The Psychiatric Repression of Thomas Szasz: Its Social and Political Significance

Thomas Szasz has been the leading critic of psychiatry for the past 35 years. In this time, his relationship with psychiatry has been problematic and painful. Critics are rarely loved by the objects of their attention. Thomas Szasz has been hated, mocked, repressed, ignored, and ostracized by psychiatrists who fear his critical gaze. This period of psychiatric history, which is not well known, is highly significant for contemporary psychiatry and for the society in which it operates.

The reader should be informed at the outset that I, personally, have been strongly influenced by Szasz to both my benefit and my detriment. I first met him in 1956, when I was a senior medical student and he had just been appointed professor of psychiatry at the Upstate Medical Center at Syracuse. We have been friends and colleagues for—I am startled by the number—almost 40 years. In this time, both psychiatry and American society have undergone profound changes. Some people have blamed Szasz for some of those changes, for example, the deinstitutionalization of mental patients.1 Others would deny that he has had any influence at all on psychiatric thought or practice. They say that progress in biological psychiatry has rendered his writings hopelessly obsolete.

It is incorrect and unfortunate, however, to dismiss the corpus of Szasz's work on the grounds either that he has been a negative influence or that his work is no longer relevant to modern psychiatry. Although Szasz has been in conflict with psychiatry because he is an individualist and a champion of individual rights, he is not an individual thinker. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an individual thinker, in the sense that individuals think in the intellectual paradigms of their times. Thinking is a social activity. Thinkers think in the framework of thoughts articulated before them. They may interpret and express their ideas uniquely, but they nevertheless swim in the intellectual currents of their Zeitgeist. Szasz represents a current of intellectual history. The fact that most psychiatrists dismiss him as irrelevant means that psychiatry rejects and avoids that current.

If some people regard Szasz's work as wrong, obnoxious, or obsolete it is because it embodies a historical set of concepts and values with which they disagree or by which they are threatened. Szasz has written critically of psychiatry because he disagrees with fundamental psychiatric concepts and values. The relationship between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry is shaped by ethical and philosophical conflicts which are rooted in historical and political currents. Understanding these currents will help to illuminate some vexing problems of modern psychiatry and society.

This Historical Context

Students of the sociology of knowledge have long understood that thought is a commodity. Karl Mannheim observed that thoughts have political and social value.2 Some thoughts are enlightening and ennobling while others are false and degrading. Some ideas are congenial and supportive of our particular interests while others are contradictory and threatening. Mannheim, like most social thinkers after Marx and Freud, recognized that individuals and groups are motivated by their desires and interests and tend to support ideas which promote them and to oppose ideas which obstruct them.

History shapes and is in turn shaped by the dynamic conflict between competing desires and ideas. Until the seventeenth century of the Christian era, the prevailing ideology in the West was a cosmology which viewed the world hierarchically. The earth was perceived as at the center of the universe, orbited by the seven visible spheres: the moon, the sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter. Presiding at the pinnacle of this cosmic hierarchy was the Judeo-Christian Sky God, Lord of the World, who governed human affairs through His representatives on earth—kings and popes. They, in turn, ruled by divine right over the descending order of landed nobles and feudal chiefs, soldiers and knights, artisans and merchants, and, at the bottom, peasants and indentured serfs.

In the seventeenth century, this dominant ideology was challenged by the scientific discoveries of men like Giordano Bruno, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and Rene Descartes. In their new, scientific world view, the earth was perceived as only one of six planets orbiting the sun in a universe governed indifferently by the laws of physics. The New Science threatened the knowledge and, therefore, the authority of the prevailing social powers who consequently opposed it and persecuted its practitioners. Bruno was burned at the stake for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun. Kepler and Descartes were intimidated. Galileo was forced to recant it. His works were censored by the Vatican's index of prohibited books until the end of the nineteenth century.

But the medieval cosmology could not withstand the assault of factual knowledge about the world. At the same time that the facts of the New Science were spreading across Europe, the Catholic Church and the monarchies of its Christian empire were disintegrating from the poisonous effects of their own corruption, cruelty, and hypocrisy. A groundswell of political unrest and revolution overturned the authority of the tyrannical rulers beginning in America in 1776, erupting in France in 1779, and continuing around the world until today.

The twin ideals of the intellectual and political revolutions of the European Enlightenment were science and democracy. Jurisdiction over the problems of human suffering and the pursuit of happiness were transferred from religion to science and from church to state. The new social order would no longer be guided by priests, kings, and scripture toward a hoped-for heaven after death. It would now be guided by scientists and politicians toward the utopian ideal of social progress here on earth.3

The decline of traditional religious authority, the rise of the city, and the corollary disintegration of the clan and family left the individual and the state as the new primary units of society. The democratic revolutions embodied a new political spirit of a community of individuals as expressed in the slogan "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity." This new ideology was fueled by the hope for social progress based on faith in science and an economic policy driven by enlightened self-interest under a minimalist state ruled by law. American constitutional government was designed on the template of this ideology. This is the current of history to which Thomas Szasz belongs. Szasz has been labeled a political conservative but he is, basically, a Jeffersonian liberal.

Szasz's valuation of the individual and of individual rights under the rule of law in an open society also has a personal context. He was born Jewish in Hungary in 1920 when anti-Semitic fascism was on the rise. His family was educated and politically sophisticated. They knew that fascism and communism both meant the hypertrophy of the power of the state and the repression of the individual, especially the Jewish individual. Szasz fled Hungary in 1938 together with his beloved brother George. His parents followed later. They traveled overland to Paris and then overseas to the United States, to Cincinnati, Ohio, where relatives lived. Szasz attended the University of Cincinnati and graduated first in his class with a bachelor of science in physics. He then completed his medical education at the University of Cincinnati medical school.

Szasz's conflict with psychiatry has its historical roots in the growth and expansion of the power of the state over and against the individual. The eighteenth-century ideal of enlightened self-interest was, in practice, more selfish than enlightened. The gap between rich and poor grew wider than it had been under the old feudal and monarchic orders. The modern socialist state has hypertrophied to its present leviathan proportions to mediate the conflicts between classes and groups, to replace the historical functions of the declining family and community, and to socialize, educate, and control its members.

As a social institution, psychiatry has historically functioned both in the service of the individual and in the service of the state. This is the root of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and modern psychiatry. Psychoanalysis and psychotherapy developed in the service of the modern, alienated individual to help resolve and relieve the psychological conflicts and emotional pain of secular life. In this manifestation, the psychiatrist is the heir of the priest, the moralist, the educator, and the critic. Szasz belongs to this tradition. He was trained as a psychoanalyst and, like Freud, was more comfortable in the role of the intellectual and literary critic than of the medical physician.

Psychiatry has another face, however. Psychiatry has also allied itself with the state as a covert agent of social control of the individual. This alliance of psychiatry and the state is a historical consequence of the limitations placed on the power of the state by the rule of law. The rule of law limits the power of the state over the individual. This limitation has motivated the invention of a covert, disguised means by which society can control the individual. Psychiatry has served this social function through its state-sanctioned power to label certain forms of deviant or undesirable conduct as illness and by means of involuntary psychiatric commitment which enables the state to detain individuals against their will, without trial or conviction of a crime, in the name of their mental health.

The conflict between Thomas Szasz and establishment psychiatry began in the historical context of the conflict within psychiatry about whether it functions as an agent of the individual or as an agent of the state. Szasz's critique of psychiatry has two elements: first, the critique of the political function of psychiatry as an agency of social control; second, the critique of the ideology which justifies and facilitates this political function, namely, the medical model of psychiatry.

Szasz's Early Work

Szasz inaugurated his critique of the medical model of psychiatry with the publication of the now classic Myth of Mental Illness in 1961. This seminal work has been widely misunderstood and misinterpreted. Many psychiatrists to this day believe that Szasz denies that mental illness exists and even denies that mental suffering and disturbance exist. On the contrary, Szasz does not deny the existence of suffering. How foolish for anyone to think so. Szasz acknowledges the existence of mental illness, but differs from the conventional view of it. The critical point is that mental illness is not a disease which exists in people, as pneumonia exists in lung tissue. Mental illness is, rather, a name, a label, a socially useful fiction, which is ascribed to certain people who suffer or whose behavior is disturbing to themselves or others.

Szasz developed this point of view while he was a student and teacher at the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute under Franz Alexander. Alexander's work focused on the psychoanalysis of psychosomatic disorders. Szasz disagreed with his teacher on fundamental philosophical points which Szasz presented in his first book, Pain and Pleasure, published in 1957. In this book, Szasz critiqued the prevailing tendency to psychoanalyze body functions, imputing meanings to and motivations for physical diseases. Szasz's critique was based on the work of modern English philosophers such as Bertrand Russell, Gilbert Ryle, and Karl Popper.

Szasz's critique of Alexander's work was derived specifically from the empirical and logical dualism developed by Russell and Ryle.5 Russell took the epistemological position that mind-body dualism is based upon an operational dualism. Mind and body are different because psychology and the physics (including biology) are based on different methods of investigation. Knowledge about the body is obtained by means of the methods of physics observation, description, measurement, and mathematical calculation. Knowledge about the mind is obtained by means of communication through language and the interpretation of meanings. Ryle supplemented this view with the argument that, since our knowledge of other minds is based upon the meaning of the actions and speech of other persons, statements about minds and statements about bodies belong to different logical categories of language.

Szasz applied this point of view to the critique of the medical model of psychiatry. The medical model is so called because it views the mind the way medicine views the body, as an object which is explained either in terms of neurophysiology and genetics or in the language of disease, medicine, and treatment.6 In Pain and Pleasure, Szasz argued that it is logically permissible to talk about the meanings of physical disease, in the sense of our reactions to them and interpretations of them. But to talk about meanings as causes of physical disease is to conflate two operationally and logically different concepts. In The Myth of Mental Illness, Szasz moved from psychosomatic disease to conversion hysteria to demonstrate that the classification of thoughts, feelings, and behavior as diseases or as diseased is a logical error. It confuses the logical category of the body with the logical category of the mind. The term "myth," in The Myth of Mental Illness, refers to a category error as described by Gilbert Ryle. Ryle defined a myth as not a fairy story but as the presentation of the f acts from one logical category in the language appropriate to another.

Szasz's first book was not attacked by established psychiatry. In fact, Franz Alexander was so impressed by Szasz's intellect that he offered to make him his heir as Director of the Chicago Institute of Psychoanalysis.7 Szasz turned Alexander down for another offer, as we shall presently see. Szasz came into conflict with psychiatry not so much because of his ideas but because of his values. All his life, Szasz has been the emphatic champion of the values of individual freedom, dignity, and autonomy, which are in conflict with the psychiatric practices of involuntary psychiatric confinement and treatment. This is the basis of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry.

Conflict in the Department of Psychiatry at Syracuse

I can best tell the story of this historical conflict from my own point of view. I believe it is a story that needs to be told and reflected upon. It illustrates how and why intellectual thought is subtly controlled by academic power brokers and, in this case, how the repression of Thomas Szasz and his students reflects the ironic predicament of modern psychiatry.

After graduating from the medical school at Syracuse in 1957, I served a one-year internship in medicine and psychiatry at the Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York. The six-month psychiatry rotation was under John Romano, who was chairman of psychiatry, and George Engel, from whom I learned to read electroencephalograms. In 1958, I returned to Syracuse to do my residency training under Szasz. Dr. Marc Hollender had just been appointed Chairman of Psychiatry at Syracuse, by the good graces and influence of Dr. Julius Richmond, who was then Chairman of Pediatrics. Richmond was a Chicago-trained, psychoanalytically oriented pediatrician who became friendly with Hollender and Szasz when he studied at the psychoanalytic institute. He later became Dean of the Faculty at Syracuse and then Director of Head Start and Surgeon General. Later he moved to the post of Director of the Judge Baker Clinic in Boston. Hollender brought Szasz with him to Syracuse as full and tenured professor of psychiatry. The idea was to form a psychoanalytic training institute at Syracuse with Szasz as the leading intellectual. I was a resident in psychiatry at Syracuse from 1958 to 1961, and was fortunate to have read The Myth of Mental illness in manuscript form and to have discussed it vigorously with a brilliant group of co-residents in Szasz's seminars.

To understand the situation at Syracuse, it is important to recall the intellectual context of psychiatry at that time. Psychoanalysis was in ascendance. It had been increasingly popular among American intellectuals during the 1930s. In the postwar intellectual ferment of the 1950s, it became the guiding theoretical framework of psychiatry. Its derivative, dynamic psychotherapy, was the most popular therapeutic modality. Therapists who did not have psychoanalytic training but who were psychoanalytically oriented practiced dynamic psychotherapy. Psychiatric faculties across the country were recruiting training analysts for chairmanships and professorships with the same enthusiasm, conviction, and exclusivity as they now recruit neurobiologists.

Hollender's idea, as I understood it at the time, was to found a unique psychoanalytic center at Syracuse, unique because it would seek to integrate an interdisciplinary faculty and curriculum. Attempts to integrate psychiatry and psychoanalysis with psychology and the social sciences were very much in the air at the time. Hollender's predecessor, Edward Stainbrook, who was a medical psychiatrist as well as a Ph.D. psychologist, had already invited a variety of social scientists and humanities scholars from Syracuse University to participate in the undergraduate and graduate psychiatry teaching programs at the medical school.

At the time, about 35 years ago, Hollender's vision was avant-garde. It was at the cutting edge not only of psychiatric thought but of the social sciences and humanities, which were heavily influenced by psychoanalysis. Stainbrook had invited Professor Douglas Haring, an anthropologist from Syracuse University, to teach general and psychological anthropology to medical students and psychiatric residents. When Hollender took charge, he hired Ernest Becker, who had recently completed his Ph.D. in anthropology at Syracuse under Haring.

Becker and I quickly became close friends, bonded to each other by a common background as first-generation Jews; by a mutual fascination with anthropology, psychoanalysis, and intellectual history; and a by a mutual love of Italian food and films. Becker attended Szasz's seminars for psychiatric residents and began to read extensively in psychoanalytic literature, hoping to integrate psychoanalytic theory with current work in psychological anthropology. In 1961, I completed my residency and, at Hollender's invitation, joined the full-time psychiatric faculty. Gradually, Becker and I shaped a common vision which seemed to be in harmony with Hollender's vision of an interdisciplinary psychoanalytic center, namely, to bring modern knowledge from the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, and philosophy to bear on a new understanding of the forms of mental suffering which are designated as mental illness. Toward this end, I took a master's degree in philosophy at Syracuse University and also taught the sociology of personal development and deviance under Paul Meadows.

The next few years were intellectually productive for Szasz, Becker, and myself. Szasz followed The Myth of Mental Illness with Law, Liberty and Psychiatry, the third of 25 books he has published to this date. Becker wrote the first edition of The Birth and Death of Meaning, in which he attempted to integrate psychoanalytic and anthropological concepts of human personality development. Next, he wrote a potentially seminal book which, tragically, has been widely ignored by psychiatrists, The Revolution in Psychiatry. In this book, Becker adopts the eclectic spirit at Syracuse and the spirit of Szasz's critique of the medical model by initiating a project for the development of a nonmedical, interdisciplinary view of such alleged mental illnesses as schizophrenia and depression. I recommend this book highly to those interested in a fresh and non-reductionistic view of depression and schizophrenia. Becker's hopes for the development of a new humanistic science were dashed by developments at Syracuse, but he continued to write as he pursued the painful career of a peripatetic intellectual.

For my small part, I published in two directions. I wrote a number of articles critical of the legal and social functions of psychiatry.8 At the same time, I was working with Ernest, in the context of our friendship, toward an interdisciplinary, nonmedical understanding of the various psychiatric diagnoses. In this period, I wrote a nonmedical formulation of the problem of phobias.9 I was in the process of developing an introductory textbook of psychiatry for a course taught to sophomore medical students. I was also writing a political and sociological critique of psychiatry, which appeared in 1969 as In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry.

The dark clouds of conflict soon appeared on the horizon, however, and the dream of a school of autonomous, interdisciplinary intellects striving together to understand the problems of human life vanished in the storm.

In 1962, after The Myth of Mental Illness had been published, Szasz testified in the Onondaga County trial of John Chomentowski. Mr. Chomentowski owned a small gasoline station which he sold to a prominent real estate developer. When the developer tried to take over the property earlier than had been agreed, Mr. Chomentowski threatened the company's agents with a shotgun which he fired into the air. He was arrested and the prosecutors, aided by testimony of government psychiatrists, convinced the court that Chomentowski was not mentally competent to stand trial. Chomentowski was then committed to Matteawan State Hospital for the Criminally Insane, in spite of the fact that he had not been convicted of a crime. Szasz testified at a habeas corpus hearing in which Chomentowski was suing to gain his freedom from confinement. The trial, which I attended, was a highly anticipated event in psychiatric circles, since for the first time Szasz was in an adversarial confrontation with conventional psychiatrists in a public forum.

Szasz's testimony was eloquent, witty, and bold. Testifying for the defendant, he stated frankly under questioning that he did not believe that mental illnesses are true medical diseases but, rather, are psychiatric fictions. He believed that mental hospitals are prisons and that, in effect, Mr. Chomentowski had been imprisoned without having been convicted of a crime. He translated the state hospital psychiatrists' psycho-babble testimony into ordinary language with devastating effect. What the psychiatrists called psychotic aggression Szasz called anger at false confinement. What the psychiatrists called psychotic withdrawal Szasz translated as the unwillingness to consort with one's enemies. What the psychiatrists called contractions of his blepharal and facial muscles Szasz called "blinking." The state psychiatrists from Marcy State Hospital in nearby Rome, where Chomentowski was being held for examination and trial, were humiliated and angered.

Present in the courtroom was Abraham Halpern, then Commissioner of Mental Health for Onondaga County. He sat at the prosecutor's table, coaching the District Attorneys. He felt outraged by Szasz's testimony and made his feelings known. His protests reached the ears of the State Commissioner of Mental Hygiene, Dr. Paul Hoch. Simultaneously, the state hospital psychiatrists complained to the director of their hospital, Dr. Newton Bigelow, who was also editor of the then-prestigious psychiatric journal, The Psychiatric Quarterly. Bigelow published an article in his journal condemning Szasz, "Szasz for the Gander."(10) In response to the complaints by the state psychiatrists, Dr. Hoch issued an order banning Dr. Thomas Szasz from teaching psychiatric residents at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. To understand the significance of this order, it is necessary to know how Hollender's department of psychiatry was set up.

Hollender had a dual appointment as both chairman of the department of psychiatry at the medical school and as director of the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital, which was a state hospital. In addition, many of the faculty of the department of psychiatry also had joint appointments as visiting staff at the hospital, including Szasz. This arrangement was and is today quite common. Many of the faculty of medical school departments of psychiatry around the country are also directors or staff of government-run hospitals. The critical fact in this case is that Hollender decided to locate his office for both positions at the state hospital. Using state funds, he constructed for himself a very comfortable office at the hospital from which he conducted departmental business. In addition, Hollender refurbished a meeting room at the hospital where the department held its weekly scientific and faculty meetings.

When Szasz was notified that his appointment as visiting psychiatrist at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital was terminated, he boycotted the hospital, including the departmental meetings which were held at the hospital, on the basis that if he was not permitted to teach there, he should not attend teaching clinics conducted there. This created a conflict between Szasz and Hollender which split the department apart. Several faculty members, including the psychologists Ed Engel and Charles Reed, Becker, and myself joined Szasz in boycotting the hospital. Those who joined the boycott did not all necessarily agree with Szasz's analysis of the concept of mental illness, but they all found unacceptable the attempt by an official of the state to censor and repress a member of an academic faculty.

Hollender responded by offering to move the scientific faculty meetings to the medical school. This did not satisfy Szasz or other members of the faculty, however. They believed that Hoch's and Hollender's repression of Szasz made it clear that the teaching faculties of an academic department of psychiatry must be autonomous and independent of the state or the freedom of inquiry and expression would be jeopardized. They requested that Hollender choose between being director of the state hospital or being chairman of the department of psychiatry. If he was to continue as chairman of psychiatry, he should resign as director of the hospital and move his office to the medical school.

Hollender declined to choose. He took the position that the state hospital was the flagship of the department and he was admiral of both. Interpersonal tensions in the department intensified. Szasz's supporters took seriously the threat by the state to intimidate and repress academic faculty. Most of the faculty who had joint appointments at the medical school and the Syracuse Psychiatric or the nearby Veteran's Administration Hospital, which also had a closed ward with involuntary patients, were hostile toward Szasz. They rejected his critique of the medical model and believed he was creating unnecessary conflict. Some people believed that Szasz should not even be allowed to teach The Myth of Mental Illness to students, interns, and residents at the medical school. The conflicts were both personal and ideological, the one fueling the other until the department was divided into two hostile camps.

Some members of the faculty contrived a secret scheme to lure Szasz into insubordination so they could fire him in spite of his tenure. One principled member of the group, Dr. Richard Phillips, withdrew and notified Szasz of the attempt. Szasz hired a young lawyer from the local law school, George Alexander, later dean of the law school at the University of California at Santa Clara, to defend him against his accusers. The dean of the medical school, Carlysle Jacobsen, appointed faculty committees to investigate the conflict. The AAUP committee, chaired by Dr. Peter Witt, found that Szasz's academic freedom had, indeed, been violated.

Hollender was exasperated by this conflict, which had stalled his quest for psychiatric empire. One day, Hollender telephoned Becker to request his appearance in Hollender's office at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. Some medical students had asked Hollender whether the psychiatric teaching program had been compromised by the conflict between him and Szasz. Hollender asked the students where they had heard such a story. They told him they heard it from Becker. Hollender was indignant. He accusingly demanded to know from Becker whether he was warning prospective interns and residents away from the department.

I was present when Becker returned Hollender's call. We had discussed how he might respond. Becker told Hollender that he would not meet him at the hospital because he was not on the staff of the hospital, he was on the faculty of the medical school. The administrators of the hospital had banned a faculty colleague from teaching there and so he would prefer to meet Hollender at the medical school. Hollender refused and, once again, ordered Becker to come down to Hollender's office in the state Hospital. Becker refused. Hollender fired him on the spot!

On the one hand, Hollender might seem to have had some justification for firing Becker on the grounds of insubordination. On the other hand, Becker was one of Szasz's most vocal defenders. His ideas and writings were influenced by or were in harmony with Szasz's views. Becker was even interviewing a few patients by Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital under Szasz's supervision. Firing Becker was a way for Hollender to strike back at Szasz.

After leaving the medical school, Becker had a tragic-glorious peripatetic career.11 He spent 1965 in Rome writing what he thought would be his monumental work, The Structure of Evil.12 He then returned for a one-year appointment in the department of anthropology at Syracuse University, sponsored by his close friend Professor Agehananda Bharati. This was followed by a second year in Sociology, hosted by his friend Professor Paul Meadows, who was chairman. The following year, Becker replaced Erving Goffman at Berkeley on Goffman's recommendation. He won a brief moment of fame there when he was written up in Time magazine because the student body at Berkeley petitioned for Becker to be rehired, and, in an unprecedented move offered to pay his salary out of the student organization's treasury. But the university refused. It would have been too dangerous for them to rehire a professor who was a social critic and also popular with the students at time of political protest and upheaval.

Becker then moved across the bay to San Francisco State University where he worked happily until 1968, when S.I. Hayakawa, then president of the university, called police on campus to repress student demonstrations against the war in Vietnam. Becker resigned in protest in a heroic gesture, since he had three children and no prospect of any job elsewhere. The only offer he received was from Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada, where he remained in exile until his premature death from colon cancer in 1974.

Two months after he died, Becker was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in Nonfiction for his book The Denial of Death. This highly prestigious award represents the recognition by the literary community of the high merit of Becker's work. Yet Becker has never been recognized by establishment psychiatry in spite of the fact that he wrote continuously on psychiatric issues from his days in Syracuse until he died. His work has been totally ignored. To establishment psychiatry, Becker was tainted by his association with the reviled Szasz. In effect, Becker was indexed and repressed. He was the victim of modern society's favorite method of repressing its critics—what the Germans call Todschweigen (Tod = death; schweigen = silence)—death by silence.

After Becker left, I continued as an assistant professor at the department of psychiatry, teaching, writing, and speaking my mind on a variety of psychiatric issues, including the social functions of psychiatry and nonmedical conceptualizations of the problems of human suffering. During this period, I completed the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health. In 1966, frustrated by his hostile standoff with Szasz, Hollender resigned as chairman of the department and was replaced by Dr. David Robinson, an ally of Hollender's who even more vehemently opposed Szasz's critique of psychiatry and the concept of mental illness.

The department was still trying to continue its liaison with social scientists and other scholars from Syracuse University. A committee was formed, of which I was an appointed member whose job was to nominate social scientists from Syracuse University to teach the psychiatric residents and interns. I taught at Syracuse and knew the faculties of the social sciences and humanities, and I nominated Ernest Becker and Stanley Diamond, an outstanding anthropologist who later became professor at the New School, as the best suited to teach medical students and psychiatric residents. My colleague on the committee, Dr. Robert W. Daly, now Professor of Medical Humanities at the Health Sciences Center at Syracuse, agreed on these nominations, as did Dr. Bradley Starr, chairman of the committee, although Starr was doubtful that Robinson would approve of either of these men.

A few days later, Starr informed me that Robinson had indeed vetoed both Becker and Diamond as candidates to teach the psychiatric residents. I could understand why he vetoed Becker. Hollender, although no longer chairman, was still in the department and it would have been awkward for him to face Becker. I could not imagine, however, why Robinson objected to Diamond, who had nothing to do with Szasz or the Szasz affair. I protested to Starr. The next day, Robinson burst into my office and announced that he did not intend to renew my appointment. Since I was a junior faculty member without tenure, this meant, in effect, that I had been fired.

I appealed to the local and national chapters of the AAUP on the grounds that, although I did not have tenure, the university did not have the right to dismiss me because of my views. They could fire me without reason, or for such justifiable reasons as insubordination, dereliction, incompetence, or flagrant immorality. But they could not fire me because the chairman opposed my views, my speech, or my writings.

In a meeting with Dr. Jacobsen, Dean of the Faculty at the medical school, Robinson said he would not renew my appointment because he "did not need two French professors in his department," meaning that he had been sufficiently provoked by Szasz and did not want another thorn in his side. In other words, everyone else in the department could share Robinson's views, but if I shared Szasz's views, I was excess baggage.

To my further amazement, Robinson boldly admitted that he did not want me on the faculty because he did not want my book published while I was a member of the department. He said that he was afraid that with both Szasz and me writing, publishing, and teaching our heretical views, the department at Syracuse might become known as "anti-psychiatry" and might not be funded by the NIMH, with obvious unpleasant consequences for him and the department. Jacobsen, acting in the great tradition of academic administrators, chose to avoid conflict with a department chairman. He imposed a compromise. He conceded that the department had fired me without adequate notice since Robinson had fired me in March effective the following September while AAUP regulations provided for one year's notice to give the rejected member time to find another job. So Jacobsen gave me a six-month extension on my appointment—a delay of execution.

On another occasion, Robinson arrogantly admitted to me that he did not want either Becker or Diamond to teach in his department because he believed both men were eastern radical-liberal troublemakers who were stirring up dissent by participating in civil rights and anti-war protests. The implication was clear that Robinson believed that I, too, was a member of this group of traitors.

Becker and I were both victims of the psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz. In my view, Robinson, Jacobsen, and the State University abridged my First Amendment rights of free expression. If one believes in the value of ideas and the right to express ideas, which is supposedly protected by the First Amendment, this is a serious matter. I do not think that my experience is unique. I saw a generation of brilliant intellectuals driven off university campuses because they studied and talked about Marx or some other out-of-favor thinker, or because they fought in the civil rights and anti-war struggles of the 1960s. In my view, the same situation exists today in universities and medical school departments of psychiatry. I do not believe thought is free in America. Thought is a controlled substance, repressed and regulated by representatives of various prevailing interests. Many of my friends on the medical school faculty were horrified by this situation, but felt powerless to do anything about it. The AAUP committee of the medical school, after painful debate, decided not to challenge the administration on constitutional grounds.

It was a painful experience, but my fate, or that of Becker or Szasz as individuals, is relatively insignificant in the scheme of history. More significant, it seems to me, are the questions of whether the right to the free expression of ideas was violated at Syracuse and, if so, what are the motives and consequences of such repression?

We can only speculate what course psychiatric history might have taken had Szasz not been repressed and had Becker and I not been fired from the medical school at Syracuse. Our dynamic trio would likely have attracted at least a few interested students. And some of these students might have matured, made their own unique contributions, and, in turn, drawn more interested students. Possibly, a school of thought might have developed at Syracuse which would provide a critical alternative to the current ideological hegemony of contemporary medical-coercive psychiatry.

As it is, neither Szasz, Becker, nor I have had any students, in the sense that most university professors and elders of various intellectual traditions usually have the opportunity to teach and guide their heirs of the next generation. After the crisis with Hollender was resolved, Szasz remained at Syracuse as full professor, but out of the spotlight and off stage. He was not asked and did not volunteer to teach psychiatric residents. He no longer presented papers or participated in the discussion at faculty meetings. He wrote and published prolifically, traveled and lectured widely and frequently, but was silent at Syracuse.

I too was, in effect, blackballed from academic psychiatry. I applied for faculty positions elsewhere, but I was condemned by my association with Szasz and by the evidence of my own writings. I submitted the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health to Basic Books. They accepted and I went to Mexico on an extended adventure. When I returned, the editor at Basic Books, Irving Kristol, called me and withdrew the offer. Basic Books would have to reject my book, he confessed apologetically, because the psychiatrists to whom they gave the book to review were so outraged by it that they threatened to boycott Basic Books if they published it. Todschweigen! I was repressed and negated by psychiatrists who threatened to boycott my prospective publisher.

I have spent the last 30 years in the glorious isolation of private practice, continuing to study and write, striving to develop a nonmedical view on the problems of mental and emotional suffering. Having been disillusioned by the coercive and repressive influences in Western psychiatry and psychology, I turned elsewhere for insight and understanding. Over the years, my interest has increasingly turned to a study of the Buddhist view of mind.

Over the past 20 years, I have studied under several distinguished Tibetan Lamas, particularly Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, Abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, a Karma Kagyu monastery near Woodstock, New York. I was one of the organizers of the first Karma Kagyu Conference on Buddhism and Psychotherapy at International House in New York in 1987. I invited Tom Szasz and R. D. Laing to be two of the main Western speakers at this conference. For the past two years, I have been a student at the Namgyal Monastery Institute for Buddhist Studies in Ithaca, New York, which was founded by the Dalai Lama. I have just completed a comparative study of Buddhist and Western views on suffering and the causes of suffering, called The Happiness Project.13 I am now working on a manuscript on the emotions as viewed from a combined Buddhist and Western perspective.

In my view, obviously textured by my own personal experiences, the events at Syracuse are significant because they represent the repression and abortion of a school of ideas. I believe that ideas are important. E. A. Burtt once wrote that the concept a people has of its world is its most important possession. How we see the world shapes how we act in it. The repression of Szasz at Syracuse is symptomatic of a society which, like Oedipus Rex, blinds itself to the truth it does not want to see.

Szasz was banned from the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital because of his views and his values. In contrast to the followers of the medical model, Szasz acknowledges and appreciates the differences between mind and body, and does not try to reduce the former to the latter. Unlike most modern psychiatrists, Szasz opposed the common practice of oppressing individuals through psychiatric labeling and involuntary commitment.

Szasz was repressed because his critique of the medical model threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists. Becker and I were fired not simply because we defended the academic freedom of a colleague, or even because we were friends of Szasz. We were fired because we were writing and publishing prolifically and thus also represented a threat to psychiatric ideology and psychiatric identity. In my view, the events at Syracuse constitute the control and suppression of thought for social and political purposes, something we assume does not happen in this country, but which happens so persistently and inexorably that we choose to ignore it.

The Significance of the Psychiatric Repression of Szasz

What is the significance of the repression of Thomas Szasz and the possible abortion of a critical school of thought in psychiatry? To probe this question, we must trace the recent history of psychiatry. In the early 1960s when Szasz was first repressed, psychiatry was at a crossroads, a crisis of identity. The psychoanalytic tradition had reached the zenith of its influence and several formidable problems had been exposed. Psychoanalytic therapy had become the most powerful and most popular form of treatment of mental illness. The problem was that it is a nonmedical treatment. It can be practiced equally well by psychologists, social workers, and other skilled nonmedical professionals as well as by physicians. The increasing number of nonmedical psychotherapists not only threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists, it also threatened the economic interests of psychiatrists by competing for psychiatric patients at a lower fee. A second and related problem was that the basic sciences of psychoanalysis are psychology and the social sciences. A sophisticated spectrum of neo-psychoanalytic, nonmedical theories of mental illness was under development by men like Erving Goffman, Norman O. Brown, and particularly by the French existentialists. Szasz, with his reinterpretation of conversion hysteria in The Myth of Mental Illness, Becker, with his new theories on schizophrenia, depression, and the neurotic sexual fetishes, and my contribution on phobias14 were on the frontier of this development.

The problem for psychiatry was that its medical identity was being eroded by psychoanalysis. Szasz's critique of the medical model and of coercive psychiatric practices was perceived by medical psychiatrists as an added threat to their legitimacy. Medical doctors in other specialties were growing increasingly skeptical that psychiatrists were really kin under the sheepskin. Nonmedical therapists, often well trained and competent, were competing with medical psychiatrists for fees. Psychiatrists who worked for the state, particularly those who worked with involuntary patients in mental hospitals or clinics and who adhered to a Kraepelinian model of medical diagnoses, were becoming increasingly hostile toward psychoanalysis and psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrists in private practice.

