Jessica Kitchens on the Clinical Needs of Autistic Adults

Lawrence Rubin: I’m here today with Jessica Kitchens, who describes herself as a conscious, inclusive, Indigenous and artistic leader dedicated to enhancing the lives of others through collaborative efforts. She also describes herself as Autistic, Indigenous, wife, mother of five, CEO, therapist, consultant, author, trainer, board certified cognitive specialist, addiction specialist and neuro diversity advocate. And of course, she is a clinician. Hi Jessica, thanks for joining me.
Jessica Kitchens: Glad to be here, Lawrence.

By Any Other Name-Late Identified Autism

LR: Let’s begin with terms. What is a late identified Autistic?
JK: Late identified Autistics are individuals that have been Autistic their whole lives but may not have been recognized as such because they have developed high masking capabilities. They decided that it was better for them to adapt certain behavioral patterns in order to fit in. It is something they have come to do automatically. They don’t know why; they just knew that they needed to. Later on in life, they recognized that this method of fitting into social norms, while self-protective, also came with a high cost. They begin to struggle as the demands of adulthood kick in, so to speak. Sometimes, they become aware of the burden of masking their own struggles when their child is diagnosed.
LR: late identified Autistics are individuals that have been Autistic their whole lives but may not have been recognized as such because they have developed high masking capabilitiesThe ability to recognize and then mask difficulties seems to be an advanced coping skill, but a very demanding, and perhaps tiring one. Do they reach a tipping or breaking point?
JK: Absolutely! There’s a lot of wear and tear that goes into high masking because of the psychological and emotional energy expenditure. Many of these individuals cope with masking by abusing substances or through process/behavioral addictions like gambling, shopping, and gaming, to name a few. That’s sometimes why they end up coming to see me, unless they are referred by family members or their employers or school personnel suggest it. But others simply burn out or shut down.
LR: I imagine they may also present with anxiety, depression, and/or substance abuse. But I can also see a therapist missing the Autism if they either don’t look for it or are not trained to look for or assess it.
JK: Absolutely. There are a lot of misdiagnosed individuals out there walking around with a higher proportion of them being female, but there are high masking males out there as well. These individuals may be diagnosed with bipolar disorder because the dysregulation can come out sometimes as mania, or they present symptoms of borderline personality disorder. I was personally misdiagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder.
LR: these individuals may be diagnosed with bipolar disorder because the dysregulation can come out sometimes as mania, or they present symptoms of borderline personality disorder
What are some of the reasons that a clinician, especially one that is non-Autistic, might miss the Autism diagnosis?
JK: Unfortunately, this is a common problem. We have a lot of professionals out there that are really good at what they do, but they have not had adequate or up-to-date training on what Autism now looks like, because they’re still looking at very old stereotypes. It wasn’t even in the DSM until 1980, and even then, they still had a very distorted view of what it was.It’s only now that Autistic researchers are coming out and talking about their own lived experience and we’re finally changing what the diagnosis looks like because there’s a lot of what I would call iceberg Autistics out there. They’ve masked for so long and kept a lot of this stuff underneath. Therefore, a lot of clinicians are over-relying on stereotypes and media representations of lower functioning, higher support needed individuals like Rain Man. They miss the diagnosis of Autism when they see someone like me, thinking something like, “you don’t you don’t look like my cousin who has Autism. So unfortunately, there are a lot of clinicians out there that are doing some harm because they do not have up-to-date training.
LR: there are a lot of clinicians out there that are doing some harm because they do not have up-to-date trainingSo up to date training would tell clinicians that Autism is far more, or far different than being able to count 496 matches on the floor, stimming, self-harming, or having real difficulties making eye contact, to name some of the more familiar symptom clusters. What are the new generation of trained clinicians looking for?
JK: A lot of times, these clients come in because of dysregulation, even though they may not use the term. They may find themselves easily dysregulated in their work environment or in their home environment. They may actually have a visceral, nervous system response to sounds and lights. And since Autism is a dynamic disability, they may struggle in their relationships because of difficulties with pragmatic communication. On a given day, these folks, me included, may have difficulty finding the simplest of words to use. When a clinician is trained to look for these subtleties, they are in a better position to ask the right questions.
LR: Are there benefits of first being diagnosed in adulthood?
JK: That’s a good question and one that a lot of them must decide for themselves. A formal diagnosis in certain settings, like school or work, can help them get accommodations, such as adaptations to the sensory environments, that can put them on par to where they can now be equal and function at a baseline level with some of their neurotypical peers. Sometimes they can get them without a formal diagnosis, but some work environments are exceedingly difficult in allowing that. And sadly, we still have a lot of ableism in work environments.For others not necessarily pursuing accommodations, formal diagnosis can empower them to re-consider their dysregulation, learn coping mechanisms such as mindfulness, and review their life in a way that now makes sense to them.
LR: sadly, we still have a lot of ableism in work environmentsWouldn’t we the want the newly diagnosed adult to be referred to a clinician who knows how to help this particular client?
JK: Absolutely, but unfortunately, there are clinicians out there that can do more harm than good if they don’t have the right knowledge to work with these clients. I’m very picky about who I work with because there’s a lot of nuances that go with the neurodiversity affirming framework, such as learning about the nervous system functioning of an Autistic adult.
LR: Have you seen any downsides to a person being diagnosed in adulthood with Autism?
JK: Within work environments, there are instances of ableism among managers or supervisors who work against accommodations. The problem can be institutional.
LR: So just as there are institutional racism and institutional homophobia, there is also institutional ableism?
JK: It’s heavy and it’s ingrained in all aspects of our culture. One of the things that I’m working on in my PhD research is decolonizing ableism by utilizing and looking at indigenous perspectives of Autism through my own and other tribes. I’m trying to view it through an indigenous and a decolonizing framework, because the Western medicine is entrenched with a lot of deficit-oriented stereotypes. It’s everywhere. It’s in our schools, it’s in our work, it’s in medical institutions. We do have capabilities. We want people to recognize that we are autonomous persons, and just because we struggle with certain skills, there are many things that we are still capable of, and many Autistic adults are quite gifted in many ways.
LR: How has being a late diagnosed Autistic influenced your professional trajectory and shaped who you are in the therapy room with clients?
JK: It’s changed everything. I was formally diagnosed a few years ago, but it was my youngest daughter of my five that was diagnosed before any of us, and now my youngest three are all formally diagnosed with ADHD and Autism. It’s one of those things that’s literally changed every facet of my life. Every conversation that I have with people is entrenched in this.The ways I review my childhood and how I view my future are now entrenched with this view which has also affected my research and PhD journey. I don’t ever see it going back. I’ve had to grieve a lot of my life, but there is no me without Autism because this is who I am. It explains so much. It explains all the things that I’ve probably struggled with my whole life.

Neurodiversity Affirming Intervention

LR: In the case of an Autistic adult, what is neurodiversity affirming intervention?
JK: A person-centered orientation seems to be the best for most of these clients. But knowledge and the understanding of certain Autism experiences like pathological demand avoidance or rejection sensitive dysphoria, goes a long way. So does using correct terms such as identity first language—using the word ‘Autistic,’ rather than ‘a person with Autism.’
LR:a person-centered orientation seems to be the best for most of these clientsWhat do you mean by saying that a person-centered approach is best?
JK: Meeting them where they’re at – a lot of times clinicians have this view that they need to fix people. That’s not what it is. You know? It’s more about matching that congruence and recognizing that you we are capable of so much beyond the narrow limits of what the diagnosis suggests. It’s about recognizing what skills can actually help us be the best that we can be as a person, whatever that looks like. Whether it’s mindfulness, EMDR, or CBT. It’s about grabbing from modalities of all types. Everybody’s different.It’s not about coming from a place of judgment. I don’t want to push my views on my client of what I think they need to be working on. I want them to have an idea of areas they want to grow in and using whatever tools and skills I have to help them get there.
LR: there is this misconception that people are being overly diagnosed, that we’re handing it out like candyAre there myths and misconceptions that clinicians bring into this work that hinders intervention?
JK: There is this misconception that people are being overly diagnosed, that we’re handing it out like candy. Clinicians who believe this go in with automatic blinders. In reality, Autism goes back generations in families, so a new diagnosis should not be that surprising or unlikely. And because these adults are bringing their children in for diagnosis, it makes sense to either formally or informally assess and perhaps even help that parent. And while it’s not a myth or misconception per se, internalized ableism on the part of the client or clinician, or both, can hinder the intervention process.
LR: Have you encountered resistance from some clients who are on the doorstep of the diagnosis?
JK: The only resistance that I’ve noted has not come from the clients themselves. It has been from their families because a lot of them take it as an affront to who they are or believe in some way that they caused it. And so again, that goes back to some internalized ableism. Sometimes, these clients come to me already knowing about the possibility. A lot of them actually did. Sometimes, it comes to them after I’ve planted seeds.
LR: the undiagnosed or unaware Autistic clinician is going to miss it in their clients if they’ve missed it in themselvesIs an undiagnosed Autistic therapist a potential risk to either neurotypical or neurodiverse clients? Or is the therapy potentially limited by a clinician who is unaware of – or resistant to – acknowledging their Autism?
JK: The undiagnosed or unaware Autistic clinician is going to miss it in their clients if they’ve missed it in themselves. I’ve been there too. I have to look back and reckon with the fact that there are some clients with whom I’ve missed important aspects of their experience because I wasn’t thinking about the possibility of Autism.

Transitions and Unique Challenges for the Autistic Adult

LR: We know that stress increases as life demands accelerate, so are older teens and young who have not yet been diagnosed at a greater risk?
JK:  It’s interesting that you ask that question because I was a co-researcher on a Delphi study on what independent living looks like to Autistic adults. And as far as moving out on their own or going to college or working, many of these young people start struggling all of a sudden, or at least far more than they had previously.They did well at home and well in school because there was a lot of structure and stability. But now all of the sudden they’re required to function on a higher level. Logistics are a different monster altogether such as paying bills and adapting to new, and complex sensory and demand environments.
LR: Is the diagnostic threshold different for teens than it is for adults?
JK: I would expect the clinician to be able to identify high masking, and to use multiple sources in the assessment of younger clients who may not be able to report fully. I think it’s often harder to diagnose a child because they can’t speak for themselves. If the clinician uses appropriate measures and asks the right questions, it can actually be easier because they can ask about the internal processes, not just your behaviors and what you do and what others see, but what the internal processes are.
LR: Can you think of a few assessment instruments off the top of your head?
JK: The Social Responsiveness Scale is one that was done on me. I felt like, man, that asked a lot of the right questions, and there was also a Sensory Profile that really nailed it, at least for me.
LR: many people on the spectrum actually have higher than average affective empathyWhat are some of the relationship and family issues that Autistic adult clients bring to you?
JK: There is an interesting challenge for Autistic adults called the double empathy problem. One of the stereotypes is that these people lack empathy, which is the furthest thing from the truth. Many people on the spectrum actually have higher than average affective empathy. The disconnect comes from alexithymia, meaning they may not be able to label that feeling, but they can feel it. A lot of them do struggle with Theory of Mind (ToM), also known as cognitive empathy. That’s the problem with necessarily putting yourself in the shoes of the individual and understanding their perspective.So, you might have two individuals with high affective empathy, but differences in their cognitive empathy. The double empathy problem manifests in, one or the other member of the couple or family member, not feeling understood. They might butt heads, which then leads to a lack of reciprocity. That’s one of those nuances that a non-neurodiversity affirming therapist might miss.
LR: What might be some of the challenges to Autistic parents?
JK: Parents also struggle with the double empathy problem. Some of the biggest communication struggles I had with my teen children were whenever we were coming from different places of reciprocity or understanding each other’s perspectives.
LR: What is internalized ableism?
JK: As a parent, it could be expecting an Autistic child to do something a non-Autistic child can do or expecting a partner to somehow be or act normally, without respecting their diversity and difficulties. That child or adult then internalizes that prejudice and may struggle unnecessarily, beating themselves up, instead of accepting certain limitations and learning effective coping skills.
LR: You identify as indigenous, and work with indigenous clients? Does Autism manifest differently among indigenous people?
JK: Absolutely. Here in Arkansas, I don’t have as many clients as I would if I was back in Oklahoma 20 years ago, which is where my tribe is, the Potawatomi. And we know the Māori in New Zealand have a word for Autism called Takiwãtanga, which means in your own time and place. They have a more positive frame of mind for Autistics.
LR: many Autistics have high affective empathy, and deep sense of justiceWe tend to pathologize differences, but I am now wondering about some of the unique skills and advantages associated with Autism, perhaps that a clinician could capitalize on.
JK: I feel like it’s different for everybody, but many Autistics have high affective empathy, and deep sense of justice. A lot of us are really hard-core advocates in general because of our empathy. It tears us up whenever somebody is being mistreated. Other than that, the noting of patterns. For me, it’s behavioral patterns. I was able to learn behavioral patterns early on to mask my differences, but it can also help me to note incongruences with my clients. We can also be quite analytic. Clearly, we have many broad capabilities, so stereotypes often simply fall short.
LR: Finally, what are some resources and organizations that clinicians can use to improve their identification and intervention skills?
JK: If you’re going to work with Autistics, you need to know about pathological demand avoidance, also known as persistent drive for autonomy, which is PPDA. PPDA North America is a useful resource for this, but there’s also NeuroClastic, which I believe is a 501 C3. They work the business side; working with businesses and hiring Autistic individuals and they do a lot of good. There’s also the Autistic Self-Advocacy Network.
LR: Is there anything I failed to mention, Jessica, or questions I could have asked?
JK: There are so many nuances to appreciate about this population, and it is so much more than reading the DSM when you work with these clients. You’re going to learn the most from individuals with lived experience and those who have entrenched themselves into Autistic research.
LR: On that note, Jessica, thank you so very much for your expertise and sharing your valuable time.
JK: No problem. I really appreciate it.

