Are High-Risk Clients Suitable for Online Psychotherapy?

Into the Virtual Unknown

When we first began practicing online via the Skype interface, each of us felt a similar trepidation. Four or five years ago when we started, online psychotherapy was in its infancy and there were no supervisors or established authorities to guide us, so there was an understandable fear of the unknown.

We also worried about mastering the technology, as neither of us is particularly skilled in computer matters more complicated than word processing and email composition. Should we use built-in or external cameras? Should we use headsets with boom microphones? How fast of an Internet connection did we and our clients need? And perhaps unnoticed at the time but inspiring a subtle anxiety: “Would we be less skillful as therapists, less confident in our abilities, when we no longer met with a client within the authoritative confines of our own offices?”

Another source of anxiety was deciding which clients to accept for online treatment. Uncertain of our ability to work in this new format, we originally believed that we ought to confine our online practice to high-functioning clients—people who’d be able to sustain the supposedly less intimate form of contact and, with only a screen image for bonding, wouldn’t feel detached or abandoned. High-risk clients such as those who self-injured or posed a risk of suicide were definitely off limits. Today, when we discuss the subject of online therapy with some of our colleagues, we encounter similar questioning, and sometimes profound skepticism.

Over the ensuing years, we’ve both become entirely comfortable with the technical interface offered by Skype and confident in our abilities to provide quality online psychotherapy. With experience, we’ve also come to feel that the population of clients who might benefit is much larger than we first believed. There are still limits, of course, especially when there is a serious risk to life or when a client is psychotic; but based on the past five years, we’ve found that nearly all prospective clients can benefit from online psychotherapy.

Joseph first began to envision a larger scope to his potential online practice during his early work with a client who had concealed the extent of her involvement with self-injury at the beginning of treatment.

Anastasia pushed the scope of her work when an ongoing client she had started treating face-to-face in Spain for acute panic attacks had to return to Russia: Transitioning to online therapy was the only way to continue working with her.

Danielle and Olga are two clients who didn’t at first appear to be good candidates for online psychotherapy as they both displayed ongoing instability in moods and behaviors.

Danielle (Joseph’s client)


Danielle had followed my blog for a couple of years before she contacted me for treatment, not long after I began working by Skype. On her client questionnaire, she disclosed a history of self-injury but described it as minor, under control, and not life threatening. She insisted that she wasn’t suicidal. In our email exchanges prior to scheduling a first session, I told her that I couldn’t see her less than twice a week; otherwise, I didn’t feel we’d have the conditions to manage her issues. If I’d been seeing her in person, I would have required the same twice-weekly sessions.

During our first exploratory session, before we committed to working together, I made sure that she had an adequate local support system in case of emergency. Danielle assured me that, if she did at some point feel suicidal or if self-injury became a much larger issue, she had resources to contact: her pastor as well as a local therapy practice to which her prior therapist had belonged before he moved to another city. Danielle was familiar with emergency medical services and knew whom to call. Although I felt a little apprehensive about her history of self-injury, I felt that we’d established the conditions necessary to begin treatment.

From the beginning, Danielle and I developed a strong working relationship. Because she’d read every one of my blog posts, many of which are quite revealing, it didn’t feel to her as if I were a complete stranger. I found her endearing, engaging, and a pleasure to work with. In her line of work, Danielle managed a team remotely and held daily meetings by Skype, so she was even more comfortable with the medium than I was. We met twice a week on Tuesdays and Fridays. It soon began to feel to me no different from meeting a client in person, as difficult as that is for professionals who haven’t worked by Skype to understand.

Although she didn’t disclose the full details of her past until much later, Danielle let me know early on that she’d been sexually molested by more than one of her stepfathers beginning when she was 7 years old. She also told me that her mother had looked the other way when a family friend began abusing Danielle later on; the mother needed the man’s help and essentially gave away her daughter in exchange for it. This arrangement went on for several years.

A month or so into treatment, it became clear that Danielle’s involvement with self-injury was far from “minor”; she admitted that she’d misrepresented how serious it was out of fear that I wouldn’t accept her as a client if she’d told the truth. In fact, “I probably would not have taken her into my practice had I known.” Relatively inexperienced in working by Skype at that point, I would have assumed that a client who self-injures needed the more immediate contact afforded by in-person therapy.

Minor hair pulling, pinching, and scratching helped Danielle to manage her emotions most of the time—she’d explained this to me at the very beginning. But as I later learned, when conflict arose with her ex-husband or work became especially difficult, she’d cut herself with razor blades to find release from emotions that threatened to overwhelm her. During that stressful period, a month or so into therapy, cutting had become a daily practice.

By that point, I’d already developed a strong connection with Danielle and didn’t feel I could simply stop working with her, although I did feel more anxious about her welfare. At the same time, I wasn’t frightened and didn’t make Danielle sign a contract binding her not to cut as a condition of treatment. I’ve worked with other women who self-injure and understand the dynamics of emotional self-regulation involved in cutting. I felt that together, given our strong working bond, we could help her find healthier ways to self-soothe.

A complicated transference relationship soon developed. While on one level, Danielle idealized me and developed some sexual fantasies about the two of us together, on an unconscious level, she also struggled with a great deal of rage toward me, displaced from all those “fathers” who should have looked after her but instead exploited her as a sexual object. The cutting also had more than one meaning. It provided emotional relief, as I’d seen with other clients, but it also gave Danielle an outlet for the rage she felt. As I put it to her during our sessions, she couldn’t hurt me directly but she could get to me by hurting my client.

To confront these emotional dynamics, along with one’s own anxieties about clients who self-injure, often makes professionals unwilling to take such people into their practice. It can be quite scary, especially when these clients often want to scare you. Sometimes it’s because they want you to come to their rescue; sometimes they want to “prove” they can be more powerfully destructive than you are creative; sometimes they need to express the rage they feel for having been helpless and exploited. Bearing with these emotions without becoming terrified or enraged yourself is a major challenge for the therapist. Most professionals understandably worry about a malpractice suit if a client actually were to kill herself. Nobody wants the guilt and regret for having “failed” a client who committed suicide.

But in my experience, the emotional dynamics and therapeutic methods for understanding and coping with those who self-injure are the same with both in-person and Skype clients. I made the same sort of interventions with Danielle as I’ve done with clients I’ve met in my consulting room. By remaining calm and engaged with her, and not retreating in fear or anxiety, I helped her over several years to find better ways to cope with her emotions.

“We survived a period of intense cutting, when severe blood loss brought on heart palpitations, and she began reaching out to me by email between sessions.” Although I don’t normally encourage email contact, I welcomed Danielle’s communications, just as I would have welcomed emails from a self-injuring client I was meeting with in person. Sometimes that extra contact during breaks is needed to support clients in their struggles to take better care of themselves. By the end of our treatment, self-injury truly had become a minor issue.

Early on in my practice by Skype, this experience with Danielle taught me that distance therapy is suitable for many more potential clients than I would have imagined. If she hadn’t concealed the extent of her self-injury at the beginning, I might never have learned this valuable lesson.

Olga (Anastasia’s Client)


When Olga reached out by email, I’d already had experience working online with complex cases. Olga had fled the war in her country and now lived in Prague as a refugee. Her existence was precarious in every possible way; she did not speak Czech and, feeling isolated, was barely able to navigate her new environment. She complained about panic attacks, depression and an “acute desire to die.” For several days previous to her “cry for help” (these were the exact words she chose for the “subject” of her first email), Olga was unable to leave her room and the only “food” she was able to consume was coffee and cigarettes.

I agreed to meet for an introductory session to see whether I would be able to help her. “While I felt an obvious sense of urgency and a natural desire to rescue her, I also secretly planned that after this first conversation, I would refer her to a local English-speaking therapist.” I usually try to avoid any rigid diagnosis, but I suspected that Olga might be labeled as “borderline” and could probably benefit from medication.

Only later, several sessions into our work, did I realize the full extent of Olga’s issues: She experienced social phobia and agoraphobia, was mildly self-harming, and felt suicidal most of the time. The level of isolation and despair she was experiencing at that point made it impossible for her to get out of her room, to struggle with an unfamiliar language or navigate foreign streets, and to engage with a local in-person therapist in her wobbly English.

There were several occasions in the early stages when I questioned my decision to welcome Olga as an online client. We were in the middle of our third session when she suddenly announced: “I need a break, just for a minute,” and she abruptly disconnected. “I sat there, in front of my painfully empty screen and thought to myself that I had lost her.” The intensity of the emotional response that she had read on my face must have made her panic. To see her own unexpressed pain reflected on somebody else’s face was too much for her.

In the chat box, I let her know that I would prefer to remain online whenever she felt overwhelmed by emotions. I was able to keep calm and stay connected without the sort of unpredictable outburst she would typically have received from her mother. Was it ok if I called back? A few minutes later, when we resumed our conversation, she was ready to reflect on what had happened.

The idiosyncrasies of an online setting allowed Olga to regulate her own risk-taking behavior and vulnerability. Temporarily logging off when she felt overwhelmed and then reconnecting once she had recovered was an empowering experience for someone who had been feeling hopeless and depressed for a long time. Such experiences, if used mindfully in the session, often provide great grist for the psychotherapy mill.

At first when we were connecting, Olga would be sitting on the floor: She felt too weak and too ashamed to hold herself upright. In a more traditional setting, the client is forced to adapt to the therapist’s environment. With clients who carry some deep psychological wounds, this can be simply impossible at the beginning of treatment. “The fact that we meet the client in his or her own environment opens a window into the client’s experience: Seeing Olga curled up on the floor of her untidy room, I could sense her shame and fragility.”

Later in treatment, on the day I saw her sitting upright in a chair, with her laptop on the desk in front of her, I knew we’d made some serious progress.

Several months later, when she had more fully recovered and was resolving her current life situation, I asked Olga to share her experience of working with a therapist online. I also informed her that I would use her account in an article. This invitation offered a therapeutic boost to her broken self-esteem: It let her know that not only was her opinion valuable for me, but it could also be of use to others who might also feel isolated and in desperate need. This is what she wrote:

“I remember that day when in the half fog, in the total despair, I plucked up the courage to write you an e-mail. After several attempts to commit suicide, after repeated uncontrollable impulses to harm myself, after feeling myself to be absolutely unfit to live, after realizing I not only can't carry on living like this but don't want to, and it would be better to die right now, what could I do? I could write an email. I didn't have anyone, anything, I wasn't even myself—that in short is how you could have described my condition. My Internet had been paid for. I talked a lot during our first conversation; you gave me this opportunity. I talked and you listened to me until I could get my breath back. I sat on the floor, leaning my back against the wall. Via Skype I could see on my familiar iPad, the calm, compassionate expression of an unknown face on the screen. I knew that at any moment I could press the button and ‘hide.’”

Olga took a huge risk, reaching out when her trust in herself and the world was broken. Now it was my turn to take the risk and be there for her, even if my support would be limited to the screen during our twice-weekly sessions.

Such limitations may at first seem like an obstacle to working with more challenging cases, but they often end up playing an important role in containing people who feel torn and fragmented: They allow these clients to regulate the intensity of the contact, and empower them to make choices about the physical conditions of the session. In the case of Olga, the choice about where and how to sit, and how long to stay connected, helped her to become more aware of the process and of her connection to me. This awareness gave us both insight into our quickly evolving relationship.

Working online with clients who are deeply distressed makes therapists keenly aware of the absence of touch. We cannot shake our client’s hand when we greet them at the door, we cannot offer the same warm gesture at the end of each session. Any online therapist is familiar with this frustration. But with Olga, this physical distance helped her to trust me enough so that she could engage in the process. Olga’s mother had touched her daughter in many abusive ways, asking to join her in bed and to give her endless back rubs. At the initial stage of our work, Olga knew she was safe and out of reach.

Like many online therapists, I often work with clients who are experiencing some form of displacement. Olga’s case may seem extreme, but what she was experiencing in an acute form (due to her precarious refugee status, her traumatic history, and a very particular sensitivity) is familiar to many emigrants as an unavoidable part of their lives. The benefits of online therapy for such individuals cannot be over-estimated. In the case of Olga, before we could get anywhere close to her borderline mother and the abuse she had experienced throughout childhood, we had to deal with the harsh realities of her current living situation: her fear of going out to buy groceries, her inability to engage with others, her disrupted sleep patterns and her struggle to feed herself. At this initial stage, the fact that she was able to connect with me from her own room—the only “safe space” she knew—became crucial. This is Olga’s account:

“… [A]t the very beginning, I deliberately focused my attention on ‘my familiar iPad.’ It has a small screen. For the first few sessions I didn't expand the window to full screen, after several sessions, I tried it for the first time, then forced myself and then I wanted to… Skype therapy was the only therapy possible… I am located within my ‘familiar space.’ I look at your face on the ‘familiar screen.’ I can sit there in whatever clothes suit me and with my hair unbrushed, with my legs pulled up under me, and thus I learn what I am and I don't have to pretend. I am not ‘attacked’ by the details of your room, my consciousness ‘does not float away,’ it doesn't get distracted… and when we finish the session, this screen, this room remains with me. Several sessions ago I was unbearably frightened after each session—do you remember the cries for help in my messages: ‘How can I live each minute?’ Then it became a little bit easier to finish a session and leave myself at least a small drop of the sense that I exist, when we aren't talking any more, I am in a familiar place, as before everything threatened me including myself and I was ‘on the lookout,’ but I can stay at home and immediately crawl under my blanket or continue to sit in the same place, giving myself time to get up and go and do something, however small.”

It took us a few sessions before she was able to follow my advice and reach out to a psychiatrist I had located for her in Prague. She agreed to take medication, which quickly improved her sleep and her concentration. The risk she took in leaving her room and meeting the psychiatrist was our first victory, a testament to our growing therapeutic alliance.

As is often the case with deeply troubled clients, Olga’s childhood had been catastrophic: She grew up in a dark, cold and neglectful environment. Her mother was unpredictable, volatile, and emotionally and physically abusive. She had never been diagnosed, or sought treatment, but her behavior indicated some severe personality disorder (probably BPD). Olga’s father was drunk every evening, and later in life discussed his suicidal urges with no regard to his children’s feelings. Her parents divorced when she was seven, and after that, her eight-year-old brother was supposed to take care of her. Both children cooked, earned money as they could, cleaned the apartment and protected their mother from distress. They knew far too well how violent and terrifying she could become when upset.

Throughout her life, Olga had felt completely responsible for her mother. She continued sending her money (often the only money she had) and supported her mother’s myth about her sacrificial parenting. This came at a high cost; her dysfunctional mother had taken up residence deep within her own bowels. Olga’s behavior toward herself and in her relationships with others mirrored her mother’s shaming, persecutory, and abusive manner.

In the course of our work together, Olga began to experience some intense kidney pain and vomiting, which did not seem to have any purely physiological reasons. On a psychological level, it marked the beginning of a separation and liberation process and an important stage in the therapy. As Olga struggled to separate from her mother, I stayed as “close” to her as I could. We met twice a week, sometimes more, when she was feeling particularly fragile. Through my screen, I bore witness as she relived many painful moments from her childhood; as a new narrative of her life emerged, she began to feel more alive.

As is often the case with online therapy, boundaries were easily challenged. Olga would reach out frequently, sending me distressed messages via the Skype chat box. Initially I felt stressed by these intrusions, but once I addressed the issue openly with her, we agreed on some simple rules: I wouldn’t always respond straight away, or would sometimes just confirm that I was there and thinking about her. This reassured her as to healthy nature of our relationship, strikingly different from what she had experienced with her mother who had constantly pushed, violated, and dismantled boundaries with her violent emotional storms.

The fact that I was located at a safe distance, in a different country, permitted her to experience separateness and create a safe space around her. Soon, she was able to fill it with her own thoughts and desires. Our relationship was by definition at a physical distance, so different from what she had experienced with her mother: They had lived together in the same small apartment for more than twenty years. At crucial moments, this distance and our limited physical access to one another kept us both safe.

Olga went on to experience powerful emotions of hatred and anger, which she could never have expressed to her mother. As for me, the “safe distance” offered by the online setting helped me to be “there for her” at those difficult moments without letting these emotions sweep me (and our relationship) away.

Towards the end of our work Olga regained the ability to deal with her every-day reality. She slowly resumed her daily activities and began engaging with others in healthier ways. For the first time, her life felt like it was actually her life, separate and apart from her mother.

Taking the Risk


In the process of dealing with such difficult cases, we’ve developed some useful strategies. At the outset, we always discuss the limitations of online therapy with new clients, stressing the fact that it doesn’t allow us to be physically present when we might like to be. Addressing this reality openly allows us to model ways of dealing with the frustrations and the limitations of a distance relationship. This modeling is extremely beneficial, particularly for those clients who have little healthy experience with appropriate emotional bonds or are confused about their own personal boundaries.

While we typically meet with our online clients weekly, we tend to offer a more intense rhythm in more challenging cases. In the two cases described above, we met with our clients twice a week, and sometimes more frequently when major shifts or breakthroughs were occurring.

We also found that online clients reached out to us between sessions more often than usual, and responding to their emails turned out to be a very important part of the therapeutic process. While we usually expect in-person clients to cope with the inevitable lack of contact between the sessions, this is sometimes too much to ask of online clients, giving the physical distance. Responding, briefly but mindfully to their emails, helps these individuals to maintain the sometimes-fragile connection. While this places an additional demand upon the therapist’s time, it can be crucial at some stages of the client’s recovery. Once the client starts to feel stronger, the email flow usually diminishes naturally.

In cases involving some serious disturbance, we can also insist that the client meet a psychiatrist in person. We typically raise this subject several sessions into therapy, once a good therapeutic alliance has been established. Even with the most resistant clients, this strategy eventually works out well once they’ve developed enough ego strength and trust in our support to take this challenging step of consulting with a psychiatrist and eventually taking a prescribed medication.

“Expanding one’s practice to the online realm can feel risky, and to accept clients with major disturbances can feel even riskier.” As with any venture into the unknown, however, the effort may widen our perspective: What we had felt to be out of reach suddenly becomes possible, at least with some of the people who approach us for treatment.

And in taking such a risk, are we not modeling something important for our clients?

Louis Cozolino on the Integration of Neuroscience into Psychotherapy—and its Limitations

Neuroscience or Neuro-psychobabble?

Sudhanva Rajagopal: Lou Cozolino, you are a psychologist and professor of psychology at Pepperdine University, where you were a teacher of mine. You’re a prolific writer and researcher on topics ranging from schizophrenia, child abuse, the long-term effects of stress, and, more recently, neuroscience in psychotherapy and the brain as a social organ.As a clinician in training, it seems like there is a lot of neuroscience talk out there in our field, and it gets used to legitimize anything from specific interventions to whole theoretical orientations. My first question to you is, for the clinician in training, how do you recommend that we see through the noise of all that to what is actually helpful in the room with a client? How does knowledge of neuroscience play out in the room and what is actually important for the clinician to know?

Louis Cozolino: There are two main realms where neuroscience can aid clinicians. One is case conceptualization and the other is for clients who aren’t really open to a psychotherapeutic framework or an emotional framework. For them a neuroscientific explanation or conceptualization of their problem is often something they can grasp while they can’t or won’t grasp other things.

People who learn a half a dozen words about neuroscience think they’re neuroscience literate.

But there’s so much psychobabble and neuro-psychobabble out there, and the thing is if you say something is the amygdala as opposed to saying it’s anxiety or fear-based, you haven’t really upgraded the quality of the discourse. You just substituted one word for another. So the risk is that people who learn a half a dozen words about neuroscience think they’re neuroscience literate.

Learning neuroscience takes dedication. It takes work to get beyond the cocktail level of conversation and clichés. It took me ten years to feel like I had any sense of what was going on and I studied it pretty intensively. So I think we all have to be careful, but even more importantly, just because you know some neuroscience doesn’t mean you know anything more than the therapist who doesn’t. It’s really about how you use that information to upgrade the quality of the work you’re doing.

SR: In your book, Why Therapy Works: Using Your Mind to Change Your Brain, you say that science in many ways is just another metaphor. Do you think there are dangers to people using neuroscience to legitimize their work?
LC: Well, sure. There’s a fellow, Daniel Amen, who does these SPECT scans of people and he’s been selling them for thousands of dollars for probably 20 years now. It’s hard to know whether any of his data has any meaning. All we know is he’s made a hell of a lot of money doing them. The danger is in selling things before you know that they have any legitimacy, so you have to watch out for snake oil salesmen just like you do when you’re buying carpets and used cars.
SR: So how do you recommend that someone like me goes about finding and learning about neuroscience in a way that’s helpful? How do I avoid the snake oil salesmen?
LC: It’s important to realize that knowing neuroscience doesn’t make you a good clinician—in fact it doesn’t make you any kind of clinician at all. So I would say for beginning therapists, it’s probably best not to pay too much attention to neuroscience.Learn a few things about it but focus on getting the best supervision you can in a recognized form of psychotherapy—psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral, family systems, etc. And avoid the passing fancy of all of the new therapies; every day there’s a new therapy with a new set of letters in front of it.

SR: Yeah there are so many different kinds of therapies these days.
LC: Try to learn something that isn’t just a fad, because the fads—I’ve watched hundreds of them come and go over my years. But if you cleave to psychodynamic training and cleave to cognitive behavioral, Gestalt, family systems training—those are the things that you can hang your hat on. Then you can learn the fads to add to your tool box. The fads are very sexy and they create the illusion of understanding because they’ve got fancy terms and nice workbooks and such, but really you’re not a thinker when you’re doing those things, you’re more of a mechanic.Now neuroscience is sort of like a sidecar to conceptualization, but you’ve got to remember the motorcycle is the real tried and true way of thinking about clients. You know, what is a particular problem? What is mental distress or mental illness? Where does it come from developmentally and what are the tried and true ways of approaching it and treating it?

Every Therapy is Embedded in Culture

SR: Speaking of tried and true ways of thinking, you say in your book, “Psychotherapy is not a modern invention, but a relationship-based learning environment grounded in the history of our social brains. Thus the roots of psychotherapy go back to mother-child bonding, attachment to family and friends, and the guidance of wise elders.” My question is, where do you think psychotherapy fits in to the context of healing traditions that have been around for millennia?
LC: Well, I think one thing that seems to be different over the last hundred years in psychotherapy is a kind of structured recognition of the fact that the therapist is imperfect and contributes in a lot of different ways to the problems. The tradition of wise elders was one of an authoritarian stance: This is the truth and I’ll take you on this journey with me to change you into my likeness. To whatever degree psychotherapy has evolved past that has to do with the self-analysis of the therapist and the recognition that whatever pathology exists in the relationship between client and therapist, some—hopefully not the majority, but some—pathology in the relationship comes from the therapist.That type of recognition is a step forward. There are probably some steps backward too. Often psychotherapy is ahistorical and acultural—or at least tries to be—but every therapy is embedded in culture. There is a kind of pretense about an objective scientific stance that is just a fantasy. So in some ways, wise elders in a tribal context with a long history are probably advantageous for some people as compared to psychotherapy.

SR: I was flipping through the index of your book and noticed the word “culture” appears exactly once, though you do talk about the wisdom of the ancients, about Buddhism and Confucianism and some of the Indian traditions. Seems to me that once we start relying on these kind of generalized, evolutionary, and biological forces as explanations for things, there’s a risk of painting people’s lived experience with a pretty broad brush. What’s your take on the importance of culture as it relates to neuroscience and psychotherapy?
LC: From an evolutionary perspective, a basic principle is biodiversity, and culture is too blunt an instrument to understand people because there are so many differences within culture. I think in terms of every individual being an experiment of nature. Every family is a culture in and of itself, and the more different someone’s cultural background is from mine, the more there is for me to learn. I think that culture needs to be interwoven into every sentence of every book, not just included in some special chapter of a book.
SR: From my point of view, many of these older cultural practices have been repackaged and rebranded as psychotherapy theories and techniques. The “mindfulness revolution” and transcendental meditation are based on ancient cultural traditions, but they are marketed as if they are especially effective because they are “new” and “evidence-based.” What is your stance on that?
LC: Having studied religion and philosophy and Sanskrit starting back when I was in college in the 70s, the self-awareness of meditation has been part my worldview since long before it became a cottage industry. But even back then there was the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the Beatles, and it was coming into the cultural context. Now people have figured out how to package it as a way to sell more therapy, which isn’t all bad, but runs the risk of becoming “the answer.”

I think we’re in a race between global destruction and global consciousness, so we’ll see who gets to the finish line first.

What I’ve been hoping for since I first discovered Buddhism in the 1960s, is that as the world gets smaller and as people from different cultures communicate more, the wisdom of the ancient Eastern philosophies will be interwoven with Western technology and we’ll come to some higher level synthesis of understanding and consciousness. I think we’re in a race between global destruction and global consciousness, so we’ll see who gets to the finish line first.

SR: Can you say more about that?
LC: Well, it’s a slow evolutionary process for the types of awareness that people four or five thousand years ago discovered in India and Tibet, in China, in Japan, to penetrate Western culture. The Western world view is so different—for so many people it’s almost impossible to conceptualize an internal world; everything is external. Everything is about creation, growth, and, in a more destructive sense, conquering and genocide.So there are forces of destruction—of each other and of the planet—on the one hand and then there are the forces of consciousness and wholeness and a sense of oneness of the species on the other. So will we understand that we’re all brothers and sisters on a spaceship before we destroy the spaceship?

“There only needs to be a piece of you that’s a psychologist”

SR: How can psychotherapy play a positive role in this race you’re talking about? Or psychotherapy as we know it in the Western world?
LC: Well, one of the problems with psychotherapy as I see it is that psychotherapists tend to be sort of passive—they retreat from the world of leadership and create very insulated relationships in their consulting rooms. But for the field of psychotherapy to have any impact, it has to be expressed politically and socially. The types of ideas and theories that we’ve researched and studied, like the importance of early child rearing, self-awareness, authoritarian personalities, positive psychology and so much else, need to become part of political discourse both to elevate it and also have an impact on how resources are distributed.

One of the problems with psychotherapy as I see it is that psychotherapists tend to be sort of passive—they retreat from the world of leadership and create very insulated relationships in their consulting rooms.

Evolution is a slow, meandering process. All you have to do is watch the Republican debates to see that. It reminds me of junior high school in the Bronx in New York where we used to engage in chop fights, which was all about humiliating the manhood of other guys just to get a one-up. It doesn’t make me optimistic about the evolution of consciousness, but we’ll see what happens.

SR: I want to move onto something you said in your preface that I liked a lot: “Like monks and soldiers, therapists of all denominations assume that God is on their side.” What do you think are the limitations of psychotherapy and where does it come up short against the human condition, cultural walls or seemingly immovable, systemic injustice? In other words, when do we have to admit that psychotherapy is just not helpful or effective?

LC: The risk with psychology and psychotherapy is that it can lean too much in the direction of helping people tolerate rather than fight against oppression. Self-awareness and self-compassion are crucial experiences and skills that we foster as psychotherapists, but there needs to be a balance there. You can’t become too much of a psychologist. There only needs to be a piece of you that’s a psychologist and there’s another piece of you that has to be willing to go out and fight for systemic change.