Over the years, psychiatric anger toward Szasz and those who agree with his point of view has been further provoked by the mental patient's survivor movement. The medical- coercive psychiatrists and their sympathizers have come increasingly under criticisms and attack by survivors of psychiatric abuse—victims of involuntary confinement and forced drugging and electroshock.15 We have recently become more sensitive to the endemic horrors of sexual abuse and child abuse, thanks to the media. However, we have not discovered, or have not yet been willing to admit, the degree of endemic psychiatric abuse by means of involuntary confinement and forced treatment. Our denial is reinforced by psychiatrists who regard the victims of psychiatric abuse as mentally ill and therefore incompetent to form valid feelings or complaints. This is similar to saying that a rape victim asked for it. The mental patient survivors and self-help movement is autonomous and driven by its own motives, but it has, over the years, been inspired and supported by Szasz, Peter Breggin16 (a student of Szasz's and mine at Syracuse), me, and other critics of coercive medical psychiatry. This has contributed to the psychiatric anger toward Szasz and his supporters.

Hollender embraced both sides of this inner conflict of psychiatry in that he was both a psychoanalytically trained chairman of an academic department of psychiatry and a director of a state hospital. The situation at Syracuse was representative of the conflict within psychiatry as a whole and, thus, was primed and ready for the explosion that occurred.

At the same time, other developments in psychiatry were strengthening the hand of those who subscribe to the medical model. The era of tranquilizers had arrived with the introduction of Thorazine in 1954. The success of the new tranquilizers in controlling the inmates of psychiatric institutions was exploited by medical psychiatrists to bolster their argument that mental illnesses have a biological basis. Increasing funds were invested by pharmaceutical companies to develop new anti-psychotic and antidepressant drugs and the NIMH increasingly favored research to study the safety and efficacy of these drugs, thus underwriting the medical model.

As narrowly funded research seemed to confirm and explain the efficacy of psychoactive drugs, the false impression was created that psychiatry had become an objective, quantifiable, "hard" biological science. As new generations of drugs were developed, the pharmacological treatment of mental illness appeared to be more cost- effective and became more popular. This trend has continued to the present day, when, under managed care, drug treatment of mental illness is the preferred modality and psychiatrists are now primarily trained as psychopharmacologists rather than as psychotherapists. Psychotherapy has largely been taken over by nonmedical therapists! This is the historical context of the conflict between establishmentarian, medical-model psychiatry and its critics such as Szasz, Becker, and me.

But the pendulum of history may now be swinging the other way. The biological approach to mental illness may have reached a point where its weaknesses, problems, and contradictions are becoming clear, just as they did after psychoanalysis was in vogue for a few decades. The biological model of mental illness has been successful, in part, because it has identified itself with modern science and, thus, basks in the prestige of modern science. Present-day psychiatric theories assert that mental illness is basically brain disease, that schizophrenia and depression are basically caused by genetic predisposition to "chemical imbalances"—excessive dopamine in the case of the former and insufficient serotonin in the case of the latter. This point of view helps to solidify psychiatric identity as medical and carves out for psychiatrists a monopoly on the pharmacological treatment of mental illnesses.

Present biological theories of mental illness, however, are highly problematic. In the first place, they are incomplete, because they are biological, reductionistic, and ignore the psychological dimensions of human experience and thus ignore what is most characteristic of and fundamental to the human experience. Secondly, they are weak in themselves, having been deduced entirely, and not entirely logically, from the actions of tranquilizers and antidepressants on neurotransmitters.

The fact that Prozac, for instance, which boosts intersynaptic serotonin, can help lift depression does not logically imply that the depression is caused by low brain serotonin. It may equally well be, and is in my opinion more likely, that the individual's psychological response to life events conditions the levels of brain serotonin. In spite of the strident brain reductionism of modern biological psychiatrists, there is strong scientific evidence that experience influences the brain's physical structure and development. Spitz's famous studies showed that babies will die without sufficient love. Children will lose their capacity for speech if they have not learned to talk by a certain age. A crowd of sports fans in a frenzy over the last-minute victory of their team will undoubtedly have elevated blood catecholamines. Is their excitement due to the elevated catecholamines or to the thrill of victory?

While psychiatrists are publicly engaged in a media blitz to propagandize the idea that mental illnesses are medical diseases which are treatable with medications, privately they admit that their research is flawed and their theories are, as yet, unproved. Every few years they convene a committee to write a new diagnostic and statistical manual (DSM), in which the primary proof of the existence of the diagnostic categories of mental illness is that psychiatrists, who train each other to see them, believe they exist. Natalie Angier, science writer for the New York Times, says what no psychiatrist will publicly admit: that they "want badly to transform their discipline into a hard, quantifiable science that is on a par with molecular biology, or genetics, but they have often been frustrated. Every time they think they have unearthed a real, analyzable gene to explain a mental disorder like manic depression or alcoholism, the finding dissolves on closer inspection or is cast into doubt."17

To make matters worse, psychiatry bears the historical guilt of having purged itself of critics. No supporter of Szasz's views on mental illness would be appointed to full-time position by an academic department of psychiatry to teach psychiatric residents. I know this from my own personal experience. In spite of his international reputation, Szasz's papers are routinely rejected by psychiatric journals. He has, in effect, been excommunicated.

“As a result of the persecution of Szasz at Syracuse and elsewhere, there are no critics of psychiatry from within its ranks. This, in itself, should disqualify psychiatric theory as scientific.” The essence of scientific method is critical inquiry. The basic principle of scientific discovery is the null hypothesis, that is, the hypothesis which, when it is advanced, is presumed to be false and is subject to exhaustive testing, checking, and criticism before it is even accepted as provisionally valid.

Psychiatric thought more closely resembles political ideology than it does science in that it is presented and certified by a power elite, the psychiatric establishment, who promote and propagandize their views as official dogma and who dismiss, exclude, and persecute dissenters. Psychiatric thought is not the product of a free market of ideas. It is carefully controlled and disseminated. And it serves the economic and psycho-social interests of those who purvey it by promoting their medical identity and justifying their right to receive part of the national health care budget. This does not mean that the costs of alleviating the emotional sufferings of life should not be distributed equally through insurance programs, whether private or public. It means that if we distort our perception of the problems of life by viewing them as medical illnesses, we are disabling our abilities to deal with these problems effectively in order to justify the sharing of its costs.

The persecution and repression of Thomas Szasz and his school of thought, and the corresponding supremacy of the medical model of mental illness, presents two critical problems, one for psychiatry and the population it serves and the other for society as a whole. An exclusively biological approach to problems of mental suffering and disability is, at best, partial and incomplete and, at worst, disempowering and disabling to the consumers of mental health services. It sends the explicit message that people are not responsible for the forms of suffering which are labeled as mental illness.

There are certain kinds of suffering for which the individual cannot be held responsible, and others for which he or she can. Certainly, people are not responsible for their medical illnesses, except in cases where they are self-induced, like cancer of the lung from smoking cigarettes. On the other hand, there is a degree of suffering that we cause ourselves because of our ignorance, our selfishness, our greed, and our aggression.

Ancient wisdom teaches that a portion of our suffering is the result of defects of moral character. The Greeks, too, knew that character is fate. Sophocles said that "the greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves."18 The Judeo-Christian Bible is a book of ethics based on the belief that evil-doing is punished with suffering and virtue is rewarded with happiness. The moral teachings of the Judeo-Christian prophets, on which the values of Western civilization are based, tell us, in effect, that although life is a "valley of tears" we are, nevertheless, responsible for some portion of our suffering.

We are responsible, at least, for how we suffer, for example, whether we suffer patiently, like Job, or with aggression. We are also responsible for that portion of our suffering that we cause ourselves. We are responsible for the consequences or our words and deeds. This is the law of Karma, or, as the saying goes: "What goes around comes around." These are profound moral teachings and they are compatible with the view of most modern psychotherapists, who, whether or not they believe in the medical model, practice therapy on the assumption that we can increase our measure of happiness through self-knowledge and self-discipline.

Innumerable patients have come to me with the complaint that they have a "chemical imbalance." They have been told by other therapists, or have heard in the media, or have read in misleading NIMH pamphlets, that their sufferings—their depression, their anxiety, their guilt, their anger, their enthusiasm, their addiction to drugs or food, their obsessions and compulsions—are due to biochemical imbalances in their brain. They have no idea what these chemical imbalances are. But they believe they are the cause of their misery. As a result, they have not the slightest insight into or interest in the way in which their mental attitudes, orientations, and responses to life events cause their suffering and symptoms. They have become blind to the human dimensions of their lives, to the nature of their own experience, and thus have handicapped their ability to deal with the problems of life.

By discouraging people from taking responsibility for themselves, for their own behavior, emotions, and modes of thinking, biological psychiatry contributes to the current political atmosphere of the dissipation of moral values and the abandonment of personal responsibility. In this century, we have seen the balance between individual freedom and state power swing away from the individual and toward the state. As it swings toward the state, the individual is deprived both of freedom and the responsibilities which are intrinsic to the exercise of freedom. Modern psychiatry has contributed to the momentum of this swing by promoting an ideology which is biologically reductionistic and explains human thoughts, feelings, and behavior on the basis of brain physiology.

After completing his presidency, Dwight Eisenhower warned the American people that the military-industrial complex, which was largely responsible for victory in World War II, was the greatest danger to peace. As we approach the millennium, we must be aware of a new danger. The State-Science Alliance, upon which our forefathers relied instead of religion for human progress, is now the greatest threat to that progress.

The psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz is a symptom of the rise of the State-Science Alliance—the ascendance of the ethics and technology for managing and controlling people and the simultaneous decline of the ethics of individual freedom, dignity, and responsibility. In the context of history, the conflict is between a narrowly scientific, biological-reductionistic view of human beings, which interprets behavior as the product of brain chemistry and justifies depriving certain individuals of their freedom against their will, and a humanistic view which integrates biological science into a multidimensional perspective on the individual as moral agent. To humanists all over the world, Szasz is a hero who has fought long and hard and with great personal sacrifice for the values of individual rights, freedom, and dignity, and against the paternalistic state and psychiatrists who function as agents of the state to manage, control, and repress the individual.

The issue came to a focus recently when Darryl Strawberry, star outfielder of the Los Angeles Dodgers, quit playing baseball, reportedly because he had a problem with drugs and had to enter a treatment program for addiction. Tommy Lasorda, manager of the Dodgers, criticized Strawberry for his lack of moral character because he yielded to the temptation of drugs. Tipper Gore, wife of the U.S. Vice-President and champion of medical-model coercive psychiatry, chastened Lasorda for his ignorance. Every educated person today knows, Tipper Gore said, that addiction is a disease and that Strawberry, therefore, is the victim of mental illness. Perhaps only old Szasz fans and old Dodger fans like me believe Tommy Lasorda.

Notes

  1. Rael J. Isaac, and Virginia C. Armat, Madness in the Streets: How Psychiatry and the Law Abandoned the Mentally Ill. (New York: The Free Press. 1990).
  2. Karl Mannheim, Ideology and Utopia (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1929).
  3. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  4. Ronald Leifer, In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry (New York: Science House, 1969); Ronald Leifer, "The Medical Model as the Ideology of the Therapeutic State," Journal of Mind and Behavior, 11, nos. 3 and 4 (Summer and Autumn 1990), pp. 247-258; Thomas Szasz, Law, Liberty and Psychiatry (New York: Macmillan, 1963).
  5. Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Matter (New York: Dover Publications, 1954), and Logic and Knowledge, Charles Marsh, Ed. (London: Allen and Unwin, 1956); Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1949).
  6. Szasz is uncomfortable with the term "medical model" because, he says, "medical doctors don't deprive people of their freedom" (personal communication). Psychiatrists use only those aspects of the medical model that are useful to their interests. By this definition, the medical model refers to a view of the mind on the template of the body and the brain. This results in a biological or neurophysiological reductionism for explaining thoughts, feelings, and behavior.
  7. Personal communication from Tom Szasz.
  8. Ronald Leifer,"The Competence of the Psychiatrist to Assist in the Determination of Incompetency: A Skeptical Inquiry into the Courtroom Functions of Psychiatrists," Syracuse Law Review, 14, no. 4 (Summer 1963), pp. 564- 575. See also Leifer, "Psychiatric Expert Testimony and Criminal Responsibility," American Psychologist, 19, no. 11 (November 1964), pp. 825-830.
  9. Ronald Leifer, "Avoidance and Mastery: An Interactional View of Phobias," Journal of Individual Psychology, 22, no. 1 (May 1966), pp. 80-93.
  10. Newton Bigelow, "Szasz for the Gander," Psychiatric Quarterly 36, no. 4 (1962) pp. 754- 767.
  11. Ronald Leifer, "Ernest Becker: A Biography." In International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Volume II (New York: Harper and Row, 1978). See also Leifer, "The Legacy of Ernest Becker." Kairos,2, (1986), pp. 8-21.
  12. Ernest Becker, The Structure of Evil: An Essay on the Unification of the Science of Man (New York: Braziller, 1968).
  13. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project: Transforming the Three Poisons Which Are the Causes of the Suffering We Inflict on Ourselves and Others (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  14. Ernest Becker, Revolution in Psychiatry (New York: The Free Press, 1969); Ernest Becker, Angel in Armor: A Post-Freudian perspective on the Nature of man (New York: George Braziller, 1969); Leifer, Avoidance and mastery.
  15. Kate Millet, The Loony Bin Trip (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990).
  16. Peter Breggin, Toxic psychiatry (New York, St. Martin's Press, 1992).
  17. Natalie Angier, Review of Torrey, E.F., et al., Schizophrenia and Manic Depressive Disorder, in New York Times Book Review, April 17, 1994.
  18. Sophocles, Oedipus Rex. In The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles, Paul Roche, trans. (New York: Mentor Books, 1991).

What Do We Believe and Whom Do We Trust?

Caitlin had been referred by her physician because he could find no organic cause for her symptoms. She had complained of a variety of medical problems that led to being run through a gauntlet of tests, scans, and diagnostic procedures, all negative. Yet her problems, regardless of their origin, seemed to worsen over time. Caitlin was hardly the most expressive or verbal client I'd seen.

Although in her mid-twenties, she reminded me of some adolescents who would rarely speak; in her case she was virtually mute.

"What can I help you with?" I asked to begin our first session. Shrug.

"You're not sure?" Another shrug.

Was she playing a game with me? Was I being tested? Did she have laryngitis or a mental handicap? I could not be sure.

After five long minutes of silence in which she stared at the floor, seemingly fascinated by the weave of the carpet, I had finally had enough. "Look Caitlin, I'm not sure what you expect of me or why you're here. The only thing that I know is that your doctor sent you to me because he couldn't help you. I understand you are having a lot of problems, and, apparently, he thinks it might be helpful for you to talk about them. But I can't help you unless you tell me what's going on."

Incredibly, Caitlin shrugged again but this time offered a wry smile.

Now I was determined to wait her out. There was something going on here that I did not understand, but I sensed that pushing her further was not going to work. I just wanted to get through the hour and send her on her way. Obviously, she was not ready for therapy.

We sat silently for the rest of the session, Caitlin alternately staring at the floor and some undetermined spot over my left shoulder. I checked a few times, just to see what was so interesting, but it was one of the few blank spots on the wall. Maybe she was projecting her own images. At this point I did not know or care; I was already thinking about my next client and what I could do to make up for this disaster.

Imagine my surprise when the session finally ended and Caitlin said to me, "Same time next week?"

I was taken by such surprise that all I could do was nod my head. Now I was the one who was rendered mute.

The second session repeated the pattern of the first: Caitlin took her seat but would not speak. She just sat there, apparently comfortable and unconcerned with the silence. Even though I was prepared for this eventuality, and had rehearsed several things I might do to draw her out, each overture was met with a shrug or ignored altogether. By the time the second session ended, I was resolved that I'd had enough: no more "same time next week."

I was just about to call for an end to this charade, pretending to be therapy, when Caitlin abruptly stood up, handed me an envelope, and exited, stage left. I was dumbfounded, frozen in place, holding this offering in my hand, unsure what to do next. I told myself that I should just put it aside for now—it could not be good news—but my curiosity got the better of me. I ripped open the envelope to find a five-page single-spaced letter in which Caitlin had outlined the sorry state of her life. It included all the things that a client would normally reveal in the first few sessions, talking about her early history, her family situation, her living arrangements, employment, and cogently reviewing all her various physical symptoms. She ended the self-report by stating that she hoped I understood how difficult it was for her to talk about these things and asked if I could be patient with her. She said she would return the following week if I'd still be willing to see her.

What could I say to that? I just shook my head, eager to resume this "conversation" during our next meeting. Oh, did I mention that I assumed that the structure of our communication might change? No such luck. It was more of the same: continual and unremitting silence. In response to everything I brought up from her letter, Caitlin would smile or shrug or sometimes frown and shake her head. I was so desperate, that seemed like progress: at least now I could get a tentative yes or no in response to a question.

"Caitlin," I tried again, "you wrote in your letter that you live with your brother. How's that working out?" Shrug.

"Just okay? You mentioned in your letter that you were close." She nodded her head.

And so it went, another frustrating, laborious, tedious (did I mention frustrating?) hour.

Fast forward five months. I have now seen Caitlin every week at our appointed weekly time. We are talking now. Or at least I am mostly talking and she occasionally rewards me with an actual verbal yes or no response, and sometimes she even utters a whole sentence. But basically she does not say much—until she hands me a letter at the end of the session that basically answers every question I asked the previous session and even a few things I wondered about but had not yet broached. I have certainly never done therapy quite like this, and it sure is hard work, but I tell myself that she is coming back, so she must be getting something out of the experience.

Another few months go by and I eventually learn a lot about Caitlin's life and her predicament. Her physician has been increasingly concerned because of abrasions in her vagina and burns on her breasts, wounds that appeared to be self-inflicted. When I asked her about this, Caitlin immediately clammed up and would not talk about them at all, even in a follow-up letter. The doctor called a week later to tell me that he "fired" Caitlin as a patient, refusing to see her any longer. I assumed this was because she was playing the same kind of silent treatment games with him that she was acting out with me, but I was wrong. Apparently, Caitlin had been left alone in an examining room when a nurse unexpectedly entered and found her holding the thermometer that had been placed in her mouth underneath the flame of a lighter to artificially raise the temperature and fake a fever. All of a sudden things started to fall in place, and the doctor realized that he was dealing with a case of Munchausen syndrome in which Caitlin had been manufacturing various disorders and diseases all along as an excuse for attention. This was clearly a case for psychological treatment, way out of his domain—and firmly back into mine.

But this called into question everything that she had thus far told me in her letters. How much of this was really true? How much could I trust anything that she had related to me? If she had been willing to fake her various ailments, and lie about her symptoms, what was to say that anything about her history was true? How could I work with a client who was now identified as a chronic liar?

I'm hardly the first therapist to work with someone with Munchausen syndrome, or a factitious disorder, or a sociopath, or any other client who knowingly lies, but once these fabrications and deceit are uncovered, what are we to do with them?

After so many months invested in our relationship, I initially felt betrayed, just as I had with Jacob. But in Caitlin's case, I quickly realized this was one very vulnerable, terrified, disturbed young woman who was doing the best she could to hold things together. If she was willing to go to such extremes for attention and self-protection, what did that say about anything she would tell me in therapy? And how and when is it appropriate and safe enough to confront this issue directly?

I decided that I really did need to confront the issue of truth with Caitlin, not for my own satisfaction, but to make it possible for us to have a truly trusting relationship, maybe the first one in her life. I had by this point learned that there were all sorts of weird things going on in her family, lots of secrets and lies that had been kept hidden.

It was during the middle of one of our silent conversations that I took a deep breath and told Caitlin that I had a few things that I wanted to bring to her attention. One of the advantages of having a client who does not talk is that it is very easy to carve out time to say whatever I want and expect a fairly compliant audience. She cocked her head and actually made eye contact, signaling that she realized that something important was coming.

I told her everything that I had recently learned, that she had been making up her various ailments and faking the symptoms in order to visit the doctor, perhaps for attention and sympathy, or perhaps for other reasons that she might reveal. I presented specific, irrefutable behavioral evidence, complete with witnesses, so there would be no sense denying the "charges." Furthermore, I shared with her my concerns that all along she had been playing games with me, just as she had with the doctors giving me the silent treatment and refusing to talk (except in carefully constructed letters). She seemed to be taking this with relative calmness, so I went further and talked about how this made it difficult for me to trust her. I told her how much I cared about her, how much I wanted to know her better, how important it was for me to help her if she would let me, and how I was bringing all this up because it felt like we could never go much further unless we were more honest with one another. Maybe this is coming across as harsh, but I tried to be as gentle and loving as I could while bringing the deceit into the open. And I insisted on thinking about this as an issue of honesty in our relationship rather than as a pathological condition named after an obscure German baron.

Caitlin looked at me thoughtfully after I finished what I had to say. I fully expected complete silence and so was surprised—and delighted—that after close to nine months we had our first real face-to-face conversation. It was as if a door had been opened and she had decided to walk through and meet me, if not halfway, then a few tentative footsteps in my vicinity. For the rest of that session, and the few that followed, she told me about the sexual abuse she had experienced since she had been a child by her brother, the same brother who was still living with her, and still sneaking into her room at night. She admitted that she had been hurting herself, sticking objects in her vagina and burning her breasts with lit cigarettes, in order to discourage her brother from continuing to have sex with her. She talked about all the guilt she had been feeling and how she understood the meaning of the self-punishment. She even understood that her silence in her relationship with me was a way for her to maintain control, to take care of herself while in the room with a strange man who might hurt her the way she had been betrayed before.

Yes, I know what you are thinking: Was this true?

This time I can say, unequivocally and without reservation, yes, I am convinced that Caitlin did eventually trust me to risk revealing herself in a more honest and authentic way. How do I know that? Well, for one thing her symptoms disappeared. She moved out of the apartment where she had been living with her brother. She became functional in a whole host of other ways related to her work and other relationships. She confronted her brother, finally, and told him to never, ever come near her again or she would call the police. (I was able to get corroboration that this, in fact, did take place, and I was prepared to testify on her behalf.)

Yet would I be surprised if I ever learned that I had been scammed, that she made the whole story up, that she was still playing me—but simply changed tactics once I caught on to the previous game? Yes I would. I will never know of course. Most of the time we can never really know what is true and what is not. We have to live with this uncertainty and give people the benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise, we could never do this work or function at all.

Maybe you are not very surprised that there would not be much neat closure to our topic. You already knew there is no certainty in what we do, given the complexities and ambiguities or the territory in which we operate.

Clients Who Lie and Deceive

It is the client's job description in therapy to tell us what is going on as fully, completely, and honestly as possible, providing the most detailed and robust descriptions of complaints, life history, contextual features, and innermost thoughts and feelings. The reality of what we actually get from clients is less than ideal for a number of reasons. There are unconscious distortions and imperfect memories. Defense mechanisms operate to protect the client against pain, discomfort, and perceived attacks. Character traits may compromise trust and intimacy.

In a blog (psychcentral.com), psychologist John Grohol (2008a) asked people why they would ever lie to therapists. This was a question that he could never really understand. "If you lie to your therapist," he pointed out, "especially about something important in your life or directly related to your problems, then you're wasting your time and your therapist's time." He cites lies of omission as an example, such as a client saying he is depressed and uncertain why, yet failing to mention that his mother recently died. Or another example in which someone complains about low self-esteem but neglects to say that she binges and purges after every meal.

When Grohol first wrote his essay, musing about the ridiculousness of lying to the person who is paid to help you, he was completely unprepared for the barrage of clients who would respond on his blog. Here are a few representative reasons posted why people lie to their therapists:

I don't yet trust my therapist, partly because I'm not confident that this therapist has the skills or experience to handle my problems in the first place. (Adrivahni, January 9, 2008)

i lie to my therapist about what i'm feeling towards her. i'm embarrassed about these feelings, and when i do try to share them, they come out wrong. those are that i feel too dependent, that I want more than what she can give me, and that i find these feelings to be a sort of weakness in me. (Cameron, January 9, 2008)

We all lie to our shrinks, just like we lie to our dentists (Sure, I'll floss twice a day) and our mechanics (It's not so much a click as a drum roll). But the point of repeat visits to our shrinks is to allow for the time necessary to figure out what's a lie, what's a misconception, and what the truth (for that day) is. (Gabriel, January 10, 2008)

Dozens of other confessions led Grohol (2008b) to write a follow-up essay about common reasons to lie to your therapist. Contributions from him and from other sources (DeAngeles, 2008; Gediman & Leiberman, 1996; Kelly, 1998) identified several of the most common reasons for deception in therapy sessions.

Some Reasons Why Clients Lie

We have seen how lying is a natural and normal part of daily life, a practice that first begins about age 3 or 4 when we first learn we have choices about what we tell others, each presenting different consequences. Biologist Lewis Thomas once observed that if people stopped lying, the world would end, politicians would be arrested, media would be cancelled, and people would stop talking to one another. Lies, or at least half-truths and other fractions of complete honesty, allow trust to build. In therapy, deception is just another in a series of defenses that clients use to remain in control and to protect themselves.

Many, if not most, clients keep certain things from their therapists in order to present themselves in the best possible light. Whereas previously it was believed that lying or deceiving a therapist would only sabotage the treatment, it would appear as if clients may actually benefit by keeping some things private (Kelly, 1998). People lie to their spouses and partners, their family and friends, especially to coworkers and others in which favorable impressions are critical to continued success. It should come as no surprise that clients also lie to their therapists, a lot.

Fear of Shame and Humiliation

Let's face it: it is hard to talk about secrets, about sex, about mistakes and failures, about shortcomings, about feeling helpless to take care of one's own problems, about almost anything that people bring to sessions. It hurts.

Many clients lie to their therapists to avoid feelings of shame, embarrassment, and what they believe will be critical judgment by their therapists (DeAngelis, 2008). We may think of ourselves as neutral, accepting, and nonjudgmental, and advertise ourselves as such, but that does not mean that people actually believe us. And they aren't far wrong. The reality is that we are sometimes critical and judgmental (at least inside our heads) when clients do or say things that seem stupid, even as we keep the poker face in place, nod our heads, and pretend we do not care one way or the other.

Much of the content of therapy involves talking about things about which people feel most ashamed and embarrassed, and most reluctant to admit. It takes awhile for clients to warm up, to feel safe enough, in order to broach the subjects that are most sensitive. It is during this period in which the therapist is on probation that clients will take any steps necessary to risk greater vulnerability. When we think about it, it is absolutely ridiculous for us to anticipate anything different—that is, to actually expect a new client during the first few weeks to spill his or her guts and come clean with anything and everything that has been previously disguised or hidden. Lying during the initial (and subsequent) stages of therapy is not only normal but highly adaptive and healthy.

Disappointing the Therapist

Whether clients are afraid of disappointing their therapists, or whomever he or she represents as an authority or parental figure, there is often concern (or perception) that the naked truth will result in a loss of respect. One client explains why she lied: "For myself, one of my biggest problems has been worrying that I was letting my therapist or psychiatrist down in some way. I try to hide when I feel depressed, fearing that my mood is somehow going to wreak havoc on others. My therapist is a cognitive behaviorist and I used to fret that she'd think I hadn't been doing my homework. Also, she was so clearly concerned for my well-being that it upset me to come in when I was feeling lousy!" (MacNamarrah, 2008).

It is ironic, but all too often the case, that clients do not talk about what is really bothering them, or even cancel sessions when they need help the most. They believe that others—even someone who is paid to be helpful—cannot really handle their deepest secrets and innermost selves. In addition, therapists are required by law to report suspected (or confessed) cases of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. We are also forced to act when there is a risk of harm to self or others. Then there are other illegal or moral transgressions that may have been committed in the past, or are still currently going on. It behooves such an individual to be less than completely forthcoming with anyone, much less a professional who is mandated to contact authorities.

Ignorance

Some clients, who are relatively unsophisticated about therapy, or about how change takes place, leave out all kinds of important stuff because they did not know it was particularly important. It wasn't exactly that they were lying as much as choosing to ignore, deny, or otherwise gloss over things that did not seem all that important—and besides, they are uncomfortable to mention.

Physicians are able to run all kinds of diagnostic tests—blood work, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), electrocardiograms (EKGs), ultrasound, urine analysis, biopsies, X-rays—because they do not fully trust self-reports as accurate data. We are left with what clients choose to tell us based on their beliefs about what is relevant, awareness of what they know and understand, and willingness to share information selectively. It is no wonder that we are operating with imperfect, flawed, and incomplete data. Even in cases of clear success, how confident do you feel that you really understood what was going on? How certain are you that the results reported were truly accurate? If you answer, unequivocally, that you are very confident, perhaps you should consider your own degree of honesty.

Living Alternative Realities

For those with personality or factitious disorders, lying is a way of life. It has become so habituated that the person actually comes to believe the fantasies that are spun; they become an alternate reality.

When Meghan first contacted me, it was in a letter she had written after discovering one of my books at a garage sale (the first book I ever wrote that she purchased for a dollar). At the time she was a teenager and we struck up a correspondence that lasted for 20 years. Meghan struggled with depression throughout most of her life, had contemplated and attempted suicide many times, never deciding on the best method to end her life.

I'm still not sure what role I played in her life, but I always responded to her letters with support and caring, encouraging her to stay in therapy and continue to work on herself. She ended up reading many of my books over the years and, each time, would send her comments and reactions. Over the years she also told me a lot of things about herself, sent photos, brought me up to date on her family and relationships, and occasionally asked for advice. Even though she was not a client, and I never actually met her, I felt a certain responsibility to be as kind as I could; there was obviously some kind of transference going on and I wanted to be careful.

Eventually I learned that much of what Meghan had told me over the years were lies. I believe the part about her depression and suicidal thoughts, but I discovered that the photos she sent me were of someone else, the stories she told me were fictions, and that she had even sent me e-mails masquerading as other people. It was a bizarre case that I did my best to extricate myself from, although every few years Meghan will contact me again in some other disguised form.

There are other people like Meghan in the world and you have met them, perhaps worked with them. Sometimes you recognize them before you are sucked into their fantasy worlds; other times (most of the time in my experience) you do not realize the level of deception until it is far too late. One of the reasons it is so difficult to detect such mendacity is because the individuals have managed to confuse lies from truth; they cannot seem to tell the difference.

Unlike Jacob, I did have the chance to confront Meghan directly (and repeatedly) about the games she had played over the years. After each instance of discovering a lie, she would first deny it, then apologize profusely and beg for another chance. I gave up trying to negotiate a more honest form of communication with her soon after she sent me a draft of her autobiography, which she claimed would soon be released by a major New York publisher (another lie). It was titled: "I Will Tell You No Secrets and Tell You All Lies."

As with Meghan, some clients are not really lying to "us" but to individuals we represent, whether transference objects or surrogate authority figures. When all is said and done, therapists are never going to be very good at detecting client lies. It is just not part of our constitution, or our training, in which so much of what we learn to do is build trust.

Given the uncertainty and doubt we must accept and live with related to our work, the question remains: How do we work with issues of deception and lies in therapy?

This excerpt from The Assassin and the Therapist: An Exploration of Truth in Psychotherapy and in Life was reprinted with permission from the publisher. For more information and to purchase the book, visit Amazon.com.

Psychotherapy with Medically Ill Patients: Hope in the Trenches

Psychotherapists who work with medically ill clients often feel adrift between two seas. One ocean is the fast-paced world of medicine, in which we, as medical consultants, must efficiently develop complete answers to complex questions. The other ocean involves the deep and dark undertow of emotions: our clients are often dealing with terrifying bodily limitations and unknown outcomes. As therapists, we are called upon to integrate and understand the hypomanic world of medicine, while helping our clients tolerate the unfair and arbitrary aspects of illness and, more ominously, the inevitability of death. Though providing psychotherapy to these clients can at times feel overwhelmingly tragic, it is the solace we are able to offer those beset with illness and death that makes the work so gratifying and meaningful.

As therapists we are privileged to have access to some of the most intimate recesses of the human mind. However, those of us who work with medical patients also have to bear the burden of our clients' concrete suffering. The toll on us is significant: having to tolerate the arbitrariness of illness can either make us cynical and scared, or jolt us into appreciating the finite aspects of life. Working with people beset by medical illness can make us, as therapists and people, able to appreciate life with all its benefits, limitations, joys and disappointments. Working with clients who are medically ill not only requires us to learn more about the seemingly distant and disembodied relational aspects of medicine, but also forces us to confront painful existential realities on a daily basis.

Illness in Psychology and Medicine

When I was not yet 30 years old and had been in private practice only a couple of years, I met Anne*, a pleasant and motivated 70-year-old whom I saw as an outpatient for mild depression. I had known her only briefly, but was very fond of her. Like many elders, Anne had gotten depressed after the death of her husband. Though she had not been in therapy before, she was open to learning how her mood might impact her ability to take care of herself. And like many older clients, she was unsure how talking could help her. But she often noted that after our meetings she felt better, even if she just talked about how she was struggling with getting used to taking care of the finances herself or how much she missed her husband. She also took our appointments very seriously.

One day, Anne uncharacteristically missed an appointment and I had been unable to get in touch with her. The next day, while at a nurse's station in the cardiology unit of the hospital I worked in, I saw her primary care physician, who had referred Anne to me. Upon seeing me, the physician said, “"Oh, Tamara, your patient, the older lady, she died two days ago. She had a heart attack." He then walked away as I stood at the chaotic nurse's station, stunned and tearful.” I had known Anne only a few months, but I had been feeling hopeful about her treatment. Given that she did not have any previous history of heart disease, I couldn't believe that she had died so suddenly.

Anne's death and her physician's manner of disclosure illustrate aspects of medicine that many of us in the field know all too well. The fast-paced, energetic facet of medicine in the U.S. can be characterized as being "hypomanic." Although I am referring loosely to the familiar Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders1 criteria of hypomania, my understanding of the intensely energetic nature of medicine is more akin to the ideas of Melanie Klein and what she called "manic" defenses. Briefly, Klein described manic defenses as when idealization, feelings of being powerful, and hyperactivity are employed to ward off sadness, worries about aggression, and ambivalence2. In other words, manic defenses are used to avoid difficult feelings. And since difficult feelings abound in medicine, energetic defenses offer a perfect antidote to sadness and loss.

