Walking A Tightrope: Family Therapy with Adolescents and Their Families

Beyond the Comfort Zone

“Clyde is spiraling out of control,” she cried.  “He’s begun to hang out with a bunch of do-no good, do-nothing hoodlums.” She was worried that failure—or worse, tragedy—was aggressively recruiting her only child. “He is a good kid,” she attempted to reassure me, “but I worry about him being in the wrong place at the wrong time.”  Although he’d had no brushes with the law, she was terrified of any potential encounters he might have with the police—an encounter she intuitively knew could be a matter of life or death. 

“Mrs. Gilyard, like so many other parents of color, was raising her child with the police foremost in her thinking.”  While she and her husband enjoyed a solid middleclass lifestyle, both were African American and understood all too well the rules of the streets, especially regarding young black males. Mrs. Gilyard was worried because she understood that the urban streets were unforgiving for many young black males like Clyde. Unfortunately, Clyde, according to his mother, “knows everything and won’t listen to me or his father.”  In fact, Clyde had, in a very short period of time, according to his mother, transformed from a “very respectful young man” to a disrespectful, self-centered, impulsive shadow of the human being he used to be. “He’s moody, often refusing to talk for days, and all he wants to do is sleep, text message, hang out with his friends, and download music.  To be honest with you, Dr. Hardy,” Mrs. Gilyard said, “although he is my God-given son…” She paused. “I am quickly getting to the place where I can’t stand to be in his presence. I am not sure I even like him anymore. I can’t tolerate his nasty attitude. I have no patience with him. I’m worried that I might hurt him, or someone else will, if he doesn’t get some help.”

As our telephone conversation progressed, it seemed to have no end in sight. Mrs. Gilyard needed to vent and was oblivious to time or circumstance. I tried numerous times to gracefully end the phone conversation that was dangerously slipping into a full-blown noncontractual, nonconsensual therapy session, but Mrs. Gilyard was too consumed by her utter sense of desperation, now flirting with panic. 

I commented that although she seemed to have moments where she felt disdain for Clyde’s behavior, her dominant feelings towards him seemed to be worry, fear, and a deep motherly love for him. I went on to suggest that I imagined the situation with Clyde was taking a huge toll on her, as well as the entire family, and although she was seeking treatment for Clyde, I thought it would be helpful for the entire family to attend.  My comment and suggestion apparently surprised Mrs. Gilyard and immediately earned her ire. Her tone and approach to our conversation changed instantly.

“Why do we need therapy?” she demanded.  “I don’t think there is anything wrong with Claude and me, and I honestly don’t know what there is for us to gain from coming into therapy. We will do whatever to help Clyde, but he has to find himself and nobody else can do that for him. As his parents, we have to provide him with love, support, and guidance, but he has to be willing to accept it. Right now, his friends and his music seem to be all he cares about!   I don’t see how us coming to therapy is going to help him get what he needs.”

My interaction with Mrs. Gilyard suddenly shifted from the emotionally intense, unconditionally accepting reflective listening phase of engagement to one of the most delicate and thorny areas of family therapy: problem definition and who should attend the session. These issues are always critical dimensions of family therapy treatment. Mrs. Gilyard and I suddenly found ourselves on a major collision course.  She remained convinced that Clyde was the problem and that whatever was going on with him needed to be fixed inside of him.  In her world, problems were individual and the solutions were simple: you found out what was broken and you fixed it. From her perspective, Clyde was broken, like a malfunctioning carburetor in a car, and in either case the solution was a simple matter of targeting it and repairing it.  She seemed to be oblivious to the fact that even the best mechanic in world could not repair a faulty carburetor without having access to the car! This was where our worldviews collided.

I believe that all problems are essentially relational and that we all are relational beings living our lives in a relational context.  As a family therapist, I believe that problems are delicately and seamlessly interwoven in a nexus of relationships.  “It is difficult for me, if not impossible, to envision any human interaction problem without considering the relational context in which it is embedded.” So, unlike Mrs. Gilyard, I assumed that the problems were embedded in relationships and the relationships were embedded in problems.  In this regard, in cases such as the Gilyards’, it is my contention that family members contribute to the formation of a problem, the maintenance of it, or both. And if problems are embedded in relationships, so are solutions! Thus, having the entire family participate in therapy is essential. 

However, from the perspective of Mrs. Gilyard, Clyde was the problem because it was his behavior that was problematic. It was he who was broken, malfunctioning, or deviating from family and societal norms. Accordingly, Mrs. Gilyard believed that the best solution to the problem was to treat the problem: Clyde! The dilemma was that if I dismissed Mrs. Gilyard’s definition in favor of mine, therapy could not occur. Yet on the other hand, if I abandoned what I believe, how could I possibly assist the family without further problematizing Clyde? Before ever meeting Clyde, it was crystal clear to me that he was considered the problem and would continue to be until his deeds, attitudes, and behaviors complied with his mother’s wishes.  So in a sense, the only problem was the problem that was asserted by the family. And, if I insisted otherwise–i.e. that my definition of the problem should overshadow the family's viewpoint–then that would only result in creating yet another problem! This is the tightrope that all family therapists have to gently and delicately traverse.

            Despite Mrs. Gilyard’s claim that she would do anything to assist Clyde “in getting his life back,” attending therapy with him was not on her immediate list. Because I often believe that a family’s refusal or reluctance to participate in therapy is usually a result of a tendency to think individually and not relationally, and an underlying fear of being blamed and/or exposed, I knew I had to tackle both of these issues with Mrs. Gilyard if family therapy were to ever take place.

I tried to reassure her that a family session would not be about finger pointing or keeping score about who did what to whom. “It will be a place where we can develop a deeper and better understanding regarding how the family operates and how each of you is affected by what everyone does,” I explained over the phone. “You know, families cannot function well when each member attempts to do what they think is right or best without considering how it affects others.”

At this point, although unfazed and unconvinced, she at least seemed willing to listen more carefully.

“You, along with your husband, seem to be concerned, involved, and loving parents. I imagine the two of you have an infinite reservoir of information about Clyde that you have been collecting since his birth. You, quite possibly unlike any other person on the planet, have cherished early life memories of Clyde that you have probably safely tucked away in the secure closets of your mind. I know you and your husband need my help, and I am honored that you are willing to trust Clyde in my hands. But I need you and your husband’s help as well. I need the infinite knowledge and wisdom that you and quite possibly only the two of you have about him as well. My time with him will be limited no matter how much time we have, and it would be great to have the two of you as resources. You know, I am sure you have heard that old African proverb expressed a million times that it ‘takes a village to raise a child.’ Well, if Clyde is struggling as much as you say he is—and I have no reason to believe otherwise at this point—he needs a village. And we will be Clyde’s village!” 

After an impregnated pause and a chilling silence, Mrs. Gilyard, in a much softer voice, said with a slight sigh of relief and perhaps resignation, “Yes, you’re right.  Clyde is a part of me. He is like my third arm or leg. I do know him. Or at least, I used to.  I will talk to my husband. Doctor, I hope you—er, I guess I should say, I hope we can help my son.”

It Takes a Village

Exactly one week later following our phone conversation, Mrs. Gilyard made good on her promise. She, her husband of 30 years Claude, and their son Clyde arrived at my office for our first session. My initial interactions with the family were pleasant and polite as we engaged in light-hearted conversations about the weather and traffic. Throughout it all Clyde remained detached, appearing disinterested but respectful.  There was an understandable tightness to the family. They seemed tense. Mr. Gilyard was noticeably uncomfortable and asked several times in the first few minutes about how long the session would last and how many sessions would it take before they would “see results.”

I thanked the family for coming and their dedication to finding answers to issues that were plaguing them. Then I turned to Clyde. “I’ve talked to Mrs. Gilyard on the phone and know that she is worried a great deal about you.”

He smirked slightly but refused to bite the bait and respond to me verbally. I was encouraged by the smirk because it was a sign of responsiveness to being engaged—a private mental note I made certain to record.  I turned to Mr. Gilyard and asked, “Do you share your wife’s concerns?” Then, turning to Clyde again, “What do you think about all of this?” To increase the probability of participation throughout the therapeutic process, “it is imperative in family treatment to acknowledge all family members as early as possible and to invite their participation even if and when they passionately refuse.”

The room was quickly filled with a breathtaking silence and discomfort. Finally, perhaps as a function of her discomfort, Mrs. Gilyard broke the mounting minutes of silence that must have felt like hours to the family, by inexplicably saying: “You are so much smaller than I imagined you to be. I for some reason expected a bigger, older man.”

After many years of clinical practice, I am seldom surprised by the disclosures that are uttered within the private walls of therapy, but I was surprised by Mrs. Gilyard’s comment and wasn’t immediately sure what to make of it. I simply responded: ‘Oh, well… Thanks for your honesty… I always find it an interesting task to imagine what someone looks like based on their voice and telephone personality.” 