As I said before, psychologists tend to watch from the sidelines, and that’s why as a field it has relatively little impact. In fact, the profession gets a lot of bad press because there are plenty of famous psychologists who do staggeringly immoral and unethical things. They are the basis of the cartoon version of the therapist nodding their head and going, “uh huh.”

SR: You talk about psychology as being an essentially solitary profession. Are there people you can think of who aren’t standing on the sidelines?
LC: Psychologists you mean?
SR: Yeah, psychologists.
LC: No. Can you?
SR: Not off the top of my head.
LC: Psychologists are really good at telling other people they should do something. It’s sort of like life by proxy.
SR: Indeed.
LC: Another problem in psychotherapy is a lack of appreciation or respect for anger; anger is always something you’re supposed to manage. Or you’re supposed to learn how to behave appropriately in society, but that’s not always an appropriate response, especially if you’re a member of an oppressed group. It’s really important sometimes to go on picket lines and carry bricks and defend yourself and make a lot of noise.I very much respect the Black Lives Matter movement and I watch them in these Trump rallies, and they’re getting pushed around. It breaks my heart because it reminds me of a lot of bad memories from childhood during the Civil Rights Movement. And I’m sure you’ve seen pictures too of what happened in India with the British, of people being hosed and slaughtered. There’s a tendency in human behavior to objectify differences and we really need to fight against and not tolerate that. I’m hoping that, given that Trump is consolidating and activating the anger of people in this culture against immigrants and foreigners and God knows what else, that it also energizes the liberal base and brings out a new progressive movement as well.

SR: Absolutely, but this idea of psychologists carrying bricks and taking up arms seems really at odds to me with this image we have of psychologists as dispassionate observers, people who are sitting in their therapy chairs saying, “uh huh.”My interests lie in political action as well and I do remember, at least from my dad’s generation and my grandfather’s generation, thinking about British rule and the independence movement in India and the idea of people really taking a stand. But that doesn’t seem like something psychologists really do. Even in the room with a client, we’re not taught to take a stance on things, you know?

LC: In fact it’s the opposite. Everything that we believe is interpreted as countertransference and non-neutral. It creates a real rift in people. It’s hard to imagine that a lot of younger psychologists with any sort of a political drive would be attracted to psychology. It will continue to attract people who want to stay on the sidelines in the world or avoid the conflict.
SR: How is that going to change?
LC: In truth I don’t know. In the 60s we had something called community psychology, which was very radical at the time and which still exists, but it’s not prominent at all anymore. One of the main focuses of community psychology was to identify those people in the community or in the tribe that other people went to for assistance—people like hairdressers and bartenders and cab drivers. These are the people that folks in trouble tended to talk to, so community psychology emphasized educating people in the community that were sort of hubs of interaction. The field has gotten so much more insular since then.

Transitioning From a Beta to an Alpha

SR: I want to go back to something you said about anger that intrigued me. I’m just thinking back to discussions and supervision I’ve had in training, and whenever anger comes up, you’re told there’s something “behind” the anger. You know, there’s shame behind the anger, or sadness behind the anger. How do you feel about anger as just a primary kind of emotion? And do you think it has value both for the therapist and for the client?
LC: If you’re going to become empowered, if you’re going to transition from a beta to an alpha in your life, you really need to be able to get back in touch with your anger because it can be very propulsive, very helpful in life. It evolved along with caretaking and nurturing because it’s not just necessary to feed and nurture babies, but to protect them.Anger is the only left-hemisphere emotion that we consider negative, but anger is a social emotion, unlike rage. It can be engaging, relational, constructive. In order to combat the social programming that leads to shame, we have to get at least somewhat angry—at both the voices in our head and out in the world that shame us, disempower us, keep us from speaking up.

When I think of somebody like Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr., I think of the courage it took to walk into angry crowds. It’s so moving to me and such a powerful act. We can’t just be passive about these voices in our head and in society. We have to get angry because our anger and our assertiveness and our power are all interconnected. If you give up your anger, you give up your power.

SR: Agreed. Tell me a little bit about your idea of the social synapse.
LC: The more I studied different physiologies, social psychologies, organisms, the more I realized that there is a very complex highway of information that connects us via pupil dilation and facial expression and body posture and tone of voice, and probably a hundred things that we haven’t even discovered yet.What we’re doing in psychotherapy, and in any relationship where we’re trying to be soothing and supportive and nurturant, is connecting across the synapse between you and someone else. You’re trying to create a synergy between the two of you and have an effect on their internal biochemistry that enhances their physical health, their brain development, their learning. If you’ve ever been with a really good teacher, you know that in part because you feel a lot smarter because you’re connecting with someone who’s stimulating your brain to work better. If you’re with a bad teacher, you feel dumber, and you get pissed off and angry. And there are not a lot of good teachers out there so you’ve got to cleave to the good ones.

But also there’s a different chemistry between different people. Someone who’s a good teacher for one person may not be a good one for another. Same thing with therapists. Every therapeutic relationship creates a new organism—a dyadic field— and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. The chemistry part we often don’t have any control over.

SR: Going back to the brain and neuroscience, where do you think we are in right now in the field and where are we headed?
LC: Well, we’re all over the place in brain science, but there is a great deal of focus right now on genetics. In other words, looking at the relationship between experience and interactions and how the molecular level of the brain gets constructed and changes over time in relation to the others and the environment. I think that the translation of parenting and relationships in psychotherapy into actual protein synthesis and brain building is an incredibly complicated but very important paradigm shift that is going to be playing out probably over the next century at least as we uncover those things.Another shift in neuroscience is getting past the phrenology of looking at individual brain regions related to specific tasks and starting to look at these new technologies that measure brain connectivity. In other words, how do different areas connect to regulate each other and synergize? The next step will be figuring out how two or more brains interact and stimulate each other.

I don’t know where the technology to research that is going to come from but I think it’s on the horizon. We’ve got to get beyond thinking about brains as individual organs and think about how they weave into relational matrices so we can understand human connection and have a scientific view for the types of things that Buddhists and Hindu meditators and Tibetan scholars have been thinking about for the last several thousand years or so.

Why Does Neuroscience Matter?

SR: How would you explain to an existential psychotherapist why these advances in technology and in brain science are at all important to what they do?
LC: I don’t know if they are important to what they do. I don’t think neuroscience is more important than Buddhism—it’s basically just another narrative.
SR: Interesting.
LC: It’s just another way of looking at things. Think about when you’re at a museum looking at an exhibit and you’re walking around it trying to experience it and appreciate it from a number of different angles.That’s pretty much what reality is. We walk around it and we have these different ways of thinking about it and explaining it that are partially satisfying and partially unsatisfying. Buddhism is incredibly satisfying a lot of the time and very unsatisfying some of the time. So when you get bored with one way of looking, you want to look at something in a different way. For me it’s interesting to combine and integrate different perspectives but I don’t think that you have to subjugate one to the other.

In the 1950s Carl Rogers was talking about how to create a healing relationship. Fast forward 65 years and now neuroscience is discovering pretty much what Rogers was talking about. Am I better off talking about it from that perspective than listening to Carl Rogers? I don’t know. But it makes me appreciate what Rogers says even more and in a deeper way when I can see it from this scientific perspective.

SR: That makes sense.
LC: If Buddha were alive, he’d say, “Of course,” right? “There’s 5,000 research studies you did, but all you needed to do was read the Sutra and you would have figured it out.”But I think it’s interesting to just keep learning about life from as many points of view as possible. When have your read enough novels?

Each novel you read is a new way of capturing the universe, and they’re entertaining and stimulating and make you feel human. I feel the same way about the sciences, which is why I love reading E.O. Wilson’s work on ants, because I learn a lot about humans by reading about ants. So many things we do are very ant-like. Plus, ants are interesting.

Nobody Has the Answer

SR: Ants are very interesting. That’s a great way to look at it and I completely agree. Moving away from neuroscience for a moment, I’m curious about how your clinical work has changed over the years.
LC: It’s changed constantly. When I started as a student of pastoral counseling at the Harvard Divinity School, Carl Rogers was one of my teachers, so my first real training was Rogerian. The reason I got interested in counseling in the first place was reading Fritz Perls’ Gestalt Therapy. Then when I ended up at UCLA I realized you have to learn cognitive behavioral therapy whether you like it or not. So I was trained in that. I did a couple of years at a family therapy institute in Westwood in L.A. My supervisors were psychodynamic and my therapist at the time was a Jungian, and then I had a couple of other therapists who were psychodynamic and Gestalt.I was working with people who had been severely traumatized as kids, so I got interested in neuroscience through a study of memory, trying to figure out what the heck was going with the memories of people who’d suffered severe trauma.

Since then, my heart is more in the object relations world, I think mostly because it matches my personality and the type of relationships I like to create with people. But I’ve woven in neuroscience, attachment theory, a bit of EMDR, some meditation and self-awareness exercises. It’s a hodgepodge of all the different things that I’ve learned, but I don’t really feel like I’ve got a hammer and everybody who comes in is a nail. It’s more like I’ve got a toolbox of 30 or 40 years of things that I’ve been collecting and I try to figure out how to match as best I can to the needs and the interests of the client.

SR: Is there a certain population or certain pathologies that you’ve been working with more lately or that you’re more interested in?
LC: Not really. My practice is pretty general and I like to keep it that way. I don’t really like to see the same problem over and over again. I always think of psychotherapy as kind of like a collaborative research project. People come in and we work together to figure out what’s going on—how did it arise? Is there any hope of making it better? I really like having problems I haven’t dealt with before.
SR: What do you wish you’d known as a beginning clinician?
LC: When I started, I was looking for an answer and I wanted to know who had the answer. So

I tried to become a disciple of one person or another person. It took me quite a while to realize nobody has the answer. Everybody has a little piece of it.

And what I’ve got to do is just learn the best I can and then sacrifice and move on. This is a very ancient Rig Veda philosophy—every day you wake up, you sacrifice the day before, you move on, you create a new reality.

Had I understood this, I would have spent a lot less time worrying about finding the truth and being acceptable to whatever godhead I happened to run into at the moment. I think idolatry is the problem. Idolatry and objectification.

SR: It’s hard to avoid being exposed to that as a student. At least in my experience, in every new class you’re exposed to something people think is the answer, the best way to look at things.
LC: In my experience, the degree to which someone is enthusiastic and adamant about having “the answer” usually reflects the degree of insecurity they have and their lack of ability to tolerate their own ignorance. If we’ve learned anything, especially when it comes to diversity, it’s that we have to embrace our ignorance and be curious as opposed to leading with certainty.Jacob Bronowski was a physicist who died about 20 years ago, but he did this wonderful documentary about visiting Auschwitz, where his whole family was slaughtered. He waded into the mud behind the crematory and grabbed a handful of mud, realizing that his ancestors were part of this soil, and said, “This is what happens when we’re certain.”

Certainty leads to ideological beliefs that supersede humanity. At a less dramatic level, we get so enamored with our philosophies and our therapeutic beliefs that we miss our clients because we’re so convinced that we’ve got to convince them we’re right about the things we believe should be true.

SR: So last question here; where do you think the field as a whole is going?
LC: Well, I don’t think mental distress is going anywhere. I think that more and more people are going to be having psychological problems as society and civilization become increasingly crazy. No matter how many therapists the schools pump out, the world is creating plenty of suffering, so there will always be a need for therapy.And though there will always be therapists trying to create revolutionary new therapies with great acronyms, I think that the tried and true methods will remain strong and stay strong because they’re tapping into fundamental constructs in human experience—the need to connect with other people, to be able to leverage our thinking to modify our brains, to ask questions about ultimate meaning and existence.

Where the field is going to have to upgrade its sophistication and quality is in the areas of like pharmacology, epigenetics, psychoneuroimmunology, diet. All of the actual mechanisms that create and sustain our brains will have to become part of the dialogue about how we help people sustain and maintain health. This might just be my Eastern philosophy bias, but we’ll probably be moving in the direction of more holistic, integrated thinking and treatment—not just combining East and West, but integrating scientific discoveries into our case conceptualizations and treatments.

Finally, I hope that psychology becomes more integrated with education. I have a book series that I’m editing for W.W. Norton which is on the social neuroscience of education, and we’re pushing to have psychologists, neurologists, neuroscientists and educators communicate more so that the things we’re learning can be integrated into each field.

SR: Well that seems like a great place to end. Thank you so much for taking the time to share a bit about your work and your life with the readers of psychotherapy.net.
LC: It was a pleasure, thank you.

Losing Faith: Arguing for a New Way to Think About Therapy

The Taxi Ride

When I finally made my way to the curb, my taxi was nowhere to be found. Luckily, a group of attendees kindly offered to let me squeeze into the back seat of their already overly cramped cab. I jumped in and we sped off, weaving our way through downtown traffic to Washington Reagan Airport.

From the lively conversation, I surmised that the people in the cab worked together or at least knew one another. I wasn’t paying close attention to what was being said—still thinking about whether or not I would catch my flight—but their sense of enthusiasm was so infectious that to not listen quickly became a chore.

The topic was the diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) that had enjoyed a renaissance of popular and professional interest in the wake of 9-11. A new theory about the condition had been presented in one of the breakout sessions at the symposium. Something about how humans deal with trauma differently to animals and how this accounted for why our species developed PTSD and animals did not.

“Yeah,” one of the people went on to explain, “The presenter showed these excerpts from National Geographic films. You know, animals in Africa, on the Serengeti and stuff….” Eager to participate, another chimed in before the first could finish his thought, “Most of those animals are under constant threat by larger predators. But, even though they are hunted and chased relentlessly they don’t get post-traumatic stress disorder!”

Something about that last statement piqued my attention. I was feeling skeptical already and wondered, how do they, or the workshop leader for that matter, know that animals did or did not have PTSD? Anyone familiar with the literature knows that the diagnosis of the disorder in humans is tricky, with agreement between clinicians notoriously low. How could it be otherwise? There are 175 combinations of symptoms by which PTSD can be diagnosed. In fact, using the DSM criteria, it is possible for two people who have no symptoms in common to receive the same diagnosis!

“No, they don’t,” the first continued butting his way back into the conversation, “Because they shake it off.”

“Shake it off?” one of the others asked without a hint of skepticism in her voice.

“Yeah, they don’t repress their natural physiological response to traumatizing events the way we humans have been conditioned to.”

I could feel myself becoming agitated. “Here we go again, I mused, that old Freudian bogeyman, repression, dug up and represented in different words.” It was easy to see that I was the odd man out.

My mind raced back to lazy Sunday afternoons spent with my family watching Mutual of Omaha’s Wild Kingdom. I wondered, Had none of these people ever watched that program? Most of the animals on that and every other nature show I’d ever seen were so jittery from life on the plains it made me want to take medication.

Heads up and heads down, constantly checking, first here and then there, always on the lookout for the thing that might eat them. If anyone on the planet suffered from PTSD, it was those animals.

I turned back to the window, distracted by my inability to recall the name of the host of Wild Kingdom.

“So, what did he say you should do?” one of the group asked, and the second speaker began describing the treatment. To me, it sounded like a variation of the old abreaction technique. You know, helping people “discharge strangulated affects” by having them revisit unresolved traumas. The only difference was the shaking that followed the recollection or reliving of a traumatic event.

At this point, I started shaking—my head that is, from left to right, and back again. No, no, no, no, NO, I was thinking to myself with each turn. And if my response was any indication, it was clear that the “shaking” theory was bogus. I certainly didn’t feel any better. In fact, I was feeling more agitated.

Are you all daft? I wanted to scream. Use your heads, think critically for Heaven’s sake! Instead, looking out the window of the cab, I started imagining these well-intentioned practitioners trying out this new technique. Let me see if I understand your new approach, the sarcasm now dripping from my thoughts, you are working on a disorder that no one can diagnose with any reliability, using a method for which there is no evidence of effectiveness, based on an animal analog that in all likelihood does not happen in nature, and organized around an old Freudian idea that was discredited years ago. I was on a roll now, the invective flowing out of me. Hmm. Sounds great. Sounds like the history of “psycho” therapy…a never ending list of ephemeral fads applied to unspecified problems with unpredictable outcomes for which rigorous training is required. Great. Give it a go.

The intensity of my reaction took me by surprise. What was the matter with me? I wondered. It’s not as if I’d never heard such things before. Our field was full of this stuff: lay on this couch, talk to an empty chair, sit on this person’s lap, watch my finger wave back and forth, or one of my own contributions to the kooky cacophony, “Pretend a miracle happens….”

Where I was cynical, however, my fellow travelers were inspired. In response to any objection I might raise, I could hear them say, Well, maybe you just don’t work with enough of these people to see the value of the treatment. Then they would continue with the typical citation of the evidence used by clinicians to mute all such criticism: the much vaunted “personal experience.” Have you tried it? I did, and it works. At least that had been my experience whenever I made my doubts public.

We pulled up to the curb at the airport. After paying my fare, I muttered a quick “Thank you,” and bolted for the terminal. Sure, my connection was tight but I also wanted to escape. Believe me, it was nothing personal. Of late, I’d been avoiding conversations about therapy whenever I could.

The Epiphany

Before I knew it the pilot was announcing our final approach into O’Hare. And that’s when it hit me.

I could feel my chest tighten at the thought. I wasn’t burned out, depressed, or in the grips of a midlife crisis. It was something much worse. I’d lost my faith. I no longer believed in therapy….

The weeks and months following my epiphany were particularly bleak.

If I hadn’t been depressed before, I was certainly on the verge now. I’d been in love with the field. Now, the passion and commitment that had sustained me for nearly two decades of work as a therapist was gone. I had no energy, no zest. I felt completely adrift, purposeless.

Looking Back, Moving Forward

“Just stick with it,” my clinical supervisor, Bern Vetter, would say whenever I voiced my uncertainty, “everybody feels that way in the beginning.” At that point in my career the little experience I had made it abundantly clear that the practice of psychotherapy was a highly nuanced and complicated affair, requiring years of dedication and study to master. In short, it was not a profession for the impatient. The learning curve was long and steep. Given time, experience and, of course, further training, I had faith that the mountain could be scaled. Once on top, I’d be able to reach out with confidence and offer a helping hand to those struggling on their way up to a better, happier and more fulfilling life.

Looking back, I don’t believe my work as a beginning therapist was necessarily bad. I made a concerted effort to do all the appropriate therapist-like things I’d been taught—maintaining an “open” posture, reflecting feelings, avoiding advice giving, and so on.

I arranged my office to resemble those of experienced therapists I knew and admired, adding warmth and ambiance to the room.

For their part, my clients didn’t complain. Still, I wondered, Could they tell that I didn’t really know what I was doing? Did other therapists feel this way? If so, then why the hell didn’t they talk about it? Was their seeming self-assurance merely a confidence game? If not, then what was the matter with me? Why didn’t I get "it" the way others seemed to?

Bern would always counter, “This is a time to experiment,” in a reassuring voice. “Try some things on for size, see what fits, what the client likes and doesn’t like. In time, it’ll come.” I appreciated Bern’s patience and openness as my experience with other therapists wasn’t always as sympathetic.

I continued to explore, reading books and combing through the research literature. I also went to see everybody who was anybody on the lecture circuit: Barber, Ellis, Haley, Satir, Minuchin, Meichenbaum, Yalom, and Zeig—the entire therapeutic alphabet. As hard as I tried, however, my own work never seemed to equal that of these clinicians. Sometimes what I learned worked and other times it did not. On a few occasions, the new stuff I tried ended in unmitigated disaster.

Why wasn’t I getting “it” the way others—my co-workers, supervisors, book authors and workshop presenters—appeared to? Having always had a strong work ethic, I resolved to continue, reasoning that persistence would, as it often had in my life, eventually win the day. I still had faith.

I thought I’d died and gone to heaven when, shortly out of graduate school, I landed a job at the Brief Family Therapy Center (BFTC) in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I’d been dreaming about working at the small, inner-city clinic ever since I read Steve de Shazer’s Keys to Solution in Brief Therapy in one of the supervision groups I’d attended. In the first chapter of that book, de Shazer described being “plagued” by the same question I struggled with, “how do you know what to do?” Seeking to answer that question was his stated raison d’etre, the focus of his career and work at the center. I couldn’t imagine a better workplace.

Forget what you know or have come to believe about solution-focused therapy. The mechanical version that exists today bears precious little resemblance to the work being done at the time I joined the staff. On the contrary, the process at BFTC was fluid and dynamic, the atmosphere positively electric. We spent hours watching each other’s work, staying late most evenings, and even showing up on the weekends to record, review and discuss sessions.

As time passed, the confidence I had long sought gradually began to build. I thought about my old supervisor, Bern. Now I recognized, or thought at least, he’d been right all along. With experience, it’d become easier to see patterns in the process, markers that helped me to understand what was going on, told me what would be best to say and do. Together with Insoo Berg, the co-director of BFTC, I even wrote about what I had learned in my first book, Working with the Problem Drinker: A Solution-Focused Approach. In what would become a pattern for me, I used the writing process to “work through” and clarify my feelings about and understanding of the work.

I can still remember one of the first cases I watched at the Center. Brother Joel, a capuchin living and working with the downtrodden in Milwaukee, brought a thirty-something homeless man in for a session. The guy was so high that several team members and I actually had to come out from behind the one-way mirror and walk him around the room in order to keep him awake. All the while, Insoo continued to work, skillfully and patiently weaving a therapeutic conversation into the client’s brief moments of lucidity.

Two years later, the man returned for a follow up interview. Honestly, we didn’t even recognize him. Gone were the dirty and disheveled clothes, the smell and grime of the streets. In their place was a clean-shaven, even dapper looking, businessman. We learned that he was in a committed relationship and planning to marry in the near future. He was now the owner of a small business, had a home, his own car, and money in the bank. I can remember thinking that our former client was, in many respects, better off than me. And, all in a handful of sessions!

With experiences like these a regular occurrence, you can imagine my surprise when, in 1992, two independent studies failed to provide much empirical support for the work we’d been doing. Mind you, the reports did not say we were ineffective, merely that we were no more effective than any other group or treatment approach. Adding insult to injury, the same studies showed that we were not any more efficient either. In other words, we accomplished what we had in the same amount of time it took everyone else—a major blow, you can imagine, for a group known around the world as the Brief Family Therapy Center.

The bad news continued. “In depth interviews with our successful clients revealed that the therapeutic map we’d spent so much time developing—including interviewing strategies, techniques, and end of session homework assignments and interventions—mattered little in terms of outcome.” Indeed, although not reported in the published study, the only time our clients appeared to remember the technical aspects of our work was when they were experienced as intrusive and ineffective!

Needless to say, the sense of assurance that had been building since I’d joined the team at the Center was badly shaken. For months, I struggled to make sense of the results. The challenge, or so it felt to me at the time, was not to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water.

I vowed not to let the results obscure the bigger picture. What therapists did worked. I’d seen it myself on numerous occasions. My faith in the process of therapy was not misplaced. The problem was that the particular way we worked appeared to have little or nothing to do with our effectiveness.

In this regard, the two studies at BFTC had left me far from clueless about the ingredients of successful therapy. High on the list of strong predictors of a good outcome were the quality of the therapeutic relationship, the strengths and resources of the client, and the person of the therapist. The latter finding was particularly interesting. Despite the fact that all of the therapists at the center were practicing the same approach, outcomes varied considerably and consistently from one therapist to another. Most surprising of all, the two most effective therapists at the clinic were graduate students!

Revisiting Old Ground

Writing on this very subject back in 1936, Saul Rosenzweig, a psychologist in the same graduating class at Harvard as B.F. Skinner, suggested that the similarities rather than the differences between competing treatment models accounted for their effectiveness. Being a Lewis Carroll scholar, he labeled his findings, “The dodo bird verdict,” borrowing a line from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland that reads, “All have won and therefore all deserve prizes.”

Picking up where Rosenzweig left off, Jerome Frank argued in 1963 in his highly influential book, Persuasion and Healing: A Comparative Study of Psychotherapy, that Western therapies worked in precisely the same way and for the same reasons as healing rites across a variety of cultures. Whether practicing as a licensed therapist in Milwaukee or a shaman in the jungles of Papua, New Guinea, healers inspired hope, giving people plausible explanations for their pain and rituals to ease their suffering.

By the 1980’s, the quest to identify a group of common factors underlying effective psychotherapy had come full circle. Based on forty years of data, researcher Michael J. Lambert identified and even estimated the contribution of four pantheoretical contributors to success. As we’d found in the studies at BFTC, the therapeutic relationship and client emerged as large contributors to success—accounting for a stunning 70% of the variance in treatment outcome.

Coming in last place—tied for insignificance with placebo factors—was the particular model or technique a therapist happened to use, contributing a paltry 15%.

Early in my training, I’d been exposed to and dismissed the research on the common factors view for a number of reasons. First, it wasn’t sexy. After all, how stimulating is the idea that all models work equally well and for essentially the same reasons? What about transference? The Oedipal complex? Denial? What about defense mechanisms, insight, family structure, systems theory, double binds, indirect suggestions, paradox, self-disclosure, the DSM, confrontation, empathy, congruence, getting in touch with your feelings, talking to an empty chair, dysfunctional thoughts, self sabotage, and the biochemical imbalance? What about all those important things they taught me in school?

Being cast as our culture’s equivalent to a shaman was another reason for dismissing the common factors perspective. Sure, I knew there were those in the field who readily identified their work with native forms of healing, but I didn’t see these people accepting chickens in lieu of cash for their services.

No sir, they were right there alongside all the other therapists, trading on their professional credentials, and filling in their forms in order to receive insurance reimbursement. Anyway, I was a scientist. I’d been to college and I was going to graduate school. When I finished, my diploma would read “Doctor,” not witch doctor.

With each of my professors committed to one model or another—eclecticism was especially disdained—I’d quickly forgotten about the research supporting the common factors. Yet, there I was, some nine years after starting graduate school and three years post PhD, feeling a little like a kid who has just learned that his parents bought and placed all those presents under the Christmas tree. Sure, the end results were the same but Santa was dead, better said a fiction. In short, there simply was no magic in the method, no missing ingredient, no right way to do therapy.

The Comfort of Companions

We talked about the problems and challenges facing the field, including the rapid proliferation of new methods and techniques, claims about the effectiveness of particular approaches, and the ever-widening number of behaviors and concerns cast as problems requiring treatment. We also talked about the field’s flagging fortunes. By this time, many therapists were feeling the pinch, struggling to make ends meet. The golden age of reimbursement had vaporized in the mushroom cloud of managed care. As a result, psychotherapists were fast becoming what Nicholas Cummings had predicted nearly a decade earlier, that is “poorly paid and little respected employees of giant healthcare corporations.”

The public’s appetite for mental health services also appeared to be changing. For example, the self-help section at local bookstores—once jammed with latte-sipping, self-help junkies—suddenly dwindled, within a short period going from several aisles to one frequently disorganized and poorly stocked shelf. Meanwhile, average Americans were trading away their mental health benefits at alarming rates during contract negotiations with employers.