Even minimal experience in the medical profession inevitably leads one to appreciate the consequences of a hypomanic culture. Particularly in hospitals, people talk fast, move fast, and think fast. Many healthcare workers are constantly engaged in goal-directed activity. Even in outpatient settings, patients remark that they spend only five to fifteen minutes with their physicians and commonly complain that doctors are pressed for time. This pressure- and speed-driven culture has a rational component: when a patient is critically ill, physicians and medical staff need to move quickly in order to administer urgent care, which could be life saving. Additionally, many physicians, especially those who work in inpatient settings, are chronically sleep-deprived due to the demands of long hours, call schedules, and other professional and personal responsibilities. In the outpatient setting, physicians are often tightly scheduled to see a large number of patients in a limited amount of time.

As medicine has advanced, the kinds of interpersonal connections within the profession have changed as well. Donald Winnicott described the way he noticed interpersonal differences as a result of modern medical practice:

It is a sad result of the advances in modern medicine that there is no personal clash between patient and doctor as whole persons; there is a visit to the doctor, a disease process found, treatment is given, and the disease is cured, but no one has met anyone, no one person has bumped into another person.3

What I experienced in my conversation with Anne's physician after her death seems to be a common symptom of modern medicine as Winnicott described. Medicine demands a great deal from its practitioners, and a hypomanic style in the personalities of medical professionals can be viewed as a kind of acculturation to seemingly endless demands. On the other hand, the perpetually fast pace in medical facilities also reflects a tendency and desire to not engage with patients in an emotional way.

Bodies Breaking Down: Challenges for Therapists

Although physicians often experience the hypomanic trappings of medicine, as therapists we are also subject to these intense pressures. When I worked in medical settings with a large number of clients both as inpatients and in my outpatient practice, I often found myself wishing I could offer something simple and concrete to ease my clients' suffering. But I also wanted to ease my suffering; at times it felt like helping people who were ill was too much to bear. Sitting with someone with a rare autoimmune disease who had a guarded prognosis and uncertain future, helping someone with lung cancer who was overwhelmed with self-blame regarding years of heavy smoking, or trying to soothe a young adult randomly afflicted with heart disease forced me to face the complex reality of health and illness: we can all try to take care of ourselves and do the right things in terms of our health, but the sad truth is there are many variables we cannot control. Even when clients might have endangered their health knowingly or unknowingly (as in the case of older adults with lung cancer, who grew up seeing physician advertisements for cigarettes), they still have to deal with the fact that illness has happened to them and that their body has let them down and they might not live—or, for some, live with limitations they may never have dreamed possible.

I felt more emotionally vulnerable regarding death and serious illness in my clients when I was younger. Especially then, I had a hard time knowing how to manage the feelings that were stirred up in me. This was probably exacerbated by the difficulties with mourning that are present in medicine, as I had little support in a culture in which people simply move on to the next task, even after someone dies.

One way my intense anxiety manifested at the time was that I frequently feared that I would develop the same diseases of those I was treating. Especially when I worked with people who had been subject to random or mysterious illnesses (often those thought not to have links to lifestyle behaviors), I worried that I too, would be subject to the same bad luck. When I was seeing large numbers of patients in the hospital, it often seemed unbelievable to me that anyone could be in good health, and not sick with some terrible disease! Clinicians I have supervised in hospital settings, in which they were working with severely ill people, have echoed similar sentiments. These feelings and anxieties seem especially prevalent in younger clinicians and those who have not experienced illness or death in their personal lives. However, all of us, in working with people with medical illnesses, need to come to terms with the intense anxieties and overstimulation that are associated with treating this population.

Though our feelings and experiences are filtered through our own psychology, there are many common reactions to working in medical settings and with clients who are severely ill. “Intense fear, anxiety, and thoughts and images of our own death are common reactions and not necessarily related to our own psychological problems; what we encounter is simply difficult to bear.” Serious illness and the possibility of death inherently evoke intense and disorganizing emotions in therapists when we are with our very ill clients. Since many people experience considerable shame in confronting these emotions, reinforced by a cultural mandate to move on, therapists need to create an internal and external space for these intense feelings. This involves a lot of interpersonal work, and often requires a lot of our own psychotherapy.

Those of us who work with medical patients suffer vicarious trauma. We don't talk about it much, as we are not so sure that our colleagues won't pathologize us. In fact, I felt quite misunderstood by a therapist I was seeing when I first started working with severely ill clients in a hospital setting. “When I tried to articulate my terror regarding seeing people my own age who were dying, my therapist interpreted these fears as "unrealistic."” My view was, how could my fears be unrealistic? The young people I was seeing had not engaged in risky lifestyle behaviors; they just were victims of bad luck. How was I to know that this could not happen to me?

Therapists who don't work with medically ill clients often remark that those of us who do have a skewed view of the world or that we don't have good boundaries between our clients and ourselves. Regarding the former idea, our colleagues are right. Therapists who specialize in work with medically ill adults primarily see people who have been subjected arbitrarily to illness. I did have a skewed view of the world, especially when I was younger. As I have gotten older, I realize that many medical illnesses are rare and unfortunate, and I feel privileged to have been able to help my clients at a time in their lives in which they needed someone who could tolerate randomness and unfairness of disease and illness, to acknowledge the potential of death, and most importantly to help them know they are not to blame. Indeed, many people feel that random illness must be caused by something they have done. Feeling that they have caused the illness is a way to believe that they can stop it. Sadly, this is not true. But the idea that we can predict and know of our potential to cause (and cure) our own illnesses is seductive.

A younger colleague, who works with people who have rare lung cancer, said to me recently, "When I cough, I think I have lung cancer." When she said this, I was reminded of the claims launched at me over the years by well-meaning colleagues: that my work was reducing me to a state of lowered boundaries, and that it was crazy to think I might be in the same boat as my clients. And though on one level I can understand these criticisms, on the other it feels so profoundly misplaced and misunderstood. As I said to my younger colleague, "Of course you feel this way. There is no way to work with such an unfairly beleaguered population and not feel scared about what this can mean for you. Bad things just happen."

Psychology, and especially psychoanalytic psychology, can be funny in that “we as therapists are "allowed" (especially in training) to indulge in whatever ideas and fantasies we might have about our own psychological problems, but we immediately pathologize whoever is talking if they have worries about their own bodily health”—they must be too "concrete," they must have some difficult psychological problem that allows them to somatacize. The reality, however, is the opposite of what people often perceive. When we work with medically ill people and are confronted with the random nature of illness and the cruel distribution of severe illness, it is natural that as therapists we would imagine ourselves in the same situation. After all, what else can be described as the true seed of empathy? And in my experience and those of students I know, it is this kind of empathy, "What would it mean if this were happening to me?" that is the most profound and ideal empathy we need to have inside of us to help our clients manage the painful and difficult aspects of illness they are confronted with.

The Difficulty of Engaging Clients

A few years ago I was teaching a class on psychodynamic perspectives of medical illness and mentioned a common phenomenon: many cancer patients who engage in therapy do so when they are in the active stages of their medical treatment (e.g., chemotherapy or radiation); once these stages are completed, many of them leave therapy. The therapists in the class who had worked with people with cancer laughed and seemed relieved to know that this is a common experience and not necessarily based on the therapist's individual psychotherapeutic style or practice.

While it is true that many people with medical illness (not just those who have cancer) present for psychological treatment in the more acute phases of illness and then leave when illness becomes chronic, is in remission, or in the best of circumstances, is cured, it raises the question of why this happens and how it affects the psychological health of people we try to help. One possibility is that those who are acutely ill and undergoing intensive kinds of treatment need acute and intensive psychological support, and once that phase of medical treatment is finished, they may feel that less intensive psychological treatment is needed. Although this rationale may appear to make sense, I have been surprised over the years at the number of people who have left psychotherapy after the acute phases of medical treatment, as some of these clients clearly had issues that would have benefited from longer-term psychotherapy. And even though it is true that some people, particularly those who have had psychotherapy in the past, might be inclined to continue with therapy after the acute phases of treatment, how are we to understand those who do not? And are there things we can do to increase the chance of engaging some of these people in a more meaningful and helpful therapeutic relationship?

People with medical illnesses are hesitant to engage in longer-term treatment with mental health clinicians for a number of reasons. As described, the culture of medicine and modern healthcare reflects a hypomanic culture in which "cures" are provided in a quick and often rushed manner. The practice of psychology within medicine, though valuable, offers a culturally inconsistent approach for people with severe medical illnesses. Even with the approaches often advocated within health psychology and medical care (specifically cognitive-behavioral approaches), the integration of psychology in medicine remains largely difficult.

Integration of psychological approaches and applications in healthcare has improved dramatically over recent years, yet psychological services are largely viewed as an elective treatment within the medical system. To some extent this makes sense. From a practical standpoint, many people undergoing medical care are overwhelmed with medical appointments, as well as the financial expenses involved in receiving care for an illness. Time and money spent on psychotherapy may not seem to be a priority. Physicians may not consider referrals to mental health professionals for those patients who seem to be coping well, even though therapy could be of great benefit.

However, even for people who have financial resources and time for it, therapy is often construed as not only elective, but also a burden. Psychotherapy requires a tremendous amount of resources, both internal and external. “People with severe illnesses are often taxed with the impact of bodily changes and decline, physical pain, and fear of death: surviving from day to day involves tremendous physical energy, and as a result, psychological energy that might be employed to address emotional issues is reduced.”

This relates to the idea that medical patients often present as being more psychologically "concrete." The term concrete has been associated with thinking in patients who are more severely disturbed, such as those who are psychotic or those with personality disorders. However, this way of viewing concrete thinking is very limited—and in itself concrete! A more modern perspective is that, especially under times of stress, we all can regress to a more concrete way of operating, and this is often the case with severe physical illness. In such states, we feel more sensitive to intrusions, more focused on pragmatic aspects of functioning, with less emotional space for reflection.

Trauma researchers have long known that traumatic events make it difficult for people to think in a symbolic way4. The burden is on us, as therapists, then, to help make space for symbolic thought, as opposed to demanding that our clients do so for us.

What Seems Concrete Is

Sara* was a 30-year-old doctorate-level professional when I met her. After a routine doctor visit, her physician had told her that she could not go back to work that day, but needed to be hospitalized immediately for dangerously low blood cell counts. She was diagnosed with leukemia. I met her a few days later in the hospital; she was referred for what her nurses described as almost nonstop crying and excessive controlling behaviors, such as continually asking the nurses to verify the accuracy of her medications, even when they had already told her what they were giving her and confirmed that the dosages were correct.

When I met with Sara, she was guarded and extremely anxious. Although she felt that she wanted help by talking with me, she appeared in genuine shock (as would be expected) but also panicked. When I suggested that she might feel overwhelmingly anxious, and that perhaps she even thought that the feelings she was having would cause her to die immediately, she agreed. She said that at times she felt that she could just "die right there," even though she knew she was getting treated for her disease. The panicked feelings made it difficult for Sara to cope in the hospital. Staff became increasingly concerned because she often asked for higher levels of anxiolytics and pain medications, presumably to manage her anxiety. Sara acknowledged that she just wanted to feel "numb." Although I had suggested an antidepressant, which might provide longer-term and more consistent relief from her symptoms, she refused, objecting that she did not want to feel "controlled" through medication.

As for my role while she was in the hospital, Sara was able to talk to some extent about her anxiety. However, discussions tended to focus on aspects of her life that needed to be managed and taken care of, such as who was paying her bills, what was happening in a recent financial transaction, and how others were managing her projects at work. And although I willingly discussed these topics with her, I felt as if there was little I could do to help ease her tremendous anxiety.

Sara's situation illustrates that when someone is overwhelmingly terrified in response to a serious and life-threatening illness, his or her ability to think about meaning is reduced. Sara's panicked state and her constant checking on the nurses prevented her from slowing down long enough to realize that she was not going to die immediately. They also prevented her from thinking about what she could do to help herself in her situation. She felt that her life was already over, even though she had a long road of treatment ahead of her. Feelings of hopelessness in medically ill clients are common and can be detected by a feeling of helplessness in the therapist, which I felt acutely while I was with her.

Sara attempted to manage her anxiety by becoming more watchful of her environment, including frequently checking that the nurses would not make any mistakes. Not only was Sara terrified and attempting to manage her terror, but I understood that underneath her need to be more in control of her environment was a sense of profound confusion regarding what was happening to her. Attempts at control were a way to reduce the confusion she felt. In her conversations with me, Sara felt the need to go over events in her life that she could not currently control as a way to try to maintain control. She was stuck in this way of thinking and needed me to give ample attention to these external events.

Talking about the more real issue of what she could not control (her body) was not possible, as it made her unbearably anxious and confused. Sara had been caught completely off guard by this diagnosis. As a relatively young woman, she'd had little experience with major illnesses or death. She had no risk factors for malignancies, something she eventually told me she often thought about. Not knowing why or how this had happened to her was a tremendous source of distress. The level of her confusion was so intense that at times she felt as if it would overwhelm her. This is one meaning of panic attacks that sometimes occur in people with medical problems; “anxiety, confusion, and feeling out of control become so powerful that people sometimes feel as if they will die then and there.” It is as if the idea, "Well, I might as well just die now," takes over. The price of such a way of thinking, however, is that Sara and others like her forget that they are still alive, and can maximize coping resources to fight their illness.

Although it is understandable that many people experiencing a life-threatening illness would be terrified, the kind of terror I am describing is the kind where one cannot find refuge in a logical reminder that they are not dying at that moment or that others are helping to keep them alive (meaning, in these cases, medical treatment). This is because the disorienting feelings in reaction to a traumatic illness can become overpowering. Sara could not find solace in the fact that she was being treated for a disease. Sara was so tortured by her anxiety that she feared others, even though these others were desperately trying to help her. She became wary and guarded.

Though I knew that the nurses and doctors caring for her at the time were extremely sympathetic, Sara could not absorb sympathy. Her fears had rendered her helpless, feeling paralyzed and tortured. In this state, no one can really be trusted. Additionally, in this state of mind, the act of thinking as well as having ideas, of any kind, can feel like torture. In other words, the process of thinking as we understand it can feel persecuting, because in a situation in which the body has failed, it is hard to know who to trust. Sometimes in such scenarios, people are even hesitant to access their own thoughts, as thoughts themselves (being present in one's mind) can feel equally as terrifying and persecuting.

This kind of state presents a unique problem to us as therapists, in that the people we may want to help the most are intensely (and often unconsciously) unable to take in what we have to offer. “Their terror becomes our cross to bear. In other words, the intense and barely known emotions become something we have to share and know in order to help. With Sara, I had to tolerate feeling helpless, enraged, outraged, and terrified about what was happening to her.” At the time I knew her in the hospital, she could barely acknowledge these feelings in herself. So I absorbed them and hoped for the best for her, and hoped as well that at some point she could feel her own emotional turmoil.

Sara did well with her medical treatment in the hospital, but was never able to follow up for therapy as an outpatient. And because of that, I can never quite be sure whether my work was helpful to her or not. Such is the case when working with people who are seriously ill. I do not know how Sara fared, or even whether she is still alive. This is another difficult fact of working with severely ill clients, especially in hospital work. As mental health clinicians, we are often not privy to the medical outcomes of those whose lives we become invested in. Clients struggling with illness can't necessarily follow-up in longer-term psychotherapy, for both physical and psychological reasons. As helpers in the world of medicine, we often have to tolerate not knowing whether our clients live or die.

Psychological Ramifications of Cancer Diagnoses

Most of us who are born without chronic illnesses take the functioning of our bodies for granted. When the body stops working in adulthood, this jars one's sense of self. And if the inside of the body does not work, it is very hard to know how and what to trust on the outside. Many cancer patients talk about the eerie feeling that cancer cells have been growing in their bodies without them knowing it. This may be related to both ideas and fears of cancer in our culture. Although heart disease is the number-one cause of death in industrialized countries, many people verbalize not a fear of heart disease, but of cancer.

This is most likely because the imagery associated with cancer, in which bad cells insidiously destroy good cells, resonates with the fear of the internal workings of the body being attacked by itself. This idea has roots in early developmental theories of childhood. Aggression is something we all struggle with as younger beings. Dependency, a sense of not being in control, and anger about that fact that we need to rely on others are facets of young childhood. When things go right in childhood, we can emerge relatively unscathed and able to tolerate our own (and others') limitations and need for dependency.

But when things don't go right, or when parents are preoccupied, we then struggle to tolerate the fact that at times we will need others. The sense that the body is attacking itself is common among clients with medical problems. When this feeling is excessive or pervasive, it can sometimes be a sign that, as children, these clients were often left alone to deal with angry feelings. These feelings can and do often come back to us as adults, especially when dealing with something amiss in the body that we cannot understand. “A sense that the body can attack itself feels like our own toxic anger is turning inward in ourselves, and results in disorientation and mistrust of people in the "outside" world. For some, this results in confusion, collapse, and a feeling that nothing can be trusted either internally or externally.”

Sara tried to remedy these disorganized, helpless, and out-of-control feelings by managing the nurses' behaviors with an attempt to control, in a literal way, what was being put into her body. Such patients need to be able to feel that they can control what we, as mental health clinicians, "put into" them as well.

In these situations, we need to tolerate the fact that due to a patient's suspicions and sense of terror, it may feel at times that we have little to offer. However, just being able to engage with patients like Sara goes a long way. It means a lot to listen and tolerate unbearable feelings when no one else can. People caught up in medical crises often cannot turn to their physicians, as their work requires a kind of detachment. Family members are often so scared themselves that they often tell me they can't bear to hear my clients utter anything other than positive statements. Thus, our clients need us to bear the confusion, terror and disorganization to which they are subjected.

Hope In The Trenches: The Meaning of Our Work

Janet*, a client of mine, died recently after a long battle with cancer. When I saw her for the last time, she told me she was scared of death, but relieved to have an end to her suffering. She grabbed my hand and said, "I can do this now. Thanks for helping me to know that I can let go." Our work together lasted less than a year.

I met Janet in the context of several medical problems while she lived in a skilled nursing facility, but in the process of our working together, she was diagnosed with recurrent cancer. Although she had been told that her cancer had not been cured, and that she would eventually die from the disease, she had convinced herself that her prognosis was otherwise. When she was told that her cancer was not only back, but raging with virulent intensity, I gently suggested that her lifespan was shorter than she had previously thought, and that she might want to say goodbye to those who were important to her. In the context of our relatively close therapeutic relationship, she could hear this, and no longer needed to be in denial about what would be her fate. She was able to say goodbye to those she loved, and was even able to say she was sorry to people she perceived she had hurt.

I could not continue to work with people who were enduring this kind of suffering unless it felt like there was some help I was able to provide, and it appeared that I had helped Janet to relinquish the denial she had so desperately clung to, and had eased her feeling that she was dying alone. These moments remind me of why I got into the practice of working with medical clients to begin with. And more importantly, when I come home every night to my husband, I am so grateful for what we have, now.

*Client names have been changed to protect confidentiality.

Excerpts from this article are taken (with permission) from Psychodynamic Perspectives on Aging and Illness, Springer, 2009. The paperback version of this book was released in June, 2010.

References

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th ed.; DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994.
Klein M. (1940). Mourning and its relation to manic-depressive states. International Journal of Psychoanalysis, 21,125-153.
Winnicott, D.W. (1966). On cardiac neurosis in children. In R. Shepard, J. Johns, & H.T. Robinson (Eds.), Thinking about children. New York: Addison Wesley
van der Kolk, B.A., Hostetler, A., Herron, N., & Fisler, R.E. (1994). Trauma and the development of borderline personality disorder. Psychiatry Clinics of North America, 17, (4), 715-730.

Michael Yapko on Psychotherapy and Hypnosis for Depression

Understanding Depression

Rafal Mietkiewicz: Welcome, Dr. Yapko. I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk with you today. Let’t start off with the question of how do you understand depression? Where does depression come from?
Michael Yapko: Depression comes from many different places. There isn't a single cause for it; there are many contributing factors. And in a general way, the factors are grouped into three areas. There are biological factors that contribute: genetic contributions, biochemical contributions. There are psychological factors: your individual temperament, your coping style, your attributional style, your personal history, all those kinds of things and more. And then there's the social realm: the social factors that contribute to depression, the quality of your relationships, the culture in which you live. Those are all three contributive domains. Consequently, the predominant model in the field is called the bio-psycho-social model and simply acknowledges that there are many, many different factors that contribute. And it's because depression is a complex phenomenon, and the fact that there are so many different factors. When I started studying depression 30 years ago, we knew of only two risk factors—one was gender and the other was family history. Now we know there are dozens and dozens and dozens of risk factors, factors that increase your vulnerability to depression. And so we've learned a lot over the last 30 years.

RM: What is the role of childhood, including the first experiences of the child, along with family history?
MY: Childhood obviously is a time when socialization forces are the most intense. And so the quality of your attachments, the modeling that you learn from your family about how to cope with stress and adversity, the way that you are taught as a child to explain the meaning of life events are all factors that can make you quite vulnerable to depression. And so the childhood is important, but I think one of the things that we've learned quite well is that depression isn't about events that happen in people's lives. It's more about ongoing processes of how the person uses information, how the person forms relationships, how the person interprets the meaning of things that happen to them.
RM: Isn’t the way in which a person formulates interpretations determined by his own phenomenology, his own life history?
MY: It's partly determined by that, but socialization goes on your entire life. It doesn't stop when you're five years old; it doesn't stop when you're eight years old.
RM: Some people could say that these are the most crucial years, and that making any changes later is very hard.
MY: People could say that.
RM: Do you agree?
MY: Not entirely. If you look at the fact that some of the most successful therapies for depression never examine childhood, that should tell you something. You look at the three therapies that have the highest treatment success rate—cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, interpersonal therapy—and right behind it, behavioral activation—none of those treatments focus on childhood.
RM: So, you’re saying you can cure people from depression without taking care of events that happened long ago in the past, without dealing with the big traumas?
MY: Clearly. It's not an opinion—look at the research. In fact, cognitive-behavioral therapy is the most widely researched treatment there is. And this is an approach that has no interest in the past. Now, people will come in and they will naturally talk about the past—"Here's what happened to me when I was eight years old." But a cognitive therapist is not going to sit around and talk about that in great detail, but rather will ask, "So what does that lead you to think, and how does it lead you to behave, and how can we change what you think and how can we change how you behave?" And guess what? It has the best treatment success. And when you look at the analytic approach, it comes in almost at the bottom of treatment success studies—for a reason. See, the problem is, it's a treatment model that you use with everybody, as if everybody's the same, as if everybody has the same pathway into depression. But in fact each person has their own individual pathway into depression. For one person, it's about failed relationships. For another person, it's about trauma as a child. For another person, it's about the surgery they just had and all the drugs they're on. And for somebody else, it's about the hormonal imbalance, and for somebody else it's because their diet is so terrible and they never exercise. There's no blueprint. The model of depression that came out of the analytic world was that depression was anger turned inwards.
RM: Yes…
MY: That was disproved 30 years ago.
RM: However, it’s still considered as something important and valid for many people…
MY: Well, that's wrong. You know, I rarely make a statement that's that flat. Usually there's an element of truth in something, and maybe the truth gets exaggerated, but the idea of depression as anger turned inwards has been disproved. It's an old, outdated concept that doesn't work in the face of modern research. And consider the fact, how many people get out of depression and stay out of depression without addressing anger and without addressing trauma and without addressing childhood. It's always interesting to me that when somebody says, "Well, I think exploring your past is vitally important." Okay. You think it's vitally important. That doesn't mean it is. You want to believe that? You can believe that. You're allowed. You can think whatever you want. But if we go into the realm of research and we compare different treatments and which ones have higher treatment success rates and which ones have lower treatment success rates, such as psychoanalysis—I don't mean to bash psychoanalysis in a global way—but if we ask the question, "Are there some treatments for depression that work better than others?" the answer is yes. It's not as if all treatments are the same. And when we look at which treatments are better, they're the ones that teach people specific skills, whether it's skills in how to use information, how to make decisions intelligently, how to form relationships in a way that's healthy, how to manage yourself and be self-efficacious, and learning skills of emotional self-regulation. And if you look at things that go on in analysis, they actually work against people getting better in two very specific ways. Part of the problem with people who suffer depression is they make meaning out of events and their style of making-meaning hurts them. So to give you a simple example, I call you. You're not home. I leave a message for you. I say, "Call me back."
RM: And I don’t.
MY: And you don't call me back. Now, if I'm a depressed person, how do I interpret that?
RM: Probably like “I’m not worthy…”
MY: "I'm not worthy, you don't like me."
RM: Yes…
MY: "You don't think I'm important. What's wrong with me? How come nobody ever likes me?" It's facing an uncertain or ambiguous situation and projecting negative meanings into it. Analysis is filled with making negative interpretations, negative projections in the face of uncertainty. "What does this dream mean? What does this symbol mean? What does this image mean?" And so much of what happens in analysis is teaching a person to make interpretations that are the same as the analyst. That doesn't help the person learn how to think and use information more critically. And then the second thing that happens in analysis, when we look at coping styles there's a particular style of coping called rumination: spinning things around and analyzing them and analyzing them and analyzing them, at the expense of taking effective action. And when you look at the people who ruminate, they have higher levels of anxious symptoms, more severe depressive symptoms. Ruminating, analyzing, works against getting better. Action is what helps people get better. And when you look again at the therapies that have the highest treatment success rates, it's not a coincidence that every single one of them gives homework. Every single one of them gives tasks to do in between sessions. Every single one of them emphasizes teaching specific skills, whether it's relationship skills, thinking skills, behavioral skills—but the emphasis is on movement, not analysis. That's why people in the other domains call it the analysis paralysis: instead of encouraging people to take effective action, instead, they spend more time thinking and analyzing and miss opportunities to do things that would help themselves.

Nobody Wants to be Depressed

RM: It sounds refreshing and optimistic, but I’m just wondering, if patients are willing to change their behaviors, learn new skills right away, are they ready for it– especially, when we consider secondary benefits from depression.
MY: Who said there are secondary benefits? You said that. I didn't say that. I don't believe that.
RM: You don’t believe the idea of secondary benefits from depression is true?
MY: No.
RM: Why not?
MY: Everything you experience has consequences. Everything. Going to a conference for five days has consequences. It means you're away from your family. Does that mean you want to be away from your family? You make choices. But to suggest that the consequences drive the pattern to me is so offensive because it blames the depressed person. Depressed people don't want to be depressed. What makes it look like secondary gain or secondary benefit is when you see depressed people who don't lift a finger to help themselves, the easiest conclusion is they must not want to change. They must be getting benefits from being depressed. And that is a fundamental misunderstanding that I wish people would let go of already. Nobody wants to be depressed. But the basis of depression is helplessness, hopelessness. Most depressed people don't go for help not because they want to be depressed, but because they don't think help will make a difference. Why would I go see a therapist if I believe that it's never going to help me? That's why depression has so few people who seek treatment. Only about 20 to 25 percent of depression sufferers seek help because they don't believe it's going to make a difference.
RM: So it sounds like you don’t really believe in the unconscious?
MY: You're going off in an entirely different direction now. Of course there are unconscious processes.
RM: I am not blaming a person for being depressed, or saying that it is the choice a person makes; however, there are many benefits of being depressed I could think of…
MY: But by saying it that way, you're suggesting that there is a motivation to stay depressed.
RM: Unconscious ones…
MY: And I'm suggesting that is incorrect. It's damaging. It's unfair to the patient. And it delays getting effective treatment. It's not a useful concept. And again, when you look at the therapies that work, none of them explore that domain because it is theoretically interesting but it isn't really what the nature of depression is about. And it's one of the things that every analyst needs to do, is be able to distinguish between their interest in a particular theory versus what the client's actual experience is. Instead of fitting the patient to the theory, how about if we learn something about how this person generates depression? It's a very different question—how does this person generate depression, instead of why. As soon as you ask why, you're now inviting theorizing.
RM: That is true to some extent.
MY: And what I'm interested in is, "Here's how this person does this. How can I interrupt that sequence so that instead of going from here to here to here to depression, can I introduce some new possibilities that move them in a new direction?"
RM: I see.
MY: That's the problem with when people make theories and then they actually believe themselves.
RM: What you are telling us is that you’re very concentrated on the individual, rather than generalized theories.
MY: Every person's different. And that's the point–
you have to generate a new theory for each person, instead of fitting the person to some preexisting idea.
you have to generate a new theory for each person, instead of fitting the person to some preexisting idea. And that's the problem with any approach that adapts the person to the theory instead of the reverse. And that's the danger for any model. You know, I wouldn't want a cognitive therapist to only read cognitive literature. I wouldn't want a behavioral therapist to only read behavior literature.
RM: The more you know the better for the patient?
MY: Yeah, when I said there are so many factors that have been proven to contribute to depression, it means that each practitioner needs to know something about genetics, needs to know something about epigenetics, needs to know something about biochemistry, needs to know something about social depression and the cultural contributions to depression, needs to know something about cognition, needs to know something about diet and exercise. You know, exercise has a treatment success rate that matches antidepressant medications and has a lower relapse rate. Now, that without ever saying a word to somebody. Doesn't that complicate the picture a little bit when you ask, "Well, how does somebody get better exercising if they never deal with their unconscious and they never deal with their traumas?" That's an important question.
RM: Good point!
MY: And that's where you would hope the people reading this would be curious enough to ask, "What is it that cognitive therapists have learned that have made the treatment so successful without doing any of the things that the people who are loyal to analysis think you should do?" And then, of course, part of the model is to dismiss it as superficial. "Well, that's not really therapy if they're only seeing people for six sessions." Well, you can take that position. It's a very arrogant position to take to say that you know what the right way is, other people are doing it the wrong way, when the other people actually have the data to show that it works better and lasts longer and prevents more episodes than any other approach.

Diagnosing and Treating Depression

RM: How long does it actually take you to cure someone from depression?
MY: When you look at the literature, you look at the science of what the studies have shown us, they're usually around 12 to 16 sessions.
RM: And these sessions are structured?
MY: They're structured and they're educational. There's a lot of teaching—what's called psychoeducation—that goes into the process of teaching people how to think and how to use information, how to think clearly. And the same is true with interpersonal approaches. Interpersonal psychotherapy has a treatment success rate that is even slightly higher than cognitive-behavioral. And it teaches relationship skills, social skills. And when you think about the skills that go into good relationships, and we've known for half a century that people who are in good relationships have lower ratings of depression. Why? And what are those skills that go into good relationships? And what about now, when we're seeing depression on the rise and relationships on the decline? So it's such a complicated picture, but spending more time thinking of depression as only in the person, only in the person's unconscious, misses that there are big cultural differences. There are big differences within demographic groups within one culture. And when you look, then, at how do families increase or decrease vulnerability to depression; how do marriages increase or decrease vulnerability; why is the child of a depressed parent so much more likely to suffer depression than a child of a non-depressed parent now that we know that the main reason is not genetic?
RM: Could you give some hints for beginning therapists on how to recognize a depressed client? It is pretty easy with major depression, but how to recognize the signs of it in ongoing therapy with a client who is experiencing moderate depression or dysthymia? And the second question is about masked depression: do you believe it exists and, if so, how do you recognize it?
MY: It's so interesting how your questions all contain the analytic viewpoint.
RM: Really?
MY: Where it's really hard for you to get outside that long enough to even ask the questions differently. But let's take the first…
RM: I wasn’t aware of this. Maybe that was my unconscious…
MY: Well, "masked depression"—nobody uses that phrase anymore.
RM: I’m sure I’ve heard it many times in Europe, where I live and practice.
MY: I understand, I understand. Well, there are people in New York who would probably use the same language—New York being one of the main centers where analysis is still practiced in the United States.

The first question was, "How do you recognize depression?" Depression takes many different forms, so there are many different ways to answer this. If you look at the DSM IV, which is our diagnostic system, there are 227 different symptom combinations that could all yield a correct diagnosis of depression. So depression is a soft diagnosis. It's not an easy diagnosis to make because of all these different combinations.. The United States government has been pushing physicians for almost 10 years now to recognize depression more frequently. When I said earlier that only 20 to 25 percent of depression sufferers seek help from a mental health professional, more than 90 percent of them have seen a physician within the last year, presented the symptoms of depression, and many physicians miss it. So the government's been asking physicians to just ask two questions. One question is about mood; "Have you been feeling down, sad, blue, or depressed for the last month or more?" And the second question is about anhedonia, or the loss of pleasure; "Have you lost interest in the things that usually interest you, or have you stopped deriving pleasure from the things that normally give you pleasure?" Now, if somebody says yes to one or both of those questions, it doesn't automatically mean they're depressed, but it leads you to take a closer look.

Sleep disturbance is the single most common symptom of depression, and the most common form of insomnia is early morning awakening, what's called terminal insomnia because it interrupts the terminal phase of sleep. But there are other symptoms as well. People who are depressed are most often suffering a coexisting condition. Anxiety disorder is the most common coexisting condition, but there are others including substance abuse problems—alcohol especially—medical problems, and personality disorders. So that complicates the diagnosis. But when you're talking with somebody who is feeling hopeless and helpless—the two biggest characteristics of depression—it leads you to look more closely.

Now, the second question was about so-called "masked depression." And the reality is that moods fluctuate. Depressed people aren't in the same level of depression every hour of every day. Typically there fluctuations, times when they feel a little worse—early morning, for example—times when they feel a little better, times when today they're feeling optimistic, and tomorrow they feel rotten again. Today they can barely get out of bed; yesterday they had a good day. So what is a masked depression? The assumption is that the depression is being hidden by some other symptom or some other behavioral pattern. And a good diagnostician, someone who understands what depression looks like in all of its different forms, would simply say instead of "masked depression" that this person has a comorbid condition. They have another coexisting issue, whether it's an anxiety disorder or alcohol abuse or something like that.
RM: It’s obvious for me right now that you don’t deal with the matter of transference and countertransference, but let me ask you about the role of the relationship between you and the patient.
MY: There are over 400 different forms of psychotherapy, and every single one of them emphasizes the importance of the relationship. If you don't have the connection with the person, then how do you attain the level of influence that it takes to teach them new skills, to motivate them to follow homework assignments, to share your sense of optimism that their life can be different if they do some things different and learn some things differently and approach some things differently? So for me, and I think any therapist would say this, the relationship is critically important.