Sidestepping the Dependency Dance in Psychotherapy

“Not I, nor anyone else can travel that road for you. You must travel it by yourself. It is not far. It is within reach.” – Walt Whitman

We’ve all had someone text us a single question mark after not responding to them within the timeframe they expect. You know the one. It looks like this:

“Can I come over — 12:00pm?”

“?”

I mean, did your question mark wander off and get lost somehow? Should we head to the front of the store to reunite it with its missing sentence? While I think the use of this orphaned punctuation should be considered a misdemeanor offense, it points to a natural phenomenon about human interaction, especially the disembodied kind most common in the digital universe — when we communicate with each other, there are rhythmic expectations. When we want the rhythm of a conversation to be slower, but someone else wants it to be faster, the single question mark makes its grand appearance.

“I’m waiting,” it complains.

When starting a new relationship, deciphering these rhythms can be a challenge because the response time between parties can suggest very different things. If one party responds to a text message quickly, it might mean they’re interested in the relationship, or it might indicate that their device was simply nearby. Yet if someone responds to a text message slowly, it might indicate they’re disinterested in the relationship, or it might simply mean they’re preoccupied. The signals are unclear and they require interpretation.

If we’re honest, it’s probably impossible to know what someone’s response time actually indicates, but this doesn’t stop us from reading between the lines. But the problem with reading between the lines is that we simply end up interpreting or projecting. When we feel alone, we might imagine that our text was read but ignored, and when we’re preoccupied, we might feel smothered by a quick response back to us. While much of our communication has moved into the digital space, it remains timelessly true: new relationships have a way of tempting our projections.

It’s only after the relationship leaves its early stages that the conversational rhythms fall into place, and the uncertainties become clear. Familiarity with someone’s rhythms comes with time. Similar dynamics also exist within therapy. When the therapist and client are in the process of creating a new relationship — learning, in a sense, to dance together — the rhythms of communication are uncertain before becoming apparent. And while rhythms in a non-therapeutic relationship require time before becoming understood, therapists don’t always have the luxury of time. Fortunately, the therapist can learn strategies to remove these rhythmic uncertainties, and the process of understanding our clients can be accelerated. I certainly have.

The Rhythmic Uncertainties of Therapy

One effective way I have found to remove the rhythmic uncertainties in therapy is to be forthcoming about my own rhythms. Most of my clients have not met with me beforehand, so they don’t know the therapy rules — at least not mine. They don’t know if I take phone calls after 5pm, if I correspond on weekends, or if emails should contain intimate session details. Whatever my own therapeutic rhythms might be, it is my responsibility to make them explicit.

Another area where I have made my rhythms explicit is in my response time to phone calls and emails. Most therapists I’ve encountered choose a 24-hour window, while others choose 48. While I don’t think the timeframe itself matters too much, it’s important to pick a response time and stick to it. This is because when we stick to a consistent rhythm of communication, it elicits important questions about our clients.

“Jessica called me twice in the past 24 hours, is something wrong?”

“James calls me every day. What’s going on here?”

When I create a consistent schedule of responding to my clients, I create a baseline, and by holding my own behavior constant, it helps me to notice any deviations in a client’s behavior. If someone attempts to reach me multiple times within a single communication cycle, sometimes this deviation signals that I need to intervene. A client might attempt to make contact several times because their personal safety can’t wait until the end of a 24- or 48-hour window. Multiple missed calls can be flares shot into the sky.

In other instances, consistent attempts to contact me within a single communication cycle can indicate something much different. This behavioral rhythm often elicits an important question that each new therapist has to learn — and certainly, I was no exception. That question is, “what should be done when a client makes persistent contact and has no intention of slowing down?”

The Dependency Dance

One of the challenges of being a beginning therapist is working with highly dependent clients. While these clients are different in innumerable ways, they also share striking similarities. The stories that bring them to therapy contain universal themes.

One such theme I’ve noticed is that these clients experience a strong sense of helplessness, and as a result, they depend on others for excessive amounts of support. They don’t mean to, but they rely on their relationships to balance and guide them; they turn human beings into handrails.

The difficulty associated with this excessive need for support is often manifested through a dependency dance: a symbiotic cycle marked by ever-increasing client support, and ever-decreasing client security.

Here’s how the cycle has functioned in my own clinical work. Feelings of panic surge within the client, and in response, they contact their loved ones to help them de-escalate. Yet after the panic eventually finds its resolution, the inner turmoil soon returns, as does their need for support. From within the client’s subjective experience of the cycle, each time they’re de-escalated, they feel more convinced that they can’t de-escalate themselves. Receiving help from others unintentionally reinforces their feelings of helplessness. This increases the client’s experience of fear, and then this fear ushers the panic back in with greater frequency. It’s a panic trap.

As the frequency of their panic accelerates, so do their requests for help, and this creates fatigue in their support system. Eventually, and usually with great reluctance, their loved ones exit the dependency dance by either distancing themselves or ending the relationship entirely. Once these supportive relationships end, the client’s feelings of shame become overwhelming. With no remaining handrails in reach, they reach out for a therapist.

In my early days of practicing therapy, it took a process of trial and error before learning how to step into this complicated cycle effectively. My learning curve was steep and uncomfortable. My hope is that by sharing my early mistakes, that I can offer some modicum of guidance to fellow clinicians, both nascent and experienced.

Early Mistakes in Psychotherapy

When I first started working with highly dependent clients, there were three mistakes that I tried to avoid. The first was allowing the cycle of crisis-and-relief to continue inside of the therapy. If I allowed the client to implement their dependent style into our relationship, then the heart of their problem would remain unaddressed. I’d be providing de-escalation services, but this would reinforce their feelings of helplessness, and then their surges of panic would return more frequently. I didn’t want to contribute to the dependency dance.

The second mistake I hoped to avoid was connected to the first. I worried that if the cycle continued, I would undergo the same exhaustion that their support system did. These clients had a long line of exhausted people behind them, and I didn’t want to find myself at the end of that line. If I joined the dependency dance, I worried their exhausted support system would only be replaced by their exhausted therapist.

But the mistake that concerned me the most, the third one, was creating distance in our relationship too quickly. These clients often had important relationships recently ended, and they were bracing for rejection. They had been deeply hurt, and I worried that if I created distance in our relationship too quickly, their feelings of shame would be quickly reactivated. I didn’t want the shame they experienced in their previous relationships to be reexperienced with me.

I spent time thinking about how to simultaneously avoid these three mistakes. How could I elude the dependency dance, protect myself from exhaustion, and avoid reactivating their feelings of shame at the same time? This was hard. I felt anxious and stuck.

Each answer I came up with seemed unsatisfactory, and despite my best efforts, I made all three mistakes multiple times. I took phone calls after hours and scheduled extra sessions, and just as I worried, my client’s surges of panic became more frequent. No matter how I pretzeled myself, their need for my help only increased.

In other cases, I was too reactive. I was exhausted from being overly available with dependent clients in previous treatment episodes, and so I expressed my limits too firmly. These clients ejected from my office as if launched from a catapult before disappearing into the clouds. Their feelings of shame had reactivated, and they quickly terminated the therapy. I couldn’t blame them.

Eventually my mistakes brought me to a solution. I discovered that I didn’t need to choose between my clients becoming dependent on me, or more independent from me. Instead, I could do one before the other. I could first join the dependency dance, and then show them how to end it.

A Therapeutic Strategy Applied

I’ve come to believe that to help clients become less dependent on those in their lives, they must first be allowed to temporarily become dependent on their therapist. With this logic, and joining the client on their terms, I could work to change the relationship from the inside. Instead of telling a client to become less dependent on me, I could show them how to do it, and then they could then learn how to replicate this process within their personal relationships.

But what does temporarily joining the dependency dance mean in practice? Highly dependent clients will request extra sessions and phone calls, and so how available to make myself was the challenge.

There’s no hard and fast rule on this, but I think it’s useful to make ourselves available two additional times outside of our scheduled sessions. There’s a reason to settle on two times instead of one or three. If I make myself available outside of scheduled sessions for one time only, once I start to create distance from the client, it becomes harder to protect them from feelings of shame. These feelings of shame simmer just beneath the surface, and if I create distance too readily, this feeling can be brought to a boil. When this happens, the client’s disengagement from therapy becomes more likely.

Yet being available three times or more creates a dynamic that’s too similar to their previous relationships. If I fall into their old pattern for too long, the client isn’t working on ending the dependency dance, they’ve simply found themselves a new person on whom to become dependent. Yet by making myself available twice outside of scheduled sessions, I have the best chance of avoiding both negative outcomes: the client can avoid shame and early termination, and I can avoid becoming trapped inside the dependency dance.

Making myself available twice outside of scheduled sessions also allows me to structure two different conversations. In the first conversation, I can introduce strategies to help the client work through their feelings of panic, but I refrain from discussing their dependency. There’s not enough trust yet, and the risk of the client reexperiencing their shame is too high.

Instead, I can introduce grounding skills, breathing exercises, and other emotional regulation techniques. It’s important to introduce these strategies in the first conversation, because when their dependency is eventually addressed, I want to remind the client that they already have the mood regulation techniques that they require. More on this a little later.

But the first conversation is just as much about earning trust as it is about introducing emotional regulation skills. What I’ve learned is that when trust is low in therapy, my words must be delivered with more precision. Low trust lowers the margin for error. When clients are skeptical of my intentions or competency, my interventions need to be effective. The dart must hit the bullseye.

The good news is that the reverse is also true. When trust is high in therapy, the margin for error widens. The presence of client trust permits the absence of clinical perfection. My words don’t have to hit the bullseye, or the dartboard for that matter. It’s for this reason that I consider trust-building to be the therapeutic master-skill. It allows me to maintain my effectiveness while remaining imperfect in my practice. When I earn a client’s trust, inevitable errors are less damaging, and the prospect of client improvement despite my imperfections remains intact.

When I introduce emotional regulation skills in the first conversation, I’m also practicing this master-skill; developing trust by making myself available to the client. This is important because for the second conversation, the degree of difficulty increases. My clinical imperfections are more likely to assert themselves, and so I’m going to need a wider margin of error for what’s to come. This next dart is a little harder to throw.

The Second Conversation

Once I’ve built some degree of trust and provided strategies to help the client manage their feelings of panic, I need to exit the dependency dance the next time we meet. If I don’t, I run the risk of exhausting myself and reinforcing their feelings of helplessness. So how do I exit this dance without activating the client’s shame? I can do so by implementing these four steps:

Taking the Blame

Externalizing the Helpless Feeling

Triangulating Against the Helpless Feeling

Affirming that New Rules are for Next Time

Let’s explore an example of how this conversation might sound in a telehealth setting, and then we can unpack the steps therein:

Client: “- -”

Therapist: “You’re on mute.”

Client: “Oh, sorry. Can you hear me now?”

Therapist: “Yes, but now your picture is frozen — wait, now you’re unstuck.”

Client: “ – -”

Therapist: “You’re on mute again somehow.”

Client: “Sorry, how about now?”

Therapist: “You’re good.”