Apparently, change in the pocket is worth two therapists in the bush. In relatively short measure, the discussion shifted. We were not cynics. We were pragmatists who believed in therapy, so we were talking about solutions. All agreed that the field did not need another model of therapy. Depending on how one counted, anywhere from 250 to 1,000 approaches already existed. What clinicians from differing therapeutic orientations might benefit from, we reasoned, was a way of speaking with each other about the critical ingredients—about what works—in helping relationships. Our different cultures and languages had left us Balkanized as a field, unable to share, fearful of crossing theoretical boundaries, even distrustful of one another.

Notes scribbled on a cocktail napkin turned into a flurry of articles and three books, including Escape from Babel, Psychotherapy with “Impossible” Cases, and The Heart and Soul of Change. To be sure, all were works in progress, as much statements about our development as clinicians, as they were summaries of the research about “what works in treatment.”

Using the common factors as a bridge between treatment approaches, we spelled out a basic vocabulary for “a unifying language for psychotherapy practice.” In essence, we were advocating for a kind of informed eclecticism. Rather than being dedicated to a single model or approach, we argued that therapists could avail themselves of any technique, strategy, or theory as long as it empowered one or more of common factors and, importantly, made sense to the client. With regard to the latter, the research was clear: therapy was much more likely to be successful when it was congruent with the client’s goals for treatment, ideas about how change occurs, and view of and hopes for the therapeutic relationship.

Our message apparently struck a chord with clinicians. The books sold very well. In fact, The Heart and Soul of Change became one of the publisher’s best selling volumes ever—going on to win the Menninger prize for scientific writing. Feedback at workshops was also positive—glowing even. Heady stuff.

On reflection, however, I decided that the response was not all that surprising. After all, figuring out how to use the knowledge and skills one had to meet the needs of individual clients was what practicing therapists did. If nothing else, it was good business practice.

In my own work, I was making a concerted effort to follow the advice we were giving to others: literally, to put the client in the driver’s seat of treatment. More than ever before, I worked hard at setting aside my own ideas and objectives, purposefully attempting to organize the treatment around the client’s goals and beliefs. I spent more time listening and less time talking or asking “purposeful” questions. I also made sure that the suggestions I gave, and any interventions I used, were derived from the interaction.

The Illusion of Progress

Of course, we’d hoped that presenting the factors as principles rather than mandates would circumvent the problem, providing therapists with a flexible framework for tailoring treatment to the needs of the individual client without creating yet another model of treatment. After all, the research showed that clinicians believe that their skill in selecting therapeutic techniques and applying them to the individual client is responsible for outcome. Unfortunately, the data indicate otherwise. Confidence in our ability to choose the right approach for a given client is simply misguided. Indeed, when combined with other studies showing little or no effect for training or experience on treatment outcome, the hope we’d felt at the outset of our work began to feel painfully naïve.

Around this time, I stumbled across an article I’d read a few years earlier while preparing to write Escape from Babel. A psychologist named Paul Clement had collected and published a quantitative analysis of outcomes from his 26 years of work in private practice. The results had alternately intrigued and frightened me. The good news was that 75% of his clients rated improved at the end of treatment, and quickly. The median number of sessions over the course of his long practice was 12. The bad news, however, was particularly bad in my opinion. In spite of believing—in fact “knowing” that he’d “gotten better and better over the years”—the cold, hard fact of the matter was that he was no more effective at the end of his career than he’d been at the beginning.

At this point, I recognize some readers might be thinking, “Hey, Scott, don’t miss the big picture here! What Clement did with his clients not only worked, but also worked in a relatively short period. So what if this clinician did not improve over time?” Who can argue with success? However, if we are to move forward to better, more effective practices, we need to understand why therapy works. The devil or for that matter, the saint, is in the details. The tradition of the field to pile model upon model and technique upon technique, year after year, has not answered the question. It deceives all of us into believing, as did Clement, that we are getting better when in fact we are not. An illusion of progress, in the end, is hardly progress.

And then the cab ride. The lightening rod. The flashpoint. The final straw that broke this therapist’s back. Alas, it seemed that we therapists would believe almost anything. The “shaking treatment” notwithstanding, the entire history of our field was proof.

Fashions of the Field

Just as studies were beginning to show a high casualty rate among clients in some of these popular experiential treatments, the field’s interest in “letting it all hang out” was reigned in and zipped up. From feelings, the field switched to behaviors and thoughts, then to dysfunctional families. Skinner, Beck, Minuchin, Palazolli, and Beatty among others, became icons; systematic desensitization, confrontation of dysfunctional thoughts, and self-help groups the best practice. The process only continues, morphing most recently from the “decade of the brain,” into a “greatest hits of the field” version known as the “biopsychosocial” approach. The so-called “energy therapies” are all the rage; drugs plus evidence-based psychotherapies now considered the “brew that is true.”

With the speed of therapeutic “developments” rivaling changing skirt lengths and lapel widths on a French fashion runway, who could trust anything the field said? We were like the weather. If you didn’t like the way things were, all you needed to do was wait five minutes. Chances are we’d be saying something different. Remember the multiple personality disorder craze? Where have they all gone anyway?

I’d completed one of my first clinical placements at a hospital that had an entire wing of an inpatient unit dedicated to treating people with “Dissociative Disorders.” The “multiples” were coming out of the woodwork. It seemed like an epidemic with the average daily census at the unit exceeding the total number of cases reported in the literature over the last 100 years!

I could go on and on. In fact, all the way back to Benjamin Rush’s time more than 300 years ago. With the same aplomb that we modern helpers tout the benefits of passing fingers back and forth in front of peoples eyes at regular intervals—don’t forget the “cognitive weave” now or it won’t work—the experts of the day were reporting “significant improvement” and “a return to normal life” in the majority of sufferers tied to a wooden plank and spun into unconsciousness, or blindfolded and dropped unexpectedly through a trap door into a tank of freezing water. Of course, we’d like to think that we’re different, that we’ve come along way since then, are more advanced now. And yet, that has been the claim of every generation to come along. Simply put, it is an illusion. “The same research that proves therapy works shows no improvement in outcomes over the last 30 or so years.” In short, we keep inventing the wheel; each era framing the causes and cure within the popular language and science of the day.

More Placebo Than Panacea?

Initially, I was hesitant about sharing my experience with other clinicians. I’m glad I eventually did as I quickly learned I was not alone. A few were even more discouraged than I was. Others still believed in therapy, but had grown weary of the hype attached to it. To these experienced therapists, the field lacked a memory. The old and forgotten frequently passed as new and the new just wasn’t that different. For many, what had started out as much a calling as a vocation had in time become drudgery, just another job.

The Therapist’s View

Sadly, for all the competition, genuflecting, and moaning about what therapy is, precious little attention has been paid to the client’s experience. No one in the cab that day, for example, asked, or even considered, what a client might feel about shaking like a wild animal. Would it be humiliating? Degrading? Helpful? Or, just plain nonsensical? Neither was there any discussion of what the client wanted, what they might like. No, it was all about us. Now, we knew what to do, what they needed. Even all the recent talk about client strengths and collaborating with clients smacks of “us.” Again, we are in charge, this time liberating client strengths and deciding that collaboration is a good idea. In fact, that’s what my journey as a therapist had been about from the outset: me, me, me.

Frankly, shifting my attention, changing the focus of my search away from me and toward the client, is what kept me from abandoning the field.

Is Client Feedback the Key?

Our own work is based on two consistent findings from the research literature:

1. Clients’ ratings of the therapeutic relationship have a higher correlation with engagement in and outcome from psychotherapy, than the ratings of therapists;

2. A client’s subjective experience of change early in the treatment process is one of the best predictors of outcome between any pairing of client and therapist, or client and treatment program.

Given these results, we simply ask clients to complete two very brief, but formal scales at some point during each session—one, a measure of the client’s experience of change or progress between visits, the other an assessment of the relationship. The entire process takes about 2-3 minutes per visit.

At this point, we’ve collected client feedback on some 12,000 cases—significantly more when our data is combined with that of other researchers following a similar line of inquiry using different measures. Consistent with the results from previous studies, we’ve found that the particular approach a clinician employs makes no difference in terms of outcome, including medication. On the other hand, providing real time feedback to clinicians has had a dramatic effect. Over a six-month period, success rates skyrocketed, improving by 60%. More important, these results were obtained without training therapists in any new therapeutic modalities, treatment techniques, or diagnostic procedures. In fact, the individual clinicians were completely free to engage their individual clients in the manner they saw fit, limited only by their own creativity and ethics.

Two large healthcare companies have moved in this direction and have eliminated the “paper curtain” that has been drawn over modern clinical practice. All I can say is, “It’s about time,” as none of these time-consuming activities have any impact on either the quality or the outcome of treatment.

Other intriguing results emerged. Recall the study cited earlier about the superior outcomes of the two novice therapists at the Brief Family Therapy Center? Combing through our own data looking for factors accounting for success, we noticed dramatic differences in outcome between therapists. Most, by definition, were average. A smaller number consistently achieved better results and a handful accounted for a significant percentage of most of the negative outcomes.

Similar differences were observed between treatment settings. Clinics that were in every way comparable—same type and severity of cases, clientele with similar economic, cultural, and treatment backgrounds, staff with equivalent training and the like—differed significantly in terms of outcome. When it comes to psychological services, it appears that unlike medicine, “who” and “where” are much more important determinants of success than what treatment is being provided.

If you are wondering what accounts for the variation in outcome between therapists and treatment settings, you’re not alone.

We did too. Yet, after parsing the data in every conceivable way, we came up largely empty handed. We did notice that therapists who were the slowest to adopt and use the scales had the worst outcomes of the lot. If the feedback tools are viewed as a “hearing aid,” this may mean that such clinicians didn’t listen, in fact were not interested in listening to the client. One therapist claimed that his “unconditional empathic reception” made the forms redundant.

Truth is, however, we really do not know what accounts for the difference. And frankly, our clients, the consumers of therapeutic services, don’t care—not a wit. They just want to feel better. For them, outcome is all that matters. It’s what they are paying for.

Intriguingly, our experience, and that of other researchers such as Michael Lambert and Jeb Brown, indicates that client feedback may be the key.

Does the client think that the therapeutic relationship is a good fit? Do they feel heard, understood, and respected? Does the treatment being offered make sense to them? Does the type, level, or amount of intervention feel right? Do any modifications made by the therapist in response to feedback make a difference in the client’s experience of the treatment? If so, is the client improving? If not, then who or where would be a better choice?

Let me say just say that I am not selling our scales. You can download the measures for free from our website; however, I’d be cautious about doing even that, as finding the “right” set of scales for a given context and population of clients requires time and experimentation.

The Future

It just doesn’t. Rather, one-by-one, clients and therapists pair up to see whether this relationship at this time and this place will, in the eyes of the client, make that all important difference. Sometimes it’ll sizzle, other times it’ll fizzle. Sometimes we’ll both want and be able to make the adjustments necessary to connect, other times we won’t. In some instances, a perfect match on paper will simply lack the chemistry needed to sustain it in reality. That is the nature of relationships. In the end, no amount of training or experience will enable us to “marry everyone we date.”

It’s true. I’ve lost my faith in therapy. Better said, my faith was misplaced from the outset. In part, because of my training, in part because of the broader “assembly line” culture in which we all live, I’d thought that day would come when, equipped with the tools of the trade, I’d finally be able to execute my job safely and effectively. We were like any other profession. Where physicians had a scalpel and prescription pad, we had insight and interventions; where a carpenter used a hammer and nails, I would use interviewing strategies, homework assignments, and the alliance to build my clients more satisfying lives. When that didn’t work, having never found solace in attributing treatment failures to client resistance or pathology, I would wonder as any good journeyman, what critical skill I lacked.

At length, I’ve come to accept that I cannot know ahead of time whether my interaction with a particular person on a given day in my office will result in a good outcome. Neither is all my knowhow, years of training and experience any guarantee. Our grand theories, clever techniques, even our best efforts to relate to and connect with others are empty—full of potential, yes, but devoid of any power or significance save that given to them by the person or people sitting opposite us in the consulting room. Thinking otherwise is not a demonstration of our faith, but actually conceit. The promises and potential notwithstanding, we simply have to start meeting and then ask, can they relate to us, to what we’re doing together at the moment? I know they will tell us. I now also have faith that, no matter the answer, the facts will always be friendly.

Acknowledgments

  The author wishes to thank his colleague and friend Mark A. Hubble, Ph.D. for his tireless and invaluable assistance in the preparation of this article. This article was originally published in Psychotherapy in Australia and is reproduced here by kind permission of the author.

References

Berg, I.K. & Miller, S.D., (1992) Working with the Problem Drinker: A Solution-Focused Approach, Norton.

Clement, P. W. (1994), Quantitative evaluation of more than 26 years of private practice. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 25 (2), 173-176.

Cummings, N.A. (1986). The dismantling of our health system: Strategies for the survival of psychological practice. American Psychologist, 41(4), 426-431.

Duncan, B.L., Hubble, M.A. & Miller, S.D., (1997), Psychotherapy with Impossible Cases: the Efficient Treatment of Therapy Veterans, Norton.

Fancher, R. T. (1995), Cultures of Healing: Correcting The Image Of American Mental Health Care: W H Freeman & Co.

W.H. Freeman. Frank, J. D. (1973), Persuasion and Healing: a Comparative Study of Psychotherapy: John Hopkins University Press.

Hubble, M. A.,Duncan, B.L. & Miller, S.D. (1999) The Heart and Soul of Change: What Works in Therapy: American Psychological Association.

Miller, S.D., Duncan, B.L. & Hubble, M.A., (1997) Escape from Babel: Norton.

Rosenzweig, S. (1936), Some implicit common factors in diverse methods in psychotherapy, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 6, 412-415.

 

Ronald Siegel on Integrating Mindfulness into Psychotherapy

Mindfulness is an Attitude Toward Experience

Deb Kory: Ronald Siegel, you’re an assistant professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School, a longtime student and teacher of mindfulness meditation, on the faculty of the Institute for Psychotherapy and Meditation and in private practice as a psychotherapist. You’ve done a great deal of work in bringing mindfulness to chronic pain patients and co-wrote a book called Back Sense: A Revolutionary Approach to Halting the Cycle of Chronic Back Pain as well as one for therapists, Sitting Together: Essential Skills for Mindfulness-based Psychotherapy. Most exciting of all—for us at least—you are the star of a new video we produced and are releasing this month called Integrating Mindfulness into Counseling and Psychotherapy, which features you doing mindfulness-based psychotherapy with real clients. In it, you go into great detail about the theory and practice of mindfulness-based psychotherapy, and also do four different therapy sessions with clients each presenting different issues. For our readers who haven’t yet had a chance to watch it, let’s start with the basics: What is mindfulness?
Ronald D. Siegel:
Mindfulness is an attitude toward experience—approaching any moment of our lives with both awareness and acceptance.
Mindfulness is an attitude toward experience—approaching any moment of our lives with both awareness and acceptance. Many people mistake mindfulness for mindfulness meditation, which is actually an umbrella term for many different practices that are designed to cultivate mindfulness, some of which involve following an object of awareness, like the breath, others of which involve things like loving kindness practice or equanimity practices. Those are practices designed to cultivate mindfulness, but mindfulness itself is an attitude toward moment-to-moment experience.
DK: Is it possible to practice mindfulness without having some experience with meditation?
RS: Absolutely. We all have moments in which we’re mindful, in which our minds and bodies show up for an experience. In fact, you might take a minute just now, while reading this, to think of a meaningful moment you’ve had. People will often say, the birth of a child or a graduation or getting married or a particular sunset or a conversation with a friend—all of those moments are essentially moments in which our attention is in the present. We’re accepting of what’s happening and we’re not lost in fantasies of the past that we call memories, nor fantasies of the future. We’re actually present.

We have many moments of this kind of mindful presence in the course of our lives, it’s just that once we start to be attentive to various states of consciousness, we notice that they’re the exception, rather than the rule. They’re relatively rare. So we do mindfulness practices to cultivate more of these moments in our lives.
DK: A sunset or being with a loved one—those are positive experiences. Do we tend to be more mindful in positive moments?
RS: I think instinctually we are, because when we’re experiencing painful moments, we recoil from them. We try to change them or get them to stop, and it takes some practice to open to unpleasant experiences as well. That is a central part of mindfulness practices, particularly in the therapeutic arena, where we understand one aspect of psychopathology as a tendency to resist experience, to try to make it stop.
DK: You are considered a mindfulness expert of sorts and you’re also a psychologist. Have you always brought mindfulness into your psychotherapy practice?
RS: Well, I’d like to challenge that designation first. I’m certainly not a poster child for the practice, given my experience with my own unruly mind. However, I first started practicing mindfulness back in high school, so I have been at it for some time and the principles associated with mindfulness have always infused my psychotherapy practice. In fact, when I learned more conventional psychotherapeutic techniques like cognitive behavior therapy, psychodynamic techniques, systems techniques, humanistic psychological techniques, it was always against the backdrop of Buddhist psychology, which is really the ground out of which mindfulness practices grew.

Our Relentless Tendency Toward "Selfing"

DK: How do therapists actually bring mindfulness into therapy?
RS:
Experienced psychotherapists are perfectly capable of having a full session, making reflective comments, insightful interpretations, all while planning a 12-course meal and having our attention quite divided.
Mindfulness can infuse psychotherapy on many different levels. It can infuse psychotherapy simply on the level of the practicing psychotherapist—what happens to us as the tool or instrument of treatment when we start practicing ourselves. For example, we start to actually show up in the room more fully. Experienced psychotherapists are perfectly capable of having a full session, making reflective comments, insightful interpretations, all while planning a 12-course meal and having our attention quite divided.
DK: Shhhh, that’s supposed to be a secret!
RS: Yeah, don’t tell people outside of the field! But the more we practice mindfulness, the more we’re able to be present. The other thing that happens is our capacity to be with and bear difficult emotions increases a great deal as we take up these practices. As therapists, we tend to hear about painful matters all day long, and sometimes it feels like too much, so we start to shut down our feelings; that can get in the way of being present. Mindfulness practices can help us to remain open in a fresh way to those painful feelings.

At the next level, there’s what we might call mindfulness-informed psychotherapy, which involves gaining insights into how the mind creates suffering for itself—through our own mindfulness practice and through the experience of longtime practitioners. As we gain some of those insights, we start to see certain patterns of mind that begin to inform our models of psychotherapy. For example, our relentless tendency toward “selfing”— creating narratives in our minds, starring me. These narratives are often quite distorted and create a tremendous amount of tension and suffering as we try to hold on to one self image and abort another.

As we see this through our own mindfulness practice, we start to notice that our clients or patients seem to be struggling with the same thing and we can help them with that by drawing upon our own insights and practices. Similarly, noticing the tendency to resist experience and how that multiplies difficulty. In psychotherapy, regardless of what sort of treatment we’re doing, we try to help people move toward, rather than away from, painful experience. To be more present, rather than to be lost in the thought stream involving narratives about the past and the future. That’s a mindfulness-informed psychotherapy.

Finally, there’s the option that comes out of our own experience of doing meditation and realizing that it helps us be more present, clear, have greater affect tolerance, more perspective, and more wisdom in on our lives, as well as more compassion for others. We think, “Hmm, maybe this could help my clients or patients to do this same. Perhaps I’ll teach it to some of them.” I should underscore that it’s about teaching it to some of them and having a map or an understanding of what sort of people might respond well to which sorts of mindfulness practices, at what stages in treatment or stages in life development. It’s not a one-size-fits-all practice.

When Mindfulness is Contraindicated

DK: Isn’t it actually contraindicated for some people?
RS: It’s absolutely contraindicated for many people. For example, for folks who have a lot of unresolved trauma, meaning they’ve experienced painful events in their lives that were too difficult to fully let into awareness at the time, so some aspect of them has been blocked. Maybe it’s the narrative historical memory of the event that’s blocked, maybe it’s the affect associated with the experience that’s blocked, but in some way, the experience has been disavowed. Folks like that, if they start doing certain mindfulness practices, such as spending time following the breath, tend to become quite overwhelmed with the rush of previously blocked material that comes into awareness.

The most problematic adverse effect is due to “derepression,” or the rushing into awareness of things which defensively have been held out of awareness.
A colleague of mine at Brown University named Willoughby Britain is doing a large study on the adverse effects of mindfulness practices, and the most problematic adverse effect is due to what she calls “derepression,” which is this rushing into awareness of things which defensively have been held out of awareness up until the start of mindfulness practices. So, much as we wouldn’t in psychotherapy start talking about material in a vivid way that someone’s not ready to talk about, we don’t want to start doing mindfulness practices that might be premature for various people.
DK: Is Britton against using mindfulness at all in psychotherapy?
RS: No, she’s a mindfulness practitioner herself, a research psychologist who is very enthusiastic about these things and is trying to map this territory. What many meditation teachers know from observation is that these adverse effects are much more likely when somebody attends an intensive silent retreat over the course of many days. But I’ve lead countless groups of psychotherapists through mindfulness practices that are as short as 20-30 minutes and it’s not unusual for one or two members of the group to become overwhelmed by the experience, either by the emotions that comes up or by bodily sensations that they tend to keep out of awareness with constant activity and entertainment. Many, many people are vulnerable to reconnecting with split-off contents.
DK: Let’s say someone comes in to see you for psychotherapy and they haven’t done much psychotherapy and they seem somewhat fragile in this way. How might you work with them?
RS: What’s interesting is there are many mindfulness practices that actually help to create a sense of safety, that create a sense of holding, as Winnicott would say. There are mindfulness practices that are akin to guided imagery or have aspects that feel like hypnosis, and if they’re done in the context of a trusting therapeutic relationship, bring the safety of the therapeutic alliance into the experience of the mindfulness practice.

There are also practices that ground us in the safe aspects of moment-to-moment experience. Walking meditation, where we’re feeling the sensations of the feet touching the ground, or listening meditation, where we’re listening to the sounds of nature or the ambient sounds in the city. Or nature meditation, where we’re looking at clouds and trees and sky. Those objects, since they tend to be safe for most people and bring our awareness away from the core of the body—away from where we tend to identify emotion as happening and toward a safe outer environment—can be very stabilizing. In fact, many of those practices are conventionally in trauma treatment called “grounding” practices because they create safety.

A Transtheoretical Mechanism

DK: It seems to me like everybody in our profession is talking about mindfulness these days. And approaches that I would assume are kind of strange bedfellows—CBT and mindfulness, psychoanalysis and mindfulness—are being paired together. If you go to Psychology Today and look at the profiles of psychotherapists, mindfulness is now a little bullet-point you can select as an orientation. I often wonder if most practitioners actually know what they’re talking about when they claim to work within a mindfulness framework. Like, are they saying that because they’ve been to a one-day meditation retreat or are they actually genuinely skilled in this approach?
RS: Well, I think it’s the same as with any psychotherapeutic model, theory or treatment system—people have very variable levels of understanding of what they’re doing. There are some people who have a great deal of wisdom, compassion and knowledge, who are saying that they’re doing mindfulness-oriented treatments, and there are other people who have a much more cursory exposure to it and may not have much depth of personal experience, but are intrigued by the idea or see it as a useful concept to identify with because other people may be interested in it and looking for a therapist who has some expertise.

But I do think that the field is still in its infancy in terms of really understanding the psychological, as well as the neurobiological, effects of these practices.
The field is still in its infancy in terms of really understanding the psychological, as well as the neurobiological, effects of these practices.
It’s quite a complex field, with many different practices, each one affecting the mind, the brain and the body in different ways and in different ways for different individuals. So while we can make some generalizations and have some guidelines, I think clinicians are best served to see it as very complex.

To the other point that you made about various forms of treatment being incongruent with mindfulness, I actually don’t think most are. I think of mindfulness as a transtheoretical mechanism that is operating in virtually any effective psychotherapy, because virtually any effective psychotherapy is going to help people step out of irrational, unhelpful cognitive patterns. Virtually any effective psychotherapy is going to help people connect with, feel and embrace an increasingly wide range of emotions. Virtually any psychotherapy is going to try to help people to engage more fully moment-to-moment in their lives. Since these are cardinal features of mindfulness practice, you can see them as being helpful in virtually any form of treatment.
DK: So you don’t see it as its own model or approach, but more an attitude and set of practices that are brought into all approaches.
RS: Very much so. While we might choose to actually teach a mindfulness practice to a given client or a patient in a given psychotherapy, that could be done within the context of a cognitive behavioral treatment, a systemic treatment, a humanistic treatment, a psychodynamic treatment and many others as well.

When graduate students come to me and say, “I want to get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Where should I go to school? What kind of training should I have?” I tend to implore them, “Please don’t get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Please get trained as a therapist, first and foremost. Have some understanding of the complexities of the human mind and body, some understanding of the myriad forms of psychopathology that we can get stuck in, a good introspective understanding of your own issues and conflicts and how they get in the way of relating to other people, and get supervision from people who’ve been working with troubled folks for a long time; once you develop that foundation, then integrate mindfulness practices into psychotherapy.”
When graduate students come to me and say, “I want to get trained as a mindfulness therapist. Where should I go to school? What kind of training should I have?” I tend to implore them, “Please don’t get trained as a mindfulness therapist.”


Of course it’s very valuable all along in your training to be doing your own mindfulness practice, to maybe even have a meditation teacher that you turn to for advice. Extremely useful. But if I had a friend who was struggling psychologically and I had the choice of either sending them to a brilliant mindfulness practitioner with very limited clinical training or a reasonably good clinician with reasonably good training as a clinician, but who’d never heard of mindfulness, I would send that person to the clinician in a heartbeat.

We Are Hardwired for Misery

DK: That’s an interesting point. I live in the Bay Area, and there are a lot of people who are really into Buddhism and mindfulness practices, who kind of eschew psychotherapy for more spiritual practices of meditation and yoga. But at the same time, I know that the Buddhist teachers around here are often imploring people to get therapy, to not do the “spiritual bypass” thing and avoid the work of getting into the muck of our psyches and how they impact our relationships and lives.
RS: Yes, absolutely. Jack Kornfield, who teaches at Spirit Rock in the Bay Area and has written many books on the subject of integrating psychology and Buddhism, recently wrote an article about highly experienced mindfulness meditation teachers, Buddhist teachers, who needed to go into psychotherapy. Ultimately, it’s not that one is better than the other—they are both pathways toward sanity. There are so many pathways to insanity that we actually need a variety of tools to work toward sanity.

I would argue that our natural evolutionarily determined predilection is to be quite nuts and quite miserable.
I would argue that our natural evolutionarily determined predilection is to be quite nuts and quite miserable. As Rick Hanson, who wrote Buddha’s Brain: The Practical Neuroscience of Happiness, Love & Wisdom, puts it, “Our brains are like velcro for bad experiences and teflon for good ones.” It’s a total setup for human misery, not to mention the hardwired tendency toward self-preservation that makes us concerned with how we rank compared to the other primates in our troop, which results in endless self-esteem concerns.