Learning from People’s Strengths

RM: Let’s move to the area of core techniques. You write about so many different techniques that are useful with working with depressed persons. I’m wondering what are your favorite techniques.
MY: Well, my favorite technique is the one that works.
RM: You’re not attached to techniques.
MY: For me, what defines the work that I do is I respond to these questions. First question: "What is the goal? What does this person want?" And secondly, "What are the resources they're going to need to do it? What specific skills will this person need in order to be able to do this?" You know, I think one of my unique contributions to the field has been in asking how people do things well. Studying how somebody becomes depressed, asking the question, "Why does somebody become depressed?" Okay, that's interesting….
RM: But it’s half-baked?
MY: Yes. What I'm really interested in is people who have faced adversity and didn't become depressed. Why didn't they become depressed ? What's different about the way they think about it? How do they cope differently? For somebody who had a difficult family life or had traumas as a child but didn't become depressed, why not? And you can do one of two things. If you are prone to pathologizing people, then you would say, "Oh, they're in denial and they have great defense mechanisms." And if you're more focused on the strengths of people the way I am, then you say, "Okay, how do I understand these strengths so that I can teach the same strengths to other people?"
I'm focused on what's right with people rather than what's wrong.
I'm focused on what's right with people rather than what's wrong.

So when I encounter somebody who's been through a terrible set of experiences and they're strong and they're motivated and they're positive and they're happy, I don't look at that as a defense. I look at that as health. I want to know how they did that so I can teach it to somebody else. So that's where the techniques that I've developed come from: studying people who cope well in the face of adversity, the people who manage intense stress well, who have lost people and then managed to love again instead of saying, "I'll never love again." The people who fall down and get back up again. And I think there's much, much, much more to learn from them than there is from analyzing people and talking everyday about how bad they feel and how crummy their childhood was. What a waste of time! It's like putting 10 people together in a group who all have airplane phobias. Now you have the blind leading the blind. You're not going to learn anything about how to get on an airplane comfortably by sitting in a room with nine other people who have the same fear you do.
RM: From your point of view the most they could do is just share similar experiences?
MY: There's so much that goes on in the name of therapy that's simply silly. So my focus is, "Okay, here's somebody who has a particular skill that helps them. This person could learn that skill and benefit from it." The techniques that I put in the books are about, "How have I found ways to teach somebody that skill?" Life is filled with uncertainties. The example that I used earlier: I call you, you didn't call me back–it's unclear why you didn't call me back. It is a skill to prevent myself from interpreting it negatively and saying, "He must not like me," because then I'll feel rejected and I'll feel hurt. But for all I know, you had an emergency, and simply forgot to call me back, or somebody else took the message off the answering machine and never gave it to you. But for me to interpret that it's evidence that you don't like me is a big jump, and one of the most important skills you can learn in life is to be able to recognize and tolerate uncertainty.
RM: Changing thinking and the way we make attributions will also affect our feelings or emotions?
MY: That's certainly a big part of it. Well, think about it. You apply for a job. You don't get the job. What does it mean? Well, if you're sensitive about your age, you'll say, "Well, it's because of my age." and if you're sensitive about your gender, you'll say, "Well, it's because of my gender." But you don't know that. You're never going to know that they hired the boss's nephew. You're never going to know that. So to form these explanations that hurt you is what depressed people do very, very well. So one of the skills is knowing when to analyze something and when not to. To be able to make a distinction, what question is answerable and what question can I ask that no amount of research is ever going to generate an answer to? When this woman is depressed because her two-year-old son died from leukemia, and she says, "Why did this happen?" Is there any answer you can give her that's going to make her feel okay?
RM: I guess not.
MY: What can you say? It's a tragedy. And the last thing that you want to do is say, "It happened because you had a drink when you were four months pregnant." We don't know that. Now, can she still find meaning in it that helps her? Can she say, "I want to start a support group for other mothers who have lost young children"? That would be a great thing to do. But it's different than asking, "Why did this happen to me?" It's a very different question than "What can I do about this that will enhance my life?"

Using Metaphors and Hypnosis in Therapy

RM: Let’s talk a while about metaphors.
MY: Okay.
RM: Do you like using metaphors? Do they just pop right into your head or is it hard work to make a metaphor?
MY: I wouldn't say it's hard work. The metaphors are all around us all the time. But let me back up a second. I like the use of metaphor, but not for everybody. And again, techniques don't have any value by themselves. What gives them value is the client. It's not the technique that works. It's the relationship between the technique and the person. No technique is worth anything if the relationship doesn't support it. There are people who will listen to the story and they'll be entertained by it; they'll find it interesting, but they won't learn anything from it.
There are some people who don't value deep thought; they're much more interested in who's going to win the big game this week.
There are some people who don't value deep thought; they're much more interested in who's going to win the big game this week. And then there are other people who listen to the story and they see a deeper meaning in it. What drives metaphor, what makes metaphor valuable, is when you have somebody who engages in what's called a search for relevance. They're willing to actively engage with the metaphor and ask themselves, "How does this apply to me? What can I learn from this? What can I learn from this other person's experience or from this situation?" But not everybody does that. There are some people that the metaphor goes in one ear and out the other, and they just don't think about it.

But the point about the use of metaphor—it has become so basic in the practice of hypnosis to be able to absorb people in a story and encourage multiple-level processing. The conscious understanding, and then stimulating the unconscious processes of the person to build new understandings, build new associations. I'm obviously a big fan of hypnosis. Many of my books are about hypnosis. And hypnosis is such an extraordinarily powerful context for teaching people things and helping people get focused on and absorbed in new ideas and new possibilities. And it helps to understand that hypnosis cures nothing. It's what happens during hypnosis that has the potential to be therapeutic—the new understandings the person develops, the new associations they form in their mind, the new perspectives that evolve for this person as they go through the hypnotic experience. So the hypnosis itself, where metaphor is most commonly used, simply provides a context in which this person can learn things in a much more concentrated way.
RM: You said during your lecture that the viewpoint that hypnosis cannot be used with psychotic patients is wrong…
MY: Somebody asked me that question. My answer was, "Of course it can."
RM: Yes. How so?
MY: There's a distinction that I make between formal hypnosis and informal hypnosis. Formal hypnosis, where you identify this procedure as hypnosis—"Now we're going to do hypnosis. Sit back, close your eyes, focus." But you don't need the announcement for hypnosis to occur. Every time you immerse someone in memory, you're doing age regression. Every time you say to somebody, "I want you to stay focused right here, right now, as you remember," you're doing dissociation. Every time that you focus someone on their feelings, you're focusing them. Every time that you offer interpretation, you're giving a suggestion. And the use of suggestion and how to use suggestion skillfully is what the study of hypnosis is about. But there's no form of treatment—especially analysis, which is a highly suggestive approach—where you're not using suggestions routinely. So the question is how much deliberate focus you create.

I worked in an acute care psychiatric hospital for three years, working with very psychotic patients, very chronic patients. Now with some of them, they could focus long enough, five minutes, ten minutes to actually, "Sit back, close your eyes, let's do an exercise here." And then there are others where it was just being very deliberate about getting their attention for a moment to say something in a way that would focus them and introduce another possibility. Now, that's not formal hypnosis, but it's using the same patterns, the same principles of hypnosis. And so that's what I was talking about.
RM: It seems like everyone can benefit from this form of treatment, this approach.
MY: Yes. What I'm really saying is, I don't know how to separate psychotherapy from hypnosis. They're so merged together because, you know, if you give me a transcript of one of your analytic sessions, I promise you I can highlight suggestion after suggestion and tell you what kind of response that suggestion was trying to create.
RM: So every psychotherapy is partly hypnosis.
MY: Involves suggestion, yes. And what hypnosis involves is the focused use of suggestion. For example, the most empirically supported application of hypnosis is in the realm of behavioral medicine, using hypnosis for pain management. Now, the idea that you can do hypnosis to create anesthesia with someone through language, and this person can now go into an operating room, have their body cut open, and have surgery—that's remarkable. But that's what I do, and that's what many people who practice hypnosis do. Here in the United States, I don't think there's a behavioral medicine program in the country that doesn't have people doing hypnosis, because it is so effective in helping people manage pain with reduced or no medication, to prepare people for surgery so they have better and faster recoveries, and fewer postsurgical complications.

And hypnosis now is such an obvious contributor to our understanding of the brain, and the relationship between brain and mind, because it's an obvious research question: "What changes in a brain when someone is able to go into hypnosis, generate an anesthesia, and have a surgery?" Using fMRI scanning techniques, PET scans, SPECT scans, the person has a scan, then they go through hypnosis and some procedure and then they have another scan, and you literally watch how their brain changes. We're learning about how brains change in psychotherapy or through suggestive procedures, whether it's cognitive therapy or some kind of hypnotic protocol. But the fact that hypnosis is now at the heart of the new neuroscience, this is how fields advance.

No form of therapy that I'm aware of doesn't include suggestion as a basic part of its procedures.
No form of therapy that I'm aware of doesn't include suggestion as a basic part of its procedures. Even the suggestion, "If you lie on the couch, you'll feel better. If you talk about your dreams, you'll feel better. If you feel your deep, innermost thoughts, you'll feel better." That's a suggestion. That "if you come here four times a week and talk about these things, you'll get better in a couple years"—that's a suggestion. And to say to somebody, "It'll take you a couple years to do this," is a very powerful suggestion. Because what you're now telling the person is, "You really shouldn't start to feel any better any sooner than that."
RM: That’s a strong statement.
MY: "And if you do start to feel better sooner than that, then that's a problem. That's a defense. That's a flight to health." It's an unusual way of framing it. But the point is, how is it that somebody can practice a form of therapy and not understand the role they play in how the therapy proceeds? That it's not just uncovering what's in the person. There are two people in the room; you're influencing this person whether you realize it or not. And the danger for me is when people are influencing someone and they don't realize it. It's like the big controversy we had here in the United States 15 years ago, about false memories.
RM: Oh, yes.
MY: You had therapists who didn't know that by digging for the memories, they could actually create them. They thought they were just uncovering memories. They didn't know that they were influencing what kind of memories came up and what the quality of those memories were. That's what's dangerous. That's when therapy goes badly–when people don't recognize they are a fundamental, unavoidable part of the process.
RM: It seems obvious that every therapy approach would benefit from learning something about hypnosis and suggestions…
MY: I certainly feel that way, yes.
RM: Can this approach be combined with any other therapeutic approaches?
MY: Well, it isn't a therapy, so the answer is yes. It is routinely incorporated by practitioners who use hypnosis in different ways. There is one form of hypnosis called hypnoanalysis, where therapists use hypnosis to enhance the processes of psychoanalysis. There are others who do cognitive-behavioral hypnotherapy, and they're doing hypnosis from a cognitive-behavioral framework. You name it and there are people who are doing it. So hypnosis isn't really a therapy.
RM: It isn’t an approach either.
MY: It's a tool. It's a way of organizing ideas, it's a way of delivering information, it's a way of creating a context where this person can listen to what you have to say and can talk about what they need to say. So how any one therapist would use the principles of hypnosis—that's going to be up to them. It's the equivalent of learning a language, and then each person expresses themselves in their own way. So some people will use hypnosis to give commands to someone: "You will do this, you will do this, you will do this." Personally, that's not my style, and I don't particularly care for that style. There are other people who simply introduce possibilities: "You might want to think about this."
RM: And this is your style.
MY: It's closer to my style.. The reason why I think people should study hypnosis is because hypnosis has studied the quality of communication between a therapist and client. It studies whether your approach should be more direct or more indirect, whether you should be more positive or more negative, whether you should give more detail or less detail, whether you should be more directive or less directive. It teaches you flexibility in how to adjust your style to the patient's need—"How does this person process information so that I can present information to them in a way that fits?"—as opposed to fitting the client to, "This is my theory, this is what I do. And if you don't benefit from it, it's because you're really sick."

Surprising Origins, Unexpected Discoveries

RM: All right. Let’s finish with the question that is usually asked at the beginning of an interview. What stirred your interest in depression, and how did your understanding and ways of treating patients evolve during that time?
MY: When I was studying and getting my degrees, it might interest you to know that I spent my first four years studying psychoanalysis and learning to speak that language fluently. I understand psychoanalysis. I've studied it at one of the finest academic institutions in the United States, the University of Michigan, which was at the time a very heavily psychoanalytic school.
RM: So it’s not like you’re rejecting some ideas that you’ve just heard about, but you’re rejecting ideas that you know profoundly well.
MY: I do definitely, profoundly. Some of the most distinguished analysts in the United States were my professors. But I was moved by the fact that depression was and still is the most common mood disorder in United States–indeed in the world. And there were no good treatments for it. A depressed person is never going to go into analysis anyway—they don't have the frustration tolerance, they don't have the ability to feel bad day after day after day for years waiting for the therapist to say something helpful—the problem doesn't fit the solution. Analysis isn't going to be valuable for most depressed people. They want an answer and they want it now. They want to feel better now. And it's part of the pattern of depression to want it now—it's called low frustration tolerance. Do we say, "Well, that's part of the problem and we shouldn't have to change what we do to fit their problem?" To me that is the opposite response I have, which is, "How do I help this person from within their own framework, instead of expecting them to somehow magically come to my framework?"

At that time, cognitive therapy was in its absolute infancy. It wasn't well developed yet. There were no good therapies, and there were no good drugs. And so to watch people suffer in depression, and to know that nobody's doing anything that really makes a difference, for me it was a challenge. "Can I make a contribution here? Here's the most common problem, and I want to be able to do something about it."
RM: You wanted to have some influence. You wanted to be able to help these people.
MY: I wanted to be able to help. I wanted to be a true clinician and help as many people as quickly as possible. And so the idea of developing short-term interventions was obvious in importance. It's how people use therapy. It's interesting that when you look at the studies of people in therapy, the average number of sessions is between six and seven. The most common number of sessions is one. Can you really do therapy in one session? You saw a video of my work, with 10-year follow-up.
RM: Yeah, it was pretty amazing.
MY: So what does that do to the psychoanalytic viewpoint? It challenges it. And that's the point–you can either dismiss it, or you can say, "There's something here worth studying," depending on how open and how flexible you are. If you're rigid, you pathologize it. If you're open, you say, "There's something there worth studying." And so I was very interested in studying people who have recovered from depression, and asking "What made the difference? What helped you overcome all the helplessness and hopelessness and all of that? What changed for you? How did you cope? How did you learn? How did you relate? How did you, how did you, how did you?" What I realized very quickly when I got into clinical practice was that
everything that I had been studying for the last four years was irrelevant in the real world.
everything that I had been studying for the last four years was irrelevant in the real world.
RM: I think you had a lot of courage to make such a statement.
MY: To me it didn't seem like courage. It just seemed like common sense, that one of two things is going to happen: I'm either going to build my own little world and try to bring people to it, or I'm going to go out into the world and talk to people in terms of the way they think and the way they do things. So to me it didn't seem like courage—it seemed like common sense. And it took me years to unlearn everything I learned.
RM: Everything? Or is there anything left?
MY: If you ask me today, is there one thing that I learned then that I still use? I can't think of a single thing. It took me a long time to unlearn that because I had been intensely trained to continually look for symbolism, to continually look for deeper meaning, to continually speculate about unconscious needs and wishes. And those were all things that got in my way of actually helping desperate people who needed help now.
RM: Thank you very much for this very inspiring conversation. I hope our readers will enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed talking with you.
MY: Well, predictably, readers are going to react in one of two ways. They're either going to get angry and conclude I don't know what I'm talking about, or hopefully they'll say, "Maybe now would be a good time to start to explore what other people have to say about dealing with these same problems," because then the question becomes "What is the most effective way to treat depression?" And there's no single answer for that.

But it's certainly interesting that, of the many different therapies that have good treatment success rate, it's interesting that none of them analyze childhood. None of them focus on symbolic meanings of things. All of them teach skills. All of them have an orientation towards the future that help the client come to understand how the future can be different in very specific ways. So instead of saying that the goal is insight, saying that the goal is change–that poses a direct challenge. And typically when people are challenged, they either get angry or they get open. I'm hoping at least some of the readers will get curious enough to see what else is going on that might inspire them to change some of what they do in ways that they feel good about.
RM: Any concluding remarks that you want to share with the therapists who might read this interview?
MY: You know, I am a clinician. I am treating the same kinds of patients, maybe even more severe patients than the average clinician treats. And I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for people who make psychotherapy their profession. It's almost as if it's a calling. You want to do something to reduce human suffering, and you are forced to make decisions about how you're going to practice and what the goals of practice are. Is the goal to be loyal to a theory, or is the goal to make a difference? Is the goal to continually filter things in life through your preexisting beliefs, or is the goal to be open and curious about what other people are doing to see if what they're doing works better? And for me, everything that I've learned has come from studying people who do things well, recognizing that they have abilities and strengths—even the people I treat who are severely depressed. Okay, they're depressed; it doesn't mean they're stupid. They have great wisdom, they have a great many skills, and we can learn from those. And especially from the people who handle things well, what can we learn from them? So if somebody recovers well from a loss, instead of saying they're in denial, why aren't we studying how they did that? When somebody bounces back from an adversity, why are we saying that's a defense mechanism instead of an asset? I firmly believe that what you notice and what you focus on, you amplify. And if you focus on pathology, you'll find it. And if you focus on strengths, you'll find them. So I would simply encourage therapists to look for what's right. I think they'll be better clinicians for it.
RM: You’ve raised some mind-opening questions at the end of our conversation. Thank you very much. It was a huge pleasure.
MY: Thank you. It was my pleasure.

Irvin Yalom on Existential Psychotherapy and Death Anxiety

From Chapter One: Origins

Ruthellen Josselson: This was your first case presentation.
Irvin Yalom: Right. I was pretty anxious about it. I remember my patient very clearly—a red-headed, freckled woman, a few years older than I. I was to meet with her for eight weekly sessions (the length of the clerkship.) In the first session she told me she was a lesbian.

That was not a good start because I didn't know what a lesbian was. I had never heard the term before. I made an instant decision that the only way I could really relate to her was to be honest and to tell her I didn't know what a lesbian was. So I asked her to enlighten me and over the eight weeks we developed a close relationship. She was the patient I presented to the faculty.

Now I had been to several of these conferences with other students and they were gut- wrenching. Each of these analysts would try to outdo the other with pompous complex formulations. They showed little empathy for the student who was often crushed by the merciless criticism.

I simply got up and talked about my patient and told it as a story. I don't think I even used any notes. I said here's how we met. Here's what she looked like. Here's what I felt. Here's what evolved. I told her of my ignorance. She educated me. I was profoundly interested in what she told me. She grew to trust me. I tried to help as best I could though I had few arrows of comfort in my quiver.

At the end of my talk there was a loud long total silence. I was puzzled. I had done something that was extremely easy and natural for me. And, one by one, the analysts—those guys who couldn't stop one-upping each other—said things to the effect of, "Well, this presentation speaks for itself. There's nothing we can say. It's a remarkable case. A startling and tender relationship." And all I had done was simply tell a story, which felt so natural and effortless for me. That was definitely an eye-opening experience: Then and there I knew I had found my place in the world.

This memory is perhaps a life-defining moment for Yalom. As he remembers and talks about it, he is deeply moved. In some ways, his work ever since has been about telling stories, stories about his encounters with people as a therapist, stories that instruct us about how to connect meaningfully with others. He has retained his essential humility—he still allows others to teach him about their reality as he tries to encounter them in their deepest being and offer them a relationship in which they can heal. This moment also marked for Yalom a route out of the anonymity he had experienced throughout his education. Despite his academic successes, no one had recognized that he had any particular talent and he had only the vaguest sense that he had some special ability. For the first time, he was recognized—and for doing something that his teachers had never seen done before.

RJ: Where did you get the courage to do that?
IY: It didn't feel like anything courageous, as I recall—but this is over fifty years ago—I didn't have other options. It was my turn to present a case, this was my way to present a case. Whenever afterward I presented a case, whenever I presented at grand rounds or a lecture, I had the audience's full attention. I always had that ability.
RJ: So this moment when you told the case to the analysts and they were silent, they were unable to respond in their usual ways and start to compete with each other with formulations, you felt that they saw in you and that you had done something worth noticing, something important?
IY: Oh, yeah, for sure. If I try to understand it now across all those decades, I think it was because I was talking about a psychiatric case, but speaking in a whole different realm, a literary, story-telling realm. And their formulations had no sway. The jargon, the interpretations, all that had nothing to do with the story I told them. Of course that's my view: I'd love to go back in time and learn what they were really thinking.
RJ: There are so many different ways to tell a story, including the usual case presentation which is also a way to tell a story. But this was a different way to tell a story.
IY: I didn't know anything about telling a story or what telling a story meant in any kind of technical way, but I somehow knew how to put things together to create a drama.
RJ: With yourself in it.
IY: Oh, with myself in it. How I met her, how I didn't know anything about her being a lesbian, how baffled I was, how I guessed she must feel to work with a therapist who's admitted that he's totally ignorant of her lifestyle, how she must have worried about my accepting her, how I must have given to her some representative of the whole world who knew nothing about her and who possibly might ostracize her in some way.
RJ: You didn’t judge her, or pathologize her, or do something like that. You were able, in fact, to engage with her in a very human way.
IY: Yes. I think that's true. I did not ostracize her—just the opposite, my confessing my ignorance drew us closer together—a relationship forged in honesty.
RJ: As opposed to the psychiatric way or psychoanalytic way that would look at her as a carrier of symptoms and pathology.
IY: That's right, case formulations which focus narrowly on pathology were very distasteful to me.
RJ: It was distasteful even in medical school.
IY: Even in medical school—I didn't like the distant disinterested stance of many psychiatrists I encountered.
RJ: But you were still clear you wanted to go into psychiatry even though what they were doing was not something that you felt was at all appealing.
IY: That's right. Once or twice I wavered because there were so many things I liked about medicine. I liked taking care of people, liked passing on to them what Dr. Manchester had passed on to me. But I never seriously entertained doing anything else in medicine. So I was committed. At this point, I was already starting to read a lot about psychiatry.

From Chapter Six: Yalom’s Reflections on His Work

RJ: I am impressed by how much philosophy you have read and integrated in your work as a therapist and a writer.
IY: I spent 10 years reading philosophical works and writing Existential Psychotherapy. It was a good friend, Alex Comfort (a man known for The Joy of Sex but who wrote over fifty scholarly books) who advised me it was time to stop reading and start writing. But I've continued to read philosophy ever since. Existential Psychotherapy was a sourcebook for all that I've written since then. All the books of stories and the novels were ways of expanding one or the other aspects of Existential Psychotherapy.
RJ: But you don’t think about Existential Psychotherapy as being a school of psychotherapy?
IY: No. I never have. You cannot simply be trained as an existential psychotherapist. One has to be a well-trained therapist and then set about developing a sensitivity to existential issues. I've always resisted the idea of starting an institute or a training program. I have such a strong pull towards writing. I really love to write.
RJ: With the widespread success of your case story books and then your first novel, did you then start writing more to the general public?
IY: No, I always thought my audience was the young therapist, young residents in psychiatry and student psychologists and counselors.
RJ: So you never thought about writing to the general public? They would be eavesdropping as you spoke to therapists.
IY: Yes, they would be eavesdropping because they had been in therapy or were interested in the topic of therapy. I think the Love's Executioner book description proclaimed that this book was for people on both sides of the couch. And I also thought people in philosophy would be interested, especially in the Nietzsche book and the Schopenhauer. That psychobiography of Schopenhauer was original—there's no other work like that.
RJ: How come you chose Schopenhauer? With Nietzsche it’s clearer to me, because you are so close to his philosophy.
IY: Schopenhauer was always in the background. You have to remember that he was Nietzsche's teacher. (I mean intellectually—they never met.) But Nietzsche turned against him eventually and that break fascinated me for a long time. It was of great interest to me that they started from the same point, the same observations about the human condition, but one became life-celebrating and one life-negating. So what was that all about? I suspected it was driven by character, or personality, issues.

And also Freud was interested in Schopenhauer. He was the major German philosopher when Freud was educated. A great many of Freud's major ideas are sketched out in Schopenhauer's work. His work was very rich. He wrote voluminously about so many other topics such as politics, musicology, and esthetics but I concentrated solely on his writings about life and existence.

You have to recognize the human condition before you can figure out how to deal with it. Schopenhauer can inform us about the futility of desire and the inevitably of oblivion, but eventually it's the Nietzschean idea of embracing life that is the viable answer to this dilemma.
RJ: In so many of your stories as well as the novels, there is a recurrence of the themes of sex obsession and love obsession. Can you tell me about how come this captured your interest?
IY: I've always been struck with the idea of romantic love and losing oneself in the other in that way, which I've often characterized as "the lonely I dissolving into the we." And therefore you lose the sense of personal separateness and find comfort in the lack of loneliness. That's why I've always been intrigued with Otto Rank's formulation of going back and forth between the poles of life anxiety and death anxiety. And also Ernest Becker, who is very Rankian, and developed Rank's ideas in his wonderful book, The Denial of Death.

So I've always been interested in this idea of romantic love and also in religious submission, which is similar—both relate to the ultimate concern of isolation. And this issue of obsession was a predominant theme in Nietzsche.

I had a patient recently who was obsessed about a woman who had broken off with him but he couldn't get her out of his mind and he went and read the Nietzsche book and came back and said it did him more good than the two years of therapy we had done.
RJ: So we strive to be autonomous but have difficulty dealing with our separateness?
IY: Yes, and also underneath much compulsive activity is a lot of death anxiety. Often the death anxiety is overlooked because of other issues such as rage.
RJ: So in the pain of existential isolation, the lonely I is connected to rage which is connected to death anxiety. And the fear and the rage is about both aloneness and death. We are thrown into this finite existence alone. In your Nietzsche novel and in some of the stories, the aim is to help people give up the obsession.
IY: Helping them find some more authentic way of relating to others.
RJ: Do you see love obsession and sex obsession as the same thing?
IY: I see them as first cousins. In The Schopenhauer Cure, Phillip's anxiety was assuaged by the sexual coupling, but the relief was evanescent. In romantic love, life can't be lived without this person and if you lose her, you're in continual grief—that's been the problem for many of my patients.
RJ: How do you distinguish between authentic meaningful connection and love obsession?
IY: The basic distinction lies in rationality, not thinking in irrational terms. A love obsession is highly irrational. It's ascribing things to the other that aren't there, not seeing the other as the other is, not being able to see the other person as a finite, separate person who doesn't have magical powers. A love obsession comes from the same stuff as religion, ascribing powers to the other.
RJ: Don't you think that when people love one another, they do some of that's a certain amount of idealizing, making the other person very special?
IY: I think that a true love relationship is caring for the being and becoming of the other person and having accurate empathy for the other person where you are trying to care for the other person in every way you can. But that may not be the focus of a love obsession. Like the first story in Love's Executioner—where one of the dyad did not even know the other was having a psychotic experience. People will fall in love with someone they hardly know. In true love, you see the other person accurately as a human being like yourself. You fall in love with someone by seeing who they are and what they are so they aren't forced to be someone they're not. For me, the kind of love relationship I want to espouse is one where one's eyes are wide open.
RJ: So that would be a measure of the rationality of the relationship.
IY: Yes.
RJ: In your most recent book, Staring at the Sun, you return to the theme of death. I wonder why now?
IY: I'm dealing more with this because of my age. I'm 76 now, an age when people die and I see my friends aging and dying. I see myself on borrowed time. I spoke about much of this in Staring at the Sun.
RJ: What has it meant to write this book at this age?
IY: I've been so inured, so plunged into the topic. Originally I was going to write a series of connected fictional stories about dealing with death anxiety. I had been reading a lot of Plato and Epicurus and I thought I would write a series of stories with some connection. I was inspired by a Murukami book called After the Quake in which all the stories were connected by one thing: the Kobe earthquake. I had six stories in mind and my plan was to start each story with the identical nightmare about death. In each story the dreamer wakes up in a panic about dying, leaves the house and searches for someone who can help him with his death anxiety. The first story was set in 348 BC and the dreamer goes out in search of Epicurus. A second story would involve a minor Pope of the middle ages, then in Freud's time, then more contemporary stories. But I spent so much time researching the first story on Epicurus, reading about what the ancient Greeks had for breakfast—what's a Greek café like, what clothing was worn, then I started reading novels about ancient Greece, a novel about Archimedes, and about the priestesses at Delphi—until six months had elapsed and I realized that the background research would take years and I reluctantly gave up the idea, which I thought was a splendid concept. Perhaps one of the readers of this interview will write it some day.

So I went to the other project I had in mind, a revision of Existential Psychotherapy. I reread it carefully and underlined things I wanted to change and organized a course of students who would read it with me and help me to select the dated material, but, in the end, I was overwhelmed by the task, especially the scope of the library research looking up the empirical research on the ultimate concerns that has been accumulating in the twenty-five years since I first published this book. So I gave that up and wrote a book on what I had learned about an existential approach in the years that have passed since I wrote the textbook. Next my agent, noting that seventy-five per cent of the book addressed death anxiety, suggested that I might write a tighter book if I concentrated only on death anxiety. Finally the book underwent one more metamorphosis when my publisher suggested I direct it more to the general public. I agreed to do so but insisted upon a final chapter directed at therapists. I believe the strongest chapter is a personal chapter dealing with the development of my own awareness of death.
RJ: Would you say that doing this book makes you even less fearful about death than when you started it?
IY: I think so. But writing about death anxiety wasn't an effort to heal myself about it. I've never been that consumed with death anxiety. It was more of an issue a long time ago when I started working with cancer patients. I don't think I've been unusual in my degree of death anxiety. Now I feel like I've become effective in dealing with patients with death anxiety and am confident that I can offer help.

Irv shared with me a number of email letters he gets daily from people all over the world. These are heartfelt (often heart-rending) letters from people expressing their appreciation of the ways in which his writings have changed their lives.

"It is not enough to say that your words moved me or affected me. When at the end [of The Schopenhauer Cure] Pam placed her hands on Phillip and told him what he needed to hear—the words on the page began to blur, all I could do was lean my head back, swipe at the onslaught of tears and wait for my faculties to return. It was the catharsis I needed." Or from another: "I know I am alone and finite, but I feel connected to the rest of humanity in reading your books because everyone else, I realize, is in the same boat—and thanks for that insight/comfort." And from a professor in Turkey: "I'm writing to you in appreciation of keeping me excellent company through the rough hours of the day: when you are alone, or even worse (better?) when you think you are alone . . . I usually start my lessons with a saying or a thought of yours in order to boost my class—and me—to open a new window and see things a little bit different."

Other letters are from people longing to find some salve for their emotional pain, some of what he has provided his own patients. He answers each of these letters personally, acknowledging their meaning for him or, when he can, offering counsel.

RJ: What have these letters meant to you?
IY: I feel I have another, a second therapy practice. I know I mean a lot to some of my readers. I'm aware that they imbue me with a lot more wisdom than I have and they long to connect with me. I try to answer every letter, even if it's just to say thank you for your note. This correspondence makes me unusually aware of my readership. I took an early retirement from the Department of Psychiatry ten years ago. One of my main reasons was that psychiatry had become so re-medicalized that my students had little interest in psychotherapy and instead were far more interested in biochemistry and pharmacological research and practice. I didn't really have students who were interested in what I had to teach. So I now feel that my teaching is done through my writing. I don't miss classroom teaching because I feel that I now have this whole other way of teaching. I consider my writing teaching and getting this correspondence keeps me aware of that all the time.
RJ: What message do you try to convey in response?
IY: As I said, some simply express appreciation for the writing or tell me it was meaningful to them and I simply state that I feel good that my writing had a positive impact. Sometimes I say that writers send their books out like ships at sea and that I'm delighted that a book arrived at the right port.

There are other readers who ask for help for some personal issue and, if appropriate, I urge them to seek therapy. Some write a second time thanking me for being instrumental in their obtaining help. Some readers comment that their current therapy isn't helping and ask for email therapy. I don't do therapy by email and urge them to be direct with their therapist and to express these sentiments openly. I even suggest that concealing these feelings may be instrumental in their therapy not being useful. Their job in therapy is to share all their feelings and wishes with their therapists. Able therapists will welcome this forthrightness. My main message though is to let them know that I've read their letter.
RJ: It makes me so sad to hear that you had students who didn’t want to learn what you had to teach. What does this say about the future of psychotherapy?
IY: I do feel there is a pendulum swinging, even in psychiatry. I do hear about more programs starting to introduce therapy again. Many contemporary therapists are trained in manualized mechanical modes—all of which eschew the authentic encounter. After some years of practice, however, a great many of these therapists come to appreciate the superficiality of their approach and yearn for something deeper, something more far-reaching and lasting. At this time therapists enter postgraduate therapy training programs or supervision. Or they learn by entering their own therapy. And I can assure you they never never seek a therapist who practices mechanical, behavioral or manualized therapy. They go in search of a genuine encounter that will recognize the challenge inherent in facing the human condition.
RJ: From Afterword
IY: In 2005, Irv and I went to visit Jerome Frank, Irv's mentor and friend, who lived in a nursing home nearby my own home in Baltimore. We had been visiting him, separately and together, over many years, as he steadily declined with age. Even as his physical and mental impairments progressed, Jerry was always professorially dressed in suit and tie. "Tell me what you're working on," Jerry would usually ask Irv when we arrived, and they would embark on lively conversation about Irv's work and whatever Jerry was reading at the time. (My role was usually to sit and smile and enjoy the warmth of their connection. I knew Jerry far less well and for less long, of course.) On this particular occasion, Jerry was not wearing his suit and, after a few moments, it became clear that his mental decline was far worse. In fact, we soon realized that he didn't know who we were. I was very embarrassed and unsure what to do, and I left the conversational challenge to Irv. He tried a few topics to engage Jerry and found that Jerry could still remember some people from the distant past and they talked some about them. But then, Irv's genius asserted itself in the flow of this difficult interaction and he asked, kindly and compassionately, "What is like for you, Jerry, to be sitting here talking to people when you aren't sure who we are?" Always the here and now! And Jerry understood and responded to the care in the question. "I'm glad of the company," he said, "and you know, it's not so bad. Each day I wake up and see outside my window the trees and the flowers and I'm happy to see them. It's not so bad." Once again, Irv had penetrated to the existential core of Jerry's experience, and he did so by daring to speak the simple reality of our being together. Perhaps the message of his whole corpus of work is just this. It's all we have.