It was of note to me that Mrs. Gilyard elected to make me the focal point at the precise moment that I was attempting to engage Claude and Clyde about their perceptions about the family. Maybe this was coincidental, but I wondered if I was getting a snapshot of how hard Mrs. Gilyard worked in this family.  Since I had spent an appreciable amount of time with her on the phone, I really wanted to make a concerted effort to interact with Claude and Clyde. So I returned to father and son and asked, “What is going on with the family from where you sit?” 

Mr. Gilyard then turned to Clyde and said: ‘The doctor’s talking to you. Tell him what you think. And sit up, please. And Clyde, take off the hat. And put that thing away,” she ordered, gesturing toward his son’s iPod. Clyde sat still and stoically, dressed in a blue-and-white NY Yankee baseball cap that he had on backwards, stylishly coordinated with an elegant blue silk tee shirt, and blue-and-white Jordan sneakers.  He looked at his father and slowly removed his baseball cap, never uttering a single word. 

 Mr. Gilyard, after thinking for a few minutes, said he was worried about Clyde and believed it was getting harder and harder to reach him.  He noted that he didn’t share his wife’s short fuse with regards to Clyde’s antics but was bothered by his son’s lack of direction.  “He doesn’t take life seriously. He thinks it’s a joke, a game!  He has no sense of the sacrifices that his mother and I and many who came before us have made for his benefit.  He is reckless, impulsive, and irresponsible. He thinks only of today, this minute—this second!  He has no goals or interest in anything. He wants to sleep his life away,” observed Mr. Gilyard, his voice rising. “I am so afraid that he is going to wake up one day and suddenly discover that life is indeed short, precious, and waits for no one—a realization that will come much too late for him to do anything about it.” 

As Mr. Gilyard’s lower lip began to quiver, and his right eye began to slowly fill with a single developing tear, I asked him to turn to his son and to tell him that he loved him and that he was worried about him.  The older man seemed stunned and paralyzed by my request.  Obviously overcome and perhaps even slightly embarrassed by his emotions, he could only say to me in a tone slightly above a whisper, shaking his head slowly and affirmatively, that Clyde knew. 

“But can you turn to him and tell him?” I asked again, to which he responded by repeating his earlier refrain: “He knows.” 

A New Conversation

“Once again, Mrs. Gilyard was in her familiar role of working overtime for the family while Mr. Gilyard was working hard to emotionally retreat from the interaction.” Maybe there was something to this dynamic: maybe Mr. Gilyard’s “low pulse” for engagement heightened his wife’s anxiety, which she ameliorated by becoming more actively involved in an interaction.  Her involvement in turn  reinforced his low pulse, and his low pulse heightened her anxiety and so forth and so on. 

Meanwhile, Clyde remained a central but peripheral figure in the family’s interaction.  He was the frequent subject of his parents’ reprimands, criticism, and attempts to speak for him. While it was Mrs. Gilyard’s good intention to make sure that Clyde was reassured of the love that his dad was having difficulty expressing directly, it was nevertheless counterproductive to what I was trying to accomplish with the family at this point. So I decided to re-engage Mr. Gilyard by simply turning my body towards him and pointing to Clyde. 

He started his interaction with Clyde by telling him, critically, why he needed to change. I immediately interrupted him. “I realize this is important fatherly advice you’re offering your son,” I said, “but I want you to suspend the advice giving for a moment and simply tell your son that you love him and that you’re worried about him.” 

For the first time during the session, Clyde looked at me and said, “Boy, you’re a trip! Just give it up. Why keep asking the same frickin’ thing over and over again? I know he loves me. There. Are you satisfied? Now can we move onto something else?” It was striking to me that this one seemingly benign and simple request sent so many reverberations through the family while giving me a front-row seat to the family drama that had necessitated the Gilyards coming to therapy.

I commended Clyde. “I like the fact that you’re so honest and direct. You didn’t feel like you needed to sugarcoat your feedback for me. I think I like you, Clyde!”  I hoped that my feedback would have some resonance with him and provide a small buffer against the barrage of negative feedback he was accustomed to getting from his parents.  Clyde responded with a very faint smile, a slight shrug of his left shoulder, but for the most part he continued to sit motionlessly and without much overt expression.

 The family’s process had been marvelously effective at maintaining their status quo. The climate in the room was much less intense and they seemed more relaxed, at least on the surface. Mrs. Gilyard scanned the room with a sense of anxious anticipation. She looked as if she was wondering, “What’s going to happen next?”  Mr. Gilyard retreated and seemed far away, while Clyde nervously patted his right foot and stared at the ceiling. I sat quietly observing the family as my eyes occasionally connected with Mrs. Gilyard’s. 

After a few minutes of silence, I commented to Mr. Gilyard, “It seemed like it was a little difficult for you to talk directly to Clyde a few minutes ago. Was it difficult?”  

“You know, Doctor,” Mr. Gilyard quickly responded,  “it is not difficult for me to talk to my son and I don’t really have a problem talking to him. It’s just sometimes it seems pointless because Clyde is going to do what Clyde wants to do. I feel like the things his mother and I say to him go through one ear and out the other. So sometimes my attitude is, ‘Why bother!’” 

I noted how frustrating and seemingly futile such a dynamic could be, especially when there are legitimate worries and wishes that they would like to seriously convey to Clyde. Then I made an observation to Mr. Gilyard, trusting that Clyde and Mrs. Gilyard were eavesdropping. 

“My early sense of Clyde so far is that he is self-reflective, contemplative, and a courageous communicator,” I said. “I have noticed the way that he has sat here very quietly but has been very attuned to what is going on here, though his words have been few.  Yet as you observed a few minutes ago, when he had something to say, boy, did he say it with force, conviction, and clarity. I think a good conversation is possible between all of you if you could each attempt to have the conversation differently. Trying to have new conversations the same old way you have been attempting to have them is not working for the family. If you continue to hold onto the old ways you have been trying to engage with each other, this process will take forever and Clyde will turn to his friends for the conversations he should be having with his parents!” 

Mr. Gilyard seemed intrigued, if for no other reason than my oblique reference to the timetable for treatment, which I knew was important to him. I then asked Mr. Gilyard, “So do you think taking a different approach to talking to Clyde is something that you would be willing to try?” 

 “I am willing to do anything that you think will help me reach my son,” he replied.  

“I appreciate your willingness to give this a try,” I responded.  “I would like to return to where we were earlier. When I listen to you, I feel a kind of underlying pain—almost haunt—that you have when you think about Clyde’s life. What I hear and feel from you is worry, fear, and pain, yet what gets communicated to Clyde, and probably what he hears, is criticism, rejection, and anger. I would like for us to try this differently this time around. Can you turn to your son and tell him you love him and that you’re worried about him?” 

Mr. Gilyard looked at me with a slight sheepish grin and nodded.  He then took a minute to collect his thoughts as he stared at something beyond the room in which we are sitting. Mrs. Gilyard fidgeted a bit and nervously rubbed her hands together.  I could tell Clyde was very tuned in, although he outwardly retained his cool pose of detached disinterest. 

The silence built and so did the intensity in the room. After a few more minutes, Mr. Gilyard turned to Clyde.

 “I don’t know why this has been so hard for me,” he said to his son. “I don’t want you to think it had anything to do with not loving you…because I do love you very much, my firstborn son.  I will always love you, and I am sorry if I have somehow ever given you the message that I don’t love you or that my love for you is conditional.”

“Can you also tell him about your worries?” I encouraged him.

Mr. Gilyard sighed. “I do worry about you.”

“Can you tell him about your worries?” I prodded. “The ones that keep you up at night.”

 “I guess I worry all the time. I worry about drugs, although I don’t think you would ever    be stupid enough to do drugs. I worry about you not giving your best in school and the ways that will hurt your future. I worry about…” “Mr. Gilyard’s breathing shifted; his words suddenly seem much harder to find.” His voice was beginning to break and he now seemed more hesitant to continue.

“You’re doing great,” I told him. “This is the type of conversation that you and Clyde have needed to have for awhile now. Please don’t hold back now. Tell him about all of the fatherly worries you have about him.”

 “I worry… I worry…” Mr. Gilyard began to cry. “About something awful happening to you. About you dying, and there is nothing I or your mother can do to protect you. I worry about the damn trigger-happy police. I am worried that life is short and I don’t know what I would do if anything ever happened to you,” he sobbed. “The streets are vicious. People are vicious. And no one seems to GIVE A DAMN about young black boys like you.” He pounded the coffee table with his hand. “I can’t tell you, Clyde, the number of times that I have awakened in the middle of the night sweating from the same bad dream—the same nightmare that you are lying on 22nd Street in a pool of your own blood which is OUR blood too.” He turned to his wife. “Tell him, Geraldine, how many times you have had to comfort me from the same goddamn dream. “ Mrs. Gilyard nodded in confirmation while I gestured to her to refrain from speaking at this point. Both Mrs. Gilyard and Clyde were now beginning to cry as well.