We are hardwired for misery. It is a good thing that we have both Western psychotherapeutic techniques that can help us untangle our narratives and get in touch with our feelings and do that in a healing, interpersonal context, and also have access to mindfulness and compassion practices that can help us transcend our personal story to see existential reality, to face the reality of change and death, to face the reality of sickness and old age, and develop sanity through those practices as well.
DK: As mindfulness practices are becoming more mainstream in the psychotherapy community and the medical community, it’s also becoming more secularized. People might go to their primary care physician and be prescribed a mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) class for high blood pressure, and never even hear the word “Buddhism.” Is there a downside to that?
RS: Let me talk about the upside first and then the downside. The Dalai Lama was talking to a group of clinicians and researchers at Emory University about depression, and toward the end of the conference, I remember being quite moved when he said, “If you folks discover that some elements of Buddhist meditation practices are useful for alleviating depression, I really have only one request for you: please, please don’t tell people that it comes from Buddhism. My tradition is about alleviating suffering, and if you tell people that these are Buddhist practices, you’re going to miss huge numbers of people whose suffering could be alleviated. Don’t get hung up on that. Express this in whatever form is going to be useful in alleviating suffering.”

So my inclination is to tailor our psychotherapy practices to the cultural background, needs, and proclivities of whoever we’re working with. There’s no need to present mindfulness in a way that is going to be alienating. Not only do you not need to mention Buddhism, you don’t need to mention meditation. These practices can be presented simply as attentional control training. When we train our attention differently, we have very different psychological experiences and it helps us both gain insight and cut through all sorts of forms of suffering.

The first rule of psychotherapy is to meet the client or patient where he or she is, and this should not be forced upon people as some alien cultural system, and nor should people be forced to consider the implications of these practices for developing wisdom and compassion if all they’re hoping for at the moment is a little bit less anxiety. That may come later down the road, but we can help them with that anxiety first.

That being said, there are potentials to these practices that are very deep, very wide, and very rich. If a clinician learns mindfulness-based stress reduction and sees these practices primarily as a tool for helping people to relax, they will miss some of the depth and some of the breadth of what these practices can offer. I think it’s useful for clinicians to practice with some intensity themselves, so they can see personally how transformative these practices can be, in a way that goes far, far beyond any benefits that come from relaxation training. It can be very useful for clinicians to learn about Buddhist psychology. It is a very profound and helpful way to understand the mind and how we get caught in suffering.
DK: I think that there’s a lot of mystery and mystification around what mindfulness is, and one of the great things about this new video with you we’re releasing is that we get to see you doing meditation with clients, and modulating it to the specific needs of each client. In real life you don’t do meditation with everyone, but this gives psychotherapists a chance to see what it looks like to bring it into a session.

I think a lot of people are kind of scared to do it and I know that when I first started doing it in my therapy sessions—and I only do it occasionally—I was actually surprised at how profound an experience it was for people and that it had the capacity to stir up some really intense memories. It’s a powerful tool that we have to learn how to use. Can you say a little bit about how you modulate and decide to use meditation in therapy sessions?
RS: First I’d like to pick up on one thing you said.
Many people in our society are involved in states of distraction all day long. Google says we check our cell phone on average 125 times a day.
Many people in our society are involved in states of distraction all day long. Google says we check our cell phone on average 125 times a day. We spend hours watching television. We spend a lot of time chatting with friends. There’s nothing with that—all of these things can have wholesome aspects to them and can make for a rich and interesting life, but for many of us, they keep us from really noticing what’s happening in our minds and in our hearts in each moment. They help to insulate us from the hundreds of micro-traumas that most of us experience just going through the day. The little disappointments, the “I wonder what she meant by that,” the “I didn’t do that as skillfully as I would have,” or “I haven’t quite achieved what I wanted in my life.” Endless, endless reflections, each of which has a bit of pain in it and each of which we want to distract ourselves from with various forms of entertainment and engagement. When people start taking up these practices, all of the pain of those micro-traumas start to come into awareness, and they can indeed be unsettling. Of course they also offer the opportunity to integrate all of that, which is a wonderful potential. So I think we have to be very judicious about it.

My main criteria for whether to actually teach mindfulness practice in a session are twofold; one is, what’s the person’s cultural background and how weird are they going to think it is to choose an object of attention and bring attention to that and return to that object when the mind wanders? Because for some people, it’s like, “forget it, man, that’s not me.”
DK: Yeah, on of the clients in the video, Julia, is a bit like that.
RS: For folks like that, I’m going to be very judicious about it, but one can bring mindfulness into psychotherapy in many, many ways that don’t involve teaching meditation. I already spoke about the shift in our attitude and our capacity for presence as psychotherapists that occurs, as well as the shifts in our models for psychopathology and for what might help people out of psychopathology that might come from our own practice.

Let’s say we’re sitting with somebody and it’s clear that some feeling got triggered. The conventional way to respond to that in therapy is, “What are you feeling now?” A slightly different way to ask the question might be, “what did you notice happening in the body and the mind right now?” That little shift in phrasing starts to shift the conversation from the normal narrative about “my life starring me,” to an observational stance—to what the CBT folks would call “metacognitive awareness,” or what the analysts would call “observing ego.”

To begin to watch and to identify a little bit with awareness itself, rather than the contents of the process. Of course it might be skillful or it might be unskillful in any given moment. For one person at one moment, what they need is to feel your empathic connection to them and saying, “What were you feeling at that moment?” might feel more empathically connected. But for somebody else, they might need to develop some of this observing ego or metacognitive awareness, and if we’re phrasing it in a slightly more objective way, it might serve that purpose. That begins to develop a little bit of mindfulness, even though we’re not doing anything that looks like meditation.

The second criterion I use is, “What’s their capacity to be with their experience?” If they have very little capacity to be with their experience, I want to start with very small doses and very non-threatening contents. If they have more capacity to be with their experience, we can dive into larger doses and get at whatever arises in consciousness right now. It really depends on the person.

Lighten Up

DK: You mentioned CBT and metacognition and it seems like a lot of what’s happening in mindfulness interventions is “noticing.” In CBT, I tend to think of it more as not just noticing, but blocking or counteracting thoughts. Is there also a methodology within mindfulness training where you’re being more directive with the material that comes up in the brain, or is that off limits?
RS: That’s a very interesting question. Let me correct one thing. There’s noticing, and there’s also feeling in a wholehearted way. I think one mistake people make is they assume that this is a very cognitive kind of endeavor and that’s only one part of it. The other part is really opening to what’s happening on a heart level, in terms of really feeling feelings, as well as noticing what’s happening in the interpersonal field and our relationships and connecting in an alive and juicy way to experience. So I just want to mention that first.

Secondly, CBT folks have described it as the third wave of behavior therapy. The first wave was Skinner on one hand and Pavlov and Watson on the other hand. Operant and classical conditioning and working with modifying behavior. Then came the very important insight that human beings, unlike other laboratory animals, think a lot and our thoughts have tremendous impact on both our emotions and on our behavior. So maybe what we should be doing is using behavioral principles, learning theory, to modify thoughts.

The third wave is coming from a different direction:
What if we start to see all thought as essentially fluid, suspect, unreliable, and based on emotion?
What if we start to see all thought as essentially fluid, suspect, unreliable, and based on emotion? These acceptance and mindfulness-based approaches are all about lightening up in relation to thought, rather than trying to get rid of the bad and hold onto the good.

In my experience, that can be quite powerful, but it takes a while. It’s a much more subtle and in some ways sophisticated way to work with the mind than just replacing maladaptive irrational thoughts with adaptive rational ones. After all, one person’s adaptive, rational thought, is another person’s insanity. We all may agree about our zip code and whether it’s raining at the moment, but as soon as we get into more complex matters, humans differ a great deal and I think we’d do better to have a more relativistic approach toward different thoughts.
DK: So the third wave basically posits that we are all insane.
RS: Yes, we’re all insane. This is a little bit of a bold summary, but my impression of the last 15 or 20 years of advances in cognitive science is basically the realization that all the processes that we’ve thought of as rational are irrational, that bias, desire, cultural proclivity, those kinds of factors are really what determine how and what we think. The idea that we are rational organisms analyzing data for positive goals—yeah, occasionally, but that’s not mostly how we tick. So if we can lighten up generally in our approach to thinking, I think that’s quite helpful.
DK: That is a perfect place to end. Thank you so much for sharing the insights of your otherwise unruly mind.
RS: It’s been a pleasure.

Lynn Ponton on the Challenges and Joys of Working with Teens

A Delicate Balance

Rachel Zoffness: Lynn Ponton, you are a practicing psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who has been working with teens for over thirty years, and are author of the books, The Romance of Risk: Why Teenagers Do the Things They Do and The Sex Lives of Teenagers: Revealing the Secret World of Adolescent Boys and Girls. Let’s start with some of the salient issues that come up when you’re working with children and teenagers. I find that confidentiality when working with kids and teens is often a tricky subject because teenagers have rights as clients and they want to maintain their privacy, which is critical to the alliance. But at the same time parents want to know what’s going on with their children. How do you maintain this delicate balance?
Lynn Ponton: I think it begins with the first session, and even before, when you talk with the parents on the phone—you have to alert them about how you run your therapy practice and your work with kids. I almost always say that I try to encourage privacy with the teens so that they feel open to talk with me, and I will tell their child during the first session that I’m going to try to keep things confidential, but that there will be some exceptions, and I let parents know that right away on the phone. In general, I meet the teen with the parents before I even start and I alert everybody to the parameters and the boundaries around confidentiality.
RZ: So that both the teenager and the parent are on the same page and know exactly where you stand.
LP: Exactly. The kinds of things I would need to share with parents, which I’m clear about right from that first session, would be drug use that was risky or risky behavior that would result in serious self-harm. And sometimes other things—abuse when it’s disclosed has to be shared with the parents for a variety of reasons, and because I’m a mandated reporter.

It’s often hard for a teenager to tell their parents these things directly, so I’ll offer to meet with them and their parents and we’ll work together to help them disclose this material. Collaboration with the young person assures them that even if they do tell me something, it’s not going to be reported over the telephone to their parents. They’re not going to find out about it by surprise. Instead, we’re going to collaborate together as a team to make sure that parents know this.

Of course there are times when this doesn’t always work perfectly. Having worked with kids for more than 35 years, there have been exceptions where I’ve found out quickly that a teenager is suicidal and I have to let the parents know. Maybe we have to work toward a hospitalization period or something like that, but I try as much as I can to have the teenager be part of this process and be involved with it.

Cutting

RZ: You mentioned a very hot button and interesting topic, cutting, which to me seems to have become almost a contagious and trendy behavior among teenagers. What’s your thought about that?
LP: Well, self-mutilation in all of its forms is something that therapists have to learn to feel comfortable with working with teenagers. It’s a big part of our work to connect with them, to know about it, to seem comfortable with it and not put off by it when we hear about it in a session. I first saw it about 30 years ago and wrote a paper on it in the ‘80s, which talked about self-mutilation as a communication. As you point out, it’s a contagious risk-taking behavior. In a group of teenagers, one will do it and the others will copy. They’ll think, “I’ll try it and see what I can learn from it.” That’s how that process really starts. In the ‘80s there were big concerns about self-mutilation because of sharing of implements and a lack of understanding around HIV risk, so we had to be very careful about that until we better understood it.

I think it’s often scariest for parents. So how do you work with teens around the cutting for parents? How do you help a teenager who is cutting really find other ways to cope with some of their feelings and to develop identity in a healthier way? In general I try to educate teens about cutting. I often employ them to get involved in it, to look online, look up articles about cutting. We’ll have conversations about it so that it’s really an educational process with them.

Some teens don’t want to engage in that process.
They may tell you they’re cutting, but they don’t want to learn about it, they want to do it.
They may tell you they’re cutting, but they don’t want to learn about it, they want to do it. This is something private that they’re going to do to help themselves feel better, so I’ll respect that, but I’ll still engage in conversations with them about it. I want to make sure that if they are cutting that it is safe in other ways. There’s significant risk of scarring, of infection—there’s a whole lot of risks that are associated with it.

Many teens cut because they say they feel better afterwards. A number of papers point to the beta endorphin release with cutting—the focus then becomes the physical cut and not the emotional pain that they’re feeling. So it accomplishes a lot for teenagers, but it is an unhealthy coping strategy and risk-taking behavior that you have to work with teens to limit. There are many different ways to do that.
RZ: The way you talk about cutting, it sounds like it might serve an important function for the teenagers who are doing it. What would you say to people who say that it’s just an attention-seeking strategy?
LP: Your question is well placed because I think a lot of times therapists who work with teenagers are faced either by teachers or parents or even other therapists who say, “I don’t want to work with those teens. They’re engaged in a lot of attention-seeking behaviors. How do you handle that?”

I think many behaviors in life are attention-seeking, and often we’re seeking greater attention from ourselves, that we pay attention to our own pain. Teens usually cut because they’re in pain and they don’t necessarily understand their own emotional pain but when they cut, it allows them to at least understand that it’s a painful thing that they’re dealing with. So, yes, it is attention-seeking, and adults will often be drawn in to it. Teachers at school are shocked when they find out about it and they’re worried other kids will cut.

But I think there are a lot of other factors that play in to cutting besides seeking attention. I’m also interested in questions about molestation with cutting. Were they ever hurt? Did they ever suffer abuse? Are they using that in the context of cutting? Has it become very ingrained, so it’s a behavior that they use as a coping strategy that they may have done thousands of times and they find themselves unable to stop? How does it fit in with their family?

Does their family know much about it?
There are many, many reasons why young people cut, and attention-seeking is only one of them.
One of the cases that I worked on for a long time, a girl cut because her father was a surgeon. He talked about cutting all the time, a different kind of cutting, but she imitated him in a kind of identification with her father. It took a long time to unravel, as it wasn’t obvious at the beginning of her treatment. There are many, many reasons why young people cut, and attention-seeking is only one of them. And it’s not often the major one. You have to address the complexity of the behavior and also the feelings that go with them.

Five Perspectives

RZ: I think some professionals are concerned that giving too much time and attention to cutting might be positively reinforcing. So it seems to me that as a clinician addressing it you want to find a balance between over-reacting and under-reacting.
LP: I think that’s more of a strict cognitive behavioral model way of looking at it, and it gets to the question of models and how they affect our work. Cutting is a behavior, but it’s attached to many other perspectives that we look at when we’re engaged in therapy. I try to look at things from at least five perspectives.

One is the more dynamic-relational, where you engage and are looking at aspects of the relationship—how it affects you, the parents, the cutting behavior, all of that. How disclosure plays a role in that. Attachment. Therapeutic alliance. Then there’s the behavioral model. A lot of therapists don’t use that model, but I think it helps to focus on the behavior. I often have kids keep a timesheet or a workbook on their cutting behavior and have them draw their feelings at the time that they’re cutting in addition to recording the number of times they cut. It’s a kind of cutting journal that we look at from a behavioral perspective. We also look at their thoughts that are occurring at the time that they’re cutting, so we can target really negative thoughts.

Then there is the family system. Cutting is usually very much connected with parents in some way or another—they’re worried about the parent’s reactions; they’re worried about feelings they have that they feel the parents can’t help them with. A lot of our kids have trouble with self-soothing, so they’ll cut to self-soothe. The parents might like to learn how to help soothe their teen, or help their teen gain self-soothing mechanisms, but they don’t even know the cutting is going on so they can’t focus on that area with them. Or they, themselves, may be unable to self-soothe and not know that it’s an important skill that you need for raising teenagers.

Carl Whitaker always said, "You lose the parents, you lose the family, you lose the case."
And then there’s the aspect of meaning for the teenager. What does cutting mean to them? Do they think about suicide? Some cutting is related to suicide. Self-harm that is related to suicide is very important to pay attention to, not just for our board tests but in our office with our kids.

Lastly there’s the biological perspective. With some kids that I work with, they carry biological conditions which may lead to increased cutting behavior. Prader-Willi Syndrome is one of those that has some increased cutting and self-harm. You want to be thinking about underlying conditions that might contribute to this behavior.

All of those things are going through my mind, so I’m not thinking, “if I pay attention to this behavior I will reinforce it.” Instead I’m working on all of these levels if I can. I didn’t start with this in the first year or two of being a therapist working with kids, but the longer I’ve worked with kids, the more I’ve been able to see the complexity of so-called simple behaviors.
RZ: I really appreciate that more systemic approach to working with families because when you work with children and teenagers you’re never just working with a child. You’re always working with the family and the larger system.
LP: One of my greatest teachers was Carl Whittaker, a well-known family therapist I worked with as a young medical student therapist in Wisconsin. He always said, “you lose the parents, you lose the family, you lose the case, Lynn.” I kept that in mind and it’s really helped me with all of these cases.

Manualized Treatments

RZ: Apropos of what you just said, I was trained in manualized treatments and I do see a use for them. But a lot of therapists think they’re mumbo jumbo and that they don’t address and can’t respond to the spontaneity of what happens in treatment face to face with clients. How would you make a case for manualized treatments, if at all, or what would you say to people who don’t believe in them?
LP: Well, there are now manualized treatments in dynamic relational work. There are over 400 manualized treatments that I know of in working with children and adolescents from a behavioral modality. Family therapy, too, has manualized treatments. I don’t think there are any in the more existential perspective, because it kind of runs counter to manualization. In biological therapies they have always had manualized treatments for how you evaluate symptoms and work with things.

When I work with young therapists—and I supervise a lot of residents, fellows, psychologists, psychiatrists who are at all stages of training—I really encourage them to pick one or two manualized treatments and really learn them—go away for a day or a weekend, learn the strategy, practice it, and try to become familiar with it. Even if you’re going to be a strict psychoanalyst or family therapist, I think they’re valuable because they teach you how to focus on specific things, how to evaluate. Often manualized treatments have an evaluative component built in, so you have to look at your actions and evaluate how they’re working at the end. That’s a very important part of all therapy.
RZ: Measuring one’s progress?
LP: Exactly. That’s the key, I think, in mastering some of our work. Now, which ones would I recommend? I think one of the best ones to know about is the basic cognitive behavioral therapy approach as developed by Aaron Beck at Pennsylvania. He was my supervisor when I trained there as a resident, and it’s a very successful modality to use. It helps us understand the impact of negative thinking. Another supervisor of mine was Joe Weiss, who worked on Control Mastery theory—which is about negative thoughts and ideas and the power of unconscious beliefs. I admire Marsha Linehan a great deal and the Dialectical Behavioral Therapy model. I’ve had some wonderful conversations with her about her work with adolescents and I think she really grasps what it’s like to work with high-risk adolescents. I would encourage almost anyone to look at her book on working with high-risk adolescents. It’s a wonderful model and it adds much to the work we do with young people. A third area that I think people should look into is trauma. We work so much with trauma as child and adolescent therapists. There is a trauma focused interview that we can do with kids that I use all the time. It’s very useful in diagnosis and at looking at symptom category.

I think learning a little bit about any one of these models helps any child and adolescent therapist function in a more complete way.
RZ: So it sounds like what you would advocate for is an understanding and knowledge of these manualized treatments because it gives you, as a clinician, more tools in your tool belt to pull out for individual clients as they come to you with their individual differences.
LP: It’s one of the reasons the tool belt concept is helpful. But it also makes you feel more comfortable as a therapist, knowing that you have some grasp of these different ideas. Knowing that you’re not following one dogma, but are open to new ideas, because I think ultimately as therapists we end up constructing our own way of working. The theories that we use to support our work, the collection of tasks and techniques that we define and use—these form the basis of our work . It’s very valuable to look at other people’s constructions, integrate them into our own work and say, “hey, this is useful for me. It works with these patients. I can really take this and run with it.” I mentioned five perspectives that I’ve accrued over maybe 35, 40 years of work, but I anticipate over the next 40 years there are going to be others that will greatly benefit our work as child and adolescent therapists.
RZ: There are therapists and other mental health practitioners who would say that defining yourself as eclectic dilutes your work. Do you believe that that’s true? How do you define your theoretical orientation when asked?
LP: I remember that same question from 35 years ago in residency. I think having multiple perspectives strengthens our work, and there are multiple perspectives within each of these theories, so it’s not like people who belong to one model are necessarily doing some ossified therapy that was created by some individual or group of individuals. In my work, I want to stay open and patients open me up.

One reason I like adolescent work, even though I feel like I’m getting older, is that it keeps me young. It keeps me open to new ideas. My patients actually taught me how to text on my cell phone; my patients are coded in by their first name so that they can call me and have a relationship with me.
My patients actually taught me how to text on my cell phone.
I remember one of my other supervisors, Hilda Brook, who worked a lot with eating disorders, was working with teens into her 70s and early 80s in a wheelchair, and she had greater facility with them than even I have today in my 60s. We can continue to grow in our work with teens if we stay young in other ways.

Texting

RZ: You bring up a very important and hot button issue when working with teenagers, which is texting. And I think doing therapy with teenagers and kids today is a whole new world because teenagers and kids are used to communicating through their technology. What are the upsides and downsides of deciding to be a clinician who texts with your clients as you are?
LP: I think it’s important to be aware of some of the legal parameters around texting. Many of us work with large organizations, and it’s important to be aware of HIPAA regulations and such. HIPAA doesn’t regulate all therapists, only certain therapists who are involved with electronic billing, which you might be if you work in a large institution and you bill electronically. In that case you are HIPAA regulated and with regard to texting, HIPAA states that you cannot be sending clinical decisions through a texting modality or an unsupervised modality. You have to have some regulations around it.

When I worked at UCSF for 35 years, I was in a large system that was HIPAA regulated. My texts, which I did with teenagers for 10 years during that period, dealt with scheduling, and if they texted me about an issue that I was clinically concerned about, I’d have them come in so that we could then talk about it and then work on it in person.

But the texting connection I think is very, very important with teens and therapists. Not all therapists can do it for a variety of reasons. Not everyone feels comfortable with it and not all teens have phones. I’ve done a lot of work with homeless teens, who usually don’t have phones, so you have to figure out other ways to communicate with them.

But the bulk of teens out there today do have access to texting and they will communicate that way, often just to check in with you. They may just want to know you’re there and I think that sets up a relationship with them. I don’t always respond to those texts, but they know that I’m receiving and reading them.

But let’s say you’re not HIPAA regulated, so you can put anything on text. I would still say if you’ve got a big clinical concern with a teen—let’s say they text you, “I’m cutting, I think it’s out of control, I’m feeling really anxious”—I’m going to call them immediately rather than text, and most likely try to get them in to see me if I can. So it’s not that I’m sending long texts back and forth about that type of behavior. I’m really using it as a way to communicate to stay in touch.

Other ways that teens will keep me informed, they’ll often text me, “Saw an article you should be reading, doc,” or “thought you’d like this.” Those things are important because it is a reciprocal relationship. I’m largely involved in educating young people, but they help me a lot, too, and I get a lot from them.
RZ: For therapists in private or group practice who don’t work for large organizations, is there a downside to texting? For example, what if you lose your phone?
LP: I think that gets back to just have their first name, maybe an initial afterwards, but no way that they could really be identified. And if they’re very sensitive texts you can also erase them, although we all know that things are out in the cloud forever. So be aware that that information is out there.

This is also one of the things that you should discuss in the first session. I often discuss with my patients my availability, how they can get a hold of me, so they know that I will have their first name on the cell phone, and their phone number, and that I’m fairly easily accessible. I believe one of the reasons I’ve been so successful with teenagers and their parents is because I have very good accessibility. I take my cell phone all over the world when I travel. I do have somebody on call to cover, but I’m available in that way. But let’s say that cell phone is lost, and I’ve never lost my cell phone, though I fear it all the time, Rachel. I’m looking around for it and I worry about memory loss and loss of cell phone. But if it’s lost I think you have to alert the patients, especially those that you’re texting with, that there is a risk and the cell phone was lost. Most of them are not that concerned about it because their whole name is not out there. There’s not a lot of information out there. But I think it’s important to do that. But I also know from forensic cases that you can actually remove data from a distance off of a cell phone, which might actually be required if you work for a university or large organization.

Sexting

RZ: Technology and internet use seems to be a primary source of conflict between parents and kids. Do you see this a lot in your practice? And how do you go about addressing it both with the parents and with the children?
LP: Very young kids, 9, 10, 11, 12 are using the internet or videogames or other media for large periods of time, and parents are often seeing symptoms—kids are struggling with school, their concentration is impaired, and they’re not engaged in other activities or relationships.
Some boys are being prosecuted for texting sexual photos and parents of boys are very concerned about this.
I think that that’s a very important area to be aware of. Parents need education around the signs to be looking out for when kids are struggling. We need to think about their media profiles, how much time are they on TV, how much time they are playing videogames, how much time are they on internet, and what different modalities they’re involved with.

When families come in, I’ll have both the kid and the parents keep a journal and write their feelings down about what’s happening when there’s a confrontation at home regarding this behavior. And all of that comes back into the session. I often will use the family modality to meet at that point and we’ll talk about what’s going on in that type of interaction.

The other area that comes up frequently with teenagers is sexting—texting sexual material. During the past five years I would estimate I’ve had 50 teenagers referred to me who have been involved in sexting activities.

In general, the girls are involved in sexting pictures, nude photos of themselves that have caused some great difficulty. These are often selfies where the girls will hold the camera out in front of themselves, often in their bedroom or bathroom, sometimes partially clothed, sometimes not, and then they’ll text the photo to a friend or friends, and then it gets texted everywhere. That type of interaction is very important to pay attention to and I’ll generally work with the teenage girl alone and talk with her about what happened. The feelings around sexual development are very private and tender, and it’s deeply shocking that this is suddenly exposed to a large group of people. I work with the family around this behavior, too, and sometimes will meet with parents alone to help them understand why this behavior might have taken place.

I would say a smaller number of the sexting cases, roughly 20%, are boys texting nude photos of themselves, but they’re mostly texting nude photos of girls. There are also laws involved with this and I’ve been involved with the FBI and other law enforcement officials around how to handle these cases. There’s awareness in high schools now that they have to report these cases when they discover that boys are texting sexual photos of girls. Some boys are being prosecuted for texting sexual photos and parents of boys are very concerned about this.
RZ: How do you handle those cases when they come in?
LP: First be aware of the legal ramifications. Second, encourage them to get legal advice, because we as therapists can’t provide all of that. Third, I often will meet with the boy individually and try to get a sense of what happened and work with them around that. Many boys are shocked that this has happened. They may have thought they were doing what the other guys at school were doing, that it was cool, they were getting more status. But I’ve also seen boys who’ve had long-standing problems and the texting of the sexual photos is connected to other sexual difficulties that they’ve been struggling with. They may have been molested. They may have molested another person. So to be aware of that, to be open to hearing about that is very important.

Parents of boys are often very angry about this process. They feel that the boy is at a disadvantage because though he sexted the photos, it was the girl who originally sent the photos out so it should be her responsibility. Helping the parents see that we have to take a deeper look at what’s going on with their son under these circumstances is really, really important and not easy to do. You have to stay open to their feelings about their boys being scapegoated, but at the same time point out this is something we have to pay attention to.