Client: “Wow, okay. Thanks for making the time. I’m feeling really bad, and I just need to talk about things with you again.”

Therapist: “Thanks for reaching out. I’m sorry things continue to be difficult. It sounds like these strong feelings keep rushing over you.”

Client: “Yeah, what should I do about it?”

Therapist: “That sounds really awful. So, I hate to sidetrack us before getting started, but would you mind if I shared something that I’ve been worrying about?”

Client: “Yeah, of course.”

Therapist: “I don’t doubt that these feelings are really difficult to experience, they actually sound physically painful. But I’ve been thinking since the last time we talked, and I’m worried about eventually making things harder for you.”

Step 1: Taking the Blame. When I start the second conversation, I can lean on the phrase “I’m worried about eventually making things harder for you.” There’s a reason this phrase can be helpful. As I’ve discussed, these clients have felt rejected in previous relationships, and their feelings of shame are just beneath the surface. Yet if I express concerns about the dependency dance, not in terms of our own personal difficulty, but in terms of the potential difficulty for them, I can reduce the chances of reactivating these feelings. I can help keep the shame beneath its boiling point.

Now is it possible that I’ll feel inconvenienced by making myself available for this second conversation? Yes. But is it helpful to share these feelings with the client? In this case, I don’t think so.

Perhaps the person-centered therapist will object, “But this isn’t authentic. You’re not demonstrating congruence!” That’s a valid critique. Sometimes there’s a tension between my intention to be helpful and my ability to be congruent. My private reactions aren’t always useful to my clients, and when faced with the choice of demonstrating perfect transparency or perfect sincerity, I want to prioritize sincerity.

While these two concepts might seem identical at first glance, I am careful not to confuse them. The word transparency comes from the early 15th century, and from the Latin nominative transparens. It translates to something like, “to show light through.” Transparency is a pane of glass from which nothing is hidden on either side. But the notion of sincerity means something entirely different. Sincerity comes from the 16th century, and from the Latin word sincerus which translates to something like “whole, pure, and clean.”

While I may not be able to maintain perfect transparency in each moment, I can always work to cultivate intentions towards my clients that are “whole, pure, and clean.” In this case, the disclosure of my own fatigue risks eliciting a shame response from the client, and if I’m to be helpful, avoiding this reaction is paramount. While it’s ideal to practice both transparency and sincerity whenever possible, in moments like these it’s better to prioritize the sincerity of my intentions over the transparency of my reactions.

After expressing that I’m worried about eventually contributing to the client’s distress, I can implement:

Step 2: Externalizing the Helpless Feeling. When implementing this step successfully, it sounds something like this:

Client: “Making things harder for me? I don’t feel that way. What do you mean?”

Therapist: “This simply crossed my mind, and so tell me if this doesn’t fit, but I found myself wondering if there’s this voice that tells you that you can’t manage these moments of distress on your own. My concern is if I talk through these feelings with you each time they come up, I’m agreeing with this invalidating voice. It’s as if the voice is saying, ‘You can’t do this by yourself,’ and I’m saying, ‘You’re right, let me jump in to help.’ Then each time you work through these feelings with me, it reinforces the sense that you can’t do it alone. But tell me what I’m missing.”

This intervention is more directive in nature and so it’s placed between therapeutic airbags, but to help clients approach their feelings of helplessness with more emotional safety, I can also use language that helps them externalize their feelings of helplessness. If I use the phrase, “there’s this voice that tells you…” this invites the client to think about their feelings from a safer distance. Here’s an example to demonstrate how this works.

Imagine hearing the following two phrases and listen for any differences in how you experience each statement. If it’s difficult to notice the differences while reading privately, it might be helpful to have someone read them aloud. Here’s the first phrase:

“You feel like you can’t do this by yourself.”

and the second one:

“There’s this voice that tells you that you can’t do this by yourself.”

Did you notice anything? The first phrase moves us into an emotional space and the second moves us into an evaluative one. This occurs because describing a feeling as “a voice” pulls the feeling out from the internal world, and places it into the world that’s external. An emotion is something we feel internally, but a voice is something we hear externally.

When I invite the client to think of their feeling of helplessness like it’s coming from the outside, this helps them step back from their uncomfortable emotional state. It creates space and emotional safety. This can make it easier for them to think about what they’re experiencing.

After I’ve taken the blame and externalized the feeling of helplessness, I can move into:

Step 3: Triangulating Against the Helpless Feeling. Let’s reenter the transcript to hear how this might sound:

Client: “I guess that makes sense. But what do I do about it?”

Therapist: “Well I think we could team up against this voice that says you’re incapable. I think we could create a practice arena for you to prove it wrong. If we can build some victories where you move through these times independently, then you can grow in your confidence to manage these difficult feelings. But please, push my thinking around here.”

When I externalize the helpless feeling in Step 2, I’m not only creating distance for the client to think about their feelings with more safety, but I’m also laying the groundwork for Step 3. These two steps work well together because by using the “the voice” intervention, I’ve increased the number of participants in therapy by one. Therapy goes from two parties (the therapist and the client), to three parties (the therapist, the client, and “the voice”). And once I’ve created this third party, I’ve created the opportunity for triangulation.

Now, triangulation typically carries a negative connotation and for good reason. It’s used to describe the process whereby two people inappropriately collude to exclude a third party. Triangulation is the reason groups of three are often unsuccessful in adolescent friendships; two friends grow closer to one another by excluding the third.

Yet in this case, the third party (the voice of helplessness) needs to be sidelined, and I can grow closer with my client by excluding it. I can initiate this benevolent triangulation by using the phrase, “we could team up.” This phrase prevents me from challenging the client’s feelings of helplessness directly, and instead I’m able collaborate with them against “the voice.”

That was Step 4: Affirming that New Rules are for Next Time, and this brings my four-part strategy to its conclusion. Here is the therapeutic dialog:

Client: “I hear what you’re saying, but I still don’t know what to do.”

Therapist: “Maybe we can start by reviewing what worked last time. This way I can help you find some relief today, but we can also figure out what to practice next time. Then when you steady yourself without me, you can push back against the invalidating voice that tells you that you can’t manage these feelings independently. What do you make of that?”

The rationale behind Step 4 is when I challenge the dependency dance, I don’t want to increase distance from the client in the same conversation. Instead, I can review the emotional regulation skills from the first conversation, but the client won’t attempt to manage their panic independently until its next occasion. This helps me demonstrate to them that changes to the relationship are not an expression of rejection. I’m not expressing my own need for distance, but instead, I’m creating opportunities for them to disprove the voice of helplessness. I’m not taking space from the client, but together, I’m creating space for them.

Now that I’ve discussed each step on its own and explored the internal rationale, I’ll provide a fuller sense of how this four-part strategy sounds with all four parts together. Here’s the transcript in its entirety:

Therapist: “I don’t doubt that these feelings are really difficult to experience, they actually sound physically painful. But I’ve been thinking since the last time we talked, and I’m worried about eventually making things harder for you (step 1).”

Client: “Making things harder for me? I don’t feel that way. What do you mean?”

Therapist: “This simply crossed my mind, and so tell me if this doesn’t fit, but I found myself wondering if there’s this voice that tells you that you can’t manage these moments of distress on your own. My concern is if I talk through these feelings with you each time they come up, I’m agreeing with this invalidating voice. It’s as if the voice is saying, ‘You can’t do this by yourself,’ and I’m saying, ‘You’re right, let me jump in to help.’ Then each time you work through these feelings with me, it reinforces the sense that you can’t do it alone. But tell me what I’m missing (step 2).”

Client: “I guess that makes sense. But what do I do about it?”

Therapist: “Well I think we could team up against this voice that says you’re incapable. I think we could create a practice arena for you to prove it wrong. If we can build some victories where you move through these times independently, then you can grow in your confidence to manage these difficult feelings. But please, push my thinking around here (step 3).”

Client: “I hear what you’re saying, but I still don’t know what to do.”

Therapist: “Maybe we can start by reviewing what worked last time. This way I can help you find some relief today, but we can also figure out what to practice next time. Then when you steady yourself without me, you can push back against the invalidating voice that tells you that you can’t manage these feelings independently. What do you make of that (step 4)?”

***

I’ve learned that while it’s understandable for the therapist to feel overwhelmed when working with highly dependent clients, it’s important to remember that these clients are living incredibly uncomfortable lives. It becomes even more important, therapeutically, to try to imagine their surges of anxiety, their loss of important relationships, and the sense that life is a spinning room. By working to understand what these clients experience in their emotional and social worlds, it becomes easier to provide support they’ve yet to experience. The real work then focuses on earning their trust, teaching them strategies to reduce their distress, and watching with admiration as they learn to exit the dependency dance themselves.

[Editor’s note: In the next installment of this five-part series, the author will address the challenges of working in the shadows of client suicidality]    

Breaking the Rules: When Parroting is the Best Approach in Therapy

A Non-Directive Approach

Carmen is your new ten o’clock client. You are excited to be of assistance but you will soon discover that this enthusiasm is short-lived. You have decided to begin with a Rogerian person-centered approach since this is your typical modus operandi and is generally very effective in most instances.

The first rule that runs through your mind is that like virtually every other non-directive therapist, you were trained to employ paraphrasing and not parroting when responding to the client. Parroting refers to repeating back the exact words that the client has said, without any interpretation of evaluation.

After Carmen utters a few sentences, you respond. Secretly you feel greatly convinced you were hitting all the desirable keys on the Carkhuff Empathy Scale. But Carmen’s response was not even close to what you expected.

Her reply, “No that’s not what I’m saying, not at all. I believe you are missing the entire point of what I am attempting to convey.”

Okay, let’s try it again. Carmen tells you more and once again you paraphrase using fresh words only to hear, “Seriously! Are you listening to anything I am saying or am I just paying you to talk to the wall?” (Your thought, not verbalized, of course, is: Um, no, your insurance company is just paying me to talk to the wall.)

Focusing on the positive, I was convinced I would not need to spend a lot of time making Carmen more assertive.

This is déjà vu therapeutics. It immediately occurs to most helpers that on rare occasions, we have all experienced this dynamic with other clients. The dilemma is always the same: Is it truly the fact that your responses are pathetic or is Carmen (and similar clients) just the difficult, resistant clients from Hell?

Unfortunately, without running a complete battery of tests, consulting a string of experts, perusing a host of journal articles, and watching a video of the session again, it is next to impossible to know for sure. And yes, your own negative self-talk haunts you as you recall the sage advice of your uncle George who often quipped during your grueling time in graduate school, “Forget about this counseling and therapy graduate school stuff. Become a plumber like me.”

In essence, you really have no way to be 100% certain whether your therapy skills are a bit rusty, your uncle George was on to something, or if Carmen is just the resistant client your professors warned you about.

And surely you would never turn to parroting since your graduate faculty depicted the horrors of this evil technique. Moreover, every book, article, and mentor in the field insisted parroting was negative as well. In fact, it had to be true, since I have mentioned the dangers of parroting in my own books.

Even the ultimate expert Chat GPT AI says, “Parroting can be seen as invalidating and unhelpful for clients. Chat continues, “Parroting is condescending and dismissive to the client and does not allow the helper to add interpretation or elaboration.”

Does Therapeutic Parroting Work?

Having said that, ironically, I am going to suggest that the solution to your predicament with clients like Carmen lies in using a fool-proof intervention that can help you diagnose the situation virtually every time: parroting. Yes, parroting, the concept your professors warned you to avoid like the plague.

Your answer will become crystal clear when the client responds to your intentional parroting. Hence, if Carmen says, “I hate my mother,” and you violate the advice of your graduate faculty, and virtually all texts on the subject and say, “You hate your mother,” and Carmen replies, “No you really aren’t getting this, are you?” We can begin to suspect that her combative or perhaps clueless behavior is fueling the discord.

Assume Carmen’s next response was, “I had a terrible childhood,” and you come back without a shred of creativity with, “So you had a terrible childhood” only to see Carmen roll her eyes and say, “Where did that come from? I mean, really. No, I never said that. Are you really trained to perform therapy?”

Now you know Carmen has some issues and most likely your psychotherapeutic skills, although they may not be ideal, do not need a complete overhaul.

At this point, you can choose to confront Carmen either now or later or implement whatever strategy you deem appropriate, but at least you will have convinced yourself the issue is within the client and not you.

