Whiteness Matters: Exploring White Privilege, Color Blindness and Racism in Psychotherapy

White Therapist as Racial Subject

Our profession is concerned with multicultural competence (I assume readers of this article are as well). Despite that, our canons of psychological theory remain euro-centric, yet are largely assumed to be universal; our assessment and diagnostic systems are biased in the same vein, while they are used as guideposts in courts of law, prison, schools, and medical venues; research largely makes assumptions of universality without qualification that population samples are overwhelmingly white; and our delivery of services, even the “culture” of psychotherapy itself, remains white-centric. Whiteness as the only representation of humanness is in the “air,” so to speak, of Western psychology, something many writers, researchers, and psychotherapists of color have written upon (see end of article for resources), and a few white authors have noted as well, Dr. Gina deArth1 among them.

In my experiences speaking and writing about racial identity and racism as a white person in general, it has most often been challenging creating dialogues with other white people. My experience is not an unusual one. More often than not, when racial identity and racism are discussed among white folks, we primarily focus upon the racial identity and racism outside of ourselves (in others, in institutions, in systems, in history, and so on) while also claiming an individual absolution from racism—well, I’m not racist. The two are contradictory and deny the socialization we have all experienced in the wider community of the United States if not in our families.

No white person can reasonably claim that they do not participate in and are not shaped by racial subjectivity and racism, yet this is one of the more common claims that arise in conversations between white folks. Nadia Bolz-Weber, author of Accidental Saints, and an anything-but-conventional white Lutheran pastor, expresses well how white folks are seduced to hide the influence white supremacy has had on us, and the impossibility of escaping the reality of being formed by that supremacy: “Like so many of us, I was born on 3rd base and told I’d hit a home run . . . the fact is, just because I don’t like racism or agree with it, that doesn’t mean it’s not still part of my makeup.”

There is not enough investigated, discussed, and written in psychology about the racial subjectivity of whiteness, that is, the varied lived experience including experience of privileges and participation in racism on levels varying from the personal to the institutional, as well as the meanings of being white. I am interested in exploring conversations about racial subjectivity and racism. I consider this a lifetime kind of practice, albeit an uncomfortable and certainly imperfect one. Engaging in an ongoing investigation into my lived experience of whiteness both on individual and relational levels is a vital part of being an ally to people of color, and to being a better therapist to all of my clients, akin to how my personal psychotherapy enhances my work with clients generally.

Stating that, past exchanges with white colleagues and friends come to mind—all emotionally charged, sometimes emotionally injurious on all sides, anything but calm. I know how vulnerable and even incendiary talking about white racial subjectivity and racism usually is, how many defenses arise, and how it can be so difficult. I brace myself already for the “review” feedback to this article, for example. I think white folks need more practice in these discussions, including myself.

As a white person, accounting for one’s own racial identity and racism, talking about the larger system of racism bestowing power and privilege, is typically a conversation stopper among white people. Attributing the suspended conversations among white folks to racism is certainly a part of the stagnation (at least in some cases) but does not entirely flesh out the sophisticated psychological dynamics in ways that can loosen up the tightness that chokes off genuine exchange. The obstacles to creating open dialogue seem to be about several factors, among them: white guilt; protecting privilege; the nature of trauma (racism and acts related to it) evoking blaming and shaming; the lack of practice white people have in talking productively to one another about racism; desires to maintain an all-good self; the lack of white racial identity development and awareness; and the significant discomfort of sitting with the realities of and felt gratitude for the enormous privilege and protection light skin brings in our daily lives.

Though white folks today may claim they did nothing to “deserve” this power and privilege, the acknowledgement alone does not give white folks a pass on critically examining our lack of curiosity regarding the lived experiences of whiteness and racism. Curiosity about these facets of our selves is one antidote to unconscious whiteness. My desire in this article is to begin pondering how the conversations about white racial identity, racism, and psychotherapy gets hijacked among white clinicians, and to explore ways I have found (imperfectly) helpful in continuing the conversation. While conversation is not enough in and of itself, it is integral to greater awareness and action.

All Good or All Bad

We cannot get away from messages that being white is not only a universal representation of human experience and authority, but also an idealized one. Even if our white family of origin was anti-racist, larger society and systems socialize us otherwise. Psychologically, this is akin to being raised in an environment where caretakers delight simply in our existence; our attachment is secure while getting bathed in that unconditional love. This becomes our baseline normative experience of relationship and expectations of other people. We know how a childhood environment like that contributes to self-perception in permeating ways that are unconscious and influence life course. White folks have been bathed in unconditional acceptance and idealization for white skin; we have to work to become conscious of how this has shaped our expectations of how we move, interact, and think in the world.

White folks interested in what I am writing about understand that it is good to be anti-racist, and bad to be racist. It’s good to be aware. No white person I know wants to be bad. An entirely individualistic focus on racism, however, essentializes the discussion and understanding of racism, it occludes exploration of white racial identity, and it raises defenses exponentially. While of course there are individual acts of racism, they are occurring within an inherently racist milieu whereby all white people are benefitting, regardless of individual actions. For example, as a profession we do not integrate in every aspect of clinical education—from intellectual inquiry to clinical training—multiple and multicultural points of view on what is pathological, diagnostic, healing, and so on. Other points of view taught in one-off multicultural competency courses are just that—other.

Talking about and thinking about white racial identity and racism as a binary good-bad is a way to ignore the complicated and uncomfortable parts. The African American scholar and filmmaker Omowale Akintunde writes: “Racism is a systemic, societal, institutional, omnipresent, and epistemologically embedded phenomenon that pervades every vestige of our reality. For most whites, however, racism is like murder: the concept exists, but someone has to commit it in order for it to happen.” Racism is not simply individual action, nor is combatting it simply about courses in multicultural competency.

In talking with my white peers as well as in my own self-reflections, the feeling of power due to racial identity is rarely consciously felt. Yet if we wait until we personally feel the social power of whiteness to validate the reality of it, nothing changes. Even if we are white and members of other oppressed groups of people on individual and societal levels such as being working-class, disabled, immigrant, or queer-identified, we may not have social power in the arena of economics, physical ability, native citizenship, or gender and sexual orientation identifications, however we nevertheless carry the robust social power of whiteness. There are studies upon studies validating the power of whiteness, let alone anecdotal evidence.

That it is difficult for white folks to talk with one another about racism or something racist that occurred in the moment (a microaggression, for example) is reflective of the positive reinforcement that silence among white people on the topic receives. The silence on racism is balanced only by the silence of white racial identity. Silence keeps the status quo; it also keeps everyone “comfortable,” and keeps white people connected to one another in “likable” fashion. When one white person breaks the barrier of silence, often he or she is shamed, ostracized, or defensively attacked by other white people. We are ejected from the group, placed in a binary of something like being disruptive, arrogant, myopic, or mean while the remaining silent members rest in being well-mannered (and defended). The white person who speaks up among white folks about racism often becomes the recipient of disavowed racism from other white people, something that has been observed in clinical encounters where white therapists disavowing their racism (and other unwanted characteristics) project them onto their clients of color.

Using Mindfulness to Notice Patterns of Prejudice

An example may help elucidate, and I will give one that begins on the individual level and then includes a group level. If I walk down the street in the evening and see a black man standing at the corner wearing a hoodie with his hands in his pockets and low-slung (sag) jeans, I might wonder about my safety—if even for a split second. That I wonder less, if at all, if it were a white man is not benign—nor is it an egregious act of violence. It is prejudiced, however, and shaped by racist socialization on a level outside of my family of origin. When I catch myself in such a moment of thinking, I don’t spiral into a guilt trip or any other self-critical trip, but rather note the manifold ways racism is part of me even though my parents did not raise me as a racist, and even though I participate in white ally-anti-racism activities, and even though I continue to educate myself about racism and have done so since I was in high school. The practice alone of mindfulness regarding racism makes it easier for me to see its ubiquity, and to talk about it as well since a mindfulness practice is also a practice of non-judgment.

My experience is that some white folks deny this kind of racism, which is impossible given socialization. When I attended a meeting of white therapists focused on racism and our profession, one of the therapists wondered if it would be a good idea for us to out ourselves to one another about racist thoughts and acts in order to reduce shame, build awareness, and enhance conversation.

The room of about 30 white therapists fell silent. After some time of silence, I spoke about a similar kind of story to the one in the example above and reflected that using mindfulness as a vehicle to uncovering racism, to me, is essential to deepening learning about racism and practicing unlearning racism on an individual level. No one else in the room spoke including the person who brought up the idea in the first place. After even more silence, the topic was changed to how “difficult” it is that the larger professional organization of which this group was a part had not considered ever focusing on racism and psychotherapy like “we” were doing, and the remainder of the meeting was a discussion focused on how the organization should change. Racism was located suddenly outside of the group of we white therapists.

DiAngelo describes similar patterns of interactions among whites such that the person breaking silence receives response from other whites ranging from attack to being ignored, and the group shifts focus to racism occurring outside of the group. It is so risky, so emotionally charged, and perhaps even threatening for white people to talk with one another about racism. Even as well intentioned as this group of therapists were, as a group we were not ready to really engage with one another around our racism.

Color blindness and the Costs of Unexamined Whiteness

“If we hold the perspective of colorblindness, it falls to us as individuals to make it on merit, on individual characteristics versus larger forces.” This means that folks who are unemployed and poor are so due to character rather than systems of oppression and the after-effects of transgenerational trauma that are set within those oppressive systems. If subscribing to colorblindness, psychologically we might consider that symptoms of paranoia, depression, and anxiety are universal and not influenced by living in a racist society, nor adaptive and normative, rather than pathological. While intellectually I think most white therapists would understand these concepts, applying them experientially is another matter.

If we are colorblind, we cannot examine both the privileges and the costs of our whiteness. We are literally blinded. Some white folks do not want to be “lumped in” with the white group, and I certainly can identify times when I feel the same, yet as it has been widely noted, regardless of our personal desires regarding white affiliation, we are not granted privileges as individuals but because of the lack of melanin in our skin. The white sociologist Dr. Amanda Lewis reflects that while examining whiteness can be challenging (because whites generally do not understand themselves as being a part of a white group), nevertheless it is vital to explore not only because of the aforementioned, but also because whiteness shapes sociological and psychological imagination.

In writing about whiteness in the psychological imagination, African American psychologist Dr. Jonathan Mathias Lassiter suggests costs of whiteness to white people; heightened defensiveness, emptiness, meaninglessness, disconnection, and loneliness are among them. I can feel all of these to greater or lesser extent along some kind of continuum when I begin to examine how white identity manifests in me moment to moment, and specifically when I am experiencing some privilege, aware of this, and at the same time feel conflicted about it. I find this is primarily a self-focused reflection, and seems wrapped up with the lack of interdependency whiteness rests upon. The maintenance of privileged whiteness requires subjugated “others,” even when we are unaware or unconscious of this. Recognizing the costs of unconscious whiteness is not an exercise of victimhood undermining racism people of color experience; it is a practice of noticing how socialization of privilege also cuts us off from greater meaning, connection, and openness.

Guilt, Shame and Blame

An African American client of mine once remarked on my shoes, more specifically how I maintained them (which is inattentively to say the least), and how if she would do the same thing with her footwear white people would interpret her poor care of her shoes as an example of laziness, as fulfilling stereotypes of African Americans. Immediately I heated up, and thoughts jumped in my head arguing with her point of view—wasn’t she exaggerating?—and then feeling horribly guilty and ashamed that I was thinking these thoughts about my client with whom I have worked and built strong attachment over years of treatment. Initially, I named the racism she was talking about and only because, I think, of our long-term therapy relationship did I feel courageous enough to share with her my internal process, feelings, and how I had to “check” myself before I spoke. It was not the first time the client and I had talked of racism and how it plays out in our relationship, and I know it will not be the last. Coming clean with my client dissipated the guilt and shame I was feeling—as well as the blame toward my client. The conversation also brought us closer together. As she remarked, she always feels she can trust me more when I take a chance in being so honest.

I cannot say that I would take that risk with all my clients of color, most likely due to aspects of my defensive process. Invulnerability is integral to unexamined white identity, and to racism. The wish to remain seen and felt in a “good,” well intentioned way, in a liberal way, in a way that is understood as conscientious, is brittle when we are not willing to also be seen as speaking or acting in a privileged or racist way—or defending and refusing to examine these reflections of self when called upon to do so. This kind of invulnerability, however, cements guilt, shame, and blame in place.

In her article describing psychotherapy with an African American client, Melanie Suchet, a white South African émigré and psychoanalyst in New York City, describes how white guilt, shame, and blame gets in the way of productive therapy with her African American client. As therapists, what is most vulnerable in us with any particular client is frequently where we falter in the process. The faltering can be productive if we can use it, process it and understand it. In terms of white clinicians, our socialized racism and lack of white racial identity development, the vulnerabilities of white guilt, shame, and blame related to privilege, power, and other facets of racism are played out in particular ways with clients of color, and numerous articles, including Suchet’s work, highlight these.

It seems to me that the trifecta of guilt, shame, and blame is also silently played out with white clients and white peers, sometimes voiced with disavowal. Among white folks, what we do with shame, blame, and guilt makes a difference. We may freeze, disengage, become enraged, or use the guilt or shame as defenses too, all allowing us to leave the conversation of racism and white racial identity behind. DiAngelo notes how discussions around racism among whites evoke common responses like anger, withdrawal, freezing, cognitive dissonance, and argumentation—in other words, quite a bit of defensiveness. She calls this white fragility. White fragility is an intimate companion of invulnerability, both inherently defensive, and both soaked in the trio of guilt, shame, and blame.

Continuing Education in Talking about Racism

In mental health professional meetings, I find it curious that white clinicians may not be interested in enrolling in anti-racism seminars such as the one I attended, nor to even take advantage of learning materials. “Some white psychotherapists have explicitly said that this kind of training is irrelevant to psychotherapy, or not concerned enough with emotional safety (of whites), and generally not necessary for therapists who are trained to listen deeply with empathy.”

Recently, a professional organization of which I am a part offered an excellent day-long seminar regarding the psychological pain of people of color. I find these kinds of workshops more or less well attended by white therapists, but they are limited in that they continue to focus on people of color as “the other”—which is more comfortable. It would be so useful for the multicultural competence, let alone for further growth among white clinicians, if we engaged in experiential (not intellectual) seminars on anti-racism such as those offered by StirFry Seminars and Consulting near where I live (I don’t work for them by the way, but offer them up as an example as I have participated in trainings there). I could see from that baseline kind of education, white therapists might develop additional seminars for further training such as countertransference racism, guilt, and shame; how to develop awareness of racism within us and how this impacts the therapeutic relationship, and so forth. If our conversations among all of us about racism are to deepen and widen, if our awareness is to expand outside the binaries of good and bad, continuing education about racism is necessary.

Uncovering White Racial Identity

Of course these stages are not abandoned once we pass through them, or at least that is not my experience. The nature of privilege is that we have a choice to not engage experientially and affectively the work of anti-racism in whatever ways we are able to do so. Our privilege as white folks is that we can dip in and out of this work, and we can choose what aspects in which we want to participate. I know that I dip in and out of the work myself, evidence of privilege and how the stages of identity development are not linear. I do this at times even while intending to further my awareness practices. I am still able to “break away” by choice, and sometimes I do. Inhabiting a sophisticated white racial identity, to me at least, is not a static state; I do not know how it could be as the nature of privilege is constant, whereas awareness tends to vacillate. I think of white racial development as a practice for this reason, and one that involves further dialogue with other white therapists, and ongoing education along the same lines.

Emotional Home

Living and practicing as a white psychologist I grapple with these questions: Have I recognized my privilege today? How have I used my privilege today, and to what do I attribute the privilege received? Psychologically, how do I hold the trauma of current and historical racism without defensively deflecting it? How do I practice daily recognition and understanding of microaggressions in which I participate? How does racism impact my clients and me, regardless of racial identity? How do my favorite psychological theories and practices possess an assumed universality of humanity when actually they are only about one group of human beings? How does my white subjectivity influence and shape my work in general?

There are no clean, clear, sure-fire answers for these ongoing questions of mine. It does seem to me, however, that psychological thinking around dynamics of defense, racial identity development, and trauma (racial, transgenerational, and otherwise), are all useful to such a vast, permeating, and incendiary topic as racism and white racial development. It would be fitting for all of us practicing in this profession of helping humanity to lend our energy to ongoing personal exploration, wider discussion, writing, and speaking publicly about these topics. It is vulnerable, yes, but within the vulnerability as we all well know is the seed of growth.

References

1. Dr. Gina deArth's works can be found here.

2. Dr. Monica Wiliams' blog, "Culturally Speaking" can be read here

Further Reading

Fox, Prilleltensky, and Austin (Eds). (2009). Critical Psychology: An Introduction. California: Sage.

Mesquita, B., Feldman Barrett, L., and Smith, E. (2010). The mind in context. New York: Guilford.

Nelson, J.C., Adams, G., & Salter, P.S. (2013). The Marley Hypothesis: Racism Denial reflects ignorance of history. Psychological Science, 24, 213-218

Phillips, N., Adams, G., & Salter, P. (2015). Beyond adaptation: decolonizing approaches to coping with oppression. Journal of Social and Political Psychology, 3 (1), pp. 365-387.

Salter, P. & Adams, G. (2013). Toward a critical race psychology. Social & Personality Psychology Compass, 7(11), pp. 781-793.

Photo by Gerry Lauzon, some rights reserved.

Losing Faith: Arguing for a New Way to Think About Therapy

The Taxi Ride

When I finally made my way to the curb, my taxi was nowhere to be found. Luckily, a group of attendees kindly offered to let me squeeze into the back seat of their already overly cramped cab. I jumped in and we sped off, weaving our way through downtown traffic to Washington Reagan Airport.

From the lively conversation, I surmised that the people in the cab worked together or at least knew one another. I wasn’t paying close attention to what was being said—still thinking about whether or not I would catch my flight—but their sense of enthusiasm was so infectious that to not listen quickly became a chore.

The topic was the diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) that had enjoyed a renaissance of popular and professional interest in the wake of 9-11. A new theory about the condition had been presented in one of the breakout sessions at the symposium. Something about how humans deal with trauma differently to animals and how this accounted for why our species developed PTSD and animals did not.

“Yeah,” one of the people went on to explain, “The presenter showed these excerpts from National Geographic films. You know, animals in Africa, on the Serengeti and stuff….” Eager to participate, another chimed in before the first could finish his thought, “Most of those animals are under constant threat by larger predators. But, even though they are hunted and chased relentlessly they don’t get post-traumatic stress disorder!”

Something about that last statement piqued my attention. I was feeling skeptical already and wondered, how do they, or the workshop leader for that matter, know that animals did or did not have PTSD? Anyone familiar with the literature knows that the diagnosis of the disorder in humans is tricky, with agreement between clinicians notoriously low. How could it be otherwise? There are 175 combinations of symptoms by which PTSD can be diagnosed. In fact, using the DSM criteria, it is possible for two people who have no symptoms in common to receive the same diagnosis!

“No, they don’t,” the first continued butting his way back into the conversation, “Because they shake it off.”

“Shake it off?” one of the others asked without a hint of skepticism in her voice.

“Yeah, they don’t repress their natural physiological response to traumatizing events the way we humans have been conditioned to.”

I could feel myself becoming agitated. “Here we go again, I mused, that old Freudian bogeyman, repression, dug up and represented in different words.” It was easy to see that I was the odd man out.

My mind raced back to lazy Sunday afternoons spent with my family watching Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom. I wondered, Had none of these people ever watched that program? Most of the animals on that and every other nature show I’d ever seen were so jittery from life on the plains it made me want to take medication.

Heads up and heads down, constantly checking, first here and then there, always on the lookout for the thing that might eat them. If anyone on the planet suffered from PTSD, it was those animals.

I turned back to the window, distracted by my inability to recall the name of the host of Wild Kingdom.

“So, what did he say you should do?” one of the group asked, and the second speaker began describing the treatment. To me, it sounded like a variation of the old abreaction technique. You know, helping people “discharge strangulated affects” by having them revisit unresolved traumas. The only difference was the shaking that followed the recollection or reliving of a traumatic event.

At this point, I started shaking—my head that is, from left to right, and back again. No, no, no, no, NO, I was thinking to myself with each turn. And if my response was any indication, it was clear that the “shaking” theory was bogus. I certainly didn’t feel any better. In fact, I was feeling more agitated.

Are you all daft? I wanted to scream. Use your heads, think critically for Heaven’s sake! Instead, looking out the window of the cab, I started imagining these well-intentioned practitioners trying out this new technique. Let me see if I understand your new approach, the sarcasm now dripping from my thoughts, you are working on a disorder that no one can diagnose with any reliability, using a method for which there is no evidence of effectiveness, based on an animal analog that in all likelihood does not happen in nature, and organized around an old Freudian idea that was discredited years ago. I was on a roll now, the invective flowing out of me. Hmm. Sounds great. Sounds like the history of “psycho” therapy…a never ending list of ephemeral fads applied to unspecified problems with unpredictable outcomes for which rigorous training is required. Great. Give it a go.

The intensity of my reaction took me by surprise. What was the matter with me? I wondered. It’s not as if I’d never heard such things before. Our field was full of this stuff: lay on this couch, talk to an empty chair, sit on this person’s lap, watch my finger wave back and forth, or one of my own contributions to the kooky cacophony, “Pretend a miracle happens….”

Where I was cynical, however, my fellow travelers were inspired. In response to any objection I might raise, I could hear them say, Well, maybe you just don’t work with enough of these people to see the value of the treatment. Then they would continue with the typical citation of the evidence used by clinicians to mute all such criticism: the much vaunted “personal experience.” Have you tried it? I did, and it works. At least that had been my experience whenever I made my doubts public.

We pulled up to the curb at the airport. After paying my fare, I muttered a quick “Thank you,” and bolted for the terminal. Sure, my connection was tight but I also wanted to escape. Believe me, it was nothing personal. Of late, I’d been avoiding conversations about therapy whenever I could.

The Epiphany

Before I knew it the pilot was announcing our final approach into O’Hare. And that’s when it hit me.

I could feel my chest tighten at the thought. I wasn’t burned out, depressed, or in the grips of a midlife crisis. It was something much worse. I’d lost my faith. I no longer believed in therapy….

The weeks and months following my epiphany were particularly bleak.

If I hadn’t been depressed before, I was certainly on the verge now. I’d been in love with the field. Now, the passion and commitment that had sustained me for nearly two decades of work as a therapist was gone. I had no energy, no zest. I felt completely adrift, purposeless.

Looking Back, Moving Forward

“Just stick with it,” my clinical supervisor, Bern Vetter, would say whenever I voiced my uncertainty, “everybody feels that way in the beginning.” At that point in my career the little experience I had made it abundantly clear that the practice of psychotherapy was a highly nuanced and complicated affair, requiring years of dedication and study to master. In short, it was not a profession for the impatient. The learning curve was long and steep. Given time, experience and, of course, further training, I had faith that the mountain could be scaled. Once on top, I’d be able to reach out with confidence and offer a helping hand to those struggling on their way up to a better, happier and more fulfilling life.

Looking back, I don’t believe my work as a beginning therapist was necessarily bad. I made a concerted effort to do all the appropriate therapist-like things I’d been taught—maintaining an “open” posture, reflecting feelings, avoiding advice giving, and so on.

I arranged my office to resemble those of experienced therapists I knew and admired, adding warmth and ambiance to the room.

For their part, my clients didn’t complain. Still, I wondered, Could they tell that I didn’t really know what I was doing? Did other therapists feel this way? If so, then why the hell didn’t they talk about it? Was their seeming self-assurance merely a confidence game? If not, then what was the matter with me? Why didn’t I get "it" the way others seemed to?

Bern would always counter, “This is a time to experiment,” in a reassuring voice. “Try some things on for size, see what fits, what the client likes and doesn’t like. In time, it’ll come.” I appreciated Bern’s patience and openness as my experience with other therapists wasn’t always as sympathetic.

I continued to explore, reading books and combing through the research literature. I also went to see everybody who was anybody on the lecture circuit: Barber, Ellis, Haley, Satir, Minuchin, Meichenbaum, Yalom, and Zeig—the entire therapeutic alphabet. As hard as I tried, however, my own work never seemed to equal that of these clinicians. Sometimes what I learned worked and other times it did not. On a few occasions, the new stuff I tried ended in unmitigated disaster.

Why wasn’t I getting “it” the way others—my co-workers, supervisors, book authors and workshop presenters—appeared to? Having always had a strong work ethic, I resolved to continue, reasoning that persistence would, as it often had in my life, eventually win the day. I still had faith.

I thought I’d died and gone to heaven when, shortly out of graduate school, I landed a job at the Brief Family Therapy Center (BFTC) in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I’d been dreaming about working at the small, inner-city clinic ever since I read Steve de Shazer’s Keys to Solution in Brief Therapy in one of the supervision groups I’d attended. In the first chapter of that book, de Shazer described being “plagued” by the same question I struggled with, “how do you know what to do?” Seeking to answer that question was his stated raison d’etre, the focus of his career and work at the center. I couldn’t imagine a better workplace.

Forget what you know or have come to believe about solution-focused therapy. The mechanical version that exists today bears precious little resemblance to the work being done at the time I joined the staff. On the contrary, the process at BFTC was fluid and dynamic, the atmosphere positively electric. We spent hours watching each other’s work, staying late most evenings, and even showing up on the weekends to record, review and discuss sessions.

As time passed, the confidence I had long sought gradually began to build. I thought about my old supervisor, Bern. Now I recognized, or thought at least, he’d been right all along. With experience, it’d become easier to see patterns in the process, markers that helped me to understand what was going on, told me what would be best to say and do. Together with Insoo Berg, the co-director of BFTC, I even wrote about what I had learned in my first book, Working with the Problem Drinker: A Solution-Focused Approach. In what would become a pattern for me, I used the writing process to “work through” and clarify my feelings about and understanding of the work.

I can still remember one of the first cases I watched at the Center. Brother Joel, a capuchin living and working with the downtrodden in Milwaukee, brought a thirty-something homeless man in for a session. The guy was so high that several team members and I actually had to come out from behind the one-way mirror and walk him around the room in order to keep him awake. All the while, Insoo continued to work, skillfully and patiently weaving a therapeutic conversation into the client’s brief moments of lucidity.

Two years later, the man returned for a follow up interview. Honestly, we didn’t even recognize him. Gone were the dirty and disheveled clothes, the smell and grime of the streets. In their place was a clean-shaven, even dapper looking, businessman. We learned that he was in a committed relationship and planning to marry in the near future. He was now the owner of a small business, had a home, his own car, and money in the bank. I can remember thinking that our former client was, in many respects, better off than me. And, all in a handful of sessions!

With experiences like these a regular occurrence, you can imagine my surprise when, in 1992, two independent studies failed to provide much empirical support for the work we’d been doing. Mind you, the reports did not say we were ineffective, merely that we were no more effective than any other group or treatment approach. Adding insult to injury, the same studies showed that we were not any more efficient either. In other words, we accomplished what we had in the same amount of time it took everyone else—a major blow, you can imagine, for a group known around the world as the Brief Family Therapy Center.

The bad news continued. “In depth interviews with our successful clients revealed that the therapeutic map we’d spent so much time developing—including interviewing strategies, techniques, and end of session homework assignments and interventions—mattered little in terms of outcome.” Indeed, although not reported in the published study, the only time our clients appeared to remember the technical aspects of our work was when they were experienced as intrusive and ineffective!

Needless to say, the sense of assurance that had been building since I’d joined the team at the Center was badly shaken. For months, I struggled to make sense of the results. The challenge, or so it felt to me at the time, was not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.

I vowed not to let the results obscure the bigger picture. What therapists did worked. I’d seen it myself on numerous occasions. My faith in the process of therapy was not misplaced. The problem was that the particular way we worked appeared to have little or nothing to do with our effectiveness.

In this regard, the two studies at BFTC had left me far from clueless about the ingredients of successful therapy. High on the list of strong predictors of a good outcome were the quality of the therapeutic relationship, the strengths and resources of the client, and the person of the therapist. The latter finding was particularly interesting. Despite the fact that all of the therapists at the center were practicing the same approach, outcomes varied considerably and consistently from one therapist to another. Most surprising of all, the two most effective therapists at the clinic were graduate students!

Revisiting Old Ground

Writing on this very subject back in 1936, Saul Rosenzweig, a psychologist in the same graduating class at Harvard as B.F. Skinner, suggested that the similarities rather than the differences between competing treatment models accounted for their effectiveness. Being a Lewis Carroll scholar, he labeled his findings, “The dodo bird verdict,” borrowing a line from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland that reads, “All have won and therefore all deserve prizes.”

Picking up where Rosenzweig left off, Jerome Frank argued in 1963 in his highly influential book, Persuasion and Healing: A Comparative Study of Psychotherapy, that Western therapies worked in precisely the same way and for the same reasons as healing rites across a variety of cultures. Whether practicing as a licensed therapist in Milwaukee or a shaman in the jungles of Papua, New Guinea, healers inspired hope, giving people plausible explanations for their pain and rituals to ease their suffering.

By the 1980’s, the quest to identify a group of common factors underlying effective psychotherapy had come full circle. Based on forty years of data, researcher Michael J. Lambert identified and even estimated the contribution of four pantheoretical contributors to success. As we’d found in the studies at BFTC, the therapeutic relationship and client emerged as large contributors to success—accounting for a stunning 70% of the variance in treatment outcome.

Coming in last place—tied for insignificance with placebo factors—was the particular model or technique a therapist happened to use, contributing a paltry 15%.

Early in my training, I’d been exposed to and dismissed the research on the common factors view for a number of reasons. First, it wasn’t sexy. After all, how stimulating is the idea that all models work equally well and for essentially the same reasons? What about transference? The Oedipal complex? Denial? What about defense mechanisms, insight, family structure, systems theory, double binds, indirect suggestions, paradox, self-disclosure, the DSM, confrontation, empathy, congruence, getting in touch with your feelings, talking to an empty chair, dysfunctional thoughts, self sabotage, and the biochemical imbalance? What about all those important things they taught me in school?

Being cast as our culture’s equivalent to a shaman was another reason for dismissing the common factors perspective. Sure, I knew there were those in the field who readily identified their work with native forms of healing, but I didn’t see these people accepting chickens in lieu of cash for their services.

No sir, they were right there alongside all the other therapists, trading on their professional credentials, and filling in their forms in order to receive insurance reimbursement. Anyway, I was a scientist. I’d been to college and I was going to graduate school. When I finished, my diploma would read “Doctor,” not witch doctor.

With each of my professors committed to one model or another—eclecticism was especially disdained—I’d quickly forgotten about the research supporting the common factors. Yet, there I was, some nine years after starting graduate school and three years post PhD, feeling a little like a kid who has just learned that his parents bought and placed all those presents under the Christmas tree. Sure, the end results were the same but Santa was dead, better said a fiction. In short, there simply was no magic in the method, no missing ingredient, no right way to do therapy.