The intersection of online work and sexuality is really a key area to focus on, to get as much help as you can as a therapist. Sometimes if I have a question, even today I’ll go to another therapist that I think has more expertise in this area and get supervision.
RZ: Are there particular resources for therapists who want to learn more about how they can be better clinicians when addressing something like sexting?
LP: Yes. I’m not going to toot my own horn about this, but I’ve written an article that’s online about sexting and working with clinicians that I think is very helpful. It has a literature review of a couple of cases and ten guidelines for parents and therapists around this area. There are not recent and current books because it’s a fairly new topic, but I think it’s something we’re going to see more of in textbooks and articles. A lot of young psychologists’ dissertations have been done on sexting, and those are valuable if you can get a copy and read them.

Learn to Like Kids

RZ: What advice do you have for beginning clinicians treating kids and teens?
LP: The most important thing about doing this work is that you have to be knowledgeable about your own childhood and adolescence. You have to have thought about it, its impact on your own development, the issues that you might bring to the work, questions and preconceptions about it, etc. I encourage almost all therapists to have their own experience in therapy and to explore some of these issues.

Second, what helps the most in this work is really loving children and adolescents. Having a strong love for that age group or working toward it. Let’s say you don’t love it, you’re kind of afraid of it, maybe you’re going to work toward a passion in that area. You’re going to learn why you’re afraid of that age group and you’re going to try it out and get supervision with somebody who is really very good at it. It is a group that is fun to work with, is very challenging, and can really be a growth opportunity for you as a therapist. But I’d say try to develop a passion for it. Learn to like kids. Learn a lot about child and adolescent development. I think either being a parent or playing a role with your nieces and your nephews and other kids is really important.

Third, you’ve got to be able to work with parents. When I was younger and starting out one of my mistakes was that I thought I knew what it was like to be a parent long before I was a parent, and I was often angry with how parents treated kids. By now I’ve gone through decades, I’ve had my own kids and I see it differently. I see myself as a valuable resource to parents and I have great empathy for them.

Sometimes I have to do very difficult things with parents.
Once I had to climb through a glass window when a young mother was holding her new baby and was psychotic and trying to do something to the baby.
Once I had to climb through a glass window when a young mother was holding her new baby and was psychotic and trying to do something to the baby. The police were there and there was obviously a lot involved with this, but we had to save the baby and rip the baby out of the mother’s arms. So there are things that you often have to do in this work that are not very easy with parents and I think I’ve learned how to do those with concern and empathy as I’ve grown older and become an older therapist. But at the beginning I would say stay open to the work with parents. Keep your eyes open. Realize you don’t know everything.

Fourth, Don’t just accept a dogma. Try to integrate and construct your own idea of how to do the work. I talked earlier about the five perspectives I use but think about those that work best for you, yourself, as a therapist, and with the patients you’re working with.

Lastly I’d focus on the first session and developing a good alliance with kids relatively quickly. That first session is really important—how you connect to your passion, staying open, not being judgmental. Watching tapes of other therapists do first sessions can be really helpful, or being in a study group where you share information about your sessions with kids. Or even observing preschool teachers, who are often very good with kids, welcome kids into the classroom, integrate them, and get them playing and involved in activities. All of that adds to our abilities in that area.
RZ: What do you think has helped you become a better clinician?
LP: Years of experience have helped a lot. Reading widely has helped a lot. Having my own children has helped a lot. I have four—two step sons and two daughters—and I’ve learned from all of them. It’s not been easy.

Supervising younger therapists has also been really helpful, because I’ve listened to their problems and I really try to figure out what they’re going through, which keeps me more in touch with what it’s like to start this work. This is not easy work. There’s a lot to learn. We make a lot of mistakes in it, but we do a lot of good.

Maybe the last thing I’d say about it is I’ve been so impressed over all the years of working with adolescents how many return. They bring their own kids back for treatment. That keeps me in it more than anything—having the kids come back with their own children, and seeing that they’ve shared things I said to them. This is not everybody, of course, because I’ve had over the course of my career two adolescents who killed themselves. I’ve gone through a lot of difficult experiences, as have my patients, but I am impressed with this type of work and how much we can help kids if we stick with it.

It’s wonderful work that makes you feel very good about your life’s work at the end of it. I don’t see myself at the end of it, but I have talked with others, like James Anthony, a role model of mine who was a wonderful child therapist who worked with Anna Freud. When I was a very young student I had the opportunity of working with him in London. He loved the work and he still continues to teach me things—and he’s in his late ‘90s. He talks about having patients come back and treating the grandchildren of the children he saw. That is an amazing thing. It’s a chance to be very connected with others in life really.

Suicide

RZ: It sounds incredibly powerful to have had such a positive impact on someone as a teenager that they want to bring their own teenagers to you once they have had children. It also sounds incredibly powerful to have lost an adolescent client to suicide and I’m wondering if you feel comfortable talking about that a little bit.
LP: It’s a reason that a lot of therapists seek out supervision.
RZ: It’s admittedly my worst fear.
LP: I think it is for all of us. It’s not just the legal aspects of it. We all carry liability insurance and we’re worried about that part of it—but it’s also just the connection. I will say that I really remember these patients and their treatment very, very well because of going through this and thinking about it a lot. The first was a young man who killed himself when I was the director of the adolescent unit at UCSF.
RZ: How old was he?
LP: He was 19 and he had very severe bipolar disorder. He stopped his medicines when I went on vacation and then went into the woods and shot himself. I had arranged for somebody to cover me during this period of time. It was a short vacation, but still enough for this to happen. I’ve thought about it a great deal, of course. It’s changed the way I take vacations. I still take them, but I’m very alert, thinking about coverage and concern about these teenagers and children when I leave.

I spent several months working with his family. They had anticipated it more than I had and that surprised me. I went to the service and worked with them in a collaborative mode, which I did not charge them for, and they were very grateful. I’ve stayed in touch with them in some ways, though that happened I’d say roughly about 30 years ago now.

The other suicide was about 20 years ago and was a patient I’d worked with for years. She had a chronic psychotic condition. She was a very bright young woman and I had spent a lot of time with her. She had promised me that she would not harm herself until she was 30 years old, and then she killed herself not long after her 30th birthday. So she stayed alive working with me for years I think to try to get better, and we tried everything. Family therapy, medications—and it was clear that she was going to be living with a chronic psychotic illness that was incredibly painful for her.

I still think about her all the time. I think she helped me in many ways to understand that sometimes we work with individuals who are suffering so much that from their perspective, their life is really not worth living.
Sometimes we work with individuals who are suffering so much that from their perspective, their life is really not worth living.
We can discuss that with them, we can work to help them, many different things can be done, but there are limits to the work that we do. She left me a number of drawings she drew and painted. I think a lot about her family. I worked in much the same way that I described with the earlier boy. I met with her family and had contact with them for a long period of time. I still think about her all the time.
RZ: I bet. I think this is particularly important to talk about for young therapists who are, as you mentioned before, maybe put off entirely by cutting because they’re so scared of it, or don’t want to work with suicidal clients because they’re so afraid of losing a patient. It’s really valuable for me as a young therapist to hear you talk about having gone through this worst fear with a couple of your clients and not only did you get through it, but it made you a stronger clinician ultimately.
LP: I think ultimately it did. Of course, a big part of this was questioning what I had done with them and if I had made the right decisions.
RZ: Of course.
LP: Had I done something wrong?
RZ: That’s natural.
LP: I think any therapist who has had a patient suicide question their work. Families question their interactions with their children after suicide. We all think about it. I work with many teenagers, especially here in the Bay Area, who have had friends suicide, and the young teens question what they could have done to help their friend. It’s not only us as a group of therapists who question ourselves, but it’s really the world that comes forward to question itself around suicides.
RZ: It seems like that’s the first question people ask friends, family, and therapists alike: What could I have done? Could I have done something different or better? And I think that is a real challenge.
LP: It’s natural and appropriate to ask those questions and explore them, but it’s also important to really understand that there are limits in life to what we can do. It’s important in this line of work to talk about this aspect of it.
RZ: That’s a very realistic and compassionate perspective. Thank you for your time and for your wisdom.
LP: And thank you for your good questions, Rachel.

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma

The following is an excerpt from The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk, MD. Reprinted by arrangement with Viking, a member of Penguin Group (USA) LLC, A Penguin Random House Company. Copyright © Bessel van der Kolk, MD, 2014.

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Marilyn was a tall, athletic-looking woman in her mid-thirties who worked as an operating-room nurse in a nearby town. She told me that a few months earlier she’d started to play tennis at her sports club with a Boston fireman named Michael. She usually steered clear of men, she said, but she had gradually become comfortable enough with Michael to accept his invitations to go out for pizza after their matches. They’d talk about tennis, movies, their nephews and nieces—nothing too personal. Michael clearly enjoyed her company, but she told herself he didn’t really know her.

One Saturday evening in August, after tennis and pizza, she invited him to stay over at her apartment. She described feeling “uptight and unreal” as soon as they were alone together. She remembered asking him to go slow but had very little sense of what had happened after that. After a few glasses of wine and a rerun of “Law & Order,” they apparently fell asleep together on top of her bed. At around two in the morning, Michael turned over in his sleep. When Marilyn felt his body touch hers, she exploded—pounding him with her fists, scratching and biting, screaming, “You bastard, you bastard!” Michael, startled awake, grabbed his belongings and fled. After he left, Marilyn sat on her bed for hours, stunned by what had happened. She felt deeply humiliated and hated herself for what she had done, and now she’d come to me for help in dealing with her terror of men and her inexplicable rage attacks.

My work with veterans had prepared me to listen to painful stories like Marilyn’s without trying to jump in immediately to fix the problem. Therapy often starts with some inexplicable behavior: attacking a boyfriend in the middle of the night, feeling terrified when somebody looks you in the eye, finding yourself covered with blood after cutting yourself with a piece of glass, or deliberately vomiting up every meal. It takes time and patience to allow the reality behind such symptoms to reveal itself.

Terror and Numbness

As we talked, Marilyn told me that Michael was the first man she’d taken home in more than five years, but this was not the first time she’d lost control when a man spent the night with her. She repeated that she always felt uptight and spaced out when she was alone with a man, and there had been other times when she’d “come to” in her apartment, cowering in a corner, unable to remember clearly what had happened.

Marilyn also said she felt as if she was just “going through the motions” of having a life. Except for when she was at the club playing tennis or at work in the OR, she usually felt numb. A few years earlier she’d found that she could relieve her numbness by scratching herself with a razor blade, but she had become frightened when she found that she was cutting herself more and more deeply, and more and more often, to get relief. She had tried alcohol, too, but that reminded her of her dad and his out?of?control drinking, which made her feel disgusted with herself. So instead she played tennis fanatically, whenever she could. That gave her a feeling of being alive.

When I asked her about her past, Marilyn said she guessed that she “must have had” a happy childhood, but she could remember very little from before age twelve. She told me she’d been a timid adolescent, until she had a violent confrontation with her alcoholic father when she was sixteen and ran away from home. She worked her way through community college and went on to get a degree in nursing without any help from her parents. She felt ashamed that during this time she’d slept around, which she described as “looking for love in all the wrong places.”

As I often did with new patients, I asked her to draw a family portrait, and when I saw her drawing, I decided to go slowly. Clearly Marilyn was harboring some terrible memories, but she could not allow herself to recognize what her own picture revealed. She had drawn a wild and terrified child, trapped in some kind of cage and threatened not only by three nightmarish figures—one with no eyes—but also by a huge erect penis protruding into her space. And yet this woman said she “must have had” a happy childhood.

As the poet W. H. Auden wrote:
Truth, like love and sleep, resents
Approaches that are too intense.

I call this Auden’s rule, and in keeping with it I deliberately did not push Marilyn to tell me what she remembered. In fact, “I’ve learned that it’s not important for me to know every detail of a patient’s trauma. What is critical is that the patients themselves learn to tolerate feeling what they feel and knowing what they know.” This may take weeks or even years. I decided to start Marilyn’s treatment by inviting her to join an established therapy group where she could find support and acceptance before facing the engine of her distrust, shame, and rage.

As I expected, Marilyn arrived at the first group meeting looking terrified, much like the girl in her family portrait; she was withdrawn and did not reach out to anybody. I’d chosen this group for her because its members had always been helpful and accepting of new participants who were too scared to talk. They knew from their own experience that unlocking secrets is a gradual process. But this time they surprised me, asking so many intrusive questions about Marilyn’s love life that I recalled her drawing of the little girl under assault. It was almost as though Marilyn had unwittingly enlisted the group to repeat her traumatic past. I intervened to help her set some boundaries about what she’d talk about, and she began to settle in.

Three months later Marilyn told the group that she had stumbled and fallen a few times on the sidewalk between the subway and my office. She worried that her eyesight was beginning to fail: She’d also been missing a lot of tennis balls recently. I thought again about her drawing and the wild child with the huge, terrified eyes. Was this was some sort of “conversion reaction,” in which patients express their conflicts by losing function in some part of their body? Many soldiers in both world wars had suffered paralysis that couldn’t be traced to physical injuries, and I had seen cases of “hysterical blindness” in Mexico and India.

Still, as a physician, I wasn’t about to conclude without further assessment that this was “all in her head.” I referred her to colleagues at the Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary and asked them to do a very thorough workup. Several weeks later the tests came back. Marilyn had lupus erythematosus of her retina, an autoimmune disease that was eroding her vision, and she would need immediate treatment. I was appalled: “Marilyn was the third person that year whom I’d suspected of having an incest history and who was then diagnosed with an autoimmune disease—a disease in which the body starts attacking itself.”

After making sure that Marilyn was getting the proper medical care, I consulted with two of my colleagues at Massachusetts General, psychiatrist Scott Wilson and Richard Kradin, who ran the immunology laboratory there. I told them Marilyn’s story, showed them the picture she’d drawn, and asked them to collaborate on a study. They generously volunteered their time and the considerable expense of a full immunology workup. We recruited twelve women with incest histories who were not taking any medications, plus twelve women who had never been traumatized and who also did not take meds—a surprisingly difficult control group to find. (Marilyn was not in the study; we generally do not ask our clinical patients to be part of our research efforts.)

When the study was completed and the data analyzed, Rich reported that the group of incest survivors had abnormalities in their CD45 RA?to?RO ratio, compared with their nontraumatized peers. CD45 cells are the “memory cells” of the immune system. Some of them, called RA cells, have been activated by past exposure to toxins; they quickly respond to environmental threats they have encountered before. The RO cells, in contrast, are kept in reserve for new challenges; they are turned on to deal with threats the body has not met previously. The RA?to?RO ratio is the balance between cells that recognize known toxins and cells that wait for new information to activate. In patients with histories of incest, the proportion of RA cells that are ready to pounce is larger than normal. This makes the immune system oversensitive to threat, so that it is prone to mount a defense when none is needed, even when this means attacking the body’s own cells.

Our study showed that, on a deep level, the bodies of incest victims have trouble distinguishing between danger and safety. This means that the imprint of past trauma does not consist only of distorted perceptions of information coming from the outside; the organism itself also has a problem knowing how to feel safe. The past is impressed not only on their minds, and in misinterpretations of innocuous events (as when Marilyn attacked Michael because he accidentally touched her in her sleep), but also on the very core of their beings: in the safety of their bodies.

Note: Find out about Bessel’s new in-depth, online Trauma Certificate Course

Bessel van der Kolk on Trauma, Development and Healing

Talking About it Doesn’t Put it Behind You

David Bullard: Bessel, you are the medical director and founder of the Trauma Center at Justice Resource Institute and professor of psychiatry at the Boston University School of Medicine. You have been one of the most influential and outspoken clinicians, educators and researchers contributing to our understanding of trauma and its treatment.
I don’t remember reading a professional book in several intense sittings like I just did with your new book, The Body Keeps The Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma. It’s been praised by everyone from Jon Kabat-Zinn and Francine Shapiro to Jack Kornfield, Peter Levine and Judith Herman, who called it a “masterpiece that combines the boundless curiosity of the scientist, the erudition of the scholar, and the passion of the truth teller.” (Read an excerpt from the book accompanying this interview.)
Let me start with some basics: Could you say something about why talk therapy alone doesn’t work when treating trauma?
Bessel van der Kolk: From my vantage point as a researcher we know that the impact of trauma is upon the survival or animal part of the brain. That means that our automatic danger signals are disturbed, and we become hyper- or hypo-active: aroused or numbed out. We become like frightened animals. We cannot reason ourselves out of being frightened or upset.
Of course, talking can be very helpful in acknowledging the reality about what’s happened and how it’s affected you, but talking about it doesn’t put it behind you because it doesn’t go deep enough into the survival brain.
DB: Would you say that is one of the distinctions between your work and Edna Foa’s “prolonged exposure therapy”? In a New Yorker article on trauma, Foa talked about rewriting memories, rather than destroying them, and describes her work with a patient with PTSD who had been raped years before: “We asked her to tell the story of that New Year’s Eve (when the rape occurred) and repeat it many times….to distinguish between remembering what happened in the past and actually being back there…and when, finally, the woman did that she realized that the terror and her rape were not her fault.”That sounds like cognitive learning.
Bv: That’s a lovely example of the ability of talk to get a better perspective. But there is a mistaken notion that trauma is primarily about memory—the story of what has happened; and that is probably often true for the first few days after the traumatic event, but then a cascade of defenses precipitate a variety of reactions in mind and brain that are attempts to blunt the impact of the ongoing sense of threat, but which tend to set up their own plethora of problems. So, trying to find a chemical to abolish bad memories is an interesting academic enterprise, but it’s unlikely to help many patients. It’s a too-simplistic view in my opinion. Your whole mind, brain and sense of self is changed in response to trauma.
In the long term the largest problem of being traumatized is that it’s hard to feel that anything that’s going on around you really matters. It is difficult to love and take care of people and get involved in pleasure and engagements because your brain has been re-organized to deal with danger.
It is only partly an issue of consciousness. Much has to do with unconscious parts of the brain that keep interpreting the world as being dangerous and frightening and feeling helpless. You know you shouldn’t feel that way, but you do, and that makes you feel defective and ashamed.

EMDR and Body Awareness Approaches to Trauma Treatment

DB: You are a big proponent of body awareness approaches to trauma treatment—and for a fully lived life. For example, you’ve done research on yoga for trauma survivors and recommend yoga for patients. I saw recently that your Trauma Center offers trainings to yoga teachers in working with the trauma of their students. You also speak very highly of the body-oriented therapies of Peter Levine and Pat Ogden, and especially of EMDR. You devote a whole chapter to your learning EMDR and examples of your use of it.
Bv: We have done the only NIMH-funded study on EMDR. As of 2014, the results of that study were more positive than any published study of those who developed their PTSD in reaction to a traumatic event as an adult.
There are opinions and there are facts.
Traumatized people often become insensible to themselves. They find it difficult to sense pleasure and to feel engaged. These understandings force us to use methods to awaken the sensory modalities in the person.
The facts are that the EMDR study was spectacularly successful in adults, a bit less with childhood trauma–at least not in the short period of time (eight 90-minute sessions) in the research protocol. But our research found that the impact of trauma is in the somatosensory self, trauma changes the insula, the self-awareness systems. Traumatized people often become insensible to themselves. They find it difficult to sense pleasure and to feel engaged. These understandings force us to use methods to awaken the sensory modalities in the person.
DB: The following quote from your book beautifully addresses some of this:
“The neuroscience of selfhood and agency validates the kinds of somatic therapies that my friends Peter Levine and Pat Ogden have developed…. [In] essence their aim is threefold:

  • to draw out the sensory information that is blocked and frozen by trauma;
  • to help patients befriend (rather than suppress) the energies released by that inner experience;
  • to complete the self-preserving physical actions that were thwarted when they were trapped, restrained, or immobilized by terror. 

Our gut feelings signal what is safe, life sustaining, or threatening, even if we cannot quite explain why we feel a particular way. Our sensory interiority continuously sends us subtle messages about the needs of our organism. Gut feelings also help us to evaluate what is going on around us. They warn us that the guy who is approaching feels creepy, but they also convey that a room with western exposure surrounded by daylilies makes us feel serene. If you have a comfortable connection with your inner sensations—if you can trust them to give you accurate information—you will feel in charge of your body, your feelings, and your self” (p.96).

EMDR trainers now seem to be focusing more on sensory modalities than when I first was taught about EMDR, and they also use “resource installation” (Leeds) and more recently “dyadic resourcing” (Manfield). But if there has been an identified single trauma that doesn’t resolve after several sessions, they look for an older “feeder memory,” and get there by asking the patient to focus on body sensations to see if he or she has ever felt those sensations before. It often is a gateway to an earlier trauma.
Bv: A lot of different schools do that, where the body is a pronounced part of therapy. My own teacher, Elvin Semrad, in the early 1970s in Boston, was very somatically oriented; same thing for Milton Erikson and many schools of hypnotherapy. Most people I hang out with who work with traumatic stress are somatically oriented.

The Limits of CBT

DB: The popular media are often puzzlingly ignorant about the nature of trauma and its treatment. You are very well aware of this, but an otherwise interesting article in the May, 2014 issue of The New Yorker magazine stated that a study “published in Nature in 2010, offered the first clear suggestion that it might be possible to provide long-term treatment for people who suffer from PTSD and other anxiety disorders without drugs.” That article never even mentioned EMDR, which was listed in a 1998 task force report of the Clinical Division of the American Psychological Association as being one of three psychological therapies (together with exposure and stress inoculation therapy) empirically supported for the treatment of PTSD. How could they miss that?
Bv: Well, they often get things not quite right! It intrigues me how the public is much more fascinated with the potential of false memories in patients than in the gross distortions of our society’s memory of trauma.
Articles like the one you cited often relate to the study of memories in mice. It is a huge leap, of course, from rodents to human beings, which not only leads to misinformation about the nature of traumatic stress and its treatments, but also about the rather trenchant differences between humans and mice. Humans are profoundly social animals—everything we do and think is in relation to a larger tribe. Our brains are cultural organs. It probably has something to do with people’s temperaments; people who do rodent research are drawn to the simplicity of rodent brains. In order to work with humans you need to have a taste for culture, complexity and uncertainty. People would be astonished if a psychotherapist gave advice to rodent researchers on how to run their labs! But the popular press takes the liberty of making these misinformed leaps with the general public all the time.
DB: How best to treat trauma is a crucial question, of course. You saw CBS’ 60 Minutes television show that first aired in November, 2013, describing a Veterans Administration program treating war veterans using “cognitive processing therapy” and prolonged exposure treatment methods. Your understanding of and approach to treating trauma is very different. Can you address a couple of points that distinguish your views from those presented by that VA treatment program?
Bv: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (and “Trauma Focused CBT”), talk therapies, and prolonged exposure therapies can make some changes in people’s distress, but traumatic stress has little to do with cognition—it emanates from the emotional part of the brain that is rewired to constantly send out messages of dangers and distress, with the result that it becomes difficult to feel fully alive in the present. Blasting people with the memories of the trauma may lead to desensitization and numbing, but it does not lead to integration: an organic awareness that the event is over, and that you are fully alive in the present. The VA seems to be surprised by how many veterans drop out of prolonged exposure therapy. It would be helpful for them to find out why, but the likely answer is that it is re-traumatizing them.
DB: More recently, there was the profile of your work with trauma in the Sunday Magazine of the New York Times (May 22, 2014). The author shadowed you for a month, and it seemed to me that the article minimized the outcome of the clinical demonstration you did with an Iraqi war veteran at an Esalen Institute workshop.
Bv: The current Family Therapy Networker magazine just ran a piece about all the inaccuracies in that article, and the difficulties journalists have in getting the story straight. “Eugene” was the participant in the workshop, and he said “The takeaway when I read [the New York Times article] was that I was confused by the experience and that it didn’t help, which just isn’t true…When I spoke with the reporter, I said very positive things about the concrete ways that it helped me in terms of physical symptoms that disappeared, and also the fact that Dr. van der Kolk recommended people for me to work with afterward. He really spent some time finding a good recommendation for EMDR, and it really helps.” He wrote a letter to that effect and they wouldn’t publish it. I just got an email from him with a picture of my new book saying, “Thank you for helping me to regain the capacity for calmness and focus to be able to engage, and read books again.”
DB: The New York Times article also quoted sound bites from some other researchers, seemingly questioning your work, but later corrected some misinformation.
Bv: That’s another intriguing issue. There seems to be a tendency among therapists to become very religious about their own particular method—some seem to be more committed to their method than to the welfare of their patients. When patients don’t improve, they blame their resistance, and slam the people who point out that one size never fits all. The New York Times article also alluded to the Roman Catholic Church’s problems with clergy abuse and trying to defend itself by claiming that these plaintiffs suffered from “false memories,” and were the victims of “repressed memory therapy.” Testifying on behalf of pedophiles became a whole industry that seems to have entirely disappeared now that these trials are over.
DB: The newspaper did publish your brief (and, I thought, restrained!) rejoinder clarifying the issues presented, and you received an overwhelmingly supportive response in other letters to the editor and online comments. Here’s an excerpt from your letter to the New York Times:
Trauma is much more than a story about the past that explains why people are frightened, angry or out of control. Trauma is re-experienced in the present, not as a story, but as profoundly disturbing physical sensations and emotions that may not be consciously associated with memories of past trauma. Terror, rage and helplessness are manifested as bodily reactions, like a pounding heart, nausea, gut-wrenching sensations and characteristic body movements that signify collapse, rigidity or rage…. The challenge in recovering from trauma is to learn to tolerate feeling what you feel and knowing what you know without becoming overwhelmed. There are many ways to achieve this, but all involve establishing a sense of safety and the regulation of physiological arousal.
Bv: I also mentioned in the Networker article, “What happened …is a reflection of the incredible difficulties society has with staring trauma in the face and providing people with the facts of what happens, how bad it is, and how well treatments work.”

Talent and Compassion Aren’t Enough

DB: I appreciate your emphasis on research and fact-based discussions versus theoretical ones. Along those lines, George Silberschatz, a past-president of the international Society for Psychotherapy Research, said in a recent interview that the between-therapist effects were as large if not larger than the between-treatment effects in current psychotherapy research, and this is perhaps from non-specific treatment effects.
Bv: Well, talent and compassion are central elements of being an effective therapist, but learning to feel your feelings and be in charge of your self, and working with someone who knows how to deal with bodily sensations and impulses can make all the difference between visiting an understanding friend once a week, and actually healing your trauma.
DB: Could it relate to Stephen Porges’ description of the Polyvagal Theory and the social engagement system? The nonspecific treatment effects from psychotherapy research seem to be powerful about the therapist helping to create a safe environment.
Bv: I have been very much inspired by Porges’ work. The reason that Porges has become an important part of our world is his finding that trauma interferes with face-to-face communication. It is very important how you get regulated in the presence of other people. We need to learn very specific ways to activate the social engagement system. Sitting in your chair and chatting might not always be the most effective way of doing that.

