Long Term Psychotherapy and BPD, Part 1: A Dialogue on Hope


Question: What do you call a homeless horse with a Borderline Personality Disorder?

Answer: Unstable.
 

Introduction: What We Did

In this, the second of a two-part essay, we (Anne, the client, and Trish, the therapist) seek to share multiple perspectives of our co-writing collaboration, a process that we developed to inform our long-term therapeutic relationship’s new focus on Anne’s diagnosis of borderline personality disorder (BPD). Following on from Part 1, in which we detail the ways in which long-term therapy with Trish has had a powerfully positive impact on Anne’s (treatment for) BPD, this second part—begun 5-6 months after the first—moves into the “how” of our co-authoring experience. Through collaborating, Anne is able to practice better interpersonal relationships, which we identified in Part 1 of this essay as crucial to “building a life worth living.” The epistolary dialogue format (as in Part 1) models the importance of trust in the therapist/client relationship, especially for those with BPD, which for us has been built in a range of ways through creative collaboration. In Part 2, we explore the risks and benefits of this dialogic trust-building collaboration, and recognise the investments of all parties involved in the treatment of those with BPD.

In mid-2020, in the midst of Australia’s COVID lockdown, Anne was asked by a friend who edits a psychotherapy journal to contribute an article on their recent diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). That process is detailed in Part 1 of this essay. In Part 2, we unpack how collaborative writing is impacting our therapeutic relationship, and how humour has played a powerful role in building trust. Our creative collaboration has also raised a number of questions and negotiations, including: What risks were identified? How were these processed and resolved? How has maintaining our dual roles improved our therapeutic relationship?

We explore not only what has changed in our therapeutic relationship due to our creative collaboration, but also what has happened underneath the changes and how co-authoring (or other creative collaboration) might be useful to both therapist and client. We consider why we came to write together, the power of attuning and attending, and shifts in the therapeutic atmosphere that can result in increased trust—most powerfully, a more expansive view of each other that seems to enhance our work “in the room.” For us, humour is a “way in,” a way for us to extend the safe space of the therapeutic exchange into different kinds of relating, a movement that leads to increased trust.

We share memes and jokes about therapy, BPD, and any other topics that need to be decompressed, which establishes a common irreverent sense of humour that solidifies the trust built over time. Common factors theory suggests that the most important influence on therapeutic change is the strength of the alliance between therapist and client. Looking beyond technique and intervention, how does what happens in the room affect our co-authoring, and how does our co-authoring affect what happens for both of us in the room? As before, we use a dialogic approach to give voice to both perspectives.

Trish (she/her): I remember several months back, you had had a bad couple of days, and you were feeling particularly isolated. I wanted to reach out in some way, so I sent you a video clip showing Pepper (my therapy dog, who has been a part of our work together) magically being able to speak through a phone app, asking how you were feeling. I hesitated several times before I sent it but did it in the end. Ultimately I think it achieved what I hoped—a moment of connection through humour, extended by you, when you sent me a video of your dog replying. This happened before the idea of writing of our first article was even on the table, but there we were, extending our therapeutic alliance beyond the counselling room and into a creative/visual space.

Anne (they/them): Our psychotherapeutic relationship is predominantly a one-way listener relationship, framed by your professional training and the terms of our engagement. Is the incessant talking of the therapy client and the never-ending listening of the therapist a false centring of the client in a way the world doesn’t uphold? Like you said the other day, the few times your own selfness comes out in sessions, the client often overlooks it and is like, “Yeah, so anyway, back to me”—which, sadly, I can totally see myself doing! What if you were to say to me, in a session where I might do that, “Hey Anne! I just said something about myself, and you totally ignored it.” It might be hard for me to hear, but that is exactly what happens in real life. And what would that mean for you as a “therapist-ever-becoming” who considers what might be possible when a client is so caught up in their own woes that they miss the you-ness? A you-ness that might be able to push them further toward better interpersonal relationships?

Trish: You came in with your American swagger, already a devotee to New York style of psychotherapy, where not everyone there might have their very own barista (it’s a Melbourne thing), but they certainly have a therapist. You seemed to be willing to take a chance on me, despite some differences that might have gotten in the way. We seemed to click, conversation flowed and continued to flow in subsequent sessions. We discovered things that connected us in shared experiences in our lives apart from the mutual age bracket we found ourselves inhabiting, both having been high school teachers, both loving dogs in the same devotional kind of way. But maybe it was mostly that I really liked you as a person—your inquiring mind, your desire to make sense of things, your wry humour, your ability to narrate your life from the couch in such a way that I was drawn into the story and cared deeply about the author. Your paid work took you away on a regular basis, often for weeks or months at a time, but you would appear again at my office and we would resume. Before I knew it, we had been doing this for a couple of years and entering the realm of long-term therapy—not new to you, but not guaranteed for me, for two reasons: Australians are not so familiar with this way of receiving (long-term) psychological support, and for me as a therapist sitting outside of the Medicare system, there were no financial structures in place to subsidize the work, at times a disincentive for prospective clients. But it has always been my preferred way of working, as one who has found a fit with the relational emphasis of therapeutic work.

When therapists get together and wax lyrical about unconditional positive regard, they rarely see this as a reciprocal idea. It is considered as something bestowed on the client, flowing from a compassionate therapist. But when it is present in the therapeutic space in its fullest capacity, it emerges out of a mutual desire for the therapist and client to see each other as the best that they can be. I want to help you and I want to be seen as someone capable of that. You want help from me and need to believe that I will not let you down. I keep getting to show up again; I can say I won’t give up on you, and you give me the chance to do that through your own acceptance and trust of me. So is this shared unconditional positive regard?

Anne: I was not surprised to find out that you were a teacher—you remind me of the best teachers I knew during my 11 years teaching in high schools. I can see why the kids would be drawn to you: your sense of humor and down-to-earth vibe instantly put me at ease. Yet one thing I’m seeing in myself through the BPD diagnosis and range of treatments is how transactional I can be: i.e., you are my therapist, and because I pay you, you should be like x. Today when we were talking about you, it occurred to me that if we are talking about mutuality, it has to include a kind of benevolence in me for you, too. It doesn’t mean you have to disclose personal details as I do, but I think the interpersonal, relational mode I was talking about does mean our therapy sessions could be a space where I try out caring more about the other.

You are not just my therapist because you were there and I said yes. You also said yes. I have not just stayed—you have stayed. You have said that you feel you can help people and maybe there’s a question in there that goes beyond me just “feeling better.” I don’t literally affirm to you that you DO help me. You do. And I don’t think I affirm you or acknowledge that in the way that you do for me. What does that mean or look like coming from client to therapist? I think I would like to try some kind of “attending to” you in our next session, as a kind of practice of my learning better how to attend to others, in a non-transactional way. It feels freeing to think of improving my interpersonal skills through getting out of my own needs and trying to live more in others’ experiences or needs. I’m not sure exactly what that looks like in our therapy sessions, but I do think this is evolving in a direction in which I can practice caring for someone without it being based on my own needs, even in therapy. Which is still part of my growth in response to my BPD diagnosis.

But why did we keep writing together, and how has it increased each person’s feeling of “being seen” in a more fulsome manner? Initially, it made sense for Anne to ask Trish to co-write the article for the psychotherapy journal, given she is Anne’s therapist and had played such a profound role in Anne’s diagnostic journey. But what we found was something more than a narration of how long-term psychotherapy might help those with BPD.

Trish and Anne started co-writing online while maintaining fortnightly therapy sessions, as face-to-face sessions had been prohibited by home isolation. During this time Anne was also completing their Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DBT) program remotely, which had life-changing effects. We also acknowledge that we are producing writing that is going to have a public audience, and that now that shapes our creative collaboration in important ways.

We have tried writing separately and then sharing what we had written at a later point, as Irvin Yalom and his client “Ginny” did in Every Day Gets a Little Closer (1), but ultimately returned to co-authoring in a shared Google doc that has a satisfying interactivity and vibrancy. One aspect of the collaboration that emerged from the beginning is the humorous banter that we both enjoy. It is present in our therapy sessions, too, but not to the extent that it has bloomed in our tracked comments while writing together. So alive was that back-and-forth that we tried to include the tracked comments in the final draft of that first article, but it didn’t feel right; the spontaneity was lost once the time stamps and overlaps in the marginalia were formalised into the body of the essay.

The fluidity of being able to write into the same document, and comment on each others’ and our own writing, seemed to form a big part of the energy of the shared work. Trish identified “rooftop moments” and other important insights that emerged in the writing. We both flagged passages that brought tears.

________________________
(1) Every Day Gets a Little Closer

Trish: Anne, you pose such interesting questions about this creative process and why it works. It takes me back to our earlier discussions as we explored the issue of the power dynamic in the client-therapist relationship. It is a strange beast because it seems like it is both needed and rebelled against simultaneously. Sometimes, as a client, you want me to firmly take the reins and show you the way, and at other times you are aware that as you bare your life to me, I keep mine under wraps. You step into a vulnerable space and I have a boundary that keeps me safe. And I want to offer support and guidance but reject labels like “expert” and get cosy with terms like Yalom’s “fellow travellers.” “Do you think our writing together altered an established power dynamic?” For in that space I saw you as the authority and looked to you to have the answers on how the work would come together. I completely trusted that you would take us to where we needed to be with our first article. How does it feel for us to exchange leadership roles as we move from one space to the other? I encourage you and affirm your resolute commitment to wellness, as you face the parts of you that still flare up at times and remind you of the hell that is other people. (2) Then you encourage me and applaud certain passages that I write. You take note of my hesitancy and respond with patience and curiosity, perhaps in a similar way to how you do with your own students. So we redefine the terms of engagement. We allow the spaces of therapy and writing to co-inform one another, as this most human of relationships draws on all of its strengths to bring out the best in each of us. As Yalom (3)  reminds us:
 

This encounter, the very heart of psychotherapy, is a caring, deeply human meeting between two people, one (generally, but not always, the patient) more troubled than the other. Therapists have a dual role: they must both observe and participate in the lives of their patients. As observer, one must be sufficiently objective to provide necessary rudimentary guidance to the patient. As participant, one enters into the life of the patient and is affected and sometimes changed by the encounter. In choosing to enter fully into each patient’s life, I, the therapist, not only am exposed to the same existential issues as are my patients, I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing, and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.


________________________
(2) No Exit and Three Other Plays
(3) Love’s Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy


Trish: In a recent supervision session with my supervisee James, who works at an in-patient setting, we were reflecting on how patients there form a trusting alliance with the staff. James happens to be blessed with a benevolent warmth, and his presence is therapeutic before he even opens his mouth. He shared his thoughts about the negative impact on patients if they experience the mental health professionals as taking a position that is “above” them—whether that be in the way they dress or speak, or in the attitude that they convey—“I could never be in your shoes.” For James, what is important is the recognition that we can all find ourselves pushed beyond our capacity to cope and experience being unwell. That we need to have a willingness to “also see myself in their story.” Anne, it got me thinking about what you wrote in our first article—that BPD is a disorder of separation. And I wonder how it is possible to trust anyone if you feel so distant from them? As we grapple with understanding how our writing together built trust, it dawned on me that this process has been highlighting the ways in which we are similar rather than different.

Psychiatrist to his nurse: “Just say we’re very busy. Don’t keep saying, ‘It’s a madhouse.’”


When psychotherapy has an interpersonal focus, it can be described as paying attention to the interactions between client and therapist, as well as providing an opportunity for practising a more satisfying relationship that then gets taken into the real world of the client. So what is going on in our writing process, including in the comments? We agree it’s an alternative form of “the real world,” organically appearing out of the mutuality of the co-creative work. Through the collaboration, Anne starts to see Trish as a “fuller human being” with her own wants, needs, ideas, resulting in more trust of Trish. Trish reports seeing Anne also as a fuller person, in their element, strength and power, a kind of agency. We both express how the increased interactions are not necessarily about more stories of our personal lives, but rather an experience of “a different me.” For us both, we have an increased sense of how the other is with other people.

Anne asks Trish questions like, “How does it feel to be a subject with a client? To take up space?”

We both ask, “How much is too much?”

Trish has been thinking a lot about this in the last couple of days, about self disclosure as the therapist, and bringing more of the “real self” into therapy. She says,

 

I thought about your saying that you saw me as a ‘fuller human being’ through the writing process and it made us wonder what that would look like, i.e. to have Trish the fuller human being in the therapy sessions. There is always a risk that something may not work out the way you want it to. Including this collaboration.