Dan Wile on Collaborative Couples Therapy

The Interview

Ruth Wetherford: Dan, thank you for agreeing to be interviewed for Psychotherapy.net. I’m delighted to be interviewing you to bring more information about collaborative couple therapy to the world. Let’s start with the question of how you got into psychology. How did that happen for you?
Dan Wile: Well, it was in the family. My mother is a psychiatrist, and my sister became a social worker. I was planning to be a psychiatrist myself. But when I went to the University of Chicago, I discovered that if I was going to be pre-med, I wouldn't be able to take the University of Chicago Great Books courses. So I decided at that point to be a psychologist.
RW: In your writing, you often credit the work of Berkeley psychologist Bernard Apfelbaum for contributing to your ideas. Do you have specific memories of working with him that stand out for you?
DW: A bunch of us would meet with him every month, we'd present all kinds of ideas and cases, and he'd always come up with a fascinating new angle for looking at the matter. He seemed to be thinking at a higher level than practically everyone else I knew. Whenever I do therapy, I think, "What would Bernie say about this situation?"

The Importance of Non-Pejorative Interpretations

RW: The growing emphasis in psychotherapy on the quality of the relationship between the therapist and the client, more than on the accuracy of interpretation, has contributed to a cultural milieu perhaps more receptive to your ideas, and your approach is gaining more interest and attention in recent years. What is it about your work that makes it more appealing to people at this point in the development of the profession?
DW: I use my relationship with my client couples to improve the accuracy of my interpretations. I make guesses about what they're thinking and feeling but not saying, check with them whether these guesses are accurate, and revise my statements according to what they say. We figure out together what's true about them. And I use my interpretations to create a collaborative relationship with the partners. They like the fact that I take their view of the matter into account, and, in fact, make them the final arbiter of the accuracy of the interpretation. And they like that my theory of personality and relationships leads to interpretations that are non-pejorative. That was the problem with the old style of interpretations and what got them into disrepute—they were pejorative.
RW: Interpretations frequently imply blame, and have the pejorative connotations you just referred to. Your approach emphasizes the opposite of that: acceptance.
DW:
A big problem in couple therapy is that we react to clients in the same way partners do with each other when they fight.
A big problem in couple therapy is that we react to clients in the same way partners do with each other when they fight. When clients act in an arrogant, bullying, or other off-putting way, we get angry at them—though, of course, in a much milder way than the partners do with each other. Being angry, we think of these clients in pejorative terms, make pejorative interventions, and lose the ability to look at things from their point of view. When a client says or does something off-putting, you can stand back in negative judgment and say to yourself, "Well, this is borderline or sadistic or passive-aggressive,"—or you can imagine what it's like being in that person's position and what inner struggle the person is engaged in that's leading them to be stuck in this off-putting behavior. I spend a lot of my effort in couple therapy trying to recognize when I'm standing back in negative judgment so I can overcome it.
RW: That process of putting yourself in the other’s position and seeing how it makes sense that they could be stuck—is that what you call empathy?
DW: Yes, that's a good way to put it
RW: Would you discuss the centrality of empathy in your work?
DW: A big problem in couple therapy is finding yourself siding with one partner against the other, feeling unempathic. And that's not a place where you can do therapy. So I try to think how to shift out of my pejorative view of this person and imagine what it's like being in their shoes and seeing the hidden reasonableness in their seemingly unreasonable and irrational behavior. If I can get myself in a mood where I'm not reacting to them, I can make a pretty good guess as to what that is or think of questions to ask that would bring it out.
RW: You’re pointing to the importance of self-control of the therapist’s own emotional reactions. Do you have some tools you can share or ways that you manage yourself internally?
DW: I have three tools. First,
just recognizing that I am reacting and viewing them in negative ways may be enough to shift me into a more compassionate place
just recognizing that I am reacting and viewing them in negative ways may be enough to shift me into a more compassionate place and enable me to begin to look at things from their point of view. If that isn't enough, the second thing is I have slogans—statements I make to myself or questions I ask myself—that remind me of my theory and help me shift to a more compassionate mode.

One slogan is, "My job is to become spokesperson for the partner I find myself siding against." Another is, "What is the internal struggle this person is having?" It's great to ask myself that question because until I ask it, I don't think there is an internal struggle—I think that person is just enjoying being provocative. Another question I ask myself is: "What is the vulnerable feeling that, because the person can't express it, is causing this person to act in this off-putting way as a fallback measure?" Still another question is: "What can I say or ask that will enable the person to feel listened to?"

If these slogans and questions aren't enough to get me out of my adversarial state, the third thing I do is I try to get myself out of this state by expressing what I need to say to clear my gills, just as I try to get partners out of their adversarial state by helping them express what they need to say.

One of the advantages of couple therapy is you can move in and speak for the partner. I use a psychodrama kind of method—
I move over and kneel next to the person I am speaking for.
I move over and kneel next to the person I am speaking for. For example, if I'm reacting to how one partner seems to be bulling the other, I can move over and, speaking for that person, I can say, "When you get bullying like this, I just stop listening and wonder why I'm in this relationship." The partner I'm speaking for usually likes this, and I feel much better—so much so, in fact, that I'm suddenly able to look at things from the point of view of the bullying partner. My feeling of empathy has returned for that person and I move over and make a confiding statement for him.
RW: What might that be?
DW: I might say for that person, "Well, I know that you don't listen to me when I come on strong like this. I feel helpless and get frustrated. I've lost some friends because I've come across this way. But there's something important I'm trying to say and I wish I could find a way to say it that doesn't blow you away." Of course, I would immediately check with this person to see which parts of this, if any, capture how he feels.

Finding the Leading-Edge Feeling

RW: You talk about the “leading edge,” and I know that’s one of your core concepts. Say more about the leading edge and how you try to elicit the couple to talk about this.
DW: Well, I figure that, at any given moment, there is a thought or a feeling each person is having that is who they are at the moment. It's what Marshall Rosenberg calls "what's alive at the moment." If there's going to be intimacy between the two partners, this is what each needs to confide to the other and feel that it gets across.
I'm looking, at any given moment, for the feeling the person needs to express that would make them sigh with relief and feel closer to their partner.
I'm looking, at any given moment, for the feeling the person needs to express that would make them sigh with relief and feel closer to their partner. And the term "leading-edge feeling" sort of captures what I have in mind.
RW: It seems like at any given moment there could be any number of feelings that they’re having, such as, “I’d better keep my mouth shut—I’m scared.” Another one could be, “I feel lonely; I feel distance.” Another one could be, “I’m so angry—I don’t deserve this.” How do you determine which is the more salient or the one you want to focus on more?
DW: I may be wrong, but I think that there is just one leading-edge feeling at any given moment—but it can quickly shift from, to use your example, fear to loneliness to resentment. But you're right that if I ask partners a multiple-choice question, they might pick the leading-edge feeling they had two moments before, one moment before, or right now.
RW: A multiple-choice question.
DW: If people don't respond when you ask them how they feel, you can help them along by suggesting possibilities. I might say, "Let me make it a multiple choice question: Are you feeling, A, hurt, or B, angry, or C, lonely, or D, something else entirely?"
RW: You’re very clear that you want people to feel more connected by increasingly confiding their inner vulnerabilities in a way that can be understood by the other. But when you’re trying to get them to reveal those things and they’re presenting their default modes of anger or withdrawal, you don’t shy away from that. How does that work?
DW: Well, at times withdrawing or being angry is a leading-edge feeling. So I would help people capture that. I might help them express their anger in a way that is more satisfying to them and easier for their partners to hear. Moving over and speaking for them, I might say, "I'm still fuming about what you said ten minutes ago. I'm not even listening to anything you're saying. It wiped me out." I'm hoping that the person I'm speaking for will express a sigh of relief and, when I ask whether I got her feelings right, will improve what I said to make it more accurate. If a partner is withdrawing, I'd try to give words to that. I'd move over next to that person and, speaking for that person, say, "Well, when you say what you just did, I get despairing, and feel hopeless about us and kind of give up and don't have anything to say." A statement like this—if the person were able to make it—is the way for that person to be intimate at that moment.
RW: It seems like so much of your method is in the nonverbals: your tone of voice and your facial expressions that imply what you want is for them to get closer by being able to confide and have so-called “elegant conversation.” You seem to be equally accepting of rancor and disconnection—you believe it’s just as important to talk about that as well. Is that right?
DW: That's right. I'm looking for the leading-edge feeling of the moment, and it could be any feeling, positive or negative. I'm always thinking that there's a way of confiding it rather than just acting from within it.
RW: That reminds me of another thing you emphasize, which is the “relationship atmosphere.” Talk about that.
DW: My focus in a couple is whether they're in an adversarial cycle, which means fighting—either a quiet one or a loud one—or a withdrawn cycle in which they're disengaged, or an intimate cycle in which they're expressing their leading-edge feelings and it's getting across to the other person. Those are three different moods that a couple goes through. And my task is to shift them from the withdrawn or adversarial mood they're in, into the collaborative one.
RW: That’s where intimacy occurs.
DW: That's right. That's intimacy. And
sometimes I show them what it would look like by enacting the conversation they'd be having right then if they weren't angry at each other, but instead were feeling intimate.
sometimes I show them what it would look like by enacting the conversation they'd be having right then if they weren't angry at each other, but instead were feeling intimate.
RW: By speaking for them.
DW: By speaking for them.
RW: You’ve written in your book, After the Honeymoon, that “a relationship is a busy place. It’s like an airport with lots of things going on and scheduled and unscheduled feelings arriving and departing.” Say more.
DW: In the metaphor of the airport, I was thinking particularly of the observation tower, where people up there would be looking at everything going on—the planes, or feelings, going in, going out. So the couple could be in that observation tower noticing how they shift among those three moods—how there's anger, withdrawal, and tenderness—and having an ongoing way of talking about what's happening in the relationship. The "permanent platform" is another metaphor I use.
RW: This has a lot of implications for your view of what constitutes intimacy. Do you have a summary about that, a distilled view?
DW: Yeah. It's that intimacy is each partner saying what's on their mind, their leading-edge feeling, with the other one understanding. And you could say that a goal I have in couples therapy is to get the partners to develop, or develop further, such a permanent platform from which they can co-monitor the relationship. Intimacy is created by the way partners talk about what's happening in their lives and, in particular, about what's happening between them.  It's a consequence of their ability to be mutual confidants. That's a key point to my approach—the goal of the couple developing the ability to observe their own interaction patterns, the permanent platform.
RW: So it’s not about agreement or consensus—it’s about being more revealing.
DW: Yeah, it's having a way of getting in touch with what you need to say, what you're feeling, and having a relationship in which the other person is able to take it in, is eager to hear it, and has a confiding comment to make in return. And it doesn't become a fight, and the other doesn't withdraw.
When people are saying the main things on their mind, their main worries and concerns, their ache of the moment, and feel it's heard by the other person—well, that's the height of intimacy.
When people are saying the main things on their mind, their main worries and concerns, their ache of the moment, and feel it's heard by the other person—well, that's the height of intimacy.

The Power of Negative Thinking

RW: The ache of the moment—that reminds me of your comment about the power of negative thinking. Say more about that.
DW: Well, that was my cutesy way of talking about the permanent platform, in that the couple would know that there are certain problems that arise, certain conflicts that they have, certain issues that keep coming up, and they have an ongoing way of talking about that in a collaborative way when it arises. That means you're not just trying to talk yourself out of the problem and look on the positive side, but are fully appreciating that it's a problem—that's the power of negative thinking.
RW: So you’re saying that couples who can go in and out of collaboration and intimacy are having conversations, not just about what they’re enjoying in their lives, but about what they’re not enjoying of the important things, including the relationship.
DW: Yeah. So it's an increasing ability, after a period of fighting or withdrawal, to have a recovery conversation where you figure out what happened and get together in an intimate way about what went wrong—which is one of the more intense experiences of intimacy that people can have, if they can have it.
RW: Tell me about the recovery conversation.
DW: It's inevitable that partners are going to fight and withdraw. Some couples are lucky to have the fight end without it escalating too much, and they wake up the next morning and go on as if nothing had happened. And maybe that works for them okay. But for some couples, that doesn't work. And there's a disadvantage anyway, because a fight or withdrawal is an opportunity for intimacy, in the discussion of it afterwards. But it's understandable that a couple might want to avoid having such a discussion, since it often gets them back into the fight. Having productive conversations is a skill that evolves over time. The goal of such a discussion is to end up with a picture of how each partner's position made sense and how the two of them got stuck in something. So it's a compassionate, commiserating, from-the-platform view of what happened in the fight.
RW: It’s been said that your compassion-based approach is compatible with attachment work. How do you see it being congruent with issues of secure and insecure attachment?
DW: Well, I'm trying to create secure attachment by enabling partners to confide their ache of the moment. When, in every given moment, or maybe in just enough moments, a person can confide their ache of the moment—this leading-edge feeling—and feel that the other understands, this increases the security of the bond between them.

The Pleasure of Being Non-Defensive

RW: You know, one aspect of your work that you describe a lot is your role of being utterly non-defensive. Anyone who knows your work would say that. How can you be so non-defensive?
DW: I tell myself to be non-defensive and take pleasure when I succeed.
And if a client criticizes me, I'm grateful the person is doing that rather than just quitting therapy without saying anything.
And if a client criticizes me, I'm grateful the person is doing that rather than just quitting therapy without saying anything. And I believe that such criticizing is often a fallback measure the person engages in because they couldn't say something more vulnerable. So I don't want to make the mistake of reacting to the fallback measure when what I really want to do is help them discover the more vulnerable feeling underlying it, such as, "You know, I feel uneasy about the therapy for this reason or that reason," or "I worry that we're really not getting anywhere," or "I'm afraid that nothing can help me." Well, if they can't get that out, they may be stuck just blaming me for something. So I want to track back to the person's vulnerable feeling rather than react and defend myself.
RW: Right. You’d call that “the pleasure of being non-defensive.” What’s pleasurable about it?
DW: Well, it's a goal I set for myself. Instead of feeling defeated or whipped, I have a certain amount of pride in being able to do that. Also, I find it enjoyable when we escape from polite conversation. So when a person is expressing some disappointment or anger at me that I could get defensive about, that person is likely to be saying something more direct than they've said for some time. For me—and I believe for others as well—there's some intrinsic pleasure in shifting from the level of politeness to that of directness. And so this would be a shift towards more directness—that would be enlivening, you'd get to feel more there. And you kind of slump when there's a movement in the other direction, of people saying things that are just polite and not engaged. Yes, there's more energy, more feeling, more aliveness with the escape from politeness.
RW: You describe things you tell yourself as slogans, implying you repeat them, you remind yourself frequently. And I know the repetition of thoughts and images that we want to acquire does lead to their acquisition. I would imagine that would be an important tool, to have some of these slogans that people can put in their own language and learn.
DW: Yeah—now that you say that, I realize a therapist's orientation can be thought of as developing from the slogans and questions that arise automatically in the individual's mind. For instance, one common automatic question or slogan in a therapist's mind is, "What family of origin issues could create the problem this person is having?" If that's one of the main questions you automatically ask, your therapy will go in a certain direction. Or, "What unconscious purpose does this serve?" Thinking that, your mind and your therapy will go in another direction. So there's the set of slogans and questions already in your mind. When I'm put off by a client's behavior, I can lose certain of my slogans that lead me to be compassionate.
RW: How does that happen?
DW: When I'm feeling okay, one of the questions I ask myself is, "What's the hidden reasonableness in what's going on?" But when I'm reacting to the person, I don't ask myself that—I just think the person is totally unreasonable. I lose the ability to do therapy, since therapy requires my appreciating how both partners' positions make sense. It's a temporary loss, because I get up in the tower of the airport as soon as I can, so I can notice what is happening and regain my ability to do therapy. Yeah, so in any given session, particularly with a difficult situation to handle, or with partners who might feel provocative, I can lose and regain my ability to do therapy repeatedly throughout the session. Hopefully I keep my mouth shut when I've lost the ability and only talk when I have it.
RW: And this is just like the couples—gaining and losing the ability to connect with each other over time.
DW: Exactly, yes.
RW: Well, we’re just about out of time. Is there anything else you’d like to add to this?
DW: You're a great interviewer—the questions you've asked got me more clearly in touch with my own theory. So between the two of us, we created a momentum where I became more able to get at it than if you'd asked other kinds of questions that would have taken me away from my theory.
RW: Thank you so much. We collaborated.
DW: Yes, we collaborated.

Thomas Szasz on Freedom and Psychotherapy

The Myth of Mental Illness 101

Randall C. Wyatt: I am going to ask you a wide variety of questions, given the diversity of your interests, and I want to make sure to also focus on your work as a psychotherapist. A little background first. You’ve been well-known for the phrase, “the myth of mental illness.” In less than 1000 words, what does it mean?
Thomas Szasz: The phrase "the myth of mental illness" means that mental illness qua illness does not exist. The scientific concept of illness refers to a bodily lesion, that is, to a material — structural or functional — abnormality of the body, as a machine. This is the classic, Virchowian, pathological definition of disease and it is still the definition of disease used by pathologists and physicians as scientific healers.

The brain is an organ — like the bones, liver, kidney, and so on — and of course can be diseased. That's the domain of neurology. Since a mind is not a bodily organ, it cannot be diseased, except in a metaphorical sense — in the sense in which we also say that a joke is sick or the economy is sick. Those are metaphorical ways of saying that some behavior or condition is bad, disapproved, causing unhappiness, etc.
In other words, talking about "sick minds" is analogous to talking about "sick jokes" or "sick economies."
In other words, talking about "sick minds" is analogous to talking about "sick jokes" or "sick economies." In the case of mental illness, we are dealing with a metaphorical way of expressing the view that the speaker thinks there is something wrong about the behavior of the person to whom he attributes the "illness."

In short, just as there were no witches, only women disapproved and called "witches," so there are no mental diseases, only behaviors of which psychiatrists disapprove and call them "mental illnesses." Let's say a person has a fear of going out into the open. Psychiatrists call that "agoraphobia" and claim it is an illness. Or if a person has odd ideas or perceptions, psychiatrists say he has "delusions" or "hallucinations." Or he uses illegal drugs or commits mass murder. These are all instances of behaviors, not diseases. Nearly everything I say about psychiatry follows from that.

RW: Let’s say that modern science, with all the advances in genetics and biochemistry, finds out that there are some behavioral correlates of biological deficits or imbalances, or genetic defects. Let’s say people who have hallucinations or are delusional have some biological deficits. What does that make of your ideas?
TS: Such a development would validate my views, not invalidate them, as my critics think. Obviously, I don't deny the existence of brain diseases; on the contrary, my point is that if mental illnesses are brain diseases, we ought to call them brain diseases and treat them as brain diseases — and not call them mental illnesses and treat them as such. In the 19th century, madhouses were full of people who were "crazy"; more than half of them, as it turned out, had brain diseases — mainly neurosyphilis, or brain injuries, intoxications, or infections. Once that was understood, neurosyphilis ceased to be a mental illness and became a brain disease. The same thing happened with epilepsy.
RW: It’s interesting, because a lot of students of mine, and colleagues, who have read your work or heard of your ideas, think that when condition previously thought to be mental is to be a brain disease, as noted, your ideas become moot.
TS: That's because they are not familiar with the history of psychiatry, don't really understand what a metaphor is, and don't want to see how and why psychiatric diagnoses are attached to people. Ted Kaczynski, the so-called Unabomber, was diagnosed as schizophrenic by government psychiatrists. If people want to believe that a "genetic defect" causes a person to commit such a series of brilliantly conceived crimes — but that when a person composes a great symphony, that's due to his talent and free will — so be it.

Objective, medical diagnostic tests measure chemical and physical changes in tissues; they do not evaluate or judge ideas or behaviors. Before there were sophisticated diagnostic tests, physicians had a hard time distinguishing between real epilepsy — that is to say, neurological seizures — and what we call "hysterical seizures," which is simply faking epilepsy, pretending to have a seizure. When epilepsy became understood as due to an increased excitability of some area of the brain, then it ceased to be psychopathology or mental illness, and became neuropathology or brain disease. It then becomes a part of neurology. Epilepsy still exists. Neurosyphilis, though very rare, still exists, and is not treated by psychiatrists; it is treated by specialists in infectious diseases, because it's an infection of the brain.

The discovery that all mental diseases are brain diseases would mean the disappearance of psychiatry into neurology. But that would mean that a condition would be a "mental disease" only if it could be demonstrated, by objective tests, that a person has got it, or has not got it. You can prove — objectively, not by making a "clinical diagnosis" — that X has neurosyphilis or does not have it; but you cannot prove, objectively, that X has or does not have schizophrenia or "clinical depression" or post traumatic stress disorder. Like most nouns and verbs, the word "disease" will always be used both literally and metaphorically. As long as psychiatrists are unwilling to fix the literal meaning of mental illness to an objective standard, there will remain no way of distinguishing between literal and metaphorical "mental diseases."
RW: Psychiatrists, of course, don’t want to be pushed out of the picture. They want to hold on to schizophrenia as long as they can, and now depression and gambling, and drug abuse, and so on, are proposed as biological or genetically determined. Everything is thought to have a genetic marker, perhaps even normality. What do you make of this?
TS: I hardly know what to say about this silliness. Unless a person understands the history of psychiatry and something about semantics, it's very difficult to deal with this. Diagnoses are NOT diseases. Period.
Psychiatrists have had some very famous diseases for which they have never apologized, the two most obvious ones being masturbation and homosexuality.
Psychiatrists have had some very famous diseases for which they have never apologized, the two most obvious ones being masturbation and homosexuality. People with these so-called "diseases" were tortured by psychiatrists — for hundreds of years. Children were tortured by antimasturbation treatments. Homosexuals were incarcerated and tortured by psychiatrists. Now all that is conveniently forgotten, while psychiatrists — prostitutes of the dominant ethic — invent new diseases, like the ones you mentioned. The war on drugs is the current psychiatric-judicial pogrom. And so is the war on children called "hyperactive," poisoned in schools with the illegal street drug called "speed," which, when called "Ritalin," is a miracle cure for them.

Let me mention another, closely related characteristic of psychiatry, as distinct from the rest of medicine. Only in psychiatry are there "patients" who don't want to be patients. This is crucial because my critique of psychiatry is two-pronged. One of my criticisms is conceptual: that is, that mental illness is not a real illness. The other one is political: that is, that mental illness is a piece of justificatory rhetoric, legitimizing civil commitment and the insanity defense.
Dermatologists, ophthalmologists, gynecologists, don't have any patients who don't want to be their patients. But the psychiatrists' patients are paradigmatically involuntarily.
Dermatologists, ophthalmologists, gynecologists, don't have any patients who don't want to be their patients. But the psychiatrists' patients are paradigmatically involuntarily.

Originally, all mental patients were involuntary, state hospital patients. That concept, that phenomenon, still forms the nucleus of psychiatry. And that is what is basically wrong with psychiatry. In my view, involuntary hospitalization and the insanity defense ought to be abolished, exactly as slavery was abolished, or the disfranchisement of women was abolished, or the persecution of homosexuals was abolished. Only then could we begin to examine so-called "mental illnesses" as forms of behavior, like other behaviors.

Slavery, Witchcraft, and Psychiatry

RW: In terms of involuntary hospitalization and coercive psychiatry, which you’ve critiqued in your works.
TS: Excuse me, all psychiatry is coercive, actually or potentially — because once a person walks into a psychiatrist's office, under certain conditions, that psychiatrist has the legal right and the legal duty to commit that person. The psychiatrist has the duty to prevent suicide and murder. The priest hearing confession has no such duty. The lawyer and the judge have no such duties. No other person in society has the kind of power the psychiatrist has. And that is the power of which psychiatrists must be deprived, just as white men had to be deprived of the power to enslave black men. Priests used to have involuntary clients. Now we call that forcible religious conversion and religious persecution; it used to be called "practicing the true faith" or "loving God." Now we have forcible psychiatric conversion and psychiatric persecution — and we call that "mental health" and "therapy." It would be funny if it were not so serious.
RW: The symbolic nature of psychiatry and the sociology of psychiatry are coercive. Yet, every act isn’t literally coercive. Somebody comes to a doctor and says, “I can’t sleep. I’m depressed. Can you give me something to help me go to sleep, help wake me up?” That’s a free exchange.
TS: That's correct. There are voluntary psychiatric exchanges, at least in principle. As I like to say, I wholeheartedly approve of psychiatric acts between consenting adults. But such acts are pseudo-medical in nature, because the problem at hand is not medical, and also because the transaction often rests on taking advantage of the criminalization of the free market in drugs. Why do you have to go to a doctor to get a sleeping pill or a tranquilizer? A hundred years ago you didn't have to do that, you could go to a drug store, or to Sears Roebuck, and buy all the drugs you wanted — opium, heroin, chloral hydrate. In certain ways, the psychiatric profession lives off the fact that only physicians can prescribe drugs, and the government has made most drugs that people want prescription drugs.
RW: On a side note, isn’t it interesting, and troubling, that most people who go to jail for drug abuse, or drug selling, are black and minority, and those that have the license to prescribe are often non-minority, and they get to be heroes in society for essentially selling what is sometimes the same merchandise, albeit legally, of course?
TS: Indeed. I discuss that new form of black enslavement in detail in my book, "Our Right to Drugs." Because of the kinds of laws we have, physicians prescribe mood-altering drugs, which patients often want and demand; it's a medicalized version of drug distribution. Physicians did the same thing with liquor during Prohibition, which was quite lucrative.
RW: And now psychiatry and pharmacology can be a lucrative business.
TS:
Psychiatry is a lucrative business only insofar as it partakes of these two medical-psychiatric privileges or monopolies — prescribing drugs, which only licensed physicians can do; and creating their own patients, that is, transforming people into patients against their will, which only psychiatrists can do.
Psychiatry is a lucrative business only insofar as it partakes of these two medical-psychiatric privileges or monopolies — prescribing drugs, which only licensed physicians can do; and creating their own patients, that is, transforming people into patients against their will, which only psychiatrists can do.

The Right to Use Drugs

RW: So what is your view on psychiatric medication for people suffering from “schizophrenia” or “problems in living” as you call it, or “interpersonal difficulties,” or “intra-psychic difficulties.” Whatever you call it, people suffer or are troubled internally or interpersonally. What is your view on the use of either legal or illegal drugs to help people cope with these things?
TS: I am smiling because I know you know my views! However, I wouldn't phrase the question this way. In my opinion, using drugs is a fundamental human right, similar to using books or prayer. Hence, it comes down to the question of what does a person want and how can he get what he wants? If a person wants a book, he can go to a store and get it or get it on the Internet. He ought to be able to get a drug the same way. If he doesn't know what to take, then he could go to a doctor or a pharmacist and ask them. And then he should be able to go and buy it.
RW: That brings up the issue of drug and prescription laws, which you have written about extensively.
TS: Indeed. Prescription drug laws are a footnote to drug prohibition. Prescription laws should be repealed. All drug laws should be repealed. Then, people could decide for themselves what helps them best to relieve their existential ails, assuming they want to do it with a drug: opium or marijuana or cigarettes or Haldol or Valium. After all, the only arbiter of what ails a person "mentally" and what makes him feel or function better, as he defines better, is the patient. We don't have any laboratory tests for neuroses and psychoses.

As for insomnia, typically that's a complaint, an indirect communication, to obtain sleeping pills. A person can't go to a physician and tell him: Please write me a prescription for a barbiturate. If he did that, he would be diagnosed and denounced as an addict. So he must say: "I can't sleep." How could the doctor know if that's true?
RW: You ask him how many hours he sleeps, he says two hours a night.
TS: How would the doctor know if that's true? The term "insomnia" can function as a strategic lie that the patient has to utter to get the prescription he wants.

The Therapeutic State and the Medical Model

RW: You seem to have a different view of the medical model of medicine, than the medical model of psychiatry.
TS: Yes, very much so. We don't speak of the medical model of medicine in medicine or the medical model of pneumonia. There is no other model. We don't speak of the electrical model of why a light bulb emits light. Language is very important. If a person says: "I am against the medical model of mental illness," that implies that mental illness exists and that there is some other model of it. But there is no mental illness. There is no need for any model of it.

The important issue is not the "medical model," a badly abused term; the issue is the "pediatric model," the "irresponsibility model" — treating people labeled as mentally ill as if they were little children and as if the psychiatrist was their parent. The pillars of psychiatry are medically rationalized and judicially legitimized coercions and excuses.
RW: If you were to use mental illness as a metaphor, or pseudonym… disease meaning “dis-ease,” people are personally distressed, the psychosocial model of mental illness. If you substitute “emotional troubles”.
TS: No. That won't do. Almost anything can be the cause of emotional trouble — being black or being poor or being rich, for that matter. Innumerable human conditions can create human distress. Which ones are we going to medicalize, and which ones are we not? We used to medicalize, psychiatrize, blacks running away from slavery, masturbation, homosexuality, contraception. Now we don't. Instead we medicalize what used to be called melancholia, and sloth, and self-murder, and racism, and sexism.
RW: To shift gears.
TS: Let's not yet. Because I want to add that
it is this tendency to call more and more human problems "diseases" and then try to remedy them, or "attack" them, as if they were diseases is what I call "the therapeutic state."
it is this tendency to call more and more human problems "diseases" and then try to remedy them, or "attack" them, as if they were diseases is what I call "the therapeutic state."
RW: Certainly everything used to be viewed religiously, and now so much is seen as medical. The transformation is almost pure.
TS: Exactly! And it's perfectly obvious. It requires the systematic educational and political dumbing down of people not to see it. Three hundred years ago, every human predicament was seen as a religious problem — sickness, poverty, suicide, war. Now they are all seen as medical problems — as psychiatric problems, as caused by genes and curable with "therapy." In the past, the criminal law was imbued with theology; now, it's imbued with psychiatry.
RW: President Bill Clinton is a prime example of how we use different models to describe the same problem. His wife said his problems were due to “emotional problems” in his childhood. His brother said he was a sex addict, because he was a drug addict, himself. And Bill Clinton said it was a sin issue — the religious model. He went to a minister.
TS: That's a good point. But note that Clinton didn't go to a real minister. He went to a politician — Jesse Jackson. His job was to make Clinton look good again. And he did it. Clinton hand-picked him as he did the others, much as a medieval emperor might have hand picked a bishop to make him look good.
RW: Can I shift gears now?
TS: Sure.

Liberty and the Practice of Psychotherapy

RW: You’re known as a libertarian.
TS: Yes, I am a libertarian.
RW: It’s a philosophical view, an economic and political view. What does that mean in terms of practicing psychotherapy?
TS: I'll start at the end, so to speak. If you use language carefully and are serious about libertarianism and psychiatry, then the term "libertarian psychiatrist" is, quite simply, an oxymoron. Libertarianism means that individual liberty is a more important value than mental health, however defined. Liberty is certainly more important than having psychiatrists lock you up to protect you from yourself. Psychiatry stands or falls with coercion, with civil commitment. Non-coercive psychiatry is also an oxymoron. This is one of the main reasons why I never considered myself a psychiatrist — because I always rejected psychiatric coercions.

Now, in term of political philosophy, libertarianism is what, in the 19th century, was called liberalism. Nowadays it's sometimes also called "classical liberalism." It's a political ideology that views the state as an apparatus with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force and hence a danger to individual liberty. Contrariwise, the modern "Liberal" view regards the state as a protector, a benevolent parent who provides security for its citizens as quasi-children. To me, being a libertarian means regarding people as adults, responsible for their behavior; expecting them to support themselves, instead of being supported by the government; expecting them to pay for what they want, instead of getting it from doctors or the state because they need it; it's the old Jeffersonian idea that he who governs least, governs best. The law should protect people in their rights to life, liberty, and property — from other people who want to deprive them of these goods. The law should not protect people from themselves.

This means that, as far as possible, medical care ought to be distributed, economically speaking, as a personal service in the free market. There is much wisdom in the adage, "People pay for what they value, and value what they pay for." It's dangerous to depart too far from this principle.
RW: Why does money necessarily have to come into it? If people have less money, they can’t afford as much as others who have more money. A poor person can benefit from therapy.
TS: Of course. The issue you raise confuses the quest for egalitarianism with the concepts of health or psychotherapy and also with the quest for health. Why should psychotherapy be dispensed in a more egalitarian manner than anything else? Also, people often value things other than health more highly than they value health — such as adventure, danger, excitement, smoking.

Let me elaborate on this. Economists and epidemiologist have shown, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the two variables that correlate most closely with good health are the right to property and individual liberty — the free market. The people who enjoy the best health today are people in the Western capitalist countries and in Japan; and those in the poorest health are the people who enjoyed the blessings of 80 years of paternalistic statist, Communism. In the Soviet Union, where people's political liberty and economic well being were systematically undermined by the state — where they enjoyed "equal misery for all" — life expectancy dropped from more than 70 years to about 55 years. During the same period, in advanced countries, it increased steadily and is now almost 80. And medical care has little to do with it, since Russia had access to medical science and technology. It's primarily a matter of life style — of what used to be called good habits versus bad habits. And of good public health, in the sense of having a safe physical environment.