Clyde spoke. “I don’t know what’s wrong with you and Mom. All you do is accuse me of doing bad things and being a bad person. I go to school, I get decent grades, and yet I all I ever hear is, ‘You didn’t do this. You didn’t do that. This is going to happen. That is going to happen.’” Clyde was more animated than I had yet seen him, and his voice was raised; he was crying profusely .

“Clyde,” I said, “I am so glad to hear you say how all of this affects you. I would be surprised if your parents knew that you have been affected so much by their worries and criticism of you. Thank you for again being such a courageous communicator—you know, having the courage to say what needs to be said and not just whatyou think others think you should say. Your tears—who were they for? What were they for?”

 “I don’t know,” Clyde said softly.

“Clyde, honey,” said Mrs. Gilyard, “I am sorry that I have been so caught up in my own worries that I have not taken a second to think about how all of this has been affecting you.” She began to cry even louder as she walked over and draped one arm around Clyde while reaching out with the other for Mr. Gilyard.  As she held Clyde, sobbing, she repeated, “I am so sorry. I am so sorry.” I sat quietly, observing this pivotal and sacred moment for the family, and remained appropriately peripheral for the moment.

Mr. Gilyard broke the momentary silence. “Son, we didn’t mean to hurt you and put so much pressure on you. We don’t think you’re bad. We just worry about you.”

“I honestly don’t know why you are so worried,” said Clyde. “I feel like I can’t breathe without causing somebody—you or Mom—to worry.”

Finally I stepped in. “I want to thank each of you for all of your hard work today, and thank you, Mrs. Gilyard, for your hard work in getting everyone here today. Mr. Gilyard, I am so pleased that you were able to tell Clyde about your worries. Now he knows that there are real heartfelt worries beneath all of the criticism. My hope is that you and Mrs. Gilyard can be more diligent in expressing your worries without the criticism, and that, Clyde, you could remind yourself that somewhere beneath their criticism is an unexpressed worry. By the way, Clyde, I share part of your curiosity regarding the roots of your parents’ worries.” I turned to the parents. “I completely understand your worries about the police, school, and what happens if Clyde ends up in the company of the wrong crowd. I think it’s great that you are concerned and involved parents. But as I mentioned earlier, there seems to be a ‘haunt’ when it comes to your efforts to parent Clyde. It is particularly poignant with you, Mr. Gilyard.”

As I wrapped up our first two-hour session, I reminded the family that I am a firm believer in assigning homework between sessions. “Homework is a wonderful strategy for ensuring that families continue to work together outside of treatment and not rely solely on our weekly two-hour meetings to promote change.” The actual tasks to be completed are seldom as important as the spirit of cooperation, collaboration, and communication that is generated (or not) as a result of the assignment. The Gilyards’ first homework assignment was for each member of the family to generate a minimum list of three beliefs each of them had regarding why there was so much worry in the family. They should generate their respective lists separately and then share their beliefs in a brief family meeting that should be scheduled by Mr. Gilyard and must take place before our next session. Clyde was assigned the task of keeping track of whether all of the rules had been followed by all members of the family, including himself, of course. And finally, Mrs. Gilyard was assigned the task of taking a vacation day from all coordinating tasks associated with the homework assignment.

The Gilyards showed up for our next session on time, and not only had they completed the homework assignment but had done so by rigidly adhering to all of the specified terms. While the assignment failed to produce any revelatory moments for the family, it did lay down some important groundwork for several transformative future sessions.

A Haunted Past

“It was too much responsibility and too big of burden. How can you possibly protect your children from the perils of the world?  My parents were super parents and even they could not protect Clyde and Roger,” he often reflected.  “For many years of my life, the pain of losing my brothers was so painfully gut-wrenching, I couldn’t have imagined any greater pain had they been my children. And then Clyde was born. Everything changed. Suddenly I could imagine a greater pain than what I had already experienced. For a few years, especially the early ones, he actually helped to redirect some of the pain I felt about the loss of Clyde and Roger. Maybe he gave me something else to focus on that my own father never had after losing two sons. I know that both Mom and Dad never ever recovered from Clyde’s murder, and then when Roger was killed, they simply stopped living.” 

Mr. Gilyard’s protracted mourning and shame never allowed him to be honest with his son about his uncle and namesake. He created the story about Viet Nam because it allowed him to recreate his brother in an image that was more positive and less burdened by the all of the familiar stereotypes of black men. This, unfortunately, was a huge piece of his son’s burden—a burden he undoubtedly carried from birth. He was not only his fallen uncle’s namesake, but he was a psychological object of possible redemption for his father. Suddenly all of Mr. Gilyard’s worries made sense to me. How could he not possibly once again find himself facing the dawning of the period of adolescence, without re-living the traumatic loss of his two younger brothers?  How could he not worry about Clyde, the flesh of his flesh, possibly following the pathway of brothers Clyde and Roger? “After all, life had taught him a brutally cold and unforgettable lesson that young black boys don’t live beyond age fifteen”, and Clyde was now fourteen.

As our sessions continued, it was a bit unnerving to discover just how unkind the untimely death of young boys had been in the Gilyard’s family. Mrs. Gilyard also had a younger brother, Will, who was killed at age seventeen in a terrible car accident. Although Clyde knew of his Uncle Will, and the circumstances of his death, he did not know that his uncle was illegally intoxicated at the time of his death. According to Mrs. Gilyard, Will was a passenger in a car that was driven by his best friend who was also intoxicated at the time of the accident. As Mrs. Gilyard told the story of Will’s final moments, she wept as if it had just happened yesterday.  She maintained that had Will not been in a state of an alcohol-induced stupor, he could have possibly survived the tragic accident.  Clyde’s surge into adolescence had been a significant unintended catalyst for re-igniting the unresolved grief that haunted both of his parents. In a strange way, Clyde’s life was a powerful symbolic reminder of the Gilyards’ ongoing struggle to make peace with death and loss.

I continued to see the Gilyards for a total of eleven sessions, and I believe they made tremendous strides, though there was still additional work to be done. As a result of family therapy, the parents had a better understanding of how the tragic losses of their siblings were infiltrating and sabotaging their best efforts to be the type of parents that they ultimately wanted to be.  They were far less critical of Clyde, but still resorted to blame and criticism when they felt anxious about their son’s life.  The Gilyards had made significant progress in granting Clyde considerably more breathing room, and yet this was still a major challenge for them to completely master.  Our work together had also been instrumental in helping Clyde to see and experience his parents with far more complexity. While he strongly resented their “constant nagging,” he also now understood and felt more genuinely their love for him. From our sessions together, “he had the opportunity to experience his parents as human beings with real feelings—hurt, pain, and joy”—and not just as critical, robotic and detached enforcers of the rules. He was able to develop more compassion for his parents and them for him. The family sessions afforded Clyde the opportunity to both fight with them—something that the family excelled at—as well as to cry with them—something they were not very good at. Yet, on the other hand, and in spite of it all, Clyde also continued to live up to his reputation as an adolescent.  His failure to follow through with chores, spending too much time of his cell phone, and his frequent flashes of self-righteousness continued to be challenges for him and his parents. 

Providing the Map

Both Mr. and Mrs. Gilyard terminated therapy with the understanding that the difficulties that brought us together were much bigger and more complicated than what rap music Clyde listened to or “his no-good, do-nothing hoodlum friends.” While Clyde expressed a number of troubling behaviors that at times appeared depression-like, “his” problems were much more complicated and intricately embedded in family dynamics and history than he or his parents realized Clyde’s symptomatic behavior was as much an indication of a family system that was not functioning properly as it was a sign of his individual pathology.

While the issues that constituted the core of Mrs. Gilyard’s early concerns about Clyde were significant issues, they paled by comparison to the complex, systemic, and intergenerational issues that made the Gilyards’ task of parenting so challenging. Through my work with the family, I was able early on to get a poignant snapshot of how the family was organized and how they interacted. I was able to rely more on what I observed than what they told me. There is something powerful and transformative about the process of witnessing—having the ability to experience and re-live the stories of another’s life with them.  Had I complied with Mrs. Gilyard’s request and “treated” Clyde independently of his family, he would have probably continued to live his life in the shadow of his Uncle Clyde without him or the family acknowledging it, while the family simultaneously and unfortunately maintained that the uncle who had been murdered unceremoniously and without distinction on the streets of the inner city, was instead a Viet Nam veteran and hero.  It was interesting and prophetic that Mrs. Gilyard, before our first session, noted passionately that Clyde had “become a shadow of the human being that he used to be.” I guess he had.