For Trish there is tension about whether Anne could still trust her to help them in the therapy space if they see her vulnerable and feeling out of her depth in the writing space. This feels risky but also highly challenging to how she sees herself as a therapist. Trish’s previous self-image as being authentic and honest is tempering with the recognition that there are parts still held back. This important self-examination leads Trish to grapple with the boundary of what becomes known, foregrounding always that whatever she offers of herself still needs to be of therapeutic value. The added role of “collaborator” has both personal and therapeutic benefits for Anne. A healthy intimate relationship means both can safely be vulnerable with the other and know it can be held and ultimately strengthen the relationship, not damage it. The therapeutic potential is that if this happens with Trish, it can strengthen with others in Anne’s life.


Anne: I find it challenging to trust people who remain “distant,” as a therapist may appear, because it feels like rejection and elicits feelings of vulnerability. Navigating these secondary co-creative roles is tricky but feels reassuring to me, and the trust between us seems to increase. In therapy sessions, I am the one with issues, difficult feelings, vulnerability, who looks for support and understanding. You are the one who listens and focuses on how best to meet the needs that I express. So how is it that despite us writing about the therapy, our roles still shift? I often take the lead in the co-authoring, which is not surprising given my professional expertise. I am able to share information with you, Trish, around the process of writing together and send you co-written autoethnographic articles as examples—a classic example of table-turning, you tell me, when we reflect on the times you have sent me articles of a psychological nature in relation to our therapeutic work.

Psychotherapy is often described in the person-centred school as a respectful, collaborative, teamwork-like approach. In this way, the client-therapist team builds their alliance and works together, but—and this is a major distinction—it is all in the service of the growth of the client. And fair enough, given there is a fee attached. But it would be a deception to suggest that the therapist does not grow as well, or, as Yalom says, is not changed or affected by the work, or doesn’t think about the client beyond the therapy hour. How much of this knowledge is—or should be—available to the client? Do they even want to know?

Trish: Anne, you made a comment about not realising how much was going on “behind the scenes” in our sessions. This was probably in response to my talking about a certain approach I might take with a certain goal in mind. Do you think it is helpful for a client to know that what their therapist is doing is reparenting them, or providing empathic attunement, or providing a secure base that was lacking in childhood? I just can’t imagine a client caring about the what, as long as it works, but when I think about talking with other therapists about this work and leaving my clients out of the conversation, it seems ridiculous! I find myself imagining a conversation with fellow therapists:

Me: “Hey therapist colleagues, let me tell you about this great intervention I did the other day in a session…”

Therapist colleagues: “Oh cool…but how do you know it was great? Did you ask the client?”

Me: “Well… no… but, it’s in this book I read.”

Therapist colleagues: ‘“Yeah but how do you know it actually helped the client?”

Me: “Um… well, they probably don’t know it helped them… but… oh, shut up.”


Anne: I wonder at the disjunct between therapists’ acknowledgement that clients need to feel that you are not “above” us, are not inherently different from us, versus how infrequently clients seem to feel this sense of equality, accessibility, or sameness. As in James’ commentary above, I recognise the commitment in you, Trish, and others, to convey a sense of solidarity with clients; I also recognise what you have suggested many times, that clients do need that sense of being held, that the therapist is “holding things together” so that we can be vulnerable. Where is the balance between feeling this as hierarchical, and feeling in it together?

Trish: Anne, you are right that the balance is hard to find, particularly if there isn’t a dialogue between client and therapist about what is actually happening in the space together. As Yalom and others have often noted, it can be hard to know what helps in therapy, and I think quite often a therapist will have a different idea to the client about what was helpful, useful, or powerful in any given session. Sometimes a client will say to me, “When you said that thing last week, I found that really helpful.” And often I think, “Well actually, I didn’t quite say it like that, and it’s not what I meant, but OK. But didn’t you like it when I said this bit? You don’t remember that? Damn, I thought that was the good part…”


Cracking Ourselves Up: Enhancing Trust with Humour

Question: How many psychotherapists does it take to change a light bulb?

Answer: Probably just one, as long as it takes responsibility for its own change. This could be called having “a light bulb moment.”


Laughter has always been part of our therapeutic relationship, and we wonder as we go along what doorway this has opened to increasing trust. Our joking in the document is more frequent, but also a bit different in nature: more feeding off of one another, whereas in the room it’s a bit more measured. We are curious about the many roles humour seems to play between us in our dual roles. We discuss how—in the room—humour can also be a mechanism for deflecting, or keeping things on a more superficial level, and in this way is not always welcome. Nevertheless, once we begin our online interaction, the spontaneous humour grows. Trish writes of a time when she took a holiday and arranged for another staff member at the agency where she worked to see her clients if needed. The audacity of counsellors leaving clients in order to have some leisure time doesn’t go unnoticed by Anne in our track comments in the first article:

[Anne: how dare you LOL]

[Trish: How very BPD of you :)]

[Anne: LOL GUFFAW I think we may have a stand up routine by the end of this.]

[Trish: I know right? The side comments are almost as interesting as the article!!]


In this exchange, our shared humour strikes at the heart of the very condition that has caused Anne such anguish, and yet creates a moment of freedom as the heaviness of the label is discarded, all the while noticing that humour and pathos are indeed good friends. We agree that one reason both our irreverent humour and the creative collaboration work well is because it has emerged out of our pre-existing therapeutic relationship of almost six years. The trust and foundations were there before we altered our relationship, and Anne notes that widespread perceptions of BPD make it likely that such humour about the disorder would be hard to share with a therapist in a less established relationship.

One wall we have mutually hit together is a feeling of “too much”ness after the first essay, when we decided to continue writing together as well as still maintaining therapy sessions. The dual roles and time commitments of both soon felt too demanding, and we were able to talk about that openly and put some boundaries around it.



Trish: Anne, I recall that experience of “too much”ness was precipitated by your writing into our shared document about a dream you had had about me. I commented on how much was in the dream to be examined, but it seemed to be therapeutically, not creatively, relevant. Back then I wondered whether the writing together was blurring the therapeutic line in a confusing way. But now I think we see the line and we choose to walk along it courageously. I see an image of a tightrope walker, holding a long pole for balance. I wonder what the pole is representative of in our work together?

This experience caused us to recognise that we needed careful negotiation around how much and when we enact both roles: for example, do we collaborate while Anne is still a client? Do we have writing sessions and therapy sessions in the same week/month? After a time, we started to realise that they were folding back into one another in an iterative process that was becoming productive for both the writing and therapy, but we continue to monitor the efficacy of maintaining both roles simultaneously.


“Being Seen” through Creative Collaboration

Through humour especially, we both express a powerful feeling of being seen by the other, in deeper if not new ways. The feeling of “being seen” is, of course, a major part of the value of psychotherapy to a client, and was a strong part of Anne’s experience of therapy with Trish before the co-writing started. We decide to explore bringing some of this “whole person” or more interactive dynamic back into our therapy sessions, admitting that neither of us are quite sure what this will look like. We discuss how we might chip away at the “one-wayness,” the illusion of the therapist having no needs, feelings, investment. We consider questions like:

Is Trish always therapist Trish, even when we are co-writing?

What in that therapy space is different or the same?


It is confusing for us both at times, often in different ways.


Trish: I wonder, “Well what IS bringing more into the room?” I believe that my emotional responses are already an act of bringing myself. It is my standard practice to share things like “I’m aware that I’m feeling quite sad as you tell me this.”

We wonder together: what if we were writing a novel instead, or painting a picture? We are writing about our therapy, not something else, so it reinforces the therapeutic relationship. We reflect on the fact that Trish is also a teacher and practice supervisor, and in those roles she encourages her students to be prepared to walk the talk, to consider the ethics of asking clients to go further than they’ll go themselves. We begin to acknowledge our investment in each other.

Of course, our creative collaboration presents challenges as well as benefits. What if it dissolves, runs out of steam, or there is a creative rupture? We discuss the value of this changed way of working, despite the risks. We discuss whether writing about this will be of benefit to other client/therapist teams, and, if this multi-directionality in our sessions doesn’t work for all clients, whether it is still a worthy experiment to share publicly.


Anne: One reason why I have this trust of you is because you have hung in there, not rejecting me, through so many difficult times. And why wasn’t my treatment of you as challenging as so many others in my life? My hard behaviour, I think, is triggered by feeling rejected or judged. But rejection and judging is part of life. So how does unconditional acceptance (“unconditional positive regard”) by you help me handle rejection in the real world? One of the ways I’m suggesting is to regard you with care as a whole person, not just a “therapist.” That is, not just “there for me.” In thinking about this over the last little while, I believe the improvement in much of my behaviour comes from my starting to regard others as whole human beings with their own needs and validity, whether they reject me or not, meet my needs or not. How can I increase my ability to put myself aside and regard others in a less transactional way? If I were to do this with you in our sessions, what does that look like? Certainly not your therapy, or therapy about you. But maybe it’s more like, “How does it feel to you when I just talk the whole session?” or “Do I hurt your feelings?” or “Am I boring you right now?” Maybe attending to you (and others) is holding the dialectic of “My feelings are hurt right now, but I can also attend to your hurt feelings at the same time, or even first.” Part of improving my interpersonal relationships, I think, is being able to perceive my impact on people.

Trish: The process of writing the article with you has provoked me to re-examine the firmly boundaried position of this understood one-way process. No person-centred therapist wants to be a blank screen, and I have always believed I bring my genuine self to the therapy process with clients. Being willing to be more explicit about my internal responses to things you might say to me, rather than hold some therapeutic high ground as I bracket them off, seems like an important way forward.

We agree that it should be as intentional as setting some ground rules for the experiment. Trish suggests regular check-ins, like asking “How is this going right now?” Anne wonders how productive setting ground rules or negotiating terms of relationships might have been in other relationships or friendships, too; maybe with such agreements those relationships would have gone better. Trish suggests to Anne, “See? You are now connecting what we are doing in therapy to your life in the real world, i.e. negotiating with people around the types of interactions you have—what works for both. So here is therapy on the page.”


Mutually Revealing

One day after a co-writing session, Trish scribbles some notes, including:

Explore in what ways (even without Anne knowing) the relationship between us has been therapeutic:

  • Corrective emotional experience
  • Being there
  • Not abandoning
  • Staying with

…and that these things build trust.

Trish: I believe that so much of what a therapist does with clients is to provide a corrective emotional experience. When there is abuse or neglect or misattunement early in life, the therapy of care and unconditional positive regard gives the client the feeling of what it is like to be held. So for you, Anne, maybe some of that was to not have to listen to someone else and validate them (in the way you did for your adoptive mother) in order to feel worthy. That you get to have the experience of this for yourself. In some ways, it is not so important that it isn’t the “real world” but the world of the therapy room. The emotions are real. That I attend to you is real. And you don’t have to be “good” (thanks, Mary Oliver) in order to feel this. And feeling this with me might then motivate you to know that it is possible, and that maybe you can also feel it in your “real” life.


I have been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days, and I have formed the belief that we needed to do this work (i.e. corrective emotional experience) before we could move into a space of being more overtly interpersonal. Trust is needed for that. I have often wanted to challenge some of my other clients with Borderline features to have a look at certain aspects of themselves and their behaviour that might impact other people, or even me, negatively, but I have found that there is a risk of their fragmenting. If someone already has a fragile sense of self, a suggestion that they could do something differently can be experienced as “I am a bad person.” So it is interesting that we are contemplating this experiment of giving the space between us more attention. Perhaps you feel secure enough in our relationship now to let me challenge you. If I let you see that I have reactions to what you do or say, that it actually affects me, I believe that you can hold this information and stay intact.

Anne: I have been thinking a lot for the past five days about my saying to you to “get over it.” One thing I’ve noticed with myself (is it the BPD?) is that sometimes I don’t intend to, but I am still quite harsh. I have always laughed this off as my New Yorker brusqueness. But is that an excuse for rudeness and not wanting to change? I’m sorry, Trish, that I spoke to you in that way. This is my being accountable interpersonally, even in a therapy session. I meant to encourage you. And I do think you are fearless in going to these places that are not the norm in the Australian context, and I love that and was trying to encourage you, but it came out in a rude and insulting way.

Trish: Twice now you have thought you might have offended me or been rude to me, and twice I have not felt offended or hurt. I wonder what you saw to think that you hurt me? An expression on my face, perhaps? Something in my response? Actually, I feel that on both occasions you were suggesting that maybe I could be more—an invitation to think big. And yet you think you were being dismissive or hurtful. I remember your saying recently that sometimes you find it hard to tell whether some communication between you and others is rude/aggressive or not. And then you might have to backtrack and check it out. I promise if you are nasty to me, I will tell you at the time and we can work out whether you meant it or not. You were witnessing my own discomfort with ambition. You didn’t cause it, you’re not the bad guy in this scenario. I am noticing and appreciating how you are thinking about the impact your words may have had on me.