The Comfort of Companions

We talked about the problems and challenges facing the field, including the rapid proliferation of new methods and techniques, claims about the effectiveness of particular approaches, and the ever-widening number of behaviors and concerns cast as problems requiring treatment. We also talked about the field’s flagging fortunes. By this time, many therapists were feeling the pinch, struggling to make ends meet. The golden age of reimbursement had vaporized in the mushroom cloud of managed care. As a result, psychotherapists were fast becoming what Nicholas Cummings had predicted nearly a decade earlier, that is “poorly paid and little respected employees of giant healthcare corporations.”

The public’s appetite for mental health services also appeared to be changing. For example, the self-help section at local bookstores—once jammed with latte-sipping, self-help junkies—suddenly dwindled, within a short period going from several aisles to one frequently disorganized and poorly stocked shelf. Meanwhile, average Americans were trading away their mental health benefits at alarming rates during contract negotiations with employers.

Apparently, change in the pocket is worth two therapists in the bush. In relatively short measure, the discussion shifted. We were not cynics. We were pragmatists who believed in therapy, so we were talking about solutions. All agreed that the field did not need another model of therapy. Depending on how one counted, anywhere from 250 to 1,000 approaches already existed. What clinicians from differing therapeutic orientations might benefit from, we reasoned, was a way of speaking with each other about the critical ingredients—about what works—in helping relationships. Our different cultures and languages had left us Balkanized as a field, unable to share, fearful of crossing theoretical boundaries, even distrustful of one another.

Notes scribbled on a cocktail napkin turned into a flurry of articles and three books, including Escape from Babel, Psychotherapy with “Impossible” Cases, and The Heart and Soul of Change. To be sure, all were works in progress, as much statements about our development as clinicians, as they were summaries of the research about “what works in treatment.”

Using the common factors as a bridge between treatment approaches, we spelled out a basic vocabulary for “a unifying language for psychotherapy practice.” In essence, we were advocating for a kind of informed eclecticism. Rather than being dedicated to a single model or approach, we argued that therapists could avail themselves of any technique, strategy, or theory as long as it empowered one or more of common factors and, importantly, made sense to the client. With regard to the latter, the research was clear: therapy was much more likely to be successful when it was congruent with the client’s goals for treatment, ideas about how change occurs, and view of and hopes for the therapeutic relationship.

Our message apparently struck a chord with clinicians. The books sold very well. In fact, The Heart and Soul of Change became one of the publisher’s best selling volumes ever—going on to win the Menninger prize for scientific writing. Feedback at workshops was also positive—glowing even. Heady stuff.

On reflection, however, I decided that the response was not all that surprising. After all, figuring out how to use the knowledge and skills one had to meet the needs of individual clients was what practicing therapists did. If nothing else, it was good business practice.

In my own work, I was making a concerted effort to follow the advice we were giving to others: literally, to put the client in the driver’s seat of treatment. More than ever before, I worked hard at setting aside my own ideas and objectives, purposefully attempting to organize the treatment around the client’s goals and beliefs. I spent more time listening and less time talking or asking “purposeful” questions. I also made sure that the suggestions I gave, and any interventions I used, were derived from the interaction.

The Illusion of Progress

Of course, we’d hoped that presenting the factors as principles rather than mandates would circumvent the problem, providing therapists with a flexible framework for tailoring treatment to the needs of the individual client without creating yet another model of treatment. After all, the research showed that clinicians believe that their skill in selecting therapeutic techniques and applying them to the individual client is responsible for outcome. Unfortunately, the data indicate otherwise. Confidence in our ability to choose the right approach for a given client is simply misguided. Indeed, when combined with other studies showing little or no effect for training or experience on treatment outcome, the hope we’d felt at the outset of our work began to feel painfully naïve.

Around this time, I stumbled across an article I’d read a few years earlier while preparing to write Escape from Babel. A psychologist named Paul Clement had collected and published a quantitative analysis of outcomes from his 26 years of work in private practice. The results had alternately intrigued and frightened me. The good news was that 75% of his clients rated improved at the end of treatment, and quickly. The median number of sessions over the course of his long practice was 12. The bad news, however, was particularly bad in my opinion. In spite of believing—in fact “knowing” that he’d “gotten better and better over the years”—the cold, hard fact of the matter was that he was no more effective at the end of his career than he’d been at the beginning.

At this point, I recognize some readers might be thinking, “Hey, Scott, don’t miss the big picture here! What Clement did with his clients not only worked, but also worked in a relatively short period. So what if this clinician did not improve over time?” Who can argue with success? However, if we are to move forward to better, more effective practices, we need to understand why therapy works. The devil or for that matter, the saint, is in the details. The tradition of the field to pile model upon model and technique upon technique, year after year, has not answered the question. It deceives all of us into believing, as did Clement, that we are getting better when in fact we are not. An illusion of progress, in the end, is hardly progress.

And then the cab ride. The lightening rod. The flashpoint. The final straw that broke this therapist’s back. Alas, it seemed that we therapists would believe almost anything. The “shaking treatment” notwithstanding, the entire history of our field was proof.

Fashions of the Field

Just as studies were beginning to show a high casualty rate among clients in some of these popular experiential treatments, the field’s interest in “letting it all hang out” was reigned in and zipped up. From feelings, the field switched to behaviors and thoughts, then to dysfunctional families. Skinner, Beck, Minuchin, Palazolli, and Beatty among others, became icons; systematic desensitization, confrontation of dysfunctional thoughts, and self-help groups the best practice. The process only continues, morphing most recently from the “decade of the brain,” into a “greatest hits of the field” version known as the “biopsychosocial” approach. The so-called “energy therapies” are all the rage; drugs plus evidence-based psychotherapies now considered the “brew that is true.”

With the speed of therapeutic “developments” rivaling changing skirt lengths and lapel widths on a French fashion runway, who could trust anything the field said? We were like the weather. If you didn’t like the way things were, all you needed to do was wait five minutes. Chances are we’d be saying something different. Remember the multiple personality disorder craze? Where have they all gone anyway?

I’d completed one of my first clinical placements at a hospital that had an entire wing of an inpatient unit dedicated to treating people with “Dissociative Disorders.” The “multiples” were coming out of the woodwork. It seemed like an epidemic with the average daily census at the unit exceeding the total number of cases reported in the literature over the last 100 years!

I could go on and on. In fact, all the way back to Benjamin Rush’s time more than 300 years ago. With the same aplomb that we modern helpers tout the benefits of passing fingers back and forth in front of peoples eyes at regular intervals—don’t forget the “cognitive weave” now or it won’t work—the experts of the day were reporting “significant improvement” and “a return to normal life” in the majority of sufferers tied to a wooden plank and spun into unconsciousness, or blindfolded and dropped unexpectedly through a trap door into a tank of freezing water. Of course, we’d like to think that we’re different, that we’ve come along way since then, are more advanced now. And yet, that has been the claim of every generation to come along. Simply put, it is an illusion. “The same research that proves therapy works shows no improvement in outcomes over the last 30 or so years.” In short, we keep inventing the wheel; each era framing the causes and cure within the popular language and science of the day.

More Placebo Than Panacea?

Initially, I was hesitant about sharing my experience with other clinicians. I’m glad I eventually did as I quickly learned I was not alone. A few were even more discouraged than I was. Others still believed in therapy, but had grown weary of the hype attached to it. To these experienced therapists, the field lacked a memory. The old and forgotten frequently passed as new and the new just wasn’t that different. For many, what had started out as much a calling as a vocation had in time become drudgery, just another job.

The Therapist’s View

Sadly, for all the competition, genuflecting, and moaning about what therapy is, precious little attention has been paid to the client’s experience. No one in the cab that day, for example, asked, or even considered, what a client might feel about shaking like a wild animal. Would it be humiliating? Degrading? Helpful? Or, just plain nonsensical? Neither was there any discussion of what the client wanted, what they might like. No, it was all about us. Now, we knew what to do, what they needed. Even all the recent talk about client strengths and collaborating with clients smacks of “us.” Again, we are in charge, this time liberating client strengths and deciding that collaboration is a good idea. In fact, that’s what my journey as a therapist had been about from the outset: me, me, me.

Frankly, shifting my attention, changing the focus of my search away from me and toward the client, is what kept me from abandoning the field.

Is Client Feedback the Key?

Our own work is based on two consistent findings from the research literature:

1. Clients’ ratings of the therapeutic relationship have a higher correlation with engagement in and outcome from psychotherapy, than the ratings of therapists;

2. A client’s subjective experience of change early in the treatment process is one of the best predictors of outcome between any pairing of client and therapist, or client and treatment program.

Given these results, we simply ask clients to complete two very brief, but formal scales at some point during each session—one, a measure of the client’s experience of change or progress between visits, the other an assessment of the relationship. The entire process takes about 2-3 minutes per visit.

At this point, we’ve collected client feedback on some 12,000 cases—significantly more when our data is combined with that of other researchers following a similar line of inquiry using different measures. Consistent with the results from previous studies, we’ve found that the particular approach a clinician employs makes no difference in terms of outcome, including medication. On the other hand, providing real time feedback to clinicians has had a dramatic effect. Over a six-month period, success rates skyrocketed, improving by 60%. More important, these results were obtained without training therapists in any new therapeutic modalities, treatment techniques, or diagnostic procedures. In fact, the individual clinicians were completely free to engage their individual clients in the manner they saw fit, limited only by their own creativity and ethics.

Two large healthcare companies have moved in this direction and have eliminated the “paper curtain” that has been drawn over modern clinical practice. All I can say is, “It’s about time,” as none of these time-consuming activities have any impact on either the quality or the outcome of treatment.

Other intriguing results emerged. Recall the study cited earlier about the superior outcomes of the two novice therapists at the Brief Family Therapy Center? Combing through our own data looking for factors accounting for success, we noticed dramatic differences in outcome between therapists. Most, by definition, were average. A smaller number consistently achieved better results and a handful accounted for a significant percentage of most of the negative outcomes.

Similar differences were observed between treatment settings. Clinics that were in every way comparable—same type and severity of cases, clientele with similar economic, cultural, and treatment backgrounds, staff with equivalent training and the like—differed significantly in terms of outcome. When it comes to psychological services, it appears that unlike medicine, “who” and “where” are much more important determinants of success than what treatment is being provided.

If you are wondering what accounts for the variation in outcome between therapists and treatment settings, you’re not alone.

We did too. Yet, after parsing the data in every conceivable way, we came up largely empty handed. We did notice that therapists who were the slowest to adopt and use the scales had the worst outcomes of the lot. If the feedback tools are viewed as a “hearing aid,” this may mean that such clinicians didn’t listen, in fact were not interested in listening to the client. One therapist claimed that his “unconditional empathic reception” made the forms redundant.

Truth is, however, we really do not know what accounts for the difference. And frankly, our clients, the consumers of therapeutic services, don’t care—not a wit. They just want to feel better. For them, outcome is all that matters. It’s what they are paying for.

Intriguingly, our experience, and that of other researchers such as Michael Lambert and Jeb Brown, indicates that client feedback may be the key.

Does the client think that the therapeutic relationship is a good fit? Do they feel heard, understood, and respected? Does the treatment being offered make sense to them? Does the type, level, or amount of intervention feel right? Do any modifications made by the therapist in response to feedback make a difference in the client’s experience of the treatment? If so, is the client improving? If not, then who or where would be a better choice?

Let me say just say that I am not selling our scales. You can download the measures for free from our website; however, I’d be cautious about doing even that, as finding the “right” set of scales for a given context and population of clients requires time and experimentation.

The Future

It just doesn’t. Rather, one-by-one, clients and therapists pair up to see whether this relationship at this time and this place will, in the eyes of the client, make that all important difference. Sometimes it’ll sizzle, other times it’ll fizzle. Sometimes we’ll both want and be able to make the adjustments necessary to connect, other times we won’t. In some instances, a perfect match on paper will simply lack the chemistry needed to sustain it in reality. That is the nature of relationships. In the end, no amount of training or experience will enable us to “marry everyone we date.”

It’s true. I’ve lost my faith in therapy. Better said, my faith was misplaced from the outset. In part, because of my training, in part because of the broader “assembly line” culture in which we all live, I’d thought that day would come when, equipped with the tools of the trade, I’d finally be able to execute my job safely and effectively. We were like any other profession. Where physicians had a scalpel and prescription pad, we had insight and interventions; where a carpenter used a hammer and nails, I would use interviewing strategies, homework assignments, and the alliance to build my clients more satisfying lives. When that didn’t work, having never found solace in attributing treatment failures to client resistance or pathology, I would wonder as any good journeyman, what critical skill I lacked.

At length, I’ve come to accept that I cannot know ahead of time whether my interaction with a particular person on a given day in my office will result in a good outcome. Neither is all my knowhow, years of training and experience any guarantee. Our grand theories, clever techniques, even our best efforts to relate to and connect with others are empty—full of potential, yes, but devoid of any power or significance save that given to them by the person or people sitting opposite us in the consulting room. Thinking otherwise is not a demonstration of our faith, but actually conceit. The promises and potential notwithstanding, we simply have to start meeting and then ask, can they relate to us, to what we’re doing together at the moment? I know they will tell us. I now also have faith that, no matter the answer, the facts will always be friendly.

Acknowledgments

  The author wishes to thank his colleague and friend Mark A. Hubble, Ph.D. for his tireless and invaluable assistance in the preparation of this article. This article was originally published in Psychotherapy in Australia and is reproduced here by kind permission of the author.

References

Berg, I.K. & Miller, S.D., (1992) Working with the Problem Drinker: A Solution-Focused Approach, Norton.

Clement, P. W. (1994), Quantitative evaluation of more than 26 years of private practice. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 25 (2), 173-176.

Cummings, N.A. (1986). The dismantling of our health system: Strategies for the survival of psychological practice. American Psychologist, 41(4), 426-431.

Duncan, B.L., Hubble, M.A. & Miller, S.D., (1997), Psychotherapy with Impossible Cases: the Efficient Treatment of Therapy Veterans, Norton.

Fancher, R. T. (1995), Cultures of Healing: Correcting The Image Of American Mental Health Care: W H Freeman & Co.

W.H. Freeman. Frank, J. D. (1973), Persuasion and Healing: a Comparative Study of Psychotherapy: John Hopkins University Press.

Hubble, M. A.,Duncan, B.L. & Miller, S.D. (1999) The Heart and Soul of Change: What Works in Therapy: American Psychological Association.

Miller, S.D., Duncan, B.L. & Hubble, M.A., (1997) Escape from Babel: Norton.

Rosenzweig, S. (1936), Some implicit common factors in diverse methods in psychotherapy, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 6, 412-415.

 

Brian McNeill on the Art of Supervision

What is Effective Supervision?

Greg Arnold: Brian you’ve been in the field of psychotherapy for over thirty years and you’ve done a great deal of research and work in the area of supervision. My first question is kind of a big one. It seems to me there’s more disagreement than ever in the field about what works in psychotherapy. How do we know what effective supervision is if we can’t even agree on what effective therapy is?
Brian McNeill: That’s a very good question. I think my reading of the psychotherapy literature might be a little bit different from yours, in that I see research on effectiveness of psychotherapy converging into what’s known as the “common factors” across divergent therapies. Wampold and his colleagues did a great deal of research on these factors in his most recent edition of the Great Psychotherapy Debate. Their research suggests primarily that we need to get away from the idea of manualized treatments, especially for training programs, where there’s way too much emphasis on it. I know it’s easy, I know it gives students something to get a handle on, but it discounts those common factors that account for so much of the variance across diverging approaches—relationship building skills, therapist qualities, world view—things that are now consistent with what APA has adopted as evidence-based psychology practice.
GA: So if you focused on the common factors you’d be well in the wheelhouse of accepted clinical science?
BM: Yes
GA: But you said it’s harder than just teaching a manualized treatment. Why do you think there is such a strong pull to fall back on a mechanistic view of the work that we do and to teach it through memorization of knowledge. Why is that so attractive and easy?
BM: I think it’s very attractive particularly for beginning counselors, because it provides a template for what to do in a given session. For example, for many cognitive behavioral approaches we set the agenda in the first 10 minutes; the next 10 to 15 minutes we review homework, and then we get into the agenda for the session.

It has its place at times, but I think it’s overused because it helps reduce a lot of that initial anxiety in beginning therapists, which comes from not knowing what to do if a session doesn’t go as planned. If the client stops talking, for example, it gives them something to fall back on. It’s harder to go in and listen very closely, very carefully—to really attempt to understand what your clients are saying as well as what’s not said and what the meaning is behind non-verbal behaviors, voice inflection. In other words, what a client is not saying, but trying to communicate nonetheless.
GA: Is there an attraction to the manualized approach from the supervisor’s point of view?
BM:
A manualized approach is easier than trying to train your students to be more reflective, or to examine themselves in terms of who they are as a person how that impacts their professional practice.
I think it gives supervisors a break in the sense that if you’re promoting a treatment manual approach, it’s much easier to go in there and say, “Okay, you followed these directions correctly. You could maybe have included these items on your agenda, or reviewed things in a different way, or implemented these particular kinds of cognitive challenges, or engaged in more of a Socratic dialogue.” A manualized approach is easier than trying to train your students to be more reflective, or to examine themselves in terms of who they are as a person how that impacts their professional practice.
GA: Easier in terms of the supervisor’s anxiety?
BM: Yes, absolutely.
GA: So it’s more comfortable for each party—the supervisee and supervisor—to presume this mechanistic view of a manualized treatment and technical rationality, but they’re missing so much juicy, nutritious, formative development. What are they missing there?
BM: From the model that I work from, I believe that what they’re missing are the personal aspects that really play a large part in this journey to becoming an effective psychotherapist. I like the idea of competencies and the competency movement, and I think it provides good kinds of behavioral anchors for various stages of therapist development, but what they’re missing is the journey and the process of what it takes to become an effective therapist. That’s where therapists need to integrate their personal identity with their professional identity. To look at who they are as a person, how that impacts their work in this field, how it impacts their relationships with their clients, how they can engage in reflective practice and be self aware in their interactions with their clients.

Especially from an interpersonal process orientation, how they can use their self-reflections, their feelings in the session, in the moment, in a way that’s effective and helpful for clients, by sharing their perceptions, by giving clients feedback in the moment—those kinds of interactions.

Are Counselors Selected or Grown?

GA: Congruence, immediacy, using their human instrument, being a real person, being integrated—that’s hard work. What is the process of that journey you’ve identified through your research. Since it needs to be personal, and folks can’t hide behind their manuals, isn’t the success of the work tied to the actual person of the therapist? In other words, are counselors selected or grown? Who do we keep and who do we kick out? Are they a tomato plant or are they a diamond in the rough?
BM: Well, to me they’re grown. I know a lot of people gravitate to our field because they believe that they have some natural helping abilities or skills; they’ve maybe been told by friends that they’re good listeners and whatnot, but I think while that can be a nice start for folks, we still need skills and abilities that only training can provide. Becoming a therapist is different than becoming a biologist, or an engineer, in that it requires self-examination and a very high level of self-awareness.
GA: Can anyone undergo that process successfully?
BM:
I do believe that people who are motivated to really want to help others can learn the skills to be effective in this field.
Yeah, if you’re willing. If you are motivated enough, then just about anyone can go through that process. People who are resistant to self-examination are definitely going to struggle in this field. If you’re suffering from a personality disorder, it’s going to be much harder to engage in that kind of self-examination and be insightful. But for the most part, I do believe that people who are motivated to really want to help others can learn the skills to be effective in this field
GA: So barring real outliers, if you engage in this process of self-reflection and vulnerable, non-defensive engagement with training, you’re going to develop these capacities for using yourself and therapy in a way that is effective?
BM: Yes
GA: What does it say about the field that many doctoral programs in psychology are harder to get into than medical school? I’ve seen one spot per 360 applicants at certain programs and there are all these aptitude requirements to set you apart.
BM: I think that is where we’re still very far behind. I never have believed that the traditional selection variables of college GPA and GRE scores have ever been predictive of someone’s interpersonal skills or abilities to interact personally on the level that we do as clinicians and therapists.

With my program, and I know others out there as well, we try to expand those selection variables a bit, but it’s still very difficult. We try to read into what could be some of those qualities through letters of recommendations or statements of purpose, or past life experiences, a kind of outlook—variables that just aren’t very easy to quantify.

The Developmental Approach to Supervision

GA: So you’ve expanded the selection criteria, you get the individuals selected for this privilege, then how do you balance the inherent dual relationship built into supervision? If someone is operating on your license, there’s a tension between oversight—where you have to think of client safety and liability and the reputation of your clinic—and the more humanistic, nurturing role of standing behind trainees when they make mistakes, which are essential to learning, but they also pose a liability. So how do you balance your gatekeeping role and your role as a supervisor tasked with nurturing their development?
BM:
We are thankfully moving away from the idea that to be an effective supervisor you just need to be an experienced effective clinician.
We are thankfully moving away from the idea that to be an effective supervisor you just need to be an experienced effective clinician. Over the past 30 years we have come to understand that these are very different domains. It’s taken awhile, as you can see from the just recently published supervisor competencies that the APA put out.

We now have more of a developmental approach to supervision. We know that beginners are going to be exhibiting certain kinds of qualities and have certain needs, versus intermediate or advanced trainees. It takes a skilled supervisor to assess where a given trainee is at developmentally and to provide the appropriate supervision environment that is going to enhance acquisition of skills—not only in terms of interventions, but abilities to be self-reflective, to develop as a therapist personally and professionally.
GA: How does a person go from a lay person, totally uninitiated through the whole journey of maturation to a great clinician?
BM: We look at three levels of psychotherapist development. At the beginning level we have trainees that are obviously just entering the field. It’s a novel situation for them and they’re typically highly invested. In most programs, probably 80% of your students want to be clinicians, even though we do obviously take a scientist practitioner kind of approach.

It’s anxiety producing for beginners, and as supervisors we need to help them reduce that anxiety, to help them take the focus off themselves early on during sessions and give them some structure and support. We focus on formulating relationships with their clients and learning those important listening skills.

Then we look at dependency versus autonomy. Obviously a beginning student is going to be very dependent upon their supervisor for structure, direction, and support. We look at self-awareness, both in the cognitive and affective realms and, again, a beginner is not going to be very self-aware in terms of how they come off in a session.

We believe that if you attend to the appropriate level of structure, direction and support, especially at the beginning level, that helps them progress onto an intermediate level.
GA: Let’s hang out at level one for a second. What could go wrong at that level?
BM:
Students get anxious. They feel like they need to do something, that listening isn’t enough.
Students get anxious. They feel like they need to do something, that listening isn’t enough. And that’s when they want to fall back on a manualized approach, but even a manualized approach, at least in my mind, is not going to be effective unless you have that base of all effective therapeutic intervention and that is the relationship. Things can go awry if students aren’t acculturated to the research about the therapeutic relationship being the basis of all later therapeutic intervention.

That’s the thing that I harp on the most, because I think that that’s what I see going awry the most. The lack of appreciation for developing those basic interpersonal skills early on.
GA: Really believing and internalizing that value, that this relationship is really important to cultivate.
BM: Yes, and that I need to effectively listen and communicate empathy.
GA: What about for the supervisor in this level? What can get in the way of them providing what the student needs at level one?
BM: Well, much like the therapeutic relationship, the supervisory relationship serves as the base of any kind of supervisor effectiveness as well. If for whatever reason the trainee and the supervisor don’t hit it off personally, the supervision isn’t likely to go well. I see that the most where the supervisor is not focusing in on the beginning trainee’s needs; they take an old line perspective that they shouldn’t be providing advice to their supervisees.
GA: Let them squirm. Encourage autonomy.
BM: Yeah, sink or swim. Or we’ll also see supervisors get hung up on their approach to psychotherapy and apply it to supervision. So if they’re very psychodynamic or interpersonally oriented, they want to get in there with the beginning supervisee and start processing with them, whereas the supervisee is really more concerned about what do I do with this client in the next session.

The Adolescent Stage

GA: So assuming all goes well and the supervisor is able to build a great supervisory dyad, attending to the person as an individual in an empathic way that builds a relationship and then providing structure to mitigate their anxiety and then the supervisee is able to get out of their own head, cultivate some self-awareness. They’re starting to be able to balance the focus on the clients, all that stuff. We move into a new intermediate stage.
BM: They then move into second stage or level two. At this point they’ve had some experiences with success in their interventions with clients and they’ve also had some failures. In other words, they’ve been through a couple of semesters of actually seeing clients and engaging in clinical work, so they have a greater sense of the complexity involved in providing psychotherapy. They’ve come to the realization that maybe it’s not as easy as they thought it might be.

It’s hard at times. Clients don’t come back and you’re left asking yourself what happened. Or the client is very resistant. In these cases, the supervisee’s motivation then can fluctuate—they start to question themselves and in some cases they might question whether they’re suited for this field because of some of the failures that they’ve experienced.

At the same time, hopefully they’ve had some success and so they want to develop a sense of autonomy or independence. They are becoming more self-aware. They’re not only able to focus on what they’re experiencing during the session, but they start to be able to focus in and sometimes at this level maybe a little bit too much towards what the client’s experience is.
A pitfall for students in the intermediate stage is that they can get a little bit overly enmeshed in their client’s issues.
A pitfall for students in the intermediate stage is that they can get a little bit overly enmeshed in their client’s issues.

This calls for a different kind of supervisory environment—one where you have to give them a little bit more autonomy. You do have to allow them to try out things that they’re interested in. Let them make some decisions. Of course, overriding all of this is the concern of client welfare, so you constantly have to monitor client welfare and make sure that ultimately your trainees are still following what you would see as required kinds of interventions in the interest of client welfare. But, they want to be able to come up with some more things on their own. They’re less dependent upon the supervisor. And so you’ve got to give them some leeway here.

They’re also more open to some examination of who they are as a person and how that impacts their clinical work. In fact, at this stage they really want that kind of self-examination. They want to look at transference, counter transference kinds of reactions and those kinds of implications because they’re getting a little bit more advanced in their abilities, their skills, their knowledge. So you have to be flexible as a supervisor and be able to assess where your trainee is at.

The analogy we draw is that it’s almost like dealing with an adolescent. They’re gaining some skills and perhaps they want to demonstrate their autonomy.
The analogy we draw is that it’s almost like dealing with an adolescent. They’re gaining some skills and perhaps they want to demonstrate their autonomy. If you can’t lighten up a bit, or deal with that kind of therapeutic adolescence, it’s going to create some resistance, and even some rebellion at this point. If you want to just stay with a completely structured kind of approach of always directing your trainee, we’re saying that that’s not going to work at this stage. You have to help them through stages or periods where they feel like their motivation is low because they’re discouraged with some clients or certain client types. You have to be able to identify that when you’re reviewing recorded sessions.

In that sense it does take a lot of work on the part of the supervisor to accurately assess and intervene with their trainees to foster their continued development as a therapist.
GA: It sounds like it could be a really rewarding time for everyone involved.
BM: Yes, absolutely. It can be very challenging, but ultimately very rewarding.
GA: So take me through level three really quickly.
BM: At this point, we’re probably looking at a trainee at the advanced stage of level two moving off into internship. Typically what we would see as a level three trainee is in my mind developed during that internship year.

They’ve kind of weathered that storm of level two in terms of that dependency/autonomy conflict and they’re able to pretty much operate at an independent level. Motivation is high. They understand the complexities of this endeavor of our field. They go into their work with an understanding that, yeah, there’s going to be successes but there’s going to be some failures, there’s going to be difficult clients. There’s going to be some client types or populations or diagnostic categories that I work best with and others that maybe just push my buttons and that I’ve got to be careful with.
GA: We can’t help everybody all the time.
BM: Exactly. They demonstrate that high level of self-awareness and self-insight on both cognitive as well as affective levels. They’re self-aware enough to know that if there’s something that isn’t working for them, if they need some help on something, or if they don’t have the experience in a given domain—maybe marriage and family therapy as opposed to doing individual therapy—they know and have the awareness to consult with somebody run it past their supervisor.

And they’re not going to be reluctant to do that. They just understand that that’s really part of what they need to do to develop their skills, and that ethically that’s what’s called for. Hopefully that occurs by the end of internship or is fully developed out there with some post-doctoral supervision. That’s what we envision as the advanced psychotherapist and one that hopefully develops into later years as a master psychotherapist.
GA: Talk about post-doctoral supervision, where you’ve got your degree but you’re not yet licensed because you still have 1500 hours to complete [in some states].
BM: Post-doctoral supervision used to be in name only. As long as you had an identified supervisor, it really wasn’t necessary to meet or document. Maybe if you had a problem or some questions you’d go and consult with your post-doc supervisor. It was also the norm that your post-doc supervisor just had to be a clinician with three years of experience.

I think we have made progress on that front, too. For example, APA and our programs now requiring training in supervision.
GA: Many programs still don’t require that, though.
BM: It puzzles me how programs can get accredited by saying that they offer a workshop on supervision, or they implement a module during practicum training. That’s really not enough, but I think that’s the case with the majority of programs.

In that sense I’m happy to see APA publish the supervisor competencies, which I think is going to help a lot. More strictly enforcing that APA requirement that all trainees receive training in supervision is going to help.
GA: What’s the risk of this all-lip-service post-doctoral supervision? What’s the pitfall of someone who says, “Oh, I’m level three, I’m done growing. I don’t need consultation.”
BM: Well, if an advanced trainee has that attitude, that’s definitely problematic. More often than not there are areas where they need to develop and to grow, as well as weaknesses they need to attend to.

We run the risk of just assuming that because someone has completed their coursework and internship and training requirements that that’s all there is. The journey does continue to becoming a master therapist and some of those qualities manifest themselves later down the road. Experience matters and learning doesn’t stop. You can always learn from a mentor at any point in your career.
GA: Forever.
BM: Yes, absolutely.
GA: In closing, pretend I’m your student and I am thinking about what to do with my career and I’m saying, “This supervision stuff is a lot of work. It’s not compensated very well. The field doesn’t seem to value it very much. I’m not sure I’m going to pursue supervision in my career.” How would you talk me into it?
BM: I would say that a lot of clinicians gravitate to training programs at the internship and post-doc level because it’s tough work to just be seeing clients all the time. It’s easy to get burned out just seeing clients.
Supervising can be a nice break, a way to stay current, and also just really enjoyable to have the opportunity to work with trainees.
Supervising can be a nice break, a way to stay current, and also just really enjoyable to have the opportunity to work with trainees. The relationship with trainees can be long-lasting, and you may get calls from them in the future for advice not just about clients, but about their careers or other aspects of their lives. It’s very rewarding to have the wisdom that you’ve developed over a number of years valued later on.
GA: I’m sold. We all must go forth and propagate quality supervision.