Porges’ work was very helpful and clarifying about where in the brain trauma makes it difficult to feel comfort, to feel intimate and connected with other people. Knowing those things can help therapists to become more conscious about the specifics of their interactions, and should become part of the training of therapists. For example, I recently took a month-long intensive training course for Shakespearean actors to learn how the modulations of my voice, the configurations of my facial muscles, and the attitudes of my body affect my self-experience, and that of the people around me.
Porges’ work points to the importance of working with the reptilian brain—the brain stem, as well as the limbic system. We need to teach breathing and movement and work with the parts of the brain that are most impacted by trauma—areas that the conscious brain has no access to.
So I am dubious about the nonspecific relational impact of treatment on benefiting traumatized individuals. Seeing someone nonspecifically does not help the fear circuits and that collapsed sense of self. We need to learn very specific ways to activate the social engagement system. Sitting in your chair and chatting might not always be the most effective way of doing that.
DB: A colleague of yours from your Harvard days, neuroscientist Catherine Kerr, recently writing about mindfulness research, said:
The placebo effect is usually defined, somewhat tortuously, as the sum of the nonspecific effects that are not hypothesized to be the direct mechanism of treatment. For example, having a face-to-face conversation is not hypothesized as what makes psychotherapy work—you could have a face-to-face conversation with anybody. But for some reason, if you go every week to therapy, you are going to get better. But you could talk about the weather! When we perform these rituals with a desire to get better, we often do. We now know that a lot of the positive therapeutic benefit from psychotherapy and from various pain drugs may come from that initial context; it often has nothing to do with the specific treatment that is being offered. It is really just about the person approaching a situation with a sense of hope and being met by something that seems to hold out that hope (October 01, 2014, Tricycle Magazine).
And I think Allan Schore at UCLA would say that there is “unconscious right brain to unconscious right brain communication” going on, between therapists and patients, or between any of us in close relationships that might be what is otherwise thought to be “nonspecific” in therapy research. A deep ability to be present and connect empathically with patients is easier for some individual therapists than for others. Perhaps we are discussing a situation in therapy of “necessary, but not sufficient!”
Bv: I can’t really comment on all that—you’ll have to ask Catherine Kerr and Allan Schore. I have always been a bit puzzled about that “right brain to right brain” stuff. The research shows that the part of the brain most impacted by trauma is the left hemisphere, and I would imagine that every single part of the brain is necessary for effective functioning and feeling fully alive in the present.
DB: Well, I will be interviewing Schore next month, so we now have some good material to discuss!
Bv: I’ll look forward to reading that.

Neurofeedback & Yoga

DB: Is there anything in your own thinking that you feel has significantly changed in the last couple of years due to your continuing growth in the work and in all you are exposed to?
Bv: The biggest has been my exposure to neurofeedback (a type of biofeedback that focuses on brain waves, instead of peripheral phenomena like heart rate and skin conductance). In neurofeedback you change your brain’s electrical activity by playing computer games with your own brain waves. Learning how to interpret quantitative EEG’s helped me to visualize better how the brain processes information, and how disorganized the brain becomes in response to trauma. What made it necessary to look for other, non-interpersonally-based therapies was the realization, followed by research that dramatically illustrated how being traumatized may interfere with the ability to engage with other human beings to feel curious, open and alive.
Learning how to interpret quantitative EEGs allowed me to actually visualize what parts of the brain are distorted by traumatic experiences, and this can help us target specific brain areas where there is abnormal activity and where the problem actually is.
The trauma is not the story of what happened long ago; the long-term trauma is that you are robbed of feeling fully alive and in charge of your self.
For example, for the part of the brain supposed to be in charge, after trauma it will have excessive activity, keeping people in a state of chronic arousal—making it difficult to sleep, hard to engage and to relax. We find neurofeedback can change the activity in parts of the brain to allow it to be more calm and self-observant.
In another example, the frontal lobes of traumatized people often have activity similar to that of kids with ADHD, which makes it difficult to attend with the subtlety that we need to lead nuanced lives.
DB: So would the neurofeedback be with or without exposure to a particular traumatic memory?
Bv: Again, traumatic stress results in not being able to fully engage in the present. The trauma is not the story of what happened long ago; the long-term trauma is that you are robbed of feeling fully alive and in charge of your self.
DB: You would say that also is a positive outcome from yoga and other body awareness exercises, activating and strengthening the parasympathetic nervous system?
Bv: In our NIH-funded yoga for PTSD study we saw people did considerably better after 8 weeks of yoga. It can make a contribution to help people be more present in the here and now. The whole brain gets reorganized. Some quotes from participants in that study included:

  • “My emotions feel more powerful. Maybe it’s just that I can recognize them now.”
  • “I can express my feelings more because I can recognize them more. I feel them in my body, recognize them, and address them.”

This research needs much more work, but it opens up new perspectives on how actions that involve noticing and befriending the sensations in our bodies can produce profound changes in both mind and brain that can lead to healing from trauma. When we understand these things about the brain, how it works, we learn more about how to adjust our treatments.

DB: I’ve heard you say that you do not identify as belonging to any one particular school of therapy; that you do not even identify as an EMDR therapist even though you often utilize it.
Bv: Well, that would be like a carpenter saying he was a “hammer carpenter.” We need many different tools that will work for different patients and different problems.

Meaningless Pseudo-Diagnoses

DB: Can you talk a bit about your battles to get deeper and more sophisticated understandings of trauma treatment into the professional arena? Your book recounts the research you did that identified a traumatized population quite distinct from the combat soldiers and accident victims for whom the PTSD diagnosis had been created.
Bv: Yes, well, in the early 1990’s our PTSD work group for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders voted nineteen to two to create a new diagnosis for victims of interpersonal trauma: “Disorders of Extreme Stress, Not Otherwise Specified” (DESNOS), or “Complex PTSD” for short. But when the DSM-IV was published in May 1994 the diagnosis did not appear in the final product.
Fifteen years later, in 2009, we lobbied to have “Developmental Trauma Disorder” listed in the DSM-5. We marshaled a lot of support, such as that from the National Association of State Mental Health Program Directors, who serve 6.1 million people annually, with a combined budget of $29.5 billion.

Everybody who holds forth should have a practice, otherwise you get seduced by your ideas and don’t get confronted with the limits of your ideas in clinical practice.
Their letter of support concluded: “We urge the American Psychiatric Association to add developmental trauma to its list of priority areas to clarify and better characterize its course and clinical sequelae and to emphasize the strong need to address developmental trauma in the assessment of patients.”
It was turned down also, and a lot of criticism of DSM-5’s approach has since been levied and they have lost credibility from a variety of professional sources.
DB: You recently published the results of an international survey of clinicians on the clinical significance of a Developmental Trauma Disorder diagnosis. Can you tell us why it might be so beneficial to have such a diagnosis?
Bv: Because it would help us to start focusing on helping kids feel safe and in control , rather than labeling them with meaningless pseudo-diagnoses like oppositional defiant disorder, impulse control disorder, self-injury disorder, etc.
DB: A significant part of your career at the Trauma Center has been working with traumatized children. There is a lot in your book relevant to work with children.
Bv: Yes, with Joseph Spinazzola and Julian Ford, we are involved in studies through the Complex Trauma Treatment Network of the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, which now is comprised of 164 institutions in almost all States.
DB: You are doing so much traveling with international teaching, you are involved in ongoing research, and you have quite a large staff at the Trauma Center in Boston to manage.
Bv: About 40 people are working at the trauma center now.
DB: Are you still personally able to do one-on-one clinical work or only have a supervisory role?
Bv: Everybody who holds forth should have a practice, otherwise you get seduced by your ideas and don’t get confronted with the limits of your ideas in clinical practice.

Posttraumatic Growth and Aliveness

DB: I’ve always liked the subtitle of Peter Levine’s book Waking the Tiger: Through Trauma Into Aliveness. Others are talking about “posttraumatic growth.”
Bv: That’s what the New York Times article should have been about. The guy they described so poorly actually recouped his life. People get better by befriending themselves. People can leave the trauma behind if they learn to feel safe in their bodies—they can feel the pleasure to know what they know and feel what they feel. The brain does change because of trauma and now we have tools to help people be quiet and present versus hijacked by the past. The question is: Will these tools become available to most people?
DB: You are certainly doing your part, Bessel, by being so very active and productive. I counted 35 workshops out-of-town on your calendar for 2014, in addition to your teaching at the various medical schools in Boston, at the Trauma Center and a new certification program. Right now you are about to embark on a 10-day bo

Brad Strawn on Integrating Religion and Psychotherapy

The New Conversation

Greg Arnold: You're a professor of integration of theology and psychology at Fuller Theological in Pasadena. You’ve written extensively on the integration of psychology and theology and just co-edited the book, Christianity & Psychoanalysis: A New Conversation. From the perspective of religion on the one hand and psychology on the other, tell me about this new conversation. What was the old conversation, and how does this new conversation set itself apart?
Brad Strawn: Well, there are a lot of conversations going on in this area, and one of the points of this book is to try to be particular and specific. So we're not talking about all of clinical psychology, but about psychoanalytic psychology or psychotherapy, and we asked each of the contributors to be specific about their own Christianity because there are Christianities. There is Catholicism, Anglicanism, Anabaptism, there's Reform, Wesleyan, and the list goes on and on.
GA: Yes, of course.
BS: Part of what we mean by new, however, is that in the history of the relationship between psychoanalysis and Christianity, beginning with Freud, religion has been considered a way that we protected ourselves from the anxiety of fate and those things that we can’t control.
In the history of the relationship between psychoanalysis and Christianity, beginning with Freud, religion has been considered a way that we protected ourselves from the anxiety of fate and those things that we can’t control.
He ultimately captured all of this in his understanding of the Oedipal Complex—the God in the sky is the great patriarch that we project things into. As we grow up, just as a child grows up and eventually doesn't need the father, we also as a society and as a culture would grow out of our need for religion. Science for Freud becomes the new religion, the new way of knowing.

What we argue in the book is that changes in philosophy, in theology and in psychology have allowed for a much more relational understanding of all of those areas. So now we don't have to pathologize religion, but we can recognize that religion serves important functions in culture and there is actually room for it to be considered a viable way of knowing. This allows new conversations to emerge; it’s no longer about psychopathology, but about human flourishing, human knowing, human relatedness, and health. So religion can be a healthy way of interacting with the world.
GA: When you say it like that, it illustrates the common ground between the ostensible purpose of psychotherapy and psychology at large, and what we traditionally consider the goals of religion: Human flourishing.
BS: Right.
GA: It’s good to hear that modern philosophy has shifted to facilitate that. But you did hit on one important criterion for the new conversation, and that’s Christianities. When Freud was saying we're going to grow out of this, how did that contrast with what you're aiming for, which is integration?
BS: Freud had this image of religion as fairly primitive. There were a lot of complex intersecting realities going on at the time, and he was reacting to a number of them. It wasn't a great time to be a Jew, obviously. He ended up fleeing to England to save his own life, which many of his colleagues also had to do, and saw Christianity as part of the problem, which it was.
GA: Sure, but he characterized it as this singular monolithic Christianity with a capital C. How does that get challenged in this new conversation?
BS: It would have been difficult for him to conceive of religion that had a mature component to it. What’s helpful about Christianities is that it opens up the conversation to many other ways of seeing things. There are immature forms of religious experience and mature forms. Erich Fromm was a disciple of Freud, but he went in a very different direction, allowing for the idea of mature religions. D.W. Winnicott is another psychoanalytic thinker who conceives of the maturation of religion. He himself grew up in a Wesleyan tradition and held to it throughout his life to some degree, even though he doesn't espouse much particularity in terms of faith per se.

I think that’s what we get when philosophy, theology, and psychology begin to open up this idea that there are different ways of knowing. We can borrow from the ways that people talk about culture these days. We no longer see certain cultures as being “primitive,” but instead talk about the particularities of a culture. What are the indigenous psychologies within a particular culture or ethnicity or race that cause people to see the world in particular ways? We wouldn't want to talk about them as being immature or primitive. We would want to say, "What do they add to the conversation?"

When I talk to people who aren't religious I say,
"Think about religion as a form of culture that brings particular ways of seeing the world and conceptualizing things."
"Think about religion as a form of culture that brings particular ways of seeing the world and conceptualizing things." It's not true or false. It's just what it is. I think that's been helpful for people, particularly those outside of the religious dialogue.

Therapy is a Moral Discourse

GA: I love the idea of borrowing from our evolving vocabulary about culture, especially in our profession of psychotherapy. We've got a huge vernacular for talking about culture in the therapy room and we can think of religion as a culture and treat it the same way. Intersectionalities, all these blossoming identities, and there's no one integration of psychology and faith because there's no one faith. They're all situated. Let’s take it a step further. Can we, as therapists, view our handling of our own religion and our clients' religion as one more facet of multi-cultural competence, or is there any reason we want to treat it differently than the other trainings we have about multicultural competence?
BS:
I tend not to use the word “competent.” I don't think we can become competent because there are too many cultures and too many religions.
I tend not to use the word “competent.” I don't think we can become competent because there are too many cultures and too many religions. I think we sometimes fool ourselves that we can know enough. When my African-American client who is Muslim is talking, what I know is that this person has a particular way of seeing the world, and my job is to try to understand to the best of my ability how they see the world and where they’re experiencing problems. Where they’re getting caught up in ways of seeing the world that are in conflict with their culture—for example being religious in a secular culture—and helping them figure out how to navigate that conflict.

I believe that psychotherapy is essentially a kind of a moral discourse between two people. The therapist has a particular way of understanding the oughts and shoulds of the world, and the client does as well. We don't do ourselves any good pretending that we can bracket that and leave that out of the room. We have to be honest about that, and at times bring it into the room so we can have open and honest conversations. Not that we as therapists impose that on our clients, but if we don't own where we're coming from, we may in fact be more likely to unconsciously or covertly impose our views on our clients. That's what colonialism was, right? A “white” and “right” way of seeing the world that we now know isn’t the truth.
GA: So it’s important to identify where you're coming from in your own faith tradition, no matter where it is.
BS: Exactly.
GA: Where does the non-religious practitioner fit into this? Can they contribute to the effort to integrate psychology and faith? What does the interfaith dialogue need to be?
BS: A former colleague of mine who is now passed, Randy Sorensen, did some research where he found that good therapy impacted religious clients positively based not on whether the therapist was religious or not, but how open the therapist was to the client's religious experience.
It's the way they approach their clients' religion rather than whether they are religious or not. It's the respect they show for it, the same way they would show respect for a client's culture.
If they didn't pathologize the client's religious experience like you wouldn't pathologize someone's cultural experience, but welcomed it hospitably and made it a place where the client could then explore that in a non-judgmental way, people came out feeling more positive and open about their religious experience than with those practitioners who didn't allow it to be an open and non-judgmental kind of dialogue. I think that's very helpful for non-religious therapists to keep in mind—it's the way they approach their clients' religion rather than whether they are religious or not. It's the respect they show for it, the same way they would show respect for a client's culture.

Religion can, of course, be used in pathological ways, and good therapy ought to help people disconnect from that. But that's not going to be possible if the therapist doesn't want to talk about it or comes in with too many a priori assumptions about religion. So that's where a secular or non-religious therapist can actually contribute to this dialogue, and particularly contribute to good psychotherapeutic work by welcoming a client's religion the same way they would welcome the client's culture or gender or sexual orientation.
GA: So multicultural awareness and sensitivity is going to put us in good stead there. There are lots of ways we can mess therapy up by being closed, rigid, biased, not having identified our own location. Can you talk more about what you see being the positive outcomes for the client when the therapist is aware and open?
BS: What some of the research seems to indicate is that clients are able to examine not only their religious tradition in the way that impacts their psychology and vice versa, but their image of God can also be transformed over the course of therapy. Religious people, like everyone else, often come to therapy because something has happened in their life, or life isn’t working out the way they expected it would. Well, for a religious person, that raises issues of, "Who is God then and where is God and how does God function in the world?" It may be that they've come in with some ideas about God and religion that were functional and helpful for a while, but now are not helpful and functional anymore. That doesn't mean that their earlier thoughts are bad or pathological, but it means that they've got to expand and develop and grow like anything in our lives. It doesn't mean they have to jettison their faith—I think some people feel like they have to leave their faith or say that there is no God anymore—but they can evolve their understanding of God and religion. It's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but sifting through the dirty bathwater. A good therapist, whether he or she is secular or religious or of a different religion than their client, can create the space that allows that to happen in ways that are therapeutic.

So Many People Believe in God

GA: So we can get over feeling guilty about religion being on the table, or this idea that it’s not valid to bring religion into the therapy process. It's appropriate for psychotherapy to really work with that.
BS: I think so. We have data that suggests so many people believe in some kind of God—in the United States at least. People are religious. We could get into a whole debate about religion versus spirituality, but in general many people have these religious-spiritual inclinations. So to feel guilty that we're talking about religion seems to be a major mistake. It's part of people's identity, so it needs to be on the table. To leave it out is like leaving out talking about sexuality. How can we do that? That's a whole part of what makes people who they are.
GA: Would you agree that it’s kind of taboo, though, to bring religion into psychotherapy? From the secular side religion is often seen as a kind of pathology, but even on the religious side, people may feel like those issues are better dealt with in a church or a synagogue or a mosque. What has your experience been?
BS: I think sometimes for the religious and even maybe the non-religious, we don't always know what to do with the APA ethic codes. We're so afraid of imposing our views, of taking away the client's autonomy, but we’re beginning to learn how we can hold a client's autonomy in mind even as we're helping them think about the variety of issues they are dealing with. I don't think we do them a favor by not bringing things into the room. I had a professor who would say, "We can expose things without imposing." Of course, that's an art form. There's always a danger that we're going to impose. But I think there is plenty of evidence that therapists impose without even saying things at times, or their very theories have implicit ethics within them that we never think about—for example, the ethic of individualism or autonomy. Those are ethics. Those say things about how people ought to live their lives. So all of our underlying points of view need to come under this more post-modern lens. We need to own what we’re doing.

It’s true that some religious practitioners think that these issues should be left for the church, but I also think that some religious practitioners don't want to bring up religion because it becomes personally challenging to them. It challenges their own countertransference. So if their client is questioning, say, the existence of God or how God works in the world and it's uncomfortable to the religious practitioner, he or she may unconsciously avoid it because it's anxiety provoking. That's something that they need to work out in their own therapy and supervision.
GA: Because they're getting in the way of what's best for the client. I'm glad you admit it's really hard and it's a danger to impose. It's an art. You've got to really do a lot of work. How are we doing as a field at including this in the therapy room, at not imposing, and what can a practicing clinician out there do if they're not in training anymore to advance this effort to integrate faith and psychology and to be more culturally sensitive?
BS: The good news is there are a lot of good resources out there—everything from various models of integrating faith and psychology to how people actually work clinically from various modalities. You can find cognitive behaviorists and how they work with religion, or psychoanalytic or family systems practitioners. Even the American Psychiatric Association is publishing resources about the language of spirituality. I think that's a good way to start and it helps clinicians listen in different ways for issues of spirituality, but the larger issue is still this fear of imposing.
How do we manage the issue that morality and ethics are a part of every psychotherapy?
How do we manage the issue that morality and ethics are a part of every psychotherapy? The most responsible thing we can do is own that and figure out how we use it in appropriate ways that doesn't become coercive, what one of my colleagues would say violent to the therapy.
GA: Absolutely.
BS: But that doesn't mean falling back into this kind of Freudian myth that we can be objective blank screens. I think this is true even with cognitive behavioral people. They pretend that they are not bringing themselves to the work, but they are. So how do we most effectively bring ourselves to the work? That would be the question I'd like to spend more time thinking about.

Talking Out of Both Sides of Your Mouth

GA: This idea of an objective blank slate is a liability. It's made us at risk for this kind of violent idea that we're mechanics operating on machines and we've just got to get out the owner's manual and look up in the appendix of how to fix this machine. Morally, we have to own what we're bringing to the room. But how do you integrate your whole individual philosophy of embodiedness and embeddedness with the DSM and empirically supported treatments and evidence-based practice? How has that balancing act gone for you personally and professionally?
BS: That’s a great question. I hedge my bets by rarely using insurance as a clinician, which means I rarely have to provide a diagnosis. I think that's how a lot of people work these days because they're so disillusioned. Unfortunately there are a lot of people working in settings where that's not possible for them, and I always wonder if they are just talking out of both sides of their mouths as a necessity. They use the language they need for the reimbursement but they continue to think a different way. I think that's probably how a lot of clinicians tend to operate.

I think there's a whole subset of people who want to keep thinking about therapy as art and to do that we have to be creative in other ways. So maybe we don't take insurance, but maybe we have sliding scales that are ridiculously low at times. I see people at times working for well under the going rate for Pasadena. I work a lot with students from other clinical programs who are in training who I hope are going to go out and do the same kind of thing because they've experienced that with me. Here at Fuller we think a lot about how our students can use the best clinical training they can with underserved populations.
It's almost a Trojan horse model—they do the work that they have to do, but they're still bringing their deeper vision to the work.
It's almost a Trojan horse model—they do the work that they have to do, but they're still bringing their deeper vision to the work.

Good therapies always have this core of humanism in them. They're real-life people here that we're trying to help and we're creative and we're flexible, but maybe there are some things that some people just can't do. They won't do. I can't see myself ever working in a setting where I had to use an empirically validated treatment manual. But that's me. That's not everyone's story. I'm not trying to be dogmatic about this.
GA: The medical model has brought about a real identity crisis in the field. A lot of people are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
BS:
Morality is not just a concern of religious people. There is secular morality.
Morality is not just a concern of religious people. There is secular morality.

I came to psychology because my experience in the church, the Christian church, was that there was a lot of good information about what one shouldn't do, but its models for transformation were a bit thin. You might argue that’s because my particular Christian tradition had disconnected itself from some of the ancient wisdom of Christianity.

What I discovered studying psychology in college was that it was offering models for how people transform and change. I thought, if I could bring that together with my Christian faith, what a powerful model that would be. So that's one of the ways I've understood what psychology could bring to religion.
GA: So what could a church pastor learn from studying psychology?
BS: Well, think of group therapy and all of the wonderful tools it has brought to church communities. Most churches now have therapeutic support groups for people struggling in various ways, and the psychological issues get pretty tricky in groups, really fast. Yalom’s theories on interpersonal processes in group therapy have been tremendously helpful for both lay people and professionals in helping to guide group work. We think about group dynamics, about transference, about procedural learning, about behavior.

Sometimes the church can be just as prejudiced and afraid of psychology as psychologists can be of religion, so we’ve needed translators who could bridge the gap and show that these secular theories are not dangerous or bad or a threat their faith.
GA: Do you think it’s useful for pastors to get psychotherapy training?
BS: Well, I think one of the things you have to dig down into is their presuppositions about truth. At Fuller, where I teach, we say all truth is God's truth. So it doesn't matter if Freud or Ellis or Skinner discovered it. Or a contemporary neuroscientist discovered it. If it's true, then it's useful. Of course this can be used in improper ways as well, so again we're back to ethics.

Some Christian groups dichotomize between nature and grace—God is involved in grace, but nature is something entirely different; psychology is nature and therefore not useful. All we need is in the Bible. That’s one example.

Other Christianities—and this is why Christianities is a really important concept—would say there is no dichotomy between God and nature. The person who discovered penicillin may or may not have been a Christian, but who cares? Penicillin cures and heals people, and curing and healing and restoring humans is part of the religious impetus some groups would argue.

If I were working with a pastoral care group, I would try to assess how they think about nature and how they think about how God works in the world and would try to tease out whether they think that all truth is God's truth or only the truth that comes from scripture.

Community and Interconnectedness

GA: But this inclination to dichotomize is not just a religious inclination. There's this sort of militaristic atheism that states: "We're science. They're not." And that's just as damaging and unproductive.

But I think also where I'm seeing it from my non-religious side of the fence is this call to morality or this idea that Christianities, many of them modern, mature, intelligent, contemporary Christianities, have a great authority and ability to speak to the call to humanism and bringing morality back into our endeavor.
BS: One of the things that modern Christianity can also help with is a call back to community and interconnectedness. Ethics can become very individualistic. The great philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre says our ethic is primarily what he would call emotivism, which is “whatever feels good to me is right.” I think a lot of psychological theories have that ethos embedded within them, whereas many religions posit that your individual rights end at your communal responsibility. Victor Frankl said this years ago in one of his books.
GA: The counterpart is this kind of just reification of the individual, a kind of inward, isolating journey to health. That mental health is achieved inwardly. So your work is saturated with this sensitivity to how healing relationships are and can be. It has to happen between persons, not within persons.
BS:
One of my frustrations with contemporary spirituality is that it tends to be, at least in the United States, so individualistic and inward—"Well, as long as I'm not hurting anyone else it's okay."
One of my frustrations with contemporary spirituality is that it tends to be, at least in the United States, so individualistic and inward—"Well, as long as I'm not hurting anyone else it's okay." But what counts as hurting people? It may not seem like you’re hurting people by consuming all these resources, but in truth you really are hurting people. We've got to come back to this communal ethos. One of the things that's essential to me as a psychologist and a Christian is this idea that we are always inextricably linked to others, and that's both how problems come about and how healing comes about. There's just no isolated self. We are always selving and always contextualized and always embedded and always embodied.

I suppose some would call me radical in that sense. I have colleagues who really cling to an individualistic psychology and spirituality. I think you can make the argument that much of contemporary evangelicalism in the US is quite individual and that the worship experiences they have are in fact quite consumeristic. They're just consuming Jesus—it's sort of the person and God or the person and Christ—which I don't really think is what the gospel is all about.

Folks who think more like me tend to be theologians and hopefully more will come into the integration-of-psychology conversation. In the book I wrote with Warren Brown, The Physical Nature of Christian Life, we talk about how there really is no isolated Christian, no isolated person, and that religion is always going to be experienced and needs to be experienced in these communal sorts of ways.
GA: Before reading your work I'd never encountered a fully Christian thinker espousing this deeply relational embodied philosophy. I'm finding I'm confronting my own prejudices about Christianity as I do more investigating. I think that my former critiques of Christianity have been toward this more immature Christianity, the more consumerist Christianity, not having been aware of the more mature Christianities, as you call them.
BS: I think that Christianity, like anything else, is also a sort of developmental process. James Fowler, who taught at Emory University, compared his work with Kohlberg's work on stages of moral reasoning and suggested that there are stages that religious people go through. So maybe thinking about faith as individual and private is a developmental phase. Maybe as people grow and develop and have more life experience, they will come to recognize that life is more interconnected, relational, communal. However, Fowler would say, and I'd agree, that not everybody moves to the same level.

I think those Christians who embrace this relational theology may be better at being hospitable to people who are not of their faith tradition than those who don't. I think there's a more protective defensive way of viewing others when you see religion as kind of ethereal, as spiritual, as otherworldly, as “what I do now to get to another place.” If bodies don’t matter and we’re just waiting for the afterlife, then I don’t really care about my body or your body; I don’t care if you’re hungry or poor or living in an oppressive regime. In other words, the here and now is not my focus. But if I think of religion as experienced in the here and now, as embodied not just in the soul but in the body, in the senses, then the call of God is more of an action, a call to love all people, whatever they believe, or whatever they come from, or whatever they look like.