Anne: I think it’s important to me that both of us acknowledge that there is fear perhaps around my BPD, because it is not only a disorder of separation, it is also a disorder of dysregulated emotions and behaviours. Through our work together and the safety of that, I am becoming more able to acknowledge the harms I have done to others and myself, harms that I can now feel regret and sadness about. That includes times I have hurt you in our work together, too, Trish. This doesn’t mean I won’t lash out (again). And as safe as I feel with you, we both know I have lashed out most often against those who are closest to me. So I recognise the courage it takes for you to continue to show up when you have witnessed so many of my hurtful behaviours to others, and sometimes experienced them yourself. That is brave, and I recognise the risk to you.

It is good and important to work together to improve my ability to calibrate my impact on others—to perceive it more clearly, perhaps—but also to model to other therapists that someone with BPD may be frightening or erratic, yes, but we can also be deeply reflective, resilient, empathic, courageous, and hungry to change. And we can care about you, even when we are mired in our own pain. And that this care for you can provide an important window to re-engaging with a world that is sometimes overwhelming for us.

Trish: You talk about acknowledging our fear around your BPD, and I wonder if it is the same for us both? You fear that you will still injure others, including me, despite how far you have come. I also fear that you could hurt me, too, might lash out at me despite the safety of our relationship. And as our therapeutic connection deepens, I take my place as someone at risk of being hurt by you. So how do we hold this fear in a way that makes sense? It brings to mind the dialectic of the work. Where there is fear, there is also bravery; where there is safety, there is also risk. And of course, as always, there is the knowing and the not knowing. It is inevitable that we hurt or disappoint the people who mean the most to us. We will do wrong, it is the nature of the imperfect relationships in which we all engage. And that brings us back to trust. With trust we are able to stay in touch with the resilience and perseverance that we see in one another, which makes repair and recovery possible. So when you care for me, and for others in their turn, know that what you are doing is an ongoing process of recreating a secure base that is at the very heart of what we all yearn for when we love and feel loved in return.


Epilogue: Returning to Embodiment—March 2021

Anne: I’m glad I came to your office today. It has been a long time since we have shared space, and so much has happened in the interim, with COVID and multiple lockdowns. I was aware of you again as a changing human person, and the affective intensity of proximity. I think one reason I felt moved today was not just about the content we were discussing, but about the relationship and the exchange. It is, as Tara Brach would say, sacred ground, where people feel seen and heard. It’s so powerful. That room is a powerful sacred space for me.

Do I have anxiety about going backward, now that my DBT has finished? Disappointing you? Being disappointed by you? Of course! That’s every relationship, surely. Today I just felt moved by the proximity, the laughing—so much laughter!—the attending, the eye contact, the ambient noises, the longevity, the commitment, and the hope, even when I can’t find exactly who I am. And also the power of the room itself. That familiar room—the white blinds, your desk, cup, computer. The little table by the couch, the bin. Pepper had died during lockdown, and I felt his absence so strongly in the room. The environment matters, and I can see it now as another expression of you, of another way of your “bringing yourself” to your clients.

Trish: Yes, it was pretty powerful being together in person today. There was a certain energy which may well have been about how long it has been since we took up the chair and the couch, or perhaps about the added layer of the creative space that we are sharing as we write, knowing that our words on screen find calibration with the ones we speak to one another. Were you more aware of me than you have been in the past? You have said you wanted to be able to hold space for others while you navigate your own emotional space. I think I noticed a subtle shift—while you certainly wanted some thoughts from me about what was going on for you, there was something different, more of an ease in you and a space created for me. And somehow I felt that even though I didn’t really have a clear answer for you, I was still offering you something, and you saw that (and subsequently wrote about it). This work together is making me examine myself in the most profound way, and if I want you to do it, then I will, too. Maybe I am also trying to find out exactly who I am when I am in a therapeutic encounter with you. I know one thing, I will trust the journey.

Anne: I was more aware of wondering what techniques you may have been using, and why. That relational aspect that I had never really thought much about before our co-authoring. I assumed the therapist just showed up and it was a one-way thing. I’m enjoying this change in my awareness: not only in terms of acknowledging what you are bringing, but also for me, thinking relationally about you. You exist. You are thinking and feeling things, not just absorbing. I also think we had a lot more eye contact yesterday than usual, that was something I was aware of. And also the laughing… Why do you think we laughed more yesterday than usual? My perspective is that it was just a bit of happiness to see you again, and also I felt you laughed more than usual and that felt like a kind of openness from you.
 

***
 

As recently as 2015, at the end of Creatures of a Day, Yalom  (4) reminds us that even in the United States, these kinds of relational accounts are all too rare and
 

not generally available in contemporary curricula. Most training programs today (often under pressure by accreditation boards or insurance companies) offer instruction only in brief, “empirically validated” therapies that consist of highly specific techniques addressing discrete diagnostic categories… I worry that this current focus in education will ultimately result in losing sight of the whole person and that the humanistic, holistic approach I used with these ten patients may soon become extinct. Though research on effective psychotherapy continually shows that the most important factor determining outcome is the therapeutic relationship, the texture, the creation, and the evolution of this relationship are rarely a focus of training in graduate programs.


For Trish and Anne, this focus on our creative collaboration allows a deepening of trust and strengthening of our relational dynamics. Trish (and sometimes both of us now) uses many of the suggestions Yalom offers for calling attention to the bond between patient and therapist including: doing process checks, inquiring about the state of the encounter during the session, Trish’s asking if Anne has questions for her. Through creative collaboration, trusting in the here and now becomes multi-modal and multi-directional in ways that can offer new forms of corrective emotional experience. It has also firmly established a secure base, the core purpose of strong and trusting client-therapist relationships, never more important (and challenging) than with clients with Borderline Personality Disorder.
________________________
(4) Creatures of a Day and Other Tales of Psychotherapy

Treating the Compulsive Personality: Transforming Poison into Medicine

One summer during my analytic training, I committed myself to study, outline, and completely internalize Nancy McWilliams’s Psychoanalytic Diagnosis (1994). The idea that you could be more effective with clients by understanding their specific patterns ran contrary to the anti-diagnosis attitude at my training institute. But it appealed to my eagerness to be helpful.

Not long after I began, I recognized myself in the chapter on the obsessive-compulsive personality. While I didn’t meet the DSM-5 criteria for obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD), I certainly had my compulsive traits: perfectionism, over-working, and planning, just to name the obvious. McWilliams’ description elucidated who I could have become, had I not had a supportive family and lots of analysis to rein in those tendencies.

But this wasn’t just personal or theoretical. I recognized the collection of traits found in the personality style in my many driven, Type A, and perfectionistic clients working in law, finance, and publishing in work-crazed midtown Manhattan. And I saw the suffering it caused.

The Unrecognized Stepchild of Personality Disorders

Captivated by the subject, I eventually got involved in some online OCPD support groups. There, I read many stories of people who thought they had OCD for years before finally realizing that their entire personality was characterized by compulsive tendencies. They had known that their struggles weren’t just with specific obsessions and compulsions, but that was the only diagnosis they were aware of that was even close to describing them. And in many cases, OCD was the diagnosis a clinician had given them.

This pattern of misdiagnosis became even clearer once I began receiving comments and emails from people reading my new blog, The Healthy Compulsive Project, and my book, The Healthy Compulsive.

While OCPD is one of the most frequently occurring personality disorders of the ten listed in the DSM, it is under-recognized and probably underdiagnosed (Koutoufa & Furnman, 2014). Far too often, it’s confused with OCD by both the public and clinicians. One study indicates that the lack of recognition of the condition leads to a lack of empathy for it (McIntosh & Paulson, 2019). And far more people suffer from obsessive-compulsive personality traits than those who meet the full criteria.

It doesn’t help that it’s ego syntonic not just for the sufferer, but to some extent for our culture as well. Capitalism doesn’t care if you work too hard. According to psychologist and researcher Anthony Pinto (2016), there is no empirically validated gold standard treatment for OCPD. I suspect that this is a function both of our tolerance of it and of the difficulty in treating it.

What’s the Meaning of This?

As I filtered all of this through my training as a Jungian analyst, my curiosity about the underlying meaning of the disorder was piqued. Jung emphasized the importance of asking what symptoms and neuroses were for. What potentially adaptive purpose did symptoms serve in the patient’s life, or for humankind at large? Could there be meaning under something so destructive? Was there some underlying attempt to move toward individuation gone awry?

Looking up the etymology underlying the word “compulsion,” I realized that it wasn’t originally a bad thing. A compulsion is an urge that’s almost uncontrollable. A drive or force. And that’s not all bad. Many of these urges lead to creative and productive behavior. But “before I could find any possible light in the condition, I had to acknowledge how dark it could be”.

The Cost of OCPD

The more I observed the world of the obsessive-compulsive personality, the more I came to see its destructive potential. A review of OCPD by Deidrich & Voderholzer (2015) tells us that people who have OCPD often have other diagnoses as well, including anxiety, depression, substance-abuse, eating disorders, and hypochondriasis. OCPD amplifies these other conditions and makes them harder to treat. People with OCPD have higher than average rates of depression and suicide and score lower on a test called the Reasons for Living Inventory (Deidrich & Voderholzer, 2015).

Medical expenses for people with OCPD are substantially higher than those with other conditions such as depression and anxiety. And the study indicating this only included people who had sought treatment—which excludes the many with more serious cases who don’t (Deidrich & Voderholzer, 2015).

The cost for couples and families is great. People who are at the unhealthy end of the compulsive spectrum can be impossible to live with. They can become mean, bossy and critical, and their need to control often contributes to divorce. Much of the correspondence I receive is from partners of people with OCPD who are at the end of their rope, looking desperately for hope that their partner can change.

Parents with OCPD often place unreasonable demands on their children. This can interfere with developing secure attachment and may also increase the chances of a child’s developing an eating disorder.

It also causes problems in the workplace. While some compulsives are very productive, others become so perfectionistic that they can’t get anything done. Still others prevent their coworkers from getting anything done because their criticism disrupts productivity.

Similar problems happen in other organizations such as volunteer groups and religious institutions. People with compulsive tendencies often become involved in community groups, and they’re so convinced that they’re completely right, and that they should control everything, that they contribute to the deterioration of the organization, partially because others don’t want to work with them (Deidrich & Voderholzer, 2015).

Just as disturbing is knowing of the many personal, community, and cultural benefits that the condition prevents when it hijacks energy that would otherwise have led to leadership, creativity, and productivity. Compulsives can be movers and shakers, but instead they often end up being blockers and disruptors. The people who shape the world are the ones with the most determination, not the ones with the best ideas. And compulsives have lots of determination.

The Adaptive Perspective on OCPD

As I looked more deeply into the condition, I could see that the original intention beneath compulsive control is positive: compulsives are compelled to grow, lead, create, produce, protect, and repair. It seemed to me that the obsessive or compulsive personality is not fundamentally neurotic, but a set of potentially adaptive, healthy, constructive, and fulfilling characteristics that have gone into overdrive.

I’m certainly not the only one to make this observation. A dimensional perspective of personality disorders is gaining momentum (Haslam, 2003). But this viewpoint is still sorely needed for sufferers, partners, and clinicians.

Realizing that evolutionary psychology might provide an understanding of the adaptive potential of obsessive-compulsive tendencies, I contacted psychologist Steven Hertler, who has been on the front lines of thought in this area. His ideas resonated with what I had suspected about the survival benefits of obsessive-compulsive tendencies: the behavior that those genes led to made it more likely that the offspring of those with the genes would survive (Hertler, 2015). For instance, being meticulous and cautious is part of what Hertler (2015) refers to as a “slow-life strategy,” which increases the likelihood that those genes will be handed down.

Most importantly, though, a perspective which highlights the possible benefits of a compulsive personality style has significant clinical benefits. Conveying the possible advantages of this character style to clients lowers defensiveness and encourages change.

There is a wide spectrum of people with compulsive personality, with unhealthy and maladaptive on one end, and healthy and adaptive on the other end. Clients on the unhealthy end of the spectrum can be very defensive about their condition. They tend to think in black-and-white terms, good and bad, and their sense of security is dependent on believing that they are all the way on the good side. This makes it hard for them to acknowledge their condition, enter therapy, and get engaged in treatment. When they do come in, it’s usually because their partner is pressuring them, or because they have become burned-out or depressed.

If we are to help people suffering from obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, we need to find a way to get under their defenses so that they can make use of therapy. When we understand and convey that OCPD is a maladaptive version of something much more positive, we begin to forge a good working relationship.

But as therapists, we should also acknowledge that some individuals are so far to the unhealthy end of the continuum that even if they were to enter therapy, we might not be able to help them. It was important for me, at least, to be realistic, so that I didn’t set myself up to feel that I had failed if I wasn’t able to help someone.