You may be asking if I have just invalidated a long-standing tradition in treatment. Well, not really. My guess is that in perhaps 99% of your interactions with clients, your graduate faculty got it oh-so-right when they recommended you refrain from parroting. Parroting is used for the 1% when a client has put your paraphrasing, summarizing, and reflective listening skills in a double bind.

I must disclose that I have a slight advantage over most therapists. On rare occasions when I need a little encouragement, I have my two pet African Grey parrots in the next room ready to help if I can provide a small treat.

Questions for Thought and Discussion

How effective has parroting been in your own therapeutic work?

What techniques do you find most effective in demonstrating that you are listening?

Are there particular clients with whom parroting is more effective? Less effective?

Holding Two Worlds Together—Apart: On the Duality of Being a Therapist

Consigned to Separate Lives

Am I the only therapist who sometimes feels that she lives two separate lives? One with my friends, family, and loved ones; and another entangled in the stories of my client’s lives, dramas, and company. What other professions dictate that the personal life can’t intersect with the professional? CIA agent, detective, spy? The duality of being a therapist often feels to me like I am holding onto two different worlds at the same time. Yet, as mysterious as what goes on between me and client often is, the paradox is that it is also meant to be an open and safe space where they can truly allow themselves to be authentic.

Therapists, social workers, psychologists, counselors, healers, and superheroes live double lives. We go to work every day and immerse ourselves in the stories of our clients. We fight for them, cry with them, laugh, get angry, and know things about them that most people don’t. We form relationships and bonds. We see them at their lowest, and watch them transform, fall again, move through relationships, pain, loss, birth, and death. We come to care about them deeply. We learn to love them. Yet we go home each and every day, and the people in our intimate lives know nothing about these stories. Sure, our significant other may know that we had a rough day or that we had to send our chronically suicidal patient to the hospital yet again, but they don’t know and will never know the complex, rich lives that we learn to treasure. The stories we hold dear and how brightly our clients’ souls shine even during agonizing darkness are ours alone, not to share outside of the therapeutic space.

Who’s Internalizing Whom?

I went back to school in my mid thirties to get my MSW and felt like I didn’t have much time to spare to really do what I wanted to do. I wanted to know people. To really know them. It was naïve of me to think that getting to truly see my people while having them tucked away from my real world would be easy. Just part of the job. However, it remains something that I often think about, struggle with, and theorize over as my career progresses. Part of the old school education I received when entering this field centered around a stoicism towards our people that I can’t quite understand. I was trained to travel the profession with an ingrained fear that it’s weird, and even wrong, to think about my clients when I am not with them. They are the ones who are supposed to internalize me in order to “feel better”—the process is not supposed to work the other way around!

To internalize is to incorporate within oneself guiding principles learned in the course of socialization. One of the biggest wins my clients experience is when they begin to internalize me outside of the room. When my re-parenting, nurturing, and insight become guiding lights in their every day, and when they don’t feel alone and know that the faithful kindness I provide them within our relationship is present even outside of our being near one other. Much is written about this phenomenon and the changes that clients start to make when they take us in. But what about the other way around? What about when we internalize our clients? I have thought about this often.

In his brilliant book The Gift of Therapy, Irvin Yalom urges us to allow our clients to matter to us, to allow them entry into our minds and to influence us. He also asks us to share this with them. When I read those words, layers of shame and frustration within myself seemed to melt away. For so long I felt guilty that I thought about my clients and their worlds long after our weekly meetings ended. How liberating it was to allow them to be with me, change me, to think of them, and allow their stories to move parts of me as well. One day, I was having a particularly hard week personally. I was letting old feelings of “not good enough” seep into my story. Not a good enough parent, wife, daughter, friend—you get the drill. I was sitting in session with a client, and she looked over to me and told me she wanted to send me an article she found online that “made me think of you because it talks about unconditional love.”

We finished our session, and I forgot about the article she had sent me. Only later in the evening when I was winding down for the day did I open what she sent me. As I read the words on that page, something that I had been missing all week snapped me back to reality. It said, “When you doubt yourself, when you feel the world turning swiftly against you—keep loving. Love so big that you become it, because you are love.” I cried. My client got it, and she gave the gift back to me. I thought of her knowing this, even when I did not. Next week in session, I gulped deeply and said, “Thank you—you gave me a gift last week, and it helped me.” Glossy, tear-filled eyes from both of us. It appears that internalizing my client was as important as the other way around. As we are told by Diana Fosha, client and therapist can and often do exist in the mind of the other.

Therapy as Co-Regulation

My job is to expertly track, monitor, and regulate not only the nervous systems of my clients, but my own as well—to hold two worlds simultaneously together at the same time. As I notice the body language, rhythm, facial expressions, and breathing rate of the people with whom I work, so do I track my own. In turn, my client and I are dancing together with two nervous systems coming in and out of connection—regulating (and sometimes mis-attuning) each other. One time, there was some extremely disappointing news that I had to share with one of my clients, and as I waited for our session, my anxiety was at an all-time high. How was she going to take the news? Was it going to set her back? My heart was in knots. My mind was racing. I was clearly overthinking everything. The session time came, and the second I saw her eyes my anxiety seemed to melt away. I heard myself say, “It’s going to be ok.” It was that quick, that simple, and that magic. I felt safe in our relationship, as did she. There were few words. We didn’t need it. Our nervous systems just knew, and we were both ok.

After that incident I asked myself, “What was that?” I even brought it up in my case consultation that week. I was afraid that I was being self-indulgent or entangled in some mysterious transference/counter-transference fiasco. Allan Schore tells us that psychotherapy entails intersubjective work which is focused more on being with rather than doing for clients, especially during moments of affective stress. In looking back, I realize that moment was not about what was spoken or wasn’t, but rather how we were with one another that made all the difference—for both of us.

“How do you do it?” “How can you not let any of this stuff get to you?” “It must be hard.” These are just a few of the comments and questions I have received from those in my personal life. I am not sure why people think that it doesn’t get to me (us). The fact is that it’s not only ok that it gets to me, it’s necessary. I am not talking about compassion fatigue or vicarious trauma, which can all too well happen if I don’t monitor and take care of my own self as well. I am talking about the actual day-to-day lives of my clients that I am privy to, are a part of, and are engrossed with. How can I “shut it off” when somebody I know intimately tells me a harrowing tale of abuse and neglect—or about when somebody mistreats them—or, conversely, when they start to fall in love and the things that at one time seemed impossible are starting to blossom? These things impact me. I take them with me and carry them as I walk through my day even outside of the therapy room. The resonances that work to create neural circuitry and bond the hearts and minds of our clients do the same for us—if we allow them to.

I’m not going to lie, sometimes I want the buzz in my mind of the two simultaneous worlds, mine and theirs (so many of them!) to shut off, because honestly, I need a break. But as I tell so many of my clients, resisting the natural contours of the mind is part of the problem. If we simply observe and validate that something touched us, and we hold it dear to us, that we are worried, or afraid that we said the wrong thing, then maybe we can all relax in knowing that our hearts and minds are human, too. I am not meant to “shut it off” and be “numb” to my clients’ experiences and stories. I must allow them to change me, move me, and be brave enough to let them know they did.

How Odd Our Profession Is!

As I go about my daily life outside of my office and socialize with friends and family I often find myself catching my words when something reminds me of one of my clients or it relates to what so-and-so said in session. I could be having a rip-roaring girl’s night out with a couple of girlfriends, and when I see one of them wearing a butterfly necklace made of rhinestones, I think to myself, “Oh, Grace (name changed) would love that!” It latches onto the tip of my tongue, ready to spill out. None of my friends know Grace, or the fact that she loves butterflies—but I do, and I immediately think of her. How weird that I can’t really share that, and it’s just a fleeting thought that only I know. How odd our profession is, I think to myself in that moment. It’s like a cozy little secret compartment in a part of my brain that carries all their cobwebs, but nobody in my “real” life really knows how important or special this person is to me—or that they love butterflies. How odd it is indeed.

There are some days that are intensely difficult—when crisis seems to erupt at every turn or the stories seem to be too hard to bear. Having spent some hectic days while working at an IOP/PHP and continuing to do so because most of my clients struggle with complex trauma, there are moments when it feels like I am energetically depleted and exhausted. Talking a client down from the brink of suicide and having them agree to go to a hospital, mediating between difficult family members, or listening to a violent fight as I try to call the police. All in a day’s work. Come home, look forlorn, have my husband ask me if everything is ok and if there is anything he can do. Do I try to explain or just sit with it, do I try to forget it, or tuck it back into the part of my brain that is called “work”? The next day I silently make my coffee in the morning. “You need to find a way to detach, Anna,” my husband says. How easy that is to say—but how hard it is to practice. I see people week after week—some for years. I don’t see some of my friends and family as much as I see my clients. Yet somehow the two worlds have to remain separate, both somewhat hidden from the other.

I open my daily planner and notice one of my scribbles on the back page: “is it my broken heart—Or—yours that I feel?” There are days when I am strangely unsure—but it becomes my job to find out. Giving into the empathic powers that are my work’s calling can be extraordinarily challenging on some days and make me susceptible to compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma. Guilty of both. Holding space for and witnessing suffering opens me up to wounds as well. Another interesting paradox—to truly heal them, we must allow our people to influence us and let them know it, but doing so can open our own cuts as well.

Yet it’s not always so harrowing and serious. In and during therapy, I laugh—a lot. What an often misunderstood part of the work. To go on the journey of pain, I must also find and allow lightness to enter the chambers of healing. I’m not talking about laughter as a defense or a way to deflect shame and fear. When I was a little girl, we had to sit Shiva (a seven day mourning period for Jews) after somebody passed away. Some of the best moments would be spent laughing. Yes, there were tears and anger and irritation as I was stuck with my family for seven days, watching various people coming in and out with tray upon tray of food and reminiscing about our loved one’s demise. It was comforting to spend time with friends and family during the first painful days of loss. But what I recall most is the first time that laughter erupted. It was like somebody allowed us to have that feeling, too. Grief and sadness were making room for joy and the hope that laughter would again find us.

My clients are some of the funniest people I know. They joke, smile, and belly laugh—and they can still do it after unthinkable loss, tragedy, and heartache. What can be more beautiful than that? And I laugh with them, for if I am to hold space for all the bad stuff, there has to be room —lots of room—for the light stuff, too. Laughter can be just as intimate as pain.

The Sharing of Intimacy

Intimacy is closeness between two people that builds over time. Intimacy—real intimacy—is allowing our raw, unrehearsed reality to spill out in front of another and be held in their embrace with resonance, acceptance, and nurturance. I was speaking with a colleague recently about how sometimes it’s hard for our loved ones to understand that “not taking your work personally” can be difficult to maintain. “Don’t you feel like the connections you have with your people is sometimes more intimate than you have with some of your friends and family?” she said. Yes! I know some of these people better than I know some of the closest people in my real life. How peculiar this work is, how incredibly glorious and beautiful in its capacity to let us know the essence of another soul. Yet how divided it often feels from the realm of our everyday life. The intimacy that is created in a therapeutic relationship, if cultivated correctly and appropriately, can change both our lives because part of their journey is ours, too. Here we are traveling together and separately at the same time.

Some days I feel like it’s a lonely road to travel down this path. It makes me go to chambers in my mind that others don’t know exist, thinking about people and things that others know nothing about. I question the real from the imaginary and how these divergent paths meet at a central place and have the capacity to move mountains and change lives. Both theirs and my own. I still get confused by it all. I am learning to accept some of the limitations and unrequited longing that both I as therapist and my clients must live with within this relationship. I am working on finding peace in knowing that my time with my clients doesn’t have to be real to anyone but myself and them to matter. In that respect, I am incredibly lucky to have a bond that has the power to transform, shake me into feeling more alive, and cultivate the ability to give and receive love. That is the legacy I impart to my clients as they embrace the world at large—and perhaps the one they leave me with as well.

Interpersonal Connection: Noticing the Needs of Others

Ancient Roots

In my recent book, I introduced an approach to physical, emotional, and spiritual health called The Connections Paradigm. This is a technique derived from an ancient Jewish tradition that I have used successfully in my clinical practice with clients.

The idea behind the paradigm is that human beings, at any given moment, are either “connected” or “disconnected” across three key relationships. To be “connected” means to be in a loving, harmonious, and fulfilling relationship; to be “disconnected” means, of course, the opposite.

The three relationships are those between our souls and our bodies (Inner Connection), ourselves and others (Interpersonal Connection,) and ourselves and a Higher Power (Spiritual Connection). These relationships are hierarchical, with each depending on the one that precedes it.