During this pivotal moment of therapy, Clyde was able to bear witness not only to his father’s shame, humiliation and hurt, but to his pain and humanness as well.  It changed forever how he saw his father, understood him, and more importantly, experienced and related to him.  Mr. Gilyard, in return, was able to give his beloved son and the namesake of his twin brother a gift of humility and a context for better understanding his father’s worries. And Mrs. Gilyard was finally able to “catch her breath” and exhale. She, for once, would not have to over-function to compensate for Mr. Gilyard’s reticence and emotional blockage. Finding the lovingness in him as a father also allowed her to add depth to the lovingness that she had for him as a spouse, which had the unplanned consequence of further strengthening their marital bond as well. “This is the beauty of family therapy: when it works well, it helps families to recalibrate and to experience reverberations throughout the system even across generations.”  If Clyde someday decides to become a father, I believe that the shifts he experienced in the relationships with his father specifically, and with his parents in general, will impact how he parents.  As a result of the family’s involvement in family therapy, the generational and relational arteries that connected the lives of Clyde, Uncles Clyde, Roger, and Will, as well Mr. and Mrs. Gilyard and many others, have been refreshingly and painstakingly unblocked, but will require ongoing work to remain so. This, too, is part of walking the tightrope: helping families find ways to celebrate newfound highs while simultaneously keeping them grounded enough to confront the next new challenge.

Family therapy, especially with adolescents, is often about walking on a tightrope: dangerously and delicately walking the fine line between hazard and hope. The tightrope is ultimately about encouraging and exploring that undefined, often difficult-to-measure balance between clinically taking positions and imposition, between promoting intimacy and compromising safety, and between increasing intensity and fostering comfort.  Having a willingness to tiptoe along the tightrope often means that in my work with adolescents and their families, I have to stretch myself well beyond my zone of comfort and safety. As a family therapist I have to earnestly and relentlessly push myself in treatment to ask one question more than the question I am comfortable asking, and to take risks that might expose me to failure, while at the same time offering tremendous potential for the promotion of healing and transformation.  

Kenneth V. Hardy on Multiculturalism and Psychotherapy

Trained to be a “pretty good white therapist”

Randall C. Wyatt: Hi Kenneth. Today I want to talk to you about your work in ethnic studies, diversity, and social justice with a particular emphasis on how that impacts the work we do in psychotherapy. But I want to start with something basic: What originally got you into the field of psychology and diversity?
Kenneth V. Hardy: Good to be here Randy. Well, at a very early age I started noticing differences in human beings and mostly my own family. I became intrigued just by how was it that my brother and I could grow up in the same family, two years apart, and yet be so incredibly different. I think some piece of that curiosity extended to things like these broader social concerns. I have vivid memories of going home in Philadelphia and asking my parents and my grandmother why there were so many people sleeping on the streets. Despite their best efforts to provide me with what they thought were pretty cogent answers, the answers they gave me didn’t make much sense. I had this insatiable curiosity about how we ended up in circumstances in life. Long before I even knew what to call it, I had some passion for it. I just knew that I was interested in this unnamed discipline that would help me understand human beings better.
RW: Where did you end up going to school to get your psychology degree?
KH: I did my undergraduate work at Penn State University, a Master’s degree at Michigan State and got my doctorate degree in clinical psychology at Florida State. So I did a little bit of globetrotting.After getting my PhD, I hung around in Tallahassee, Florida for a bit, worked, stayed on at the place where I’d done an internship. Left there, took a job in Brooklyn, New York, at an outpatient psychiatric clinic, and there some of my interests around issues of diversity and race began to crystallize.

I realized after working at the outpatient psychiatric clinic that

my training had prepared me in a way that I was a pretty good, decent white therapist

my training had prepared me in a way that I was a pretty good, decent white therapist. I was in NY and there was great diversity in the clients I was seeing: immigrants, African Americans, poor, and so on. I realized at that point that I was poorly trained and oftentimes challenged very directly by clients of color about the ways in which they felt I was not understanding or appreciative of their experiences; that was very enlightening for me.

RW: Say more about what you mean when you said you were a “pretty good white therapist.”
KH: What I mean is that I had gone to predominately white schools. I struggled with how to take the theories and conceptual models I was exposed to and massage them to apply to individuals and families of color; I was pretty much left to do that myself. There wasn’t someone to oversee, guide, and mentor me for that. I was introduced to ways of thinking, ways of conceptualizing human behavior, problem formation, and solutions from a more Euro-centric point of view. And I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with Euro-centrism. It’s just that not everybody is of European descent.
RW: Much of your career has set out to change that emphasis and broaden what psychologists and psychotherapists study and who they work with. We will get to more of that in a minute. What did you do next in your career?
KH: I left New York and took a faculty position at the University of Delaware for a short period of time, and then I then went to Washington DC to work for the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy as a senior executive. I also worked rather assiduously there to keep my fingers in academia at Virginia Tech on their campus in Fosters, Virginia. And then after almost ten years at AAMFT, I left to go to Syracuse. There was a program specializing in family therapy and social justice that drew me there. I helped to get the PhD program started and to help solidify the emphasis of diversity and multicultural social justice.I recently moved back to a program in Philadelphia Drexel University where there is a strong emphasis around diversity and social justice. And my last book was on youth and violence (Teens Who Hurt: Clinical Interventions to Break the Cycle of Adolescent Violence) and sadly and unfortunately, Philadelphia has a major problem with violence, in particular, youth violence, and so it’s an important place to continue my research in that area.

Social justice and diversity

RW: How do you describe and differentiate diversity and social justice?
KH: I’m glad you ask because lately in lectures I’ve been suggesting that we as a discipline need to tease out a bit some of the nuances and distinctions that exist between diversity and social justice. I think that they’re first cousins but they have different emphases. With diversity, it means acknowledging and finding ways to appreciate differences. How do we include? How can we be more inclusive?Social justice has more to do with critiques around power and the inequitable distribution of power. The more diversity-oriented orientation would be one that would embrace some piece of the ideology, “I’m okay, you’re okay.” This presupposes that we’re all situated equally. I think a social justice perspective, while it appreciates differences, also attempts to look at the ways in which we are situated differently and the ways in which everyone possesses power but not everyone possesses it equally. Social justice is about, in one sense, rectifying fractures and ills that may be attributable to the inequitable distribution of power. Social justice is about recognizing that some voices are louder than others, that some people have greater access to power than others, and then what do you do about that. What is your resolve to alter that?

RW: Can you give an example of social justice from something that’s happened or that you’ve noticed?
KH: At this workshop I was just doing here in Berkeley on various isms (Building Inclusive and Multi-Culturally Competent Health Organizations: A Healing Approach to Addressing the Isms), we’re thinking about how to bring people together across any kind of divide—whether it’s race or gender, sexual orientation, class, blue states and red states. We are bringing people together to constructively engage and question the conventional wisdom predicated on the notion that everybody has equal opportunity, equal voice, equal power. I think that’s a fundamentally flawed position, because I think when you bring people together, for example, people of color and whites, there’s a way in which people of color and whites are not situated equally in those situations. It may be an equal resolve to have the conversation, but one group historically has had more power, has enjoyed more privileges and had greater access to resources than the other. So to freeze frame it in this moment and treat it as if everyone is equal, I think disadvantages the group that’s been historically disadvantaged.Now, I used people of color and whites in my example, but I certainly could argue that the same would be true if we were trying to cross a gender divide.

RW: How does it take shape with men and women?
KH: Men historically have had more power than women have. And so that if you’re trying to problem solve, it doesn’t make sense to start from the point of view that presupposes that men and women are on equal footing. That is in keeping with what I think the social justice position would be. What it means is that power and distribution of power is being factored into the analysis of relationship dynamics.
RW: I can see what you are saying and it makes sense – the importance of taking power and history into account. How then does an awareness of that different distribution of power make a difference in a conversation between people?
KH: It can play out in many ways, but I think that what the whites would refrain from doing is turning to people of color and asking them in those settings to teach them, forgive them, accept that they’re unique or whatever.
RW: Like, “Hey, accept that I’m the good white guy.”
KH: Yes. What that does is draw upon these narratives from history, which is what the person of color is in—same would be true for a woman—that they almost immediately get into sort of a caretaking role. And so, like what I would expect from you as a conscientious white person, who’s aware, that even if we were in a group together and you saw me beginning to do this thing, which is caretaking of you, that you would have some consciousness about what’s going on and use yourself in a way that you didn’t collude with me around that.I’ve developed this model which outlines what the tasks of the privileged are in these conversations and what the task of the subjugated are.

RW: So let’s hear your basics on what these tasks are.
KH: If you’re in a privileged position—and it doesn’t matter to me by virtue of what race, class, gender, sexual orientation—I find a much more useful way to have these conversations than to get bogged down in the fine distinctions between these issues. The underlying process is the same no matter what the context is, whether I’m in an organization talking about how to bridge the gap between senior management and laborers, it’s the same process. They’re privileged; they’re subjugated.So one task of the privileged, for example, is to make a critical differentiation between intentions and consequences, because I believe that when one is in a privileged position, one almost invariably talks about intentionality.