Characteristics of the Obsessive-Compulsive Personality

The DSM-5 says that OCPD is defined by a “preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental & interpersonal control at the expense of flexibility, openness, & efficiency” (American Psychiatric Association, 2013). It goes on to list eight criteria; since these criteria are readily available, I won’t list them here. But I do want to emphasize what the DSM-5 (2013) points out in the first criteria: people with OCPD are preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost. I have found this to be a defining characteristic of people on the unhealthy end of the compulsive spectrum—they’ve lost the point of their rules and efforts to control. They’ve lost their original intention, the thing they first felt compelled to do.

I remember being struck the first time I noticed this. A female client was talking about how she had berated some people for not following the rules. It struck me that she was so adamant about the rules that she had forgotten who the rules were meant to help and protect—the very people she was berating.

One goal of treatment should be to help clients recover, or uncover for the first time, the original impulse, the deeper motivation that has compelled them. I may be biased because I practice psychodynamic treatment, but it seems to me that because OCPD affects the entire personality, psychodynamic treatment will be the most effective. I say this because cognitive and behavioral treatments are most effective for very specific issues, less so for the sort of global issues that characterize OCPD.

But those of us who work psychoanalytically may need to budge a little on maintenance of the frame, disclosure, the use of goals, and our reluctance to diagnose. Just as the saying “the only way to peace is peace” goes, “the only way to flexibility is flexibility.” We need to be mindful of our own personal need to control, and a certain rigor that our training may have encouraged: we might think or feel that we are doing the “right” thing by following the rules. But in particular aspects of the work with compulsives, we may gain more through example than through analysis.

Eight Key Points

I’ve found that there are particular themes and tasks that I usually need to work through with compulsive clients over time. I don’t believe that these are unique to OCPD, but rather that they usually require more emphasis than might with other conditions. I outline these below with the suggestion that they be used in a flexible and organic way, rather than as hard and fast steps.

In each of these steps I try to enlist clients’ adaptive compulsive characteristics to foster change.

  1. Create a narrative respecting inborn characteristics. To help compulsives diminish insecurity and develop self-acceptance, “I’ve found that it is important to create a narrative which distinguishes authentic, organic aspects of their personality” from those which were the result of their environment. Compulsives are born with traits such as perfectionism, determination, and attention to detail. They usually like constructive projects, and this can be a joint project that nurtures the working therapeutic relationship.
  2. Identify the coping strategy they adopted. If there was a poor fit between the client and his or her parents, the child may have used their inborn tendencies, such as perfectionism, drive, or self-restraint, to find favor and to feel more secure. Most unhealthy compulsives become so when their energy and talent are hijacked and enlisted to prevent feelings of shame and insecurity, and to prove that they are worthy of respect, inclusion, and connection.
  3. Identify when their coping strategy is still used to cope with anxiety. Recognize if and how they still use that coping strategy as an adult. Most coping strategies used to ward off anxiety will diminish if the anxiety is faced head on rather than avoided with compulsions.
  4. Address underlying insecurity. Question their self-criticism and replace it with appreciation for their inherent individual strengths, rather than pathologizing or understanding them as reactive or defensive. Reframe their personality as potentially constructive. I’ve seen this perspective help many people as they participate in OCPD support groups.
  5. Help clients shift to a more “bottom-up” psychology. Nurture their capacity to identify emotions and learn from them rather than use compulsive behavior to avoid them. Help them to identify and live out the original sources of their compulsion, such as service, creation, and repair, actions that would give their lives more meaning. Help them to make choices based on how things feel rather than how they look.
  6. Identify what’s most important. Most compulsives have either lost track of what’s most important to them, or never knew. Projects and righteousness that they imagine will impress others fill the vacuum. Instead, once they can feel what they were naturally compelled to do, they can use their determination to fulfill it in a more satisfying way.
  7. Identify personality parts. Compulsives try to live in a way that is entirely based on direction from the superego, and they attempt to exclude other aspects of their personality. I have found it very helpful to have them to label the dominant voices in their head (Perfectionist, Problem Solver, Slavedriver), and to identify other personality parts that have been silenced or who operate in a stealth way. Depending on what the client is most comfortable with, we can use terms from Transactional Analysis (Parent, Adult, Child), Internal Family Systems (Exiles, Managers, Firefighters), or a Jungian/archetypal perspective (Judge, Persona, Orphan).
  8. Use the body, the present moment, and the therapeutic relationship. Compulsives rarely experience the present and usually drive their bodies as vehicles rather than nurture them. Bringing their attention to their moment-to-moment experience and using their experience of you as their therapist can help. For instance, bring their attention to tension in their body and, if possible, connect that with any feelings that they have about you. For instance, do they feel a need to comply with you, or any resentment about complying with you?

The Case of Bart

Background

A man in his early forties, whom I will call Bart, came to see me when his wife said she could no longer tolerate his worrying and unhappiness. To his own surprise, he found himself tearing up as he described his life to me. He didn’t do that kind of thing. Ever.

Bart was handsome, fit and bright. Yet he was very self-deprecating.

He told me that he worked in finance and had done well enough to provide comfortably for his family. But his success didn’t register with him at all. He worried about what others thought of him. He feared that people would discover that he was a hoax at his job; he believed his success was accidental and that he could lose it all at any time. At this point in his career, he was just coasting and didn’t find any meaning or challenge in it.

Bart imagined that his family tolerated him only because he provided for them. During our initial consultation, he said he wasn’t feeling bad. But it was clear that he had experienced serious depression in the past, and I suspected that he was still depressed but couldn’t acknowledge it.

His wife was lively, talkative, and highly social, but their relationship was flat at best. He made it a point to say that he did not want to blame her for any of his problems or theirs as a couple. Nor did he want to assign any blame to his parents. Any problems he had were of his own making.

He admitted that he found it difficult to engage feelings. He avoided reflection, journaling, and talking. Like most compulsives, he controlled not just the outer world, but also his inner world. It was hard for him to tolerate uncertainty.

He played organized sports about four days a week, and he had great difficulty tolerating any mistakes on the field or court. He constantly monitored success and failure with a scoreboard in his head. He had quit playing golf because he got too upset when he didn’t play well.

At the end of our initial consultation, I told him that it seemed to me that while he had adapted very well to the external world, he had not adapted well to his inner world. Achieving that would be one of the goals of our work together. I was confident that if he could put the same energy and attention that he had put into career success into his psychological well being, he would see change.

He told me that his impressions of therapy were based on media examples and that he didn’t have any idea how this worked. I told him that I was glad he was asking because we as therapists don’t always do a good job of explaining how the therapeutic process works. I agreed to be transparent about the course of our work, to share how I believed we needed to proceed, and to explain the rationale behind my suggestions. In particular, I would try to be clear about his role in the work.

Narrative

His mother was depressed and a classic martyr. Masochistic, even. She seemed to enjoy her suffering. His father worked as a salesman and was willful, driven, and judgmental. He insisted on success: winning was his religion. For Bart this meant that if his behavior didn’t lead to points on the scoreboard in terms of some productivity or success, it was meaningless. His father said, “it’s good to win.” Bart extended this to “it’s terrible to lose.”

Bart internalized the strategies of both parents, and it caused a terrible conflict: he had imperatives both to lose and suffer (his mother’s masochism), and to win and achieve (his father’s need to triumph). He chose to be more like his father from his teens until he was 25; then he switched and became more like his mother. But he couldn’t let go of the feeling that he should still be winning all the time, in addition to learning, producing, and working all the time. He had lots of “shoulds.”

He had concluded that people want compliance rather than authenticity. He was raised Roman Catholic, and he’d make up things he had done wrong to have something to admit when he went to confession. He told me that he no longer believed in God, so he had to punish himself now. He felt guilty about any sort of self-assertion. He loved post-apocalyptic films because “in that setting, you don’t have to worry about being good anymore.”

Yet Bart didn’t feel that his parents or his environment had any bearing on his current struggles. So I said that the most important thing for us now was to understand how he had adapted to the situation he was raised in.

Coping Strategy

One aspect of Bart’s strategy was trying to control people by giving them what they wanted. Meeting his father’s expectations was only the beginning. Among the four types of compulsives, he was clearly a follower/people-pleaser. He tried to achieve self-acceptance through others’ opinions of him, but it didn’t work, even when he did get accolades.

Another aspect of his strategy was to not depend on others. To do so would rob him of control. It would take time for him to realize that he actually did have social needs, but that, so far, those needs had only gone into impressing others, rather than relating to them. As with many compulsives, Bart felt it was safer to seek respect than to want love.

In his martyr mindset, being a victim implied that he was good. So he often became very negative about his life to prove to himself that he was a victim. He wouldn’t complain verbally to others, but he did need to show himself, at least, how bad his life was. Later he came to realize that his depressed moods were also unconscious attempts to communicate the misery that he could not reveal directly.

He was aware that he had adopted a strategy of planning and perfecting to try to pre-empt the utter self-contempt he unleashed on himself when things didn’t go well. “But why the self-contempt?” I asked. “If I’m self-critical, it will show other people that I won’t tolerate mistakes. But it’s become habitual. I do it even when other people aren’t looking.”

Engaging Feelings

Much of our work involved learning to identify feelings and excavating different levels of feeling so that he could operate from a more “bottom-up” approach. We spoke of therapy as a gymnasium for exercising his capacity to tune into feelings. As with many compulsives, framing our work in terms of a project was helpful in engaging him. I tried to bring attention to what he was feeling in his body and to the present moment.

Most of his feelings were about “shoulds.” Desires were few and far between. Tuning in to desires was a heavy lift for him, but with time he began to be more aware of the difference between acting on fears versus acting on desires.

At times Bart felt like giving up, whatever that might mean. I recommended that he take that seriously but not literally: What is it that you really need to give up? What is the control that you would be happier without?

As he let go of self-control, anger began to surface and eclipsed his sadness and anxiety. Part of him believed that he always did the right thing, and he got angry at those who didn’t. While he was typically self-effacing, it was new for him to acknowledge that in some ways he felt superior.

But we also needed to continue to excavate even more deeply beneath his anger and judgement to see if there were yet other levels of fear or sadness. While it was scary and sad to acknowledge how much was out of his control, it was a relief not to be avoiding it.

When he first came into treatment he had imagined that therapy would remove all his uncomfortable feelings. But with time he came to realize that it was okay to have feelings—sad, anxious or angry—and that he could learn not to amplify those feelings or carry them needlessly. With time, he didn’t need to avoid them so thoroughly.

Identifying What’s Important

Even as he learned to turn his focus inward, he found it hard to articulate his goals in life, career, and therapy. He had lost track of himself and what he really wanted long ago.

Because he had little access to feeling, he was unable to find direction. He obsessed about his job and whether to change companies or even careers. He liked the idea of a new career, especially one with a new identity, but he couldn’t follow through on that. He feared losing the fantasy of what it would be like if he did change.

As he navigated his professional and personal world, I often had to ask him what was most important to him. At first this was distressing, since he had no idea who he was or what he wanted. He was always climbing mountains, but he wasn’t sure whether taking on challenges was something he felt he was supposed to do or something he wanted to do. This skill of distinguishing how something looks from how it feels has been essential to the improvement of most of the people I work with. He couldn’t tell the difference, and we kept revisiting the distinction.

In his efforts to succeed, he’d lost track of why he wanted to succeed. Any sense of fulfillment in accomplishments was replaced by the need to achieve to prove to others and himself that he wasn’t a fraud. Over time he came to recognize that taking on challenges was fulfilling, that he genuinely enjoyed it, and that it was vital to his feeling better. But to enjoy it, he had to let go of using the challenges to prove his worth.

He had similar realizations when telling me about learning: this wasn’t just something he should do to silence his father’s demanding voice, it was something that was very satisfying. He didn’t have to do it, he wanted to do it. And that made it more pleasurable.

We explored his feelings about his marriage. He did value his marriage but was reluctant to depend on his wife: “I’d like to think that I don’t need my wife, but I do. And because I don’t want her to be too important, I don’t take in her support.” This would have made him too vulnerable and would have gone against the masochism he adopted from his mother.

It was a small revelation to him when he was recounting his weekend and noticed that spending time with his son had actually been pleasurable. It wasn’t just a “should.” Noticing this feeling of pleasure was a small window into what was most important for him. “I’ve been putting points in the wrong basket all along, thinking that making money was most important…I have to challenge the idea that piling one more dollar on the stack will make me feel better.”

He came to value more peaceful emotional states—being more present and accepting, and less regretful and judgmental.

Transference & Countertransference

Coming to therapy was not comfortable for Bart, partially because he felt he wasn’t “good” at it. “I remembered that he had quit playing golf because he wasn’t good at it and wondered to myself if the same could happen with therapy”. Still, his ability to speak to me directly about his discomfort was a success. Doing so served as a sort of psychoanalytic exposure therapy, staring down his deep fear of being real and of being known, with the added advantages of eventually understanding the causes and functions of those fears.