Psychotherapy, Szasz Style

RW: You wrote, “The Ethics of Psychoanalysis” in 1965. That was your diving into psychotherapy, psychoanalysis. What do you have to say about what is useful in psychotherapy? What theories do you hold to or do you find valuable? When you’re in a free relationship of psychotherapy — simply put, one person helping another with their personal issues — what have you found to be helpful, and what theories have you used in your own work?
TS: You are asking two questions: what did I find useful or interesting and what theories did I use. The kind of therapy one does, if one does it well, in my opinion, is selected and depends primarily on the therapist.
Different people have different temperaments about how to relate to other people. Because the therapeutic relationship is an intimate, human relationship with another human being, the kind of psychotherapy that makes sense to therapists reflects the kind of person they are.
Different people have different temperaments about how to relate to other people. Because the therapeutic relationship is an intimate, human relationship with another human being, the kind of psychotherapy that makes sense to therapists reflects the kind of person they are. In this respect, psychotherapy could not be more different from physical therapies in medicine. The proper treatment of diabetes does not depend, and ought not to depend, on the doctor's personality. It's a matter of medical science. On the other hand, the proper treatment of a person in distress seeking help is a matter of values and personal styles — on the parts of both therapist and patient.

The proper analogies to psychotherapy are not medical treatment but marriage or raising children. How should a man relate to his wife, and vice versa? How do you raise your child? Different people relate differently to their wives or husbands or children. As long as their life style works for them, that's all there is to it. So, first I say that I believe that any kind of so-called "therapy" — any kind of human helping situation that makes sense to both participants and that can be entered and exited and conducted wholly consensually, voluntary, and that is devoid of force and fraud — any and all of that is, by definition, helpful. If it were not helpful, the client wouldn't come and pay for it. The fact that a client returns and pays for what he gets from a therapist is, prima facie evidence for me, that he finds it helpful.

I would compare it, once again, to religion, to going to church. Personally, I'm not religious. But I respect religions and people who find solace in their faith. Millions of persons the world over continue to go to church. They wouldn't be going to church if they didn't find it helpful, assuming they're not just going for purely social reasons, in which case they still find it useful, though not for strictly theological reasons.
RW: What was your initial interest in becoming a psychiatrist?
TS: I was never interested in becoming a psychiatrist and never considered myself a psychiatrist. Psychiatry was a category I had to operate in, given the society in which we live. I was interested in psychotherapy, in what seemed to me the core of the Freudian premise – and promise, which, unfortunately, never materialized as a professional code. Freud and Jung and Adler had a very good idea — that is, that two people, a professional and a client — get together, in a confidential relationship, and the one tries to help the other live his life better. Each of these pioneers emphasized a different aspect of how best to go about this business. There are three aspects to life: the past, the present, and the future.
Freud dwelled on the past, Jung dwelled on the future, and Adler (and Rank) dwelled on the present. All of these make sense. But all this has to be tailored to whether or not it makes sense to the patient.
Freud dwelled on the past, Jung dwelled on the future, and Adler (and Rank) dwelled on the present. All of these make sense. But all this has to be tailored to whether or not it makes sense to the patient.
RW: How does this play out in term of the therapeutic relationship?
TS: The relationship has to be wholly cooperative. The two people may meet only a few times, or they meet many times over many years. The therapist is the patient's agent. This doesn't mean that he must agree with everything the patient believes or wants; far from it. But it means that the therapist is prohibited — by his own moral code — from doing anything against the patient's interest, as the patient defines his interest. That is part of my idea of the contract with the patient. That's why I titled my book, "The Ethics of Psychoanalysis." Therapy is a matter of ethics, not technique.

It was crucial that my patients selected themselves. They came when they wanted; they came to see me, because they wanted to see me, not someone else. And there wasn't any of this business about being "ready" to end therapy. Just as the patient decided when or whether to begin therapy, so he decided when or whether to end therapy. There isn't any of this business that the therapist has to change the patient, or make him better, or control his behavior, or protect him from himself, and so forth. It is up to the patient to change himself. The therapist's job is to help him change in the direction in which the patient wants to change, provided that's acceptable to the therapist. If it's not acceptable, then it is therapist's job to discuss that with the patient and end the relationship.
RW: What are the expectations of the patient then?
TS: The patient doesn't have to do anything except pay. This sounds like a selfish joke. It is not. It is important. It's up to the patient what he or she takes away from the situation. The situation is similar to what happens in school, especially at the university level. If you go to school and have to pay for it, the idea is that you should learn something. But there is no coercion. At the end of it, if you don't learn something, that's your business. It's your loss.
RW: You mentioned that change isn’t a prerequisite, yet most people want some change.
TS: It's not that simple. People want to change and they also don't want to change. The behavior that the patient wants to change must, in some way — this is very Freudian — be also functional for the patient, or else he would already have changed it, without formal therapy. People can and do change themselves.
RW: Adaptive?
TS: Adaptive. Exactly. So-called mental symptoms are rather unlike medical symptoms. A cough, say, if you have pneumonia, is adaptive: it rids the body of mucus and infectious material and tissue debris as sputum. But it's adaptive in this or other similar pathological situation only. It's not adaptive to you as a human being. But a phobia, anxiety, depression, etc. maybe adaptive as some kind of a life strategy, economic or interpersonal strategy.
RW: Your goal for psychotherapy, that is, the fully-functioning human, is to increase their autonomy. You did have that as a goal.
TS: That was my underlying goal, which I communicated [to my clients] as the ethical principle. My premise is that responsibility is, morally speaking, anterior to liberty. So if a person wants to gain more freedom — in relation to his fears, his wife, his work, etc. — he must first assume more responsibility (than he has been) toward them; then he will gain more liberty in relation to them.
The goal is to assume more responsibility and therefore gain more liberty and more control over one's own life.
The goal is to assume more responsibility and therefore gain more liberty and more control over one's own life. The issues or questions for the patient become to what extent is he willing to recognize his evasions of responsibility, often expressed as "symptoms."
RW: That’s a dialogue.
TS: Yes, that is likely to be a focus of the therapeutic dialogue. Actually, some people say they want to do this or that — say stop smoking or be a better parent — but they don't really want to do it, don't want to forego the pleasures of smoking or experience the burdens of caring for a dependent. A person comes to see a therapist and says that he wants to kill himself. Obviously, that's not all he wants. He also wants psychotherapy. In short, people are often ambivalent about basic choices. Ambivalence is not a pathological symptom; it a normal, appropriate mental state of many people, in many situations.
RW: Come back home to therapy, again, you’re not practicing any more?
TS: No, but I did for 45 years.
RW: What was the most difficult and what was the most satisfying for you in working with people one-to-one?
TS: I found practicing therapy very satisfying and not at all arduous. I left Chicago for Syracuse mainly to escape having to fully support myself from doing therapy, which can create financial temptations to make the client dependent on therapy. Of course, everyone who does therapy is likely to say it, but I think a lot of people benefited from having a "conversation" with me.
RW: With all your work in politics and philosophy, your work on psychotherapy is overlooked. That you were in the trenches, helping people, conversing with them.
TS: And many of the people I saw would have been diagnosed as very sick by other people. Some of them would have been diagnosed as psychotic and put on psychiatric drugs.
RW: You never prescribed?
TS: No. Never when practicing psychiatry — psychotherapy —
I never prescribed a drug. I never gave insulin shock or electric shock. I never committed anyone. I never testified in court that a criminal was not responsible for his crimes. I never saw, as a patient, anyone who did not want to see me.
I never prescribed a drug. I never gave insulin shock or electric shock. I never committed anyone. I never testified in court that a criminal was not responsible for his crimes. I never saw, as a patient, anyone who did not want to see me. I went into psychiatry with my eyes wide open. I never viewed psychiatry or psychotherapy as a part of medicine. Perhaps I should add, though it should be obvious, that I had no objections to the patient taking drugs or doing anything else he wanted. As far as I was concerned, things outside the consulting room were not my business — in the sense that if the patient wanted to take drugs, he had to go to a doctor and get them, just as if he wanted a divorce, he had to go to a lawyer.
RW: With the laws today, it’s very hard for a therapist or a psychiatrist to practice psychotherapy. You can shy away from involuntary hospitalization, or other state mandates, or insurance demands, but when push comes to shove, you are pressured to break confidences or end up in trouble.
TS: That's putting it mildly. For all practical purposes, it's impossible. It is the hallmark of totalitarianism that there can be no personal secrets from the state. That's why I call our present political system a "therapeutic state." Such a state is your friend, your benefactor, your doctor. Why should you want to hide anything from it? Keep in mind that it was impossible to do psychotherapy in Soviet Russia, too, or in Nazi Germany. Suppose someone came to you in Nazi Germany and said, "I'm harboring Jews in my cellar." If you did not report that, you ran the risk of being put in a concentration camp and gassed. Today, if you don't report that the patient is suicidal, or homicidal, or a child abuser, among other mandates, you are asking for trouble. So confidential psychotherapy is kaput, finished. Therapists and patients kid themselves that it isn't.

What can you do? Nothing. We have managed to make the free practice of psychotherapy de facto illegal! The psychotherapist has been transformed into a reporting agent, an agent of the state whose job is to betray his patient. Child abuse, drug abuse, violence, suicide — the therapist must stop, must prevent, all these things. The therapist must be a policeman pretending to be therapist. Increasingly, people complain about one or another of these "problems of confidentiality," but they don't see the larger picture. They don't see that this has to do with the alliance of psychiatry and psychotherapy with the state, replicating the alliance of church and state and all its implications.
RW: Even more so, when people go to a therapist who’s working under managed care, they have to have enough problems to get in the door to see the therapist and talk, or get drugs, but not too many problems. If they have too many problems they’re seen as “chronic” and they can’t get help. Do you think a therapist working under managed care is able to freely practice psychotherapy? Is the client free to work in psychotherapy?
TS: Psychotherapy under managed care is a bad joke. It's like religion under managed care, or education under managed care. Even medical care gets complicated and contaminated if the direct relationship between doctor and patient is disrupted by the input of third parties, if the patient doesn't, in some form, pay for what he gets, and if he can't get what he wants with the money he pays.

Modern psychotherapy is based on psychoanalysis, and the psychoanalytic relationship was based on the relationship between priest and penitent in the confessional. The crux of the confessional is self-accusation on the part of the penitent, and the secure promise, by the priest, that the confession he hears will and can have no consequences for the self-accuser in this world (but only in the next). A priest hearing confession and working as a spy for the state would be a moral obscenity. Not in the darkest days of totalitarianism did such a thing occur.

The same thing is true for psychotherapy based on confidentiality and on the premise that the patient "accuses" himself in the hope that, by so doing and with the help of the therapist, he might be able to change himself.
What is truly ugly about psychotherapy today is that many patients labor under the false belief that what they say to the therapist is confidential
What is truly ugly about psychotherapy today is that many patients labor under the false belief that what they say to the therapist is confidential, and that therapists do not tell patients, up front, that if they utter certain thought and words, the therapist will report them to the appropriate authorities, they may be deprived of liberty, of their job, of their good names, and so forth.

Now, it should be clear that to place psychotherapy under the control of an insurance company or the state — that's just heaping nonsense upon nonsense. We can still call it psychotherapy, and we can treat it as if doing psychotherapy, "curing souls," were in principle no different from doing orthopedic surgery, setting a fractured bone. But, psychotherapy is like going to church. You go there voluntarily for a certain kind of service from a certain person. And it's spiritual. It's not physical.
RW: We only have a couple of minutes left. I want to ask you one or two more questions. It was a pleasure to talk about your therapy, because you get very little chance to talk about that work given the vitriol surrounding many of your views.
TS: Thank you.

Critics and Heroes

RW: You’ve had a lot of critics in your career.
TS: You can say that again!
RW: Maybe an enormous amount! In your book, Insanity, you point out all the critics.
TS: Not all of them!
RW: You couldn’t mention all of them?
TS: No. Just a few (laughter).
RW: How do you deal with this? You’re one of the most criticized psychiatrists in history, perhaps. I don’t know anybody else who’s as criticized as you are.
TS: I was very fortunate. I had very good parents, a very good brother, a very good education as a child in Budapest. I have very fine children, good friends, good health, good habits, a fair amount of intelligence. Really, I have always felt blessed. It also helped at lot that I felt there were many people who agreed with me — that what I'm simply saying is simply 2 + 2 = 4 — but that many people are afraid to say this when it is personally and politically improvident to do so. I haven't made any scientific discoveries. I'm simply saying that if you are white and don't like blacks, or vice versa, that's not a disease, it's a prejudice.
If you're in a building that you can't get out of, that's not a hospital, it's a prison.
If you're in a building that you can't get out of, that's not a hospital, it's a prison. I don't care how many people call racism an illness or involuntary mental hospitalization a treatment.
RW: Did the criticism ever get you down?
TS: Of course it did, especially when people actually wanted to injure me — personally, professionally, legally. No need to get into that. I tried to protect myself and escaped, luckily enough. I found boundless support in literature, in the great writers. Ibsen said, among other things, that "the compact majority is always wrong."
RW: My last question. In addition to being criticized a great deal, you are also somewhat of a hero to a lot of people, in what you’ve fought for, liberty, individual rights, and increased freedoms with responsibility. Who are the your heroes, since childhood and now?
TS: Where should I start, there are many? Shakespeare, Goethe, Adam Smith, Jefferson, Madison, John Stuart Mill, Mark Twain, Mencken. Tolstoy, Dostoyevski, Chekhov. Orwell, C.S. Lewis. Ludwig von Mises, F.A. Hayek. Camus and Sartre, though personally and politically, he is rather despicable. He was a Communist sympathizer. He was willing to overlook the Gulag. But he was very insightful into the human condition. His autobiography is superb. His book on anti-Semitism is important.
RW: Camus challenged him.
TS: Yes, Camus broke with him, mainly about politics. Camus was a much better person, a much more admirable human being. He was also a terrific writer.
RW: We could go on about how each of them influenced you, I am sure of it, another day perhaps. I want to thank you for being with us today. I am sure our readers will appreciate your candor.
TS: Thank you.

Ernest Rossi on Mind-Body Therapy

Breakthroughs in Mind-Body Research

Rebecca Aponte: As students of psychology and psychotherapy, we think and read and talk a lot about the mind—perception and memory, identity, and cognition. Can you convince me that it’s important in psychotherapy to think about the body?
Ernest Rossi: You say you want me to talk about the importance of the body? Wow. About time somebody asked. Well, ours is a fantastic generation. We've discovered what the mind-body connection is really all about. This comes from the middle 1990's—neuroscience found that experiences of novelty, enrichment, exercise, both mental and physical, turn on activity-dependent gene expression, and that turns on brain plasticity, modulates the immune system, and activates stem cells throughout the body. And we've just completed a study, published last year for the first time—we used DNA microarrays to evaluate therapeutic hypnosis in psychotherapy. For the first time, we've established that therapeutic hypnosis in psychotherapy does change gene expression—specifically activity-dependent or experience-dependent gene expression.
RA: What are DNA microarrays?
ER: DNA microarrays are a new genomic technique of measuring in a single test with a few drops of blood (or other body fluids) all the genes that are being expressed in a moment of time. Our Italian-American team was the first to use DNA microarrays to determine a "molecular-genomic signature" (something like a genetic fingerprint) of therapeutic hypnosis. Other researchers have also used DNA microarrays and found that meditation, music, and Qi Gong can also turn on experience-dependent gene expression.

PTSD also turns on gene expression; we are now exploring which therapeutic techniques are most effective in turning off the genes that are turned on by PTSD as well as other psychiatric diagnostic categories like anxiety, depression, and so forth. The most exciting aspect of this research that relates psychological states to experience-dependent gene expression is that it bridges the so-called "Cartesian gap" between mind and body! I believe DNA microarray research together with innovative bioinformatic software is a new way of defining and identifying any psychological state – including creative states associated with live, here-and-now experiences of art, beauty, and truth. A variety of my books and papers that discuss this new neuroscience worldview can be found on my website at http://www.ernestrossi.com.

So
for the first time in our generation we're seeing the whole connection—mind, thoughts, feelings.
for the first time in our generation we're seeing the whole connection—mind, thoughts, feelings. Excitement turns on our genes in our brain and our body and immune system. Those genes make proteins, and in the brain, those proteins make new synaptic connections, turn on stem cells, and create new neural networks, which now create new thoughts. So we've got the complete circle. The Cartesian gap between mind and body no longer exists.

Humble Beginnings

RA: It’s so interesting to see you light up like that when you talk about it. Of course, our readers won’t be able to see that unless they’ve seen you on a video—but what is it that makes you light up about it like that?
ER: Well, I'm just a little guy. My father immigrated to this country in '06, never went beyond the eighth grade; same with my mother. As a child, I was fascinated with chemistry—wine. My father's Italian. He'd make wine in the cellar. He'd crush the grapes and then he'd make a ferment. The fumes were so strong I'd go down there, get drunk, and almost fall down the stairs. "What is that?" I wanted to know.

My father used to have these little bottles of flavoring for wines and liquor. He also made and sold veterinary medicines the farmers loved. We had shelves all around our cellar, stocked with drugs and mysterious balms and pharmaceuticals. So as a little boy my first toys were those empty little bottles. I'd fill them with water and I'd try to make colors. But my parents indentured me to the local shoe repairman. At seven I went to work after school everyday, learning how to become a shoe repairman. But it got boring after a while.
RA: Yeah, I can imagine.
ER: On the way home from school, I would pass this little library. I'd go in and start browsing in the books. I fell in love with fairy tales, myths, until one day I finished all the books in the children's section, and I was terribly sad. Then I idly noticed in another section of books—they were adult books, they weren't for me—but one of them had little lightning bolt on the back binding, and I said, "Ah, must be a fairy tale book." I picked it up: Electricity for Young Boys. I opened it up and it was a little book about Tesla coils, electricity, and how to make sparks come out of magnets—for young boys to make experiments. So to make a long story short, I did all those experiments.
I was a little physicist. I made little radios. I used my tips from my shoeshine to buy my first chemistry set.
I was a little physicist. I made little radios. I used my tips from my shoeshine to buy my first chemistry set. In the eighth grade I was so proficient that on the last day of school, we'd all lined up ready to file in for graduation, and just to celebrate with great exuberance, I set off one of my homemade bombs. It went, Boom! Kids went flying, dogs jumped around. The teachers expelled me the last day of school.
RA: The last day of eighth grade you were expelled?
ER: I had perfect attendance for eight years. The last day of school they expelled me. My mother had to go in and see the principal.
RA: So then what happened?
ER: Well, I was never a very great student academically because I spoke Italian, you know—we came from an impoverished home. But nonetheless, I continued my library readings so that by the time I went to high school downtown… That's another nice story. Let me tell you the story.

All the kids would take the buses downtown where the big school was. It was on Main Street in Bridgeport, Connecticut. The bus stopped, all the kids rolled out, and now our archetypal situation manifested itself. All the smart kids who were planning to go to college went up the hill to Central High. All the dumb kids destined for trade school went down the street to an industrial area where there was a trade school for industrial workers, for kids like me. Well, I was enrolled to go to the trade school, but as luck would have it, I was in love with Beverly Slavsky. She didn't know it, of course. My first day, she rushed out in her beautiful flouncing skirts with all her friends and jabbering, and they started walking up to high school.
RA: And away from you.
ER: I started to look across Main Street where I had to cross to go down, and I took one long, lingering look, and I saw her with her flouncing skirts and happy faces. I said, "Damn it," and I just followed her. I followed her right up to high school. She didn't know me from Adam.

I followed what the kids did—they went to the auditorium where they had to go toward their names. When it came to me they said, "We don't have your name here." I said, "You don't have my name here? Oh, I guess there must be some mistake, huh?" And they said, "Oh, yes, there must be an error. Well, let me take down your name, Ernest." And that's all I heard of it.

So I registered in regular high school. My parents didn't know it.
All hell broke out three months later when the first report card came out. "You're going to high school! You're not going to trade school! What are you, crazy?"
All hell broke out three months later when the first report card came out. "You're going to high school! You're not going to trade school! What are you, crazy?" How was I going to earn a living? But I stuck. I eventually did date Beverly the last year of high school.

RA: So the story has something of a happy ending.
ER: Yeah. We went for a bike ride. But the unhappy part is I was so shy, all I could talk to her about is how I wished I had a dog and stuff like that.
RA:

A Secret Weapon

ER: In high school I was still working for the shoe repairman, but by this time my tastes had become more academic. I discovered in the libraries all about fairy tales, electricity and chemistry, so I was a little genius making my chemistry. I didn't always make bombs. I made radios and electric vacuum tubes. I was a real little protégé. I didn't know it—I thought it was just natural. But I would go to the library for these technical books on electricity and eventually mathematics. And I discovered yoga. Boy, what a story that is.

So now I was maybe twelve or thirteen. And I was reading all of these yoga books and I felt I was dumb, especially compared to Beverly Slavsky. I wasn't really so dumb—I was like a C student—but she was more than just pretty skirts. I saw one day next to the yoga books—it must have been the philosophy section—a book by Immanuel Kant,The Critique of Pure Reason. I thought, "That book is going to teach me how to reason." So I picked up The Critique of Pure Reason, not knowing who Immanuel Kant was. And I began studying that book. It was very hard to read, and you know how dense the Germanic prose is, especially in translation. So for years through high school I was just a mediocre student, but I was reading Immanuel Kant and then many of the classics in physics and early mathematics. None of it applied to my school, though, so I never got good grades.

By this time I also had a newspaper route, so I had to get up at four o' clock in the morning, fighting the snow in Connecticut. It was terrible. And what I would do is I would get up and sit in a lotus posture in my bed. I'd read about the experiments of the yogis, how they did mind-body things, miracles. And by this time I was in love with Janet Tallcouch. I went to my mother one day as she was stirring the soup. I said, "What color are my eyes, Ma?" I knew Janet would look into my eyes, and I couldn't tell what color my eyes were. "Your eyes? Your eyes are shit-brown," and she shrugged. Completely crushed, I went to the mirror. My god, how did I not notice that they were shit-brown! It was worse with the black spots, and there were even green spots—really terrible. So I continued my meditation. Then it occurred to me in my yogic meditations that maybe I could change the color of my eyes so Janet, when she looked at me, would fall in love with me. So I looked at my eyes: "Well, the green is nice. What if I could change my eyes from shit-brown to green? There already is a little green there." So I decided that I would sit in my yoga posture at four o' clock in the morning, just before I had to go out to deliver papers, and say, "Green eyes, green eyes, Ernie has green eyes." And I did that every morning, I don't know for how long—maybe half a year or so. But like kids will, you forget about it.
RA: Right. So eventually this accumulation of knowledge and the discovery of yoga opened your eyes to the mind-body connection?
ER: I really believed all those miracles of yogis. This was the beginning of my interest in higher consciousness.

Meanwhile, graduation time came, and there was no chance for me to go to college—I was a C student. But nonetheless, as luck would have it, my parents went to Italy for a visit for the first time in their lives, just around graduation time. So to make a long story short, I asked my grandfather to loan me 25 dollars so I could take the college entrance exam. He said, "You, Jack?" He called me Jack—it was short for jackass. It was my childhood name.

"Yeah, I want to take them."

"What the heck." So they loaned me the 25 dollars, I took the exam, and I did so well. What happened was that on the exam they had reading comprehension. Soon we hit those paragraphs where you have to read, then check off A, B, C, or D. It was a miracle: all those paragraphs I studied in Immanuel Kant, there they were! I didn't bother reading the paragraph. I just looked at the answers, and well, check, check. Looked to the next one—check, check. I went through the whole section, just rapidly clicking off the answers without even reading. I thought, "Oh my god, this is crazy." And I'd go back and I started to read some of them, but yeah, it was all correct, so I put that aside and I went on to the next thing. So I really had a secret cheat sheet.

So I got a scholarship to college. And that started a pattern. By the time I got to college I'd done all my studying in chemistry. I went to pharmacy school. I hardly had to go to take the exams because I already knew all that stuff.

But we have to get back to the yoga. So now I was in college for the first time, in a fraternity. In fraternities the first thing they do is set you up on blind dates with the sorority. I really never had a date except for Beverly Slavsky and that bike ride. So I have a date with a lovely young thing. We meet, and she's in beautiful flouncing skirts, and she's kind of short, and she looks up at me. "Oh, Ernest. What beautiful green eyes you have." Green eyes! I hadn't looked at my eyes since the shit…
RA: You had completely forgotten about the green eyes.
ER: Forgot it. After the date, I went and looked at my eyes, and they are kind of green.
RA: Yes.
ER: I think a little greener than yours, as a matter of fact.
RA: I think so.
ER: Now, did I change my eye color? I don't know. It might have been a natural thing. My father had brown eyes, my mother had blue—who knows.

Introduction to Mental Chemistry

RA:
ER: But you asked a question—how did I get interested in body and mind?
RA: Right.
ER: You see, I went to pharmacy school. And there I was clearly outstanding, and so now I got scholarships to go to graduate school. And there again I was pretty good, but I was neurotic—I still wasn't dating girls. So one day while I was working in the pharmacy department to earn some money,
a fellow graduate student in psychology gave me Freud'sInterpretation of Dreams. And that book completely knocked me out cold.
a fellow graduate student in psychology gave me Freud'sInterpretation of Dreams. And that book completely knocked me out cold. I saw suddenly, this was mental chemistry. I loved all that. My first book turned out to be about dreams too.

I immediately decided to switch into psychology, and of course in psychology they welcomed me with open arms—I was a scholarship student, and had all this good physical chemistry background. So that's how it continued. I got my first degree in psychology, then my PhD. I landed a U.S. public health postdoctoral with Franz Alexander, this famous psychoanalyst out here on the West Coast, so I studied with him two years. And of course he was a profound gentlemanly scholar.

Now that I'd got my postdoctoral done, I had my first proper office in the Berkeley hills, and one of my first clients was this elderly schoolteacher. What was his problem? Sexual impotence. So I worked with his dreams, and by this time I was writing my own dream book, and he thought I was very clever. After a couple sessions, he was improving. And he'd walk out of the office, and he'd wink at me. I thought, What the hell's happening that he would wink at me? So I asked him the next day, "What is all this winking at me as you leave?" And he tells me, "Oh, I know what you're doing. You pretend to be interested in my dreams but you're using hypnosis on me, aren't you?" I never said hypnosis. In short, he had Haley's early book on selected pages of Milton H. Erickson. He loaned it to me. He said, "You pretend to be interested in my dreams, but as I talk about my dreams I get sleepy, and you're hypnotizing me. That's how you're curing my impotence, and it's working."
RA: Were you working with the body back then too, or was this strictly talk therapy?
ER: No, I was just working with dreams. I was trained as a Freudian analyst. While I was getting my PhD in the daytime, I secretly went to a psychoanalytic institute at night. Of course, you can't tell that to the academic people—they'dfire you! But my client gave me that book, the selected papers of Erickson. I took it home, and it was a weekend and I began reading it. Actually, this is a different one but this is my own copy [pulls book off of bookshelf]. I bought this when it was new. You'll see notes on just about…
RA: Oh my god. It’s tattered!
ER: Look, can I find a page where there aren't notes? Let me see how enamored I was of Milton H. Erickson, making these notes…
RA: What was it about hypnosis? Is there something about it that speaks to that mind-body connection?
ER: Exactly. I was so taken up with this that I read it all. I had a wife and two lovely little girls at this time. I read it all that Friday night. Saturday, I still was buried in the book. My wife went out with the kids to the park. She came back and said, "You're still reading that?!" I said, "Yes, yes, yes, I've got to finish this." I read all Saturday night. Sunday came around—I was still reading the book. My wife was beginning to think this was crazy. Finally, Sunday night, I was lying in bed next to my beautiful, lovely wife, and I was still reading the book. I wanted to put the book down, so I said, "Okay, I just want to finish this paragraph." Finally I felt a pain in my stomach, and I just dropped off to sleep. Next day I had a hot poker in my stomach.

A couple days later I went to a doctor. He said, "What are you doing, Ernest? Stop whatever you're doing. You're giving yourself an ulcer." Now I had an ulcer. I needed a cure for my ulcer. Who could I call? Milton H. Erickson.

So I called Erickson. He said, "Well, sure, you can see me." I told him I'd written a book. He said, "Okay, you mail me the book." So within a couple weeks I drove eight hours from California to Milton's office in Phoenix, and he began working with me. We had about four or five sessions like that. But on the drives there and back, I would start to write papers in my mind, because every time I left Erickson's office, I went into my car and wrote down everything I thought he said and what the hypnosis was.

Finally, he looked at me quizzically one day.
He was this gnarled little man in purple robes and paralyzed, mostly. Finally he wagged his head. "You aren't a real patient, are you?" He found me out.
He was this gnarled little man in purple robes and paralyzed, mostly. Finally he wagged his head. "You aren't a real patient, are you?" He found me out. So I said, "Aw, yeah, when I go out I write down everything you say. And I drive home and I'm starting to write papers in my mind with you, Dr. Erickson." He wanted to know what those papers were, so I explained. I really had about four or five in my mind. He said, "Okay. I want you to write those papers. But I want you to remember one thing. On those papers, I will be the senior author and you will be the junior author, because I am your senior, you know!" You think of Milton H. Erickson, the lovely old man. But he had a little bite to him.
RA: Oh, yes. I’ve heard stories. Now when you had those initial sessions with him, was he talking about dreams with you?
ER: No, he just did hypnosis. And there came this day when he had this conversation. All this time my first book, Dreams and the Growth of Personality, was sitting between us. Erickson had this little office, about eight by eight. So he's sitting here, I'm sitting there, and this book was right on the corner of the desk, right between us. We went through four or five sessions with that book just being there, closed. I knew it was my book, but he never said anything, I never said anything, until finally, one day when I was walking out the door, I looked back at him shyly, and I felt now I had license. "Oh, by the way, my book's there. Did you look at it, Dr. Erickson?"

He turned, slowly looked at the book, as if he'd never seen it before. "Oh." He looked at me. By this time I had the door half open, just about to step out. He looked up at me. "Well, it's kind of elementary, isn't it?"
RA: Ouch.
ER: Bang! I closed the door. I didn't mean to bang it. I just banged the damn thing. Went home and I started writing the papers. But you know, he's a master of one-upmanship—rousing that expectation having that book right there, until I finally have to ask him, and then he's in the up position.
RA: Of course.
ER: And then, "It's rather elementary." I thought it was the latest thing since Freud, obviously. But "kind of elementary."

Novelty, Numinosum and Neurogenesis

RA: Shifting gears a little bit to the present, I read something recently that you wrote about dreams and constructed memory.
ER: Yes, I got a prize for that.
RA: Excellent. Can you explain what constructed memory means?
ER: Yes. The classic theory of memory, of course, is that memory is to recall the past. This is the basis of psychoanalysis: as you recall the past, you hit upon sources of stressful memories, you go into catharsis, cry and weep, and that catharsis leads to healing. Same thing with hypnosis. All the classic books of Pierre Janet, the 1880's classic, all case histories of how therapeutic hypnosis is used to access memory, you get those early troublesome memories, and, ah… suddenly their symptoms disappear! And I had some success with that, working the psychoanalytic mode. I also shifted later and became a Jungian analyst, where there's more of a focus on consciousness. But it wasn't until the 1990's that neuroscientists created a new theory, which I talk about in that paper. The new theory is that,
although the very word "memory" means from the past, really these functions of memory, from an evolutionary perspective, are actually tools, resources that evolution selected for to help you create dreams, and in the dreams you create a better future.
although the very word "memory" means from the past, really these functions of memory, from an evolutionary perspective, are actually tools, resources that evolution selected for to help you create dreams, and in the dreams you create a better future.
RA: So it’s using memories of things that have actually happened, but applying them to novel situations in a dream?
ER: Yes. In the 1970's I wrote a couple papers on dreams. I proposed the theory that dreams are tapping our RNA and they're making the proteins that lead to new structures of the mind. That idea was floating around someplace. Neuroscientists were discovering that when they give a rat a rich environment, the brain's actually heavier. Why? Because it has more proteins, and proteins are the heaviest part of the body. So there was the idea that RNA was somehow related to neural activity. So in that first paper I proposed half a dozen lines of things that could really investigate this hypothesis. It wasn't until 20 years later—1995, 96, 97—that neuroscientists actually established that enriching life experiences turn on genes in our brain and those genes make the proteins for the new neural networks for presumably new levels of consciousness.
RA: Can constructed memories act as enriching life experiences in such a way that they activate the genes that lead to new neural pathways in the brain—in the way that neuroscientists now understand waking events to do?
ER: I certainly believe this will be true. But no one has tested this possibility yet, as far as I am aware.
RA: Now, for therapists who don’t have a strong science background like you do, how can they harness that?
ER: That's what I'm working on day and night. Most of my books—for example, The Psychobiology of Gene Expression, orA Discourse with our Genes—really, these are terrible titles. Most psychotherapists don't pick it up because it looks like biology. But it's not biology—it's the connection between psychology and biology, and now psychology and gene expression.

The important thing to recognize is that this innovative bioinformatic field of research with DNA microarrays, which I now call "psychosocial genomics,"is helping us break out of the limitations of the cognitive-behavioral worldview that has dominated psychology and psychotherapy over the past generation. Every time a client enters your consulting room and sits within arm's length of you—that simple act of behavior and positive expectation turns on your mirror neurons, experience-dependent gene expression, and the possibility of creative brain plasticity.
If you have an interesting session that engages your client's sense of wonder, novelty, fascination, enrichment etc.—what I call the "Novelty-Numinosum-Neurogenesis Effect"—that actually evokes heightened consciousness and neural activation to facilitate brain plasticity.
If you have an interesting session that engages your client's sense of wonder, novelty, fascination, enrichment etc.—what I call the "Novelty-Numinosum-Neurogenesis Effect"—that actually evokes heightened consciousness and neural activation to facilitate brain plasticity. We no longer presume to "analyze" and "interpret" or "suggest" things to our clients! That's really an impossible task. How could even the wisest therapist hope to accomplish that—with billions of neurons and synaptic connections changing every microsecond within our clients? Rather, psychotherapists help people access their sense of awe and wonder to heighten their consciousness and neurons to evoke "experience-dependent gene expression and brain plasticity" so people can provide themselves with the kind of self-care and self-direction that only they are sensitive enough to perceive and modulate appropriately with their own behavioral self-prescriptions. This is rather a different point of view of what psychology and psychotherapy is all about, is it not?
RA: And this is the very mind-body connection that’s always fascinated me.
ER: So finally we found the truth, the real signs of mind-body connection. But you see, I'm still governed by the primacy of molecules, so I'm very proud of my books. The Psychobiology of Gene Expression—wow, what profound ideas!
RA: The names might scare away the biologists and the psychologists.
ER: It falls between the cracks and gets lost.
RA: Right.
ER: So this is why I'm so enthusiastic. I'm that little kid who studied this way back with yoga, you know, when he was 12, 13, and then again as I became a young man in my late twenties and thirties. So I've done a lot of original thinking in this area. My books are very highly respected, but they're not exactly bestsellers, because psychologists still think of me… Well, they don't think of me!