RW: “I meant well” or “I was trying to help, trying to do the right thing.”
KH: Exactly, that’s right. You can mean well, have pure intentions and still do harm. And so, conversations between the privileged and the subjugated—whether we’re talking about blue states and red states, or men and women, or poor and wealthy, or races—break down when the person or group in the subjugated positions is principally concerned about consequences where the person in the privileged position is concerned with intentionality. And because the person in the privileged position has power, they have a greater opportunity to frame the discussion around the purity of intentions rather than honoring consequences.So for example, if you said something that I considered racist and I said to you, “That upset me, it was racially insensitive, etc…” This type of consciousness about privilege and subjugation from the social justice perspective would hopefully inform you to address the consequences of what you said rather than providing me with an explanation.

RW: Pay attention to how what you did or said affected the other person versus just defending or explaining yourself.
KH: Yes, I understand how it happens to defend and explain but it’s not a useful conversation. It doesn’t allow for a deepening or an advancement of the dialogue. If I’m stating to you an infraction that I have experienced and your retort is about the purity of your intentions and how I’ve misunderstood it, you see, then that conversation becomes a conversation about what your intentions were rather than a harm that I thought was done to me. Does that make sense to you?
RW: Yes it does and it is quite poignant with significant implications for relations between people and in therapy. Can you tell me why you think this is so crucial?
KH: I believe that an explication of these tasks are important and a necessary prerequisite to bringing people together to have these conversations. I think that these issues around theisms are so explosive and so laden with heavy meanings that it doesn’t make a great deal of sense to me that we can simply bring people together who have been in a tense relationship and just suddenly have a conversation because there’s the will to have it.

I think will is important, but I think you have to have will and skill.

I think will is important, but I think you have to have will and skill. And sometimes, even the best of us have will but no skill, or it’s possible to have skill and no desire to do it, a lack of will.

RW: Will and skill, that’s nice. Let’s go back to the consequence and intention. It seems both would have to be attended to for each person to feel it works in the conversation. The person in power that made the offensive comment or unintentionally offensive comment would have to communicate “I didn’t mean to do that and I am sorry that it hurt you.” The person who felt hurt, offended, thought it had to do with race, let’s say, or whatever, would have to know that their pain and hurt was understood and not dismissed or explained away.
KH: I certainly understand what you’re saying with that, but I don’t think it’s necessary in the midst of an infraction or offense for the person in the privileged position to even get into clarifying intentionality, because that’s designed to take care of them. It’s not on behalf of the relationship. And so when I’m in that position, if a woman is saying to me, “You know, you just said this thing, Ken Hardy, and I’m offended. It did not feel good to me as a woman.” What I need to do is rather than say, “Oh, wait a minute. You misunderstood me. That’s not what I meant. You know, I meant this or that.” What I need to say is, “I’m sorry that I said something that was hurtful to you.” I appreciate the conversation because what I believe is that when you’re in a subjugated position, I don’t think it makes much difference whether it’s intentional or not.
RW: Okay, let’s hear why you think that and why this is so important.
KH: Say that in my haste to go to the bathroom, I step on your foot and break your toe. Your toe is broken whether I intended it or not and that what I need to do is to attend to that first and foremost before I get into any explanations. Let me just think about how ludicrous that would be, that I’ve broken your toe and I’m taking the time to explain to you how it was not intentional and that I’ve never done this before, because what I imagine is that what you’d be most concerned about is getting your toe attended and this whole piece about “I didn’t mean to do it” is not attending to you; it’s attending to me.
RW: This example is right to your point, certainly. I would think it does matter a great deal if a person broke my toe intentionally or not but I would say in support of your point that attending to the wound basically shows that you care about the person and implies that it was not intentional. I’ll go with you on that. Historically there has been too much room for explanation of intention and not enough for the consequence. When there is a crisis going on or a person is wounded, such explanations seem almost superfluous or dismissive.
KH: Yes, and especially because of the history of inequities.
RW: So what are some examples of the responsibility or tasks of the subjugated?
KH: One example has to do with reclaiming one’s voice, because I do believe that when one is in a subjugated position, one typically becomes silenced. Say a woman colleague of mine is offended or feels hurt by something I’ve said but she does not say anything to me, and is quietly resentful and that resentment erodes our relationship. So she’s walking around with something that’s developing, swelling up in her for three weeks. Now she is further upset because I am walking around as if nothing happened. Well, from my perspective, nothing did happen. And so she can’t hold me accountable for that, which she hasn’t shared with me. And so, I do think

that part of the task of the subjugated is to give voice to one’s experiences.

that part of the task of the subjugated is to give voice to one’s experiences. The same would go for me if I was offended at something a white colleague said to me. It sounds simple but I think it’s very complicated because I think that the very socialization process of the subjugated is one that orients them toward silence, a kind of voicelessness.

Another task of the subjugated is to really overcome having to take care of the privileged in very sophisticated ways, often involving self-sacrificial behavior. “I’m not going to say what I believe and I am not meaning what I say,” for example, would be a way in which I sort of protect the privileged because I don’t want to be thought of in a certain way, and so that I end up compromising myself.

I always know that if I’m doing a workshop and if there’s what some might call a “radical militant gay person” in the group who’s challenging heterosexism in a way that makes straight people feel uncomfortable. Invariably what happens is, there’s usually another gay person in that group that’s going to challenge the more radical, outspoken gay person.

RW: Interesting. What do you think is behind this reaction and what are you getting at here?
KH: I see it as a very sophisticated form of taking the privilege. I think dynamically that there’s some inherent fear that people in the subjugated position have about the privileged being taken to task. Sometimes bad things happen when the privileged get challenged. I think historically whites have done that with people of color. I think men have done that with the woman who says more than we think she should say. And so it’s not like it’s necessarily something broken in subjugated people; it is a reflex reaction. It is learned behavior that has to be unlearned in order to be able to constructively engage in these discourses in a way that I think is necessary to move forward.
RW: I get how the one gay person may speak their truth, their experiences and…
KH: Can I interrupt you for a second? Because for me, it’s “radical gay” in quotes. It may not be a person I necessarily consider radical but is being perceived in the group that way.
RW: Okay. I would think if the second gay person was trying to help them be more constructive, that would be valuable. But my guess is you are speaking of times when the second person is trying to soften the blow, to make nice, to avoid the issue, so to speak. Is that it?
KH: I am glad you said that, yes. When one person is trying to almost undo what the other subjugated person has said. I do also think that when you are suffering from ways in which your voice has been muted and when you are in a process of coming to have your own voice, that the voice that you are evolving toward is a very primitive unrefined voice. It’s raw.

Silencing rage versus giving voice to rage

RW: That is a powerful distinction, that the person whose voice has been muted, historically silenced, is finding their voice, and an expectation of some super constructive expression is unrealistic and not really looking at the reality of the situation.
KH: And also, in the interest of the relationship, I would hope that the person in the privileged position—in this case, me—would be able to hold that sometimes-belligerent raw voice, to not issue preconditions, because there’s something about the issuance of preconditions that has the net effect of silencing again.
RW: I’m reminded of a client, an African-American male, who came in with his white American wife because their child had been kicked out of school for fighting. And the father had gotten in trouble for spanking his kid, CPS had been called, and they’d been referred to me. The mother came in quite calm, wanting to know what to do differently. The man was quite angry, very angry and the wife was getting very uncomfortable, trying to calm him down: “You’re in a professional office, and CPS is after you. Bring it down.”
KH: That’s a tough situation, what did you do?
RW: Now what I did, and hopefully I was getting at what you are saying, we’ll see what you think. I said to her, “Why don’t he and I meet together for awhile?” Because he was going off and I had not made much of a connection to him yet. And so she left and he kept going on, so I thought I’d kind of join with him instead of trying to silence him, by saying, “It sounds like you’re furious at this situation that’s happened, you’re tired of it.” And trying to get his voice to come out more rather than less.
KH: Right. That’s right. How did he react?
RW: He seemed to appreciate that. I brought up the issue that I was a white male and how he now was sent to see the man. I asked him, “Do you have any thoughts about that?” He said, “You seem okay, but you know, yeah, you’re right. I didn’t want to come here.” And then the third thing I tried to do was kind of even go one more step, which felt a little risky, but I said, “I’m wondering, you know, what’s going on with you disciplining your kid and they’re saying you’re too much, that you’re out of control – I’m wondering if you’re trying to protect your kid from getting in trouble. That’s why you’re doing this. That you see what is happening with so many black kids and you don’t want that to happen to your kid.” And he said, “Yeah, I’m spanking him more for a reason. I don’t want him to get into fights and like a lot of black men end up in jail. I don’t want my kid to go through that, nothing scares me more than that. ” I felt I was out on a limb in a way, but it felt right and he softened and we went deeper in the session.
KH: That is precisely what I’m getting at, with his anger and his rage—it was counterintuitive—that rather than try to cap it, you moved toward it almost implicitly, encouraging him to go there. I think it did a sort of counterintuitive thing for him; he actually calmed down. I think if you tried to suppress that affect by sitting on top of it [pushes hands down] you press down, it goes up.You know, what you did was,

you were able to sort of get him to calm down by basically almost encouraging him to sort of rage in your presence, and that’s precisely what I’m talking about.

you were able to sort of get him to calm down by basically almost encouraging him to sort of rage in your presence, and that’s precisely what I’m talking about.