He once asked whether therapy was like confession. I explored what it was like in that regard for him and reminded him that when he was young he would make up sins to take to confession. Would he need to do that here? He didn’t think so.

He admitted that he wanted to learn the language of psychotherapy to please me. “Sometimes I tell you what I think you want to hear. I never lie to you, but I do try to figure out what you want.” He felt pressure in the silence to figure out what he was supposed to say. We explored this as a good example of his strategy.

“I’m afraid you think I’m a dick,” he said. “I’ve got so much, what’s my problem? Why am I complaining? You must think I’m just indulging here.” Was this feeling unique to our situation, or was this actually typical of how he felt with most people? He acknowledged that he never felt that it was okay to feel even tolerably accepting of himself, much less feel really good. That would be indulgent and arrogant. And it would invite humiliation.

He had imagined that I would give him a thumbs up at some point, certify him as mentally healthy, and send him on his way. We used this as an opportunity to distinguish what was more important: what I thought about him or how he felt about himself.

Allowing me to know him, and questioning how he imagined I saw him, was a step in the direction of being more open with people in general. Looking for parallels with what he imagined I thought of him, we explored the difference between what he imagined his wife thought of him, and what she really thought of him. As he felt less criticized, anxious, and depressed, she scrutinized him less, and he began to feel more comfortable with her.

“I also experienced my own discomfort with him”. I feared that he would run out of things to say and that I would be exposed as not having anything to offer him. I was not able to work this through completely, but in retrospect I suspect that my fears of being found inadequate were both induced and my own.

He missed a fair number of sessions. Even accounting for the fact that business meetings came up last minute, it still seemed that he avoided his issues at times by not coming. I thought it might be fitting for this to be an imperfect therapeutic process, and that my accepting that was going to be instrumental in his progress.

Despite how imperfect it was, he did make progress. Candor, which had been ego dystonic, was becoming ego syntonic. His coping strategy was changing, and we both came to enjoy his increasing freedom to be himself in the sessions.

Treatment Process: The Agents of Change

My goal in treatment with most compulsives is to enlist their natural impulse to become a “better” person and put it in service of their psychological growth. With Bart I never used the word compulsive, much less mention the diagnosis “OCPD.” But I did note his strong, natural drive to succeed and to be a good person.

Bart did seem to get this eventually: “It's kind of like I'm waking up and realizing that the game I was playing, putting points on the scoreboard, was meaningless, but this process of understanding myself and feeling better is more important. It feels good when I get it, when I master it.”

These realizations included questioning the narrative that he had to be like either of his parents. Near the end of his treatment he told me, “I want to take the best of my mother and father, and not be so black-and-white about it.”

Another aspect of his narrative that we needed to question was whether his family needed him only for money. Maybe they wanted him to be happy as well. Accepting this as a possibility required some vulnerability on his part. He couldn’t remain aloof if they actually cared about him. I believe that his work on opening to feelings in our sessions was instrumental in allowing him to feel closer to his family.

On occasion he wanted assignments for the week. I chose exercises to help him become more aware, in the moment, of how his old coping strategy affected him. For instance: “Try to notice when you stop yourself from feeling good. Count the times you do it. Just noticing it is great.” And, “Notice how many times perfectionism leads you to attack yourself.” Compulsives love to count. What he counted was changing.

We explored different parts of his personality. “What if I’m an asshole that just likes money? What if I just like being seen as generous but I’m really not?”

“Yes, part of you likes money, and part of you likes being seen as generous. Those are both okay. And there is more to you. There is also a part that genuinely likes to be generous whether anyone sees it or not.”

He wondered if it was okay to be ambitious. Somehow it didn’t feel right. The more we processed this, the clearer it became that it wasn’t so much money that was important to him, but achievement and mastery. There was a part of him that loved challenges. To say what he loved was a new expression and marked acceptance of a part of him that he had only vaguely recognized before.

Accepting his introversion was another challenge. He definitely liked his time alone but felt guilty about it, which of course meant that spending time with his wife and others felt like it was in the “should do” column, not the desire column. In the long run, he came to appreciate both being alone (without guilt) and spending time with his family, because it was no longer a “should.” As different parts of him came out of hiding, it became clearer what was important to him.

All these elements served to reduce the insecurity he felt, so that he didn’t need to prove himself…as much.

Termination

After 19 months Bart felt well enough to end treatment. We spent a few weeks processing the termination, especially what it was like for him to end it rather than me. I would have liked to see him longer, but that may have come out of my own perfectionist ideas about how long treatment should go on and what it should accomplish.

I would like to have seen him develop more comfort with the therapeutic process itself, but that too comes from someone whose intense interest in psychology developed when he was a teenager. Maybe not everyone needs to be comfortable with therapy, much less actually enjoy it. It was a very good sign that he decided to end treatment rather than feel he needed to stay to please me. I hope my acceptance was healing.

“I will never know how much, if any, of his progress was a well-performed recovery”. But I suspect that even if his first efforts to be authentic were to please me, they eventually became truly authentic. I suspect that he had experiences and insights that will help him change and be more fulfilled, even well after our work is finished.

Working with compulsives has forced me to examine my own biases, my own need to control, and my own rigidity. If nothing else, I learned that I can’t expect my patients to become any more flexible than I am myself. This includes challenging my own fixed ideas of how treatment should go with each new client.

Conclusion: Poison as Medicine

Jung said that individuation is a compulsive process, that we are compelled to become our true, authentic selves. When that process is blocked, neurotic compulsion ensues.

When we recognize the constructive potential of the obsessive-compulsive personality, we can help make it less “disordered.” When we recognize the energy that’s gotten off track, we can help direct that energy back toward its original, healthier path. The adamancy about doing the “right thing” that turned against the client and the people around them can be enlisted to help them find their way to a more satisfying way of living.

The alchemists were known for trying to transform lead into gold, which was really only a metaphor for transforming the poisonous, dark struggles of our lives into the incorruptible gold of character. But I think that this metaphor works best when we understand that the gold was there all along, obscured and waiting to be released.

References

American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425596

Diedrich, A., & Voderholzer, U. (2015). Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder: a current review. Current Psychiatry Reports, 17(2), 2.

Haslam, N. (2003). The dimensional view of personality disorders: a review of the taxometric
evidence. Clin Psychol Rev, 23(1), 75-93.

Hertler, S. C. (2015). The evolutionary logic of the obsessive trait complex: Obsessive
compulsive personality disorder as a complementary behavioral syndrome. Psychological
Thought, 8
(1), 17-34.

Koutoufa, I., & Furnham, A. (2014). Mental health literacy and obsessive–compulsive personality disorder. Psychiatry Research, 215(1), 223-228.

McIntosh, P., Paulsen, L. Mental health literacy of OCD and OCPD in a rural area. The Journal of Counseling Research and Practice, 4(1), 52-67. Available at https://egrove.olemiss.edu/jcrp/vol4/iss1/4.

McWilliams, N. (2014). Psychoanalytic Diagnosis. The Guildford Press.
Pinto, A. (2016). Treatment of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. In E. A. Storch & A. B. Lewn (Eds.), Clinical handbook of obsessive-compulsive and related disorders (pp. 415-429). Springer International Publishing AG. 

The Thought Process Underlying Perfectionism and How Therapists Can Help

As I listen to my clients describe their “maladaptive” ways of functioning, I usually discern adaptive elements in the patterns they perceive as dysfunctional. This surprised me at first but doesn’t anymore.

It is as if their symptoms have a point, and the problem is that they have taken this point too far. If so, the solution is not to reverse the problematic way of functioning but to dial it down into a more moderate range—a smaller and more readily attainable goal.

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But not necessarily an easy one. Research indicates that black-and-white thinking lies at the root of many mental health problems. Thinking in simple binaries makes it impossible to dial behaviors down because, if it’s not black, it must be white—there is nothing in between. There are many examples of this pattern, and perfectionism is one.

Perfectionism is a schema that recognizes just two categories of performance: perfect and unsatisfactory. There is nothing in between.

Perfectionism doesn’t work. Research indicates that it is associated with low self-esteem, depression, eating disorders, and, ironically, poor productivity. Nonetheless, perfectionism has a valid purpose: it can be rewarding to strive for high levels of performance.

Kirsten was a middle-level manager who looked successful from the outside but suffered from anxiety that was mostly related to her job. She worked long hours but said she was always behind. She had nothing but critical things to say about her performance, although she acknowledged that her evaluations were more than satisfactory. I also noticed that Kirsten frequently disparaged her performance as a therapy client: I found what she said quite clear, but she often interrupted herself with comments like “That didn’t make sense” and “I’m all over the place in the way I’m telling you this.”

Replacing Binaries with Spectrums

The alternative to black-and-white cognition is to think of psychological phenomena in terms of spectra. The spectrum relevant to perfectionism concerns personal standards for performance. The question is: what is good enough? Here is the continuum of possible answers:

1———-2———-3———-4———-5———-6———-7———-8———-9———-10
Horrible      Bad      Mediocre      Okay      Good      Excellent      Perfect

Clients with whom I have worked vary in how they answer this question. Almost none think that performances in the 1-3 range are good enough, but then variability kicks in. Some are content with performances that are below average but halfway decent, and standards range from there all the way up to perfectionism, with lots of gradations in between. I ask clients to mark the point on the scale that represents their answer to this question. Fractions and decimal points are often given by perfectionistic clients, who like to be precise, and Kirsten’s answer was 9.3

In black-and-white thinking generally, spectra are chopped into dichotomies. The two halves might be very unequal in size, because the dividing line might not be anywhere near the midpoint. We can understand clients’ thinking at a deep level by asking ourselves the question, “at what point does the client dichotomize the continuum?”

In black-and-white thinking about performance quality, perfectionists divide the continuum with a cut-point so close to its end that almost all of the spectrum is viewed as representing failure, with just a thin slice for success. On the above spectrum, the cut-point would be between 9 and 10. This lop-sided dichotomy results in constant failure experiences; it helped to explain why years of positive performance evaluations and promotions had not ameliorated Kirsten’s feeling that she was barely keeping her head above water as a professional.

To provide a visual illustration, I draw an arc over each side of the binary, label the large one “failure,” and label the small one “success.” This diagram illustrates the onerous nature of the standards by which perfectionists evaluate themselves.

The Goldilocks Zone

I generally try to help perfectionistic clients moderate their standards, but at first the idea of doing so makes many of them anxious. Their fear of lazy laxity may be so strong that it propels them to the opposite end of the spectrum: perfectionism.

Kirsten acknowledged that she strove for near-perfection in her approach to tasks, but her understanding of the problem was not that her standards were too high but that her performance level was too low. She said, “I need to strive for perfection to improve. If I start going easy on myself, I’ll become lazy and do even worse.”

This fear is the result of dichotomous thinking: if standards are not perfectionistic, they will be loose and sloppy. The solution is to replace this binary with another spectrum:

1———-2———-3———-4———-5———-6———-7———-8———-9———-10
Lazy slacker      Easy-going      Average      Conscientious      Perfectionistic

This diagram shows that perfectionism itself can be understood as an extreme on a spectrum of self-evaluative standards that vary in stringency. This spectrum maps onto the previous one—it is about how good a performance must be to be considered good enough. Again, I ask clients to mark their point on the scale. (Kirsten gave herself a 9.2.)

When I help clients move beyond black-and-white cognition to think in terms of spectra, possibilities open. Rather than making either/or choices, clients can learn to think in nuanced ways about the personal standards they would like to have—not too low and not too high.

Not a Point but a Range

This spectrum shows that perfectionism is not so much a bad thing as too much of a good thing. Perfectionists are not wrong to value high standards, but they take a good idea too far.

I have found that it is not necessary to reverse high standards, but only to adjust them toward moderation. Nor is it necessary to adopt the standards of the average person. The solution is to move into the Goldilocks Range, which is an area around the midpoint of 5.5, say between scale-points 4 and 7, or even 3 and 8.

Previously perfectionistic people usually feel most comfortable around scale-points 7 or 8, and Kirsten was no exception. We had some careful discussions about the difference between excellence and perfection and about how a person could be conscientious, exacting, and achievement-oriented without being perfectionistic. I validated the value of high standards and made it clear that I was not suggesting she become easy on herself and satisfied with mediocre work. The modest but important changes she made preserved her rigorous, hard-working style but moderated it enough to allow some flexibility and satisfaction. Her anxiety level decreased, and she began to enjoy her job for the first time.

This post focuses on perfectionism, but the spectrum strategy applies to a wide variety of mental health and relationship problems, as described in my book, Psychotherapeutic Diagrams. I have found that clients generally function best when they move from the extreme end of a spectrum into the part of the Goldilocks Range that is closest to their original style. For example, aggressive clients become assertive, anxious clients become cautious, and oppositional clients become independent.