There's an article, "Art, Beauty and Truth," where I talk about how experiences of art, beauty and truth are turning on gene expression, brain plasticity, and new levels of consciousness. Evolution has selected for states of consciousness that are very aware of any change in environment, because that has survival value. Someone like Richard Dawkins, a neo-Freudian, talks about sexual selection, the mechanism of evolution in which a female bird, for example, finds males with a little bit of color in their tail attractive because that color detail means it's a healthy male and it's going to have better babies and so forth. So females will select more and more of males that have those tails, and this evolves into the peacocks.

So sexual selection is one of the dominant modern theories of evolution. But what I'm formulating is consciousness selection, and it has the basis in this new neuroscience that says evolution has a survival mechanism, and that's being sensitive to any changes in your environment, because it could be dangerous or it could be good food and so forth. This is the "Novelty-Numinosum-Neurogenesis effect." Anything that's novel turns on your genes, fixes your attention, and gives you a certain emotion, and that's what Jung called the numinosum. This is where my background as a Jungian analyst comes in.

The numinosum was invented by German theologian Rudolf Allers. He studied all the religions of humankind: was there any common denominator in the experiences of Christ, and Moses, Buddha, Mohamed? He found, yes, they all had a big experience: Buddha with the waking up in this meditation and realizing the universe and I are one; Moses going up to the mountain and getting the tablets of God, a symbol of consciousness. So Rudolf Allers said, "What is the numinosum? It's the experience of fascination, mysteriousness, and tremendousness." All the major religions of humankind were founded by someone who had, if we rely on historical documents, a big experience of this fascinating, tremendous and mysterious. Well, in my mind, fascination, tremendousness, and mysteriousness are very similar to novelty, enrichment, and exercise. So I put them together. In the humanities they called it art and beauty that fixes our attention—a witness and fixation of attention, but a heightening of consciousness.
Anything that heightens consciousness turns on gene expression and brain plasticity and new neural networks and therefore consciousness.
Anything that heightens consciousness turns on gene expression and brain plasticity and new neural networks and therefore consciousness.

And this is what I try to write about in my books, but I'm always trying to bring the evidence, and half the evidence is in biology and half is in the humanities—Jung, visions, the spiritual. Even today, I just wrote a chapter of a prolegomenon to the philosophy of evolution. A bunch of philosophers in India are writing this book. I give them workshops, they hear about me, so they invite me to make a contribution, and my contribution is: what does neuroscience have to offer philosophy?—a new view of what the human condition is. So in that paper, which will be out later this year, I hope, I lay out this theory of art, truth, and beauty. From the humanities to numinosum, from all the spiritual humanistic literature to the neuroscientists' novelty, excitement, enrichment, activity—they're all one, I'm saying. So this is how I integrate all of the humanities and sciences.


RA: That’s great. There’s a current trend right now where therapists are starting to use the language of the brain and biology, referring to the limbic system and so forth. Maybe some of these therapists don’t have a great fundamental knowledge in science…
ER: They're still using neuroscience, and neuroscience merges into genomics and the new field that I've created called psychosocial genomics. So most psychologists think that they're doing great with neuroscience. That is wonderful. But there's still this other level, the genomic level. They're interested in neurons. Well, how do you get new neurons? I had a stroke—I've had an experience of it. Your neurons die. When there is any injury to cells in a tissue, those cells send out emergency messenger molecules that signal neighboring stem cells to turn on gene expression that will generate the new proteins that are needed for the stem cell to differentiate, that is, mature into new cells that will replace the injured and dying cells. This is how normal wound healing and rehabilitation take place in the brain and body.

Of particular interest to psychotherapists is that the new neurons that develop in response to brain trauma and stress require about four weeks to evolve from stem cells in the hippocampus of the human brain where memory and learning are encoded. It then takes another three or four months for these new neurons to become fully functional. That's just about the time required for "brief psychotherapy!" Recent neuroscience research demonstrated that these new neurons encode the most refined nuances of new learning. I hypothesize that the new consciousness and ineffable states of being are also encoded by these sensitive young neurons. They are the source of all original art, beauty, and truth!

A New Theory of Art and Beauty

RA: It’s interesting that you mention that the things that we love—art and beauty and truth—we’re naturally drawn to.
ER: Yes, why do we love them? Evolution has selected art, truth and beauty, anything that heightens our consciousness, I mean,
even a bird will pick up a bright-colored stone hoping to attract a female bird. Anything bright that sparkles turns on your senses.
even a bird will pick up a bright-colored stone hoping to attract a female bird. Anything bright that sparkles turns on your senses. So this is a new theory of art and beauty—it's a new theory of aesthetics. What do the arts and sciences have in common? You have all these talking heads, "Oh, art is just like the sciences." Now they're saying, "What they have in common is a sense of wonder." Wonder motivates the scientists just as it does the humanistics. It is wonder of the transcendent god that is really the most sophisticated. Nobody believes there's a god in heaven, but they believe in a transcendent god. And how do we know but because we have a sense of wonder that goes beyond our experience, our empirical experience. And so once again they're trying to keep these fields separate.

I'm saying, "Dumbbell, the sense of wonder is like fascination—it turns on the genes that makes new neural networks. And as it makes these new neurons, it pours out young hormones, making you feel good." So evolution has selected for a sense of wonder, and yet the very ultra-conservative, not too well educated, I'm afraid, or religious would say, "The wonder goes beyond science. And that's the spirit and soul." Give me a break!
RA: Do you suggest that exposing ourselves to new experiences is a way to keep our brains young and to maximize our neurological regenerative capacities? Is this something you would advocate for the general population?
ER: Yes, and for the general population there is a new industry of computerized games of skill to choose from. I also see this as the essential function of the psychotherapist. We optimize experience-dependent gene expression and brain plasticity by facilitating novel and numinous states of heightened consciousness and creativity that actually keep us young with the new neurons such interesting experiences tend to evoke. This is what I do! I'm always searching for the most numinous and fascinating experiences my clients have in dreams and fantasies as well as real life. How can I encourage people to have the courage (and good sense) to go with their bliss—whatever their growing edge may be? That is always the central question and focus of my creative approaches to psychotherapy.
RA: Now, in the way that we’re naturally drawn to art—we don’t know what it’s doing for us, but we’re drawn anyway.
ER: Yes, exactly—because it's intriguing, it's novel, it's different. It leaves you with a profound "I don't know. What is this, what is this, what is this?" And your focusing, and that "What is it? What is this?"—that's turning on gene plasticity and new neural networks.

An Exercise in Curiosity

RA: Since most therapists don’t have the background that you have in hypnosis and chemistry, is there a way that they’re still getting to the right end without knowing it?
ER: Yeah, I think so. With hypnosis, there's a sense of wonder, for example. The very concept of the unconscious—it's mysterious, it's strange. The whole theory of archetypes and so forth. Study mythology and you get the underlying patterns of human behavior, and you'll see all the metaphors. Certain Jungian analysts, for example, are still in the thirteenth century: "Alchemy, alchemy, alchemy." They don't know there's a new alchemy called DNA today. But I'm developing what I call the activity–or experience–dependent exercises for hypnotic induction, only I don't call it hypnotic induction unless the person believes that nonsense.

But I will say, for example, "Look at those hands almost as if you've never seen them before." Just that simple thing starts to pull for a dissociation. "Look at my hands almost as if I've never…" starts stimulating a sense of wonder—the beginning of the four-stage creative process. Leonardo da Vinci called it curiosity. The mother of science is data collection—you've got to collect data. But it's the "I don't know" that leads to wonder and those first two stages. And when you start wondering, inevitably in every creative process, you hit the middle stage or stage two: despair. See, smoke is coming out of his head. His brain is overheated. He has activity-dependent gene expression that's being turned on by this "I don't know." He doesn't know how to do it. But the very "I don't know" starts the mind wondering, and he actually gets pink in the face until that stimulates the neurons stimulating the different connections, until, "Ah!" Stage three: he gets a new idea. He drops his pencil. Every artist, every scientist talks about their creative process. They always talk about the struggle. Have you ever seen a movie where there wasn't a problem in the beginning? All love songs, what are they about? All operas? There's always a problem. Lovers can't get together. So this is the common feature of curiosity: "I don't know—how am I going to solve this problem?" So this is a hook. Every day we go through this process. You're asking me questions, you're trying to learn something, right?
RA: Right.
ER: You get the new idea, and then, "Ah." It's like magic. "Why didn't I think of this before? It's so simple!" That's what I'm saying: it's so simple.
RA: You call that stage “verification.” Is that your cerebral cortex verifying what your body knows?
ER: Yes. You have to go in and do the experiments, you have to verify the equation, write the musical.
RA: Right. That makes me wonder—as someone who focuses on the mind and body the way you do, if you teach a client how to look inside and feel curious about themselves, how do you help them integrate it to their life?
ER: I've got what I call the creative psychosocial genomic healing experience. I've actually got a scale so that I can teach it to other therapists. It's what I tried to show you with the hands. The typical thing is: What's your problem? You don't even have to tell me what your problem is, okay? Just look at those hands and tell me, which hand seems a little warmer or cooler? Lighter or heavier? And people start actually getting the sense. And then I move on to: Which hand would be more like your mother? Which would be more like your father? Now, no hand is really your mother or your father, yet most people will say, "Well, this would be my mother. Yeah, this would be my father." Then I go on: Which hand is more like you as you are here today, and which is more like you as a child? Can you tell me that right now?
RA: Yes. This one is more like me. And my left is more like me as a child.
ER: Of course, you're having a hallucination. But yet I do believe for processes in your brain that you're projecting into your hands. So we get the brain, the mind, out into observable behavior. And now I can ask a whole series of questions of how that child and the adult are going to get together for a mutual benefit. But you see, already, was this a hypnotic induction I've done on you? You said, "This is the child and this is me." That is it. It works that quickly.

So we can say, "Oh, Rossi's turned into a Gestalt therapist." Yeah, I worked with Fritz Perls, but instead of putting the mother out in the chair, I put it in your hands. Or if not your hands—I got some people who have crippled hands, so I said, "Are you more in your head or your heart? Which is more like you today, your head or your heart? Which is the child?" So you see, I can take different parts of the body. The value of using the body instead of out-there projection like Fritz did is that you immediately get sensory feedback from your hands. And this is what our research has shown—these processes turn off immune system dysfunction, tend to turn off molecular oxidation at the genomic level, and tend to turn on stem cell activity for healing.

And we have practical techniques. These are the techniques that we used for that study. So we published the first DNA study showing that these psychological techniques, this little simple thing you're doing, is affecting you at the genomic level. That's the new exciting thing.

The Opposite

RA: Is there any type of client that this wouldn’t work for?
ER: Yes. Some people just don't get it, like the Marlboro man. You know what I mean? The ones don't know how to introspect. I've had men come in here, beautiful types, and they put out their hands, and I can see immediately they don't. I say the things that I say to you and they stare at their hands. They stare up at me. They look down. They're waiting for lightning to strike. What happened to you? It took you less than a minute. They don't have your sensitivity. You've got wonderful introspective powers. Did you know that?
RA: I did know that.
ER: A lot of people, actors, most people in the humanities—you're into literature, you're into writing, you're a journalist or a psychologist. We have good mirror neurons, not only for picking up on the outside, but what's going on inside.
RA: Are there specific challenges with this technique if you’re working with trauma?
ER: Trauma are my best clients because whatever the trauma is, I can say, "Which hand would be the hand that's experiencing the trauma?" And they say, "Oh, this one." I say, "Good. Continue experiencing. Now, what do you experience in the other hand that's the opposite of the trauma? You don't even have to tell me."
What's the opposite of every trauma? It's got to be inner resources that can heal the trauma.
What's the opposite of every trauma? It's got to be inner resources that can heal the trauma. You don't ask them, "What are the inner resources?" They're going to say, "Yes, yes, I've got them." You just say something simple like, "What's the opposite? If you're feeling your anxiety here, what do you feel in your other hand?"

I can give you an anecdote about how I learned this process maybe 30 years ago. I was working in Malibu at the time. Your classic teensy-weeny little bitty sweet secretary comes in, a first-time client. And what's her problem? "Oh, stress, doctor. Stress, stress." Stress at her job, how terrible her boss is, this that and the other thing. I don't want to admit this, I wouldn't admit it in public—but this particular afternoon, it's getting late, around four o' clock, I'm tired so I'm losing my verbal fluency. So I say, "Can you put your stress in one hand?" And she starts, like you, only she takes her time and I see her sitting back in the couch and I think, "Wow, she's really taking it seriously." So seriously I start becoming interested now. So finally she says, "This hand, Doctor." And I say, "Okay, now, in the other hand… " I'm looking for the word like relaxation or calm, the opposite of the stress, only I'm tired and I stumble. "You know, the opposite of your stress. What's the opposite of your stress you put in the other hand?" I'd never said it that way before.
RA: Open-ended like that?
ER: I always told the patient what to feel here in the second hand, which is what I thought was the opposite. But here, by accident, I happen to say "the opposite." And now I see her look, almost with a hypnotic stare, from her stressed hand to her other hand. And I see her eyes widen, her jaw dropping. At this time I realize she's falling into a trance. And I say, "That's right. Really continuing to receive that as your eyes are getting droopy, continue…" And to make a long story short, finally, both hands go down and she starts to curl up on the couch in a very sweet way. And there's a pillow there and she tucks herself in, and she goes on just quietly in her inner trance. I say nothing until, after about 20, 30, maybe even 40 minutes, she comes to and she looks at me. And I look at her. And suddenly I'm realizing, this is no teeny-weeny little secretary. Actually, I wouldn't want to say it, but this is quite an attractive woman I'm looking at. Well, of course, with the relaxation her face changes her voice. Her pupils are dilated. I just noticed she was very lovely.

As she comes out, she says, "Oh, Doctor, thank you. That's so wonderful. I've never felt so wonderful in all my life." And I pick up my book and am going to start setting up for the next appointment, but before I can ever ask her for the check or anything, she picks up her pocketbook, she opens it, she pulls out her checkbook, says, "Doctor, what is your fee? I'm going to tell all my friends about you. I didn't know psychotherapy could work so wonderfully in just one session." I give her my fee. She writes out the check, hands it to me, and I notice she isn't a bent, fearful secretary. Now she stands—she really is a lovely woman—and she starts walking to the door. I'm thinking she's this lovely creature that's going to leave my life forever. And so just as she's going out the door, I finally am able to say, "Oh, by the way, what was it that was the opposite of the stress?" And she says, "Oh, Doctor, it was wonderful." She looks back. "It was sex, doctor. That was the opposite. Thank you so much." And she closed the door and was out of my life forever. And there I learned, the therapist should not project.

To go back to your question on trauma—what's the main problem in working with traumatized patients?
The big debate in the literature: "Aren't you going to retraumatize your patient when you have them reactivate the memories?" No, I've never retraumatized the patient. Why? Because I never have a person go into the trauma.
The big debate in the literature: "Aren't you going to retraumatize your patient when you have them reactivate the memories?" No, I've never retraumatized the patient. Why? Because I never have a person go into the trauma. As soon as they say, "The trauma's here," before they go any further, I say, "Now, what's in your other hand that's the opposite?" It's going to be invariably something positive even though I don't know what it is. So you see, the typical therapist makes this mistake of just going into the traumatic side, reliving it, and they think reliving it just like Freud's catharsis—and there's some truth to it, it does work pretty good sometimes—but yes, people can get stuck in stage two. They keep reliving. They never jump to stage three.
RA: Right.
ER: But my clients are always in the safety basket of a positive something. It's only part of their mind. The other part of their mind is in their resources and how to deal with it. They go through a psychodrama. Sometimes they don't have to talk about it. So it's a nonverbal psychodrama where they resolve their own problem in their own way. A trauma's coded here, the resources are here, and with this process in projection they're putting together the traumatized part of their brain with the inner resources, even though I don't know what they are.

And they don't know. But they come out with unique solutions. So this is how I can resolve a person's problem without programming, without so-called suggestion.
RA: The traditional hypnotherapy, right?
ER: Yeah. I don't have to use that. It works for 5 or 10 percent of the population wonderfully. But what about the other 95 percent?
RA: Right.
ER: Well, I'm not saying all subjects will do this process, but 80, 90 percent. And those that don't, there's a solution for that. What's the solution? You have to work with them in a group. You give the same instructions to everyone in the group and have everybody go through the process. And then when they're done: "Does anyone want to share? How far did you get in the creative process?" Well, the people who have talent like you will immediately want to say something. They don't have to go into personal detailsAll this work can be done privately. I ask the magic question: "Anything that was surprising, unusual for you?" Because that will pull for stage three. And so they come to surprising, unusual solutions.
RA: So you look for the surprise.
ER: Yes. And now these people who are the untalented will see people all around them coming out with their very simple stories. They do the process again, and now they've learned how to do it.

So psychosocial learning. I don't consider myself a group therapist, but I acknowledge that, yes, the best way to learn these creative processes is in a group where the slow learners can immediately pick up that it's nothing mysterious.

Lighting the Lamps of Human Consciousness

RA: So to wrap up, your work has spanned over 40 years. What do you wish you knew 40 years ago? What would you tell yourself 40 years ago in your career?
ER: The same thing as Joseph Campbell: Follow your own passion. And what was your passion since you were a kid? The mysteriousness of chemistry, transformation—and that became, with the yogis, mental transformation; with the philosophers, philosophical transformation. So now I'm doing the ultimate transformation: I'm learning how mind can impact our gene expression to change our proteins, make new neural networks, immune system—the mind can generate gene expression and brain plasticity. So this is the true alchemy.

But for your question, when I was going to psychoanalytic school, the big word was the unconscious. Catherine interviewed me in a video format, and it was mostly a spontaneous interview like we're having. The title isTherapeutic Hypnosis in Psychotherapy: The New Neuroscience Paradigm. And now we added a subtitle because the very last thing I say in this video is, "In other words, this is what we do: we light and we brighten the lamps of human consciousness." I made up this phrase spontaneously, but it's very satisfying to me. I made it up right in the moment when we made this video. Why is this? Well, that's what the young kid was doing who was trying to—"Green eyes, Ernie has green eyes." And it was under the impulse of love, beauty.
RA: Art.
ER: The divine. Here's another part of the anecdote. I was always falling in love with girls, especially in high school. I can remember, back to fifth grade, a series of girls. I remember all their names. What did they all have in common? You've got to remember, I'm a dirty—not an immigrant, but like an immigrant. Dyes were on my hands. The little girls, when they played checkers or Monopoly, they didn't want me to play with them because my hands were always so dirty. Imagine going into your teens with this. But the common denominator before I knew I was smart, myself, was the girls I fell in love were not just the prettiest but they were always the smartest. Just because her father owned the best jewelry store in town, that wasn't why I was casting sidelong glances at this girl in sixth grade or something, but it was because she was the smartest. And that also motivated me to start taking school seriously. Of course, I was already doing it with my private reading.
But love, beauty was my path to truth, science, all these things.
But love, beauty was my path to truth, science, all these things.
RA: That’s fascinating. Well, again, I so appreciate you taking the time today to talk with me. Thank you.
ER: You're very welcome, it's been really quite a pleasure.

Frank Pittman on Growing Up and Taking Responsibility

Victor Yalom: I appreciate you fitting this time into your busy schedule at the Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference (2000) for this interview.
Frank Pittman: I love being interviewed.
VY: Really? Why?
FP: Because I like to get that much attention from somebody,especially somebody who may ask me something that hasn't been asked before,and stimulate some thought.
VY: I like to stimulate people.
FP: Great.

Grow Up!

VY: Your book has a bold title. It’s called Grow Up! How’d you come up with that title?
FP: My first book, Turning Points, was about treating families in transitions and crises. The original title was Shit Happens, and they changed it.
VY: They?
FP: My publisher. I wrote another book, about infidelity, entitled Screwing Around, and they changed the title to Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy. So I wrote a book about men and masculinity, about fathers and sons and the search for masculinity. And the title was Balls. They changed it to Man Enough. So I figured I could write a book called Grow Up about—really it's about the happiness that comes from joining the adult generation, rather than sticking with the narcissism of being in the child generation, the generation to whom much is owed and who feels picked on allthe time. So I called it Grow Up! I never thought for a moment they'd keep that title, but they did. And then the day the book came out the publisher went bankrupt. And has not been heard from since!

VY: So maybe they should have changed that title?
FP: Maybe they should have changed the title. The book's doing okay; it's just that the publisher is not. They sold the paperback rights to St.Martin's Press, which is doing pretty well with it.
VY: Can you summarize the thesis of Grow Up?
FP: The thesis is that people who feel like victims (people who feel that they're helpless and they need other people to do for them) are not going to be as happy as people who see themselves as competent adultsAnd
we've got a society full of good people who somehow get stuck in adolescence.
we've got a society full of good people who somehow get stuck in adolescence. And I think we have that because we haven't really seen much in the way of adults making marriages work, making life work. Kids instead grow up seeing adults complaining because the adults aren't children. So the children can fight like hell to make sure they don't have to become adults.
VY: What do you mean, “adults aren’t children?”
FP: These adults are behaving like children. They screw around on their marriage, they pout, they refuse to parent their children and instead complain to their children because the children aren't performing better for the glory of the parent. We've got a society in which adulthood is not valued. And as a result, we wind up with very unhappy people. See, if you find yourself in the child generation, you really have a choice: you can declare whether you're going to be an adult or a child. You know you're declaring that you're going to be a child when you go around blaming your life choices on your parents, when you go around avoiding getting stuck in adult positions, getting stuck in adult jobs, adult professions, and try to maintain the child's position. You're being a child if you go around trying to get everyone to see you as a child, by dressing yourself up as a child.
People wear baseball caps now, trying to look as if they're 12-year old children, so nobody will expect them to be grown up. We've got a world full of people who are trying to do that because they're terrified of moving into adulthood.
People wear baseball caps now, trying to look as if they're 12-year old children, so nobody will expect them to be grown up. We've got a world full of people who are trying to do that because they're terrified of moving into adulthood. And what they don't realize is that if they felt empowered enough to be adults, their ability to achieve happiness would be enormously enhanced.
VY: I’ve been struck by your bold and repeated use of the word “happy.” In fact, the subtitle of your book is How Taking Responsibility Can Make You a Happy Adult. People don’t talk much about the actuality, or even the possibility, of being happy.
FP: They don't talk about being happy. What they talk about is not being happy. What they talk about is that if they don't get their heart's desire, they will surely be miserable. If they're not so crazily in love—with their job, with their wife, with their child—that they just perform their responsibilities automatically, out of overwhelming passion, then they will surely be miserable.
There's this great belief that if you are not getting everything your heart desires, you will be miserable. This is a dangerous belief. The failure to be blessed with a life that is a constant state of ecstatic wonder becomes a psychiatric emergency.
There's this great belief that if you are not getting everything your heart desires, you will be miserable. This is a dangerous belief. The failure to be blessed with a life that is a constant state of ecstatic wonder becomes a psychiatric emergency. All the mental health people jump in and say, "Oh, my God. They're not happy. Call the fire department. Maybe these people shouldn't have gotten married. Sorry about the six kids and all. But maybe they shouldn't have gotten married. Maybe we'll have to get them divorced so maybe they can be happy with the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, or the 6th husband or wife." I look at these people who aremiserable in their marriages and their lives, and I think, I have the responsibility to them, to make them aware that they have the capacity to bring about their adult selves—that they have aresponsibility to their children that's going to affect the second half oftheir life enormously if they don't fulfill it. Maybe I've got aresponsibility to the two other people that these folks would marry next if they don't learn how to be married the first time around.
VY: You have previously mentioned your marriage as being a big source of happiness for you.
FP: It's been a big source of reality for me. Some days it's kind of irritating. There's a wonderful line at the end of American Beauty when Kevin Spacey has been shot, is dying. His wife has been messing around on him, can't stand him. He's looking at the pictures of his family as he dies. He says it's all coming to him, as if all of it's happening at the same time. "And the only thing we can feel is grateful." Now, to have somebody who's willing to put up with you for forty years, to have somebody who knows you; it makes you so appreciative. Somebody else may have a better turned elbow, cuter toes, or something like that. Somebody else might tell jokes better or cook better or do better carpentry, or some such thing. But that seems so unimportant compared with having somebody really care about you. Somebody who knows you.

James Dean and Modern Malaise

VY: How did you personally come into adulthood. When did you grow up? And what helped you to grow up?
FP: I grew up in the 1950s. At that time, adulthood was popular. We aspired to it. It was the pre-James Dean era. See, in 1955, James Dean came along. Elvis Presley came in the same year. But James Dean appeared in three movies, in all of which he sat around and whimpered and suffered because his father, or father-figure, was not loving him enough. And then he sullenly collapsed on some woman, taking like a child and giving nothing back.
VY: For the benefit of those of us in the next generation trying to grow up, could you remind us what these three movies are?
FP: The first was East of Eden, then Rebel Without A Cause and Giant. The plot was the same in all three of them. The guy who could not grow up because he had not received his father's approval, and trying to get a woman to take care of him. These were the children of what Tom Brokaw calls "The Greatest Generation," the generation that fought World War II. The men were the heroes that saved the world. All they had to do was risk their lives. They came back home to be worshiped by women and be taken care of and granted all manner of privileges. Only their sons didn't want to go risk their lives. They didn't want to run the risk of dying.
VY: You’re talking about Vietnam?
FP: Well, the world was changing before Vietnam. Remember, there was Korea before Vietnam. The world changed a lot between 45 and 68. The boys of that generation were expected to grow up to be little soldiers. And they began to resist that effort. They began to refuse. In many ways this was a good thing; in many other ways, it was a very bad thing. Because while we ended up having a generation that produced social change, we also had a generation that was highly resistant to the idea of growing up.
VY: So it’s a good thing if growing up doesn’t necessarily mean being soldiers and going out to kill people.
FP: But
growing up does mean that while your feelings are very interesting, they're not the only thing that's going on in the universe today.
growing up does mean that while your feelings are very interesting, they're not the only thing that's going on in the universe today. And however lovely your feelings are, and however fascinating your complicated state of mind, there are things that need to be done. And if you're going to take on a partner, there are responsibilities there. If you're going to have children, there are responsibilities there. And you can't really run out on those responsibilities and maintain much of a senseof honor and integrity. You can't run out on those responsibilities and really grow up in a way that makes you proud of your life's choices in the second half of your life.
VY: So I hear you saying that one thing that helped you grow up was the historical times that you lived in. Growing up was expected; it wasn’t really a question.
FP: I was never given a choice. I went to college in four years. I was not given a choice of taking six or seven or eight years because I wanted to "experience" myself. Nobody in my generation was.
VY: But what personally helped you to grow up? To really grow up, not just to fulfill those roles.
FP: By the time I was 25, I was a doctor, a husband, and a father. I might very well have wanted to go off to Tahiti and paint. But that just didn't seem like much of an option! If you don't consider it an option, then you don't go through the rest of your life pouting because you didn't get to do it. I mean, at a certain age, I wanted to run off with the circus! At another age, I would have liked to have been a cowboy. By the time I was moving toward adulthood, certainly by the time I got out of college, it became apparent that hey, I've got the abilities that are required to become an adult. If I become an adult, then I will have all of these rights and privileges. I will have honor and integrity, and I will be respected by all sorts of people. There will be all manner of good things that will happen to me.

Who the Hell is Frank Pittman to Tell Me Anything?

VY: So you became a psychiatrist, and you noticed that a lot of your patients haven’t grown up. They come into your office, and some of them know some things about you and what your values are. I can imagine them are thinking, “Who the hell is Frank Pittman to tell me anything? To tell me how I should grow up?”
FP: "What an ass! How dare he tell me anything. He's just like my daddy; he's just like my mamma; he's just like the assistant principal. How can anybody tell me what to do? I want what I want when I want it. I'm not going to grow up and you can't make me!"
VY: So whatever they know about you beforehand , probably within the first five minutes that you open your mouth, they’re going to get a strong sense of what your values are.
FP: Most of my patients have heard about me before they come in.
VY: I don't believe in pure therapeutic neutrality per se, but it seems to me that you're on the very opposite end of that spectrum. So if people get such a clear sense of what your values are, how does that impact your work with them?
FP: I am empowering. I'm making them aware that they have the power to do things they didn't know they could do. They really do not know that they can act contrary to their emotions. When they feel mad, they react mad. When they feel sad, they act sad. When they feel bored, they act bored. They are not aware that if they behave differently from the way they feel, in some sort of thought-out way, they may very well achieve exactly what they're seeking.
VY: According to Frank Pittman?
FP: I don't have control over them. I can't make them do what they don't want to do. I can just make them aware that they can do things differently from the way they're doing them.
VY: What you bring to the work, your values, your views—it has got to have a big impact on your relationships with your clients. You bring a lot of yourself into the room.
FP: A lot of myself is in the whole office. My wife runs the office. Until recently, my daughter was working with us.
VY: She’s a psychologist?
FP: Both of my daughters are psychologists. One of them I write with, and one of them I do therapy with. But when people come in, they really enter my life. Much more than I enter theirs. They're in my space; they're in my milieu. They're experiencing me and how I think and how I evaluate things and how I make decisions.
VY: Again, how does that impact the type of therapy you do?
FP: They're perfectly capable of saying, "I'm not going to do it and you can't make me." They're perfectly free to not come back. When I make people aware that they don't have to break off contact with their families, they don't have to quit their job, they don't have to leave their marriage, they don't have to put their children up for adoption. That they really could do something different. Despite the fact that they're doing exactly what they're feeling, they could do something different that might produce a different outcome. And while I might offer one possibility or two or seventeen possibilities about something they might do differently, they can come up with a whole lot of possibilities on their own. Many more than I can come up with.

My contribution is my optimism that they have the power to do things differently from the way they have been taught to do things. From the way they have been accustomed to doing things. I see people who are violent; I see a lot of people who are screwing around; I see people who are kicking and hollering at their kids all the time; I see people who jump from job to job to job, finding something to be displeased with in all of them. These people don't have to do that. It's self-defeating for them to do it, and I can make them aware.

The Movies and the Psychotherapeutic

VY: How do you make them aware? What do you do?
FP: Send them to the movies. Send them out reading novels. The novels and the movies are opportunities to examine people making decisions. Feeling what they're feeling, thinking it out, taking action of one sort or another. They get to spend a few hours in somebody else's head, in somebody else's life. I tell them stories. I tell them stories from my own life; I tell them stories from other people's lives. I just go through the process with them of how they make the decisions that they're making. That just because they're mad at somebody doesn't mean they have to hit them. Just because somebody cuts them off in traffic, they don't have to shoot them. They don't have to do just what they feel like doing. If they see somebody who turns them on, they don't have to jump them. If the kids get to them, they don't have to kick them. But there are people who don't know that.
VY: You have a love of the movies.
FP: I have a love of the movies. I do. I want my myths to come at me bigger than life. I want big myths. I want John Wayne-, Katherine Hepburn-size myths. I have this great love for the movies that I guess comes from growing up in rural Georgia and Alabama and thinking that happiness was elsewhere. That there must be great excitement elsewhere. It took me coming into adulthood to appreciate what we had in those little towns. Because at the time I wanted to get to the big city. I wanted to get to Atlanta.

No Neutralily and No Pussyfooting Around

VY: I can imagine someone reading this interview might think, “Frank Pittman’s in there kind of sermonizing, telling people what to do,” rather than helping people explore and come up with their own solutions. Can you try and give a picture of how you help them reach these decisions?
FP: I was looking at a tape I made about ten years ago, interviewing a couple. The man had been screwing around for 20 years. His wife found out about it. And in talking with him about it, he just assumed that all the other men were doing the same sort of thing that he was doing. And the magic moment in all of this was when he said, "I must have been the only man who was feeling what I was feeling." I said, "No, no. I think we all feel that way. I think we all enjoy looking. But it feels safer if you know you're not going to act on it. What did you think everybody else was doing?" He said, "I thought everybody else was messing around just the way I was." I said, "No. Some people were and some people weren't and things generally went better for the ones who weren't."

Now, I'm not shoving anything down his throat. If you're being honest with your partner, then you have this magical thing of knowing that there's somebody who knows you, warts and all, who knows you in all your foolishness, and puts up with you anyway. And there can be no more wonderful feeling in life than that. Whereas, if somebody thinks you're perfect and you've faked them out into thinking that, the fact that that person loves you doesn't mean shit. Because they don't know you.
VY: If you don’t mind, I’d like to back up and get a sense of how you evolved into the kind of active, perhaps moralistic kind of therapist that you are.
FP: Well, unfortunately I didn't get trained very well in psychiatric residency.
They were never able to convince me that I was supposed to sit there like a stuffed teddy bear after a stroke and pretend not to understand anything that was going on and not have any thoughts about it.
They were never able to convince me that I was supposed to sit there like a stuffed teddy bear after a stroke and pretend not to understand anything that was going on and not have any thoughts about it. So I got involved in working with families. I grew up in a family where everything, all explanations, were 3-generational. Everything was connected with Grandma. That was my growing up in Alabama and Georgia. They brought Nathan Ackerman and Margaret Mead and whoever I needed to teach me.
VY: Who’s “they”?
FP: The Department of Psychiatry at Emory. They were just getting started; they had lots of money and very few residents. It was wonderful. A great experience. It's just that they didn't teach me how to be psychoanalytic. I became a family therapist instead. I hooked up with some people who had gotten a grant from NIMH, and went out to Denver and spent four years researching community mental health, learning how to keep people out of psychiatric hospitals by doing family therapy at home. It worked well, we got great results, we won awards–it was all fabulous. I became head of psychiatry at the local, great big charity hospital back in Atlanta, and was teaching at Emory. I did that for about four years and then went into private practice.