And I think that that type of intervention or technique if you think of it that way, I think is within the province of the privileged to do that. I think that when I’m situated in interactions where I have the power and privilege to do that I want to do just that.

I would say that I’m not one of these folks who are out trying to eradicate the world of privilege and dismantle all privilege, because I don’t think that privilege in and of itself is necessarily a bad thing in all circumstances. I think what we ultimately do with privilege determines the valence that’s attached to it, and so that I think it’s possible to have privilege and use privilege responsibly. I think it’s possible to have privilege and use privilege abusively.

RW: I like that you don’t divide people into such either/or categories in that it depends on the situation. Would you say that you’re privileged as a therapist, as a professional, a doctor?
KH: Absolutely. As a man, as a heterosexual, in many ways. And so what I hope for myself is that I use the privilege that I have in a very conscientious, respectful way that helps to promote the kind of change that I hope for rather than using it to exacerbate preexisting differences.
RW: Silencing.
KH: Yes.
RW: Now I want to go back to something you said because I want your take on it. You said that what I did was a good technique, how I got him to express his rage and I gave voice to it and it counterintuitively calmed him. I would have to say I thought he had some valid points, and some of his rage was valid, that yeah, “There’s a reason you’re really trying to manage and help your kid. Maybe you’re going overboard at times but I can see how much your care about your kid.” I didn’t think, “Oh, I’m just going to do this to calm him down.” This is not a technique to appease him, it’s vital and real. I meant it.
KH: Right. Yeah, I appreciate that. There’s no way for you to know this, but just yesterday in my workshop, I’m saying to folks what I believe is exactly what you’re saying. That there’s a piece of what I’m suggesting that looks like a technique although I don’t think it is simply exclusive technique. That if that were just a technique for you, it probably wouldn’t have worked. It was as much ideology as it was technique—there was a way in which you looked at the world that helped that technique to be effective. Even to the point where you say, “I wonder if you’re concerned about your son out there.”Now, I’m telling you, any time any white therapist says that to a black male client, it says so much more than those few words state.

If you’re saying that to me and I’m your client, what I’m thinking is, “Damn. He understands. You know, he understands the reality of the world out there.”

If you’re saying that to me and I’m your client, what I’m thinking is, “Damn. He understands. You know, he understands the reality of the world out there.” I mean, you didn’t have to name it anymore explicitly than you did, but if I’m that client, I’m thinking, “He gets it.”

That’s the part that has virtually nothing to do with technique as such. It has to do with a piece of consciousness, a piece of a world view that you have that you bring to this, and I think that, when I talk about the task of the privileged, responsible use of privilege, that that would be the embodiment of it.

Talking about diversity concerns in psychotherapy

RW: Let’s go to psychotherapy specifically. You started out by saying you were trained to be a good therapist for white people. What is the difference between a therapist practicing therapy as usual versus a therapist practicing therapy informed by racial sensitivity and multicultural concerns?
KH: Well, I think the major difference is that psychotherapy as we’ve known it, as we’ve practiced it, has been one where the focus has been around the, for lack of a better term, the psychology of one’s being… to look inside of me and make some broad generalizations, determinations about what’s broken inside of me. The unit of inquiry really centers around the individual, the intrapsychic processes, and maybe one’s interpersonal processes depending on what you’re doing.I think operating from a culturally informed, multicultural perspective is the recognition that psychotherapy is not just about one’s psychology but also, broadly speaking, about one’s ecology. I’m not just concerned about how is it that this person’s family of origin impacts the client you talked about earlier. There’s a difference between looking at how his family of origin impacted his parenting practices and what society would consider abusive discipline habits—that’s one way of looking at it.

The other way of looking at it, for example, would be to raise questions about what impact his lot in life out there in the world as a black man has on his parenting practices, in addition to his family background and inner world. I’m as interested in one’s ecological context broadly defined and how it shapes behavior, as I am about one’s intrapsychic, psychological processes. So I think that the point of examination is a wider lens.

And I also think that the other piece of it is that it’s not just about having capacity to see it and conceptualize it, but also having a requisite skill to talk about it.

RW: In your experience, how does it play out in talking about diversity and culture in therapy?
KH: In any number of ways. I think in having the willingness and the foresight and the skill to name it. I’ve had people watch me do therapy and be very critical of the way I do therapy. Let me give an example from one of the Psychotherapy with the Experts therapy videos1 with an interracial couple. She’s Chicana, he’s African-American and a stepfather to her two boys by a previous marriage, also an interracial marriage. The boys who are his stepsons, are failing in school, and are into rap music. And he really struggles with that. Now part of my hypothesis is that he may struggle with this because they are more identified with urban black hip hop culture than he is comfortable with.Afterwards some of therapists watching this session say, “It seems like there’s a lot of discussion about race and I don’t know why that was necessary.” And so that to me, that’s a difference in their perspectives and I think that’s how it translates in therapy.

There’s a wilderness of creative space in the therapeutic dialogue for the recognition of race and class, how they inform who we are, decisions we make or decisions we fail to make.

There’s a wilderness of creative space in the therapeutic dialogue for the recognition of race and class, how they inform who we are, decisions we make or decisions we fail to make. Because there’s no aspect of our lives that aren’t, I believe, shaped by the nuances of all these issues—race, class, gender, all of those things.

RW: Why not? I mean, you can almost turn it around and say these are part of the fabric of life, the threads, so it would seem unusual or troubling to not be noticing their relevance. Yet, for years we didn’t.
KH: That’s right. And some today still don’t because they don’t see the utility of doing that.
RW: Let’s say, some may not see the utility, but maybe many also think there’s a danger or a fear, or that it could be offensive, or that it could stir up things and cause a greater problem.
KH: Yes, I think that is true. I think that these fears are impediments to talking and yet I think there’s a greater likelihood to be a problem when it doesn’t come up than when it does come up. And I’m not just talking about bringing up race with clients of color. I’m not just talking about discussing gender with women. I mean, I think it’s important for us to have these conversations with clients across the board and have an openness to look at them. See, I guess that’s the difference. I’m keenly interested in knowing how one’s life and relationships are informed by all of these issues, no matter who’s sitting in front of me. Because I think they do inform our lives though we may not always be conscious of it.
RW: If they are brought up in a constructive way, people seem to love to talk about such things and it brings more meaning to the conversations.
KH: That’s right. And particularly people for whom it’s a major core aspect of their identity and their lives, I agree with you. I think, when properly executed, it does provide a deeper level of richness to the conversation and to the relationship.
RW: I mean, I come from an Italian-American background and if my therapist didn’t know that my grandfather came from Italy, I would feel like he didn’t know about me.
KH: That’s right. I, as your therapist, after having that piece of information would then be curious about your name.
RW: My last name is Wyatt, which is my father’s name. His family came out west from Missouri in the dust bowl and he was mostly English and some Cherokee Indian. My mother’s maiden name is Acquistapace which is Italian. So if my name was Acquistapace, people might see me differently.
KH: That’s absolutely right.
RW: So many people say, “You can’t be Italian.”
KH: Right. They’ll tell you.
RW: Which I’m sure comes up even more so for mixed race, black/white or other mixed race folks.
KH: Yeah, it’s the audacity of it that people can make a claim on somebody else’s identity, and that’s why what you said just cracks me up because I’ve heard so many times, “You can’t be that!”

The psychotherapist as the broker of permission

RW: Can you talk about other ways that discussing racial issues can play out in therapy? Let’s say you’re seeing a white client. Usually most of the books on multiculturalism and psychotherapy are written to the white therapist and say how we can be more informed about ethnic minorities. So very few books are written to the black therapist or the Asian therapist or the gay therapist about how that therapist can work with cross-cultural issues. Yet, since people from diverse groups and identities are becoming therapists more often now, that is changing some. What goes through your mind when you see white clients? What issues have come up for you?
KH: First, as you said, there is a dearth of information about therapists of color with white clients, I think that needs to be addressed more. I also think part of the reason is because it’s part of the psychology of being a minority. When you’re a minority, you have to know about the majority group, so I think that’s part of the reason why that gap exists there.
RW: That minorities live in two worlds.
KH: And where your very survival is predicated on your knowledge of the dominant group, to have to know what to say, when to say it, what not to say.But to come back to your question about therapy. My guess would be that you could interview 100 therapists of color and 90 of them would report anxiety and discomfort about that walk to the waiting room for the first time seeing a client—it comes up in workshops all the time. I’ve experienced that when I have white therapists who refer white clients to me they find it necessary to let them know I’m a therapist of color. So they’re forewarned about that.

RW: Before you go on, it’s fascinating that you mentioned that. When I told people I was interviewing you, one person brought up the question of therapists notifying the client about the therapist being Black. I wondered if this was as common as he thought it was.
KH: It happens all the time. For some therapists I know they routinely and naturally describe people that way, their gender, race, etc, which I don’t have a problem with. But, if it is selective for one race that is problematic. I’ve found myself anxious about what reception I will receive and I don’t think that would be true for you. So either the client is already forewarned that they’re going to see a black person: “You need to know this before you go” or they are not told and are surprised to see me.