A small- to medium-sized adjustment usually changes a maladaptive style into an adaptive version of itself and transforms a problem into a strength. My clients are glad to discover that resolving their difficulties does not require them to become a different kind of person. I ask clients to mark the point on the scale where they would like to be, and the distance from their current position is usually about 2 scale points; this makes the goals of therapy seem quite attainable.

There is a big practical problem with perfectionism: People have only limited amounts of time and energy, life has many aspects, and being perfectionistic about some aspects means short-changing the others, because there are only so many hours in a day. The goal of living a well-rounded life requires us to give up perfectionism.

***

Trying to reverse clients’ habitual ways of functioning can feel like swimming upstream, with opposing currents such as genetics and long-term histories—difficult factors to overcome. When clients realize that the changes they need are not dramatic or wrenching, and a 2-point adjustment on a 10-point scale could change them from an unhappy perfectionist to a hard-working, conscientious person, they feel more relaxed and optimistic, and so do I. Thinking in terms of spectra has brought my therapeutic efforts into accord with my clients’ natural styles and made our work together more harmonious.

References

Shapiro, J. P. (2015). Child and adolescent therapy: Science and art (2nd ed.). Wiley.

Shapiro, J. (2020). Finding Goldilocks: A guide for creating balance in personal change, relationships, and politics. Amazon.com Services.
 

Treating the Narcissistic Injury of a Narcissist

What happens when a narcissist gets fired or loses an election? These are painful experiences for anyone. But for the narcissist, the primary need is to be the center of attention to support their fragile self-esteem. While healthier people are hurt by disappointment, the narcissist feels completely destabilized by it. They cannot easily get “back on the horse.” The narcissist cannot maintain their sense of worth and is dependent upon others for sustenance. If other people mirror the self-aggrandized self of the narcissist, they are included in the narcissist’s idealized bubble. Hence, people may report that their experience of a narcissist was that they were charming and flattering. But disagreement or criticism by another person, a Board of Directors, or an electorate is experienced as a narcissistic injury. Narcissistic injuries do not feel like hurt feelings, they feel like the narcissist’s very self is being attacked. The narcissist needs constant reassurance that they are special and can spin out of control and attack others venomously when feeling unappreciated. Patrick came to see me when he was fired from a large non-profit organization. He was referred to me by another patient, a close friend and who was concerned about his depression. Patrick arrived at the first session dressed in an expensive suit, although he was not working, and explained how unfairly he had been treated. But he wanted to come twice weekly to figure out what he may have contributed to the bad outcome at work. I concurred that it seemed that the process had been unfair and that coming twice weekly was a good idea. When the first session came toward the end, I explained to him that I charge for missed sessions. If I am not given at least 24 hours’ notice, the patient is charged. If I am given more notice, I offer a make-up time, but if the patient does not take the make-up, I charge for the session. I also explained that I give the patient a bill at the end of the month and expect payment the following week in the session. (This was before the coronavirus pandemic!) Patrick said he would not pay for missed sessions twice in a week—only one at most. “There is no way I can do that. What if I have to miss two sessions in a week?” he scoffed. I knew from the referring patient that he had been paid a salary of a million dollars per year and was collecting severance pay. His resistance to paying for missed sessions was not due to financial considerations. It was clear to me that Patrick needed to feel special. He refused to follow my rules because they did not suit him. This was the first diagnostic sign to me that Patrick might have a narcissistic personality. I could have insisted on my terms, but he would not have started the treatment. I decided to accept his modification. During the first month, Patrick vacillated between remorse about some of the decisions he had made before getting fired and rage at the board of directors for accusing him of making bad decisions. Each time I thought he expressed some remorse, he immediately became defensive and expressed contempt for the board. Clients with narcissistic personalities try to build a positively valued sense of self on the illusion of not having any failings. The admission of any wrongdoing exposes unacceptable shame. When the end of the month came, I handed Patrick his bill. He did not give me a check the following week or the week after. I brought up the fact that he had not paid me. He said that he gave the bill to his accountant, and it should be in the mail. I explained that Patrick needed to pay me directly in the session because payment was part of therapy and that the payment was late, but I could not analyze his accountant. “That’s ridiculous!” Patrick exclaimed. “I’ve never heard of such a thing! My accountant pays all my bills.” “I am not Con Edison or a credit card company. I am a psychoanalyst, and part of the therapy involves you paying me directly when I give you the bill.” Patrick laughed. Then he said, “That’s really not convenient for me. I prefer my accountant pay my bills.” “I understand that,” I said. “But that is not acceptable in therapy.” Patrick got up and left the office. I was not sure if he would come back, but he did. “I called my accountant, and she was late in sending you the check.” He handed me the check. “Thank you,” I said. “I don’t know how I will remember to carry my check book all the time…,” he muttered. “You don’t need to carry it all the time, only the session after I give you the bill,” I said. He chortled. “Can you tell me what you’re feeling?” I asked. “I’m annoyed. That’s what I’m feeling. I think you’re making a big deal out of nothing,” he said. “I want to talk about what happened to me and how to get over it, and you keep talking about your damn bill.” “You sound angry.” “I’m not angry. I’m just annoyed that you’re wasting my time on this,” he said. “You’re the one who’s angry because I don’t want to follow your rule.” Narcissistic patients typically idealize or devalue the therapist. It was clear that this patient was going to devalue me. He was trying to maintain his self-esteem and avoid feeling the shame resulting from having been fired. He was projecting his sense of defectiveness onto me. But it was going to be difficult for me to tolerate being devalued. Patrick was struggling with trying to admit some of his mistakes in judgement while he was CEO while maintaining his fragile sense of self. If I concurred in any visible way each time he began to explore an error in judgement, he accused me of blaming him and not helping him move forward. I was careful to stay silent and not show any signs of concurring when he admitted a mistake. But he could not contain the conflict; he kept projecting one side of it onto me. I felt drained and hopeless after sessions in which he blamed me for criticizing him and insisted I was not listening or helping. A colleague pointed out that Patrick was still coming to sessions, so he must have an attachment to me and feel I was helping him. Perhaps, my colleague suggested, his narcissism will not allow him to feel helped because that would shake his self-esteem. It took a while for me to fully take in that insight, but once I did, I was more able to stay connected to Patrick by imagining I was in a playground watching a little boy on a see-saw, teeter-tottering between shame and blame, the core of narcissism. The more I was able to stay removed from it, the more Patrick was able to share regrets with me and tolerate them. After 18 months, Patrick got another high-status job that restored his sense of self-worth. He left treatment still claiming that my payment rules were too rigid. He was going to find another therapist who would accept payment from his accountant and understand him better. At first, I felt defeated, then sad that we were not able to get further. Now I feel that maybe he will eventually recognize the important work we did in his transition period between jobs.

An Ending Without Closure

Being a psychologist is a deeply rewarding and meaningful profession, but it is often tinged with a sense of loss and a lingering concern over my clients. I regularly form complex, genuine and caring relationships with a multitude of clients, but these same people can and often do disappear from my life, leaving me to ponder how they are faring and whether they are safe and taking care of themselves.

One client in particular returns often to my mind; I wonder if he gained some semblance of control over his substance abuse issues, whether he was able to resist prostituting himself again for his food and rent, or whether he was alive at all.

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As with the other clients I work with who have severe borderline pathology, it was challenging to determine which serious, self-destructive behavior to begin treating first. Should I focus on his growing weed, alcohol and amphetamine addiction? What about the self-harm scars adorning his arms and legs? Or the chronic, suicidal thoughts that had consumed him since he was 10 years old?

The smiling young man in his twenties who greeted me in our first session was attentive but difficult to connect with. He responded to my initial queries with short, practiced responses. He had already visited with multiple therapists and been hospitalized several times beginning at a young age, and he understood his role to be compliant but not forthcoming. Those early sessions forced me to slow down my typically quick therapeutic pace and to meet him where he was. The focus was simply to get him to trust me, to validate his pain and to reframe his self-destructive behavior as an understandable, albeit unhealthy, coping mechanism. He had experienced a great deal of shame because of the various traumas he had endured, so it was soothing for him to feel understood and accepted.

One of the struggles in working with clients with borderline pathology is that there is often a different crisis that has transpired each week that threatens to become the focus of the session, crowding out the larger, more pervasive patterns and issues. I would try to spend some time each session dealing with whatever had happened over the previous week, while focusing on behaviors and thought patterns that were impediments to his health. An ongoing theme of our work was self-esteem, which I have found undergirds many mental health issues. If a therapist can effectively improve a client’s sense of self-worth, issues such as depression, anxiety and self-destructive behaviors often begin to improve.

In those early sessions, I had explained to my client that self-esteem can manifest as an internal, critical voice. We can recognize that voice because it tends to be vague and it disparages our basic personality and worth. For example, if my client ate too much at a meal, his inner critic might say, “You are disgusting and have no self-control.” Or if he was avoiding a task and laying on the couch instead, it would yell, “You are so lazy.” I encouraged him to pay attention and to try and notice this critical voice, and then to yell back at it. I told him that when he heard the critic in his heard criticizing him, he should say, “Shut up critic, go away!” I explained that through repetition, noticing and responding to the critic in this manner, he would diminish its intensity and frequency, and feel better about himself.

In addition to his self-esteem, we also worked diligently on his distress tolerance. This client, like many of those with borderline pathology, felt emotions intensely but didn’t know how to manage them. Since he couldn’t express them in a healthy way and didn’t feel justified doing so, he would internalize them, manifesting as self-harm or binge eating. We worked on identifying and accepting his emotions and then discussed ways to self-soothe. Due to his intense self-hatred, he often struggled to justify treating himself kindly or performing otherwise self-calming activities. In time though, he would occasionally come into a session and report back on something he had done to feel better, earning much praise and support from me.

Over the two years we worked together in weekly sessions, I developed a great deal of sympathy and concern for this client. Even at his young age, his life had already been exceedingly difficult, and I worried about his future. How would he find and maintain work? Would he meet a partner who would treat him well? Would he go back to school? With each new crisis, my apprehension for him grew. The worry morphed into sadness, as I grew to acknowledge to myself how little control or influence I had over my client’s life. I could provide compassion, strategies and tools, along with a safe environment, but I couldn’t save him, despite how much I wished to.

Eventually, my young client moved out of his home and found his own place, though he moved several more times within just a few months, as he struggled with landlords and finding money for rent. The frequency of our sessions diminished, and often several months would pass before an email would arrive, requesting a session.

It has now been a year since I have heard from him. In our last session together, my client was struggling to maintain his new job at a coffee shop. He was also feeling lonely and drinking too much. We discussed ways for him to feel better and explored options in his community where he could receive further support. Whether he followed through on these recommendations, I don’t know.

In my more hopeful moments, I reassure myself that my young client likely availed himself of at least some of the resources that we had discussed, given his desire to get healthy and improve his life. Surely, he wouldn’t have gone through with all of our therapy sessions if he didn’t harbor some optimism for a better future. Yet my worry and doubts remain to this day. All I can do is hope that wherever he is, he is safe and knows that I am here if he needs me.  