Any closing thoughts to share with our readers, your wisdom from these 30 years of studying this and experiencing it personally?
BM: Well, I listen to a lot of music, a lot of jazz. And I draw a lot of parallels for how we operate in the moment as clinicians, as supervisors based on our accumulated experience and skills. One of my idols, a jazz bassist named Charlie Hayden, passed away recently, and I remember reading an interview with him in which he said, “to be a good musician, to really communicate as a good musician, you have to be a good person.” What he meant was a good, humble individual who is willing to look closely at him or herself and implement that humility in their work.

I strongly believe that as clinicians, and by extension trainers and supervisors, that if we work on being a good person—and that can take many forms in terms of personal development, spirituality, etc.—it helps us to be good clinicians, good supervisors, trainers of our students. And it affects our clientele. So I tell my students all the time to be a good clinician, try to do your best to develop yourself as a good person.
GA: It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for sitting with me.
BM: Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Allan Schore on the Science of the Art of Psychotherapy

David Bullard: Allan, you are known for integrating psychological and biological models of emotional and social development across the lifespan. You’ve done a great deal of research and writing suggesting that the early developing, emotion-processing right brain represents the psychobiological substrate of the human unconscious described by Freud. Your work has been an important catalyst in the ongoing “emotional revolution” now occurring across clinical and scientific disciplines.

I’ve been watching my own process while getting ready for this interview, with a lot of left-brain work: reading, taking copious notes and thinking, and anxiously trying to figure out the structure for this interview. After all, it isn’t everyday one gets to interview a person called “the American Bowlby,” and whom the American Psychoanalytic Association has described as “a monumental figure in psychoanalytic and neuropsychoanalytic studies!” But essentially, this will be a conversation, and
I’d like to begin with a quote attributed to Jung, involving a graduate student who went to him, inquiring as to what he could do to become the best therapist possible. Jung said, —loosely translated—“Well, go to the library and read and study everything good that’s ever been written about the art and science of psychotherapy, and then forget it all before you sit down to peer into the human soul.”

It occurs to me, having followed your work for a while—most recently your writing about right brain communication in psychotherapy—that Jung’s quote may be partly what you’re writing about.
Allan Schore: Absolutely. The title of my book, The Science of the Art of Psychotherapy (2012), attempts to more clearly understand the relationship between the two, because on the one hand, as so much clinically relevant research now shows us, there is a science that underlies the clinical domain. And there is a certain amount of information and knowledge that we as clinicians must have in order to succeed in the particular area of expertise that we’re in—psychotherapeutic change processes.

Yet, at the same time it’s also an art, something that is extremely subjective and personal. For most of the last century it was thought that subjectivity was outside the purview of science. But we now understand psychotherapy changes more than overt behavior and language—it also acts on subjectivity and emotion. As you know, the left hemisphere is dominant for language and overt behavior; the right for emotion and subjectivity. This dichotomy fits nicely with left versus right brain functions. The two cerebral hemispheres process information from the outside—and inside—world in different ways: one from an objective stance, the other from a more subjective perspective. The two brains use different ways of perceiving the world and of being in the world.

Neuroscience has legitimized subjectivity in psychology and in therapy.
Neuroscience has legitimized subjectivity in psychology and in therapy. Both science and clinical theory agree that psychotherapy is basically relational and emotional, and so we now think that emotionally and intersubjectively being with the patient is more important than rationally explaining the patient’s behavior to himself. The core self system is relational and emotional, and lateralized to the right hemisphere, and not the analytical left brain. As we empathically “follow the affect” and facilitate the patient experiencing a “heightened affective moment,” we’re intuitively inhibiting the dominance of the left and “leaning right.”
DB: Can you speak more about how neuroscience is changing our understanding of the art of psychotherapy?
AS: Let me try to give a broad overview. In the critical moments of any session the patient must sense that we’re empathically with them. Research shows a difference between the left brain understanding of cognitive empathy and right brain bodily-based emotional empathy. In other words, we’re experiencing and sharing the patient’s right brain emotional subjective states, being with the patient rather than doing to the patient. In this therapeutic context we have to also be in the right brain to make therapeutic contact, and for the patient to make contact with her deeper emotions. Later we may engage our left brains to more cognitively understand the emotional state, but while we’re attempting to “listen beneath the words” in order to “reach the affect” and work with the affect we must, as Reik said, abandon “sweet reason” and “rigidly rational consciousness” and “abandon yourself” to intuitive hunches that emerge from the unconscious.

Intuition and empathy are right brain functions, and both operate at levels beneath conscious awareness. Bion said we must leave conscious expectation behind in order to really hear the whole patient. So getting back to Jung, he also said “Man’s task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious.”

These two different brains, the conscious mind and the unconscious mind, must work together. As my colleague Iain McGilchrist has shown, we are currently out of hemispheric balance. I think psychology has placed too great an emphasis on the conscious mind, and we are now challenging the long-held idea that reason must overcome bodily-based emotion. That the conscious mind needs to control and suppress the unconscious mind, that science and art are always in conflict, and that they would never mesh together. As I’ve written, with the ongoing interdisciplinary paradigm shift our perspective has changed, and not incidentally the gap between the practice and the theory of psychotherapy has really collapsed in the last two decades.

Getting back to your Jung citation, at the very beginning of our clinical education we’re learning techniques, and we’re learning the psychological science of psychotherapy. But as we learn our craft and gain clinical experience, ultimately the bulk of our learning comes from being with and learning from our patients—about them as well as self-knowledge. As I see it, our growing clinical expertise expands within the psychotherapeutic relationships we share with our patients. It’s what our patients are teaching us, if we are open to it. It’s not just about them and the deeper psychological realms within them. It’s at the same time becoming more familiar with the deeper core of our own self system. Being psychodynamically focused, this involves the use of both our conscious left and especially the unconscious “right mind.”

I believe that we’ve overvalued the analytic left mind. So lately I’ve looked more carefully at the neuroscience for the overt and subtle difference between the left and right brain/mind. This has shifted my clinical focus from the explicit to the implicit, from cognitive mental content to affective psychobiological process. I now see the change mechanism acting beneath the words—in process more than content. We now have a better idea what this process is about, and how relational interactions literally can change that process and thereby change character structure.

My idea about science is that we need to update ourselves about what is objectively known about the brain and what is known about the body, as well as “knowing” more about our own subjectivity. And that’s a continual journey. Fundamentally, our psychotherapeutic exploration of somebody else’s subjectivity, which is bodily-based subjectivity, is also an exploration of our own subjectivity. So, there are two types of knowledge here that really underlie psychotherapy change processes: the explicit knowledge of the broader biological and psychological scientific theories, and the “implicit relational knowledge of self and other.”
DB: Before we go any further, as a psychodynamic therapist, even a “neuropsychoanalytic” one, what might you say about your work to therapists who are using more directive methods, such as CBT and EMDR?
AS: The neurobiologically informed psychodynamic perspective that I use emphasizes a clinical focus on not only explicit conscious but implicit unconscious processes. All schools of psychotherapy are now interested in these essential functions that take place beneath awareness. And all are accessing attachment internal working models, which Bowlby said operate at unconscious levels and can be changed by therapy. So I’m interested in not only the patient’s overt behavior, but also her internal world, what cognitive scientists call internal schemas.

My work is fundamentally about how to work with affect, and so clinically I’m exploring with the patient not only conscious but unconscious cognition and, importantly, unconscious affect. The patient may have no awareness of what neuroscience is now describing as “unconscious negative emotion.” Research has now established that fear isn’t necessarily conscious; you can experience it without being aware that you’re experiencing it. So how do we detect these unconscious affects?

And then there’s the matter of the communication of emotions within the therapeutic alliance that are so rapid that they occur beneath conscious awareness. The alliance is a central mechanism in not only psychodynamic therapy but CBT, EMDR, experiential, body psychotherapy, etc. This gets to what used to be called the common factors that impact all forms of treatment. I’m interested in the change mechanisms that occur in all psychotherapeutic modalities, but especially in the right brain, which is dominant for emotional and social functions and stress regulation.
DB: But let me get in a question for the people who may not have had much exposure to the kind of neuroscience and the neuropsychoanalytic approach that you’ve written so much about over the last two decades. At basic levels, you say that right brain development is much more rapid in the newborn, or in the developing fetus even. Can you address those implications?
AS: Let me just go wide for a second and then we can kind of dive in here, because the truth of it is that the last two decades have been remarkable in terms of the changes in the field of psychology across the board. I’m thinking about the early ‘90s when there was a huge split between researchers and clinicians, where there were divisions within the different schools of psychotherapy, and where the focus was very much on verbal content of the session. Although there were breaks away from classical psychoanalytic theory, the focus was still on undoing repression, making the unconscious conscious, and with interpretations being the major vectors of the treatment. Emotion really had not come into the forefront. But that’s the key to the change.

Over the ‘70s we had been moving into a behavioral psychology and from that to a behavioral psychotherapy. Then it transitioned into a cognitive psychology where suddenly, we went beyond just overt behavior and into covert cognition, which became a legitimate field of study. Out of that came cognitive behavioral therapy and then in the ‘90s the emotional revolution, as it’s been called, began, which posited that affect is primary, as well as affect regulation. And that’s where my studies really began, in the early 1990’s.

The Reemergence of Psychoanalysis

DB: Did you have much contact with psychoanalysts Joe Weiss and Hal Sampson in San Francisco who founded a psychotherapy research group and developed Control Mastery Theory?
AS: Not contact, but I was well aware of them and I’m pretty sure they were aware of me.
DB: They were.
AS: Their work has held up, and its impact continues. There’s now an intense interest in gaining a deeper understanding of what used to be called the non-specific mechanisms of change, in all forms of psychotherapy. They were onto that really early.

My first book, Affect Regulation and the Origin of the Self, tied together the social-emotional change processes in early development and in psychotherapy. This was in 1994 and, incidentally, the term “self” was not being used that much back then. Psychodynamic people were still more or less using the term “ego” rather than “self.” As I’m sure you’re well aware, Jung had put his money on “self” and was much closer to describing the core system than Freud’s “ego.”

The early developmental models of the time were dominated by the cognitive models of Piaget.
Everyone had been attempting to try to squeeze Piaget into a psychotherapeutic mechanism. It proved to be kind of an awkward fit.
Everyone had been attempting to try to squeeze Piaget into a psychotherapeutic mechanism. It proved to be kind of an awkward fit. Emotion was the key to attachment.

And so the subtitle of my book was The Neurobiology of Early Emotional Development. That same year Antonio Damasio had come out with his book Descartes' Error, and the whole idea of emotion, which had been ignored by science, began to come out of the closet.

Twenty years later it’s well established that emotion is primary in early human development, that affect dysregulation lies at the core of psychopathology, and that affective communications are essential in all forms of psychotherapy.

The second area of basic change is the matter of the interpersonal neurobiology of attachment—a shift from the intrapsychic to the interpersonal. Many people had been looking at attachment theory, but even attachment theory was hard to anchor clinical process in. That had to be worked out: other than the “strange situation” and the AAI [Adult Attachment Interview], how were clinicians going to use Bowlby’s attachment theory and information about early development? That has been a remarkable change. Now just about every clinician has some understanding of the centrality of early development and how that interpersonal developmental mechanism plays out in the therapeutic relationship.

Indeed, early development really has come into the fore in all forms of psychotherapy, with all patient populations.
Interpersonal neurobiology—how early relationships shape the brain—has transformed attachment theory.
Interpersonal neurobiology—how early relationships shape the brain—has transformed attachment theory. This transformation from what I call “classical attachment theory” to “modern attachment theory” focuses on not only regulation but also dysregulation and ideas of psychopathogenesis, which have also been major themes of my work. My efforts have been to generate a more integrated theory of mind and body, of psychology and biology. In essence I’ve attempted to synthesize these fields in order to create a coherent psychobiological model of how the self develops, how dysregulation and disorders evolve, and then ultimately how to treat these disorders.

A couple of other things to mention: another change over the last two decades has been the reemergence of psychodynamic theory and the revitalization of psychoanalysis, the science of unconscious processes. It took a while, because as you know, classical psychoanalysis was seen as apart from science, and was cast out of academia for a long period of time.

But this reemergence has paradoxically been fostered by neuroscience, and its interest in rapid implicit processes. Neuroimaging research has established that most essential adaptive processes are so rapid that they take place beneath conscious awareness. I’ve suggested that the self system is located in the right brain, the biological substrate of the human unconscious. This differs from Freud’s dynamic unconscious, which mainly contains repressed material, banished from consciousness. At any rate there is now great interest in implicit unconscious processes, and I think we’re now coming back to a modern expression of psychodynamic theory. Indeed all forms of therapy are now looking at right brain to right brain transference and countertransference communications, and how these are expressed in the therapeutic alliance, beneath the words.
All forms of therapy are now looking at right brain to right brain transference and countertransference communications, and how these are expressed in the therapeutic alliance, beneath the words.



One other major change has been the rediscovery of brain lateralization, and the appreciation of the different structural organizations of the right and left brain. Each has different critical periods and growth spurts, and ultimately different specialized functions. For me the terra incognita literally has always been the early developing right brain, the unconscious. More so than the surface conscious mind my interest has been in deeper early forming nonverbal bodily-based survival processes. I became especially interested in how we could bring these survival processes into the open, and how these could be studied. As a clinician-scientist, everything that I’ve authored has had to be clinically relevant. It has to fit the way that I work with my patients, as well as scientifically grounded. My theories are heuristic, and not only open to research but able to generate experimental hypotheses that can be tested.

Hemisphericity

DB: You’ve spoken of the left brain being verbal, rational, and logical, but of the right brain actually having verbal aspects also. How would you describe the verbal capacities of the right brain?
AS: The first person to bring up the idea that all language is not only in the left hemisphere, just for the record, was Freud in 1891 in On Aphasia, which still is studied by neurologists.
Right hemispheric language creates the intimate feeling of “being with.”
But the idea that everything that is verbal has to, by definition, reside in the left brain is still held by many people. Current neuroscience shows this is not the case. The right also has language. The right stores our own names, and processes emotional words. Prosody, the emotional tone of the voice, is right lateralized, as well as novel metaphors, and making thematic inferences. So when a patient all of a sudden is in an emotional state and is using an emotional word, the right is tracking that also. Right hemispheric language creates the intimate feeling of “being with.”
DB: And humor is known to be more right brain?
AS: Absolutely!
DB: And it kind of “wakes up” our left brain with recognition?
AS: Yes. Because the processing of what is familiar is left and the processing of novelty is right. Essentially we’re looking for, not the bottom line preexisting truth, but for the ability to process novelty, especially novelty in social emotional interactions. And for many patients intimacy is novelty. So, yes, anything that is new pops into the right brain first, and you actually get bursts of noradrenaline in the right hemisphere, the hemisphere that is dominant for attention. In fact, I’m now citing studies which indicate that the highest levels of human cognition—the “aha” moment of insight, intuition, creativity, indeed love, are all expressions of the right and not left brain.
DB: It’s in the right, but we don’t know about it until it shows up in the left. The right brain lets us know what’s actually going on, especially in the body, and in the deeper core of the self.
AS: Correct. Essentially, the left has the illusion that it has just discovered something new, but the truth of it is the right has discovered it, and now the left is putting into words what the right just found out about the self, especially in relation to other self systems. My colleague Darcia Narvaez is showing that morality is also a very high right brain process. A body of research indicates that the right is dominant for affiliation, the left for power.

This gets into some of the matters that Jung and others were talking about— these very high symbolic mechanisms are in the right hemisphere. Here’s another example of how neuroscience has changed our ideas about the human experience. It used to be thought that all symbolic processes are a product of the verbal left brain, so the goal was to get the patient to use words, and once there was conscious verbalization, then the patient can understand, and then the unconscious becomes conscious and change occurs. We’re now saying that’s not quite the case. The ultimate expression of the right brain is a conscious emotion. The ultimate expression of the left brain is a conscious thought.
Becoming aware of our bodily-based emotions is more essential than becoming aware of our thoughts.
Becoming aware of our bodily-based emotions is more essential than becoming aware of our thoughts.

The right brain and the unconscious mind are more connected into the visceral body. As you know the body has been rediscovered in the last couple of decades. And that’s been an enormous change for psychology and psychiatry.

Trauma and Development

DB: Would you say that has been driven through the clinical work, research and writing on trauma?
AS: Partly that. But also the developmental work on attachment theory and attachment trauma. Clearly, modern trauma theory, which did not really exist until around the late ‘90s, has also been one of the important transformations of the last two decades—the idea that “the body keeps the score,” as Bessel van der Kolk put it. But even beyond that, I would suggest it’s the re-discovery of the autonomic nervous system that is the major player here. It’s now an accepted principle that in order to understand the human experience it’s not just the voluntary behavior of the central nervous system, but also the involuntary behavior of the autonomic nervous system—mind and body. And that’s why much of my bodily-based attachment model involves the autonomic nervous system. The mother is literally a regulator of crescendos and de-crescendos of the baby’s developing autonomic nervous system.

These same bodily-based processes are also involved in the therapist’s right brain psychobiological attunement to and regulation of the patient’s emotional states. So the body has now embedded itself into the core of models of subjectivity—an embodied subjectivity which is not just an abstraction of the left brain, but right brain processes. The body is now seen as essential to right brain to right brain intersubjectivity. In my own work I’ve argued that this conceptual advance has impacted clinical models, such as somatic countertransference—the therapists’ own bodily reactions to patients’ conscious and especially unconscious communications. Also, there is the idea that a major function of the therapist is to regulate the patient’s autonomic arousal, a clinical concept that has challenged the older idea of neutrality, and that expands the previous concept of containment. This perspective attends more to right brain unconscious process than left brain conscious content. Once again, these scientific advances have transformed our clinical models.
DB: Wouldn’t another major transformation be what I heard you saying in a recent workshop: that the very disruptions of intensive therapy allow the repressed traumatic developmental relational issues to come to the surface, and if they’re dealt with properly, there then is healing?
AS: Absolutely the case. Except not “repressed,” but dissociated. There’s also been a shift in defenses, from an earlier clinical model that emphasized insight and the undoing of repression, a model of therapeutic action based on bringing to the patient’s consciousness repressed unconscious material.
Trauma theory emphasizes working with the deadening of affective consciousness by this other bodily-based survival defense, dissociation.
Trauma theory emphasizes working with the deadening of affective consciousness by this other bodily-based survival defense, dissociation. Clinicians are learning to differentiate the two and recognize the latter.

But, yes, the idea about disruptions and repairs came out of the developmental data and was incorporated into my modern attachment theory. My writings emphasize that rupture and repair, both in the developmental and psychotherapeutic contexts, involve important opportunities for interactive regulation of dysregulated affective states.

At the most fundamental level I’m interested in the mechanisms of change, especially in the early developing right brain self system. To use an earlier language, what I’m exploring is how the object relational sequences between the mother and the infant shape emerging psychic structure. In more modern terms these are investigations of interpersonal neurobiology. An interpersonal neurobiology of human development enables us to understand that the structure and function of the mind and brain are shaped by experiences, especially those involving emotional relationships, and to understand how brains align their neural activities in social interactions.

The tie in from my developmental work to my clinical work is that the same right brain to right brain social emotional processes that are setting up between the mother and the infant later play out in the therapeutic alliance. The model links the right brain growth in early development with later changes in the social/emotional context. And as you pointed out rupture and repair are potential contexts of emotional growth. So I’ve paid attention to the work of other developmental psychoanalytic researchers like Beatrice Beebe and Ed Tronick and Karlen Lyons-Ruth, who are also studying ruptures and repairs.

In my most recent writings I’ve focused on the essential role of these repairs in re-enactments of attachment trauma, which really is at the heart of the therapeutic change mechanism. I’m describing how both patient and therapist co-construct both the rupture and the repair, and that these ruptures are not technical mistakes, but literally—
DB: —the universal disappointments that are part of human relationships, and the repairs being the paths of healing?
AS: Beautifully put. Enactments represent communications of previous ruptures that triggered negative affects so intense and so painful that they were dissociated and banished from consciousness. As the therapy progresses and the attachment bond in the therapeutic alliance strengthens, there is enough safety for the patient to dis-assemble the dissociative defenses and let the affects come online more frequently. And then, what has been buried and packed down underneath dissociation surges into bodily awareness in the presence of a regulating other, now offering a possibility of interactive repair.
What has been buried and packed down underneath dissociation surges into bodily awareness in the presence of a regulating other, now offering a possibility of interactive repair.
Jung, who studied dissociation, described how the enduring emotional impact of childhood trauma “remains hidden all along from the patient, so that not reaching consciousness, the emotion never wears itself out, it is never used up.” He also stated the trauma may suddenly return: “it forces itself tyrannically upon the conscious mind. The explosion of affect is a complete invasion of the individual. It pounces upon him like an enemy or a wild animal.”

In my model of “relational trauma” I’ve suggested that it’s not just misattunements that lead to the traumatic predisposition. It’s also the lack of the repair, and that repair and interactive regulation requires a very personal, authentic response on the part of the therapist. Attachment trauma was originally relational, and so the healing must be relational, a mutual process. In Sullivan’s words, the therapist is not neutral and detached, but a “participant observer.”

Love, Repair, and Deepening Love

DB: Okay, can you take what we are talking about and even apply it beyond therapy to other intimate relationships? Could you actually say to a couple that it’s in the very upsets that they have that, if they could approach it in the right way, they’ll have a window into learning about some of their earlier wounds or traumas, and be able to heal them?
AS: Obviously the original context of attachment trauma was a very intimate context. I mean the relationship between the mother and the infant defined an intimate context. Her ability to down regulate negative affect in rupture and repair and up-regulate positive affect in mutual play shaped the attachment bond and the infant’s developing right brain. In a secure attachment the intimate context is characterized by mutual love, and over the course of my studies I’m increasingly using the term love to describe the intensity of the emotional bond. This is more than just pleasant affect. This is intense emotion.

And that love, incidentally, between the mother and the infant also is the mother’s ability to pick up communications that are not only joy but also distress and to be able to hold and to feel that in herself, and then to regulate that and communicate back to the baby.

The idea about being able to hold the pleasure and the pain really is the key to this. In the cases of other intimate dyads, this also applies. A number of clinicians are now focusing on the same right brain psychobiological mechanisms in couple’s work. The couples’ therapist who is working with attachment is able to hold the dyad, to regulate each member of the dyad. She’s also facilitating and reading nonverbal emotional communications within the dyad, and bringing to awareness affective moments in which they are engaging and disengaging, and switching between various emotional states.

The therapeutic action with couples is to allow each member to become more aware of these rapid automatic processes, and how each is communicating or blocking transmissions from the other. As always the clinical principle is to follow the affect, especially authentic affect, whether positive or negative. And again, rupture and repair are important contexts for right brain development and emotional growth. But even beyond couples therapy, interpersonal neurobiology and affective neuroscience are now being incorporated into group psychotherapy. The focus is on what group members are communicating beneath the words, at conscious and unconscious levels, and how right brain emotional communications and regulatory transactions are occurring in the group relational context.

So, although the emotional contact between humans originates in the mother-infant dyad, it ultimately becomes the way in which individual human beings communicate with other human beings. These deeper communications and miscommunications have little to do with left-brain language functions. They have more to do with right-brain abilities to nonconsciously read the spontaneous facial expression, tone of voice, and gestures of other humans.

Self-Regulation, Co-Regulation, and Buddhism

DB: Are Buddhist ideas of the self/nonself of interest to you? Or do you get all you need from psychoanalytic thought and neuroscience?
AS: Most of my ideas about the self come from neuroscience and psychoanalysis, including Jung and others. But the idea of self/nonself and multiple self states have been a focus. In current relational psychoanalytic writings the concept that comes closest to my own is Philip Bromberg’s idea about multiplicity of self-states: that we all have a variety of self states associated with different affects and motivations. Some of these are operating on a conscious level, others of these on unconscious levels. He calls these latter states “not-me” states as opposed to “me” states (a concept he borrowed from Harry Stack Sullivan).

Depending upon context we nonconsciously switch through these states. Each of these self states is tied into a motivational system (fear, aggression, shame, depression, joy etc.). In other words, when threatened, the fear motivational system is triggered. My right brain is attending to and tracking the external threat outside. In that self state noradrenaline and adrenaline is higher, cortisol is elevated, the physiology and attentional systems are altered. The memory system is also altered. When the threat passes or I’ve regulated and coped with it, I become relieved and switch into another self state, say a quiet alert state or a positively valenced exploratory state. So due to self regulating mechanisms we switch through these self-states. Resilience and flexibility is the adaptive ability to fluidly switch depending upon what is occurring in the context and what is meaningful at that point in time.

On the matter of Buddhism’s concept of self—that self state of consciousness that is associated with meditation, as I understand the concept, aims to control and still the fluctuations of the mind. The self (mind, awareness) identifies itself with fluctuating patterns of consciousness. Yoga, for example, is a form of mastering or eliminating such fluctuations and the attainment of stable concentration of attention and non-attachment to sensory experiences. With practice a change from evaluative to non-evaluative self-monitoring occurs during meditation. That said, neuroscience studies show that “compassionate meditation” does have more of a right brain, limbic focus.

I’ve written that self regulation can take two forms: interactive regulation in affiliative interconnected contexts, and autoregulation in autonomous contexts. In yoga the meditating self is acting as an autoregulatory system. My interests in development and in psychotherapy are relational, so I’ve been more interested in interactive regulation that occurs between human beings.

That said, the key is being able to switch between these two modes of self regulation. Both of these derive from the early interactive regulation of the attachment relationship. Going inward to control emotion is different from reaching outwards to others at moments of loss or joy. The inability to emotionally connect with others is at the core of any relational affect focused psychotherapy.
As I look at the significant problems of the larger world I’m convinced that we need more connection, not separation and autonomy.
As I look at the significant problems of the larger world I’m convinced that we need more connection, not separation and autonomy. For me, where we are in this world right now, really what we desperately need, what’s being thinned down on a daily basis, is this capacity for interactive regulation.

We also have the problem that the US and Western cultures emphasize the value of autonomous and independent personalities; they are highly valued over interdependent ones. As I mentioned, the left hemisphere is associated with power and competitiveness, the right with affiliation and pro-social motivations. So, again, that’s the reason why I’ve been more interested in the higher right hemisphere, which processes not only emotional states and higher cognitive functions, but spiritual and moral experiences. It is here in the right where the self is transcended, where the self becomes larger and expanded. In these states the grandiosity of the self literally is collapsed down and there is some understanding that one is part of a much larger organism, a much larger sense of being alive. This sounds like the Buddhist autoregulatory self state.

But let me repeat, interactive regulation is the key to the therapeutic alliance. There is now a push into the relational trend in all forms of psychotherapy. Actually in psychoanalysis the relational emphasis has always been there. I’m thinking of Ferenzci, Jung, Kohut and more recently relational intersubjective psychoanalysis. This relational trend now is coming into mainstream psychology, and is seen as the central mechanism of psychotherapy.

I point this out because psychologists on the one hand can be teaching meditative skills, but can also be accessing relational expertise in the therapeutic alliance.
DB: But they better also have those mindfulness skills themselves so they can be present to receive all of what’s coming in the interaction rather than kind of stereotypically looking through these variety of theories or thinking of what to do next or how to be.
AS: Right. But I suggested that a certain form of mindfulness, including a bodily awareness, must take place in a relational context. The idea being that there are certain parts of the self that cannot be discovered, that cannot come into awareness, unless they are being mirrored by another human being.
DB: Ah! So it’s not just that the relational trauma that gets dissociated can be healed through the relational—there’s a Yiddish term "fargin" that means, “joining someone’s joy.” I love that concept.
AS: That’s a great cultural metaphor—sharing someone’s joy as well as pain.

A Third Subjectivity

DB: So there may be feelings that you are not going to fully experience until you see them mirrored in a reciprocal emotional interaction.
AS: Exactly. One of the central concepts that I’ve written about is resonance. In physics, a property of resonance is the tendency of one resonance system to enlarge and amplify through matching the resonance frequency pattern of another resonance system.
It’s more than mirroring, it’s an intensification of positive arousal and thereby an energetic mechanism, which is a form of interactive regulation.
In psychology, a state of resonance exists when one person’s subjectivity is empathically attuned to another’s inner state, and this resonance then interactively amplifies, in both intensity and duration, the affective state in both members of the dyad. This resonance can occur rapidly at levels beneath conscious awareness, and it generates what has been called “a third subjectivity.” For example, in mutual play states dyadic resonance ultimately permits the inter-coordination of positive affective brain states, shared joy, which increase curiosity and exploration.
DB: What you just described might also be related to what my Zen friends call “one mind.” There’s a great quote sometimes attributed to e.e. cummings about this: "We do not believe in ourselves until someone reveals that something deep inside us is valuable, worth listening to, worthy of our trust, sacred to our touch. Once we believe in ourselves we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous delight or any experience that reveals the human spirit.”
AS: Yes, again, it’s more than mirroring, it’s an intensification of positive arousal and thereby an energetic mechanism, which is a form of interactive regulation.
DB: And it’s also accounting for my increasing enjoyment of this interview versus a little bit of anticipatory anxiety about talking with you in the very beginning. But it quickly became exceedingly enjoyable.

Can you discuss the variability of people in terms of quiet versus very active internal experiences—either auditory and verbal, some other form of thought, or visually active consciousness in contrast to people who have a naturally occurring or developed quiet mind?
AS: Sure. The first thing that comes to mind is what has been termed as “the quiet alert state.” This is the flexible state that the mother accesses to pick up her infant’s varying emotional expressions. It’s associated with a state of autonomic balance between the energy expending sympathetic and energy conserving parasympathetic branches of the autonomic nervous system. Within attachment communications the caregiver sets the ranges of arousal, the set points of the infant’s resting quiet alert state. It’s relationally tuned, and later affects the individual brain’s default state. In other words, regulation is the key to the quiet mind.

But I’m also thinking about right and left hemispheric balance, and individual differences in “hemisphericity.”
There are individuals for whom that chatter is always so intense, so continuous, and even so loud they cannot quietly be with themselves. They can’t tolerate internal silence, and so they can’t monitor what’s coming from the body and from deeper strata of the unconscious.
For example, in a resting state greater right hemisphericity is associated with a history of more frequent negative affect, lower self esteem and difficulties in affect regulation. Greater left hemisphericity, on the other hand, is associated with heavy inhibition of the right brain, repression of emotions, and over-regulation of disturbances. Consciousness is dominated by continuous left brain chatter, and thereby an inability to be emotionally present, to be “in the moment.” There are individuals for whom that chatter is always so intense, so continuous, and even so loud they cannot quietly be with themselves. They can’t tolerate internal silence, and so they can’t monitor what’s coming from the body and from deeper strata of the unconscious. They’re always in a state of “doing” rather than “being.”
DB: And they have difficulty experiencing their bodies and can’t even tell you what they’re sensing, or maybe even how they’re feeling because it’s just pure thought.
AS: Right. When it comes to emotion and emotion dysregulation, for a long time people were thinking only about under-regulation, that the emotions are so powerful and so strong that they interfere with the logical and rational capacities of the left hemisphere. But there is also another problematic state—where it’s over-regulated. In that case the person is habitually packing down emotions, out of awareness, and whose left hemisphere is so dominant that it’s always “in control.” They “live in the left,” and use words to move away from affect. They’re talking about rather than experiencing emotion, from the other side of the callosal divide, not actually allowing themselves to disinhibit the right and to feel what is in the body. And yet, “the body keeps the score.” In the most extreme cases they’re dissociative and alexithymic.