I began learning about interpersonal connection early in my career as a clinician. Back then, I was meeting with patients who seemed to have every need you could imagine. Some of my patients had needs that were similar to my own; others had needs that I never personally experienced.

“I struggled to place myself in the shoes of people who lived in circumstances very different from my own”, like the time I worked on a geriatric unit and treated several older patients with age-related problems that I had never encountered. There were other patients from whom I learned about culture-specific needs that I will probably never fully grasp, let alone experience. In other cases, I saw needs associated with specific health concerns that I never had, and with dire personal and financial circumstances that I pray to avoid during my lifetime.

Through this process, I concluded that being sensitive to each patient’s needs—i.e., interpersonal connection—is one of the most important skills in being an effective therapist.

I have also observed the most common ways that people fail to notice the needs of others. Once, a twenty-nine-year-old male patient of mine named Danny completely disputed the importance of noticing other people’s needs.

“I’m more of a doer,” Danny told me. “I only feel like I’m making progress when I’m actively involved in something. And at the end of the day, getting things done is more important than thinking about other people.”

“But how do you know what another person needs unless you develop your sensitivity?” I asked.

“A lot of the time their needs are obvious,” he said. “And if not, they should tell me.”

“Doesn’t it feel better when someone notices your needs without you telling them?”

“Um?.?.?.??I guess so,” he said.

“And let’s be honest,” I said, “do people really always know what they need? There are times when everyone in someone’s life can see clearly what they need except them. And sometimes we are sure we need one thing, but someone else can see that we really need something else.”

“What’s your point?” Danny asked. “I just don’t want to sit and think about other people, I guess. Is that so bad?”

Danny’s Story

Danny first came to treatment after a brief psychiatric hospital inpatient stay for severe depression. He had lived at his parents’ home for several years after college until he finally got a job and decided to move out. Within a few months, however, he was seriously considering suicide and ultimately checked himself into a hospital.

“”I’ve always gotten depressed, but this was worse”,” he said. “When I was living by myself, I was not really thriving. I had a job I hated and not much of a social life. I thought about moving home, but my depression just kept getting worse until I knew I needed to go into the hospital. I had to stop working, and I didn’t really have enough money.”

After his hospital stay, Danny decided to move back home with his parents. “I just need some time to relax and not worry about bills,” he said.

Danny’s psychiatrists recommended outpatient care, and he came to my New York clinic a few days after he left the hospital. As part of his treatment, I stressed the importance of self-care, positive thinking, and staying active. His condition improved relatively quickly. But as he started getting better, he experienced a backlash from his siblings.

Danny’s parents were elderly and had health problems. His father, 84 years old, was going through the early stages of dementia, and his 75-year-old mother, who had suffered several bone fractures as a result of severe osteoporosis, could no longer go up and down the stairs without help. They both struggled to do basic chores to keep their house in order, and Danny’s siblings felt that he was putting pressure on them by moving back home.

“I basically do whatever my parents ask me to do,” Danny said. “We have a good relationship. They say they’re happy that I’m home. But my brothers and sisters say I’m making it harder for them. Last weekend we all had a ‘siblings meeting’ to talk about Mom and Dad, and they basically ganged up on me. They said the house is dirty and that I’m not keeping up with the laundry and stuff like that. My older brother comes just about every day and he’s been giving me the stink eye for months, and I really didn’t know why until this weekend. We used to be really close. But now that I know how they feel I’m really annoyed.”

Danny was spending a lot of time applying for jobs and making sure he was taking care of himself so that his depression would not return. “They think I’m just sitting around doing nothing,” he said, “but I need to focus on getting back on my feet. And really, the house is not that messy. My parents have complex medical issues, but basically they’re doing okay.”

“You said you do everything your parents ask you to do,” I said. “So what are those things?”

“They don’t even ask me to do much. Sometimes my mom will ask me to help her get up the stairs, or my dad will ask me to help him to move something heavy. But they like to handle things on their own.”

With Danny’s permission, I spoke with his parents and siblings and got an entirely different story. “Danny was simply not aware that he was creating a significant financial and interpersonal burden on his parents and making their old age much more stressful”. He expected that his mother would cook, clean, and do laundry for him, and he would routinely leave his belongings around the house, even though they presented a tripping hazard for his parents.

His siblings were frustrated and even exasperated with his selfishness, to the point that they wanted to throw him out of their parents’ home even if it would lead to rehospitalization or worse. I managed to calm the siblings down, with the hope that I could get through to Danny in therapy.

During the next few sessions, I continued to discuss the core concepts of interpersonal connection with Danny, and he eventually acknowledged that his interpersonal style was a significant contributor to his depression over time.

Other Peoples’ Needs

“Years ago, when I lived in California with a friend after college, it was my highest point of functioning. I had a job, a girlfriend, and things were going pretty well. But over time, my friends got fed up with me because I have this unhealthy tendency to focus on myself more than others. I grew apart from my girlfriend and also my roommate, and eventually moved out on my own. But the costs of living were so expensive, and the next thing I knew, I was in major debt. It’s been a bad situation ever since.”

“There are ways to improve how you connect with others,” I told Danny, and he seemed interested to learn more. “Interpersonal connection starts with noticing other people and what they need, and eventually making an effort to make them happy. Being sensitive to others’ needs helps us to remain connected to others and helps us to feel more confident and happier ourselves.”

As a preliminary exercise, I encouraged Danny to make a comprehensive list of someone else’s needs. Danny initially wanted to focus on his older brother, but I encouraged him to choose one of his parents instead. “You see them a lot more often,” I said, “so you have a better perspective on what they need. And they seem to have a lot of difficulties right now, so many of their needs are more noticeable.”

Danny reacted negatively to my suggestion, suspecting it indicated my agreement with his siblings that he was not caring for his parents’ needs. “I’m not making any judgments on how you’re behaving in your relationships,” I said. “You’re my patient. I’m focused on helping you.” Danny reluctantly complied with my recommendation, and we spent nearly half a session making a list of all his parents’ needs.

The exercise turned out to be a powerful experience for him. He became especially conscious of the consequences of his parents’ physical health decline, and how he had indeed become more of a burden to them than he had previously acknowledged.

At our next session he said, “It’s hard for both of them to go out anymore. My dad used to be so active, he took a lot of pride in his work. Now he can’t do anything but sit at home and watch TV. It’s definitely not easy for my mom that she can’t go out to see my nieces and nephews. She used to take care of them every day, but now it’s too hard for her even to go visit them at all.”

It was slow going, but we were getting somewhere.

In truth, Danny had already been aware of his parents’ needs, but verbalizing them made them more visceral. I asked him to focus not only on his parents’ emotional needs but also on their physical needs. “Well, when it comes to physical needs, I guess they have enough money, so they’ve got that taken care of.”

“But your mom is in a lot of pain, right? Relief from pain is also a very strong physical need,” I said.

“That’s true. But I can’t do anything about that.”

“Maybe, but the point is to consider her needs, not necessarily to solve them. What about your dad?”

“He moves okay and he’s not in pain, but I guess his dementia makes it hard for him to handle all the basic things that he used to do to feel good. We put notes around the house because he doesn’t always remember where things are or how to use them. My brother told me we’re all going to start wearing name tags when his dementia worsens.”

Danny became emotional as he began taking serious stock of all the ways his parents were struggling to meet their own needs. “The thing is,” he said, “I still can’t see how it helps for me to get upset about it. It’s not like there’s anything I can do.”

“Maybe not,” I replied, “but being mindful of other people’s problems is important. That feeling of empathy you’re experiencing now is interpersonal connection. I can see now why it’s hard for you. The truth is that you really feel their pain. It’s very hard for you to see them suffer. It’s actually because you are a caring person inside that it’s so challenging for you to acknowledge that they are suffering.”

Danny started to cry, and then a wellspring of emotion came forth. He was visibly distraught with how his parents were suffering and how he had contributed to their pain. Over the following month, Danny’s behavior started to change. He not only improved his self-care but became much more considerate of his parents’ needs, and even his siblings.

Danny also became less introverted and eventually found a decent-paying job, where he developed friendships with several of his coworkers. A few months later, he said, “If I’m being honest, I’m not doing that much more to help anyone, but even thinking about other peoples’ needs has given me much more perspective. I have more interesting conversations with people now. They open up more since they see that I’m focused on what they’re saying, and that I care about them. Even my conversations with my siblings are better.”

***


As my work with Danny illustrates, interpersonal connection requires noticing other people’s needs with true sensitivity. Doing so enhances our ability to help them when they do not explicitly ask for our assistance. Furthermore, the importance of noticing others’ needs goes beyond improving their wellbeing; our own connection benefits as well when we develop finely-tuned empathy for other people.
 

Accurate Empathy is the Heartbeat of Rogerian Psychotherapy

Person-centered therapy (PCT) is a radical therapeutic ethic that leads to therapeutic discipline. It is not purely idiosyncratic, with therapists doing anything willy-nilly with their clients, reacting to compulsion or fancy. That is not person-centered therapy in the slightest. Person-centered therapy is a refusal to either disempower clients or to kowtow to scientism. It is a commitment to seek understanding over giving advice and to express genuine regard for humanness.

Unfortunately, critics of PCT often cast it as a kind of therapeutic anarchy or as lacking an empirical research base. While I do not intend this as an opportunity to refute baseless critique, I do wish to convey a more objective view, at a glimpse, of one of the pioneering PCT models: Rogerian therapy. I will also share, acknowledging my own bias against it, a contrast to PCT by one of the many CBT-like therapy models currently being held out as an “evidence-based practice” therapeutic approach. And I’ll provide a glimpse into accurate empathy in action.

Accurate Empathy

Carl Rogers had a highly disciplined view of the person-centered approach. He said many times that therapists should be careful to “reflect the emotionalized attitude being expressed.” In his 1942 volume, Counseling and Psychotherapy, he used this phrase again and again. What he also said again and again is that you should not reflect emotions or aspects of the client’s mindset that you think are there but have not yet been revealed—Rogers said that although you may suppose a client feels a particular feeling or that you suppose a client thinks a particular thought, you should stay with what we now term the intersubjective experience between you and the client. As these “attitudes” surface—not as you surface them—you reflect them in a way as a hypothesis. “When you say _______, or when I experience you _______, you’re bringing in this therapeutic material in a way that we can work with together. Am I getting this right?”

Those outside the fold who don’t understand the person-centered approach may wrongly assume such therapists think of themselves as clairvoyant empaths—that they claim psychic intuition. Person-centered therapists don’t believe they’re clairvoyant; quite the opposite. They deeply value checking their intuitions with clients as necessary for promoting true understanding. At the same time, no model can be purely logical, rational, or objective, and so that perhaps hints at the dialectic inherent in a person-centered paradigm.

The most powerful condition that Carl Rogers talked about was an intersubjective experience that he called “accurate empathy.” What Rogers meant by accurate empathy wasn’t that sometimes there is a kind of clairvoyance—that a therapist who is super-empathic can sense someone’s emotions better than someone else or can better identify with someone else’s experience than another. Rather, he was talking about this way of checking in with the client in an open-handed way: “When you say _______, is _______ what you mean?” “When I felt _______ from you when you said _______, I get a sense from you but want to better understand: are you feeling _______? Or maybe kind of _________?” And if you learn from the client that you were wrong, you gain in trust and in insight; and if you learn that you were right, you gain in trust and in insight.

It’s this careful dance of intersubjective experience—respectful warmness, genuineness, not presuming to know another’s experience—that is what Carl Rogers described when he spoke about “accurate empathy.” It’s why he cautioned us to reflect only the emotionalized attitude being expressed and not to reflect other things—other thoughts, other feelings that we think that the client might be having that they have not said anything about explicitly and would amount to mere conjecture. If we’re truly Rogerian, we can conjecture on the basis only of what the client has expressed to us, not on the basis of what the client has not expressed to us. By doing so, we stay firmly in the flow of the dance with a client rather than putting ourselves in the position of expert, as if we have on one extreme, pure logic, or on the other extreme, clairvoyance. Accurate empathy is the bullseye of Rogerian psychotherapy.