Seeing Beyond the Soul

GA: So it’s seeing beyond the soul?
BS: Right. If bodies are important, if souls aren't saved but humans are saved, then humans need to be fed and clothed and protected and not raped and not abused as children and not under the oppression of a dictator. The implications of the two ways of thinking can be profound. I have some friends who ruin my theory, however. They cling to an individualistic soul concept with fervor, and yet they're the ones visiting people in prison, bringing food to the hungry. So there are no absolutes here.
GA: Do you have any closing thoughts you want to leave our readers with about why this is important, what they can do, what you've learned in your efforts?
BS: I think just that there is a lot of room for both religious and non-religious clinicians and researcher to help each other. At the end of the day we're trying to help people live more productive, healthy, flourishing lives. But we need to ask what we mean by healthy and flourishing, and where did we get those ideas? There are all of these underlying belief systems that we’re not owning.
A lot of therapists who say they care about relationships might not realize that some of the theories they're practicing are highly individualistic.
A lot of therapists who say they care about relationships might not realize that some of the theories they're practicing are highly individualistic. But if they could take a look at that, I think they could then begin to make some adjustments and think about it differently.

Erich Fromm, in his book on psychoanalysis and religion, made a distinction between cure of the soul and social adjustment therapy. For him, social adjustment therapy was just helping a person function better in the crazy society they already live in. His question was: Is that really what psychotherapy is supposed to be about, or is it about creating people who flourish and can become thinkers and can transcend some of the disease that might be in the culture around them? So one of the things I'd like to end with is this idea that psychologists are in a particularly interesting position to think about ourselves in the area of social justice as people who work for social equality. But to do that we're going to have to step back and critique our own discipline.
GA: Beautiful. I for one welcome the inclusive conversation, the new conversation. I'm happy to be a part of it. Thank you so much for sharing your time.
BS: Thank you. It's been a pleasure to chat with you.

Thomas Moore on the Soul of Psychotherapy

Therapy Isn't Healing

Deb Kory: Thomas Moore, you are a writer, a theologian, a psychotherapist, a musician, a former monk, and a professor. You lecture widely on incorporating aspects of the soul into daily life, and have written many books on the subject, including the bestseller, Care of the Soul. You've just released a book called A Religion of One’s Own, which seems in part intended to bring meaning back to the word and to argue against the secularization of modern life. Since our audience is primarily psychotherapists, I'd like to first ask you about psychotherapy: How you define it and what role do you see it playing in bringing soul back into the world, and into your clients?
Thomas Moore: I go back, as I always do in my books, to etymologies. I like to think about how people first thought about the use of the word since the very beginning. The word therapy has been around for a couple of thousand years at least, and originally among the Greeks it meant to care for or attend to. I like that meaning of the word. It never meant to heal or to fix or anything like that. In fact, there's a passage in Plato where a student asked Socrates what he means by therapy, and Socrates says, "It's like someone who takes care of horses. They give them water and food and take them for some exercise and clean their stalls. That kind of thing is therapy."

So it's an interesting definition of the word. Then if you put psyche with it—psyche is the word for soul—you get psychotherapy, to care for the soul, to attend to the soul. That's how I see therapy.
I'm not interested in helping a person get along in life, and I'm not interested in helping them improve or get better as a person. That's more of an ego kind of project. I'm interested in the soul, which is deeper.
I'm not interested in helping a person get along in life, and I'm not interested in helping them improve or get better as a person. That's more of an ego kind of project. I'm interested in the soul, which is deeper.

When someone comes to me for therapy, I'm always listening at a very deep level, because I want to know what their soul is hungry for. I listen to their stories and look for where they are getting in the way of their soul’s unfolding. What is trying to emerge? Where are they headed in spite of themselves?
DK: So you are against the whole idea of therapists being healers?
TM: Yes, pretty much.
DK: Can you say more about that? Is it because it’s too omnipotent a role?
TM: Yes. I think the idea of care is different from helping or healing. Healing sounds like you're really going to once and for all fix this person and resolve their problems or get rid of their pain. Sometimes, in fact most of the time, what I feel I have to do is be with the person in their suffering or their pain, and in the moment I may hope that we get to the point where they don't suffer anymore, but I don't think I can get there by being the hero and thinking that I can get rid of their pain. I can't. But together what we can do is see what's going on and, as they get to be closer to their deeper life, their attitude in life shifts and they usually make different life decisions. Those things tend to resolve the pain and the suffering.
DK: So you don’t necessarily feel responsible for what happens in therapy?
TM: I don't feel responsible, no.
I'm rather shocked when I hear from some of my clients that they've been in therapy with people who tell them what they should be doing. I can't imagine it because I don't know—who am I?
It’s tempting at times to tell people what I think they should do, but I don't think that's my place. I'm rather shocked when I hear from some of my clients that they've been in therapy with people who tell them what they should be doing. I can't imagine it because I don't know—who am I? I don't have any special insight or any kind of revelation about people's lives. So what I do is I go with them and I try to get a glimpse of who they are and what's wanting to emerge.
DK: That’s in striking opposition to all of the manualized and “evidence-based” psychotherapy that’s currently in vogue.
TM: I'm not interested in any of that.
DK: You're kind of outside of that system altogether.
TM: Totally on the outside of that system.
DK: It sounds like part of what you've been trying to do throughout the course of your career is to critique that system, because it's in every profession in one way or another. Perhaps that’s what you mean by secularization?
TM: Yes, it is.
DK: It’s almost as if science, itself, has become a religion.
TM: I think when you secularize, the ego comes to the foreground, in the sense of, “I know what's going on. I need to be in control.” My approach has been more what I would consider a religious approach, in the deepest sense—not as part of any particular religion, but rather appreciating and acknowledging that there are things going on that I don't understand and can't control, but I can help with by being an attentive listener. I respect what's happening in a person, and I try not to listen to it with the thought that I know what's best or I know what's healthy. I never use words like that—“healthy” or “correct” or “right.” I watch my language carefully and try to let the soul of a person be revealed. When they see who they are at that soul level, they can make better decisions for themselves.

A lot of people have not had much education in psychology, and they don't really understand too much what's going on with their emotional life or their relationships. So we have to go deep into it where they can see what's happening, and then make their own decisions.

“Who Wants to Adapt to a World That is Crazy?”

DK: You also said that you're not interested in helping people get by in the world. Is part of that because the world is kind of nuts?
TM: That's certainly a part of it. Who wants to adapt to a world that is crazy? I've been saying ever since I first wrote Care of the Soul that if you do care for your soul you're going to be quite eccentric because, for one thing, that's where your individuality is.
If you do care for your soul you're going to be quite eccentric because, for one thing, that's where your individuality is.
The more you get in touch with your own soul, the more individual you become. Jung called this work individuation, and I think that makes sense because you become more of an individual from being in tune with who you are.

Another piece of this modern approach that I don't agree with is this idea of having some kind of standard for normalcy. We have these standards that are expressed in these lists of disorders, the DSM-5, but behind all of that is the assumption that there is such a thing as being normal and well-adjusted. I would probably have a very different type of DSM myself because I'm not interested in adjustment and being normal so much as really being in touch with that deep place. People may not fit in very well when they do that. They may be odd, and their friends may wonder what's going on with them.
DK: Do you see yourself as radical?
TM: No, not at all. But I was in Berkeley a couple of months ago, and I was at what was considered, I guess, a radical radio station, and I was just talking about things that, to me, seem quite ordinary. Afterwards the two people interviewing me said that I fit into their program quite well because it was also radical. But I don’t see myself as radical; I’m quite traditional.
DK: Am I right that you didn't get any kind of traditional psychological training? You didn't go through a psychotherapy school, right?
TM: Well, my training was actually in Rogerian therapy. I did a lot of counseling work when I was doing my PhD in religion. I did my religious studies work at Syracuse University, which is a very broad program. I studied world religions in one phase of it and depth psychology in another phase and the arts, especially literature, in the third part. These three parts came together to be the focus of my study of religion. When I was doing that, it occurred to me—I don't know why—that the only way I could really learn psychology would be to also train as a therapist. So I did.

A lot of my work was in counseling psychology, which was mainly based on Carl Rogers' approach. I did a lot of coursework and supervised practice, practicums, and led groups. Usually you can get a license if you have a PhD in religion or if you have some background in religion plus some psychological training, and I had both, so I put those together and got my counselor’s license.
DK: Did you decide at a certain point to leave the constraints of being licensed or are you still licensed?
TM: No, I just moved to another state, and the state I moved to requires the kind of therapy that I just don't understand or really want to do. So I no longer do therapy as such as a licensed therapist. I counsel people on this work of the soul based on my books, and I tell people that I'm not a therapist in the sense that people do it today and that I can't do that kind of therapy anymore. I mean, I probably would do it if the system were set up in a way that I could fit in, but I can't, so I don't. In fact, it’s just not what I do at all.
DK: What is it about the system that you can't abide?
TM: Well, a number of things. I'm not interested in quantified studies at all. That's never been a part of my life. I'm trained in the classics. I know Greek mythology very well. I know history and the history of philosophy and theology and medicine.
I’ve never become a Jungian analyst because I feel it’s too narrow for me. I don't want to have to fit in with the language and ideas of Jungianism.
That gives you a great deal to work with. Anyone who knows Jungian psychology would know that my background in religion and mythology are perfect for a Jungian analyst. I've studied Jung for years. In fact, a week ago I was in Canada speaking to a Jung society, and I'm going in a couple of days to a Jung society in the Southern United States. I speak to Jung groups frequently because I do know Jung well. They're interested in my background in religious studies and the arts and also my work over all these years, all these books about the soul. So that’s an area where I could fit in more easily, but I’ve never become a Jungian analyst because I feel it’s too narrow for me. I don't want to have to fit in with the language and ideas of Jungianism.

A Religion of One's Own

DK: Your most recent book, A Religion of One's Own, is that a play on Virginia Woolf?
TM: Yes, it is.
DK: My sense from reading it and from reading many of your works is that every system of belief or philosophy is too narrow, that you're fundamentally ecumenical. You love to dive deeply into various traditions, but you’re not interested in being a certified member of anything.
TM: I don't think anyone should be confined to one particular system of belief.
If you really want to be someone who is alive in what you're doing and not just following a system, then you want to make it your own in some way.
I wrote A Religion of One's Own to make that clear. It could also be “a psychology of one’s own.” It’s important to honor the traditions and you can study any branch of psychology you want, but I think if you really want to be someone who is alive in what you're doing and not just following a system, then you want to make it your own in some way. I happened to take it pretty far in making it my own.
DK: You're a little eccentric.
TM: Yes. That's exactly it, and that's just the way it is. I'm surprised because I'm not a radical type. I'm kind of an easygoing person. I don't challenge the world too much except in my writing. In my style, I write a lot of things that go against the themes of the times and the spirit of the times, but I don't do it in a style or a manner that is confrontational. I simply present and say, "Well, if you want this, great. If you don't, forget it."
DK: So your style isn't confrontational, but your ideas are or could be perceived as such.
TM: Yes.
DK: I’m imagining with this recent book you’re being critiqued both from the Left and the Right.
TM: Yes.
DK: There’s a fair amount of religiophobia on the Left and there are a lot of therapists, in my experience, who harbor a not-so-subtle contempt for religious people. Or rather, some religions are considered okay: Buddhists are fine, Mormons are not. This really goes unchallenged in therapy culture.
TM: Yes, I agree.
DK: And then on the Right you’re probably just seen as an apostate. Are you getting challenged on that at all on this book tour?
TM: A little bit, but very little actually. People get the idea right away, and they're interested in it. The majority of people who hear this idea say to me, "Well, this is what I've been doing and thinking all along, and it's really helpful for me to have it articulated."
I’ve had feedback from people saying that they don't need religion. The secular world is all they need.
That's the response I get most of the time. Now, maybe there are people out there who are more traditional in their religious practice who just aren't interested and so aren't talking to me. On the other hand, I’ve certainly had feedback from people saying that they don't need religion. The secular world is all they need.
DK: I'm thinking of people like Bill Maher, and a lot of these so-called “new atheists” who think that religion is the root of all evil.
TM: The problem I have with them is that they usually pick a very childlike or fundamentalist type of religion and critique it as if it stands for all religions. Take me on, you know? Years ago, actually, I tried to have a debate with Carl Sagan because he was saying that a lot that goes by the name of religion is superstition. We had set up a debate, but then just at the point when we were making the arrangements he developed cancer, so it never happened.

Critiquing the most simple-minded and fundamentalist forms of religion is easy. I critique them, too, and have a lot of that kind of atheism in me as well. I have no problem with that; but when you look more deeply at the richness and depth of so many traditions, when you get right down to the subtleties, I'd hate to see us turn into a totally secular world.

DK: How do you deal with the reflexive antagonism that people have toward religion? If you were speaking to a group of therapists who were more of the secular type, how would you argue for integrating more of this soul work into therapy?
TM: I have worked with psychiatrists and other kinds of therapists, and a lot of them come to me and they want to open up. They want something more in their practice, but they don't know what that would be. I try to give them background, history, a lot of examples, a lot of material—to let them see the intelligence of the spiritual traditions. I present it to them as someone who really loves these traditions, but I'm not a member. I'm not defending them. I'm not that kind of person.
DK: You're not an “ist” or into “isms.”
TM:
I don’t actually participate in the Catholic Church, but that’s because I think they don't want me. I'm not sure it's because I don't want them.
No. I'm not. I'm not in one of these traditions either. Though I sometimes call myself a Zen Catholic, because in my own life, I was born into Catholicism. It's not something you just set aside intentionally; it's something that's just part of you. I don’t actually participate in the Catholic Church, but that’s because I think they don't want me. I'm not sure it's because I don't want them.
DK: Do you think you'd be excommunicated?
TM: Oh, yeah. There is plenty of grounds for that.

With therapists, though, I try to give them an intelligent approach to how to include spiritual matters in psychotherapy. I try to show them that you can't really separate spirit from soul. I talk about the difference between those things and how you can't separate them.

The Planet Has a Soul

DK: Can you talk about the difference between spirit and soul?
TM: Well, it's dicey in a way. In the traditions that I follow, the spirit takes us away from our bodies and our appetites and our relationships and our everyday lives in order to have a big vision, a cosmology, a cosmic vision to ask questions about how the world came to be or how to live and to meditate and pray. These are all things that take us up and away.
DK: Those are spiritual.
TM: Yes, and these things are good, very valuable and important.
The spirit takes us away from our bodies and our appetites and our relationships and our everyday lives in order to have a big vision, a cosmology, a cosmic vision to ask questions about how the world came to be or how to live and to meditate and pray.
But the soul at its depth has not been developed very much. There are many traditions that deal more with the depth of our everyday life, like the importance of home and the deep fantasies and emotions connected with home. Memories of home and the need to be at home and to feel at home with what we're doing, the importance of family and feeling family even if it's not literal. It might be the family spirit at work or in your town, to be living a sensual life or a sexual life. A lot of spiritual people have trouble with sexuality because it's in another direction. It seems to be a problem. So what I try to do is speak for those things, for the soul. I'm also someone who loves the spiritual as well. I value both of those directions.
DK: So the soul is more grounded. It's more earthbound.
TM: Yeah, definitely grounded.
DK: Is there more of an ethical dimension to it?
TM: Yes, there are ethics, but it's a different kind of ethics because soul ethics are rooted in, let's say, your love of the planet or your love of your place, your home, or your appreciation for the individuality of people because you know people directly. That's a more heart-centered ethics. But there is another important kind of ethics, which is spiritual, which would mean you have a vision about the planet and about history and people and how we need to behave. All of that kind of thing could be very spiritual. So I like to have those two together. You need both motivations for an ethical life.
DK: Given you're deeply rooted in your own ecumenism and ethics, what do you think our role is in trying to make the world a better place? You say we aren’t healers, that we help people only in the sense of getting people connected to their soul’s hunger. What about the world beyond the therapy room? Are we bound by ethics to try to, for example, fight against climate change and all the ways humans are destroying the planet and each other? Or is that separate from our work as therapists?
TM: Let's go back to the definition of therapy: care of the soul. One interesting aspect of soul is that in the traditions about the soul, it's not just humans. The planet itself has a soul. I’ve got some documents here in my study from five or six hundred years ago that say that the planet has a soul and that the things on the planet have a soul. So if psychotherapy is care of the soul, the care of the planet is a kind of psychotherapy. Do you know what I mean? You don't just care for people or individuals.

I do a lot of work with hospitals and have been for a long time. I go into a hospital and I try to talk to the doctors and nurses especially about the importance of family because the illness a person has is a soul illness as well as a body illness, and the family plays a role because that's part of a person's deep life. It's a very important part. So we try to talk to hospitals about the importance of including the family. Not just tolerating them, but really seeing them at the very center of illness, both to heal and even being partly responsible in some ways.

A Psychotherapy of One's Own

DK: I have been licensed for about a year after a very long process, many thousands of hours of unpaid labor and studying and writing a dissertation and post-doc hours and licensing exams, and I feel a little bit like after all that time I'm starting from scratch in a way. There was a lot along the journey that simply wasn't useful and I almost had to fight to keep my soul. There were things that I brought to my clients from the very first day that I value—just a certain way of loving and being with people that I feel is the most fundamental part of the work I do—more than any theories or techniques. Yet hardly anyone ever mentioned the word “love” in all my years of training. I felt like I had to fight to retain the soul of my own work and to not get all weird and rigid and overwhelmed with the whole professional side of being a therapist.

There are people I know who are seeing 10-12 clients a day, trying to pay off school loans, pay the mortgage—it can become a real grind. In private practice therapists often don’t see other therapists at all except in passing on the way to the bathroom between clients. It can be a very lonely business and it’s easy to feel isolated from the more systemic problems of the world. I do see myself as a bit of a radical and an activist, and it doesn't align very well with this ten-clients-a-day paradigm that keeps us from connecting with each other and leaves us too exhausted to think about larger world issues.
TM: Well, you might have to define psychotherapy as your own. For example, after doing therapy for a number of years I discovered I could be a writer and live that way. But I've seen myself as a therapist-writer, in the writing itself, which I try to do in a therapeutic way. Some people don't like that, but that's just the way it is.
DK: What don't they like?
TM: People think it's not substantive enough because I don't write academically or reference research studies. I'm writing therapeutically, so it doesn't look so substantive, but the average reader knows. I get feedback all the time from people saying, "This book came to me when I really needed it." I must have heard that a hundred times in the past week.
DK: That's all the evidence you need, right?
TM: It’s a different way of being a therapist. I also learned when my books began being read around the world—today it's a small globe so the books get out there—that therapy is not a narrow thing. When I work with an individual then, I really like it because it's a piece of a much bigger work that I'm doing.

After publishing Care of the Soul twenty years ago, immediately I began getting invitations to speak at medical conferences and hospitals and medical centers. I never intended to do that.
DK: That must have been surprising.
TM: It was very surprising, but you see, that's another example of what I do.
After doing therapy for a number of years I discovered I could be a writer and live that way. But I've seen myself as a therapist-writer, in the writing itself, which I try to do in a therapeutic way.
I go into a hospital or go to a medical conference. I'm the therapist really, and I'm representing the soul of the situation. So I try to work with doctors and nurses, and I listen to them and see what's going on there and I talk to them the way I would as a therapist. I talk to them about the soul of their building, "It's not doing well right now. What can we do to make it fit into this whole process more?" So all of that, to me, is therapy. Just as Socrates says that taking care of your horses and feeding them, that's what he means by therapeia or therapy, I'd say going into a hospital or going into your own home and looking it over and seeing how it is and what it needs also is therapy.

Looking at the planet and saying the planet needs us too, and we're not going to solve the problem of global warming just by convincing people that it's a moral need or your life is at stake. We need a therapy of the world. We need to be able to say, "There is reason for this. This is your home. Get motivated. Take care of it."
DK: That's not confrontational, right? Because that's not your approach.
TM: No, I don't agree with that approach.
DK: Can you say more?
TM: When we take the confrontational approach, we polarize right away. We tend then to see ourselves as right and the other person as wrong. And then we get into some type of moralistic debate that goes nowhere.

The Passion of James Hillman

DK: I think it would be interesting for our readers to know a little bit your relationship with James Hillman. It sounds like you two were very close. He was one of your teachers?
TM: He wasn't a teacher exactly, but he was a mentor. He was a friend more than anything. I met him in 1970 and I started corresponding with him in about 1973. He was living in Zurich at the time, and was sending me articles he was writing. I had been studying Jung very intensely, but I really liked Hillman's revision of Jung, the fresh direction that he took Jung's work. Then, just by accident, he and I ended up in Dallas, Texas. I was teaching at Southern Methodist University, and he got a job at the University of Dallas. So we both ended up in the same city by a fluke and that’s when we became very good friends. We did a lot of things together socially, spent a lot of time together the two of us, and we have a very similar type of temperament. Well, not temperament, but background and interests. He was very confrontational, and so when working together it was interesting because we had two very different styles. But we were passionate about the same things.
DK: What were those passions?
TM: We were passionate about psychology moving into the culture rather than just being individual. In fact he gave up doing individual therapy after a while.
DK: I didn’t realize that.
TM: He didn't agree with it.
DK: Then what did he do?
TM: “Therapy of the world,” he would call it. There's a tradition in the old writing, it's called anima mundi, the soul of the world. He picked up that theme, and he would give lectures and work with city governments, and give talks at political meetings and he would say he was bringing a “soul orientation” toward those kinds of subjects and those concerns. When we weren't in the same place, we exchanged a lot of letters and postcards because we didn't have email in those days. We were friends for over thirty-five years.
DK: You presided over his funeral, right?
TM: I did, yes. He was Jewish and he always had interesting things to say about my Catholic background, so it was kind of surprising that he would ask me to officiate at his funeral, but I think it was based on our friendship and his knowledge that we shared so many ideas about religion and psychology.
DK: My sense is that you can feel like you have much more in common with people from other religions than your own when you come from this more ecumenical place.
TM: That could be what it was, yeah. In our conversations he was always being the depth psychologist and trying to see in a deeper way what was happening in the world around him, so I learned a lot from him just being with him and used his work pretty directly at first. One big difference between us in our work was that he didn't have a very positive opinion of the spiritual dimension. He was good at criticizing it, but didn't have a real appreciation for the spiritual—and I do. So in that way we were very different.
DK: But he was into the concept of soul, right?
TM: Yes, but not in a spiritual or religious context.

“To really love a soul, even if it's weird and strange”

DK: Can you give us a sense of how you work with clients?
TM: Well, I started off by saying before that I'm not so interested in managing a person's life. That's not what I want to do. That's not how I see psychotherapy. That's something else. Psychotherapy is care of the soul. It's therapeia, serving the soul. So when someone comes to me, from the very beginning I'm interested in their soul. What are they coming in with? What's not visible? Not even what they tell me because they don't often know that deep level of themselves. So I don't just take everything at face value, but I do look for signs and try to join them. I agree with you that it’s based on love—love of the person and love of the material and what they're going through. There's a love. I learned that from Hillman—to really love a soul, whatever's going on, even if it's weird and strange.
DK: And dark.
TM: Yeah, dark. Whatever it is, you appreciate it. So I do that, and then I would say most of the time I spend working with dreams. My work is almost all dreams. It's not interpreting dreams. I don't say, "Give me your dream, and I'll tell you what it means, and we'll apply it." But I do ask people to bring their dreams because what I hear from their dream is this deeper level. That soul level comes through in their dreams. At first it takes a while to get it because the dream images are confusing initially. After a while you get to know the individual person's set of images in their dreams. I absolutely need them. I couldn't do the work without them. The dreams give us the direction to go in and what to talk about and how to understand what's happening.
DK: Does your interest in dreams stem from your study of Jung?
TM:
I've studied the imagery in religions, their stories and narratives and rituals, so when I hear a dream, I see a lot of those rituals and stories in the dream.
I think it came from Jung, yes. When I first started reading Jung, I was really taken by his own dreams, especially what he talks about in his memoir, Memories, Dreams, Reflections. He talks there about his own dream work being central to his life. Instead of talking about what's going on in the external world, most of what he writes about is this dreamland, this deep fantasyland. It was very substantial and really made an impression on me. There was so much more there than if you just talk about what's happening on the surface.

His other work, especially his alchemical work, also draws on dreams and shows the connection between alchemy, mythology, and the dream. I've studied the imagery in religions, their stories and narratives and rituals, so when I hear a dream, I see a lot of those rituals and stories in the dream. This was Jung's method too, to compare an individual's dream to what you know about religion and mythology and even art.
DK: Do you bring those associations into the therapy and give them some context?
TM: Yes. You compare them or just see them interact with each other, and that helps you see much more of what's going on in a dream, which otherwise could be quite confusing. Jung felt that if you know myth and religion and the arts well, then you'll have a much better chance of working with dreams, and that’s just what I did. The first thing I did in my studies of religion was to read Jung’s collected works. After that I was able to study all of these religions and their traditions with Jung in mind. I was always thinking, "How do they speak about what's going on in the psyche and the soul?" I bring that background in religion to the dream work. Then I see what's going on in a person's life, and I can see the roots of it more.

Airplanes and Rivers

DK: Can you give an example?
TM: Sure. I write about this one in my book, and I got permission from the dreamer to make it public. This was a young man who came to me with some OCD, some obsessive compulsive practices, little rituals that he did.

The first dream he told me was that he saw these sharks in a river, and he originally wanted to go down to the river. It looked like a nice thing to do. But then when he saw the sharks, he backed away and went away from it. That was the first dream. Well, that tells us quite a bit really. Right away you've got a river, and a river itself is a tremendous image in the history of religion. There are so many great rivers. I'm not saying that his river was one of those, but knowing about those rivers you have a deeper sense of what it means in a dream to have to approach a river.

Very often it might be something like this river is the stream of your life or the stream of your time going on as you experience it. If there are sharks in it, you may not want to go into it. Obsessional practices sometimes look like people are afraid to really live. They have these practices that keep them at a distance, that keep them protected. So that gave us a lot of help right away in the very first ten minutes of working with him. Then we just keep going, more dreams, more stories, and we get deeper and deeper. Not just the surface behavior, but what's going on deep. We discuss the person's family life, childhood, and you see the themes there. A person only has so many themes in life, and they remain, they don’t change radically over the course of one’s life.
DK: And they remain in the dreams?
TM: They come and go. Dreams tend to be cyclical. You may have a series of dreams that have a certain type of imagery in them for maybe six months or up to four or five years, but then they may shift. Or they may come back again later in life. For example, I could talk about my own. I had a series of airplane dreams that lasted maybe eight years, and then they just stopped coming. So the dreams may not last forever, but it’s interesting when they stop. You can ask yourself, "Why did they stop right now?"
DK: Were yours plane crash dreams?
TM: No. My dreams were about trying to take off in a city. The planes would try to get into the air, but they weren't on an open runway. They were in a city trying to take off.
DK: And what did you come to understand about that?
TM: Well, I felt all along that I needed to adjust to the world more. I had to grow up, essentially. I had to live in the culture more. In fact, my books got me more and more into society, into people's lives. As I got more grounded in the world and in society, that dream no longer appeared.
DK: I also have recurring airplane dreams. I was just going to ask you about them.
TM: Yes, go for it.
DK: Mine are also usually in a city, and I witness a terrible plane crash. The context is always different but basically I witness these horrifying plane crashes over and over again, and I can't do anything about it, and I'm completely freaking out. It's devastating every time.
TM: See this is interesting. Can we talk about that for a minute?
DK: I would love that.
TM: So my first reaction to it is that the interesting thing about it is that you freak out. It's not that the plane crashes. I think it's okay that planes crash in the dream because sometimes that high-flying, that airy kind of existence has to come down and you crash. I would connect that with the Icarus myth, the story of Icarus who flew too high to the sun and his wings melted, and he crashed down to the earth. So there's a kind of crashing that takes place when you fly too high or when you're flying too long, that kind of thing. I wouldn't explain this dream that way, but these thoughts would be in my mind as I thought of our continuing conversations. So I would think, "Well, this is an issue where it may be necessary for planes to crash, but that really bothered you. You really have a hard time with that.”
DK: With the fall?
TM: Yeah, with the fall.
DK: That resonates with me.
TM: You used the word fall. That would take us into all that mythology of the fall that's in the book of Genesis, you know the fall of Adam and Eve. There's a lot written about the fall, a fall from innocence, or a fall from whatever. So there's so much there already just without even knowing anything personally about it. There's a lot there to think about before we go too far.