Finally I decided to write the book about family crises. The first step in writing the book about family crises was to write achapter on infidelity, because that was the major crisis that was coming to my attention. In my family, people didn't screw around. The ones who did, we talked about it. We used them as object lessons. So I had a pretty clear idea that this was irregular behavior. People had agreed not to do that and they were doing it, and sure enough all hell was breaking loose. Sometimes all hell was breaking loose in that they were people mad, and sometimes they had even bigger problems: they were falling in love with the people they screwed around with! God knows, this is theroad to unhappiness and instability. So I wrote this book about family crises, including the chapter about infidelity. The publisher said, "You can't write about infidelity; that's a moral issue." It's like, "Here, I'll show you all these wonderful textbooks on marriage that go on for 400, 800 pages without ever mentioning infidelity. You can do that, if you set your mind to it."

So I took it to another publisher. Then I wrote Private Lies, the one on infidelity, which was more or less for a popular audience. I had written Turning Points,the first one, the one on family crisis, with the idea that therapists could give it to their patients. I wrote Private Lies with the idea that patients would bring this to their therapists.
VY: Why?
FP: Because we were going through a
period of assuming that what therapists did was being neutral and assuring everybody that whatever damn fool thing they wanted to do was perfectly okay.
period of assuming that what therapists did was being neutral and assuring everybody that whatever damn fool thing they wanted to do was perfectly okay. That they didn't have to give any thought to the impact of their actions on anybody else.
VY: You tend to make (in your books and right now) some pretty strong and provocative generalizations about all sorts of people, including therapists.
FP: Well, pussyfooting around is time-consuming.
VY: I think a lot of therapists reading this interview are going to think, “Hey, I don’t do that!”
FP: Good for them! If they don't do that, then they should send me their card and I'll send them referrals. If they are willing to take strong values, if they are willing to use their experience as therapists to mold their own values, to make sense out of life, to make sense out of the human condition and how to live it and how to make it work, then they're developing wisdom. And if they're developing wisdom by really challenging the cultural norms, challenging the social customs, and trying to figure out how things connect with one another, what actions will cause what reactions, then they're going to get wise. I've noticed that therapists who have been practicing for 10 or 15 years get over their fear of hurting people. And they begin to realize that this is a human encounter between them and somebody else. And if they can convey their experience of life, their experience of the sort of dilemmas, the sort of life stages that their patients are going through, as well as hearing what their patients have to say, then it's a collaborative effort for coming to an understanding of life.
VY: It’s great when that happens.
FP:
It's marvelous. And if therapists are being honest, rather than being neutral, if they're really having fun, if they're finding the humor in the human condition, then therapists can help people go from the tragic position that their feelings must be all determining, to the comic position of believing that their survival is crucial.
It's marvelous. And if therapists are being honest, rather than being neutral, if they're really having fun, if they're finding the humor in the human condition, then therapists can help people go from the tragic position that their feelings must be all determining, to the comic position of believing that their survival is crucial. If we can get people to change in order to protect themselves from the certain disaster that will come from continuing the patterns that they're in, it becomes a dance that is marvelously celebratory. Therapy must be fun. If it's not fun, you're not doing it right.
VY: It’s not always fun.
FP: Sometimes people have to go through periods of convincing you that they feel bad. Once you can convince them that you are convinced that they feel bad, then you can start talking about life and about how to make choices and what to do about the fact that they're feeling bad. What sort of action they can take, what sort of choices they can make, what sort of things they can do that can enable them to live with themselves despite the fact that their life isn't perfect, that the world isn't perfect, and they're feeling something they don't want to feel.

Therapy is No Place for Handholding

VY: You are quite critical of traditional therapists–that they are hand-holders and don’t take tough positions.
FP: I think we went through a period in which this passive, neutral approach was encouraged. My experience is that the longer therapists practice, the more comfortable they get as therapists, the less likely they are to be neutral. The less likely therapists are to be hand-holders, and the more likely they are to make this a human encounter between more or less equals, or at least equal in the sense that we're all mortal and we're all idiots and none of us is quite what we'd like to be.
VY: How long have you been practicing as a therapist?
FP: Forty years. I started my psychiatric residency forty years ago.
VY: You said a few minutes ago that you think it takes 10-15 years for a therapist to come into their own, to not be afraid.
FP: It takes 10-15 years to reach the point that they are not thinking of people in terms of their pathology. And they're not being protective of people, trying to keep them from living their lives.
VY: They’re going to lead their lives anyway.
FP: Coming to the rescue is not what makes them therapeutic. It's the human encounter. It's the exploration of the movies and the novels and the life going on, the history going on. That's what's empowering.
VY: But you’ve got to find their language. You may love movies; that may be a great medium for you, so you’d love to send your clients out to see movies, but they may need something very different.
FP: I have clients who bring me rap music that expresses what they feel. Country music, with all those lessons in low rent reality, is full of wisdom, and opera, with all those out of shape, not very bright characters feeling everything so desperately, is full of bad examples of crisis management. I love it.
VY: So you put on the rap CD in your office and listen to it?
FP: I have dutifully listened to a whole lot of very bad music that sounds like industrial noise to me, but tells me what they feel—and what it must sound like to filter reality through their brains. But in my office I generally keep Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven playing. It keeps my brain organized, it keeps me at peace. It makes me smart.
VY: So, I’m in the 10-15 year category. You’re in the 40 year category. What would you want to tell people like me and my colleagues about what you’ve learned?
FP: Read novels, go to movies, and normalize what you're seeing in your office. Turn it into the human condition. Turn the crises of life into stages of development.Read novels, go to movies, and normalize what you're seeing in your office. Turn it into the human condition. Turn the crises of life into stages of development.
VY: You talked about the old generation of men: that you had to fit into certain roles.
FP: I don't know if I had to. I had the opportunity to.
VY: But there weren’t a lot of choices in that regard.
FP: No.
VY: So now we do live in a different world. And you’re saying, “There’s some great value in these obligations. These expectations that you’ll grow up and be a man, and a woman, and accept that responsibility.”
FP: The beauty of it is that it's now possible. Because we've largely done away with gender. Gender no longer has to be determining. That helps enormously.
VY: I think we also have a greater opportunity that we can do that: that we can be men and women and yet have a much fuller, broader definition of what masculinity or femininity is.
FP: What people don't understand—and this is the reason I keep talking about it—is how much happier they'd become if they'd accept the responsibility for the give and take of their relationships. If they accept the responsibility for parenting or marriage or careers or their social responsibilities— picking up the trash on the highway, or whatever it is. If they see that they're privileged to live with these people who are willing to put up with them, they're privileged to live in this society, on this planet and that they owe something back, they'll end up feeling very good about themselves.
VY: That sounds like a good place for us to stop.
FP: It's fun.
Life is fun, therapy is fun! But only if you're not feeling like a victim.
Life is fun, therapy is fun! But only if you're not feeling like a victim.

Augustus Napier on Experiential Family Therapy

Experiential Family Therapy

Rebecca Aponte: I want to talk to you about your contributions to psychotherapy, particularly in couples and family therapy. First off, you’ve called your approach Experiential Symbolic Therapy. Can you say what you mean by that—by “symbolic,” especially?
Augustus Y. Napier: This term really came from Carl Whitaker. The word "symbolic" has to do with the nature of therapeutic experience. Our assumption is that psychotherapy is a kind of italicized experience in that it's heightened. It provides a slice of experience that the client may not have experienced, which is more honest and more caring, with insights, etc., that they haven't had, and the assumption is that these incidents that occur in the psychotherapy interview—in the room itself—have a kind of symbolic importance. The therapist is symbolic, often of a parent or some family-like authority figure, and what we try to provide is a slice of something that's missing from the family's life. You can't reparent somebody who needed twenty years of the kind of parenting they didn't get, but you can provide them experience that is a taste of something that was missing in the family or the individual's experience. In that way, it's like a slice of a pie that goes deep but not broad.

RA: How does the therapist do that?
AN: I think by bringing a lot of focus on the here-and-now in the interview—that is, trying to make the experience as real, as immediate, and as powerful as possible. I think families bring a lot of expectations to therapy. Things have gotten pretty bad; there's a hunger for something new, and for help. Often they bring a lot of skepticism and wariness, but they also bring a need that's pretty deep. So the way that the therapist influences the symbolic nature is to, first of all, be aware that what you say, what you do, has more than ordinary importance. This is not a social conversation—this is a deeper level of conversation. So the therapist invests a kind of personal commitment to making the experience in the interview as intense, and as intensely meaningful, as possible. It's taking on a burden of making this more personal, as opposed to technical.
RA: Does that mean you allow the therapy to impact you in a personal way?
AN: Yes, it does. It means
we allow ourselves to be personally involved, and to bring our own feelings, as well as our thoughts, to the process.
we allow ourselves to be personally involved, and to bring our own feelings, as well as our thoughts, to the process.
RA: I can imagine some different schools of thought cringing at that idea.
AN: Yes, absolutely. I talked recently with a friend whom I had referred to a therapist. My friend said, "He talked about himself—I found that unprofessional." What I think should be emphasized here is that we're well aware of the danger in the therapist's personal involvement. And for that reason, we often work with co-therapists who balance the personal in some way. It's as if you're in a tag-team wrestling match: one of the therapists goes in and works for a while, and then they're sort of rescued by the other one who's been watching and monitoring and being more in his or her head. So we think about psychotherapy as freed up by the therapists being a team; that allows a more personal encounter.

We're also quite disciplined about the structure of the therapy. For example, if somebody walks out of the room to go to the bathroom, we stop the interview because we don't want a second level of interaction. Somebody might walk out to go to the bathroom and the other partner says, "I'm having an affair." So there's a discipline process around the structure. And we maintain control of the structure—for example, who comes in to the therapy—in a way that creates safety.

Heart Surgery

RA: I think that sounds ideal, and obviously people who have read The Family Crucible have glimpsed the co-therapist model in action. Is that something that’s practical, though? Is that something that’s easy to do?
AN: Well, it's expensive any time you have two therapists in a room working together. Whitaker's analogy is that
family therapy is like heart surgery: it's very complex, and you'd better not do it by yourself because you're in over your head.
family therapy is like heart surgery: it's very complex, and you'd better not do it by yourself because you're in over your head. You get sucked into the family's own drama and you lose your perspective—and that really happens to lots of therapists who try to do it alone. It's a bit like speaking to the wilderness: when you try to say this to people whose work is dictated by managed care, for example, they're not going to want to pay for two therapists. So agencies that have some freedom over their budget can do it, and in private practice it can be done, but it is a specialty. And my concern over time about the field is that the demands of this practice, of working with families and couples, are much greater than we had anticipated, and that the therapists need a lot more help, a lot more structure, a lot more support in order to do it well. So there are limitations to being able to work in teams, but I think it's necessary to do a really good job. When trying to work with families and couples alone, I've often found myself triangulated in some way, or compromised by that process, or feeling overwhelmed or discouraged, or induced into the family's own world to too great of an extent. So admittedly this is not an easy approach to do, and it's not easy to teach.
RA: Reading your book, I got the sense that a lot of problems that we as a society tend to think of as individual problems actually exist within the family or the couple. Would you say that most therapy really belongs in a family or couples context?
AN: That's my belief. There are individual, intrapsychic, historical issues that need to be worked with, but my sense is that it's best done by starting first with the group that's intimately involved—that lives together, that deals with each other in real time. And the individual work can take place within that context—that is, you can work on the husband or the wife's childhood with the other person in the room. And it takes some work to get there so that there's enough intimacy and safety. But there's a point, for example, in working with couples where conflict breaks down between the couple because it's very clear that a lot of issues come out of their histories. And that's what I would call a depressive period: when, instead of fighting with each other, you have two people who get depressed because they realize, "Oh my goodness, this really comes from childhood and from my other relationships." So there is a phase in which individual therapy in the presence of the other becomes the focus.

And sometimes, toward the end of therapy, a lot of the group issues have been resolved, and somebody wants to work on something that has to do with their own journey or their own individual issue, and then you have enough trust in the group itself for that to take place. But the first step, really, is to get all the key players in the room, and to work on building safety and trust and more intimacy with that group. Then you have tremendous freedom about where you go and what you do. But if you start with an individual, you become that person's therapist, and it can happen in two or three sessions, so that you'd be not available to the family.

The Dangers of Individual Therapy

RA: I don’t mean to suggest that it’s not helpful at all, but do you feel that most individual therapy is a waste of time? I think most people nowadays go to individual therapy; do they then go home and get in these same old dynamics?
AN: Exactly. One of the dangers in doing individual therapy, and I think they're considerable dangers, is that the therapist and the client create a fantasy about life that is a kind offolie à deux in which two people agree, "Oh, the real problem is your spouse," or, "The real problem is your mother-in-law." But when this process goes on for a long time, the client and therapist become a microsociety within which there's agreement and consensus and a kind of coziness. While that can feel good, a problem with what I would call a kind of autistic view of the world is that nobody challenges it. There's nobody there to say, "Oh, but I don't agree about that. You're forgetting about so-and-so," or, "I see you as…" So there's no encounter where an individual's perception is challenged in some way, by somebody else who knows them and is involved with them. So there are two things that can happen with individual work. I mean, there are many things, but one thing is that the family or the marriage or the context defeats the individual.
RA: What do you mean by that?
AN: She's run down. She doesn't have as much money or as much power as her husband. She is helped to feel a little better, but she doesn't have enough power to change the system, so she goes home and essentially plays the role that life casts her in there. So there's the situation where an individual fails to develop enough power to really change the system. Now, sometimes a powerful therapist can help someone change their system, and that really can happen. Usually it's because the therapist is thinking about the system and, in fact, is working with the individual on how to deal with the system. My wife Margaret treated a woman whose husband was well known, rigid, absolutely uninterested in coming to therapy. And I think her work with the wife was so targeted and so thoughtful that it really saved the marriage, even though he never came. So sometimes the issue is: Is the therapist thinking about the system? Does the therapist have a commitment to the life of the system rather than just who's in the room? Of course, it would have been a lot easier of the husband had come to therapy.
RA: Right, of course.
AN: The other danger with individual therapy—and this is something tragic I saw sometimes—I remember a woman who came in with her husband. The woman's therapist had asked me to join in because the marriage had deteriorated as the individual work progressed. And by the time I came into that system, it was very clear that this woman had decided with the therapist that the husband was impossible and that she was out of there. And they did divorce. He remarried, she never did, and I think she lived a pretty lonely life after that, without ever having had access to really concentrated work on that problematic marriage. So
sometimes individual therapy creates a coalition that really disempowers a marriage.
sometimes individual therapy creates a coalition that really disempowers a marriage. I've seen it be destructive in that way. And it's not that she shouldn't have divorced, but the marriage really never had an advocate in itself.
RA: What does it mean when you’re working with a family and the family system is your client? That’s really very different from the way that individual therapy is taught.
AN: Yes, and that's really the basis of family therapy: seeing that the problems are not just in the individuals, they're in the complexity of the relationships. And we would say that the family is always your client—that you should be thinking about your work as it impacts that group. But it's a very different way of viewing the world. It's much more difficult to say, "My client is this family. My obligation is to help them as a group." And it's something that I think more therapists should do—that is, to expand their mandate to include the family: "My responsibility is beyond the individual. I'm responsible for what's happening to the kids at home, I'm responsible for what's going on between an adult and their parents," and so forth. So it's an expanded mandate. And I think it's the ethical way to proceed with therapy, is to think in bigger terms than what your obligation is.
RA: Is the way that you engage a family significantly different than the way you would engage a non-family group, or the individuals within the family?
AN: That's a great question. I don't think it's necessarily different, from the therapist's perspective. Whitaker used to compare the family to a sports team that's been playing together for years and years: they know each other's moves, so they're powerful in their connectedness. An ad-hoc group is not powerful in that way, unless it's got a longevity commitment together. So an ad-hoc group is relatively superficial in the intensity of the connection, compared with a family. The voltage is so much higher in families; the stakes are so much higher. So with an ad-hoc group, you can develop a lot of intensity, but it tends to be focused on the individuals that make up the group.

Bringing the Past into the Present

RA: I’ve seen you conduct couples therapy in the video Experiential Therapy. Is that representational of most of your work?
AN: You know, it's interesting. Reviewing this video recently, I was surprised at how much time I spent in the interview on insight into the couple's histories. And as I looked at it, I thought I was aware of the fragile nature of the relationship, and was trying to help them gain more insight because I didn't have much time with them. But I think in ongoing work, there's a lot more emphasis on the encounter process between the members. There's a lot less therapist intervention, a lot more sitting back and watching as an episode unfolds. And then there's a point where one comes in and intervenes in a more confrontational or personal way. I started out fairly confrontational in that interview, and then for some reason I backed off and didn't push in the direction I'd been going. So I do think that typical for the experiential approach is an effort to push the family to try some interactions that they haven't been doing, and to lend one's own muscle to getting some different things to happen. For example, in the interview that you're talking about, I pushed the husband to be more assertive. So I do think that there's that component, that is, the focus on the encounter process and making it move somewhere new by adding a coalition from the therapist or by encouraging somebody to go in a direction they've been afraid to go in. But I also think of this work as having a high component of insight.

I started my career in high school reading Freud—not that I knew I was starting a career, but I picked up some paperbacks off a newsstand—and so I came into this field with a keen attachment to the idea that we understand our histories. And intellectually, I'm curious. I think people need to know a lot about themselves and their upbringings. I think this process of becoming more rational about the turbulence of the emotional world is generally a good thing. So I would probably put more emphasis on insight, for instance, than Carl Whitaker would have. But where I joined with his work was believing in getting that history to become present—that is, bringing in the family of origin, and working actively with those key players. And
it feels to me that the most powerful, impactful work that I did was bringing together extended families.
it feels to me that the most powerful, impactful work that I did was bringing together extended families. In some ways it was incredibly easy once you got people into the room, because they had a lot to talk to each other about that they really needed to deal with. And you just helped it along.
RA: And were there other families where you would have to take a more active and more confrontational role?
AN: Yes. Families where there's a big power imbalance, where there's some abusive process going on, where somebody is floundering, being suicidal. But I think, particularly when there's the danger of abuse, working carefully and confrontationally is sometimes called for.
RA: Is there a time when that goes wrong?
AN: Well, I think there are many times when psychotherapy goes in directions we didn't anticipate, sort of like a political process—you get surprised by things. Looking back over years of practice, I think that I wish I had been more confrontational more often. I think
this is one thing that differentiates experiential therapy—the willingness to be confrontational.
this is one thing that differentiates experiential therapy—the willingness to be confrontational. And to be openly caring. So that level of emotional involvement is part of what typifies this approach.

A Vague, Intuitive Therapy

RA: What sort of criticism have you heard about your method?
AN: That it's vague. That it's too subject to the therapist's own countertransference issues. That it's expensive because it often involves a team. That it's cumbersome if you try to get in people who don't want to come. That it can sometimes be authoritarian if the therapist sets rules about the process. But I think the main criticism is that it's hard to define—it's hard to say what it is. And I think part of that problem is that what it is is complex. It's atheoretical, and it's atechnical—there's generally not a set of techniques that we learn. For example, in structural therapy, there are certain theories about what you do in what situations, and techniques that you can use. And I think experiential therapists do use techniques—I don't think we're entirely pure. But there's a high focus on the therapist's intuitive process. And so when you're trying to teach experiential psychotherapy, it's generally something that's done best with a student in the room with the therapist. That is, we often trained therapists by doing co-therapy with them. And that's a very slow way to teach. It can take years of hanging out with somebody to really teach them what you're doing. I was lucky to get to work side by side with Carl for at least five years. So I think the approach is limited by the personalized way of teaching. And I'm also concerned that it's limited by the fact that it's quite complex.

So I think there are real concerns about the approach. But one of the things that I think make it exciting for the therapist is the permission to be himself or herself in the process. And
over time I've begun to think, "Gosh, I have one of the best jobs that anybody on the planet can have."
over time I've begun to think, "Gosh, I have one of the best jobs that anybody on the planet can have." I have a license to say what I feel and think. I'm trying to do something to help people, and I've given myself permission to be myself in the interview, to be real, to say what's on my mind. And that's incredible. When you look around this society, how many jobs give you permission to be honest? To care about the people who are paying you? And I began to think about it as a kind of privileged position or perspective, to be allowed to take a personal involvement with something as intricate and meaningful as a family.

So I think this approach has the promise of expanding the experience of the therapist. You're not doing a series of techniques—you are putting your own life mixed in with other lives, and it's incredibly rich emotionally. So I found the work exciting. I was always curious about what was going to happen, what this new family was going to be like. I always felt like I was learning and being forced to learn. I felt like I was being forced to confront my own devils in my own family.

And that reminds me that another part of this approach is the assumption that the therapist will have therapy—that if you do this approach, you'll find yourself having to go back to therapy because this family looks so much like the one you grew up in, or this person reminds you so much of… And the field is so charged. It's hard to distance yourself from it.
RA: Based on what you’re saying about this style of therapy–with the therapist being so emotionally involved—it would seem necessary for the therapist to be engaged in his or her own therapy.
AN: Yes—having your own therapy, having a consultation group, like a peer supervision group, and having an actual consultant with you in the therapy session. In cases where co-therapy was prohibitively expensive, we arranged within our practice group to do drop-in consultations for each other, where every four or five sessions the other therapist would come in and essentially say, "How are you doing? Has Gus gotten on somebody's side yet?" and so on. So the balancing of the personal with disciplined professional structure is what makes it really possible.
RA: Switching gears a little bit, obviously not everyone is going to work well with this style of therapy. Which clients don’t work well with this?
AN: Rigidly authoritarian families have real trouble with it, because usually they're dominated by an individual who doesn't want his or her power disrupted. Often it needs to be disrupted. So people who are personally rigid or systems that are personally rigid are threatened by this approach. They want you let them identify the problem and then have you solve it. And often it's, "Fix our adolescent son or daughter." And without the freedom to challenge that scapegoating dynamic, golly, it's really tough. One of the things we learned that helped us work with that kind of authoritarian structure is to find the vulnerability of the powerful person–being careful not to humiliate this person—but basically forming an alliance with them that says, "I know life is hard for you, too. Tell me your perspective. Where are you worried?" The aim is to co-opt that power position by going for support.
RA: Right—rather than trying to topple it in a humiliating way.

Rising to the Family’s Challenge

AN: Particularly with rigid men, you've got to tiptoe around their pride sometimes. And sometimes just getting them to come to the session is a victory. So you tread carefully with them. But at some point you know you'll have to challenge the family, and an individual in the family. You have to challenge their authority. And you guard yourself for that moment: "Okay, when's the showdown going to be?" And it's probably wise of the family to challenge the therapist, because they need to know if you can stand up to them.
They need to know that you have enough strength to take the chaos beneath the surface.
They need to know that you have enough strength to take the chaos beneath the surface. And sometimes it's an adolescent who's elected to challenge by refusing to come to the session or by being flippant, insulting. But often it's one of the parents who's threatened by the process.
RA: Do you see a big shift in the family after that confrontation takes place?
AN: Yes. It's really a critical moment in therapy, and usually the family sort of sighs with relief: "Oh, we feel in safer hands." At the beginning of therapy, the family is needy but not trusting, and they have to put you through a series of tests to find out if they can trust you. Can you challenge the dominant person in the family? It may be a bratty four-year-old. Can you be honest? Can you maintain neutrality, or can you be sucked into somebody's side? I remember a couple I worked with in Madison, one of the first ones I saw there. And I realized I was really getting on the wife's side. I didn't have a co-therapist—they couldn't afford it and I didn't have students at that time. So I got up my nerve and I said, "Listen, I am getting on your wife's side, and you've got to help me see something more sympathetic about your position."
RA: Did that work?
AN: The wife said, "Yes, I'm really good at getting people to be on my side and making him look bad." So we had a laugh, and he began to be more self-revealing. But what I'm just describing is one of the critical elements in this approach to therapy: there's this moment where the therapist says, "Do I have the nerve to say this?" And it's really the ultimate therapeutic moment, when the therapist says, "Okay, I'm going to say this. It's not going to be popular." I remember a family where the husband, a successful lawyer, was in the process of leaving his wife—affair with the secretary and so forth. I got him to bring in his mother and siblings. One of his siblings was obviously gay and frightened at being in the session, and one of the siblings was a kind of hostile-looking good ol' boy. And the husband who was leaving his wife was just one of the crowd, here. But I realized the sister was afraid of her brother's scorn and so forth, and she said something that indicated that she was gay. So, in order to make this perfectly explicit, I said to the good-ol'-boy brother, "How does it feel to have a sister who's gay?" And there was this huge silence.
RA: Oh my gosh.
AN: But it was one of those moments where my heart was in my throat. It's like, "If I can't say this, if I can't challenge the lie in this family, then I'm not earning my keep here." So there was a little talk—this was her coming out in the family. They hadn't been able to talk about it. They did talk about it, and then we moved on to other things. I ran into her years later, and she said, "You know, you asking one question changed the whole course of my experience with my family. They all warmed up to me, and they reconnected," she said. "Everybody except my brother. He never really accepted me." But the experiential approach has this demand on the therapist to be courageous in moments where there's something not being said. And I think that's the essence of the approach, really—to push yourself as the therapist to break the rules about what's permissible within the family. And it's really hard to do.

The Decline of Family Therapy

RA: You concluded The Family Crucible, which was published over 30 years ago now, with a look toward the future. Looking back now over the past three decades, I’d like to get your take on the decline of family therapy. Why is it so hard to get families into treatment?
AN: Well, part of it is cultural in that the family is more fractured. Families have trouble finding time to eat a meal together. They're fractured by time demands, stresses of work, and so forth. So
the whole idea of family unity is under attack by the society.
the whole idea of family unity is under attack by the society. We know of families who don't even have a dining table—they eat fast food sitting on the floor. So there's that cultural aspect. I think the whole idea of family loyalty has been challenged, as well, by geographic mobility. My daughter lives in Argentina, another lives in Boston; my son's in Albany, New York. So going to college, going into the military, is a lot of geographic separation, and that runs counter to families seeing each other and being involved with each other on a daily basis.

But I also think that we have failed as a profession to train family therapists adequately. I don't think we've done a good job of preparing people to do the very difficult work of family therapy. Sometimes in the latter stages of my lecturing, I depressed people because I said, "Listen, our field is failing to make family therapy work. We're letting ourselves be defeated by the insurance companies." And of course, that's another factor here: the family system as patient is in fact often prohibited. That idea was never really embraced by the insurance companies. But I don't think we did a good enough job in giving young therapists enough support to stay with it and to develop their own skills. I just think it takes so much more than we estimated. A resident I worked with in the psychiatry department at Madison said, "Family therapy is doomed because it's too difficult to do. I don't think it will ever work." And he had obviously tried it and found it too daunting. I'm debating about writing a television series based on a family therapist's life. Maybe that will rejuvenate interest. But I think a lot of forces have conspired against family therapy. And you know, it exists in pockets, and certainly there are training programs that do an excellent job, and there are people who do it. But I think the issue of enough support is what has made this so difficult. And it's discouraging to see.
RA: Yeah, it is. Are there family therapy techniques that individual therapists can start to use?
AN: Absolutely. Murray Bowen was the master at this. He would work with a family member for a while, and then he'd say, "I want to see this other one over here." So he would work serially with family members, or he would work with an individual on how to change their direction with the system, and he did that in his own family. So if you think in terms of your client as being a family, you can find a way to work with them. I was amazed that my wife could work with this really difficult, rigid husband through his wife. But he changed over time, so I think in spite of all the obstacles to getting families into the room together, if we can think about the system as something we're responsible for helping, then I think we can help them. I think the critical thing is thinking systems.
RA: And should individual therapists bring in spouses or family members to individual therapy? If they’ve already been working with someone for some time, as that person’s therapist, is that still a helpful thing to do? Is that just getting a better idea of who their individual client is when they see how they interact with others?
AN: Well, yes, indeed—both.
I think that the responsible thing if you're practicing individual therapy is to meet at least the spouse before you start the process
I think that the responsible thing if you're practicing individual therapy is to meet at least the spouse before you start the process, so that you're not dealing with some kind of myth. You see a real person here, and you don't allow a massive distortion of the other. You also learn about an individual client by seeing how they interact.

It's also possible to go in the other direction. Say somebody starts seeing a woman who can't get her husband to come to therapy, and that goes pretty well for a while, and she begins to feel more powerful and she challenges him, and the marriage begins to deteriorate. There is a way to make a transition to working with a couple or a family in this way, which is to bring in another therapist.
RA: Is that structured so that the spouse has a representative?
AN: Well, maybe in the beginning. But really it allows the therapist, who has gotten captured by the individual client, to retreat a little bit and to involve the spouse. It's quite a delicate process to go from an individual therapy process to a couples therapy or family therapy process, but it can be done. It takes another therapist's involvement, I think. I've seen too many cases where an individual therapist tried to bring in a spouse and was so biased that it just went sour very quickly.
RA: I would imagine, even if they weren’t biased, that there would already be intrinsic trust issues.
AN: Absolutely, yes. If the therapist who's been committed to the individual now spreads his or her loyalty to the other spouse, the one who's been the patient feels abandoned. So it's very tricky. Most therapists would say, "Okay, I'm going to hold myself in reserve and refer you to a couples therapist to start again with." That's also very problematic, because you're basically saying to the individual patient, "I'm going to abandon you." So my sense is that it's so much better to start with a minimal unit being the couple. I didn't see individuals in the beginning who were married. I said, "I just don't do it—I know it's going to be trouble. You've got to bring your spouse. And I'll work with you on how to do that, but we're not going to do psychotherapy—we're going to work on how to get your spouse to come to therapy for maybe five sessions."

So my sense was that marriage is the irreducible client—that we owe a certain loyalty to give that relationship an advocate. And that's really an ethical belief.
RA: I can see why. At the end of your book, you mention specifically the role of the medical model in psychiatry needing to change if family therapy is to take hold. What are your thoughts on what has happened now with respect to that? Insurance is obviously one element of the situation, but how has the medical model affected family therapy?
AN: I think in a pretty devastating way. It's not just family therapy that got medicalized—it's the entire psychotherapy process. Psychotherapy got devalued as medicine became the easy way to treat individual distress. In Wisconsin where I was trained, we had a group therapist, we had a family therapist, we had a psychoanalyst, we had a behavioral therapist. And when I went back ten years later, gosh, it all looked medical. It was all focused on medicine and biology and so forth. So I think the medicalization of psychotherapy affected the whole field, not just family therapy. But family therapy was hit particularly hard, because when you say the problem is inside the individual, and it's a biological problem and it's treatable by medicine, it doesn't leave much place for a family system. So
I think medicalization of psychotherapy in general has been a tragic thing.
I think medicalization of psychotherapy in general has been a tragic thing.

Fortunately, the research is now showing that the most effective treatment even for individual issues may be both medication and psychotherapy. So there's more balance at least, in the promoting the benefits of talking to somebody.

I think this medicalization trend fits also with the depersonalization of our world—that we've got big anonymous cities and big anonymous systems, so the whole project of human connection has been depersonalized.
RA: Can you say a little bit more about that?
AN: Well, you know, families are moved around from place to place. People work in corporations where they're pretty anonymous within those big organizations where there's a lack of a human community. People live in suburbs, miles away from any intimate relationships. And they live online. So there's this huge machinery here of interfering with the intimate relationship, the small town, the family that lived on three blocks in New York City. That whole world has changed.

I think in some ways the Internet is a countervailing trend in that it tries to connect people in ways that really facilitate more communication. I mean, I'm on the phone or on iChat with my kids from Argentina and so forth. So we have this other thing—that, in the face of anonymity and abstraction, we have the capacity to connect with each other. So I feel the Internet has many negative things, but it's also got this possibility.
RA: That’s very true.
AN: I don't know about doing family therapy over the Internet. Maybe that's possible.
RA: That’s hard for me to imagine.
AN: Yes. Once Margaret and I were working with a family, and the husband had left the family and moved to London, and he left behind three very hurt teenage sons. And his ex-wife was a therapist, so she brought her kids and we worked on the absent dad stuff and the boys' grief. So I decided to do a speakerphone interview with him. We had the speakerphone sitting in the room on a chair among the family, and his voice would come out of that thing. These boys would look at it with this combination of rage and hurt. And he looked so diminished sitting there.

A New Look to the Future

RA: If I could just ask you one last question, looking yet again into the future, what do you think we can do about the ways that family therapy has been decimated?
AN: Golly. Give me a minute… I think the main thing we can do here is to provide deeper levels of support to therapists. You're going into the equivalent of systems warfare here, and you need a lot of support and help—you need to be able to work with people who believe in your world. So we start out with building in for the therapist a community of support, and we legitimize for therapists the need for support—intellectual support, peer supervision, supervision, psychotherapy—and help the therapist seek support, and validate the need. It's important not to underestimate what it's like to go into a clinic where nobody's doing family therapy and you're trying to do it. So that's the individual work with the therapist. So how do you negotiate the conditions of your job? How do you try to set conditions that are favorable to your being successful? Most of that has to do with having some buddies who believe in the way you do, and staying in touch.

The other tack is legislative and large-system intervention in ways that would validate psychotherapy and family therapy. I think we could do a better job of educating the public about the benefits of psychotherapy and family therapy. Most people haven't heard of the family approach. So I think legislatively we can work to get, for example, insurance reimbursement, and our big associations can help with that. We could do a much better job of educating the public, and we could do a much better job of supporting the struggles of young therapists. So there's a lot of work to be done there.
RA: Yes—very important work.
AN: I think so. But we need to start with belief that this is a valid thing to do, that it's important to do: some sort of ethical commitment to the world of psychotherapy and family therapy. It's not just a trade—it's something like a calling.
RA: Yes, that resonates very deeply with me. Thank you so much.
AN: I didn't have any worry about having enough to say, thanks to your excellent questions! This has been fun.