These are patients who use words in order not to feel; they are over-inhibited and susceptible to over-regulation disturbances. Think about overly rational, insecure, avoidant personalities who overemphasize verbal cognition and dismiss emotion. Returning to our earlier discussions of recent changes in the science of affect, dysregulation can be either under-regulation or over-regulation, an avoidance strategy versus an anxious strategy.

Imagery

DB: Coincidental with that, I’ve noticed there are people, such as myself, who are minimally or not at all visual in their memory. Aldous Huxley described this about himself in Doors of Perception. If I were trying to visualize my living room, I would say it’s like 10% clear.

Other people I know are eidetic or photographic in their imagery. People who have that kind of visual memory can also have vivid imagery intrusively interfere in the present, where a person would be walking downtown and, instead of having a thought or worry that a bus might hit a particular woman, he would see the bus hitting her. Or he would visualize a building falling down—all-intruding upon his peace of mind, as you can imagine.
AS: A few things come to mind from your observations. The classical idea of brain laterality is that the right processes visual and spatial images while the left is involved in language.

But when it comes to imagery, the truth is we forget much of the time that imagery can be in any modality. We usually think about the visual image, as in your example of someone having an image of a bus hitting a pedestrian, or a building falling. Or a patient will come up with metaphors that are loaded with visual images. Also think of visual images of faces, especially emotionally expressive faces. But imagery can also be auditory—as when our consciousness becomes aware of a song melody or olfactory images, of an emotionally evocative smell or odor.

So, for those of us who are highly auditory, like both of us, we used to think that was verbal. But as you know, there are nonverbal auditory cues. Aside from the verbal content the voice itself is communicating essential information, even more important in an intimate moment than the verbal. Most psychotherapists are highly auditory and attuned and very sensitive to even slight changes in the prosodic tone of voice of the patient. It’s at that point where we will lean in, so to speak. But we also use our voice as a regulatory tool. In a well-timed moment we intuitively and spontaneously express our calming and soothing voice, or at other times we’ll come in with a more energizing voice, or even a limit-setting voice. Or we’re expressing an auditory metaphorical image.

So I think that when we talk about imagery, especially emotional imagery, we’re usually thinking of visual images. But there also are tactile images. As in an image of what it feels like at this moment, including what it feels like in your body and in my body, because I can pick this up and put that together with another’s facial expression.

But also there’s a difference between implicit visual recognition and explicit visual recall. I may not be able to have a conscious memory of a visual representation. But if there’s a subtle change in an emotional expression on a patient’s face, I can pick it up quickly. And let’s remember that when it comes to processing the meaning of nonverbal facial and auditory expressions, this is not occurring at conscious awareness. These interpersonal cues that denote changes in affects and subjectivity are detected and tracked by the right amygdala, at levels beneath awareness. Again, we’re listening beneath the words, and these signals are triggering unconscious memory systems of various sensory modalities—auditory and tactile, as well as vision.
DB: Hmmm, it just struck me that I often say that I’m not visual. But I must be visual in my right hemisphere because I have these wonderful, clear, visual dreams.
AS: I agree. Remember with the right brain, you’re talking about not only long-term visual memory, but also ultra-short working memory, what has been called the visuo-spatial sketchpad. We hold a momentary image in consciousness long enough to see if it matches with our memory of affectively charged personally meaningful experiences. At a reunion, when you emotionally see your daughter’s face your right brain can immediately detect that there’s something wrong, or that she’s experiencing shame or joy. That right brain function is essential to our ability to be in close relationships. Someone who is mind-blind to facial expressions will have problems with intimacy.

Alone in the Presence of Another

DB: I think back to your former student and couples therapist Stan Tatkin, who has made the point that our partner often knows things about us by looking at our face before we’re aware of what we are feeling, which brings us back to the reasonableness of trying to grow with affect co-regulation versus only self-soothing and all of that through meditation. But is there a name for something that would be like co-meditating? I know we’re talking about co-regulation.
AS: Well now I’m thinking about Winnicott’s idea about being alone in the presence of the other. Remember?
DB: No!
AS: Winnicott talked about the child in the second year achieving a complex developmental advance—the adaptive ability to be alone, and the creation of true autonomy. That is, to be separate, to be processing one’s own individuality and one’s own self system in the presence of another. The other is a background presence, so it doesn’t get swept into the child. But they’re literally both individuating in their presence together. And this is a kind of silent being together without having a need to take care of the other or support the other, of literally that kind of comfort.

So, on the one hand there is the joining of joy, which would be more active so to speak. And on the other hand there is this idea about being alone in the presence of the other, which is more passive. The self-system has stability at that point in time. It can shift out of that state if it needs to, but again, I would suggest to you that comes close to what you’re talking about. And that gets into the importance of solitude, the importance of privacy, which in this day and age is being completely forgotten. The poet Rilke said so eloquently, “For one human being to love another, that is perhaps the most difficult of all our tasks, the ultimate, the last test and proof, the work for which all other is but preparation. I hold this to be the highest task for a bond between two people: that each protects the solitude of the other.”

Repair in Relationship, and Returning to the Matter of Love

DB: I wonder if you would agree with a quote from Kierkegaard when he said "perfect love is learning to love the very one that has made you unhappy.” Does that resonate with you at all?
AS: Absolutely the case.
DB: Anything that you would modify?
AS: In my recent lectures I’m describing the interpersonal neurobiological emergence of mutual love between the mother and infant. Studies on the functional neuroanatomy of maternal love document that the loving mother is capable of empathizing and feeling in her own body what the baby feels in his body, whether it be a joy state as well as a pain state. When the securely attached mother is in the fMRI scanner viewing emotional videos of her infant in a joy state or in a cry state, positive emotions such as love and motherly feeling coexisted with negative ones such as anxious feeling and worry in the mother herself.

Other studies show that insecure dismissive-avoidant mothers cannot hold the distressed baby’s painful negative states. The narcissistic mother only stays connected when the baby is mirroring back a positive state, and is unable to tolerate and repair shame states. So this ability to hold onto both positive and negative affect, and not engage in splitting is essential. In fact, in developmental studies, Ed Tronick has shown that even the secure mother is only attuned about 30 percent of the time. The key is not only the misattunement, but the interactive repair. These misattunements are common—my colleague Philip Bromberg describes frequent collisions of subjectivities within an intimate dyad.

Returning to our earlier discussion, it’s the ability to interactively repair these collisions that allows for the strengthening of an emotional connection between an intimate couple. Clinically, it’s the emerging ability of the therapeutic dyad to co-create and co-regulate ruptures that allows us to tolerate the negative transference and strengthen the positive transference—to move together from positive to negative and back to positive affective states. That really strengthens the bond and it leads to resilience. For me that’s what Kierkegaard’s intuition is describing.
DB: Ah.
AS: But while the moments of emotional connection are important, so are the moments of shared solitude, of being alone in the presence of the other, moments of shared silence. It’s very limiting to think that everything has to be filled with words or interpretations.
For some therapists, when there’s too much silence they’ll start to fill it up with words, for their own regulatory needs.
For some therapists, when there’s too much silence they’ll start to fill it up with words, for their own regulatory needs.You know, for some therapists, when there’s too much silence they’ll start to fill it up with words, for their own regulatory needs. The matter that I’m raising here is that attachment is about the capacity for intimacy. Are intimacy and the capacity for mutual love expanded in long-term psychotherapy? Can patients use what they’ve experienced in therapy to expand the abilities for forming close and personally meaningful bonds with others, as in deep friendships and long term romantic relationships? Can they use these relationships as a source of more intense brain/mind body interactive regulation and autoregulation, and therefore have both interdependence and autonomy?

Both clinical theory and interpersonal neurobiology agree that in optimal social emotional environments the self-system evolves to more and more complexity. Not only the growth of the left brain conscious mind but also the right brain unconscious mind can be enriched and expanded in deep psychotherapy. By emotionally interacting with other right brains, a secure right brain self can continue to grow and develop to more complexity over the later Eriksonian stages of the life span. The secure self is not a static end state but a continuously expanding dynamic system that is capable of both stability and change.

Freud said that, in the end, therapy, and indeed life, was about love and work. Today we might think about that in terms of the expression of the development of the affiliative right and agentic left brains. My work has been an exploration of the primacy of the emotional development of the right brain, over the life span. In The Art of Loving, Eric Fromm described the intense emotional experience of love as “the experience of union with another being” and proposed that “beloved people can be incorporated into the self.” Here’s an example of self expansion that occurs within and between two people.
DB: Well, that’s all a lovely way to end. I’ll respect your own need for solitude by finishing up this conversation, but I would like to close with asking about your current activities. You’re still meeting in several cities with students?
AS: Yes. For almost two decades I’ve continued to meet with study groups here in Los Angeles. I also have ongoing groups in Berkeley-Alameda, as well as Boulder, and in the Northwest.
DB: In Seattle?
AS: Yes, I Skype with clinicians and researchers in Seattle, Vancouver, and Portland. I’m about to start a Skype group in Australia, also.
DB: Well, all of this time with you, at both a personal and professional level has been delightful. So, thank you so much. I’m sure people are going to enjoy what you brought to today’s discussion.
AS: Same on my side, and thanks for today, David. I also greatly enjoyed this back and forth dialogue. As you said at the beginning the key was to have a spontaneous conversation.

What Remains: The Aftermath of Patient Suicide

Note: Clinical material in this article is taken across various venues and years of treatments. Identities are disguised to protect confidentiality. References used in writing this article, as well as resources for clinicians, can be found at the bottom of this page.

Silent Mourners

The memory is quite clear: several years ago, early one morning checking my voicemail, two messages in I came upon a message from my patient, Jill. The message was date-stamped the evening before. She said she would miss today’s session due to a need to find new housing; she thanked me for our work thus far (as she frequently did, sometimes out of social politeness or her fears of abandonment, other times out of sincere heartfelt gratitude, something we frequently explored). This time her gratitude sounded heartfelt in tone. Her message also left me perplexed, as we had not talked of housing, and I saved it. Another message, left moments before I checked my voicemail, was from Jill’s psychiatrist, Brian, asking me to give him a call when I got in the office. Brian and I spoke frequently of Jill, her ongoing medical decline at a relatively young age, and her persistent depression and posttraumatic stress. We followed her carefully, exchanged perspectives, and possessed mutual respect for one another’s clinical skills.

I called him immediately. “Are you in your office?” he asked, his voice ominous.

“Yes,” I replied, feeling my stomach tightening.

“Are you aware of the events related to Jill?”

“No,” my heart now pounded from my chest into my throat.

“Jill killed herself by handgun . . . “

I do not remember what he said next, just that he was still talking. I gasped, crying, while simultaneously attempting to hide my upset.

“Margaret, there was nothing, nothing you could have done to prevent this,” Brian continued, his voice clear and emphatic, speaking from his decades of experience, his knowledge of Jill, and his knowledge of our work together.

We talked for some time, and I could feel myself wanting to hang up the phone and be alone, but Brian insistently kept me on the line, wisely, for forty-five minutes. That was enough time for both of us to begin feeling the immensity of Jill’s death, and to begin the longer process of inquiry and reflection into her suicide and its after-effects. It was a process that would continue for a few months between us, and for more than a year for me.

Clinicians who lose patients to suicide are sometimes referred to as “silent mourners.” Some describe this kind of grief as disenfranchised. For me, I think of this grief as a kind of lived experience that catapults you into another environment which is foreign and therefore scary; a kind of grief that is uniquely solitary to bear and therefore devoid of larger community to bear it with you; a kind of grief that is intensely intertwined with shame; and a traumatic grief that possesses all the hallmarks of interpersonal trauma, whose impacts often continue reverberating long after the initial shattering experience has occurred. All of these facets and more underscore the particular experience of clinicians grieving suicide loss.

The differences are rather key in understanding how to be with our selves and also how to respond to colleagues who experience this kind of loss personally or professionally. My hope in writing this article is to buoy understanding, widen the circles of support for clinicians who have experienced suicide loss, and to offer some guideposts along the way of grieving. This topic and these aims are one of my life-long passions in my career. I have had the unfortunate experience of surviving two siblings’ suicides, the sudden death of a third sibling that suggested passive suicide, and the deaths of both parents from organic causes that were informed by these traumatic losses. My terrain of grief and traumatic loss was quite familiar to me by the time I met Jill, having traversed its intricacies in feeling, thought, and body using psychotherapy, meditation, long-distance hiking, body work, and writing, for many years. My experience served me well in working with Jill while she was alive, as well as holding what remained after her death. I was and am, after all, a wounded healer, meeting her suffering in life and in death.

Our Privileged Intimacy, Our Private Mourning

By its very nature, psychotherapy is a privileged space. The therapeutic relationship is characterized by a unique emotional intimacy with each patient. As therapists we are honored by our patients’ presence, the trust that is hard won, and the growing capacities through the course of psychotherapy we witness. We accompany and guide, inquire and curiously explore in a most particular way with each patient. With each patient, a slightly different relationship forms. We are slightly different therapists with each patient we encounter.

The extent to which we as therapists may deny the singular relationship with and presence of our patients in our lives contributes to the complications of grieving their departure in any form—from treatment termination to physical death. In her article, “Necessary and unnecessary losses: the analyst’s mourning” (2000) Sandra Buechler reflects that, because our work asks us to cultivate objectivity, and objectivity is often (over) emphasized in the work (and in training), it becomes a norm without critical thinking or reflection. This clinical cultural norm may also encourage a sense that we can (or should, perhaps) simply “move-on” when a patient departs. A therapist’s stance of distance may additionally complicate the grieving picture, especially in the case of loss by suicide. That stance may feed defenses of denial, encourage guilt, and amplify feelings of shame.

The great Jungian, James Hillman, stated that the suicide of patients is a “wrenching agony of therapeutic practice.” It is also a reality of practice that we fantasize will not touch us, despite the statistics. Depending upon the research reviewed, approximately fifty per cent of psychiatrists and thirty per cent of psychologists experience patient suicide. The statistics are incomplete and varied, often reflective of response rates to inquiry. Further, we do not, to my knowledge, have statistics on the numbers of mental health professionals who have experienced suicide loss within their personal circles of close family-friend relations, but it is fair to consider the percentages may be slightly higher if these were included.

For clinicians, suicide challenges every value we place in the therapeutic endeavor. It can raise fears of litigation, cloud clinical decision-making, and spark feelings of professional isolation. Suicide of a patient can challenge personal and professional identities, career trajectory, and sense of professional security. In its wake, patient suicide can leave posttraumatic stress symptoms behind as well as complicated grief. Interestingly, in my work with therapists who have experienced suicide loss of family or other close relations, they experience similar dilemmas. The sense that as a clinician he or she did not serve their family member or friend well, the questioning of clinical acumen, the guilt of feeling as though he or she should have done something to be of help and more, are common. As clinicians, suicide loss in any arena of our lives is experienced through the lens of our clinical knowledge, expertise, and experience.

There is little personal discussion on how therapists weather such a loss. Lay survivors of suicide are in an unknown country, inhabiting a strange landscape. Therapists surviving the suicide of a patient are in a similar land and yet there are important differences: there is no institutionalized ritual, no community of mourners, no one, really, who knew the patient as the clinician knew the patient. There is no one who witnessed first-hand (as best anyone can) the relationship between a certain patient and a certain therapist, yet the specific dyadic relationship is never to be experienced again. It is never to be remembered by anyone else but the therapist. In specific ways, we are the only one who holds our patient in mind. Even in the case of Jill, Brian held one particular relationship with her, and I another. Although Jill sometimes spoke of us to one another, the bulk of our memories of her are solitary, and the texture of our relationship with her singular.

Therapists are usually left alone with what remains in the aftermath of patient suicide. These remnants include all that was unsaid, unprocessed within the therapeutic relationship—both the regrets of what was not named and processed that are possibly linked to the suicide, and certainly all that had no chance to be felt and spoken of together that more time would have provided. Additionally, all that the therapist retains of his or her patient remains inside the therapist’s memory.

Further, who the therapist was with this particular patient is lost. This leaves open the question of who we are as therapist now. The process of mourning for therapist-survivors asks that we delve into the question of who we are now that our patient has left in this self-destructive way. And who are we, as therapist, the one here to facilitate healing—to engender life, if we have that kind of perspective—in the face of chosen death?

It can be alluring as the therapist-survivor for all these reasons to move far from the confusing thicket of feelings left by patient suicide. The cultural context and identity as therapist can encourage this moving away from honest reflection and processing too. Yet as we know with our patients, moving away from the real experience of the here and now can lead to a dulling of living, a numbing. In our work, moving away from our feelings can feed psychotherapeutic cynicism, burnout, and depression. It can also lead to problematic clinical decision-making and ethical lapses in judgment.

Our willingness to open, receive, and make contact with our patients within the therapeutic work is an offering toward healing—if we choose to risk it. From a relational perspective, certainly, our willingness in these ways is a vital vehicle in the process of transformation found within the therapeutic endeavor. Upon the suicide of a patient, it is tempting to shut down in response to profound relational loss and loss of the therapeutic framework upon which we rely.

Being with Groundlessness

“The dead leave us starving with mouths full of love,” the poet Anne Michaels writes. Jill left me starving and full. Her message to me left me full. The timing of her departure left me starving, questioning. She left me loving her, yes, but also left me with a myriad of other feelings including meaninglessness, impotence, frustration, and raw sadness. I was, because of my life experiences, immediately aware that I needed to take seriously the particular kind of loss I was experiencing—the loss of an incomplete, torn-apart relationship, the loss of who Jill was to me, a loss of clinical voice, and the loss of who I was as a psychotherapist with Jill.

There is ineffability—an unspoken quality— in this kind of traumatic loss. Psychoanalyst Ghislaine Boulanger distinguishes between child and adult onset trauma, noting how core self experience and self-in-relation experiences are undermined. Adult onset trauma shatters illusions of omnipotent control, ever-shaking the normative expectation of personal agency and healthful denial of omnipresent mortality. The suicide of a patient shatters illusions of therapist omnipotence, shaking expectations of potential positive influence upon patients, and calls into question core identity as well as identity-in-relationship to other patients and colleagues.

Western psychology rests within a worldview of personal agency. It is a worldview imbued with Euro-American, individualistic, educated, and moneyed values—all of which are crushed in the face of adult onset trauma. It is the very nature of this kind of traumatic loss that it rocks our assumptive world as therapists: questioning whether our endeavors are life giving, whether our efforts possess meaning and influence; and whether our chosen profession is worthwhile.

There was Todd, a patient-therapist in my practice who came to me after his long-term patient completed suicide. Todd had fifteen years of clinical experience and before that eight as a university professor. He was well versed in suicide prevention and intervention. “After his patient’s death, he refused to ever work with a patient again who even mentioned suicidal feeling states; he would refer them.” His stance is maintained to this day, six years later. His way of coping is not unusual among therapist-patients in my practice or across the profession. Whenever I present a paper on this topic, I hear stories of mental health professionals at all levels responding similarly. So understandably haunted, they desire to avoid any chance of experiencing a suicide loss again; some believe they can no longer objectively assess risk; and others feel traumatized, unable to clinically engage with a patient experiencing suicidal ideation or self-harm.

There are some other common coping approaches among therapist-survivors. They include all the ways we may become vigilant in our practice: taking numerous, even if repetitive, trainings on ethics and suicide prevention; developing a rigid stance in responding to patients expressing suicidal thoughts or intent; and intervening in overly-conservative ways that communicate anxiety to the patient rather than clinical engagement. In her essay for the collection, The Therapist in Mourning: From the Faraway Nearby (2013), Catherine Anderson describes these kinds of responses as part of the working through process with “a desperate need to understand what had happened and a magical wish to protect [oneself] against any future vulnerability.”

Another common response is to avoid examining clinical missed opportunities and errors, to defend against the pain, shame, and perhaps guilt that are simmering. Gina, a patient-clinician of mine, experienced a patient suicide after two sessions. When the patient did not show to the third session, Gina called. Subsequently, the patient’s father contacted Gina. He told her his son killed himself the day after the second session. It was excruciating for Gina to slowly begin to examine her state of mind during the sessions. She came to realize that she was, due to many factors, defending against making genuine a connection with this patient, and was more distant than usual. Her past clinical experience told her that when she has that kind of response, she hesitates exploring avenues that would be productive, and that she overlooks what later, when less defensive, was there all along. That was her missed opportunity. Of course, there is no telling if Gina had been less defended if that would have made a difference—given her a vital piece of clinical information that she could capitalize upon to then help the patient. It was crucially important, however, to Gina’s healing process to bring into consciousness what she already actually knew about herself in her brief work with the patient.

The ground of my being was continually moving beneath me after Jill’s suicide. Because of my life history and my working with it in therapeutic ways, I knew my footing could be regained, but I questioned when that would happen. I returned to writings that reminded me about how vulnerable groundlessness really is and how inevitable it is as well. Pema Chodron, in When Things Fall Apart, writes:

“[T]hings don’t really get solved. They come together and they fall apart. Then they come together again and fall apart again. It's just like that. The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen: room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy."

Her perspective, for me, reflects what I believe and practice in my private and professional life, but can easily forget in times of great tumult. It is a kind of perspective that provides me refuge.

I knew from my history that if I refused to directly experience what was present within me I would only harden my heart. Cutting myself off by armoring my heart would negatively impact my relationships with other patients, let alone the relationships in my personal circle and my relationship to life itself.

The practice of mindfulness meditation is one way I engage my direct experience, and it had been a practice of mine for many years before I began my clinical work. I returned to intensive practice after sustaining the many family deaths in quick succession aforementioned; I spent a month on a silent meditation retreat as well. The amount of silence offered was an integral experience for my body, heart, and mind to begin having room to feel through those traumatic losses. With Jill’s death, I returned to steady meditation practice again, in order to create room inside myself for the range of feelings I was experiencing. It sounds, perhaps, so simple, so easy, and yet it is not. Silently meditating twice daily confronted me with every vulnerability, every feeling, body sensation, and thought I possessed. Profound shame, futility, anger, banality, and sorrow as well as heartache and headache were some of the many storms I weathered sitting quietly on my meditation cushion. Yet it was the silence and the generous observing accompaniment to myself that were central in my finding footing again.

Ritual as Scaffolding

James Hillman suggests that in the face of patient suicide the clinician go into the context of the death—not to stay on the surface. His advice speaks to delving into our interior world, and grieving, but also something more. He suggests lending all of our knowledge of our patient to the endeavor as well, exploring as thoroughly as possible nuances of our patient’s suicide.

With Jill, intuitively I knew I needed rituals as a frame in my quest to deeply understand her suicide to the best of my abilities, as well as to mourn her death and all of the losses accompanying it. One ritual that was obvious was the therapy itself. There are the set days and times of sessions; the usual pattern of entering and exiting sessions with some of their inevitable variability; the parameters of the relationship.

Keenly aware of how groundless I felt, I longed for grounding in the ritual of my sessions with Jill. “I could not fathom scheduling another patient in Jill’s session times. I realized what I wanted was to keep my appointment with Jill. So I did just that: I kept my appointments with Jill for one year.” Sometimes I went to a meditation space near my office for the appointment; sometimes I was in a natural setting. Other times, I spent it in my office. Wherever I chose to spend the sessions, I also was with Jill. Sometimes reading a book of poetry that evoked Jill, or intentionally recollecting parts of sessions.

By the second week of appointments with Jill, I began writing during the time. I used poetry as a companion. Sometimes I wrote to Jill, sometimes extemporaneously to the Reader with a capital R. An excerpt follows of one of my writings:

I reviewed notes on Jill I came across; process notes. Notes when Brian spoke with me several weeks ago. There is much that remains unsolved in my heart. And it’s in my heart, especially, that time takes its own rhythm, a time that doesn’t match up with the clocks and the calendars.

It’s sorrow or poignancy, both, being touched by Jill—I’m feeling right now. Knowing I’m not alone, really, in such an experience ultimately—like anyone grieving anything how universal and connected to the everyday human experience this actually is. Paradoxically how alone and singular I feel. Alien among colleagues who have not experienced such a violent loss. A lone mourner.

Jill suffered in body and mind, physical and emotional pain. Her physicality used to be a route to survival as a child and a young adult. Her physicality was already failing her. The grief she felt was so layered and frequently linked to all the losses felt trans-generationally across her family history. And even this doesn’t say all she felt and lived with.

I can and do write circles of theory or case formulation but that is not what I’m desiring here. I feel almost desperate to continue delving into this process with her in this kind of way, unsure of where it is leading.

Strange, I guess, to feel the shock, still, that she is dead. I just know the only way to move with this, through this, to be with it all, is to do what I’m doing. Let it come in words or feelings. Let it come through me, in silence.

Of course, the questions remaining in the aftermath of suicide usually cannot be fully answered, but answering all the questions is not the point of such a process. If there is an aim, it is the recognition that the clinician continues in relationship without her (or his) partner in the dyad. Feeling and thinking alongside that recognition is the heart of the process. Psychologist Robert Gaines would call this the stitching together of continuity our relationship to the dead. Finding a relational home once again. Finding one’s clinical and human voice again.

Other rituals also occurred to me related to mourning, whether a formal memorial or an informal honoring, as well as creating continuity. By the end of the second week of appointments with the spirit of Jill, I realized I needed two additional things: to visit where she died, and to create some kind of memorial. There was no funeral service for Jill; she had no family or close community. Something of our process together needed representation. Something of her treasured symbols shared with me needed representation. And something of our relationship needed representation too.

Brian drew me a virtual map in verbal description as to where she died. Over the next four appointments with the spirit of Jill, I developed a memorial. A colleague accompanied me on the day that I set, and we drove to the place close to where Brian described. We walked the remainder of the way. Although Jill chose a place where she surely would be discovered, it was not an overly exposed public place. When I got there, I wept. I wept not because of her death in that moment but because of the purposefulness of the place. I recognized it, immediately, based on our work together. Based on what Jill shared with me. I could see how Jill, with her particular perspective, felt beauty in this place. The place fit into the story of her life, the story she shared with me. The story we made sense of together. The place symbolized what she would frequently discuss and feel, the existentials of existence, and the evolution of her life.

The ritual included flowers, some writing I read to commemorate Jill, and a prayer combined with poetry I put together to reflect our relationship. My colleague and I sat in silence afterward, listening to the sounds around us. I felt close to Jill in the moment. Through the scaffolding of this ritual, as well as the ritual of appointments with her, I began to understand some meanings in her death, and I regained my voice once again.

Jill genuinely affected me—her life as well as her death. Destruction, and particularly self-destruction, surrounded her in the history of her life yet she developed into a highly deliberate, aesthetically-minded, symbolically-attuned woman who struggled with looming thoughts that dragged her into familiar mire she was accustomed to escaping by vigorously and creatively using her body, no longer available to her. Her suicide was equally aesthetically minded—if you forgive the stretch of the word in this context but rather feel into the contour of its meaning. I noticed this in numerous ways from the evidence she left behind, the chosen place of her death, the timing of her death, to her message left for me.

I was acutely aware in working with Jill of my family standing with me, for they are there, always, in the background of my mind and heart, like a luminous shawl. How the experience of their tragic, violent, and sorrowful deaths created, initially, a nuclear-sized crater within me that since healed—and continues to evolve in healing—with scarred but incredibly strong layers. Layers of capacity and depth for ambiguity, curiosity, and love in the face of enormous challenge, rejection, and destruction. I never revealed to Jill my personal history, yet I felt it was these very experiences and my working with them, through them, that enabled me to meet Jill in the dark and light of her psyche without collapsing. All of these details and their meaning that I came to understand over time enabled me to continue to serve fully in my life in all ways professionally and personally with openness.

Relational Home for One Another

Clinician-survivors come in contact with the real attachment felt for the person who died in the process of mourning. Regardless of theoretical orientation or therapeutic stance, there was (and is) a relationship. The basis of the relationship is connection, care, and likely love. Therapists may have difficulty admitting they love their patients; some secretly do so with shame as if caring were untoward. When working in my practice with therapists mourning a suicide, moving through the shame of caring to the healing and human quality of caring is vital.

Clinician-survivors ask me to be their therapist initially because they find my contact information from the American Association of Suicidology’s website. There, among numerous resources, is a link to resources for clinician-survivors. Clinicians who contact me often gingerly express their desire for support, understandably fearing an amplification of shame they already are carrying. Shame demolishes a person’s sense of self. Shame isolates and evicts us from our relational home.

Some studies have explored the ubiquitousness with which clinician-survivors are met with judgment and shaming from colleagues. It has been found that clinicians who have not experienced a suicide loss professionally or personally are more likely to assume that there must have been something the treating clinician had done wrong. One way to understand this is to consider the nature of trauma. People involved in the traumatic event, either directly or indirectly (hearing of it, etc.), hold parts of the experience and defend against the emotional enormity of it. Blame, shame, grandiosity, omnipotence, and guilt are often convoluted in the mix. Unbearable feelings are projected or disavowed. Most of us “know” this, but when we are in the midst of it ourselves we can forget.

Before I entered my contact information on the clinician-survivor network, I carefully considered this act—a public acknowledgment of an aspect of my history. Before I agreed to write this article, which is drawn from a public presentation I gave to two different professional organizations, I considered how my history in print felt quite different than speaking it. I sensed the risk I felt in both instances. For me the risk is primarily located in relationship to colleagues unfamiliar with suicide loss. My feeling of risk among the professional community is not singular—it is cited repeatedly as a way that therapists feel shame for their grief in relation to patients generally, and most especially the shame felt when a patient completes suicide.

Coming out, so to speak, on the website and in this article are acts of advocacy for other therapists in a direct way, and ultimately also, I believe, advocacy for patients. Coming out in these ways are antidotes to shame as well, although revealing oneself carries with it a chance of being judged or shamed. Hiding when feeling shame, after all, is a protective solution to those risks—albeit risks that are generalized. Two anecdotes may elucidate.

When a psychologist-colleague found out that I publicly acknowledged my identity as a suicide survivor, he questioned me. He wondered if I were exposing something that “should” be hidden. His sense of hiding was initially justified by the importance of neutral stance and limited self-disclosure. With further exploration between us, however, my colleague came to realize that he felt anxious and even dissociated when hearing about my experiences. His shaming reaction toward me was a coping mechanism for his anxieties.