DK: It's so different from the experience of having someone go, "Well, that sounds like depression." So often we therapists get habituated to using language that really lacks imagination. Even in this one minute improvisational therapy that we just did, the myth and the story and the way that you responded just now was almost with a kind of excitement. As opposed to, "Tell me about your sleep hygiene” or “what are your automatic thoughts?" That kind of rote diagnostic way of relating to clients.
TM: Yes, exactly.

There's No Done

DK: Do you tend to see people for a long time? How does therapy end? You don't want to make them better, so how do you know that they're done?
TM: There's no done.
DK: There's no done?
TM: No. There's no done. There can't be.
DK: I like that.
TM:
Therapy is care for the soul, so it's not about seeing a particular person or using a particular method. A person may decide, "I'm not going to do this anymore," but one hopes they'll continue to care for their soul in some way.
Therapy is care for the soul, so it's not about seeing a particular person or using a particular method. A person may decide, "I'm not going to do this anymore," but one hopes they'll continue to care for their soul in some way. They may find another therapeutic thing to do. They may take up gardening or make movies or something that will really be good for their soul. In going through that process, they're going through a process very similar to what therapy is.

That's the beauty of Jung's idea of alchemy. He thought that alchemy was the model for the therapeutic process. We can go through any kind of alchemy any place in life. Getting a new job, that's an alchemical process to some extent. You have to process it, go through various stages, and so the therapy never has an end. That doesn't make any sense.
DK: Do you ever fire people?
TM: That's a good question. I don't recall that happening. No, I never did that. Most of the time when people want something, there are a couple of reasons why they would stop. One is that they want something they think I'm not giving them. They want something more specific. They wanted just the practical stuff. I tell them I can't do that. That's not what I do. I don't just say that. I try my best to go deeper into whatever it is they bring up.

On the other hand, some people just don't want to face it. If we had an hour talking about your dream, you'd have to face some things that are not so easy to do. When people hear about dream work, they think “oh, that sounds fun!” But it turns out to be very challenging and some people find it to be too much and so they just leave. I usually think that it's too bad because the process seemed to be getting somewhere.
DK: So you've been fired, but you've never fired anyone.
TM: No, I don't think so.
DK: Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share a bit yourself with our readers. It’s been fascinating.
TM: Thank you, it’s been a pleasure.

John Sommers-Flanagan on Clinical Interviewing and the Highly Unmotivated Client

When In Doubt, Act Like Carl Rogers

Victor Yalom: You and your wife, Rita Sommers-Flanagan, are well known in the field for your work in Clinical Interviewing, and we are delighted to be releasing your video on this topic concurrently with this interview, but before we get into that, I know you’ve also done work with mandated or otherwise unlikely and unwilling clients. Much that’s written about therapy implicitly assumes that the client is there willingly, but in many settings, clients are overtly coerced into coming by courts or institutions, or they’re strongly nudged into treatment by their parents or spouses. How do you work with these clients?
John Sommers-Flanagan, PhD: A lot of my thinking in this area sprang from the work I did in private practice, primarily with challenging teenagers. As you can imagine, many of them did not want to be in the room with me, so the challenge was, “How do I engage this person?”

I have a vivid memory of a young man who spent 30 minutes just saying, “fuck you” to me. I remember trying to go through every strategy I could think of. But probably the best of all was just to try to be like Carl Rogers and listen in an accepting way to that particular message over and over again.
VY: Did you literally reflect it back to him like Carl did, verbatim?
JSF: Well, Carl had a case known as, “The Silent Young Man,” where he’s treating this young man who doesn’t want to speak at all, and I think I was trying to channel him in that situation. So I started off by saying things like, “Well, it sounds like all of a sudden you’re pretty angry with me.” And all I got was, “Fuck You.” Then I was saying things like, “It’s clear that there was something I did or said that offended you and I’m not sure what it was.” Then I did a little self-disclosure. After about 15 or 20 minutes, he was still just saying, “fuck you,” but he started singing it to me as 15-year olds might be inclined to do. That went on for 10 minutes and I’m doing my Carl Rogers impersonation, “Well, you sound like you’re not happy, but even though you’re still swearing at me, you’re not angry any more. Now you’re happy and singing it to me.”
What happened next was really interesting. Keep in mind this was not a first session, it was a sixth, maybe seventh session. When he came in the next week, he sat down in the same chair and looked at me. I was anticipating more anger and more resistance, but the first words that he said were, “I’m just wondering, how would you feel if you were to adopt me?” Which was kind of a shocking change, and actually much more difficult than, “fuck you.”
VY: What did you say?
JSF: Well, he said it in this kind of off-handed way, and I just decided at that moment in time that I should try to be genuine and I responded with some disclosure about feeling a little nervous because this was a young man who had a pretty significant history of violence. I said, “I think I would feel pretty nervous about some of the ways that you’ve been with people.” And that launched us into a different discussion.
For me, it sort of captured how important it is to be, as Marsha Linehan might say, “radically accepting of what the client brings into the room.” Or as Rogers would say, “You just kind of work with what you’re getting.” It seemed to help us go deeper and it facilitated exploration and more engagement.

“You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist”

VY: So one thing I get from this nice story is the underlying message of really hanging in there with a client, even in an extreme case where they’re coming in and swearing at you perhaps for the whole session or half a session. Really being there and meeting them head on, and being as genuine as you can.
JSF: Absolutely. A more common example is one that I get all the time with some of the difficult young adults I work with now. A 20-year old very recently came into therapy and I said something like, “Welcome to therapy, how can I help you?” And he says, “You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist.”
This again captures a lot of the pushing and testing that happens with reluctant clients. I said, “Well, thank you very much for telling me that. I would never want to say anything that would lead you to punch me, so, how about if we decide that if I say anything that makes you want to punch me, you just tell me and I’ll not to say it anymore?”And the kid sat back and said, “Wow. Okay. That’s alright with me.”

VY: How do you conceptualize uncooperative or unwilling clients?
JSF: Well, there are few different dimensions. The first is how they’re referred. They’re often referred by a probation officer or principal, or the parents bring in someone or someone is abusing substances and has been given an ultimatum, or a spouse insists on some kind of counseling and so they come sort of unwillingly into the room.
Then there is the way that their resistance manifests in the room. Sometimes it manifests in silence. “I’m not going to talk to you and you can’t make me.” My standard response to that is what I think people have referred to as a concession where I say, “You are absolutely right. I cannot make you talk about anything in here. I especially can’t make you talk about anything you don’t want to talk about.” With teenagers, I will say that and then I’ll pause and I’ll say, “Well what do you want to talk about?” It’s like they need to posture by saying that they won’t talk, and when I concede that they’re right, that they do have control over themselves, then they tend to respond.
Other times, as I’ve just talked about, resistance is much more aggressive. I remember an older man who said, “We might get in a fight in this meeting.” That’s a much more aggressive kind of resisting the initial contact.
And, lastly, there are some people who resist through externalizing, as in, “the problem is with my school,” or “It’s with my spouse,” “it’s with work,” “it’s with everyone but me.” The challenge then is to listen empathically without getting too frustrated, because if I get frustrated and accuse the person of externalizing, oftentimes it just makes them more defensive. Those are three different categories I can think of off the top of my head: the very silent client, the very aggressive, and the very externalizing client who has a lot of trouble taking any initial responsibility for his or her problems.
VY: So aside from acceptance, empathy, and trying to really be there authentically, what are some other key principals for the therapists working with these kinds of clients?
JSF: I don’t know if you remember Mary Cover Jones, who did some of the early work with John Watson on helping young children desensitize their fears, but she said, “We have two means through which we can help decondition people. One is counter conditioning, where you have some kind of positive stimulus that you pair with the anxiety-provoking stimulus. And the other one is through participant modeling.” She wrote about that in 1924, and it was pretty amazing stuff at the time.
So I have started to reconceptualize people who are resistant to therapy as people who are anxious about the situation. I think, “How do I produce an environment that is going to counter-condition anxiety? What’s in my environment that might help people feel more comfortable and less anxious?” It’s another principal I’m often thinking of in a clinical situation.
VY: I can’t help but note that you’re pleasantly eclectic. You’re combining the epitome of humanism, the person-centered approach of Carl Rogers, with hardcore behaviorism.
JSF: I don’t consider myself a behaviorist, but I also think that if we don’t understand behavioral principals of reinforcement and classical conditioning, we can inadvertently do all the wrong things.
Foundationally, I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel.
I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel. Mary Cover Jones used cookies with children, and when I work with teenagers, I absolutely use food. I will have some food, fruit snacks or something nutritional in the room that I can offer, and in some ways I’m thinking absolutely behaviorally at that point. And I’m also thinking relationally—it’s about having a supportive, mutually collaborative relationship. We’re working together.
VY: Can you say a little more what you mean by examples of counter-conditioning anxiety?
JSF: Well, I was just looking through Skype into your space and you have some fabulous artwork. And I think it’s important to have a room that has comforting, pleasant artwork and other kinds of symbols that will help put people at ease. And if you’re working with LGBTQ people, there should be some kind of symbolic communication that you are welcoming those people into your office.
Same thing here in Montana. We work a lot with the Native American population, and it’s really important to have some sensitivity and representation in our office of that sensitivity.
When working with younger clients, the same thing applies. I was supervising a young man who had a 16-year-old boy client who said, “I will never speak to you about anything important in my life, period.” We knew from his referral info that he had been the person to discover his father had hanged himself, so he had some terrible, complex, traumatic grief.
My supervisee said, “What am I going to do?” And I said, “Take the checkers. Take backgammon. Take some games. Take some clay. Take some things into the room. And don’t force him to talk. Just be with him. Play.”
They played for three sessions, just played backgammon. And at the end of the third session, the client looked at the counselor and said, “Well, should we keep seeing each other? Because you said I only needed to come three times.”
And the counselor said, “Yeah, I think we should keep going.”
And the client said, “Well, okay then,” and he pushed the backgammon set aside and starting talking. To me it seemed like a great example of counter-conditioning. They used playing games as the stimulus that was pleasant and non-threatening.
VY: And participant modeling?
JSF: That’s really important, although obviously you can’t really have other people in the room modeling, so the therapist is the model, and is modeling comfort in all things. Comfort when the client says, “I’m feeling suicidal.” Comfort when the client says, “I want to punch you in the nose.” The response is to appreciate those disclosures, instead of being frightened by them. Being frightened by the client’s disclosures is going to feed the anxiety, instead of counter-condition it or instead of modeling, “We can handle this. We can handle this together. It’s best if we do talk about all these things, even the disturbing things that you bring into the room.”
VY: How do you help students, beginning therapists, achieve that? And, how do you balance that portrayal of comfort with authenticity when, in fact, beginning therapists may not feel at all comfortable?
JSF: That’s a great question, and it’s one of the challenges because you want the therapist to be genuine, and yet at the same time you want them to be comfortable. And often those two things are a little bit mutually exclusive.
But I think first of all, information helps. It’s helpful to our trainees and interns and young therapists to really understand and believe that, for example, suicidal ideation is not deviant. It’s not pathology. It’s an expression of distress, and if people don’t tell you about their suicidal ideation, then they are keeping it inside, and they’re not sharing their personal private experience of distress.

I try to do a lot of education around that, whether it’s suicidal or homicidal ideation or trauma or whatever it is that clients might talk about. It’s really important for young therapists to know if they don’t talk about it, we’ll never have a chance to help them with those legitimate, real thoughts and experiences that they’re having.

And the other big piece is practice, practice, practice.

VY: How do you practice these things?
JSF: To give an example, a lot our students initially do suicide assessment interviews, and they’ll say to their role-play client, “Have you thought about hurting yourself?” I’ll interrupt and say, “Okay, now use the word ‘suicide.’” Now say, “Have you thought about killing yourself?” I’m wanting them to get comfortable with the words and to practice using those words so that they aren’t so terribly frightening.
I remember supervising a new student who was conducting an initial assessment, and about half-way through the 30-minute interview, his client says, “I used to have a terrible addiction problem, and one of the things that really has helped me with my recovery is cycling. I’m an avid cycler and it’s really helped me with my drug and alcohol problems.”
At which point, he freezes in panic and says, “So what kind of bike do you have?”
I stopped the tape and said, “Hey, what was going on?” He says, “I was scared, I didn’t want to open things up.”
I said, “Well she did. She opened it up. She shared with you that she had an addiction problem, that she was in recovery, and that she had a method that really is helpful to her. So it would be perfectly natural for you to then use your good active listening skills and ask an open question or do a paraphrase or reflection of feeling, and to stay focused on the target, which was addiction recovery coping, instead of asking what kind of bike she had.”
So it’s a combination of offering encouragement, practice, and feedback.
VY: In addition to behavioral principles and humanist principles, what other theories or principles do you draw from?
JSF: Well, in the psychodynamic realm, I’m thinking of Edward Borden’s work on the working alliance and his effort to generalize it from the psychoanalytic frame to other frames. And the emotional bond between therapist and client, which Anna Freud wrote about initially. We really try to facilitate that.
We also engage in collaborative work toward goal consensus between therapist and client, and it could be that we agree that the therapeutic task involves free association and interpretation and working through. Or it could be a therapeutic task that involves exposure and a real behavior modification approach.

Clinical Interviewing

VY: You and your wife Rita Sommers-Flanagan have written a comprehensive and widely-used textbook entitled, Clinical Interviewing, about the initial stage of therapy, where you’ve examined and broken down in great detail all the aspects that those first few sessions. Can you explain what you mean by “clinical interviewing?”
JSF: It’s a term that originally referred to the initial psychiatric interview, which has a lot of assessment in it. So it refers to that initial contact. But as we have grown, we’ve come to see it as not just an initial contact. In some ways, every contact is a clinical interview in that every contact involves this sort of two-headed goal of assessment and helping. And then the third component is the working alliance, or the therapeutic relationship.
As we know, assessments in a clinical interview produce more valid data if we have a good working or therapeutic relationship. The evidence is very clear that therapy outcomes are more positive if we have a positive emotional bond, and we’re working collaboratively on goals and tasks. So I see the therapeutic relationship as central to the assessment and the helping dimension of the clinical interview.
VY: It’s the beginning phase of therapy.
JSF: Yes.
VY: In reading your text and also in viewing the video we’re releasing conjointly with this interview, you really emphasize the importance of the therapeutic relationship or rapport-building as an integral part of that initial contact.
JSF: Right. Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
VY: Because you’re not going to get much information or accurate information if they don’t feel like you’re on their side?
JSF: Absolutely. It’s about establishing trust and helping people to be open. I’m very familiar with your father’s work, and in The Gift of Therapy, he writes, “In recent and initial interviews, this inquiry into the typical day allowed me to learn of activities I might not otherwise have known for months.
Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
A few hours a day of computer solitaire, three hours a night in Internet sex chat rooms under a different identity, massive procrastination at work, ensuing shame. A daily schedule so demanding that I was exhausted listening to it.”
And he goes on and on about these disclosures that he was able to get by asking a simple question, “Tell me about your usual day.” To me, that’s a great example of how rich the assessment data can be with a simple question, if you have a positive rapport and therapeutic relationship.
VY: So it seems like a fundamental balancing act that you’re always dealing with is how do you balance getting sufficient information—particularly if you work for an agency where forms are a part of the process—while establishing sufficient rapport. Because if they don’t come back for a second session, the treatment is surely a failure.
JSF: Right, how do we balance the information-gathering task that we might have for our agency with the relationship task? And how do we do that with culturally diverse clients?
One of the things we try to do in the Clinical Interviewing book is to go into detail—with an outline and structure—of different kinds of initial clinical interviews, including the intake and the mental status exam, suicide assessment, diagnostic interviewing, and other kinds of interviews, yet emphasizing throughout the importance of the relationship.
So if I have a checklist that my clinic is requiring me to fill out, I would say to the client, “This part of our task today. I am supposed to ask these questions and record your answers, but I also want to hear from you in your own words things that you’re experiencing. So I’ll try to balance that with you.” And I’ll actually show them the questionnaire or the checklist.
VY: So be transparent.
JSF: Be transparent. Absolutely.

Multicultural Competence and Moving Beyond Your Comfort Zone

VY: You mentioned different cultures. What are some particular considerations that come to mind about that?
JSF: Well, some of the principals that come to mind for me involve respect for the native culture here in Montana and throughout the U.S. I think respect is a core part of beginning any relationship. And I think respect involves understanding and being able to pronounce the names of various tribes, asking very gently and respectfully about tribal affiliation here in Montana. I will sometimes say that I know some people from, say, the Crow tribe who have been students in our program. Even if they don’t know the particular students, it can be helpful to hear that I have had contact with somebody who’s got the same tribal affiliation as them.
Cultural competence also means that we take the time to read and study about working with Latino or Latina clients. It also involves using what Stanley Sue referred to as “dynamic sizing” and “scientific mindedness,” where we try to figure out, “Does this cultural generality apply to the specific cultural being in my office?” That’s a difficult but very important thing to determine.
VY: Just a couple weeks ago I had the privilege of interviewing Stanley Sue’s brother, Derald Wing Sue, on multi-cultural issues. One of the things he emphasized was really getting outside of your comfort zone and getting to know these other cultures on a more than superficial level.
JSF: Another thing he really emphasizes is the question that can’t help but be in the back of the mind of many minority clients: “Is this therapist the kind of person who will oppress me in ways that other people in the dominant culture have oppressed me and my family, my tribe, or my culture?”
One of the remedies that he and others have talked about is for therapists to be more transparent, and use a little more self-disclosure. Because without doing that, there’s just no good evidence that we’re not the oppressor or the “downpressor” as some Jamaicans would say.
So diving into the culture, getting to know it on more than a surface level, and then being able to use some of the principals that Stanley and Derald Wing Sue have articulated well is essential. It makes things much more complicated and much more rewarding.

Intake Essentials

VY: There are many models of how that initial client contact occurs—from a brief telephone intake to, in certain settings like substance abuse or mental health treatment centers, having a designated intake worker who passes on the client to interns or therapists. Do you have a general recommendation or sense of what the best practices are for the initial intake?
JSF: Well, in agencies where there is a handoff from an intake worker to other therapists, it can be difficult to maintain the therapeutic connection. In that case the initial session becomes much more about clinical assessment than initiating therapy.
Constance Fischer and Stephen Finn have written about these kinds of therapeutic assessments since at least the late 1970’s, and they suggest complete transparency through the process. “Here’s how things work in this agency.
This will be my only session with you. I would like to work longer with you, but what I’m going to be thinking about during our time together is who might be the best match for you for ongoing counseling or psychotherapy.”
Without that transparency we run the risk of alienating the client—leaving them feeling like, “Oh, man, I have to go through all this again with another person next week?”
VY: It’s hard enough for people to get into treatment in the first place. As I often say to clients, “People are not usually waiting in line to get the therapy.” It often takes people years.
JSF: Right, and when we put another hurdle there it makes it even more difficult. So it’s important to explain the hurdles and let them know how best to get over the next hurdle.
VY: Is your general sense that it’s better not to have a separate person doing the intake if possible?
JSF: I think it’s better to have the same person do the intake and then continue with therapy. There are, of course, exceptions to that. If you have someone who is not well-trained in substance abuse therapy, and then it becomes clear in the first intake session that this person has an active substance abuse problem, transferring the person to a therapist or counselor who has that experience would be a better fit.
And you can just explain that to the client, although oftentimes the client will still say, “Oh, but I’d rather work with you.” But as long as you have a good rationale, you can make that transition relatively easily. So, yes, it’s best to have the same person do the intake and then continue with the therapy, except in situations where there’s a clear rationale to do otherwise.

Treatment Planning

VY: What are your thoughts about treatment planning? There’s a lot of emphasis on that in many agencies. Do you think that’s something that actually can be done with any specificity? So often someone comes in thinking they’re here to work on X, and six weeks later, you’re really working more on Y. So at times I wonder who the treatment planning process is really serving. Is it really serving the client, or is it serving some agency needs, some funding needs, or the anxiety of the therapist?
JSF: I remember an old supervisor saying to a group of us, “We’re not technicians. We can’t really lay out a protocol for exactly how to act with every client. Every client’s unique, so we need to go deeper than that. We’re professionals, and we bring both art and science into the room.”
I think it’s important to blend the two.
I’m not a big fan of cookie cutter treatment plans. But I am a fan of looking at the plan, talking with the client about what our plan is, and being somewhat explicit and collaborative in that process. I see it as a kind of dialectic—it’s a little bit cookie cutter in that it doesn’t bring in much of the individuality of the client but it does have some important information for us. From there we can dive into the unique qualities of the client and their experiences.
As an example, let’s just say you have a client who’s impulsive. We know that there are certain kinds of treatments that we might use with someone who is diagnosed with ADHD who is impulsive, where those impulsive behaviors are getting him or her in trouble. It’s good to know about CBT and other kinds of therapies that might help with impulsivity. But it’s also really important to get into the mind and, in some sense, the body of that individual client to understand what’s going on with that person.
But knowing that there are probably triggers that increase and decrease impulsivity is something you’d want to work on with a CBT treatment plan. It can help focus the questioning, even if you’re working from an existential perspective.

“Evidence-Based” Treatment

VY: As you’re a professor at the University of Montana, and actively involved in training students, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about the major trend towards “evidence-based” treatment? There are a lot of leading figures in the field who are critiquing this trend. John Norcross talks about evidence-based relationships, since research actually shows that most of the positive outcomes in therapy are based on the relationships and not on this or that technique or procedure. Are you pressured by accrediting agencies to teach evidence-based treatments? What have your experiences been in this regard?
JSF: Yes, there is a lot of pressure to incorporate “evidence-based,” or “empirically-supported treatments.” When you look at Norcross’ work, you have to shake your head and wonder why we focus so much on technical procedures and evidence-based treatments. The science just really isn’t there. There are studies done that show X or Y treatment is effective and, therefore, it becomes evidence-based. And yet there’s a mountain of evidence saying otherwise, that it’s not the specific protocols that make a positive treatment outcome.
There are these voices in the wilderness, like Norcross, crying out about this, but there’s still this inexorable trend towards requiring these evidence-based treatments in training students and in various government agencies, for example.
The cynical side of me would say it’s about trying to get our share of the healthcare dollars. Shaping ourselves to be in the medical model, since there are empirically-supported medical treatments. Of course, there is some real scientific evidence that we should be aware of when working with our clients. We should be, because we’re professionals in this area. Like Norcross writes about, there are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures. There are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures.
But we shouldn’t ignore all technical procedures because, even Carl Rogers would say, “If the technique arises spontaneously out of a particular place where you are in the counseling process, then it may be appropriate.”
VY: In wrapping up, any advice you would give for students or early career therapists just starting out?
JSF: I think my biggest advice these days is to focus on balance: The balance between the science and the art, the balance between the relationship and assessment and diagnosis. We need some diagnostic information in many real world situations, but we should not try to get that at the risk of damaging the therapeutic relationship. The impulse is for people to go one direction or the other. I was at a workshop one time where a woman referred to people as science “fundamentalists,” which I thought was a very apt description of some people. They have this allegiance to the paradigm of modernist science, and that’s the only way truth is known.
Then there are people who are much more touchy-feely and go with the flow. My general advice would be, if you’re more of a touchy-feely person, you really still need to learn the science. You still need to read the clinical interviewing text and understand the content that is our professional foundation. And if you’re more inclined toward scientific fundamentalism, you need to get out of that box and try to learn from the other side of the dialectic, which is the relational, emotional side of things that happen in the therapy office.

Advice for the Late-Career Therapist

VY: So let’s use mid- or later-career therapists as an example. By that time in their careers, many have migrated to private practice and have gotten very comfortable in their own ways of being with clients. In many ways that’s a good thing—it’s part of the career progression to take everything you’ve learned along the way and integrate that into who you are as a person. But one drawback I see is the possibility of just jumping into therapy with any client who walks in your office—assuming they’re a good fit for you—without maybe doing a proper assessment. And then they find out six months down the road that the client has a drinking issue that they hadn’t disclosed before. Any advice for these later-career therapists?
JSF: Yes. I’m not in full-time private practice right now but I have friends who see 35 people a week, and are doing the kind of thing you’re talking about.
It’s so easy for us to get into a little niche where we do it our way, and we’re no longer open to other ways of thinking. I’d say it’s really important to keep stretching yourself, to keep reading, to keep going to professional workshops, because we can do things wrong for years and think that we’re actually being successful.
Scott Miller is emphasizing it now more than anyone else–but it’s incredibly important to get systematic feedback from our clients so that we can get a sense whether we’re on the right track with each individual client.
Even though we sometimes can convince ourselves that we’re incredibly intuitive and we can, therefore, launch into therapy immediately, there is some research that suggests that negative outcomes correlate with inadequate assessment. So we do need to step back and do a little formal assessment here and there, even though, as experienced practitioners, we might think, “I know what to do here. This is not a problem.”
Instead, step back and to say, “Let’s do a little bit of assessment here so we can work together to make sure that we’re on the right track.” In other words, mid-therapy adjustments and assessments to make sure that we are helping our clients as effectively as possible.
VY: A final question: What’s your growing edge right now as a teacher and practitioner?
JSF: I have several growing edges. One growing edge that’s pretty constant for me is working toward greater cultural sensitivity, and being able to know more deeply about people who come from diverse minority kinds of backgrounds.
Another growing edge for me is the whole idea of mindfulness and how to incorporate that into some of the more traditional ways that I was taught to do psychotherapy.
I think the other growing edge for me is kind of a growing foundation. The person-centered principals for me have always been foundational and I find myself sometimes really wanting to go back to those. I can see myself in future months or years going to some trainings to get even better at the things that I think are my basic foundational skills.
VY: I often have the opportunity to review some old videos that we’ve acquired or produced and just recently watched the first video produced with James Bugental, a human-centered existential therapist. I’ve probably seen that video 20 times and I still appreciate it, perhaps on an even deeper level.Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

JSF: Thank you very much, Victor. I very much appreciate your work and the fact that you have dedicated a lot of your life to making the work of other great therapists accessible to all of us.