothing to say. I was remembering how a spiritual teacher of mine, Ram Dass, used to begin our private sessions that way. “Blink!” my therapist broke in. He made me see how my efforts to prolong contact with him actually diminished it, that when you stare too long at someone or something, you actually lose touch with it. He was showing me something about the rhythm of intimacy and the pull of addiction.

In a third example, I was speaking to my therapist about how ‘”part of me” was angry and “part of me” understood that I didn’t need to be angry. He looked at me with barely disguised disdain and said, “Mark, you don’t have parts.” This has served as a koan for me over the years. “I don’t have parts? What am I, then?”

DB: Could you tell us what particular thoughts you like to convey both to beginning students and experienced therapists, eager to learn or deepen their understanding of the art and science of psychotherapy through Buddhist psychology?
ME: A lot of therapists come to me with an interest in how to use Buddhist psychology to enhance their work. And often they are thinking much more concretely about “should I teach my patients to meditate,” “how can I use Buddhist wisdom to help my patients feel better and help them resolve their neuroses,” etc. I always feel that the most important way Buddhism can impact psychotherapy is by helping the therapist.
What Buddhism teaches very practically is a psychotherapeutic attitude: how to deploy psychotherapeutic attention both intrapsychically within the self and as well as interpersonally. When you are training as a psychotherapist you don’t necessarily get specific help in how to deploy that kind of attention, but Buddhism is all about that. So I try to turn it back: “Here, this is for you.” If you get something from it, maybe you will be able to make it come alive for your patients.

Evidence-Based Buddhism?

DB: I’m smiling because I know that is your emphasis, in an era that is technique-oriented or theory-driven. Which brings us to the current hot topics of “evidence-based psychotherapy” and “empirically supported psychotherapy.” It is being greatly debated with some divisiveness in psychology organizations. Can you offer us your perspective on that?
ME: I think there is a huge need to increase the cost-effective delivery of health care and to make psychotherapy understandable to the general population in terms of weighing the economic costs. In terms of doing research in what is therapeutic and isn’t, I completely appreciate that way of thinking. And yet there is something to be said for the old-fashioned, psychoanalytic “not knowing” and groping around blindly in the unconscious—being able as a therapist to create an interpersonal field in which one doesn’t know what will emerge, and yet trusting that what does emerge will potentially be therapeutic. Whether that turns out to be cost-effective or not, or operationalizable or not, we don’t know yet, but is certainly worth the study.
DB: But are there other kinds of evidence, from the accumulation of thousands of years of Buddhist teachings that have survived, together with the Buddha’s injunction that each person must explore deeply the applicability of the teachings, rather than to accept them on faith? Is this a kind of empiricism, a kind of “single case study” that Buddhism encourages?
ME: I think one has to be careful with this kind of reasoning. Just because something has survived for centuries doesn’t necessarily make it right. War has survived, for example. People thought the earth was flat for longer than they’ve accepted it being round. Buddhism has cultivated an introspective method over the centuries. It could just be a sophisticated kind of brainwashing. The scientific method is certainly capable of holding it up for study. That is already starting to happen.
DB: Yes, as we see from the labs of Richard Davidson and of Dan Siegel, among others, increasing our understanding of the impact of meditation on the brain. Many exciting issues are emerging from this collaboration between Buddhist psychology and neuroscience.In another vein, therapist Michael Yapko recently said that he counted over 400 forms of psychotherapy. The vast majority of these, even if they are helpful, won’t be studied or validated by research. So what is psychotherapy?

ME: I think there is both science and method to successful psychotherapy, depending on the character structure and issues of the person needing psychotherapy. There are clearly different methodologies that are more or less effective, which a trained therapist will have some understanding of. And how these methodologies are deployed matters a lot—the fostering of a relationship that is beneficial or potentially destructive, or that could do nothing. So I think there is a lot to learn from all of the 400 schools—they probably all have something to teach. What I remember being impressed by, in terms of the research of the efficacy for a rather healthy population, is that the type of psychotherapy is less important than the relationship which ends up being fostered between the patient and therapist. And the quality of that relationship probably contains much of whatever it is that is healing in any kind of therapy. How to define that quality, other than using worlds like “love,” and so on, I think will prove difficult, but clearly people know when there is a positive or trusting relationship, and when there isn’t.