I’ve watched clients get paralyzed. “I’m Dr. Hardy, your therapist,” and they cannot move; they are so utterly shocked by it, by the whole race thing.

I’ve watched clients get paralyzed. “I’m Dr. Hardy, your therapist,” and they cannot move; they are so utterly shocked by it, by the whole race thing.

I also think that in situations like that, when it’s cross-racial therapy, it’s really important to me to name race very early in the process, which I often do. I’ve written about the importance of the therapist being the broker of permission. And I think that that permission to acknowledge and talk about race has to be given before it ever happens because the rules of race in our society is that we don’t talk about it. So I use myself to do that. I will make reference to myself in therapy. “Well, as an African-American” or “as a black therapist,” which is my way of saying to you, the white client, “I’m okay acknowledging race. I’m even okay if we talk about it.”

RW: The way you introduced it there was in a subtle way, putting it on the table.
KH: I believe that permission granting maneuver requires some subtly.

I don’t agree with the strategy where white therapists ask clients of color, “How do you feel about being in therapy with me?”

I don’t agree with the strategy where white therapists ask clients of color, “How do you feel about being in therapy with me?” I also don’t agree with me asking a white client that because of power. While I believe the white person is generally in the racially more powerful position, in that context of therapy, I’m in a more powerful role. And so I would be asking this person to engage in a level of self-disclosure about a very difficult topic while I’m not revealing anything about myself. And so I think—again, back to social justice—your privilege also brings a greater responsibility.

It’s my job, the way I see it, to put my views out there about it and not require an answer. It’s up to the client if they want to pick it up and go with it. But my putting it out there is not contingent on them picking it up and going with it. So it’s not like a chess game.

RW: It’s an invitation. It doesn’t need a response, but it’s there.
KH: Absolutely.
RW: Your approach adds a different way of looking at why these types of questions often backfire. I’m glad you brought that up because a lot of cross-cultural psychotherapy books and supervisors across the country are saying to their white interns, you know, Ask the client, “How do you feel about me being white?” or “You’re black, and I’m white.” Or “You’re this, and I’m that, how does that make you feel?” I don’t think it works well that way.
KH: To take the race risk, no it does not work well in that way.
RW: It reminds me of former colleague of mine, John Nickens, an African-American man who was going for his postdoc in psychology after a successful career in management. He went for a group interview and the white interviewer said, “Well, we’re wondering how you feel about coming to work here with, you know, mostly white therapists.” And he said, “I want to work here. I’m wondering how you feel about having me here. I’m okay with being here, that’s why I applied.” I think they were trying to be sensitive but it did not make him feel comfortable. John has a way of cutting right to the chase on these matters.
KH: I personally don’t think that it’s a useful strategy where I’m asking a person to disclose to me because I think the conversation’s too volatile that way. There’s an inequity of power. So you were asking earlier about social justice; that would be an example that’s informed by this difference in power between client and therapist.
RW: Can you give an example with a white client when they did talk about it, when a difficult issue came up?
KH: Well, I am reminded of a young nine-year-old white child who I wrote about. He did not want to continue with me because he believed that white therapists were better and smarter than black therapists. He felt like he was being shortchanged by having me as his therapist and essentially told me that. I first tried to deal with it clinically, but it just exacerbated the situation. He became more egregious and more insulting and assaultive in his interactions with me. I think he was pissed off that I wasn’t releasing him from the therapy. And, he had these well-developed emotions about why it was unacceptable to him to have a black therapist. It had to do with somehow he was being disadvantaged by having me as his therapist.Other times issues have come up where I’ve had a client who has used a word like “nigger” for blacks or “spic” to refer to Hispanics, not just Puerto Ricans but Hispanics. When I address that, it’s almost like it’s a wake-up call to them that I’m a person of color. And it’s, “Oh, well…” It’s like they sort of excuse me because I’m a therapist, but I always feel it necessary to raise issues like that anywhere they come up and sort through them.

And then there what I consider subtleties of race, microaggressions, where my clients talk about not wanting their daughter to date a black guy. And they say to me, “It’s nothing personal, Ken. It’s just too hard out there. You know, I worry about her.” So those conversations eek up in therapy a lot, and it’s almost like sometimes with white clients, it comes out before they realize it. And it’s, “Oh my, he’s black…”

Doing work with adolescents, I often get referrals from white families who are referring their children to therapy, mostly boys, because they think they sometimes act too ethnic. They say their white sons act too black, so they send them to me to help them with that.

RW: And how do you think about and approach these situations with clients?
KH: Well, for the family that refers them for acting too black, I’m always curious about what that means. What does it mean to act black? And I have my own thoughts about that, so I don’t pretend. I engage the parents in, “What is the difficulty with some of this behavior that’s being so pathologized?” because I do believe that in our society when kids of color act white, they’re considered good kids, and when white kids act like kids of color, they need therapy. And so, I try to make that part of the conversation.With the father who didn’t want his daughter dating a black guy, my general approach in therapy is to try to open up the conversation and dialogue with him. I think that we often times, in and outside of therapy, so quickly move in ways that we shut conversations like that down when I think we should be opening them up. I try to respond in ways so I don’t go into the challenge of, “Why? Why not? What’s wrong with you!” I try and get into their world and understand how they’re putting all this together that it gets him to this place where he has a well-developed position against his daughter dating an African American.

In working with racial or cultural issues, I think it’s important to create a space for a conversation rather than me issue a cease-and-desist order.

In working with racial or cultural issues, I think it’s important to create a space for a conversation rather than me issue a cease-and-desist order.

RW: Instead of silencing them. Because that person could feel silenced, too.
KH: Absolutely.
RW: I think white people ”I don’t think it’s the same thing as silencing a subjugated group” but I think we should address it. I want to hear what you have to say about the fear of being called a racist. It’s a Catch-22 in society and especially in forums where diversity and racism are discussed. On one hand, let’s be open about racial issues, let’s talk about ethnicity, about that it’s a culture with racism in it, and people should be aware of their own prejudices and privileges. Yet if somebody is defined as being racist, they’ll get really defensive, they may lose their job, other people will see them as really out there.
KH: Well, that’s why I try not to ever use the term “racist” to apply to someone or to refer to someone. I personally don’t find it useful, and I think that it’s a conversation stopper, a conversation blocker. It doesn’t facilitate, because it’s so totalizing in a sense. I was consulting to an organization that was already one year into an anti-racism initiative. I was never quite comfortable with that term because it has a way of implicating people in a way that it doesn’t allow for some wiggle room with people who are trying to find a way to grow. More often than not what I see is that the person who’s been called a racist gets into defensive mode about why they’re not a racist, and that becomes the conversation rather than this belief I have about why my daughter shouldn’t date a black man or whatever.

Of course, white therapists can be challenged with things from clients of color as well. The question is, how to deal with those issues from a curiosity mindset instead of becoming defensive or pathologizing, and how to bring them up in a way that allows for discussion.

RW: I am thinking of one situation where the issue of race came up but in a indirect but powerful way. I remember one time a black woman client of mine was very upset because she was being discriminated against at work, mostly by white supervisors. And she said she felt very angry about white people and saw white people on the train and looked at them very intently as if to look right through them to scare them. So at a certain point, I said, “Well, you know, how does it feel you telling me ”I’m white, you are feeling lots of anger toward white people, how does it feel to tell this to me here?” And she talked about it very freely as we had a strong trusting relationship. In that state of hurt and anger that she was in, she generalized beyond those who had hurt her. She said she struggled with that because it didn’t make sense to her. She didn’t hate white people. She had grown up with many friends that were white and appreciated people of various backgrounds. But in that moment it transferred there.
KH: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, it makes. Where did this lead you in term of your relationship and your work with her?
RW: I saw her for years in therapy and years later she told me, “When I first came to see you, I didn’t think you could understand my culture, my life, but I gave you a try because they referred me to you and I like to give people a chance in life.” She said that over the years her view of me had changed, “First I saw you as a white guy. Then I saw you as a doctor. Then later I saw you as a pretty good doctor. I came to see you as a friendly doctor, and then I saw you as a person and a friend who was a doctor.” And that kind of blew me away and sticks with me to this day.
KH: Wow. That is profound. And it seems to be reflective of just, I mean, the incredible piece of work you’ve done with her, the deepening of the relationship together. I mean, it says it all. You know, you’ve gone from “white person” to “person and friend who happens to be a doctor.” I mean, that’s so amazing.
RW: So much so that when my father died, she wanted to pay her respects to my mother. She said it was just what people did where she was from. She had also heard stories of my father and what a fair man he was. She let me know she was going to contact my mother since my client was in her town on business. At first, I was fairly reticent due to unusual nature of this request in our traditional therapy culture. I consulted with a colleague, raising the questions of her interests, cultural background, and potential therapeutic benefits and drawbacks. After discussing it more with her, I decided to let it take its natural course, since I also trusted both of them implicitly. She then called and visited my mother who is a very warm welcoming person as well. They visited for a bit and hit it off and both appreciated the visit. I was touched myself by her grace in the matter.
KH: Amazing. That’s unbelievable. Did it fit in any way that you understood her background and culture, I am just wondering.
RW: It felt like it was culturally congruent with her background. She was from a big close knit family back east, one of many siblings, the oldest so she had a lot of responsibility. And every year she’d have a pie for a holiday or something for my family. After her visit, there was no fallout. She appreciated and enjoyed paying her respects, honoring what happened, as she called it. She came back and told me the story and then it was part of the background and a good experience.
KH: Perfect. Looks like a match made in heaven. I struggle with this stuff because I just think that somehow, sometimes the work that we do is so incredibly boundaried that it blocks, or at least minimizes our capacity to promote healing in clients. I mean, like who’s to say that her doing that wasn’t as healing, transformative, therapeutic as anything you’ve ever said to her sitting in the office? If she gets to reach out to your mom and felt like she was giving something back, maybe that interaction was transformative for her.I remember I had a client, a poor black woman I was treating, and she had very few marketable skills as society would record them, but she was an avid baker. And I remember I happened to mention in passing one day my love for brownies, and so around the holidays she brought a dozen brownies. And she said,