When Evidence-Based Claims and Person-Centered Practices Collide

There is a kind of protocol, then, within a Rogerian approach, but it is important to contrast this with the kinds of protocols we see within “evidence-based practice (EBP)” therapy manuals. One model, which is an offshoot of CBT for which I received training, provides clinicians with a literal “intervention flow.” In the model, called the Common Elements Treatment Approach (CETA), clients experiencing “predominantly anxiety problems” should be treated by (1) Engagement/Encouraging Participation, (2) Psychoeducation, (3) Cognitive Coping, (4) Gradual Exposure: Memories and/or Live, and (5) Cognitive Reprocessing. This explicit ordering directs clinicians in how to provide the moment-to-moment therapy, and these intervention protocols correspond to semi-scripted guidance for the clinician to follow.

To the extent that the clinician diverges from this semi-scripted methodology, they are considered noncompliant with the model’s so-called “evidence-based” methodology. There are similar intervention flows to be utilized with clients who are predominantly experiencing depression symptoms and for those predominantly experiencing symptoms of both anxiety and trauma, for instance.

At the CETA training I participated in, we role played. It was a humorous experience for me and my therapist colleagues as we literally read through scripts and were then evaluated by the trainers on the basis of how we pieced together modular scripts—that is, on the basis of whether the flow of scripts we utilized matched well with the recommended treatment “flow” prescribed by the name-brand EBP treatment model. It felt artificial. It felt antithetical to a person-centered approach. That was a great example of the kind of collision I think many therapists are experiencing within managed care systems that are increasingly requiring fidelity to evidence-based practice models.

These sort of “evidence-based practice” therapies are clearly antithetical to intersubjective experiencing, the fundamental therapeutic factor in a person-centered approach. Imagine how much room a semi-scripted approach like CETA, with its prescribed intervention flow, leaves for personal choice, for client agency, and for intersubjective experience. Almost none.

Leaving Room for Clinical Expertise and Patient Values

In 2005, the American Psychological Association published their Report of the 2005 Presidential Task Force on Evidence-Based Practice. This report is frequently cited as a defense of evidence-based practice. I have heard many who defend the sort of approach that I am criticizing here cite this very report. I am a bit baffled by that when I read from the report myself, which provides this definition of EBP: “Evidence-based practice is the integration of best research evidence with clinical expertise and patient values.” Here lies the hope that EBP does provide space for clinical expertise and patient values. Hope, anyway.

The report also says “the use and misuse of evidence-based principles in the practice of health care has affected the dissemination of health care funds, but not always to the benefit of the patient.” It goes on: “Even guidelines that were clearly designed to educate rather than to legislate, were interdisciplinary in nature, and provided extensive empirical and clinical information did not always accurately translate the evidence they reviewed into the algorithms that determined the protocol for treatment under particular sets of circumstances.”

And, finally, I’ll share this third excerpt: “The goals of evidence-based practice initiatives to improve quality and cost-effectiveness and to enhance accountability are laudable and broadly supported within psychology, although empirical evidence of system-wide improvements following their implementation is still limited. However, the psychological community—including both scientists and practitioners—is concerned that evidence-based practice initiatives not be misused as a justification for inappropriately restricting access to care and choice of treatments.”

I really appreciate this APA report. They provide the cautions, caveats, and contours of getting it right—of the necessity of integrating clinical expertise and patient values. But unfortunately, what I’ve seen is that many times evidence-based practice initiatives are misused.

For those who would defend the promise within evidence-based practice research and implementation efforts, I would have a very difficult time doing anything else but agreeing with the ideals and the shining examples of EBP. My greatest concern is the way that the research on EBP is systematically used to promote scripted approaches that do not leave room for a person-centered approach. Misunderstandings about EBP have been translated into manualized practice and into public managed care contracts, which shapes the terrain of outpatient systems of care and, consequently, the types of therapeutic modalities that in actual fact are being practiced across the world. These contracts have power to reshape our field in really significant ways.

In December 2017, I attended the Evolution of Psychotherapy conference in Anaheim, California, which was attended by many psychotherapy pioneers, including Aaron Beck, the father of cognitive behavioral therapy. Interestingly, in a workshop of Beck’s, he expressed a lot of caution about some of the directions of CBT as a field in itself, and about some of the ways that managed care has misused some of the research findings. But I was utterly stunned by his statements during the Q&A portion of the workshop, when someone asked 96 year-old Aaron Beck what wisdom he might give to young therapists just entering the field. His response? “Read Carl Rogers.”

Unfortunately, many of the so-called evidence-based practice therapies we see in the market now do not leave sufficient space for the type of therapeutic relationship that is most therapeutically beneficial. Some agency settings will provide the space and bandwidth that are necessary to practice with fidelity to your own training, values, and the disciplines within the therapeutic relationship. If you are fortunate to practice in a setting that allows you such space—to practice at a level of integrity—then you are fortunate indeed. I must be careful to acknowledge that honing great skill in this practice requires a great deal of intention and discipline. Some settings simply will not provide the space and support necessary to develop the craft of a skillful person-centered approach. Therapists must evaluate their values and act accordingly.

Accurate Empathy in Action

I can remember that initially Karys was not too happy to sit with me during our weekly sessions. Having experienced a childhood of broken trust and sexual trauma, and after having bounced around between too many foster homes over too many years, she—an older middle schooler—was understandably reluctant to relax into my couch and lean into our relationship.

I administered a simple self-assessment that helped me learn whether Karys had any enjoyment of expressive activities such as writing stories, poetry, and song lyrics, sketching drawings, or sculpting clay. She indicated a particular interest in drawing.

As I maintained a collection of colored pencils and drawing paper in my office, I offered them to her, and, another common practice of mine, I showed her an array of different colored folders she could choose to keep her drawings in at my office, so they would be available to her each week. She was welcome to take any of her drawings home, but I asked that she allow me to make a copy of any piece she would be taking with her. If she did not wish for me to have a copy, I would honor her decision.

Every time that she came to see me, I had art paper and colored pencils waiting for her. I sat with her and attempted to get to know her and to work with her to help her organize her emotions into reflections and her reflections into meaning. All the while, she organized her troubles into sketch art. On one occasion, while telling me the story behind something she had drawn, she fell apart into tears. In the midst of that, she cursed so loudly that I could hear the footsteps on creaky hallway floors of a coworker come to discreetly check on things at my door.

Karys entered therapy oscillating between expressive anger, reflective sadness, and emotional distance. These matched her foster parents’ reports from home. During our first two months of therapy, I observed difficult interactions between Karys and her foster parents, especially highly defensive behaviors by her. In her first several sessions with me, she had seemed emotionally rigid. As time wore along, I began to experience Karys differently. She seemed, in the context of our conversations over her sketch art, to be appropriately vulnerable, emotionally pliable, and more deeply reflective. As I tentatively checked with her my understanding of the feelings she was beginning to express—through her art and verbally—”she seemed to be enlivened by the sheer honesty and authenticity of these encounters”. However, her parents’ reports to me were nearly unchanged; the Karys living at home remained stuck in an alternate dimension.

The difference, in my view, between the kind of expression and interaction that Karys experienced in therapy (eventually) versus the kind frequently experienced during the rest of her weeks was a difference of control. During the week—during the course of her life, for that matter—she felt little of it. There were a number of reasons this could be said to be true. Yet during our sessions, she had a great deal of control. And she liked that.

With her permission, I invited Karys’s foster parents, Boyd and Angie, to join us for three sessions, in which I set the tone with a few rules, designed to keep Boyd and Angie from utilizing our time to provide me information or to bring any other agenda into session. In short, Karys would guide us, with the caveat that, as the therapist, I would take some liberties in providing gently offered facilitation as I saw fit. My goal for my own facilitative efforts was, in essence, to model for Boyd and Angie the rhythm and rhyme, give and take of noticing and asking, along with tentatively checking my understanding of what Karys was communicating about her own thoughts, attitudes, and feelings. According to Karys, I often got it wrong. She boldly corrected me again and again, and I’d check again to make sure I understood as fully as possible. She sometimes expressed irritation when I was “being weird” or dense, yet she was generous in spirit, even still. I’d defend myself playfully.

We’d laugh.

I wondered if Boyd and Angie noticed the elegance of empathic exchange, yet out of conviction, I took care not to slip into a mode of teaching reliant on conveying insight in a way that might be perceived as patronizing. I trusted that their experience would generate a more powerful and sustaining insight. Some time later, Boyd asked to speak briefly with me after Karys had achieved her treatment goals and was discharged from care. He said, “It’s like the light in her has been turned brighter, and she’s opening up in a new way. She actually has begun talking to me about past abuses, just matter-of-factly, really…and what’s more, she’s been kidding around with us a lot more lately.” He also acknowledged, “It really is something, how when we shifted over to what you had modeled for us with Karys, we were able to better understand what she was experiencing. And how she seemed to be able to better understand, of us, the love we had been trying so hard to show. It’s as if we were a threat before. Now we’re getting somewhere.”

*****

Beyond their use in justifying health insurance reimbursement, terms like “pathology” and “disorder” are often untenable and, more importantly, unhelpful categorizations of a person’s experience. Treatment should be no more modular than the person. A wise mentor once contrasted for me the importance of conceptualizing effective psychotherapy as a process of “puzzling through a process with someone,” rather than the kind of rote application of skills characteristic of current forms of “evidence-based practice.”

To become increasingly flexible and resilient, clients must experience freedom within felt pushes and pulls of powerful forces in which problems maintain themselves. Therapists have skillful empathy to offer, and “empathy at its best has power to re-shape experience”. Once clients experience themselves feeling more understood in the therapeutic setting, they often experience themselves feeling more understood in life. Do not underestimate the value of feeling understood.

Accurate empathy is the heartbeat not only of Rogerian psychotherapy, but also of all modes of psychotherapy. Whatever specific model of intervention is being employed, if a therapist is not fully present as a warm, accepting, genuine, and caring person who is truly seeking to understand, then the power center of therapy remains turned off and, for all practical purposes, ineffective. Ultimately, a person-centered process—not a manualized technique—is the most essential active ingredient in therapy.

References

American Psychological Association, Presidential Task Force on Evidence-Based Practice. (2005). Report of the 2005 Presidential Task Force on Evidence-Based Practice. Retrieved from https://www.apa.org/practice/resources/evidence/evidence-based-report.pdf

Beck, A., & Beck, J. (2017, December 16). New breakthroughs in cognitive therapy: Applications to the severely mentally ill, presented at Evolution of Psychotherapy conference, Anaheim, California, USA, December 13-17, 2017.

Merchant, L, Kirkland, C. & Ranna-Stewart, M. (2016, March 10-11). Common Elements Treatment Approach (CETA) Learning Collaborative training, Spokane, Washington, USA.

Rogers, C.R. (1942). Counseling and psychotherapy: Newer concepts in practice. The Riverside Press.

After the Diagnosis: Helping Patients Cope With their Emotions

The New Normal

“I just got diagnosed. Now what do I do?”

The focus of my professional work is on helping patients to cope with medical diagnosis, so I hear this question a lot. But many psychotherapists tell me that their patients also talk to them about their health issues, including sudden, serious medical diagnoses.

As mental health professionals, we may provide the only opportunity that newly-diagnosed patients have to talk to someone in this situation. The traditional medical establishment is equipped to help patients from a medical, but not an emotional, perspective. Family members and friends are also suddenly thrust into the emotional chaos surrounding the diagnosis, and often need help with their own emotions and helplessness.

Our patients facing a medical diagnosis look to us for help in sorting out complicated and scary feelings during a highly stressful time so that that they can move forward in their lives. In this regard, our job is to help patients define and embrace a “new normal” —with a positive self-image, retention of as many cherished routines and rituals as possible and supportive relationships—but also help them to integrate the effects of treatment and make ongoing lifestyle adjustments. Patients facing a diagnosis want nothing more than to be as normal as possible.

If newly-diagnosed patients are able to get needed emotional support early on in their diagnosis, they will be that much better prepared to cope as they move forward with their treatment. As therapists, we help them to prepare for the road ahead.

Medical Diagnosis=Stress

Receiving a catastrophic medical diagnosis is a stressful and sometimes traumatic event. Newly-diagnosed patients feel an immediate sense of uncertainty—life will never be quite the same. And life may end. And like other stressful events, our minds and bodies are hardwired by nature to react. The initial reaction is shock, as our conscious minds essentially shut down while, subconsciously, this information is processed.

As the shock fades, it gives way to one of three reactions that occur in response to stress: flight, freeze, and fight. The flight response is primarily an emotional reaction, and patients may be so caught up in their emotions that they may not be able to make objective decisions regarding their condition and its treatment. On the other hand, those having a freeze response may be unable to acknowledge their feelings at all or may have a fatalistic view, either of which may result in inaction. Those in fight response are best equipped to deal with a new diagnosis. They have access to their emotions as well as their logical resources, and are able to harness both as they face their illness. Most important, patients can be taught how to be Fighters.