Uncovering and Intervening in the Narcissistic Abuse Cycle

“You’re an #@^ liar! I can’t believe I married such an insecure person! I deserve better,” my client, Jared, stood up screaming at his spouse Margret after she confronted him. Then, Jared stormed out of session only to return a few minutes prior to the end of our time. “Well, have you learned?” he sarcastically asked Margret. “Did she tell you how wrong you were and how you hurt my feelings?” Much to my surprise, Margret apologized to Jared. Then he sat down and gave me a look like the cat who ate the canary. They left much as they came in. Nothing that was discussed with Margret in Jared’s absence seemed to have sunk in. He still was dominating, manipulative and controlling. She was passive, voiceless and exhausted. Our hour seemed wasted. What did I witness? It felt all too familiar since narcissism was the crazy glue that held my own family tree together. That moment was a turning point for me both personally and professionally. It changed how I dealt with my family and, more importantly, opened up a career opportunity. I now specialize in personality disorders with a heavy concentration on narcissistic, borderline and antisocial individuals and their partners. Jared and Margaret are my typical clients. So, what did I observe? The typical cycle of abuse is comprised of tension building, acting-out, reconciliation/honeymoon, followed by a period of calm before the cycle begins again. However, when the abuser is also a narcissist, this downward spiral looks different. True to their personality style, the narcissist is compelled to up the ante. Narcissism changes the back end of the cycle because the narcissist, perpetually self-centered, is unwilling or perhaps incapable of admitting fault. Their need to be superior, correct and/or in charge limits the possibility of any genuine reconciliation. Instead, it is frequently the abused partner who desperately utilizes apology and appeasement while the narcissist switches into the role of victim. This switchback tactic emboldens the narcissist’s behavior even more, further convincing them of their faultlessness. Any threat to their authority repeats the cycle. This describes what I have now witnessed hundreds of times. By teaching my non-narcissistic clients this cycle, they are better able to stop it and have greater control of the downward spiral. Here are the stages in the narcissist’s cycle of abuse I have witnessed in my practice: Feels Threatened. An upsetting event occurs in which the narcissist feels threatened. It could be the rejection of sex, disapproval at work, embarrassment in a social setting, jealousy of another’s success or feelings of abandonment, neglect, or disrespect. The abused partner, aware of the potential threat, becomes nervous. They know something is about to happen and begin to walk on eggshells around the narcissist. Most narcissists repeatedly get upset over the same underlying issue whether it is real or imagined. They also tend to obsess over any perceived threat. Abuses Others. The narcissist engages in some sort of abusive behavior which can be physical, mental, verbal, sexual, financial, spiritual or emotional. The abuse is customized to intimidate the abused partner in an area of weakness, especially if that area is one of strength for the narcissist. The abuse can last for a few minutes or as long as several hours. Becomes the Victim. This is when the switchback occurs. The narcissist uses the abused partner’s reactive behavior as further evidence that they themselves are the ones being abused. The narcissist believes their referential victimization by bringing up past defensive behaviors perpetrated by the abused partner—as if it were the cause of the conflict. Because the abused partner has feelings of remorse and guilt, they accept this warped perception and try to rescue the narcissist. This might include giving in to what the narcissist wants, accepting unnecessary responsibility, placating the narcissist to keep the peace and/or acting as if the narcissist’s lies are the truth. Feels Empowered. Once the abused partner has given in or up, the narcissist once again feels empowered. This is all the justification the narcissist needs to prove that they were right in the first place. The abused has unknowingly stoked the narcissist’s already fiery ego. But every narcissist has an Achilles heel and the power they have temporarily re-claimed only lasts until the next threat. Once the narcissistic cycle of abuse is understood by the abused partner, the therapist can intervene at any point. This may include developing strategies for future confrontations, understanding how much abuse the recipient is willing and able to tolerate in the relationship, or developing an escape plan. The next time Jared exploded, Margaret immediately defused the situation through the use of diversion which stopped the cycle—at least for that moment. Recognizing and effectively intervening around the narcissistic elements of the cycle of abuse changed my practice. I transitioned from mismanaging conflict to de-escalating the tension while maintaining complete control. Couples embroiled in the cycle of narcissism benefitted in that some could remain together while others could not. Empowerment is as important for therapists as it is for the clients, particularly the ones caught up in this cycle.

What is Mental Illness? Donald Trump and the Psychiatrists Who Would Diagnose Him

Recently, the American electorate has been treated to the awkward spectacle of mental health professionals proclaiming that President Donald Trump is mentally ill. These pundits have ignored the ethical standard against diagnosing someone you’ve never met, based only on public scrutiny, and have exhibited both grandiosity (they believe themselves saviors of the Republic) and lack of insight (they fail to recognize how their personal politics taint their judgment). They show an evident contempt for our democracy and the 60 million voters who chose Trump over his rivals. (Full disclosure: I didn’t vote for any of the listed candidates; instead, I wrote in my choice: George Washington.)

In a New York Times OpEd (1/12/18), Jeffrey A. Lieberman, Chairman of Psychiatry, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, said:

… when psychiatrists engage in clinical name calling about the president’s mental status without adequate evidence and proper evaluation, they are damaging the credibility of the entire field. Psychiatry has had a checkered past: Witness its collusion in Nazi eugenics policies, Soviet political repression and the involuntary confinement in mental hospitals of dissidents and religious groups in the People’s Republic of China. More than any other medical specialty, psychiatry is vulnerable to being exploited for partisan political purposes.

A recent book, The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President (St. Martin’s Press, 2017), accuses the President of such things as “impulsivity,” “pathological narcissism,” “paranoia,” and “sociopathy.” But what about other Presidents and Presidential candidates who these same diagnosticians would no doubt admire?

  • Barack Obama may have impulsively criticized as racist a white police officer responding to a possible burglary at a black professor’s home but had to publicly apologize through the “beer at the White House” photo op. Although a minor episode, it raised the issue of racial animus with the first President of color.
  • Lyndon Johnson refused to end the Vietnam war because, he said, “I will not be the first U.S. President to lose a war.” Tens of thousands of Americans and perhaps hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese were subsequently injured or killed because of Johnson’s apparent pathological narcissism.
  • Hillary Clinton may have revealed her paranoia when she defended her husband, Bill, as the target of a “vast right-wing conspiracy.” Perhaps this earlier instance of a secretive, suspicious nature presaged her later use of the infamous private email server.
  • And speaking of Bill Clinton, does any President more clearly show sociopathy than him? Consider a few of many possible examples: his purported history as a sexual predator, his questionable connections to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army, and even his apparent theft of White House property at the end of his term.

All of these alleged signs of mental illness fall under the category of character traits, an even more ambiguous area of diagnosis. After all, everyone has a personality, and it is only a matter of degree whether any of our mannerisms interfere with daily function enough to be considered problematic. Successful people often have strong character traits that may help or hinder them. All of the politicians above, including Donald Trump, have lifelong histories of functioning at very high and effective levels. To call any of them mentally ill begs the question: what is mental illness?

Leaving aside the political contretemps, we must recognize how difficult it is to define mental illness. The DSM5 attempts to categorize various observations and behaviors into a useful taxonomy. These categories are described as “disorders” rather than illnesses and they are constantly reshuffled with additions and subtractions in each revised edition. For example, before 1974 homosexuality was a disorder and afterwards it was not. The current edition includes gender identity disorder (or “transsexualism”) for the first time. So, in this sense, mental illness is whatever a large committee says it is. This approach is useful for research and to facilitate communication among providers, but it isn’t science.

Adding to the difficulty is the observation that a behavior considered abnormal in one part of the world is accepted as normal elsewhere. In the United States, taking one’s own life is almost always considered a sign of mental illness. Yet the Hindu practice of sati in which a wife throws herself onto her husband’s funeral pyre still occurs today, and Islamic fundamentalists blow themselves up like the Japanese kamikaze pilots of World War II. These acts are considered, within their own cultures, as honorable, not “sick.” Suicidal behavior, then, can sometimes be an illness and other times not, depending on the cultural context. I could give many other examples, but the point is that human societies vary and there is no universal standard for mental illness. The only definition that covers all of it is: mental illness is a marked deviation from cultural expectation. Although accurate, this definition is so broad as to be almost meaningless, and it has little practical utility.

In everyday practice, we rely on those who seek our help to define their own mental disability. Behaviors others might consider abnormal can be acceptable to an individual. Some live with phobias by restructuring their lives to avoid anxiety triggers. Others may accept low-level chronic depression as normal, as in the old blues song, “been down so long it looks like up to me.” Narcissistic, dependent and even antisocial personality traits may be tolerable unless they lead to significant interpersonal or societal dysfunction. People who come to a psychotherapist usually can tell us what they consider “abnormal,” and maybe that’s all the definition we need.

Otto Kernberg on Psychoanalysis and Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy

The Interview

Chanda Rankin: I’m Chanda Rankin, and it’s a real pleasure to have you here for this interview today with Psychotherapy.net. Earlier you mentioned you were born in Vienna, Austria. I wanted to know how much sociocultural influences at that time affected and influenced you to go into the field of psychotherapy and analysis.
Otto Kernberg: To begin with, I left Austria when I was ten years old. My parents and I had to escape from the Nazi regime. We did so at the last moment and immigrated to Chile. I trained in psychiatry at the Chilean Psychoanalytic Society. I came to the States for the first time in 1959 on a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship to study research in psychotherapy with Jerry Frank at Johns Hopkins. Then in 1973 I moved to New York, where I was at Columbia. Now, I'm Director of the Personality Disorders Institute where we're carrying out the research of personality disorders.

Certainly my cultural influences are Austrian, German, and that has influenced me in many ways. But my psychiatric training was integration of classical descriptive German psychiatry and psychoanalytic psychiatry/psychodynamic psychiatry. Later I became immersed in ego-psychology and Klein's work. I also visited Chestnut Lodge where I became acquainted with the culturist orientation, Sullivanian, Frieda Fromm-Reichman as well as the ego/object relations psychologists, Edith Jacobsen and Margaret Mahler. So it was natural to try to synthesize an object relations approach between the great ego psychological Kleinian and so-called British 'middle group' or independent approaches. Then many years later, to this was added a certain influence from French psychoanalysis.

Kernberg’s Gold Mine

CR: I’ve always been very curious about what is it about working with personality disorders do you find so compelling that you’ve made this the focus of your life’s work?
OK: It was a combination of various influences. First of all, perhaps the most important one was that the psychotherapy research project at the Menninger Foundation that I joined and eventually directed consisted of the treatment of 42 patients—21 treated with various types of psychotherapy from a psychoanalytic basis, and 21 patients were treated with standard psychoanalysis. Now, it so happened that many of the patients sent to the Menninger Foundation suffered from severe borderline conditions. Severe personality disorders, right now called Borderline Personality Organization…the concept had originally been developed there by Robert Knight and his coworkers. Many patients with severe personality disorders were included in that project, and the diagnosis was made very, how shall I put it, tentatively or fleetingly. When the project started in 1954, there were no clear-cut criteria being used. It was very helpful because it turned out that half of the patient population on the therapy side, and half of the patient population on the psychoanalysis side suffered from severe borderline conditions.
CR: How fortunate for the researchers.
OK: Yes. And each of these cases had typed process notes of each session, of treatment over many years. Big fat books. So by the time I got there, I had 42 cases studied in detail, and it was just a gold mine! I noticed regularities about what happens in the treatment, what would have facilitated the diagnosis, so I combined my interest in object relations theory with the interest in clarifying this group, to develop some hypothesis about treatment. We then did the statistical and quantitative analysis of the project. It provided me with important confirmations and disconfirmations of the hypothesis.
CR: And this population was not well understood at the time.
OK: No, so I was very lucky to have this patient population. And when I started out, I wasn't aware myself that I was getting into a very interesting subject.
CR: How did you become involved with the study of narcissistic personality disorders?
OK: Just by chance. One of the patients who I saw in a controlled analysis while I was a student at the Psychoanalytic Institute in Santiago, Chile, had been diagnosed as an obsessive-compulsive personality. I was unable to help him—he didn't change one inch over years and his memory persecuted me. Then, I perceived that he was very much like other patients I saw at the Menninger Foundation. Hermann Van Der Waals, who had written an important article on the narcissistic personality told me, 'These are narcissistic personalities.' Nobody had described these characteristics in the literature well.

I then took another patient into analysis, exactly like my previous one, and on the basis of my then-developing psychoanalytic knowledge, I developed a particular thesis on how to treat that patient. And this is how I developed the treatment of narcissistic personality, the diagnostic observations, the differential diagnosis between narcissistic and borderline typology, the generalization of the concept of borderline personality organization. So it was a combination of luck and interest.

CR: A very rich time, and a confluence of things coming together to make that happen. What or who influenced your clinical style which seems to be neutral in many ways but not passive or impersonal?
OK: One individual who I have not yet mentioned, who is very little known at this point, although he was a leader of American psychiatry, is John White, the Chair of Public Psychiatry of Johns Hopkins when I was there. He developed a method for clinical interviewing that inspired me for developing structural interviewing. He was the best interviewer I've ever seen. He would start talking with the patient, and the interview would go on until he had a sense that he knew what he wanted to do. It went on for two or three hours. John White had a way of putting himself into the background, disappearing, so to speak. He was very direct, very honest, and understood something about people, in depth. No showmanship. Just raising questions that permitted the development of the patient. He had a tremendous capacity to permit the patient to develop his present personality, rather than asking what happened 50,000 years ago. That also influenced me in interviewing. Sharpened my approach to the study of the present personality.

But, perhaps also what has been very important to me is the excitement with the fact that there you have these patients with severe distortions, that ruin their lives. No doubt about it. This is not phony pathology for wealthy patients who have nothing to do but to go to a psychoanalyst. These people have not been able to maintain work, a profession, a love relation. And with the psychoanalytic psychotherapy and psychoanalysis you are able to change their personality, improve their lives. I think that is an extremely important contribution of psychoanalysis. And we need to do empirical research on this. One of the things that I have been very critical about is the lack of systematic and empirical research within the psychoanalytic world.

How People Change!