Another colleague responded quite differently to finding out about my public acknowledgment as a suicide survivor. Her response: There but before the grace of God go I. She too felt anxious hearing my experience, but she remained in communion with me. She shared her anxiety and her wishful fantasy that she would never experience this kind of trauma. Through our discussion, we created a relational home for one another.

In therapy, we create, with our patients, a relational home. While this home is focused on the patient’s needs, it is irrevocably the particular home we live in with our patient. That home continues to live inside of the therapist-survivor after the patient dies. In Trauma and Human Existence: Autobiographical, Psychoanalytic, and Philosophical Reflections (2007), Robert Stolorow writes, “The mangling and the darkness can be enduringly borne, not in solitude, but in relational contexts of deep emotional attunement and understanding.” The loss of a patient or a loved one by suicide is unfathomable, though we know it happens. It is nothing short of a cataclysmic trauma, one that is enormous to digest. The impact of it on clinicians has been compared to the traumatic loss of a parent. It is a leveling experience for it takes us out of our protected role as therapist and throws us into the most humble, bare experience of our own humanity.

Brian, the psychiatrist, only learned of my family history after Jill’s death. He wondered, “Perhaps there is some unconscious way Jill knew you could make meaning of and bear her death.” It is curious whatever Jill may have implicitly known of me—but ultimately that is something I will never know. Importantly, it was not lost on me, her therapist, the relevance of the place she chose to die. What it meant to her, what she communicated to me in her final message, and what she communicated in her choice of place. It was not lost on me, her therapist, the layered meanings in the timing of death. The curious exploration of these among other unspoken aspects of our work together was what I gave voice to in my year of kept appointments. A year of rediscovering meaning. A year of regaining clarity, ground, and clinical voice. A year of examining the soul of the process between us, and what lived on within me.

***

Following is a list of readings and resources for clinicians and clinician-survivors who wish to learn more about, and seek support for, the grief of losing a client to suicide.

The clinician-survivor network of the American Association of Suicidiology provides consultation, resources, support, and education to mental health professionals in the aftermath of suicide loss, personally and/or professionally. The website includes nationwide clinicians available as resources, as well as an extensive bibliography.

Anderson, C. (2013). "When what we have to offer isn’t enough" in Malawista, K. and Adelmari, A., Eds. The therapist in mourning: from the faraway nearby. New York: Columbia University.

Boulanger, G. (2002). Wounded by Reality: understanding and treating adult onset trauma. New Jersey: Analytic Press.

Buechler, S. (2000). "Necessary and unnecessary losses: the analyst’s mourning." Contemporary Psychoanalysis 36: 77-90.

Chodron, P. (2000). When things fall apart: heart advice for difficult times. Boston: Shambhala Publications.

DeYoung, P., (2015). Understanding and treating chronic shame: a relational/neurobiological approach. New York: Routledge.

Gaines, R. (1997). "Detachment and continuity: the two tasks of mourning." Contemporary Psychoanalysis 33(4): 549-571.

Hillman, J. (1997). Suicide and the soul. Connecticut: Spring Publications.

Michaels, A. (1997). Memoriam in The Weight of Oranges / Miner’s Pond. Toronto: McClelland & Stewart.

Plakun, E. & Tillman, J. (2005). "Responding to clinicians after loss of a patient to suicide." Retrieved December 2013 from http://www.austenriggs.org.

Stolorow, R. (2011). "Portkeys, eternal recurrence, and the phenomenology of traumatic temporality." International Journal of Psychoanalytic Self Psychology, 6:433-436.

Stolorow, R. (2007). Trauma and human existence: autobiographical, psychoanalytic, and philosophical reflections. New York: Routledge.

Tillman, J. (2006). "When a patient commits suicide: an empirical study of psychoanalytic clinicians." The International Journal of Psychoanalysis, 87(1), 159-177.

 

Ronald Siegel on Integrating Mindfulness into Psychotherapy

Mindfulness is an Attitude Toward Experience

Deb Kory: Ronald Siegel, you’re an assistant professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School, a longtime student and teacher of mindfulness meditation, on the faculty of the Institute for Psychotherapy and Meditation and in private practice as a psychotherapist. You’ve done a great deal of work in bringing mindfulness to chronic pain patients and co-wrote a book called Back Sense: A Revolutionary Approach to Halting the Cycle of Chronic Back Pain as well as one for therapists, Sitting Together: Essential Skills for Mindfulness-based Psychotherapy. Most exciting of all—for us at least—you are the star of a new video we produced and are releasing this month called Integrating Mindfulness into Counseling and Psychotherapy, which features you doing mindfulness-based psychotherapy with real clients. In it, you go into great detail about the theory and practice of mindfulness-based psychotherapy, and also do four different therapy sessions with clients each presenting different issues. For our readers who haven’t yet had a chance to watch it, let’s start with the basics: What is mindfulness?
Ronald D. Siegel:
Mindfulness is an attitude toward experience—approaching any moment of our lives with both awareness and acceptance.
Mindfulness is an attitude toward experience—approaching any moment of our lives with both awareness and acceptance. Many people mistake mindfulness for mindfulness meditation, which is actually an umbrella term for many different practices that are designed to cultivate mindfulness, some of which involve following an object of awareness, like the breath, others of which involve things like loving kindness practice or equanimity practices. Those are practices designed to cultivate mindfulness, but mindfulness itself is an attitude toward moment-to-moment experience.
DK: Is it possible to practice mindfulness without having some experience with meditation?
RS: Absolutely. We all have moments in which we’re mindful, in which our minds and bodies show up for an experience. In fact, you might take a minute just now, while reading this, to think of a meaningful moment you’ve had. People will often say, the birth of a child or a graduation or getting married or a particular sunset or a conversation with a friend—all of those moments are essentially moments in which our attention is in the present. We’re accepting of what’s happening and we’re not lost in fantasies of the past that we call memories, nor fantasies of the future. We’re actually present.

We have many moments of this kind of mindful presence in the course of our lives, it’s just that once we start to be attentive to various states of consciousness, we notice that they’re the exception, rather than the rule. They’re relatively rare. So we do mindfulness practices to cultivate more of these moments in our lives.
DK: A sunset or being with a loved one—those are positive experiences. Do we tend to be more mindful in positive moments?
RS: I think instinctually we are, because when we’re experiencing painful moments, we recoil from them. We try to change them or get them to stop, and it takes some practice to open to unpleasant experiences as well. That is a central part of mindfulness practices, particularly in the therapeutic arena, where we understand one aspect of psychopathology as a tendency to resist experience, to try to make it stop.
DK: You are considered a mindfulness expert of sorts and you’re also a psychologist. Have you always brought mindfulness into your psychotherapy practice?
RS: Well, I’d like to challenge that designation first. I’m certainly not a poster child for the practice, given my experience with my own unruly mind. However, I first started practicing mindfulness back in high school, so I have been at it for some time and the principles associated with mindfulness have always infused my psychotherapy practice. In fact, when I learned more conventional psychotherapeutic techniques like cognitive behavior therapy, psychodynamic techniques, systems techniques, humanistic psychological techniques, it was always against the backdrop of Buddhist psychology, which is really the ground out of which mindfulness practices grew.

Our Relentless Tendency Toward "Selfing"

DK: How do therapists actually bring mindfulness into therapy?
RS:
Experienced psychotherapists are perfectly capable of having a full session, making reflective comments, insightful interpretations, all while planning a 12-course meal and having our attention quite divided.
Mindfulness can infuse psychotherapy on many different levels. It can infuse psychotherapy simply on the level of the practicing psychotherapist—what happens to us as the tool or instrument of treatment when we start practicing ourselves. For example, we start to actually show up in the room more fully. Experienced psychotherapists are perfectly capable of having a full session, making reflective comments, insightful interpretations, all while planning a 12-course meal and having our attention quite divided.
DK: Shhhh, that’s supposed to be a secret!
RS: Yeah, don’t tell people outside of the field! But the more we practice mindfulness, the more we’re able to be present. The other thing that happens is our capacity to be with and bear difficult emotions increases a great deal as we take up these practices. As therapists, we tend to hear about painful matters all day long, and sometimes it feels like too much, so we start to shut down our feelings; that can get in the way of being present. Mindfulness practices can help us to remain open in a fresh way to those painful feelings.

At the next level, there’s what we might call mindfulness-informed psychotherapy, which involves gaining insights into how the mind creates suffering for itself—through our own mindfulness practice and through the experience of longtime practitioners. As we gain some of those insights, we start to see certain patterns of mind that begin to inform our models of psychotherapy. For example, our relentless tendency toward “selfing”— creating narratives in our minds, starring me. These narratives are often quite distorted and create a tremendous amount of tension and suffering as we try to hold on to one self image and abort another.

As we see this through our own mindfulness practice, we start to notice that our clients or patients seem to be struggling with the same thing and we can help them with that by drawing upon our own insights and practices. Similarly, noticing the tendency to resist experience and how that multiplies difficulty. In psychotherapy, regardless of what sort of treatment we’re doing, we try to help people move toward, rather than away from, painful experience. To be more present, rather than to be lost in the thought stream involving narratives about the past and the future. That’s a mindfulness-informed psychotherapy.

Finally, there’s the option that comes out of our own experience of doing meditation and realizing that it helps us be more present, clear, have greater affect tolerance, more perspective, and more wisdom in on our lives, as well as more compassion for others. We think, “Hmm, maybe this could help my clients or patients to do this same. Perhaps I’ll teach it to some of them.” I should underscore that it’s about teaching it to some of them and having a map or an understanding of what sort of people might respond well to which sorts of mindfulness practices, at what stages in treatment or stages in life development. It’s not a one-size-fits-all practice.

When Mindfulness is Contraindicated

DK: Isn’t it actually contraindicated for some people?
RS: It’s absolutely contraindicated for many people. For example, for folks who have a lot of unresolved trauma, meaning they’ve experienced painful events in their lives that were too difficult to fully let into awareness at the time, so some aspect of them has been blocked. Maybe it’s the narrative historical memory of the event that’s blocked, maybe it’s the affect associated with the experience that’s blocked, but in some way, the experience has been disavowed. Folks like that, if they start doing certain mindfulness practices, such as spending time following the breath, tend to become quite overwhelmed with the rush of previously blocked material that comes into awareness.

The most problematic adverse effect is due to “derepression,” or the rushing into awareness of things which defensively have been held out of awareness.
A colleague of mine at Brown University named Willoughby Britain is doing a large study on the adverse effects of mindfulness practices, and the most problematic adverse effect is due to what she calls “derepression,” which is this rushing into awareness of things which defensively have been held out of awareness up until the start of mindfulness practices. So, much as we wouldn’t in psychotherapy start talking about material in a vivid way that someone’s not ready to talk about, we don’t want to start doing mindfulness practices that might be premature for various people.
DK: Is Britton against using mindfulness at all in psychotherapy?
RS: No, she’s a mindfulness practitioner herself, a research psychologist who is very enthusiastic about these things and is trying to map this territory. What many meditation teachers know from observation is that these adverse effects are much more likely when somebody attends an intensive silent retreat over the course of many days. But I’ve lead countless groups of psychotherapists through mindfulness practices that are as short as 20-30 minutes and it’s not unusual for one or two members of the group to become overwhelmed by the experience, either by the emotions that comes up or by bodily sensations that they tend to keep out of awareness with constant activity and entertainment. Many, many people are vulnerable to reconnecting with split-off contents.
DK: Let’s say someone comes in to see you for psychotherapy and they haven’t done much psychotherapy and they seem somewhat fragile in this way. How might you work with them?
RS: What’s interesting is there are many mindfulness practices that actually help to create a sense of safety, that create a sense of holding, as Winnicott would say. There are mindfulness practices that are akin to guided imagery or have aspects that feel like hypnosis, and if they’re done in the context of a trusting therapeutic relationship, bring the safety of the therapeutic alliance into the experience of the mindfulness practice.

There are also practices that ground us in the safe aspects of moment-to-moment experience. Walking meditation, where we’re feeling the sensations of the feet touching the ground, or listening meditation, where we’re listening to the sounds of nature or the ambient sounds in the city. Or nature meditation, where we’re looking at clouds and trees and sky. Those objects, since they tend to be safe for most people and bring our awareness away from the core of the body—away from where we tend to identify emotion as happening and toward a safe outer environment—can be very stabilizing. In fact, many of those practices are conventionally in trauma treatment called “grounding” practices because they create safety.

A Transtheoretical Mechanism

DK: It seems to me like everybody in our profession is talking about mindfulness these days. And approaches that I would assume are kind of strange bedfellows—CBT and mindfulness, psychoanalysis and mindfulness—are being paired together. If you go to Psychology Today and look at the profiles of psychotherapists, mindfulness is now a little bullet-point you can select as an orientation. I often wonder if most practitioners actually know what they’re talking about when they claim to work within a mindfulness framework. Like, are they saying that because they’ve been to a one-day meditation retreat or are they actually genuinely skilled in this approach?
RS: Well, I think it’s the same as with any psychotherapeutic model, theory or treatment system—people have very variable levels of understanding of what they’re doing. There are some people who have a great deal of wisdom, compassion and knowledge, who are saying that they’re doing mindfulness-oriented treatments, and there are other people who have a much more cursory exposure to it and may not have much depth of personal experience, but are intrigued by the idea or see it as a useful concept to identify with because other people may be interested in it and looking for a therapist who has some expertise.

But I do think that the field is still in its infancy in terms of really understanding the psychological, as well as the neurobiological, effects of these practices.
The field is still in its infancy in terms of really understanding the psychological, as well as the neurobiological, effects of these practices.
It’s quite a complex field, with many different practices, each one affecting the mind, the brain and the body in different ways and in different ways for different individuals. So while we can make some generalizations and have some guidelines, I think clinicians are best served to see it as very complex.

To the other point that you made about various forms of treatment being incongruent with mindfulness, I actually don’t think most are. I think of mindfulness as a transtheoretical mechanism that is operating in virtually any effective psychotherapy, because virtually any effective psychotherapy is going to help people step out of irrational, unhelpful cognitive patterns. Virtually any effective psychotherapy is going to help people connect with, feel and embrace an increasingly wide range of emotions. Virtually any psychotherapy is going to try to help people to engage more fully moment-to-moment in their lives. Since these are cardinal features of mindfulness practice, you can see them as being helpful in virtually any form of treatment.
DK: So you don’t see it as its own model or approach, but more an attitude and set of practices that are brought into all approaches.
RS: Very much so. While we might choose to actually teach a mindfulness practice to a given client or a patient in a given psychotherapy, that could be done within the context of a cognitive behavioral treatment, a systemic treatment, a humanistic treatment, a psychodynamic treatment and many others as well.

When graduate students come to me and say, “I want to get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Where should I go to school? What kind of training should I have?” I tend to implore them, “Please don’t get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Please get trained as a therapist, first and foremost. Have some understanding of the complexities of the human mind and body, some understanding of the myriad forms of psychopathology that we can get stuck in, a good introspective understanding of your own issues and conflicts and how they get in the way of relating to other people, and get supervision from people who’ve been working with troubled folks for a long time; once you develop that foundation, then integrate mindfulness practices into psychotherapy.”
When graduate students come to me and say, “I want to get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Where should I go to school? What kind of training should I have?” I tend to implore them, “Please don’t get trained as a mindfulness therapist.”


Of course it’s very valuable all along in your training to be doing your own mindfulness practice, to maybe even have a meditation teacher that you turn to for advice. Extremely useful. But if I had a friend who was struggling psychologically and I had the choice of either sending them to a brilliant mindfulness practitioner with very limited clinical training or a reasonably good clinician with reasonably good training as a clinician, but who’d never heard of mindfulness, I would send that person to the clinician in a heartbeat.

We Are Hardwired for Misery

DK: That’s an interesting point. I live in the Bay Area, and there are a lot of people who are really into Buddhism and mindfulness practices, who kind of eschew psychotherapy for more spiritual practices of meditation and yoga. But at the same time, I know that the Buddhist teachers around here are often imploring people to get therapy, to not do the “spiritual bypass” thing and avoid the work of getting into the muck of our psyches and how they impact our relationships and lives.
RS: Yes, absolutely. Jack Kornfield, who teaches at Spirit Rock in the Bay Area and has written many books on the subject of integrating psychology and Buddhism, recently wrote an article about highly experienced mindfulness meditation teachers, Buddhist teachers, who needed to go into psychotherapy. Ultimately, it’s not that one is better than the other—they are both pathways toward sanity. There are so many pathways to insanity that we actually need a variety of tools to work toward sanity.

I would argue that our natural evolutionarily determined predilection is to be quite nuts and quite miserable.
I would argue that our natural evolutionarily determined predilection is to be quite nuts and quite miserable. As Rick Hanson, who wrote Buddha’s Brain: The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love & Wisdom, puts it, “Our brains are like velcro for bad experiences and teflon for good ones.” It’s a total setup for human misery, not to mention the hardwired tendency toward self-preservation that makes us concerned with how we rank compared to the other primates in our troop, which results in endless self-esteem concerns.

We are hardwired for misery. It is a good thing that we have both Western psychotherapeutic techniques that can help us untangle our narratives and get in touch with our feelings and do that in a healing, interpersonal context, and also have access to mindfulness and compassion practices that can help us transcend our personal story to see existential reality, to face the reality of change and death, to face the reality of sickness and old age, and develop sanity through those practices as well.
DK: As mindfulness practices are becoming more mainstream in the psychotherapy community and the medical community, it’s also becoming more secularized. People might go to their primary care physician and be prescribed a mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) class for high blood pressure, and never even hear the word “Buddhism.” Is there a downside to that?
RS: Let me talk about the upside first and then the downside. The Dalai Lama was talking to a group of clinicians and researchers at Emory University about depression, and toward the end of the conference, I remember being quite moved when he said, “If you folks discover that some elements of Buddhist meditation practices are useful for alleviating depression, I really have only one request for you: please, please don’t tell people that it comes from Buddhism. My tradition is about alleviating suffering, and if you tell people that these are Buddhist practices, you’re going to miss huge numbers of people whose suffering could be alleviated. Don’t get hung up on that. Express this in whatever form is going to be useful in alleviating suffering.”

So my inclination is to tailor our psychotherapy practices to the cultural background, needs, and proclivities of whoever we’re working with. There’s no need to present mindfulness in a way that is going to be alienating. Not only do you not need to mention Buddhism, you don’t need to mention meditation. These practices can be presented simply as attentional control training. When we train our attention differently, we have very different psychological experiences and it helps us both gain insight and cut through all sorts of forms of suffering.

The first rule of psychotherapy is to meet the client or patient where he or she is, and this should not be forced upon people as some alien cultural system, and nor should people be forced to consider the implications of these practices for developing wisdom and compassion if all they’re hoping for at the moment is a little bit less anxiety. That may come later down the road, but we can help them with that anxiety first.

That being said, there are potentials to these practices that are very deep, very wide, and very rich. If a clinician learns mindfulness-based stress reduction and sees these practices primarily as a tool for helping people to relax, they will miss some of the depth and some of the breadth of what these practices can offer. I think it’s useful for clinicians to practice with some intensity themselves, so they can see personally how transformative these practices can be, in a way that goes far, far beyond any benefits that come from relaxation training. It can be very useful for clinicians to learn about Buddhist psychology. It is a very profound and helpful way to understand the mind and how we get caught in suffering.
DK: I think that there’s a lot of mystery and mystification around what mindfulness is, and one of the great things about this new video with you we’re releasing is that we get to see you doing meditation with clients, and modulating it to the specific needs of each client. In real life you don’t do meditation with everyone, but this gives psychotherapists a chance to see what it looks like to bring it into a session.

I think a lot of people are kind of scared to do it and I know that when I first started doing it in my therapy sessions—and I only do it occasionally—I was actually surprised at how profound an experience it was for people and that it had the capacity to stir up some really intense memories. It’s a powerful tool that we have to learn how to use. Can you say a little bit about how you modulate and decide to use meditation in therapy sessions?
RS: First I’d like to pick up on one thing you said.
Many people in our society are involved in states of distraction all day long. Google says we check our cell phone on average 125 times a day.
Many people in our society are involved in states of distraction all day long. Google says we check our cell phone on average 125 times a day. We spend hours watching television. We spend a lot of time chatting with friends. There’s nothing with that—all of these things can have wholesome aspects to them and can make for a rich and interesting life, but for many of us, they keep us from really noticing what’s happening in our minds and in our hearts in each moment. They help to insulate us from the hundreds of micro-traumas that most of us experience just going through the day. The little disappointments, the “I wonder what she meant by that,” the “I didn’t do that as skillfully as I would have,” or “I haven’t quite achieved what I wanted in my life.” Endless, endless reflections, each of which has a bit of pain in it and each of which we want to distract ourselves from with various forms of entertainment and engagement. When people start taking up these practices, all of the pain of those micro-traumas start to come into awareness, and they can indeed be unsettling. Of course they also offer the opportunity to integrate all of that, which is a wonderful potential. So I think we have to be very judicious about it.

My main criteria for whether to actually teach mindfulness practice in a session are twofold; one is, what’s the person’s cultural background and how weird are they going to think it is to choose an object of attention and bring attention to that and return to that object when the mind wanders? Because for some people, it’s like, “forget it, man, that’s not me.”
DK: Yeah, on of the clients in the video, Julia, is a bit like that.
RS: For folks like that, I’m going to be very judicious about it, but one can bring mindfulness into psychotherapy in many, many ways that don’t involve teaching meditation. I already spoke about the shift in our attitude and our capacity for presence as psychotherapists that occurs, as well as the shifts in our models for psychopathology and for what might help people out of psychopathology that might come from our own practice.

Let’s say we’re sitting with somebody and it’s clear that some feeling got triggered. The conventional way to respond to that in therapy is, “What are you feeling now?” A slightly different way to ask the question might be, “what did you notice happening in the body and the mind right now?” That little shift in phrasing starts to shift the conversation from the normal narrative about “my life starring me,” to an observational stance—to what the CBT folks would call “metacognitive awareness,” or what the analysts would call “observing ego.”

To begin to watch and to identify a little bit with awareness itself, rather than the contents of the process. Of course it might be skillful or it might be unskillful in any given moment. For one person at one moment, what they need is to feel your empathic connection to them and saying, “What were you feeling at that moment?” might feel more empathically connected. But for somebody else, they might need to develop some of this observing ego or metacognitive awareness, and if we’re phrasing it in a slightly more objective way, it might serve that purpose. That begins to develop a little bit of mindfulness, even though we’re not doing anything that looks like meditation.

The second criterion I use is, “What’s their capacity to be with their experience?” If they have very little capacity to be with their experience, I want to start with very small doses and very non-threatening contents. If they have more capacity to be with their experience, we can dive into larger doses and get at whatever arises in consciousness right now. It really depends on the person.

Lighten Up

DK: You mentioned CBT and metacognition and it seems like a lot of what’s happening in mindfulness interventions is “noticing.” In CBT, I tend to think of it more as not just noticing, but blocking or counteracting thoughts. Is there also a methodology within mindfulness training where you’re being more directive with the material that comes up in the brain, or is that off limits?
RS: That’s a very interesting question. Let me correct one thing. There’s noticing, and there’s also feeling in a wholehearted way. I think one mistake people make is they assume that this is a very cognitive kind of endeavor and that’s only one part of it. The other part is really opening to what’s happening on a heart level, in terms of really feeling feelings, as well as noticing what’s happening in the interpersonal field and our relationships and connecting in an alive and juicy way to experience. So I just want to mention that first.

Secondly, CBT folks have described it as the third wave of behavior therapy. The first wave was Skinner on one hand and Pavlov and Watson on the other hand. Operant and classical conditioning and working with modifying behavior. Then came the very important insight that human beings, unlike other laboratory animals, think a lot and our thoughts have tremendous impact on both our emotions and on our behavior. So maybe what we should be doing is using behavioral principles, learning theory, to modify thoughts.

The third wave is coming from a different direction:
What if we start to see all thought as essentially fluid, suspect, unreliable, and based on emotion?
What if we start to see all thought as essentially fluid, suspect, unreliable, and based on emotion? These acceptance and mindfulness-based approaches are all about lightening up in relation to thought, rather than trying to get rid of the bad and hold onto the good.

In my experience, that can be quite powerful, but it takes a while. It’s a much more subtle and in some ways sophisticated way to work with the mind than just replacing maladaptive irrational thoughts with adaptive rational ones. After all, one person’s adaptive, rational thought, is another person’s insanity. We all may agree about our zip code and whether it’s raining at the moment, but as soon as we get into more complex matters, humans differ a great deal and I think we’d do better to have a more relativistic approach toward different thoughts.
DK: So the third wave basically posits that we are all insane.
RS: Yes, we’re all insane. This is a little bit of a bold summary, but my impression of the last 15 or 20 years of advances in cognitive science is basically the realization that all the processes that we’ve thought of as rational are irrational, that bias, desire, cultural proclivity, those kinds of factors are really what determine how and what we think. The idea that we are rational organisms analyzing data for positive goals—yeah, occasionally, but that’s not mostly how we tick. So if we can lighten up generally in our approach to thinking, I think that’s quite helpful.
DK: That is a perfect place to end. Thank you so much for sharing the insights of your otherwise unruly mind.
RS: It’s been a pleasure.

Thupten Jinpa on Fearless Compassion

A Fearless Heart

David Bullard: I am so pleased and honored to meet you and to have this opportunity to talk a little bit. I’m also looking forward to seeing you when you come out to the Bay Area next month on your book tour for A Fearless Heart: How the Courage to Be Compassionate Can Transform Our Lives and for some talks and workshops. I just read the book and I couldn’t put it down. It’s fantastic. And to prepare for this interview and to learn more about your work, I also bought and am reading your first book based on your Cambridge PhD dissertation, Self, Reality and Reason in Tibetan Philosophy (2002).
Thupten Jinpa: Oh yeah, that was a heavy-duty undertaking.
DB: Heavy duty reading, too! It will require further slow reading! But the new book is very accessible. I even feel calmness in talking with a revered and accomplished person like you right now because of all the compassion I felt from the book for all of us.
TJ: That’s great.
DB: Those first 100 pages impact the reader at the intellectual level, because of the all of the research, and all you bring to bear from Western science. But you integrate feelings so well with stories from your own life, many wonderful quotations, and the suggested meditation activities from the compassion training you helped develop at Stanford. It’s going to help many, many people.
TJ: Thank you. That was the motivation for writing it.
DB: How did you decide to make compassion the central point of your work in this book?
TJ: As someone who grew up with refugee parents in a refugee community, the impact of compassion was real on a day-to-day basis. The schools that we went to, the clothes that we received all were donated from around the world.
From a very early age I knew that almost everything for the development of our refugee community was made possible thanks to other people’s generosity.
From a very early age I knew that almost everything for the development of our refugee community was made possible thanks to other people’s generosity. I think that probably was a very important fact in my life.

The second thing is, because of being brought up in a traditional Tibetan society, compassion is probably the highest spiritual value and is very present in the religious and spiritual consciousness of the Tibetan people. Starting from the Tibetan symbol of the Dalai Lama being a kind of manifestation of the Buddha of compassion….being an embodiment of compassion. Then there is the everyday mantra that we recite, “Om mani padme om,” being a symbol of compassion. So compassion is very, very present in the everyday religious and spiritual life of a Tibetan person.

Also the work that I continue to do for His Holiness is very much around compassion. Because if there is one thing that His Holiness promotes everywhere, in addition to peace, it’s compassion. The bottom line of his message, wherever he travels, is really about compassion. I’ve done a lot of that service for him, which is a service to the promotion of compassion.
DB: Both in what you lived by experiencing it as refugees, and in the whole teaching that’s infused your culture for thousands of years.
TJ: Yes, exactly. I remember when I was growing up and I was in a boarding school, and once in a while the school would arrange for some of us children whose parents were working on road constructions in the local Simla area to be driven there for a couple of days. My parents were moving from camp to camp in these tents as the roads were progressing, and every morning, I remember waking up in a tent full of smoke and steam from Tibetan tea being made, and my mother chanting the Four Immeasurables prayer: “May all beings be free of suffering and its causes.” These are things that I grew up with. Of course, as a kid, you know, words are words— they may not mean much. But the sound of these prayers and these lines were deeply imprinted in me.
DB: I understand what you mean by, “words are words” for children, but I have to share with you, a friend has a wonderful granddaughter who, when she was three-and-a-half or four years old, said, “Loving people is so much fun!” Which I think also could have been one of the chapter titles of your book!
TJ: That's so!
DB: You have such wonderful quotes beginning each chapter of the book, pairing up East and West: A Tibetan saying with one by W.H. Auden, the First Panchen Lama and Charles Darwin, Gandhi and Aristotle, and even a quote by Tsongkhapa with (revealing Canada as your adopted home!) one by the writer Alice Munroe.

Your first chapter “The Best Kept Secret of Happiness: Compassion” is introduced by a comment attributed to the Buddha: “What is that one thing, which when you possess, you have all the other virtues? It’s compassion.” This is paired with Jean Jacques Rousseau “What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness?” These are beautifully chosen. And you also point out that when we are being compassionate and being kind, the paradox is it helps us all feel better.
TJ: Definitely.
Compassion and empathy—and an instinct for these—are very natural, and they are a deeply ingrained part of our psyche.
We are living in a very scientific age, and science carries a kind of weight at the societal level. But despite all of this, if we look at our own personal experience, on a day-to-day level if we try to remember when we were most happy, when we felt most full and complete, most of the time we will find that this was in the context of some kind of healthy relationship—something where we felt deeply connected; something where we felt deeply open and free in our interaction with someone. These are all expressions of compassion. One of the key points I try to argue in this book is that compassion and empathy—and an instinct for these—are very natural, and they are a deeply ingrained part of our psyche. We can make the choice to live as much as possible from that place, and if we are able to do that, then at the end of the day, we ourselves stand to gain more. It does sound kind of paradoxical. It’s almost like using a self-interest logic to advocate compassion.
DB: But you point out it’s more of a side effect than a motivation.
TJ: Exactly.

Compassion Cultivation Training

DB: I’m remembering when reading the book that I was not at all surprised to see that you are friends with Paul Gilbert, PhD, from the University at Derby, UK, who came last year to speak with us at UCSF and Stanford. The first thing he said to us was, “You know, your brain is a mess.” He waited, and then he said, “Because it’s hard-wired for fight or flight. Anger or fear. And you have to cultivate self-compassion,” which is what your book is all about—cultivating self-compassion and compassion for others, and understanding why it’s so important; but also how to do it. Which brings me to my next question. Can you tell us about the Compassion Cultivation Training (CCT) at The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education (CCARE) program at Stanford.”
TJ: My work at Stanford gave me an opportunity to really bring a much more systematic structure to what can be brought consciously into a secular environment. I took inspiration from the amazing success of the mindfulness movement, where a group of people—individually and later collectively—decided to look into the Buddhist contemplative sources to see what are the specific types of contemplative practices that can be brought out of the traditional context into the wider world, for the benefit of helping people. The focus was on overcoming problems and suffering, promoting a greater sense of well-being. Along with that came science and research. Ordinary people and secular-minded people can begin to look at these things and see if they work for them.