Safety in Psychotherapy

DB: You’ve expanded a lot on Winnicott’s idea of safety as a primary issue in psychotherapy.
ME: At least the possibility of safety. One finds in psychotherapy, even working with someone where there is a positive and good relationship, that there are things that people still don’t want to talk about or don’t feel safe talking about, that might emerge after many, many years into a given treatment. So even safety is a relative concept.
DB: So safety allows you to get to the edge of what they can talk about.
ME: There is always an edge to where someone feels safe, even with a therapist with whom one feels safe.
DB: No absolute safety.
ME: Yes, no absolute safety, and some fear, some trepidation, some insecurity. Pushing into that, playing with the edge of that, is something that can happen in a working psychotherapy that keeps it alive and vital and interesting.In talking about Winnicottian issues like safety, holding environment and good-enough mothering and so on, it’s easy to conceptualize the therapist’s role as being nothing but facilitating—psychotherapy as being primarily an empathic relating. But I think that that misses what the therapeutic task actually is. Therapists, in my view, have to be very clearly themselves, to be able to come from an authentically individualized place so that they are not just emoting or communing or sympathizing, not just providing a field. They have to be really there, and at the same time have to be able to not be so present that they are filling a space too much or intruding. Winnicott is excellent about talking about the middle ground or balance between impinging or intruding and abandoning. It’s easy to misinterpret the kind of presence that Winnicott encourages as being more selfless than a good therapist has to be. Therapists have to be very clear about who they are, and be able to use their own responses and opinions, their own techniques and methods.

At the same time, a therapist has to primarily be able to wait, and wait, and wait, and wait, and not be so anxious to display his or her intelligence or understanding or insights into what they think is going on, and to trust that there will be a time when it is obvious that what needs to be said can be said.

DB: In being authentic in the way I think you are speaking, the therapist doesn’t have to be perfect, and a client or patient’s reacting to the therapist’s imperfection can be a very deep part of the therapy work, providing for relational depth. For some, it can be very important to be able to challenge one’s therapist.
ME: Yes. Well, perfection is impossible, so one will always be failing one’s patients. But if you fail too much you do them no service, so there is a balance there, too. Using the word “authentic,” however, has become a cliché—the authentic therapist being too authentic becomes inauthentic. It is their image of what an authentic person should be.

DB: Maybe you are also speaking along the lines of a quote from Jung, who was asked how one learns to become a great therapist. My recollection of his comment is: “Go and read everything written about the art and science of psychotherapy, but then forget it all before you first peer into the human soul.
ME: We should be able to have them and not have them at the same time. I’m not sure you have to learn them and forget them. I think once you learn them they are there, but you don’t have to be restricted by them. You can use them when you need them.

Should We Desire To Have Desire?

DB: I like your modification of my paraphrase! This might be a good time to segue into issues you discussed in your book, Open to Desire. Would you like to start with the story of Nasrudin eating the peppers?
ME: I wrote the book about desire because in Buddhism, desire has a bad name. One of the shortcuts in understanding the Four Noble Truths is that the First Noble Truth is the truth of suffering—that all experience, even pleasurable experience, has a hint of unsatisfactoriness or dukkha or suffering, because we are conscious of its transience. The Second Noble Truth, the cause of suffering, is sometimes given as desire. A deeper reading of the word the Buddha used translates better as thirst, craving or clinging, but we confuse our idea of desire with the Buddha’s notion of clinging. So I think that a lot of confusion has arisen about desire. Is desire okay? Is it evil? Is it bad? Is it wrong? My sense is that even within a Buddhist framework there is desire—the desire for liberation, the desire for enlightenment. That is obviously a desire. The Buddha’s solution to the predicament of suffering wasn’t to stamp out desire per se. It was to not cling to it, or to not cling to the object of it, more to the point.I remember a phrase that came from an Indian teacher: “It’s not desire that’s the problem, it’s that your desires are too small.” I use that as a jumping-off place because the problems many people have with desire are that their desires are too small. They are locked into the seeking of pleasures that once provided a huge relief but that now, over time, repeatedly provide only a shadow of the relief that they once did. To our minds, they seem to be the only sources of relief. The Buddhist teachings are all about opening up the seeking to find other kinds of pleasure.