CR: Do you think that there’s any one specific thing, if at all, that contributes more than any other thing to change with a personality-disordered patient?
OK: People change in many ways with common sense, with friends, with help, with luck, with good experiences in life. I think that psychoanalytic psychotherapy and psychoanalysis are probably the methods that promote the best changes in case of severe personality disorders, through the mechanism of analyzing of the transference, the split off, dissociated, primitive object relations that determine and are an expression of identity-fusion, bringing about normalization of the patient's identity, integrating his self and concept of significant others. In that context, permitting the advance from primitive to advanced defense mechanisms, and strengthening of ego function in terms of increased impulse control, moderating affective responses, and facilitating sublimatory engagements.

So I think that's probably the best approach nowadays to bring about fundamental personality change. There are indications and contra-indications; not all patients can be helped. I think that the prognosis depends on the type of personality disorder, on intelligence, on secondary gain, on the severity of anti-social features, on the quality of object relations, on the extent to which some degree of freedom of the sexual life has developed or not. So there are many features that make indication, contra-indication and prognosis for the individual cases different. We are in the middle of trying to spin all of these out.

“Psychotherapy Training is Going Down the Drain”

CR: You often emphasize the importance of training, really making sure that the therapists know what they are doing and what they are dealing with in terms of the patient. Can you speak to that issue?
OK: First of all, yes, I am very critical of chaotic gimmickry in treating patients based upon chaotic theory. Each person who invents a treatment method invents his own ad hoc theory for treatment. I find that this damages the field, the treatment, the patients. It's bad science, on top of it. One thing I like about psychoanalysis is that it's an integrated theory of development, structure, psychopathology, that lends itself to develop a theory of technique of intervention. I'm not saying it's the only one, but that's one of its strengths.

I think that when people apply various techniques from different theoretical models, they cannot but end up in a chaotic situation in which transference and countertransference is going to drive the relationship in one direction or another. I'm not saying that you can't help patients with this. But you cannot learn how to develop a certain approach. I've seen so many bad consequences from that. Because then you don't match technique with the needs of the patient. And you don't give patients as much. So I prefer to have a cognitive-behavioral therapist, let's say, a well-integrated general theory that applies to his field, rather than one of these esoteric schools everybody has. In this field there is so much voodoo and so much fashion and quackery. It's paid for, and of course, it requires research. Now, unfortunately, most of the research that's been done on short-term psychotherapy done by non-therapists with non-patients in university settings, to grind out papers… so the real treatment that is done clinically has only been researched in a limited way… I think that's our major task. And I believe that we need to develop manualized treatments for long-term psychotherapists, whatever their background. And test them scientifically.

So, regarding training, I think that training should focus on theory of personality, personality change as a basis of technique. And then, apply it to clinical situations.

CR: What do you think of the impact of managed care on psychotherapy?
OK: Psychotherapy training is going down the drain in this country, under the corrupting effect of managed care, this terrible system for profit that goes under the mask of 'managed care,' but really it's managed cost. Under its pressure, long-term psychotherapy is now reserved for those who can pay for it privately. So we are depriving a significant segment of the population of treatment. I trust that that system is going to explode by its own corruptive effects and structure. This is already occurring. And that in the long run, our knowledge and our scientific development of psychotherapy will restore an optimal level of psychiatric practice and psychotherapeutic practice. I think that in the meantime we live in a happy-go-lucky, democratic fashion in which everything goes. Which creates distrust in the public, cynicism in the profession, and is not healthy to patients.
CR: Have you considered ways to reverse this trend?
OK: I think the solution is, in the long run, scientific research.

In my own Institute of Personality Disorder, we're trying to contribute in a modest way by carrying out empirical research. We have randomized three groups of 40 patients each, all of them with the diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder. One group to be treated with transference-focused psychotherapy, which is a psychoanalytic psychotherapy that we have developed and tested. The second group by DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, developed by Marsha Linehan for suicidal Borderline patients. And third, supportive psychotherapy based on psychoanalytic principles. We're going to compare these treatments, not simply in a kind of horserace, but we're trying to study what process mechanisms are connected with what mechanisms of change.

I don't believe that one treatment is 'better' than the others, but there are specific types of patients who respond better to one or another or that treatments may be equally good on the basis of different mechanisms of change. In this regard, I'm very critical of the assumption that non-specific aspects of psychotherapy are by far the overriding cause of its effectiveness. Because all the studies on which these conclusions are based are short-term psychotherapists of very questionable nature. Nobody has studied yet the comparison of long-term psychotherapists from the solid bases, as I have tried to define.

Critiquing the Media and Pop Culture

CR: To go back to something we were talking about earlier, I was wondering if you could say something about psychotherapists portrayal in the media? What are your thoughts on how psychotherapists are portrayed in movies and television? Along those same lines, you have noted how eclecticism in the field is leading to a diffusion and misrepresentation.
OK: In general, psychotherapists are portrayed in simplified and almost caricatured ways in movies. What is very fashionable in this country right now is the so-called intersubjectivist approach, in which the therapist lets 'everything hang out' and people are impressed with how real the therapists are. I think that reflects a dominant culture of doing things quickly, immediately, the culture of faith, good faith, warmth, belief in the human being helps everybody along. Which is different from the reality when we treat patients who suffer under severe regressive conflicts, whose major need is to destroy the therapeutic relationship, who envy the therapist's capacity to help them—those kinds of cases we don't see in the movies, except that by the time we see that kind of patient, they are shown as monsters and people get horrified. And there is a strong cultural critique of psychoanalysis that is not new, but now takes the form of "psychoanalysis is lengthy, expensive, hasn't demonstrated its efficacy and effectiveness, and patients can be helped by brief psychotherapists." Often they present psychotherapy as shamanism.

At the same time, the combination of the important development in biological psychiatry, the financial pressures reducing availability of psychotherapeutic treatment, the cultural critique of subjectivity and wish for quick solutions, adaptation—all that has tended to decrease the participation of psychodynamic psychiatry and psychodynamic psychotherapy and the training of psychiatrists. It has brought about the old-fashioned split between biological psychiatry (centering on basic research and psychopharmacological treatment) and psychotherapy (pushed off to other professions and being disconnected from medicine and psychiatry). I think that's unfortunate. That leads to a kind of mind/body divide when they should come together.

CR: Can you say more about this mind/body divide?
OK: The impact of the new neurosciences on psychotherapy is very misunderstood. I think there is a lot of premature, reductionist excitement with all these new findings. We have important new findings of the central nervous system, as an effect of psychotherapy, correlations between psychiatric disorders and brain functioning. But these new developments do not, as yet, have any practical implications in terms of both theory and technique, technical interventions, so we have to keep that in mind.
CR: How do you view issues of the mind/body applying in the clinical situation?
OK: Of course you could say that it applies insofar as psychopharmacological drugs derived from our better understanding of neurotransmitters. That is certainly true for the case of schizophrenia, major affective disorders, syndromes of depression and anxiety in general, but it's not true for personality disorders, the many sexual difficulties and inhibitions that go with them. And, to the contrary, there, medication has a very limited symptomatic effect on anxiety and depression, but not at all on the basic psychopathology. The illusion that eventually everything is going to be cured by a pill is an illusion that has existed for a long time, and I think that there are good theoretical as well as practical, clinical, reasons to question it.

The Question of Love

CR: I want to turn to a different interest of yours which you explore in your new book Love Relations: Normality and Pathology. I was very curious how that came about, and in the body of all your other work to be writing a book on love seemed like such a drastic change. What was the impetus for this book?
OK: As I mentioned in the Introduction to the book, I have been accused of being only concerned with hatred and aggression, so I thought it would be fun to write about love!
CR: Was it fun to research and write this book?
OK: It was fun, but it was also difficult, because when I got into the subject, I realized how complicated it is, and how I had to renounce exploring many areas that I would have loved to explore. So the book has important limitations. I observation that the degree of pathology of the personality disorder, of one or both participants of the couple, does not permit us to establish a prognosis of how the couple would do. Two perfectly healthy people get together and it's like hell on earth; two extremely troubled people get together and have a wonderful relationship! So that clinical observation created my curiosity, because of course it's a problem that borderline patients face—establishing couples, getting married.

I also became interested in the subject of sexual relations, because I found out there were two types of borderline patients—I'm using the term loosely to mean severe personality disorders. One with an extremely severe primary inhibition of all sexual capacity, no capacity for sensual activation or enjoyment, no sexual desire, no capacity for masturbation. These patients had a bad prognosis because in the treatment, as everything was consolidating, more repressive mechanisms inhibits that sexuality even further. On the other hand, you had those with wild promiscuous sexuality—polymorphous perverse, invert, pan-sexuality, with masochistic, sadistic, voyeuristic, exhibitionistic, fetishistic, homosexual, heterosexual, everything…those with such a chaotic sexual life seem to have a terrible prognosis, but the opposite was true. These patients did extremely well, once their personality was functioning better. So it raised my interest, why this extremely severe sexual inhibition, what could be done about this? And, also, a more basic question about how much a couple can contribute to inhibit each other or to help each other to free themselves sexually. That's it, in a nutshell.

What are Good Therapists and Analysts Made Of?

CR: Do you have any thoughts about personality characteristics that an analyst or a therapist needs to have in order to work with severe personality disorders, or even mild personality disorders?
OK: That's a good question. As I look at our experience, we've trained many therapists. We've had 20 years of training and supervision. I think that people with very different personalities can become very good therapists. I don't have anything deep or new to say about this that couldn't be said by anybody with some experience in this field. I think it's important, first of all, that the therapist be intelligent, it helps. Second, that they are emotionally open. That they be a personality that is sufficiently mature, on the one hand, and open to primitive experience, in contrast to someone who is extremely restricted. It helps not to be excessively paranoid, infantile, or obsessive-compulsive. Although, I'm saying excessive because we have all kinds of therapists—all basically, honest with themselves and others, with a willingness to learn. Therefore, it helps not to have too much pathological narcissism. If you are too narcissistic, you don't have the patience to work with very troubled patients, and your capacity for empathy is limited.
CR: But it also seems like you need a healthy dose of those things.
OK: Yeah, some of us are exploring that. I really don't have a good answer to that. But there are some people who have a talent for it, like people have talent for playing piano. I don't know whether experts would say, what personality does it take to play the piano? There are some people who have the talent. Some people are able to do it almost without any training. It's almost frightening that they know things before we teach them. It's bad for our self-esteem! I've had therapists with whom I've had a sense that there is such an inborn capacity that with little…they would flourish. And others who never learned, even though they were intelligent and hard-working. And I'm not able, at this point, to spin out what it is. But, we can discover it.

Very simply, we tell people who want to train, "Bring us a tape. The best tape you have, of any session that you are carrying out, a videotape with a patient in treatment." And we have developed methods of the psychotherapeutic interaction by which we can sort out who does have the talent for doing it. We can evaluate very quickly with manualized treatment whether the therapist is able to adhere and whether the therapist is competent. Competence is seen by the therapist talking, focusing on what is relevant, focusing on what is relevant with clarity, doing it relatively quickly and in depth. Relevance, clarity, speed, depth. The combination of them tell us who is a good therapist. It's terribly simple, and it works.

And I'll tell you, some experienced psychoanalysts are terrible; and some young trainees are very good. This creates the problem: does one have to be a psychoanalyst to do this kind of treatment? I would say it helps to have psychoanalytic training, but it's not indispensable. There are some people who have so much talent they can do it without psychoanalytic training, although, a personal psychotherapeutic experience always helps, particularly if people have a kind of "blind spot" in a certain area. Sometimes a psychoanalytic treatment or psychoanalytic psychotherapy helps.

CR: You have written about the importance of therapist safety. It really hit home with me, and I had not actually heard anyone articulate that clearly before. The ability to be able to sense when safety is an issue seems so primary. So all the things that you’re talking about—your own self-awareness, to be able to have the insight into these areas, to know when something is a problem. It’s very important for safety as a therapist and also the amount of safety you can provide for your patient.
OK: Exactly right. It permits you to maintain the frame of the treatment. It's absolutely essential. The therapist has to maintain the control over the therapeutic situation. The therapist has to be in charge. There is a realistic authority of the therapist that has to be differentiated from authoritarianism, namely, the abuse of that authority. There is kind of a cultural move toward "democratization" of the psychotherapeutic relationship. I think that's just silly. Because patients come to us because of a certain expertise, otherwise they wouldn't come to us, and they shouldn't. There's a difference between authority and authoritarianism. And part of the authority of the therapist depends on the therapist's being able to maintain the frame of the treatment. And our own safety is essential in this regard. When you treat severe personality disorders it becomes crucial…physical, psychological, legal safety, in this country which is so litigious. It's the most paranoid culture that I know within the civilized world. I've not been in the jungle…
CR: We might be close!
OK: Perhaps so, we live in a very paranoid culture.
CR: Thank you so much for your time.
OK: You're most welcome.