These basic reactions impact the kinds of emotions that newly-diagnosed patients experience, and how they cope with these emotions, as well as how they deal with their diagnosis from a rational standpoint (e.g. information-gathering). For better or worse, how patients cope during those first few days and weeks after receiving the diagnosis will have implications throughout their treatment process—from decision-making to coping with the treatment to ongoing recovery and life management. And if those patients find their way to the office of a mental health professional, we can play a formative role in their journey.

The First Reaction

Whether catastrophic or chronic, almost invariably patients describe their reaction with one word: shock. People often experience numbness, as if they are in a trance, or simply have “no feeling at all.” The experience of shock is often associated with disbelief or a sense that their emotions might be so strong that they should be held at bay for fear that they might be overwhelming. There are of course exceptions. For example, when a condition from the past is recurring, or when symptoms over time have rendered the diagnosis inevitable, patients may report an initial feeling that “the other shoe has finally dropped” or that they are about to go down a road that that they have previously been on. Still, it is only human nature to cling to that possibility that “it won’t happen to me.” This belief is mainly unconscious; after all, most of us don’t spend our time assessing our chances of getting hit by a medical diagnosis.

Carole described her reaction when she was first diagnosed with cancer.

"It was like the world suddenly stood still. I mean, all I could hear was my own breathing, and the thumping of my heartbeat. At first, I was completely numb, and I wasn’t thinking anything. And then I started saying the word “cancer” over and over. Still, no feelings. But deep inside, I realized that, no matter what, my life was never going to be the same."

The initial shock may last a moment, hours, days, or may continue on, as the patient’s emotional and rational sides are both struggling with the news. If you have been through the experience of a diagnosis, you might remember how you first reacted, or didn’t react, to the news; or maybe you have seen someone else go through it and felt your own helplessness as you watched them struggle.

In a way, being faced with a diagnosis, while not usually a death sentence, is similar to hearing about a death. As Carole, in the example above, described her diagnosis—nothing will ever be quite the same. Newly-diagnosed patients are left with the knowledge that, yes, bad things can happen, that they really aren’t invincible after all. And the diagnosis —whether it requires extensive treatment that interrupts normal life for months or longer, or whether it requires medication and alterations in diet and lifestyle—will at some point require the patient’s acknowledgement and full attention. Knowing that this looms ahead can also be initially overwhelming for the patient, and the healthcare professionals they are working with may or may not be able to provide emotional support for their patients.

During this time of initial shock, patients are often not open to more information, nor willing to discuss their diagnosis and what it means. It is difficult to communicate with patients who may be unable to hear or comprehend what they are being told, which presents a particular challenge to their healthcare providers who may need to begin a medication regimen and/or make a decision about the path of treatment. The newly-diagnosed patient may need some time and space to sit with the news, and if the healthcare professional pushes them too hard to discuss the treatment plan or to make a treatment decision during this time, the patient may become defensive and refuse to talk further, potentially becoming even more resistant.

Patience is required. Human beings can’t be forced to take in more information than they can process at any given moment moment, and often the best way to help patience move through this early stage is to be willing to sit with them, offering support while being sensitive to the readiness of the patient to process this news. Psychotherapy can provide vital support during this time, a chance to vent about the frustrations and the fears.

Clearly, sensitivity to how a patient is responding must be balanced with the level of urgency in taking any necessary action. For example, it may be appropriate for the therapist to act as a patient advocate by encouraging the patient to schedule a follow-up appointment with their healthcare provider to further discuss the diagnosis and formulate his/her questions. And even to help the patient formulate a list of questions to ask their healthcare provider. Scheduling a follow-up session with the patient to discuss and process what they learned in this second appointment can also be invaluable.

The Three Fs

Accepting that life is going to change is the first step toward coping with the emotional impact of the diagnosis and making decisions. Though newly diagnosed patients come to this realization differently and at different times, most patients fall within one of the fight/flight/freeze responses.
 

Fight Freeze Flight
Positive Thinking Isolation Empowerment
Rigidity Helplessness Emotional Coping Skills
    Rational Thinking

Flight: The Case of Dave

The best way to introduce the Flight response is through a case example of a newly-diagnosed patient I’ll call Dave. An active man without a history of health problems, his diagnosis of a heart condition took him totally by surprise. His physician presented him with what she thought was the best recommendation, which was a triple bypass, and then suggested that Dave go home and do some thinking before making a decision.

Dave later reported that the sense of shock continued not only that evening, but for a couple of days afterward. He couldn’t believe that he, of all people, was being told that he was in anything but top condition. And his heart? Not a chance. He told his wife only that his doctor was watching his heart, but that he was absolutely fine, which of course she was skeptical of but knew better than to push if Dave wasn’t ready to talk. Dave describes the next few days like this:

"”Once the numbness started to wear off, I kind of went into a panic mode. It was like I had this thing around my heart and I wanted it cut out as soon as possible.” I was afraid to think because I was afraid I might talk myself into doing nothing, or that I might put too much strain on my heart. I imagined my doctor as my savior. I wanted to put all of my faith and trust in her and have her direct my path. I was in such a rush, I asked her to call the cardiologist she had recommended to try and influence him to schedule me for surgery as soon as possible"

While Dave is placing all of his trust in the first physician he encounters, he is also running toward the treatment that feels most expedient. He is not considering the implications of the treatment, in terms of side effects, recovery, and ongoing lifestyle management. As a result, he may later discover that this is not a treatment that he was prepared to deal with, which has implications for ongoing compliance as well as dissatisfaction with his healthcare provider.

The flight reaction has other implications as well. Individuals in this state may—out of a sense of panic—run toward unproven alternative treatments with potentially alarming results. They may also be susceptible to the recommendations of healthcare providers with whom they feel comfortable with emotionally but who may not offer the best treatment option. For example, they may profess to “love” their practitioners, which can preclude them from obtaining a second opinion on the diagnosis, investigating treatment options, and at least checking into the credentials and track record of their physician. Patients in Flight reaction may also attach themselves to an unproven, non-medical treatment with potentially alarming consequences.

The flight reaction can also result in such strong emotions that patients are unable to access their logical mind. Excessive crying, expressions of anger, giving in to fearfulness—these responses signify that a patient is also in flight of a different sort—not toward the first available treatment or the most loved practitioner, but instead running away from their diagnosis.

Freeze: The Case of John

Not all patients “take flight” toward the first available treatment. Some don’t take flight at all. Instead, the initial shock gives way to sitting and staring into space, waiting for the nightmare to pass, or for someone, often a family member, to step in and take charge. This is understandable. After all, between the shock of the diagnosis, and their perception that they are unprepared to make the decisions that are suddenly thrust upon them, or that they have no hope, they are essentially immobilized.

When in freeze reaction, emotions appear to stop working, not because they are broken but because they are being tightly held in place. And while this might be an opportunity for the rational side to kick in and take charge of the situation, logic without emotion is not necessarily going to result in rational thinking, as evidenced by John.

"I just sat there when the doctor told me, and I guess I’m still just sitting still. I can hardly get out of the chair, to tell you the truth. I kind of decided to be philosophical about it. I don’t know much about this but I do know that statistically, the numbers are against me. I mean, what can I do when fate isn’t on my side"

John is using the defense that individuals in freeze reaction often adopt: refusing to react emotionally. Not getting actively involved in learning about the condition and its treatment. Unfortunately, this also means giving up.

Essentially, the freeze reaction is an extension of the original feeling of shock, but with some key differences. Shock is the mind’s way of shutting down the emotions, and allowing the brain to process the information, before reaction. Patients in freeze reaction aren’t consciously suppressing their emotions, but their emotions are nonetheless inaccessible to them. They may think they are being “rational” based on their view of the facts, but there are risks involved when the logical mind is operating without the emotions.

Patients in freeze reaction, because they are operating without their emotional side, may adopt an attitude of hopelessness and helplessness. By not allowing themselves to work through the initial emotions, like anger and fear, they essentially remain stuck. Often they refuse to discuss their condition any more than absolutely necessary with their healthcare professionals, and may avoid telling family members as long as possible. Whereas patients in flight reaction may completely give themselves over to their emotions at the expense of rational thinking, patients in freeze don’t acknowledge their emotions, which leads inevitably to avoidance isolation.

One characteristic common among patients in freeze reaction is an unwillingness to make decisions about their treatment. They rely on their physicians, possibly working with family members, to make these decisions for them. In essence, they decide not to decide.

Fight: The Case of Marie

Being open to emotions can result in an inner sense of optimism and hope. If this optimism is balanced with rational thinking, patients are in the best position to make treatment decisions, deal effectively with treatment and lifestyle changes, and otherwise cope with the changes and challenges that may arise as they face the future. These are the fighters.

Fight doesn’t necessarily imply aggression and, in fact, sometimes patients resist this word because of that association. “Being a fighter means being empowered in terms of understanding the diagnosis, the options for treatment, and what lifestyle adjustments need to be made in the near future and beyond.” Being empowered is about arming oneself with emotional coping skills as well as rational thinking.

Fighters acknowledge the feelings that arise as a result of hearing the diagnosis and continue to honor their own emotions. It would even be reasonable to say that dealing with the emotional aspects of a diagnosis opens the door to rational decision making. Fear may, realistically, never fade away. The anger and disappointment may flare up at times. But emotions like fear and anger, when they are acknowledged and experienced, may also give way to hope, optimism, and a renewed passion for life.

Marie said it this way:

"I sat and cried and asked 'why me?' for quite awhile, maybe a few days. And then I stood up and said, 'I am going to fight this beast. I’m not going to let it beat me down.' The next day I made a list of who I needed to talk to, where I needed to go for information, and what I needed to start planning for. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel overwhelmed sometimes, because I still do. But I’m also in active mode."

Marie didn’t hold back on her emotions but, instead, faced her disappointment and fear. She sat alone with her emotions and, in her case, had a good cry. She also discussed her emotional reactions with a member of the healthcare team, who was comfortable being a “listening ear.” Had she not taken the time to experience how she was feeling, she would have been forced to sit with a large block of emotion, and it would have essentially taken all of her mental energy to hold it down. By doing so, she was able to start asking questions and making decisions.

Patients in fight reaction are more prepared to take action with their condition. By working through their emotional reactions—feeling their feelings and expressing them to supportive listeners—they are not running from their feelings, nor are they so overwhelmed by them that they can’t think. The result is a sense of self-confidence that comes from being aware of, and open to, emotions. Fighters also have access to their rational minds. This doesn’t mean that they are in perfect balance every day, or that they don’t have bad days when nothing seems to go right, but they are on the whole able to search for, and process, information. They are more likely to ask questions and to evaluate alternatives. They take more control over their treatment decisions and the ongoing lifestyle adjustments that they need to make.

Their balance of emotions and logic results in an attitude of empowerment toward their healthcare and the individuals who deliver it. For some patients, the fight attitude comes naturally; they may be more temperamentally inclined towards this kind of response to adversity once they move beyond the initial shock. These individuals will sometimes present challenges to their healthcare team, because they tend to be much more active in their own treatment, and believe that the ultimate decisions regarding sources of information, treatment alternatives, and lifestyle adjustments, lies in their own hands. However, the healthcare team can work with patients experiencing freeze and flight reactions to create and enhance fighter skills.

Psychotherapy: Bridging the Gap That Healthcare Professionals Can’t Fill

Healthcare professionals are not expected to be psychotherapists or counselors, nor to deliver direct mental health services to their patients. On the contrary, attempting to counsel patients without the benefit of being a trained mental health professional can be harmful to the patient and risky for the untrained professional. But newly diagnosed patients often have a hard time processing the overwhelming information they are bombarded with by their healthcare providers, and this is where psychotherapy can play a vital role.

Often patients are so flooded with emotion when they first receive their diagnosis that they aren’t really listening to what they are being told; they might “hear” it, but not be able to make sense of it and, as a result, they may miss key pieces of information or misinterpret what they’ve heard. This can be frustrating and alarming for the healthcare professional, who may or may not have the patience or skill to help their patients through this initial phase. Psychotherapy can help the patient to cope with the fear and anxiety that may be preventing them from processing information about their diagnosis and their treatment options, and to evaluate the options from both rational and emotional perspectives.