The story that you were referring to is where Nasrudin, who is a kind of amalgam of wise man and fool, is sitting in the marketplace eating handfuls of hot, red chili peppers and tears are weeping from his eyes. His friends come to him and they ask, “What’s with you? Why are you always eating peppers that are making you sick?” And he says, “Oh, I’m looking for a sweet one!” So the small reading of the story is that desire is the source of suffering, “so why don’t you just stop eating the peppers?”—the idea that stopping acting on desire will stop suffering. The more nuanced reading of the story is that Nasrudin, in the guise of the fool, is demonstrating the potential of desire to ultimately find something sweet for his soul. I’m not sure which reading is right.

Disappointment and Relationship

DB: I came across a quote from Soren Kierkegaard you may know from the Western philosophical tradition: “Perfect love means to love the one through whom one becomes unhappy.”Can you share some thoughts about relationship and desire, the real world of living in a relationship, and disappointments?

ME: Disappointment in love relationship is often taken as the exit door, especially in our culture where it’s become more acceptable to actually exit. In many cases, that might be the right thing to do. And it’s impossible even for a therapist to be able to say for any given person. Often as therapists we are put in the position of “should I stay or should I go,” but that is a tough call, even for the individual in the relationship. But certainly from the Buddhist perspective, and I think from a psychodynamic perspective also, there is no love without disappointment. Even in what appears to be a true or perfect love, the idea that one could rest forever in that state, and that it would last unchangingly, clearly that is too much to ask of love. So then the question arises: Should we take disappointments as a defeat, or take them as an obvious shadow of love? A lot of that is in the attitude and the ability of both partners to continually reconnect without necessarily solving those aspects of a relationship that lead to frustration, disappointment or anger. I think there is something to be learned from both the Buddhist side and the psychoanalytic side. Instinctively, not too many people know how to do that easily.
DB: At last year’s workshop on Integrating Buddhism and Psychotherapy, Columbia University Professor and Buddhist scholar Dr. Robert Thurman reported that his wife once advised him: “Bob, you are going to disappoint people, so you might as well do it sooner rather than later.” I think that embodied a lot of wisdom! A week after Bob said that, a colleague of mine who is a longtime Zen priest and psychotherapist reminded me that disappointment is a major Zen teaching.
ME: In relation to this question I always read Winnicott, who talks so beautifully about both how important it is for a mother to be able to fail her child, and how normal it is for children to hate their parents and parents to hate their children. The “good-enough” mother doesn’t need to be taught, but intuitively knows her task, in relation to her child’s anger: to simply survive, not to retaliate or abandon, but simply to survive. And I think there is something in that intuitive sense that one needs to survive, without the need to abandon. To stay in that place allows an experience of both separation and union, so that it continues to unfold in an ongoing way.