“I baked these for you,” and her hands were literally shaking because she wasn’t sure about the appropriateness of it and was worried that I was going to reject it.

“I baked these for you,” and her hands were literally shaking because she wasn’t sure about the appropriateness of it and was worried that I was going to reject it. And when I took the brownies and ate one in front of her, her face lit up in a way I’d never seen before and she sat there, teared up, “Dr. Hardy, a doctor eating my brownies…”

You could tell what that meant to her. I thought about the depths of her own sense of devaluation, the fact that this powerful figure in her life could find something valuable that she did, I thought was important to her.

And despite all the worries in psychotherapy and the caution about that, there was no spillage over into other parts of the relationship. I mean, it was, you know, it was simply that she brought in the brownies. I accepted and appreciated them. We moved on. I mean, I thought trust was built in our relationship. It wasn’t anything that I usually read about in books where you take the brownies and next the person brings you a Rolex watch or keys to a Jaguar. The drama didn’t play out that way at all.

Are we not all just basically human?

RW: I teach diversity and clinical psychology myself and a common refrain that’s a challenge to diversity studies is “It’s good to study about ethnicity, race, prejudice and racism, but are we not all just basically human? Shouldn’t we be focusing on what brings us together and makes us all human? Isn’t that the way to bring justice and peace to the world?”
KH: Yes, it’s true, we’re all human. But we are so many more other things than just human, and so, yes, I want us to appreciate and hold our humanness but I also want us to hold all the other threads of who we are. So, no, we shouldn’t take that view. I think that’s something that romance novels are made out of, that belief, that ideology.I don’t know why this is a common belief that our humanness should trump all the other places and spaces where we stand to give meaning to our lives. And even what makes us human. I’m not so sure it is the same thing for each of us. Because I would say that the pain and suffering that I have experienced in my life as an African-American has helped to tremendously, significantly humanize me, that there’s a piece of my humanity that is specifically borne out of my suffering and that piece of suffering is inextricably connected to being black in this society.

I’m not convinced that we could all get together and come up with some uniform answers as to what makes us all human, because I think we’ve all traveled different paths and those paths have been significant.

I’m not convinced that we could all get together and come up with some uniform answers as to what makes us all human, because I think we’ve all traveled different paths and those paths have been significant.

And so I don’t think that the problem is paying attention to differences. I think the problem is that we—as we often do in our society—attach differential values to differences. And so the problem is not with diversity. The problem is with hierarchical dichotomized thinking, I think, that one group of people is somehow better than another based on color, gender and so on.

RW: What about the flipside, which you hear in multicultural studies where it is, explicitly or implicitly, stated that “race, ethnicity or the color of one’s skin is the most important factor and life and power should be always looked at through the lens of race, ethnicity or color.”
KH: I think those issues are contextual. I think that race has greater salience in U.S. culture in particular. But I don’t necessarily agree with that sentiment in totality. I believe that we all have multiple threads of diversity that makes us who we are, that we have to pay attention to all of them. And within any given moment or a freeze frame, it may be that race is more salient than some others. I would say race and gender, women and people of color were the only two groups in our society that historically weren’t born with the right to vote, and other built-in forms of racism and sexism, which elevates those issues to a whole different level of significance.But I generally don’t like to even get in conversations that rank isms. It’s enough to recognize that all these issues are all valuable in their own ways.

RW: You’ve done dozens of diversity trainings and a videos, including Psychological Residuals of Slavery. How do people take to your ideas? What’s your general take about what people take well to and where there’s some resistance or tentativeness or anxiety?
KH: I think that what people generally appreciate is the opportunity to discuss these very complex issues. There are very few venues in society where we can get together in cross-racially, cross-cultural, heterogeneous groups and have open, candid, in-depth conversations about things that really matter.

The anxiety is about having the cross-cultural conversation, so I think people find the greatest gift of it, the greatest attribute, is also the thing that’s most anxiety-producing.

The anxiety is about having the cross-cultural conversation, so I think people find the greatest gift of it, the greatest attribute, is also the thing that’s most anxiety-producing.

RW: Let’s take whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics. What might their anxieties commonly be?
KH: I think that whites, some whites have anxiety about being blamed, being called racist, saying the wrong thing. Those are always concerns that whites have. They come, but some whites worry that they come to be dumped on. That’s the anxiety of whites. Blacks tend to have anxiety about having wounds reopened, being on display and at the end of it, nothing changes.And I think Asians and Latinos often have had anxieties about the binary notions of race being so rigidified that there’s no place in the discussion for them, that somehow the conversations get calcified, if you will, around black/white issues and they’re left somewhere in between.

And then if they’re Asian or Latinos or others who are not U.S. born, they tend to have some anxiety about where they fit into this conversation because you have people coming here from countries where they were not thought of as people of color and come here and become a person of color.

RW: So it becomes important to facilitate Asians, Latinos and other minority groups to feel they have a voice and are part of the dialogue beyond the white/black focus.
KH: That’s right. And it creates a space for them to externally explore what feels internal, because to express one’s experience and have other people hear it and validate it is liberating and uplifting.

Cultural genogram

RW: Can you talk about the cultural genogram that you’ve developed and the role of that in diversity training and other groups?
KH: I took the standard genogram which is usually a three generational diagram that’s focused around family of origin and modified that to a cultural genogram. And so the way it’s set up is that the therapist, trainees, and participants use colors to depict the various ethnic, racial groups that comprise their family of origin and their three-generational family.You mentioned earlier that you were Italian, and so that you might say, “Well, I’m going to give Italian red.” And then, you know, if your dad was English and Native American, and your mom was Italian, then they would get different colors. So you see all these colors on the genogram, which depicts the various ethnicities that comprise a family.

So if you were doing one, as an Italian, what are the major organizing principles in Italian culture? What are the things that comprise core values for Italians across the board? What makes you most proud as an Italian, what are those things? What are things that make you feel shame about being Italian? List all of these on the board. And so the idea behind it is to help each of us become more acutely acquainted with our cultural selves, what we’re proud of and what we feel shame about. I think that, particularly for us as therapists, when we have parts of ourselves that we attempt to disavow because of shame, they inevitably come back to haunt us therapeutically.

I’m also thinking with the cultural genogram that it’s a way for every trainee to practice talking about race, class, gender, ethnicity, all those things, because all those have to be depicted on the culture genogram. And then, it’s helpful, finally, to help the person trace generational patterns that are informed by culture. So it really is designed to help the person become more knowledgeable of who they are as a cultural being.

The personal and the professional self are one

RW: You make a point in your writing to emphasize the importance of developing skills and ways to approach diversity and social justice concerns, but also personal growth and self awareness. To quote your writings: “It’s hard to separate the personal from the professional lives of the therapist, that the process of becoming sensitive begins with how each therapist lives his or her life. Once change occurs on this level, it will be manifested within the therapy process.” You said it so well there that I don’t know if you can elaborate, but can you?
KH: I solidly reject this notion that this is me out there, this is me in here. I think that we are who we are. I always tell therapists that I’m training and in my role as a professor that what we’re doing here is training you, teaching you how to be a different kind of human being and if we succeed in that, you’re going to be fine as a therapist. And so, it’s how do you embrace your own sense of humanity. Doing that is the beginning of embracing the humanity of others as a therapist and a person.
RW: Indeed, that is a lot of what psychotherapy is about. It really is foundational.
KH: Yes it is.
RW: Kenneth, I want to thank you so much for having this conversation and sharing your ideas and challenging us to go beyond the expected in therapy and life, professionally and personally.
KH: Thank you Randy, it has been a great pleasure. You brought out nuances of these questions that have made me think about them in new ways.