I thought that we could do something similar with compassion. One of the powers of mindfulness is it teaches us the skills to disengage. When we over-identify with our problems and thoughts, and start to believe the contents of thoughts as reality, mindfulness practice shows us that we can actually disengage and observe what’s occurring in us so that we don’t get swept away by the story we’re telling about ourselves.
DB: You’ve probably seen the bumper sticker that says, “Don’t believe everything you think.”
TJ: No, I haven’t seen it. That’s funny! And true!
DB: You’ve got several research articles, with Kelly McGonigal and others, showing that the compassion training decreased fear of compassion and increased self-compassion. How do you conceptualize compassion itself?
TJ: We’ve identified four components: An awareness of suffering which is cognitive; an affective sympathetic concern related to being emotionally moved by suffering; a wish to see the relief of that suffering, which is an intention; and a responsiveness or readiness to help relieve that suffering—a motivational component.

Our most recent article in the Journal of Positive Psychology, “A wandering mind is a less caring mind: Daily experience sampling during compassion meditation training,” found decreased mind wandering to neutral topics and increased caring behaviors for oneself and others.

We are also collaborating with psychologist and neuroscientist, Dr. Brian Knutson, researching the neural correlates of components of compassion in Buddhist adepts and novices. Together with many other researchers, there is quite a range of activities at CCARE deepening and broadening our awareness of the benefits of compassion and how best to cultivate it in people.

And the beauty I see is that, in a sense, compassion training is the next chapter in this very interesting cultural phenomenon. What compassion brings is, to use vernacular language, the “wet stuff”—our emotion and experience. And also, compassion is part of our motivation system: empathy, a sense of love and connection. Compassion plays a powerful role, if we allow it, as part of our motivation system.

Compassion also has an important role in shaping our intention. If we can bring conscious cultivation of compassion to help us shape our intention, we bring a more enlightened content to our motivation and intention. When combined with mindfulness, then it can create something that can lead to real personal transformation.

Those were the kinds of ideas behind the Stanford program, and then I sat down to develop an eight-week training and sought the help of some other colleagues to refine it. We developed the program in such a way that it does not rely entirely on quiet, formal sitting practices alone.
DB: Beyond meditation alone, or “just” being present….
TJ: We have interactive exercises. Many of them are dyadic. But also, there’s psychological education that allows people to observe, based upon their own experience, how attitudes and thoughts shape the way we experience the world, and how that affects how we behave, and that has a kind of a loop-back effect. So we come to recognize that there’s a complex dynamic relationship between our perception of the world, what we bring to the world, and how we experience the world.

And then, of course, we have one of the central elements—the contemplative practice—which includes a series of guided meditations. We also have what we call informal practices, taken from the Tibetan mind-training teachings, where the instruction is, “Whatever you may encounter, bring them right now into your practice.” It’s a beautiful line in the mind-training practice.

Throughout the eight week course, whatever specific topic we are focusing on, we advise the course participants to use that particular week to try to see if they can find, in their everyday life, moments when they can actually use their experience as an informal practice.

We were surprised when we started the compassion cultivation work that we couldn’t start with the traditional Buddhist compassion meditations, because the first step is based on an understanding that self-care and self-compassion are instinctual. But we found that many of our Western students needed additional help to learn to have self-compassion; they couldn’t start with this as step one!

Perhaps a Tibetan quote from my book illustrates this: “Envy toward the above, competitiveness toward the equal, and contempt toward the lower.” These often lie at the root of dissatisfaction and unhappiness.

DB: I’ve heard people ask, “What if you’re mindful and present, and you’re feeling really bad about yourself and your situation?” That’s why you’re bringing it to this next level, so that when you are mindful, you can be mindful with compassion for yourself and others, even if you’re suffering with painful thoughts, situations, feelings or attitudes.
TJ: Exactly. Yes. For example, I don’t have any expertise in parenting—other than having parented my own two daughters. And having lived most of my life as a monk, I probably would be the last person to claim such expertise! But on the other hand, I do believe that one of the key dimensions of compassion is a sense of connectedness, which is the active ingredient of a relationship. Increasingly, modern research on happiness is pointing out that one of the major sources of happiness for ordinary folks like us is our intimate relationships, the important relationships in our lives.

Compassion and loving-kindness are very social emotions; they are sentiments and states of mind. My hope is that therapists like yourself will look into compassion training as a resource to incorporate into your own practice, so that you can better help people who are in difficult relationships, where something has broken down in the line of communication and in their relationship dynamic. If both sides are able to somehow return to their base, to what connected them in the first place, which is where there’s a genuine recognition of each other as individuals, but also there is a shared kind of affinity and identification with each other. It’s here that compassion training, and greater awareness of feelings and thoughts about compassion really have some resources to offer.

Attachment and Non-Attachment

DB: I’m eager to understand more from your book about how to integrate that with my own work with couples, for example. You have sections on why we fear compassion, breaking through resistance to compassion, turning intention into motivation, the benefits of focused awareness, “escaping the prison of excessive self-involvement,” expanding our circle of concern, how compassion makes us healthy and strong, and the way to a more compassionate world.

So let me ask about the question of non-attachment, which is such an important concept in Buddhism. In the Western sense, for child-rearing and marital and relationship issues, we talk about secure attachment. I have some ideas about the differences between the two and how they are actually compatible, even though on the surface they sound like they’re not. Can you share any thoughts on that particular point?
TJ: I think it’s a very important question.
Quite often, people get the wrong impression about Buddhist teachings on non-attachment and equanimity…. and think that compassion and equanimity from a Buddhist perspective means that we shouldn’t be favoring our own children.
Quite often, people get the wrong impression about Buddhist teachings on non-attachment, and also about equanimity. I have consciously avoided over-emphasizing the equanimity step in this compassion training, which is the first step in the Tibetan tradition, in which you view three different people, and then you even out your emotional reaction to all of them, and then build on that.

Sometimes people take the wrong message out of this and think that compassion and equanimity from a Buddhist perspective means that we shouldn’t be favoring our own children—that we shouldn’t love them more than a stranger’s kids. I don’t think that’s the correct interpretation.

Instead the message is that you should train your mind and heart to a point where you would be able to love the stranger’s children as much as you love your own. But sometimes the message is taken in the opposite direction, as a sort of a license to disregard your responsibility as parents.

Similarly with attachment, what the Buddhist teachings are asking is actually quite subtle. It’s asking us to have the kind of passion and the dedication that normally comes with attachment, and engagement, and focus and commitment, without that stickiness that generally comes with self-referential thinking. You know, “I care for this person because this person is my spouse.” Attachment, in the Buddhist sense, has that self-referential component. But trying to convey that in the English word “attachment” is very complicated. So, that’s why in this book I try to avoid even getting into that kind of confusion.
DB: One thing I get from the book, but also get from the experience of being with many people in couples therapy who are working on forgiveness and trying to reconnect, is the idea that you can take another person’s feelings seriously… but you don’t have to take their feelings personally.
TJ: That’s right. And that would be one way to reconcile the nonattachment versus secure attachment issue. To not be attached to the part of their feelings that you would react to as if you were being blamed, but at the same time to be attached in a caring way.

The Secular Approach

DB: Your book is very secular. Could you say something about what secular means to you? Particularly for people who assume Buddhism is a religion.
TJ: The way I use the word secular is how His Holiness the Dalai Lama uses it. It’s meant to be a perspective that is inclusive of all possible perspectives, including religious ones. In a sense, it’s a perspective grounded on a certain understanding of human nature and human condition that does not presuppose a particular religious orientation. So, for example, to bring in the Buddhist idea of successive lives would be to bring a very specific cultural perspective—but we don’t need to reference such beliefs. When we talk about compassion and its role in our life, and how it’s part of our innate nature, none of this requires subscribing to, nor is it contradictory with, a belief in rebirth, or in believing in some form of theistic understanding of the evolution of human life. That is the beauty of secular language. It’s a much more, I suppose, basic language—a basic way of talking about these things. Because in the end, regardless of all the differences of culture and language and religion, when it comes to everyday human experience and the human condition, we’re all the same, you know?

We are happy when someone loves us. We feel angry when someone threatens us. We are afraid when we are confronted with a danger. And we are sad when we experience loss. At this basic level, there’s nothing to differentiate us.
We are happy when someone loves us. We feel angry when someone threatens us. We are afraid when we are confronted with a danger. And we are sad when we experience loss. At this basic level, there’s nothing to differentiate us. It’s just the reality of the human condition. There must be a perspective and way of talking about the human experience that can address our condition at that fundamental level, and that’s the kind of language I was striving for.
DB: So let me come back to a fundamental issue with resistance to compassion. At dinner recently, one friend asked, “How can you be compassionate when you’re really angry at somebody?” And I said, “Well, maybe that’s why Jinpa titled the book A Fearless Heart.
TJ: Yes.

Compassion is Not Compliance

DB: Our anger is one of the resistances to being compassionate. We have difficulty being compassionate if we’re angry. One mistake we make is to think that compassion and compliance are one and the same. “If I really understand how upset you are, I’ll have to do what you want so you won’t be upset.”

But if we think of how we deal with a child who’s really upset—“I don’t want to go to bed. You’re a jerk, Daddy, for making me go to bed!” I can be compassionate and say, “I know, it’s really hard to be young sometimes… you see the grownups are staying up later and you think you’ll be missing out. Name-calling is not OK, but I know you don’t want to go to bed now. It’s really hard, but… you’re going to bed now!”
TJ: Yeah, exactly. That’s true. I love the way you put it. Compassion and compliance are not the same things. And there is confusion about this for a lot of people. Somehow, when they think of compassion, they think of “giving in” and just letting the other person do what he or she wants. That’s not really what compassion is all about. Compassion is being in a position, or being in a state of mind that understands the other person’s situation—not from your own perspective, but from the perspective of the other person—but at the same time, being able to bear in mind what is the best thing for you to do in that situation to help that other person. That may require firmness sometimes.
DB: And we also often live in an illusion or “paradigm of blame,” as if it’s a zero-sum game. So that, if we’re not blaming the other, we’re afraid the blame will come back at us and make it our own fault. The Buddhist ideas of dependent origination have something to say about that
TJ: I also think that one of the interesting things about Western culture is that—and maybe it has something with the Judeo-Christian heritage—justice is a very powerful concept, as is accountability for something that has happened. When you have accountability needs, you want someone to be responsible. When something has happened, someone has to be responsible. And if no one is responsible, then you feel something’s quite wrong.

There’s almost a terror that everything’s going to fall apart. And this is where, even in a personal relationship, you want to blame someone, or you want to take the blame upon yourself. Because it’s very difficult for a lot of people to try to understand, “Well, actually we are both responsible. And also there were certain things which are beyond our control.” That kind of nuanced approach, for a lot of people, is like explaining it away. It’s almost like not doing justice to the actual problem, and not taking it seriously. And this is one area where I think in the West, we do need to work a bit harder.

"I've Never Met a Stranger"

DB: I appreciate so much the gift of this time together and remember what you were saying earlier: The Dalai Lama’s comment that he has never met a stranger…
TJ: Yes…
DB: I think that the readers of this interview, as I now do, will feel that we have met you. So, I deeply thank you for this opportunity.
TJ: Thank you very much, David, and I look forward to seeing you in May in San Francisco.

NOTE: For information about A Fearless Heart book tour please see sacredstream.org or find him on Facebook.

**This interview was completed just a few days before the devastating earthquake which took thousands of lives in Nepal and also caused death and injuries in Tibet and India (where Jinpa was at the time the earthquake struck). If so moved, he recommends any donations can be sent to one of the below organizations.

The American Red Cross

UNHCR (UN refugee agency)

Heather Clague on Psychiatry, Psychotherapy and Working with Society’s Most Marginalized Populations

Deb Kory: One of the reasons that I wanted to interview you for Psychotherapy.net is that you’re one of the only psychiatrists I know who both works in a hospital setting and also sees private clients as a psychotherapist. You are the medication-dispensing therapist that so many of my clients wish I were—though I’m so grateful not to have prescribing privileges. It would freak me out.

Since we’re releasing a video this month about working in hospitals and treatment centers, I thought you would be a great person to shed some light on that world. You are in private practice in Oakland, California, and you also you work at John George psychiatric hospital. What is your job there?
Heather Clague: John George is a public psychiatric hospital in San Leandro, California, and I’m an attending psychiatrist in the psychiatric emergency room (PES). It’s the 5150 [California law allowing involuntary psychiatric hold] receiving facility for Alameda County, so anyone who is put on a psychiatric hold in our county will come to us to be assessed for that 5150.

Our model is known as the “Alameda Model,” and it’s a way to reduce the length of stay for psychiatric patients in emergency rooms. In other counties that don’t have psychiatric emergency services like we do, people with psychiatric emergencies are taken to medical emergency rooms and then await an inpatient bed somewhere.
Methamphetamine accounts for a shocking amount of our services. Meth makes you really, really crazy.
And since there are so few psychiatric inpatient beds, they can wait days and days, often strapped to a gurney, ignored in a corner. Medical ER boarding times are significantly shorter in our county than those without a PES like ours, because as soon as the patient is medically cleared they can send the patient to us.

“We have just allowed ourselves not to see them”

DK: Dr. Heather Clague, thanks so much for taking the time to speak to me and our Psychotherapy.net readers today. Truth in advertising: you were my supervisor at Berkeley Primary Care, a community health clinic, where I did a practicum my third year of graduate school at the Wright Institute. These days we sometimes share clients and we also did improvisational theater together for a while. We’re both believers in the therapeutic value of improv
HC: Indeed.
DK: Let’s say someone is having a psychotic break and they go to a regular medical hospital and they get discharged to John George—what then happens to them?
HC: Then they come into our facility and they get an evaluation.
DK: Would you do that evaluation?
HC: I would, yes. We have a doctor-centered model where each patient will get seen by a physician once or twice, or sometimes even three times, and an assessment is made. The idea being that it should be a rapid assessment, that patients are not supposed to be held there more than 24 hours, at which point they will either be admitted to the hospital or released to the community.

But the reality is that our service can become overrun. There can be long delays and patients often still have to wait days and days to get an inpatient bed—although they are at least waiting in a psychiatric emergency room as opposed to a medical emergency room.
DK: Feeling hope and joy in this work really matters.
HC: It matters to me and I think it matters to the people that I work with. I also think there’s something about midlife where one has to reconcile reality with ideals.
DK: It’s humbling, isn’t it? Finding peace in our little slice of the pie, much smaller than we might have once hoped.
HC: But without becoming cynical.
DK: Is that why you only work there one day a week?
HC: For me it’s the threshold. Below a certain amount, I have a very good sense of gallows humor about it. The people I see who work there full time struggle a lot more with the despair and a very grim feeling that comes from working in a dysfunctional system.

The other way the system is broken is that there is a population of maybe 100, maybe up to 500 high users, people who are chronically calling 911. If they were given apartments, free taxi vouchers—just find out what they want and give it to them—it would cost vastly less than the impact that they have on the medical system. And I’m not just talking about the financial cost, but the burnout and wear-and-tear on the people who work in the system. I think there’s pretty good data on this.

If you need to go to an emergency room and you wait a long time, that is a direct result of this problem.

“The overwhelming burden of the radical not-enough-ness”

DK: You would have to retain some sense of hope to do this work. Both of us, really, but I’m quite comfortable in my cozy, private psychotherapy office, whereas you are much more in the trenches of human suffering, where I think hope is often in short supply.
HC: Or, less charitably, I think I’ve got strong internal boundaries. When I was working at Berkeley Primary Care, where you and I met, I had a population of patients that I saw as part of my ongoing caseload, and I ultimately left that environment because it was too dispiriting for me. I followed those patients long term and I think I felt too responsible for them, just this overwhelming burden of the radical not enough-ness. At least in emergency room settings what I’m supposed to do is so tiny, I can do that tiny piece really well and cheerfully and with compassion and humanity so that I don’t have solve everyone’s problems. If I can give them a moment of feeling seen as a human being, that works for me. I think it would be grandiose to suggest it really has a radically long-term effect on the patients that I see, but it allows me to sustain and feel hopeful and to enjoy what I do.
DK: That must be awfully dispiriting.
HC: Well, I can handle it when I work there one day a week.
DK: Wait, so you’re basically also a homeless shelter?
HC: We’re basically also a homeless shelter. And we are emblematic of societal dysfunction. If Alameda county would invest some money in opening up some shelters, the number of patients coming to us and medical emergency rooms would drop. There is no drop-in women’s shelter in Alameda County. There is one drop-in men’s shelter in Alameda County and it costs $5 a night, which is $150 a month, which most people can panhandle if they’ve got the wherewithal to panhandle $5 a night, but that’s a giant chunk of what General Assistance [Alameda county aid program for indigent adults and emancipated minors] gives you.
DK: Because our culture has become immune to it?
HC: Yeah, happy to ignore psychotic people. We have just allowed ourselves to not see them.

We have a large population of homeless people who use us a shelter. And almost all of them are also using drugs, but some of them will just come in and know that if they say the magic words—that they’re suicidal and hearing voices—they’ll get to spend the night. Some of them first present to the nearest medical emergency room, which amps up the expense because there are ambulances involved and there is a medical ER evaluation involved.
DK: So part of your role then is educating them about the dangers of meth?
HC: We do a little scaring them straight. “There are dangerous consequences to continued use, you could lose your teeth”—that type of thing.
DK: Is it?
HC: It’s like Altoid’s, strangely addictive.
DK: Otherwise you’re kind of on automatic pilot?
HC: Well the productivity expectations have gone up and up and up. When I started in 2001, if we had 20 people it was off the hook. Now, if we come in and there’s fewer than 50 we’re like, “easy day!” At the peak this weekend we had 86. I’m just waiting for us to hit 100. It just keeps escalating, and the population of Alameda County has not grown that much.
I think what we’re witnessing is the degradation of the mental health system—the ongoing defunding of the community mental health system and the social system.
I think what we’re witnessing is the degradation of the mental health system—the ongoing defunding of the community mental health system and the social system.

They just keep slashing money from community mental health, caseloads go up, there are fewer case managers and fewer psychiatrists. Services are getting cut or just not growing proportionate to the need.
DK: Wow. I had no idea there were so few shelters around.
HC: There are some other shelters around, but none that you can access on a drop-in basis. It’s an appalling lack of care that our county pays for through the nose, but those who pay for it are not necessarily in charge of fixing it, and so the problem doesn’t get fixed.
DK: Say more about that.
HC: It’s a high-energy place—there’s always a lot of work to get done. It’s very satisfying. There’s all these people that need to get seen and you make a lot of people happy because you send them home.
DK: Do you feel a special affinity with your colleagues there?
HC: Absolutely. The nurses and social workers who work there are fantastic. The people who survive in that environment develop certain social skills and have a certain philosophy of life—
DK: A sense of humor would be paramount.
HC: It’s so important. If we aren’t overwhelmed with patients one day, one of our social workers will say, “Well, we had a mental health outbreak today!”

Also, there’s no calls, there’s no voicemail.
DK: You get to leave it behind when you go home?
HC: Exactly. I have a very intense experience when I’m there and then when I’m done I can let it go.
DK: And do you?
HC: Yeah. I would say I do. Actually, I find it important not to let it go too quickly. Part of the problem of working there is it’s so fast-paced, it’s easy to do it a little mindlessly. So when I’m working in the hospital, it’s actually good for me to tell my husband some of the stories of the day so that I can actually take in that, “Wow, I just had a brush with someone who is having a much deeper, more complicated experience, and I got to bear witness to a small piece of a much bigger story.” It’s important to be able to sit back and reflect on what that story likely looked like.

It’s easy to let my impressions of people fall into stereotypical typologies, so it’s important to pull back from that and realize that there’s a very interesting three-dimensional person behind what looks like “just another meth addict.” This person had a mother, this person came from somewhere, they have a very specific story that brought them to this point.
DK: There’s obviously a deep level of dehumanization that has brought them to this point, and I think you’re saying that it’s difficult to yourself not become dehumanized in that environment.
HC: Exactly.
DK: So you have to find creative ways to stay present and to rehumanize these people.
HC: And oneself.

“People don’t have beds to sleep in”

DK: One thing that’s very noticeable about the Bay Area when you move here are the number of mentally ill people living on the streets. Do these folks make their way to you?
HC:
In our culture, you have to be pretty smelly or lying in the middle of the street or obviously bothering people with your lack of self-care before anyone will really take action.

There are people with chronic psychotic illnesses who become agitated or have such radically poor self-care that they come to attention of the people around them. In our culture, that has to be pretty radical—you have to be pretty smelly or lying in the middle of the street or obviously bothering people with your lack of self-care before anyone will really take action.
DK: Do you see a lot of addicts at the psych ER?
HC: Substance abuse is huge. My impressions aren’t necessarily accurate, but it feels like at least 20% of the people we see are having paranoid delusions because of methamphetamine use. Methamphetamine accounts for a shocking amount of our services; methamphetamine makes you really, really crazy.
DK: It sure does.
HC: And very aggressive.
DK: So what would you do with a meth addict who came in?
HC: Give some Ativan. Let them sleep. Feed them.
DK: Detox?
HC: We can refer to a detox facility that’s right near us, though there are shockingly few detox facilities available.

I think there should be a public health announcement in the Latino community because I see these higher functioning men working two jobs to support their families, who start using methamphetamines to increase their productivity, and then they get psychotic. I don’t think they know how dangerous it is.
DK: That people don’t have beds to sleep in and aren’t being properly treated for their addictions and poverty-related problems?
HC: People don’t have beds to sleep in, which is an easily solvable problem that would not cost that much money. It also would not cost that much money to give some intensive case management to this particular high-using group. Perhaps they are a fairly cynical, seemingly undeserving group, but it’s a funny kind of justice that would create a system like ours to punish them in the way we do. There’s this feeling that if we give those people taxi vouchers, then other people are going to learn that if they spend all their time in emergency rooms pretending to be suicidal, they’ll get taxi vouchers too. But I don’t think the population of people willing to spend all their time at the hospital pretending to be suicidal is that high.

“Well, it is fun”

DK: That’s a really good point. So if you’ve had to keep your workload down to one day to stay sane, why do you work in the psychiatric ER at all?
HC: Well, it is fun.
DK: How long is a typical stay for a patient there?
HC: I’m not sure what the average is, but it’s probably too long. It can range anywhere from a half hour—we get a quick evaluation and realize you don’t need to be there—to 18 to 36 hours. So, a night or two.

If we’re backed up on beds, or there is a placement issue, patients can stay for a number of days. That’s not ideal and everybody in the system tries to keep that from happening.
DK: Why?
HC: Because it’s a rough experience for the patients. It’s a hard place to have to hang out, especially if you’re in psychiatric distress. We have nurses and doctors rotating every shift. We are able to make some limited interventions—start medications, family meetings, have patients participate in some group therapy, but it’s primarily a facility designed to collect observations, make a decision, and move on. It’s clearly a giant step above waiting for days in a medical emergency room, but it is not equal to a good inpatient experience.
DK: Say more about the types of people you see.
HC: The 5150 is applied for danger to self—someone who is acutely suicidal; danger to others—so someone may be homicidal; and grave disability—someone who is unable to provide food, clothing, and shelter for themselves. We see people with chronic psychotic illnesses having a decompensation, people with bipolar disorder who have become manic, people who have a depressive illness and have become acutely suicidal. We’ll see people who aren’t necessarily mentally ill but they just had a breakup and have became suicidal and texted someone they were going to kill themselves.
DK: Are you only involved in the initial assessment, or are you involved in ongoing care?
HC: My general schedule is to work one day a week, so normally I would just do a one-time assessment and would see them over the course of the day if they have needs during that day. Sometimes I’ll work two days in a row and if a patient is still there then I see them again. I can do small interventions, but we’re not an inpatient service.

Bringing Grit to the Comfortable Place

DK: Without becoming cynical, right. Do you feel like your ER psychiatrist role is a separate identity from your role as a psychotherapist in your private practice Oakland?
HC: Yeah, I do.
DK: In a never-the-twain-shall-meet kind of way?
HC: Well, not entirely. I’m me. I’m the same person. But, my role is quite different. They are two ends of a spectrum: Long-term/short-term, higher-functioning/lower-functioning. But obviously the two inform each other. I think it’s good to bring some grit into the comfortable space and compassion into the gritty space. And I definitely feel like using my empathic skills in the emergency room is effective and incredibly rewarding.
DK: Speaking of which, psychiatrists are not often thought of as empathic. It’s all anecdotal, but I’ve not had many people come into my office reporting positive experiences with psychiatrists. Why do you think that is? And why don’t more psychiatrists do therapy?
HC: Well, it’s not as lucrative. If you see three medication patients per hour, you can make a lot more money than seeing one therapy patient per hour.
DK: So it’s purely financial?
HC: Well, also, in order to do learn to do therapy well, you have to feel safe and have time to empathize and mentalize, and I don’t think the medical model facilitates mentalizing.
DK: Because doctors are trying to squeeze in as many patients as possible?
HC: You’re not trying to form a model of the patient’s inner experience, you’re trying to make a diagnostic categorization and then select a medication.
If I can give them a moment of feeling seen as a human being, that works for me.
I think skillful pharmacologists obviously do need to understand the target symptoms, what the side effects are, what a particular person’s concerns about taking medication are. Obviously having empathic skills helps with prescribing medication, but I think it’s treated as icing on the cake. I think that’s true in most medical settings.
DK: When you went through UCSF Medical School, were you given any proper therapy training?
HC: UCSF did a reasonable job of training people how to communicate effectively with patients. I also went to UCSF for residency and that program was very strong in training. But I think that’s not typical for psychiatric residencies. They tend to be more biologically oriented, and I personally feel a bit skeptical about the biological approach of psychiatry. There are obviously illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and severe depression that look like medical illnesses. They look very biological. But the human condition does not want to easily fit itself into DSM V diagnostic categories, and there’s a lot of politics behind why we shoehorn them in there.
DK: Our last interview was with Gary Greenberg, who recently wrote The Book of Woe: The DSM and the Unmaking of Psychiatry, and in it he talks a lot about how inappropriate the medical model is for maladies of the mind. How do you use the DSM? How do you view diagnosis?
HC: I hold it lightly. I have to put some code down there, and I choose from a handful of codes.
DK: Do you have a favorite?
HC: Well at the hospital, we’re allowed to use more of the bullshitty codes, the “NOS” codes. Of course, we can’t put substance abuse as a primary diagnosis because we don’t get paid.
DK: Why not?
HC: I don’t know, actually. The stigmatization of substance abuse? Insurance companies don’t want to pay for addicts who end up in the ER? Perhaps it’s viewed as an issue of volition rather than biology?
DK: Though there’s plenty of evidence for a genetic predisposition toward addiction.
HC: Well, the reason we call it volition is that we don’t have great treatments for it, so it’s blamed on the patient.

But the DSM doesn’t turn me on. I do what I have to do. Probably the biggest diagnostic question that I face is, “is this unipolar depression or bipolar depression?” I don’t want to give a bipolar patient an antidepressant and cause a manic episode, so that is an important practical diagnostic question.

Or “does this person have OCD as opposed to other forms of anxiety?” because that has treatment implications. With OCD, we’ll want to use higher doses of SSRIs and encourage therapies such as exposure and response prevention.

There is No Truth

DK: Well, if I were struggling with the Bipolar 1 or Bipolar 2 question, I’d just send them over to you to figure out.
HC: And I would tell you that there is no truth.
DK: And that would be annoying.
HC: Do you want to hear my rant about bipolar disorder?
DK: Yes, please.
HC: Bipolar got really trendy right around the time that Lamotrigine was being marketed.
DK: Which is Lamictal.
HC: Right. And the evidence for its efficacy is actually pretty weak.
Bipolar got really trendy right around the time that Lamotrigine was being marketed.
People who responded to Lamotrigine who went off of it were more likely to have a depressive relapse than people who stayed on it, but there is no control trial of people having acute depressive episodes on Lamotrigine doing better than people who took placebo. And there are all sorts of methodological issues around discontinuation studies. Even the data on lithium and Depakote is actually quite thin. And if you really want to get paranoid about it, the reproducibility of psychiatric trials is also quite weak.
DK: Because it’s too hard to control for variables? Or is it just that the nature of the mind is still so mysterious? It’s not like measuring the size of a tumor or drawing blood to see if a disease is still present.
HC: Well, we take a cluster of symptoms and we describe them and we put a label on them. Some people are probably very obsessively good at asking really detailed questions—“How many days did that last?” But I can tell you in practice I don’t have the time or the interest to go through it with that fine grain a comb. I screen for things that sound like classical bipolar symptoms, but what is ultra-rapid cycling bipolar disorder and how does it differ from the psychiatric effects of trauma? I mean, does pediatric bipolar actually exist? Kids who are beaten and raped and emotionally abused are going to have rage outbursts and sleep problems.

I saw this young man last week who was put in foster care at age 4, so who knows what kind of horror show was happening in his life before age 4. He’s been in and out of foster care. He’s been in juvenile justice since age 12, and he’s been shooting methamphetamine, and he’s telling me he has bipolar disorder. You grow up that way you’re going to be traumatized. Maybe there are people who have resiliency factors who don’t become mentally ill, but he didn’t look like he had bipolar disorder to me. He looked like someone very, very traumatized, but I’m going to giving him Zyprexa?! That just did not feel like the right solution.

The next guy who comes in, I ask, “Have you ever made a suicide attempt?”

“Oh, yeah, a bunch of times.”

“Oh, what have you done?”

“Well, I swallowed glass and I swallowed razor blades. I drank bleach.”

“When was the last time?”

“Five or six months ago.”

He’s got scars all up and down his arm and all up and down his neck. This patient did not want to talk to me about what happened to him when he was young, but in my mind, his diagnosis is trauma until proven otherwise. But this guy is not carrying a trauma diagnosis, even as a rule-out. He’s only carrying a psychotic disorder diagnosis. That just feels very wrong to me.

I’m partly on a kick because I saw Bessel van der Kolk at a conference, and what he says makes so much sense to me. He put together a diagnosis called “developmental trauma disorder,” which is obviously a trauma-based diagnosis, and one of the major cons of including developmental trauma disorder into the DSM is that it would wipe out a bunch of other diagnoses. It wipes out a lot of ADHD. It wipes out oppositional defiant disorder, borderline personality disorder, a lot of bipolar disorder.
DK: So it wipes out a lot of money?
HC: It wipes out a lot of things that people want to treat with medication. There’s compelling epigenetic research about the way that experience and trauma gets incorporated into your biology and passed on to your offspring, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the primary solution should be to take a pill.