Further Reading in Mindfulness and Psychotherapy

DB: Given the current emphasis on mindfulness in psychotherapy and its recently fashionable use in our culture (even in the speeches of politicians!), are there particular books that you recommend to therapists with a beginning interest in mindfulness or meditation?
ME: I would recommend Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind by ShunryÅ« Suzuki. While not being an operational manual in mindfulness or cognitive behavioral therapy, it gives you the flavor or taste or feeling of what it is to look at life from that perspective.
DB: One of Suzuki-Roshi’s quotes that my cognitive-behavioral friends will love is: “It is not the thoughts that create problems for us. It is our harboring them.”
ME: I would also recommend The Psychoanalytic Mystic
by the psychoanalyst Michael Eigen. It is not very well known, but is a beautiful synthesis on his part of both psychoanalytic wisdom and compassion drawn from various of the world’s religious traditions and from the point of view of a working psychotherapist, showing how he brings these threads together in a very alive and helpful way.
DB: In the 10th-anniversary edition of Thoughts Without A Thinker: Psychotherapy from a Buddhist Perspective, your preface highlighted the evolution of your understanding of both Buddhism and of psychotherapy over those years. You cite the work of Stephen Batchelor in highlighting the shift in our understanding of meditation as being interpersonal rather than solely intrapsychic. This parallels the movement from an intrapsychic and individual model to the interpersonal or intersubjective understandings of relational psychotherapy. You also mentioned that the way Joseph Goldstein taught you to observe your own mind in meditation is how you had always tried to listen to your patients. You wrote:“This does not mean that I do not respond, that I am not myself when I work, that I do not care, or that I do not sometimes need to probe. But by not having a personal agenda in my therapeutic interactions, by putting my self on hold, I can make room for whatever appears on its own. We practice meditation when we listen to the feelings of another, to their pain, their distress, and their suffering. In this sense, psychotherapy and meditation are one.”

ME: Joseph always says it’s not what you’re experiencing that matters, it’s how you relate it. I always try to remember that.

The Joy of Meditation and of Psychotherapeutic Work

DB: Is there any additional question or issue you would like to address in this brief interview?
ME: It is a little hard to talk about, because I haven’t thought it through completely, but what I have been exploring a lot lately is the Buddha’s understanding of joy or happiness that is derived not from seeking after sensual pleasures but from non-sensual or non-worldly experiences. The Buddha, in that language, was talking specifically about experiences that come in meditation, when the usual seeking after pleasure or rejecting of unpleasure is suspended and one’s experience can withdraw, though that might not be the best word—that one’s experience can relax into the nature of mind. There’s an inherent joyfulness, an inherent balance, one could say loving or shining nature, to the mind that becomes available through the deliberate renunciation of the usual attempts at maximizing pleasure.So taking that seriously, I’ve been thinking about how some aspect of that is actualized in the psychotherapeutic relationship, as well. Which also involves a tremendous amount of renunciation, both on the part of the therapist and the person in therapy.

Joy, I think, is a good word to describe the feeling tones that can be opened up in the psychotherapeutic relationship, which I think therapists have been aware of since the time of Freud but have been scared of, and which people have continually tripped over because it can lead to the suspension of renunciation and the acting out of the feelings that are evoked. But one dimension that the Buddha’s world gives to us is this sense: not of the unconscious being only a whirlpool or cesspool of destructive feelings, but also a background of joyful and loving energy that is here if we are willing to look for it, or is even here if we are receptive to it.

The Courage To Create

DB: It sounds like another book is percolating: The Joy of Therapy, perhaps!Non-therapist acquaintances of mine sometimes remark: “Oh, I could never listen to people’s problems all day!” I often reply that, although I certainly hear painful, difficult and tragic life issues, I also hear of the courage in people’s struggles, and they also share their joyful moments of delight, aliveness, and triumph. It is a privilege to be able to learn deeply about the astonishing varieties of human experience. And at times, at its best, it is a form of I-Thou relationship.

I also wonder if you would feel it appropriate to describe your current personal meditation practice, if it can be so described, other than the meditation-like experience of psychotherapy?

ME: My current meditation practice? I try to sit whenever I have time for it. In the morning if I can, in the evening before bed if the time is available. After reading the New York Times. And I try to go away on retreat (for a week if I am lucky) every year or two.
DB: In ending this talk with you, I am remembering Rollo May, who was another much-admired author I was honored to talk with many years ago. Of his many books, one of my favorites was The Courage to Create. So on behalf of all of your readers and all of the people who have been touched by you and your writing, I want to thank you for being willing to put all of these compassionate, thoughtful and wise explorations out there for us to read because it really does take courage to create.
ME: Thank you.