I’m not anti-medication. I think there’s definitely a role for pills, but the fact that psychiatry has put all of its eggs in that basket is appalling to me, especially when there’s a lot of exciting research about non-pharmacological treatments, such as EMDR, neurofeedback, hypnosis, and paradoxical motivational techiques.

How is it that we help our patients? How do we train ourselves as therapists to be highly effective on a kind of session-by-session basis? What did I do in session today that was actually effective? I think we should be collecting a lot more data, both as a profession and also individually. Our impressions are so misleading.
DK: Scott Miller has done a lot of research on what works in psychotherapy and what doesn’t. I think he reported that something like 75% of therapists think they’re better than average, which is, of course, statistically impossible.
HC: That is healthy narcissism. I would want to know what is up with the 25% that thinks they’re below average. I wouldn’t want to see them. I think it’s okay to think you’re somewhat more effective than you are.

Does pediatric bipolar actually exist? Kids who are beaten and raped and emotionally abused are going to have rage outbursts and sleep problems.
But we also need to be willing to take that confidence in ourselves to the next level, so that we can look at ourselves critically and separate out what we do that is effective from what isn’t. I was really intrigued when van der Kolk talked about doing EMDR with a patient who was very hostile toward him. He was asking the patient to be with this traumatic memory and he says, “So tell me what’s going on.” And the patient says, “It’s none of your fucking business.” And van der Kolk says, “OK, go with that,” and he completes the session and the guy tells him nothing about what he was thinking about, but at the end says, “Thank you, that was very helpful.”

So it’s not always clear how the patient liking or attaching to us predicts the kinds of changes they want or that we think they should want. I’m not saying we should encourage our patients to hate us, but I think a lot of us think we’re more effective than we are.
DK: We just recently interviewed Bessel van der Kolk as well as Francine Shapiro, the originator of EMDR, so you are in good company here. They are both big researchers and into collecting data on the efficacy of their work. Do you collect data from your clients?
HC: I’ve started to. I’m training in the David Burns TEAM model of cognitive therapy, and it asks the patient to complete a symptom rating scare before and after every session. So after every session they fill out a feedback form and they evaluate you based on how well you empathized with them, how well they felt that they were able to talk about what was important to them, whether they learned new skills and whether they’re going to do their homework, and then it lets them give a little narrative write up.

It’s very, very humbling. And it has transformed my therapy practice. You have a session you thought was great and then learn that patient didn’t think so! You’re able to come back to the person and say, “You know, it sounds like I wasn’t really getting this. Can you fill me in? How was I off track?” It’s an incredibly therapeutic moment. We’re inviting patients to criticize us and then taking that non-defensively. How many people have that in their lives where they get to actually say to someone, “that kind of sucked,” and to have that received that lovingly and non-defensively?
DK: And with curiosity.
HC: It’s incredibly hard to do. And we’re only human. But I think that having the right kind of training can make it possible.
There is a lot of narcissistic support built into our field for embracing failure.
Allowing ourselves as therapists to really take pride in our failures is what allows us to be non-defensive and to receive critical feedback from patients in an open-hearted way. For example, it turns out my grandparents were right, I really do talk too fast. I’ve heard that on enough feedback forms. That’s humbling, but at least I know I have that tendency, and when it comes up I can validate the patient’s experience. And actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t gotten that feedback as much lately, so maybe I’m actually doing better at slowing down!

To Prescribe or Not to Prescribe?

DK: Do you generally try to do psychotherapy first for a while before prescribing?
HC: So much depends on what the patient comes in expecting and wanting. It’s really interesting, because some people are very clear: “I don’t have the time and energy for CBT. I want a relatively straightforward, easy solution to my chronic anxiety, and I’m willing to take the risks that come from medication. And I only have to see you every six months if I’m stable.” And that works for me. CBT is hard work. Actually, most psychotherapy is hard work and that doesn’t fit for everybody.

And then other people feel like, “I don’t want to take a pill. I don’t want to take medication. I don’t want to be labeled and stigmatized and reduced to that. I want to explore and understand.” It’s a tremendous privilege as a clinician to be able to work with people in such a broad way. The danger is that I’m a little jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. I’m not the most hotshot psychopharmacologist. I’m not up to date on all the latest meds. But I’m really good at SSRIs.
DK: Speaking of SSRIs, given that they work slightly better than placebo, do you tend to psychoeducate people about that, about all the risk, the fact that we don’t even really know why they work?
HC: No. I don’t. Because I want to maximize the placebo response. I give them every testimonial I can. Because they’re not just getting the pill, they’re getting me prescribing the pill. They’re getting the experience of having a relationship with me and so to whatever extent taking that pill is internalizing me, I want that to be a positive experience.

Now, I’m not going to shine them on and say that SSRIs always work or are completely benign, but as drugs go—certainly compared to the mood stabilizers or heavens, antipsychotic medications—I think they’re relatively benign. They’re not so benign for people who might be bipolar, since they can bring on severe agitation or even manic episodes, so I have to be careful there, but otherwise they are relatively benign.
DK: If somebody is clearly suffering with chronic depression, they are in therapy, and they’re open to getting pharmacological help, how many SSRIs are you willing to try on a person before you give up?
HC: The data shows that the chance of it working goes down with every trial. But, again, they’re not getting a pill, they’re getting the experience of paying a fair amount of money to come sit in my nice office, to sit across from me, and have me listen to their story, and then to have a conversation with me about what it means to take medication. And then to have customized dosing.
DK: So it may be that they’re getting the therapeutic effect of seeing you rather than from the pill.
HC: Right. I had a client some time ago with a lot of trauma who had bad experiences with antidepressants, and we shifted him to Prozac and it was going well and I remember him saying to me in session that he was feeling much better, but also sometimes feeling really sad and that it was scary for him.
The expectations of psychiatrists are so low….I get a lot of credit for having kind of average social skills.
I was able to tell him that the fact that the sadness came up right when he was feeling better made me think that maybe his body was realizing it was safe to feel his feelings. I pointed out that he’d had a lot of trauma in his life and lives in a high-pressure culture with a high-pressure career as a high functioning person and that it’s easy to become phobic about feeling sad. And I said, “What do you think about the idea of just allowing the sadness?” And he was so visibly relieved by that.

I think there’s something very powerful about having your prescriber license your sadness instead of pathologizing it. Of course your therapist can do the same thing, but some of what I do is help support therapists whose clients I share. They want to know that they’ve done everything they can in the therapy setting and I can validate that and help them feel less alone in their treatments.
DK: It makes everybody feel more confident, including the clients who feel like, “I have a team working with me.”
HC: Which is why the current model of overburdened, non-psychologically-oriented psychiatrists handing out pills and not calling back therapists probably isn’t the most effective. The expectations of psychiatrists are so low.
DK: No kidding.
HC: I can walk on water because I return phone calls. I get a lot of credit for having kind of average social skills. Very privileged place for me to be in. I will not complain.
DK: Because you’re not a complete weirdo.
HC: There are a lot of very weird therapists out there, too, though.
DK: We are a strange subculture. Or maybe everyone is strange but the standards are higher for us because we’re supposed to be helping people with problems in living?
HC: Well, when you’re vulnerable and need help, you’re really sensitive to the weirdness.
DK: Well, on that note, I want to thank your only modestly weird self for participating in this interview.
HC: It’s been a pleasure.

Gary Greenberg on the DSM and Its Woes

The Book of Constructs

Deb Kory: Gary Greenberg, you are a psychotherapist and a writer, author of Manufacturing Depression: The Secret History of a Modern Disease and, most recently, The Book of Woe: The DSM and the Unmaking of Psychiatry, from which we’re featuring an excerpt to go along with this interview. You’ve written for Mother Jones, Harper's, Rolling Stone, The New Yorker, The Nation, and McSweeney's to name a few. In these books you've taken on the mental health industry, psychiatry, pharmaceutical companies, and the culture they have created. Let's start with your most recent book, The Book of Woe. Why did you decide take on the DSM?
Gary Greenberg: Well, I actually didn't decide. I was happily ignoring the whole thing and knew what any person scanning The New York Times would have known until I got a phone call from Wired magazine asking me if there was something about the DSM that might be worth their while. At the time I was sort of aware that there was this rebellion at the top within the American Psychiatric Association—that the guys who had done the DSM-III and the DSM-IV were really unhappy about the DSM 5—and so I started looking into it and realized that their complaints were really about the nature of psychiatric diagnosis. That interested me and I told the magazine I would write the article. I've been thinking and living in this whole set of questions for many years, and it didn't seem all that remarkable to me, but the reaction I got from people who I thought would have also seen it as old hat was pretty strong, so the decision that I made wasn't to go out after the story, but having gone after the story I decided to feed the curiosity of the people who responded to it. In particular because everybody grouches about the DSM.
DK: It’s kind of a monstrosity. Unwieldy on so many levels.
GG: Nobody likes the DSM, including, for the most part, the psychiatrists who author it—but also therapists, clinicians, researchers and academics too.
Nobody likes the DSM, including the psychiatrists who author it.
And when you look into what people object to, a lot of their objections are—I don't want to sound haughty—but they're uninformed. There's an understandable, and for the most part accurate, instinctual objection to the whole idea of it. So I thought it would be interesting to do with the DSM something like what I did with Manufacturing Depression, which was to explore it as an instance of a problematic mental health culture.
DK: It seems like sort of the same book written from a different angle, where you're deconstructing the way that we think about mental health and disease, and taking on two of its principle constructs: depression and diagnosis. One of the things I've heard you say is that the DSM is a book of constructs, not of real entities. Can you explain what you mean by that?
GG: Whether it’s correct or not, in medicine real entities are those that have a biological basis, where you can find the causes and the boundaries of a disease through biochemical means, whether that's by culturing tissue, or looking under a microscope, or doing a blood test, or whatever it is you do. The problem with mental illness, or with psychological suffering in general, is that it's very difficult to come up with those biochemical assays. In fact, I shouldn't say, “very difficult,” but rather, “at this point, impossible.”
DK: Because?
GG: Mostly because the brain is so seemingly infinitely complex and the tools that we have for understanding it are comparatively crude. And if you pay attention to neuroscience, the field changes dramatically all the time. It's a moving target.

So you don't really have the basis for understanding mental illness in terms of real entities in that respect. On the other hand, for many different reasons, there is a strong need to have those entities. From the political and ideological having to do with the authority of medicine, right to the most practical having to do with how society decides to ration its health care resources, and everything in between. The way that psychiatry has bridged that gap is by using the rhetoric of science to create a DSM without ever being able to say that those scientific sounding categories are truly scientific. In other words, you can create the construct and then build all sorts of science around it.
DK: From inside it makes perfect sense.
GG: Right. But so does schizophrenia. And this is a problem with all ideologies. If you accept their basic premise, then everything else makes sense. In scientific methodology this is known as the validity problem. None of the categories in the DSM are valid, and that becomes a problem particularly because once you use that rhetoric it is inevitable, inescapable, that the categories will become reified, meaning that people will take them as real, and they'll use them as real, and they will become the basis for all sorts of political, economic, and individual decisions based on their reality.

One of the things that you find when you talk to the people who make the DSM is they're all really smart—well most of them are really smart people—and they're quite capable of understanding and appreciating the problem that we're talking about. But they have trouble taking account of the fact that the reification is a problem for everyone, not just for the professionals.
DK: Say more about that.
GG: In other words, they're happy to say to you, “Yeah, I understand that. We all know these are just constructs,” as if their knowing it is enough. But what that really means is that they don't want everybody else to know.
DK: Because it confers power on them?
GG: Right. It's the problem of the noble lie. Actually, I think that the best example isn't really the noble lie as Plato saw it, because that's a more complex topic. It’s more like what the Grand Inquisitor presents to Ivan Karamazov [from Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamozov], which is that, “We in the Grand Inquisitors coterie, we know this stuff and nobody else needs to know, and in fact we're using our knowledge to help people.” That's exactly the pitch that the Grand Inquisitor uses to justify what he's doing to Ivan Karamazov.
DK: That power dynamic does a lot of harm.
GG: Of course. Power unquestioned is always a problem, and the problem is always damaging to the people that don't have it.
DK: If I were to draw your work together thematically, it seems to be challenging power in its various manifestations. You’re also a journalist and have obviously written widely on a variety of topics, but because you're a psychotherapist, you’ve taken on its institutions of power.
GG:
Power unquestioned is always a problem, and the problem is always damaging to the people who don't have it.
I think that's an interesting point. I think that's true. I don't think any of that is particularly conscious. I imagine that’s why I chose these professions—they both try to unearth power relations in one way or another, and claim, anyway, that that's the truth that they're uncovering.
DK: But they reify that power at the same time that they are claiming to unearth it.
GG: In what way?
DK: I'm thinking more of psychologists and psychotherapists than journalists, though the claim could be made for them too. There is a power dynamic in the therapy relationship that I think we are often unwilling to recognize. They come to us, they pay us, they have all kinds of transference reactions to us that we help them “work through” while we choose to reveal those aspects of our internal experience we think might be helpful to them. Having gone through the medical system I think psychiatrists are much more clear about their power in relationship to “patients,” whereas many psychotherapists are not. You take on psychiatry a fair amount but haven’t necessarily gone after psychotherapists.
GG: Well, the only direct approach I make to that question is my critique of cognitive-behavioral therapy.
DK: Talk about that.
GG: Do I have to?

The Problem of Piety

DK: Well, you don’t have to but I think it might be interesting to our audience.
GG: Cognitive-behavioral therapy is an ideology of optimism that is used by therapists to induct people into a more genial understanding of their lives and their circumstances. It's in some ways the diabolical twin brother of Freudian psychoanalysis, in that it trades on optimism rather than pessimism. CBT believes in the perfectibility of the human as opposed to the depravity of the human. It posits, without saying so, a benevolent universe, which is the opposite of what Freud thought.
DK: Is it their certainty that you have a problem with? You seem to wrestle with the notion of certainty a fair amount in your writing.
GG: Well, piety is a problem. Ask the people at Charlie Hebdo. If power is the general preoccupation of my books, piousness is the specific preoccupation. Unquestioned belief. For all of his problems at the granular level, at the macro level Freud was the master of ambivalence and uncertainty, and I think that there is a connection to be drawn between understanding life as infinitely uncertain—at least mental life—and the tragic sensibility.
I think that cognitive-behavioral therapy tries to overlook, or ignore, or erase the tragic dimension of human life.
I think that cognitive-behavioral therapy tries to overlook, or ignore, or erase the tragic dimension of human life. So, to get back to your original question, why do I go easy on psychotherapy? Well, this is one way that I don’t go easy on it and, as you and I both know, CBT is the dominant theme of psychotherapy in this country right now.
DK: Along with “evidence-based” therapies.
GG: It links in with the evidence based therapy thing, which bleeds over into my second criticism of psychotherapy, which is that we're way too tied in to medicine. Regardless of what we individually, or even as institutions, believe about psychiatric drugs, that's not the issue. The issue is how do we get paid and how do we get our status and authority in society? When I pick up the phone and I call somebody and then say, “Hey, this is Dr. Greenberg,” I get a different response than I would if I called up and said, “Hey, this is Gary Greenberg.” I'm not averse to using that power, but I'm implicated in a whole web that I shouldn't be. That critique shows up in both of my books, where I repeatedly question the whole business of psychotherapy.
DK: These days almost everyone talks about therapy as a business.
GG: Well, you've got to make a living.
DK: True enough. But it’s disheartening to me, nonetheless.
GG: We're all doing it. You make your accommodation with it however you can. The problem, when it comes to the DSM and to the medical-model aspect of our practice is that it is so at odds with what we purport to do. If you start your therapy by giving a person a diagnosis that you don't believe in, there's no way that you can't see that as a contradiction of the terms of psychotherapy, because it's dishonest.

The Rhetoric of Disease

DK: That’s interesting. I recently had someone come in claiming to be bipolar, and I pulled out my DSM for the first time in quite awhile because, in my mind, bipolar is not something to dawdle around. It has a high suicide rate, and is one of those diagnoses we are taught is genetic and kind of untreatable without medication. How do you deal with something like schizophrenia or bipolar or autism where there's clearly a mental disorder of some sort happening, there’s a pretty compelling case for genetic transmission, etc. Is there some utility in using the DSM for something like bipolar disorder?
GG: Well, I don't know about the DSM, but I do know about the larger rhetoric of mental illness. The DSM is just the most obvious example. I believe that as symptoms get more severe, and as impairments get more severe, the justification for using the rhetoric becomes greater, because it is a rhetoric that is quite effective. For instance, the rhetoric would say, “Schizophrenia is a biological brain-based illness that is just the luck of the draw. Maybe you had some stressors, but you definitely had this serious predisposition and your brain's all fucked up and now you're going to have to manage this all your life. And the best way to manage it is with Geodon.” Or you can go farther with that. You can say to somebody, “You have to take responsibility for you who you are, just like I do. And who you are happens to be somebody with this vulnerability, and that means keeping yourself in situations that aren't likely to kindle your psychosis. It means recognizing the prodromal nature of it. It means taking medications when it seems to be necessary to keep you and the people around you safe.”

That whole rhetoric is very helpful. I believe at some point it makes sense. And I even would go farther and say that there are some psychiatric illnesses, mood disorders, certainly the autism spectrum, that really are the luck of the draw, in the same sense that type 1 juvenile diabetes is. So the best we're going to do is help you cope. And I think that the rhetoric is useful there.

The problem is that that's the model for everybody, and we have no way of determining who it is that we should consider that way and who we shouldn't. It's like not knowing the difference between who's got type 1 diabetes and who should just eat less sugar, and just treating them all the same way. That's a problem. And it's not a problem that's been intentionally created by psychiatrists. I'm not a Scientologist. I don't believe that that's what's happened here. But I do think that because of its blindness to its power—and I do hold psychiatry more responsible than the rest of us because you and I are just living off of their crumbs when it comes to this stuff—psychiatrists have failed to make those distinctions, have failed to start with the assumption that only a small minority of people who are suffering with mental illness, even severe mental illness, have that classic disease structure. Now it’s reasonable to say, “Let’s err on the side of caution.” We’re talking about serious stuff here, and it's a useful model.
DK: So you sometimes use it with your clients?
GG: I just had a patient go into the hospital because she was sure that laser beams were doing something to her bones. She was a howling, psychotic mess. She's in the hospital and I'm really hoping that one of the psychiatric drugs that they throw at her will work, because her brain's on fire. It’s a useful way to look at it in this instance.
DK: So you pull it out of your toolbox when you need it.
GG: Yes, but do we know when we should and when we shouldn't? Absolutely not. But to get back to your patient who came in with the bipolar diagnosis, you took out the DSM and then what? You never finished the story. Did you then get them to tell their history of manic episodes?
DK: I did. We went through all of the assessment and then I said, “Okay, according to this book”—I mean I literally said this—“you qualify, but I need to qualify that this book is also a load of B.S.”
GG: Yes! Now was this bipolar 1 or bipolar 2?
DK: It's still not clear.
GG: So my guess is, if somebody shows up in your office and they're basically okay, and they tell you they just got diagnosed with bipolar and you're thinking, “What?!” chances are that person is going to qualify for the bipolar 2 diagnosis.
DK: Right, with the less intense mania.
GG: It only requires hypo-manic episodes. And so what you have there is the diagnostic creep that I just outlined.
All of a sudden there's all these people that—sure, they’re not happy, but they are not psychotic—telling me that they're bipolar and they're on Depakote and they're on Abilify. And I'm thinking, “What in the world is going on out there?”
That diagnosis just arrived in 1994. I don't know how long you've been in practice, but I've been in practice for a long time and I remember when these people started showing up in my office with their diagnoses and their anti-psychotics and their stabilizing drugs. All of a sudden there's all these people that—sure, they’re not happy, but they are not psychotic—telling me that they're bipolar and they're on Depakote and they're on Abilify. And I'm thinking, “What in the world is going on out there?” I think there's cases where that's a totally useful and justified approach, and I think there's cases where it isn't, and that's where all the trouble lies.

The Serotonin Myth

DK: In your book, Manufacturing Depression, you say that serotonin came along and seemed to make people happier and so the drug companies had to find an illness that would make people need it, right?
GG: It's not quite that conspiratorial. In the case of depression and antidepressants and neurotransmitters, it’s like strands of a braid that came together advantageously for some patients, and many doctors, and most of all for the pharmaceutical industry, which was brilliant, clever, and lucky.

I guess that's a little cynical. I have to be fair, the cynicism in the pharmaceutical industry didn't really start until the mid-1990s, by which time scientists knew that this whole serotonin deficiency theory of depression was bullshit. They knew that it was wrong, and then they did tone down the rhetoric to some extent in their advertising. The consumer advertising started right around the same time that scientifically the serotonin myth fell apart, the late 90s, but you wouldn't know that to look at the ads. That, to me, was their most egregious move.
DK: They didn't correct for it, they just took advantage of it.
GG: Exactly. They knew that if you could sell it as that kind of disease, it was so overdetermined that it would succeed and they could not resist it. You would have to be some kind of Boddhisattva of advertising to resist that temptation.
DK: A lot of people, myself included, only recently came across this information that it's really not about serotonin deficiency. We literally have no idea why they work, and for whom they work.
GG: Right. Now you say you just came across that. You're an intelligent, well-educated person with a PhD, right?
DK: Yes, but I’ve also benefited from antidepressants, so I had a little bit of denial in the game around it. I’m one of those people with a seeming genetic predisposition for depression for whom SSRI’s just helped, with no bad side effects. I thought I understood why they were helping, but it turns out no one knows yet what they do.
GG: There's two ways to look at that question of why. One of them is, do we know neurochemically what's going on and what, if any, deleterious consequences there are? And the answer to that question is no.
DK: Well, we know a little bit.
GG: We know that you're increasing the activity at certain receptor sites, including some of the serotonin receptor sites, although these drugs aren't as precise as they are sold as. And we know that serotonin appears to be associated with increase in neurogenesis. And we know that at really high doses you can see the axonal growth that appears to be the direct result of increased serotonin activity. So there's all these things that we know, but why that changes a person's mood…
DK: There's no causal correlation.
GG: Right. In order to know that you would have to have an account of how the brain produces consciousness, and good luck with that, because that's just not going to happen. So what you're left with is to say, “Okay, well this drug makes me feel better.”
The cynicism in the pharmaceutical industry didn't really start until the mid-1990s, by which time scientists knew that this whole serotonin deficiency theory of depression was bullshit.
And I don't mean that necessarily in the same way that smoking a joint or whatever makes you feel better. It just makes you feel better, and it works, and it doesn't hurt my life in any other way, and I'm going to take it. To me, anyway, the only problem I have with that approach is the same as with any drug. It's like, “Okay, well, am I hurting myself in any way?” It's the same question I have about vaporizing nicotine. Obviously, the reason that that's become controversial isn't because we know that it's bad for you.
DK: It's because we don't know that it isn't bad.
GG: No, I think it's because we are an anti-drug society, and it just makes it really clear what's going on in smoking cigarettes. People don't smoke cigarettes to get cancer. They smoke cigarettes to get high, and the vaporizer just eliminates the middleman and delivers to people the drug that they want. And in our society, unless you're on antidepressants, or happen to be addicted to caffeine or alcohol, you can't just openly say, “I'm going to do this in order to change my consciousness.”

So I think that the controversy arises because of that, and then it is also true that we don't really know the long-term effects of using nicotine—although we know enough to know that it is not carcinogenic.
DK: And we don't know the long-term effects of taking an antidepressant.
GG: Right.
DK: So how do you deal with people who come in and seem to suffer from depression—have a family history of it and display severe depressive symptoms—who then respond really well to antidepressants?
GG: The way you do with anything that you're wondering about. You just take it as it is. You support it. “Okay. So, tell me about it.” Of course, people aren't stupid, and they tend to expect, particularly from me because of my relatively high profile, that I will disapprove. So I have to spend a little time reminding them that I really don't disapprove. If they actually read what I wrote, as opposed to listening to what people say about it, they would know that. You have to start by letting them know that, for the most part anyway, it's cool with me if this is what you decide to do. But one of the hallmarks of being mature and self-possessed is recognizing that you can't have it both ways. If you want to be on drugs, you've got be on drugs, and live with whatever that means to you and with whatever the implications are. And among the things that it means to be on antidepressants, particularly long-term, is struggling with the question of what's you and what's the drug. People have these severe doubts about their functioning and about their success. There's a whole version of the imposter syndrome that goes along with being on long term antidepressants.

Does Depression Exist?

DK: Do you think depression exists? Is it real?
GG: What does that mean?
DK: Is it an actual illness? You say that it is manufactured.
GG: No, I’m saying that I’m sure there are situations, brains, people who certainly qualify. Let's say that the ability to feel depression as it's described in the DSM is heterogeneous—in other words, there are many ways to get there, both existentially and biochemically. I'm sure that's true. And let's say that some subgroup of people who qualify for the diagnosis—which is insanely broad—
DK: It covers a large swath of American culture.
GG: —nine symptoms, five of which qualify you; there's 125 different combinations to be depressed, just for starters. But let’s say some subgroup of the people that qualify are suffering from some identifiable biological fuck up, some hiccup somewhere. Or maybe more than one. And it wouldn't matter what their circumstances were, once the depression was kindled, they're screwed. Again, I don't know who they are. Nobody knows who those people are. In the meantime, the presumption is that everybody is. And that's the problem.
DK: There's not a model for the remaining majority.
GG: Yes. And I also think that the question of, “Is it an illness? Is it real?” is, in some respects, a red herring. Because why are you asking the question? What is the importance of that question?
DK: Hmmm. That’s a good question.
GG: Why does it matter to know that it is or it isn't?
DK: I guess I’m interested in how much of our internal lives are constructed by social structures and beliefs. I listened to an amazing podcast called "Invisibilia" recently, an episode entitled “How to Become Batman” where a blind guy, blind since birth, learned to “see” by using echolocation, a clicking sound with his mouth, and because his mom let him run wild and didn’t treat him like he was blind. Let him ride bikes, climb trees, fall and get hurt, all of that. Apparently his visual cortex has actually created something like sight for him. It made me think about how we are both blinded and liberated by our beliefs. So if we had an entirely different model and way of seeing depression, it could transform the world.
GG: So the reason that you're asking the question is because you see certain shortcomings, at least potential shortcomings, to understanding it as an illness.
DK: Oh, for sure, at the very least.
GG: The advantage of seeing it as an illness is that certain social resources become available to you if you see it that way. Drugs, medical care, sympathy, understanding, none of which is to be sneezed at.
It's notable that one of the major ways of getting social resources in our society is to be sick.
It's notable that one of the major ways of getting social resources in our society is to be sick.

But there are also disadvantages, as you just pointed out. If you see yourself as sick then you act sick, and if you're sick you're less empowered, maybe you're less active, maybe you take less responsibility for yourself. You cited an extraordinary example, but you're certainly not going to do that if what you decided to do is to live the life of a blind person. So, yes, there's something liberatory about it which is much more likely to be achieved if we understand illness as a contingence category as opposed to an absolute category. As something human-made as opposed to something scientific and medical.
DK: I’ve written extensively about psychologists’ complicity in torture at Guantanamo and other CIA black sites, and in researching what led to it, I found that the profession of psychology emerged out of war, has been funded in large part by the military in terms of training programs and research grants, and is thus inexorably linked to the American war machine. I haven’t had a chance to delve into the role that scientism plays in all of this—and I understand scientism to be viewing science as a religion, basically—but one of my speculations was that this desire for the profession to be perceived as a hard science, to be seen essentially as a “man among men,” was a big part of the problem. You wrote some about this in your article in Harper's, where you take on positive psychology guru Martin Seligman, whose own research is deeply embedded with the military and who coached the very psychologists who created the program at Guantanamo in his theory of learned helplessness. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about the role of scientism in the militarization of psychology or if you see any connections between what you're critiquing in your work and what's happened with the psychology profession becoming kind of an arm of the military.
GG: Well, I think to start with, there's lots of psychologists like yourself who are appalled at that outcome, so it's pretty clear that it's not a necessary outcome. There are even psychologists who don't buy Marty Seligman's self-serving excuses for his own implication in these things. That conference that I wrote about in Harper’s took place in 2009 and the issue was still alive at the time, and Seligman had some very greasy responses to those questions.
DK: Yes, he claimed to have had no clue what they were intending, which wasn't very credible given where and when he delivered his lectures and the meetings he was involved with.
GG: But there are people who don't buy it and who are critical when these discoveries are made. But, having said that, I think your point is well taken. There is a kind of wish among all the medical health disciplines to be on the inside rather than on the outside. And whether you're on the inside by virtue of having a professional license or by virtue of having the authority to declare people mentally ill, or to get services for kids through special education, or to help the military figure out how to make soldiers resilient, I think this desire to be considered an insider can be problematic. And that in itself is complicated because sometimes it's simply wanting to make a living, or to make a decent living. Obviously, if we didn't have our professional licenses then we probably wouldn't make as much money as we do. If we didn't have our ability to bill insurance companies or, in my case, help people get reimbursed, then we would make less money. So some of it is just about that, but a lot of it is about wanting to be in the mainstream, because, like I said earlier, you can't have it both ways. If you're not in the mainstream, there are some severe prices to be paid.

A Foot in Each World

DK: Do you feel like an outsider in this profession?
GG: I have one foot in each world. Yes, I feel like an outsider in the sense that there's lots of things that I don't do that I would do if I wanted to be on the inside, like joining insurance panels and stuff like that. I probably feel better about that than I ought to though because it's not that important. It does restrict my access in some ways, but mostly what it does is restrict my income.
DK: Right, it can be a tough choice to side-step the whole insurance industry.
GG: Yes. But I'm clearly an insider in the sense that I described before. I pick up the phone and say, “This is Dr. Greenberg,” then I get somewhere on the phone tree.
DK: Do you do that with a smirk?
GG: No. I do it totally straightforwardly, because I'm just trying to be effective and that is the way you're effective. These questions can come down to a kind of moral anorexia—a sort of refusal to take in the goodies that are out there because we all know they're tainted. I think that in some ways you've got to be fair to yourself and to others and say that the life lived entirely outside is very, very difficult and in some ways less effective. There are people who I have helped not by virtue of my education, or my training, or my insider-ness, or my license. It is something inherent to those that have allowed me to help them, but my availability to them, even if it's not about money, just the fact that I'm out there and legally practice my trade, just the fact that I'm available to them is what made it possible for me to help them.

The Writer as Therapist or the Therapist as Writer?

DK: I also was a journalist before becoming a psychotherapist, and I tend to come at things with a critical point of view, and I often have the experience of being critical of the “profession,” of training programs, of the way that we organize—and don’t organize—around issues of justice, etc. But at the same time, I simply love the work, itself, with clients and some of my very best friends are therapists. I feel like I’ve got a real love-hate relationship with the profession that I haven’t fully worked out yet.

One of the reasons I’m so interested in your work is that you seem to be able to traverse both worlds—to be a writer, and to write honestly and critically and self-revealingly about the profession while still very much being in it. Do you see the writer in you and the psychotherapist in you as fundamentally complementary? Do they ever come at odds? Do you ever not write about things because you're worried about your clients?
GG: In both of the books that we've been talking about, I write a little bit about my actual practice, but I hate doing it. I would not be disappointed if I never did it again. I don't know if that's a principled stand—I just don't like doing it. I think it's really hard. I don't know if you ever saw the TV series “In Treatment.”
DK: Yes, I loved it. It rankled me, but I loved it.
GG: That was the most realistic handling of psychotherapy ever, that I've seen, in the mass media—and it was boring. Nothing happens.
The person that I am as a therapist is not someone that I want to write about.
I mean, it's okay with me, I was interested in it, but I don't think it did well because it's just day-to-day what goes on in therapy. It's really hard to write about. There are some people who can pull it off nicely, like Irvin Yalom, but for me anyway, the person that I am as a therapist is not someone that I want to write about.
DK: What do you mean?
GG: If someone comes into my office for therapy, I feel like it's a total breach to write about them, even if I ask for permission. Even if I disguise them. That's how I feel about it, having done it now a few times. The Book of Woe went through a very, very extensive legal review and the case material was altered to the point that it was no longer factual. It was really fiction, and if I'm going to write fiction I should write fiction. I really believe that. I don't know that a reporter has any obligation, or even ability, to be objective, but to intentionally make shit up? If you’re going to make it up, make it up. If you're not going to make it up, don't. And if you can't write about it without making it up, don't write about it.
DK: Do you feel like you have to sort of forget about your therapist self when you're writing? Are you split off in some way?
GG: I guess so. I never really thought about that. No, I would say it’s the other way around. I have to forget about my writer self when I'm doing therapy. I can't really think about myself as a writer when I'm working with people. Once in a while something so fascinating occurs, so remarkable that you picture yourself writing about it, but in general therapy is something that I go and I do, and it's a performance—and I don't mean that in a cynical way—it's a thing that I do. But the writing draws on all of me in a way that the therapy doesn't.
DK: So do you feel you are more of a writer than a therapist?
GG: I guess so. I never really thought about it before. There's something that I do as a therapist—there's a way that you use yourself, and all of you has to be available to yourself. But you also as a therapist have to bracket certain things.
You have to look at the fact that you want to write about somebody, and that has to be just as subject to scrutiny as your desire to have sex with your patient.
You have to look at the fact that you want to write about somebody, and that has to be just as subject to scrutiny as your desire to have sex with your patient. It's like, “Okay, yeah, that's something that I feel, and I've got to figure it out, and I've got to deal with it here.” But I can't take it for granted any more than I can take it for granted if I had a sexual impulse, or some strong negative reaction to somebody. Whereas with writing, that's a whole different kind of discipline, where you have to take whatever it is and transform it into words.
DK: You aren't thinking, “What if Sheila reads this?” when you write?
GG: No. I probably should, but I think if I did I wouldn't be able to maintain both disciplines, because people actually do read my writing.
DK: And they come in to talk about it sometimes?
GG: Oh yeah. Sometimes they do. I've got a relatively wide readership, but I'm certainly not a famous writer, and therefore most of the people that I work with may not even know that I have a writing career.
DK: So you don't bring it in.
GG: No. I don't bring it in at all. My books aren't in my office. I don't mention it.
DK: Do you feel like it would be an intrusion?
GG: Yeah, of course. I don't talk about the argument I just had with my son either. Actually, there are situations in which I might talk about writing, but it very much depends. I see people who are artists or writers, and with those people I do sometimes bring it in.
DK: That’s interesting. I'm struggling with my identities in a way that it sounds like you haven't and don’t. You just write, and you're not tormented about it.
GG: Well, I was doing therapy for many years before I got into writing.
DK: Well this has been a fascinating interview. Thank you so much for your time.
GG: Thank you.

Lynn Ponton on the Challenges and Joys of Working with Teens

A Delicate Balance

Rachel Zoffness: Lynn Ponton, you are a practicing psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who has been working with teens for over thirty years, and are author of the books, The Romance of Risk: Why Teenagers Do the Things They Do and The Sex Lives of Teenagers: Revealing the Secret World of Adolescent Boys and Girls. Let’s start with some of the salient issues that come up when you’re working with children and teenagers. I find that confidentiality when working with kids and teens is often a tricky subject because teenagers have rights as clients and they want to maintain their privacy, which is critical to the alliance. But at the same time parents want to know what’s going on with their children. How do you maintain this delicate balance?
Lynn Ponton: I think it begins with the first session, and even before, when you talk with the parents on the phone—you have to alert them about how you run your therapy practice and your work with kids. I almost always say that I try to encourage privacy with the teens so that they feel open to talk with me, and I will tell their child during the first session that I’m going to try to keep things confidential, but that there will be some exceptions, and I let parents know that right away on the phone. In general, I meet the teen with the parents before I even start and I alert everybody to the parameters and the boundaries around confidentiality.
RZ: So that both the teenager and the parent are on the same page and know exactly where you stand.
LP: Exactly. The kinds of things I would need to share with parents, which I’m clear about right from that first session, would be drug use that was risky or risky behavior that would result in serious self-harm. And sometimes other things—abuse when it’s disclosed has to be shared with the parents for a variety of reasons, and because I’m a mandated reporter.

It’s often hard for a teenager to tell their parents these things directly, so I’ll offer to meet with them and their parents and we’ll work together to help them disclose this material. Collaboration with the young person assures them that even if they do tell me something, it’s not going to be reported over the telephone to their parents. They’re not going to find out about it by surprise. Instead, we’re going to collaborate together as a team to make sure that parents know this.

Of course there are times when this doesn’t always work perfectly. Having worked with kids for more than 35 years, there have been exceptions where I’ve found out quickly that a teenager is suicidal and I have to let the parents know. Maybe we have to work toward a hospitalization period or something like that, but I try as much as I can to have the teenager be part of this process and be involved with it.

Cutting

RZ: You mentioned a very hot button and interesting topic, cutting, which to me seems to have become almost a contagious and trendy behavior among teenagers. What’s your thought about that?
LP: Well, self-mutilation in all of its forms is something that therapists have to learn to feel comfortable with working with teenagers. It’s a big part of our work to connect with them, to know about it, to seem comfortable with it and not put off by it when we hear about it in a session. I first saw it about 30 years ago and wrote a paper on it in the ‘80s, which talked about self-mutilation as a communication. As you point out, it’s a contagious risk-taking behavior. In a group of teenagers, one will do it and the others will copy. They’ll think, “I’ll try it and see what I can learn from it.” That’s how that process really starts. In the ‘80s there were big concerns about self-mutilation because of sharing of implements and a lack of understanding around HIV risk, so we had to be very careful about that until we better understood it.

I think it’s often scariest for parents. So how do you work with teens around the cutting for parents? How do you help a teenager who is cutting really find other ways to cope with some of their feelings and to develop identity in a healthier way? In general I try to educate teens about cutting. I often employ them to get involved in it, to look online, look up articles about cutting. We’ll have conversations about it so that it’s really an educational process with them.

Some teens don’t want to engage in that process.
They may tell you they’re cutting, but they don’t want to learn about it, they want to do it.
They may tell you they’re cutting, but they don’t want to learn about it, they want to do it. This is something private that they’re going to do to help themselves feel better, so I’ll respect that, but I’ll still engage in conversations with them about it. I want to make sure that if they are cutting that it is safe in other ways. There’s significant risk of scarring, of infection—there’s a whole lot of risks that are associated with it.

Many teens cut because they say they feel better afterwards. A number of papers point to the beta endorphin release with cutting—the focus then becomes the physical cut and not the emotional pain that they’re feeling. So it accomplishes a lot for teenagers, but it is an unhealthy coping strategy and risk-taking behavior that you have to work with teens to limit. There are many different ways to do that.
RZ: The way you talk about cutting, it sounds like it might serve an important function for the teenagers who are doing it. What would you say to people who say that it’s just an attention-seeking strategy?
LP: Your question is well placed because I think a lot of times therapists who work with teenagers are faced either by teachers or parents or even other therapists who say, “I don’t want to work with those teens. They’re engaged in a lot of attention-seeking behaviors. How do you handle that?”

I think many behaviors in life are attention-seeking, and often we’re seeking greater attention from ourselves, that we pay attention to our own pain. Teens usually cut because they’re in pain and they don’t necessarily understand their own emotional pain but when they cut, it allows them to at least understand that it’s a painful thing that they’re dealing with. So, yes, it is attention-seeking, and adults will often be drawn in to it. Teachers at school are shocked when they find out about it and they’re worried other kids will cut.

But I think there are a lot of other factors that play in to cutting besides seeking attention. I’m also interested in questions about molestation with cutting. Were they ever hurt? Did they ever suffer abuse? Are they using that in the context of cutting? Has it become very ingrained, so it’s a behavior that they use as a coping strategy that they may have done thousands of times and they find themselves unable to stop? How does it fit in with their family?

Does their family know much about it?
There are many, many reasons why young people cut, and attention-seeking is only one of them.
One of the cases that I worked on for a long time, a girl cut because her father was a surgeon. He talked about cutting all the time, a different kind of cutting, but she imitated him in a kind of identification with her father. It took a long time to unravel, as it wasn’t obvious at the beginning of her treatment. There are many, many reasons why young people cut, and attention-seeking is only one of them. And it’s not often the major one. You have to address the complexity of the behavior and also the feelings that go with them.

Five Perspectives

RZ: I think some professionals are concerned that giving too much time and attention to cutting might be positively reinforcing. So it seems to me that as a clinician addressing it you want to find a balance between over-reacting and under-reacting.
LP: I think that’s more of a strict cognitive behavioral model way of looking at it, and it gets to the question of models and how they affect our work. Cutting is a behavior, but it’s attached to many other perspectives that we look at when we’re engaged in therapy. I try to look at things from at least five perspectives.

One is the more dynamic-relational, where you engage and are looking at aspects of the relationship—how it affects you, the parents, the cutting behavior, all of that. How disclosure plays a role in that. Attachment. Therapeutic alliance. Then there’s the behavioral model. A lot of therapists don’t use that model, but I think it helps to focus on the behavior. I often have kids keep a timesheet or a workbook on their cutting behavior and have them draw their feelings at the time that they’re cutting in addition to recording the number of times they cut. It’s a kind of cutting journal that we look at from a behavioral perspective. We also look at their thoughts that are occurring at the time that they’re cutting, so we can target really negative thoughts.

Then there is the family system. Cutting is usually very much connected with parents in some way or another—they’re worried about the parent’s reactions; they’re worried about feelings they have that they feel the parents can’t help them with. A lot of our kids have trouble with self-soothing, so they’ll cut to self-soothe. The parents might like to learn how to help soothe their teen, or help their teen gain self-soothing mechanisms, but they don’t even know the cutting is going on so they can’t focus on that area with them. Or they, themselves, may be unable to self-soothe and not know that it’s an important skill that you need for raising teenagers.

Carl Whitaker always said, "You lose the parents, you lose the family, you lose the case."
And then there’s the aspect of meaning for the teenager. What does cutting mean to them? Do they think about suicide? Some cutting is related to suicide. Self-harm that is related to suicide is very important to pay attention to, not just for our board tests but in our office with our kids.

Lastly there’s the biological perspective. With some kids that I work with, they carry biological conditions which may lead to increased cutting behavior. Prader-Willi Syndrome is one of those that has some increased cutting and self-harm. You want to be thinking about underlying conditions that might contribute to this behavior.

All of those things are going through my mind, so I’m not thinking, “if I pay attention to this behavior I will reinforce it.” Instead I’m working on all of these levels if I can. I didn’t start with this in the first year or two of being a therapist working with kids, but the longer I’ve worked with kids, the more I’ve been able to see the complexity of so-called simple behaviors.
RZ: I really appreciate that more systemic approach to working with families because when you work with children and teenagers you’re never just working with a child. You’re always working with the family and the larger system.
LP: One of my greatest teachers was Carl Whittaker, a well-known family therapist I worked with as a young medical student therapist in Wisconsin. He always said, “you lose the parents, you lose the family, you lose the case, Lynn.” I kept that in mind and it’s really helped me with all of these cases.

Manualized Treatments

RZ: Apropos of what you just said, I was trained in manualized treatments and I do see a use for them. But a lot of therapists think they’re mumbo jumbo and that they don’t address and can’t respond to the spontaneity of what happens in treatment face to face with clients. How would you make a case for manualized treatments, if at all, or what would you say to people who don’t believe in them?
LP: Well, there are now manualized treatments in dynamic relational work. There are over 400 manualized treatments that I know of in working with children and adolescents from a behavioral modality. Family therapy, too, has manualized treatments. I don’t think there are any in the more existential perspective, because it kind of runs counter to manualization. In biological therapies they have always had manualized treatments for how you evaluate symptoms and work with things.

When I work with young therapists—and I supervise a lot of residents, fellows, psychologists, psychiatrists who are at all stages of training—I really encourage them to pick one or two manualized treatments and really learn them—go away for a day or a weekend, learn the strategy, practice it, and try to become familiar with it. Even if you’re going to be a strict psychoanalyst or family therapist, I think they’re valuable because they teach you how to focus on specific things, how to evaluate. Often manualized treatments have an evaluative component built in, so you have to look at your actions and evaluate how they’re working at the end. That’s a very important part of all therapy.
RZ: Measuring one’s progress?
LP: Exactly. That’s the key, I think, in mastering some of our work. Now, which ones would I recommend? I think one of the best ones to know about is the basic cognitive behavioral therapy approach as developed by Aaron Beck at Pennsylvania. He was my supervisor when I trained there as a resident, and it’s a very successful modality to use. It helps us understand the impact of negative thinking. Another supervisor of mine was Joe Weiss, who worked on Control Mastery theory—which is about negative thoughts and ideas and the power of unconscious beliefs. I admire Marsha Linehan a great deal and the Dialectical Behavioral Therapy model. I’ve had some wonderful conversations with her about her work with adolescents and I think she really grasps what it’s like to work with high-risk adolescents. I would encourage almost anyone to look at her book on working with high-risk adolescents. It’s a wonderful model and it adds much to the work we do with young people. A third area that I think people should look into is trauma. We work so much with trauma as child and adolescent therapists. There is a trauma focused interview that we can do with kids that I use all the time. It’s very useful in diagnosis and at looking at symptom category.

I think learning a little bit about any one of these models helps any child and adolescent therapist function in a more complete way.
RZ: So it sounds like what you would advocate for is an understanding and knowledge of these manualized treatments because it gives you, as a clinician, more tools in your tool belt to pull out for individual clients as they come to you with their individual differences.
LP: It’s one of the reasons the tool belt concept is helpful. But it also makes you feel more comfortable as a therapist, knowing that you have some grasp of these different ideas. Knowing that you’re not following one dogma, but are open to new ideas, because I think ultimately as therapists we end up constructing our own way of working. The theories that we use to support our work, the collection of tasks and techniques that we define and use—these form the basis of our work . It’s very valuable to look at other people’s constructions, integrate them into our own work and say, “hey, this is useful for me. It works with these patients. I can really take this and run with it.” I mentioned five perspectives that I’ve accrued over maybe 35, 40 years of work, but I anticipate over the next 40 years there are going to be others that will greatly benefit our work as child and adolescent therapists.
RZ: There are therapists and other mental health practitioners who would say that defining yourself as eclectic dilutes your work. Do you believe that that’s true? How do you define your theoretical orientation when asked?
LP: I remember that same question from 35 years ago in residency. I think having multiple perspectives strengthens our work, and there are multiple perspectives within each of these theories, so it’s not like people who belong to one model are necessarily doing some ossified therapy that was created by some individual or group of individuals. In my work, I want to stay open and patients open me up.

One reason I like adolescent work, even though I feel like I’m getting older, is that it keeps me young. It keeps me open to new ideas. My patients actually taught me how to text on my cell phone; my patients are coded in by their first name so that they can call me and have a relationship with me.
My patients actually taught me how to text on my cell phone.
I remember one of my other supervisors, Hilda Brook, who worked a lot with eating disorders, was working with teens into her 70s and early 80s in a wheelchair, and she had greater facility with them than even I have today in my 60s. We can continue to grow in our work with teens if we stay young in other ways.

Texting

RZ: You bring up a very important and hot button issue when working with teenagers, which is texting. And I think doing therapy with teenagers and kids today is a whole new world because teenagers and kids are used to communicating through their technology. What are the upsides and downsides of deciding to be a clinician who texts with your clients as you are?
LP: I think it’s important to be aware of some of the legal parameters around texting. Many of us work with large organizations, and it’s important to be aware of HIPAA regulations and such. HIPAA doesn’t regulate all therapists, only certain therapists who are involved with electronic billing, which you might be if you work in a large institution and you bill electronically. In that case you are HIPAA regulated and with regard to texting, HIPAA states that you cannot be sending clinical decisions through a texting modality or an unsupervised modality. You have to have some regulations around it.

When I worked at UCSF for 35 years, I was in a large system that was HIPAA regulated. My texts, which I did with teenagers for 10 years during that period, dealt with scheduling, and if they texted me about an issue that I was clinically concerned about, I’d have them come in so that we could then talk about it and then work on it in person.

But the texting connection I think is very, very important with teens and therapists. Not all therapists can do it for a variety of reasons. Not everyone feels comfortable with it and not all teens have phones. I’ve done a lot of work with homeless teens, who usually don’t have phones, so you have to figure out other ways to communicate with them.

But the bulk of teens out there today do have access to texting and they will communicate that way, often just to check in with you. They may just want to know you’re there and I think that sets up a relationship with them. I don’t always respond to those texts, but they know that I’m receiving and reading them.

But let’s say you’re not HIPAA regulated, so you can put anything on text. I would still say if you’ve got a big clinical concern with a teen—let’s say they text you, “I’m cutting, I think it’s out of control, I’m feeling really anxious”—I’m going to call them immediately rather than text, and most likely try to get them in to see me if I can. So it’s not that I’m sending long texts back and forth about that type of behavior. I’m really using it as a way to communicate to stay in touch.

Other ways that teens will keep me informed, they’ll often text me, “Saw an article you should be reading, doc,” or “thought you’d like this.” Those things are important because it is a reciprocal relationship. I’m largely involved in educating young people, but they help me a lot, too, and I get a lot from them.
RZ: For therapists in private or group practice who don’t work for large organizations, is there a downside to texting? For example, what if you lose your phone?
LP: I think that gets back to just have their first name, maybe an initial afterwards, but no way that they could really be identified. And if they’re very sensitive texts you can also erase them, although we all know that things are out in the cloud forever. So be aware that that information is out there.

This is also one of the things that you should discuss in the first session. I often discuss with my patients my availability, how they can get a hold of me, so they know that I will have their first name on the cell phone, and their phone number, and that I’m fairly easily accessible. I believe one of the reasons I’ve been so successful with teenagers and their parents is because I have very good accessibility. I take my cell phone all over the world when I travel. I do have somebody on call to cover, but I’m available in that way. But let’s say that cell phone is lost, and I’ve never lost my cell phone, though I fear it all the time, Rachel. I’m looking around for it and I worry about memory loss and loss of cell phone. But if it’s lost I think you have to alert the patients, especially those that you’re texting with, that there is a risk and the cell phone was lost. Most of them are not that concerned about it because their whole name is not out there. There’s not a lot of information out there. But I think it’s important to do that. But I also know from forensic cases that you can actually remove data from a distance off of a cell phone, which might actually be required if you work for a university or large organization.

Sexting

RZ: Technology and internet use seems to be a primary source of conflict between parents and kids. Do you see this a lot in your practice? And how do you go about addressing it both with the parents and with the children?
LP: Very young kids, 9, 10, 11, 12 are using the internet or videogames or other media for large periods of time, and parents are often seeing symptoms—kids are struggling with school, their concentration is impaired, and they’re not engaged in other activities or relationships.
Some boys are being prosecuted for texting sexual photos and parents of boys are very concerned about this.
I think that that’s a very important area to be aware of. Parents need education around the signs to be looking out for when kids are struggling. We need to think about their media profiles, how much time are they on TV, how much time they are playing videogames, how much time are they on internet, and what different modalities they’re involved with.

When families come in, I’ll have both the kid and the parents keep a journal and write their feelings down about what’s happening when there’s a confrontation at home regarding this behavior. And all of that comes back into the session. I often will use the family modality to meet at that point and we’ll talk about what’s going on in that type of interaction.

The other area that comes up frequently with teenagers is sexting—texting sexual material. During the past five years I would estimate I’ve had 50 teenagers referred to me who have been involved in sexting activities.

In general, the girls are involved in sexting pictures, nude photos of themselves that have caused some great difficulty. These are often selfies where the girls will hold the camera out in front of themselves, often in their bedroom or bathroom, sometimes partially clothed, sometimes not, and then they’ll text the photo to a friend or friends, and then it gets texted everywhere. That type of interaction is very important to pay attention to and I’ll generally work with the teenage girl alone and talk with her about what happened. The feelings around sexual development are very private and tender, and it’s deeply shocking that this is suddenly exposed to a large group of people. I work with the family around this behavior, too, and sometimes will meet with parents alone to help them understand why this behavior might have taken place.

I would say a smaller number of the sexting cases, roughly 20%, are boys texting nude photos of themselves, but they’re mostly texting nude photos of girls. There are also laws involved with this and I’ve been involved with the FBI and other law enforcement officials around how to handle these cases. There’s awareness in high schools now that they have to report these cases when they discover that boys are texting sexual photos of girls. Some boys are being prosecuted for texting sexual photos and parents of boys are very concerned about this.
RZ: How do you handle those cases when they come in?
LP: First be aware of the legal ramifications. Second, encourage them to get legal advice, because we as therapists can’t provide all of that. Third, I often will meet with the boy individually and try to get a sense of what happened and work with them around that. Many boys are shocked that this has happened. They may have thought they were doing what the other guys at school were doing, that it was cool, they were getting more status. But I’ve also seen boys who’ve had long-standing problems and the texting of the sexual photos is connected to other sexual difficulties that they’ve been struggling with. They may have been molested. They may have molested another person. So to be aware of that, to be open to hearing about that is very important.

Parents of boys are often very angry about this process. They feel that the boy is at a disadvantage because though he sexted the photos, it was the girl who originally sent the photos out so it should be her responsibility. Helping the parents see that we have to take a deeper look at what’s going on with their son under these circumstances is really, really important and not easy to do. You have to stay open to their feelings about their boys being scapegoated, but at the same time point out this is something we have to pay attention to.

The intersection of online work and sexuality is really a key area to focus on, to get as much help as you can as a therapist. Sometimes if I have a question, even today I’ll go to another therapist that I think has more expertise in this area and get supervision.
RZ: Are there particular resources for therapists who want to learn more about how they can be better clinicians when addressing something like sexting?
LP: Yes. I’m not going to toot my own horn about this, but I’ve written an article that’s online about sexting and working with clinicians that I think is very helpful. It has a literature review of a couple of cases and ten guidelines for parents and therapists around this area. There are not recent and current books because it’s a fairly new topic, but I think it’s something we’re going to see more of in textbooks and articles. A lot of young psychologists’ dissertations have been done on sexting, and those are valuable if you can get a copy and read them.

Learn to Like Kids

RZ: What advice do you have for beginning clinicians treating kids and teens?
LP: The most important thing about doing this work is that you have to be knowledgeable about your own childhood and adolescence. You have to have thought about it, its impact on your own development, the issues that you might bring to the work, questions and preconceptions about it, etc. I encourage almost all therapists to have their own experience in therapy and to explore some of these issues.

Second, what helps the most in this work is really loving children and adolescents. Having a strong love for that age group or working toward it. Let’s say you don’t love it, you’re kind of afraid of it, maybe you’re going to work toward a passion in that area. You’re going to learn why you’re afraid of that age group and you’re going to try it out and get supervision with somebody who is really very good at it. It is a group that is fun to work with, is very challenging, and can really be a growth opportunity for you as a therapist. But I’d say try to develop a passion for it. Learn to like kids. Learn a lot about child and adolescent development. I think either being a parent or playing a role with your nieces and your nephews and other kids is really important.

Third, you’ve got to be able to work with parents. When I was younger and starting out one of my mistakes was that I thought I knew what it was like to be a parent long before I was a parent, and I was often angry with how parents treated kids. By now I’ve gone through decades, I’ve had my own kids and I see it differently. I see myself as a valuable resource to parents and I have great empathy for them.

Sometimes I have to do very difficult things with parents.
Once I had to climb through a glass window when a young mother was holding her new baby and was psychotic and trying to do something to the baby.
Once I had to climb through a glass window when a young mother was holding her new baby and was psychotic and trying to do something to the baby. The police were there and there was obviously a lot involved with this, but we had to save the baby and rip the baby out of the mother’s arms. So there are things that you often have to do in this work that are not very easy with parents and I think I’ve learned how to do those with concern and empathy as I’ve grown older and become an older therapist. But at the beginning I would say stay open to the work with parents. Keep your eyes open. Realize you don’t know everything.

Fourth, Don’t just accept a dogma. Try to integrate and construct your own idea of how to do the work. I talked earlier about the five perspectives I use but think about those that work best for you, yourself, as a therapist, and with the patients you’re working with.

Lastly I’d focus on the first session and developing a good alliance with kids relatively quickly. That first session is really important—how you connect to your passion, staying open, not being judgmental. Watching tapes of other therapists do first sessions can be really helpful, or being in a study group where you share information about your sessions with kids. Or even observing preschool teachers, who are often very good with kids, welcome kids into the classroom, integrate them, and get them playing and involved in activities. All of that adds to our abilities in that area.
RZ: What do you think has helped you become a better clinician?
LP: Years of experience have helped a lot. Reading widely has helped a lot. Having my own children has helped a lot. I have four—two step sons and two daughters—and I’ve learned from all of them. It’s not been easy.

Supervising younger therapists has also been really helpful, because I’ve listened to their problems and I really try to figure out what they’re going through, which keeps me more in touch with what it’s like to start this work. This is not easy work. There’s a lot to learn. We make a lot of mistakes in it, but we do a lot of good.

Maybe the last thing I’d say about it is I’ve been so impressed over all the years of working with adolescents how many return. They bring their own kids back for treatment. That keeps me in it more than anything—having the kids come back with their own children, and seeing that they’ve shared things I said to them. This is not everybody, of course, because I’ve had over the course of my career two adolescents who killed themselves. I’ve gone through a lot of difficult experiences, as have my patients, but I am impressed with this type of work and how much we can help kids if we stick with it.

It’s wonderful work that makes you feel very good about your life’s work at the end of it. I don’t see myself at the end of it, but I have talked with others, like James Anthony, a role model of mine who was a wonderful child therapist who worked with Anna Freud. When I was a very young student I had the opportunity of working with him in London. He loved the work and he still continues to teach me things—and he’s in his late ‘90s. He talks about having patients come back and treating the grandchildren of the children he saw. That is an amazing thing. It’s a chance to be very connected with others in life really.

Suicide

RZ: It sounds incredibly powerful to have had such a positive impact on someone as a teenager that they want to bring their own teenagers to you once they have had children. It also sounds incredibly powerful to have lost an adolescent client to suicide and I’m wondering if you feel comfortable talking about that a little bit.
LP: It’s a reason that a lot of therapists seek out supervision.
RZ: It’s admittedly my worst fear.
LP: I think it is for all of us. It’s not just the legal aspects of it. We all carry liability insurance and we’re worried about that part of it—but it’s also just the connection. I will say that I really remember these patients and their treatment very, very well because of going through this and thinking about it a lot. The first was a young man who killed himself when I was the director of the adolescent unit at UCSF.
RZ: How old was he?
LP: He was 19 and he had very severe bipolar disorder. He stopped his medicines when I went on vacation and then went into the woods and shot himself. I had arranged for somebody to cover me during this period of time. It was a short vacation, but still enough for this to happen. I’ve thought about it a great deal, of course. It’s changed the way I take vacations. I still take them, but I’m very alert, thinking about coverage and concern about these teenagers and children when I leave.

I spent several months working with his family. They had anticipated it more than I had and that surprised me. I went to the service and worked with them in a collaborative mode, which I did not charge them for, and they were very grateful. I’ve stayed in touch with them in some ways, though that happened I’d say roughly about 30 years ago now.

The other suicide was about 20 years ago and was a patient I’d worked with for years. She had a chronic psychotic condition. She was a very bright young woman and I had spent a lot of time with her. She had promised me that she would not harm herself until she was 30 years old, and then she killed herself not long after her 30th birthday. So she stayed alive working with me for years I think to try to get better, and we tried everything. Family therapy, medications—and it was clear that she was going to be living with a chronic psychotic illness that was incredibly painful for her.

I still think about her all the time. I think she helped me in many ways to understand that sometimes we work with individuals who are suffering so much that from their perspective, their life is really not worth living.
Sometimes we work with individuals who are suffering so much that from their perspective, their life is really not worth living.
We can discuss that with them, we can work to help them, many different things can be done, but there are limits to the work that we do. She left me a number of drawings she drew and painted. I think a lot about her family. I worked in much the same way that I described with the earlier boy. I met with her family and had contact with them for a long period of time. I still think about her all the time.
RZ: I bet. I think this is particularly important to talk about for young therapists who are, as you mentioned before, maybe put off entirely by cutting because they’re so scared of it, or don’t want to work with suicidal clients because they’re so afraid of losing a patient. It’s really valuable for me as a young therapist to hear you talk about having gone through this worst fear with a couple of your clients and not only did you get through it, but it made you a stronger clinician ultimately.
LP: I think ultimately it did. Of course, a big part of this was questioning what I had done with them and if I had made the right decisions.
RZ: Of course.
LP: Had I done something wrong?
RZ: That’s natural.
LP: I think any therapist who has had a patient suicide question their work. Families question their interactions with their children after suicide. We all think about it. I work with many teenagers, especially here in the Bay Area, who have had friends suicide, and the young teens question what they could have done to help their friend. It’s not only us as a group of therapists who question ourselves, but it’s really the world that comes forward to question itself around suicides.
RZ: It seems like that’s the first question people ask friends, family, and therapists alike: What could I have done? Could I have done something different or better? And I think that is a real challenge.
LP: It’s natural and appropriate to ask those questions and explore them, but it’s also important to really understand that there are limits in life to what we can do. It’s important in this line of work to talk about this aspect of it.
RZ: That’s a very realistic and compassionate perspective. Thank you for your time and for your wisdom.
LP: And thank you for your good questions, Rachel.