This can also be a good time to involve family members in the therapy. They often need support as well in processing and understanding the diagnosis, figuring out how best to support the patient, and deciphering what their role will be throughout the treatment process. Both patients and their families and close friends may not yet have the words they need to discuss their feelings and reactions with each other, and therapists can play an important role in helping to facilitate communication between patients and their loved ones.

Newly-Diagnosed Patients in Psychotherapy

A new medical diagnosis brings with it the probability of change—in routine, in relationships, in self-image—and human beings are creatures of habit, not wired to embrace change. Uncertainty about the future and what challenges might soon be presented, fears about loss, including finances, relationships, favorite activities and one’s future dreams are all a part of what the newly diagnosed patient brings to therapy.

Some of the factors that influence the way an individual reacts to a medical diagnosis include:

  • Perceptions of the severity of the diagnosis—Patients often have minimal information about their condition when they first receive their diagnosis, or erroneous information, or a vague awareness of the condition but not enough of the facts to evaluate it in terms of the implications for their own lives. These perceptions —and misperceptions —may lead to an emotional reaction that is not consistent with reality. Alternatively, patients may be well versed in their condition and experience emotions that are realistic and consistent with its severity. Either way, perceptions have a direct influence on emotions.
  • Personal coping style—Some people grow up in families in which emotions are always on the surface, and family members are encouraged to express how they are feeling. In other families, emotions are not so acceptable, and are suppressed. Newly-diagnosed patients who don’t have a history of being comfortable with their own feelings will most likely have difficulty talking about, or expressing, how they feel.
  • Prior experience of illness—Newly-diagnosed patients who have had a past illness may experience some of the same feelings that they experienced in the past. Having already dealt with a medical diagnosis may have provided them with coping skills to deal with a new diagnosis; alternatively, the diagnosis can reignite fears and other feelings that they had hoped not to re-experience. Patients who have helped a friend or family member cope with a medical condition may react similarly.

The Unanswerable Question

Newly-diagnosed patients inevitably ask one question: “Why me?” This may be a medical question, as the patient tries to understand the medical reasons behind the diagnosis, though there is usually an undercurrent of self-punishment—“If only I’d eaten better” or “if only I didn’t smoke” this would never have happened. People may also feel guilty about asking this question, as it can seem to suggest that it would be more fair and right if it happened to someone else. And patients may also express acceptance, but nevertheless ponder the randomness of life.

The point for therapists is not to answer this question. For many patients, “Why me?” opens the floodgate to releasing their own emotions, because it is a way of articulating that basic question of fairness and the role of fate, core issues that patients grapple with as they begin to process their diagnosis and move toward acceptance and empowerment. Ultimately, “Why me? is an existential question, and as therapists, we can use it to delve more deeply into the meaning of life for our clients and, if appropriate, work with them to cultivate a deeper connection to their religious or spiritual communities and practices.

Facing Difficult Emotions

When I first met with a patient I’ll call Yolanda, who had been diagnosed with cancer, she said:

“All I could think about was how concerned my doctor was when she told me I had cancer. I had never seen this look on her face before, and I just kept thinking that if she was this concerned, I must be in big trouble. I felt like I was on the edge of a cliff and I needed to hang on to something but there was nothing to hang on to. And at any second I might go falling into the darkness.”

During the course of our counseling sessions together, I was able to help Yolanda identify the emotions that she was experiencing, especially those that she thought she “shouldn’t” be feeling (I always begin by kicking the positive-thinking police out of the room). I also supported her as she began to deal with her diagnosis on a day-to-day basis, including giving the news to her family, making the treatment decision, undergoing surgery and chemotherapy, and making lifestyle changes. Helping Yolanda recognize, accept, and cope with the emotions around her illness allowed her to move into an empowered fighter position.

Yolanda gave voice to her greatest fears about cancer. As we worked through the “why me?” question, I told her about similar experiences by other patients facing cancer to help normalize her reaction. It’s important for people to remember that they are not alone and that many have walked the path before them. I also encouraged her to arm herself with real facts by asking questions of her treatment team and information-gathering on her own, and at her own pace. Information is an antidote to fear.

As Yolanda faced her fears about her cancer diagnosis, I encouraged her to express other emotions as they arose. Allowing herself to be angry was an important step for her, as she was able to express her frustration at having to take a break from her active life to go through treatment. As she stated, “I want to scream at life and how unfair everything is!” During a later session, as she was beginning cancer treatment, she talked about attending a wellness lecture and leaving feeling ashamed that she “might have avoided this if I had taken better care of myself.” And during chemotherapy, she expressed sadness that she wasn’t able to “be the mother that my kids need me to be.” Yolanda needed the opportunity to express these emotions in a safe, non-judgmental environment so that she could continue to cope with her day-to-day life and responsibilities.

Challenging Harmful Beliefs

As patients react to the stress of their diagnosis, their fundamental beliefs about life are put to the test, many of which, from a Rational Emotive Behavior (REBT) perspective, may be irrational and therefore lead to reactions and emotions that are unproductive and self-destructive. I was able to gently help Yolanda to identify beliefs that resulted in, as she said, “beating up on myself” and “telling myself that I shouldn’t feel the way that I do.” Irrational beliefs common to newly-diagnosed patients include:

  • My life will not change unless I want it to.
  • I must be available to the people who need me at all times.
  • If I live a good life, bad things won’t happen to me.
  • If I don’t keep a positive attitude, other people will think I am a failure.
  • If I don’t maintain control of my emotions I will collapse.

“I can’t emphasize enough the importance of first and foremost being a supportive, listening ear in the true sense of Carl Rogers—non-judgmental, unconditional positive regard.” This is what patients need most when they first get diagnosed. Motivational interviewing techniques can also be helpful in assessing readiness and introducing alternative ways of coping.

As Yolanda was ready for me to move from the role of supporting and normalizing her emotional reactions to examining her beliefs and understanding the connection with her emotions, I used a more active approach to help her identify her triggers, reframe her irrational beliefs, challenge either/or thinking, recognize and replace negative self-talk with health-enhancing affirmations and use progressive relaxation techniques.

A Note About Grief

Newly-diagnosed patients often go through a grieving process, and this can be an essential step in coming to terms with their condition and moving forward with treatment and lifestyle adjustments. When they grieve, they are beginning the process of accepting that a change is occurring in their life. Regardless of the diagnosis, accepting that life is going to be different in some way, and that these changes are out of their hands, is an important step forward. For many newly-diagnosed patients, their diagnosis causes them to take a look at one or more of their basic beliefs about life and to reevaluate them. This may be the first time that they have looked at these beliefs and how they affect their actions and emotional reactions. During this process, assessing a patient’s spiritually, and encouraging them to seek spiritual guidance in whatever way is meaningful to them can be helpful in getting through the grieving process.

Sensitivity to the Influence of Culture and Gender

It is also important for healthcare professionals to be aware of the influence of culture and gender. Cultural background can influence how patients interact with the medical establishment, how they experience and express emotions, and their willingness to accept mental health intervention. Gender can present further complications in expressing emotions around illness as well as in getting informed. In Western culture, women tend traditionally to be more active medical consumers than are men.

Working with the Healthcare Team

The healthcare professionals that are working with newly-diagnosed patients can greatly benefit from the ability to understand and recognize how patients are reacting to their diagnosis, and psychotherapists can play an important role in consulting with them. Understanding whether a patient is having a flight, freeze, or fight response, for example, will guide healthcare professionals in gauging their readiness to receive information, so that it is presented in a manner in which patients will most likely be receptive. Those in flight reaction may need some additional emotional support while those in freeze reaction may need some coaching in interpreting what they read and hear with a sense of optimism. Fighters may ask a lot of questions for which the team needs to be prepared. And going forward with treatment and recovery, patients who don’t become fighters may continuously erect barriers to compliance and life management.

I often work directly with physicians and, depending on the wishes and permission of the patient, will contact the healthcare team to share information and, as needed, to advocate for my patient. Where possible, maintaining open communications with healthcare providers, and offering to support them during especially difficult times during and after treatment, can be invaluable to the patient. Many healthcare providers also recognize the emotional component as key to enhancing recovery and ongoing compliance and are happy for the support.

Offering the healthcare team an understanding the patient’s particular reaction style can help them tailor their approach in ways that leverage the patient’s strengths. We can specifically give the team advice about how best to:

  • Present information on the condition and its treatment
  • Coach patients through the treatment process
  • Make recommendations on lifestyle management
  • Encourage patients to seek support with activities of daily living
  • Monitor ongoing compliance

Preparing for the Road Ahead

Finally, I always tell my clients: You are not a diagnosis. Your diagnosis is only part of who you are. Remind yourself every day that you are a fascinating, multi-dimensional creature with a past, a present, and a future that belongs to you and to you alone. Embrace life and your potential to live your life, with all of its triumphs, set-backs, surprises, and detours. Now, let’s get prepared for the road ahead!

Listening as Meditation

In 1975, Herbert Benson of Harvard University wrote that to achieve a “relaxation response” you only need four ingredients. These included (a) a quiet place, (b) a comfortable position, (c) a mental device, and (d) a passive attitude. Benson’s relaxation response was, of course, roughly equivalent to the meditative mental state. His work presaged the mindfulness movement in psychotherapy. He identified a psychological place of exploration, discovery, and acceptance. His research linked the relaxation response to a variety of physiological and psychological benefits.

Carl Rogers and his daughter Natalie have often lamented that modern American therapists simply don’t understand person-centered counseling. As I watch students and professional therapists all-too-often engaging in premature problem-solving with clients, it’s easy to agree with Carl and Natalie. No one values listening much; it’s too slow and plodding for our caffeinated culture. Therapists wish to be helpful. Clients wish for solutions. And together they conspire to avoid whatever might lurk beneath the surface. At my present institution we even have a one-session group counseling experience called, “Feel Better Fast.” Perhaps what’s most amazing is that these explicit efforts to embrace and engage in the quick-fix are sometimes effective. This may be nothing more than a testimonial to the power of expectation and placebo.

But it’s equally likely that the help that happens comes primarily from two valid sources: First, clients may perceive their therapists as genuine and sincere. This is perhaps a small measure of Rogers’s person-centered congruence communicated through a fog of directive or solution-focused problem-solving. Second, some clients show up for therapy ready to learn. This is an example of Prochaska’s readiness to change—a pleasant situation wherein whatever stray skill that happens to graze the client’s psyche may be adopted, adapted, and applied, with some success, to the client’s particular life or problem. Obviously there are some good skills out there (including mindfulness meditation) and, as Otto Fenichel might have said—referring to psychoanalytic interpretations—timing is nearly everything.

Instead of indiscriminately engaging in procedures or firing off solutions, I wish that students and young professionals could step back and experience listening as meditation. I wish they could follow Benson’s advice and get comfortable, breathe deeply, and let their clients’ words into a quiet space. And while continuing to breathe, I wish for them to explore, discover, and accept what their clients are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.

Sometimes, when listening to therapy recordings with students I ask questions like:

  • Do you hear a value rising up in your client’s voice? Just listen and accept it and reflect it back.
  • Do you sense that your client is expressing perhaps a taste of bitterness mixed with unhappiness? If so, help your client hear and understand her or his own emotional state.
  • I wonder if you could tune into the call of the psychodynamic here; let the repeating interpersonal relationship patterns become clear; and then, collaboratively explore and discover with the client the nature, cost, and alternatives to these patterns, keeping your mutual and evidence-based goals in mind.
  • Do you notice in your client’s words the scent of the somatic or the spiritual? That’s okay, just notice it and then try to be the mirror that enables your client to see it right along with you.
Lately, the main message I’ve been trying to give my students, my supervisees, and myself is to integrate Benson’s and Rogers’s perspectives and use listening as meditation. The point is to let what the client says become the central focal point (Benson’s mental device). This is then followed with mindful acceptance and empathy, leading to a collaborative and interactive search for meaning or solutions or insight or behavioral prescriptions or cognitive reframing. And it ends with my conclusion that one of the coolest things about listening as meditation is that you can do it using virtually any theoretical perspective because excellence in the art of listening is the foundation that virtually all excellent therapists share.

John Sommers-Flanagan on Clinical Interviewing and the Highly Unmotivated Client

When In Doubt, Act Like Carl Rogers

Victor Yalom: You and your wife, Rita Sommers-Flanagan, are well known in the field for your work in Clinical Interviewing, and we are delighted to be releasing your video on this topic concurrently with this interview, but before we get into that, I know you’ve also done work with mandated or otherwise unlikely and unwilling clients. Much that’s written about therapy implicitly assumes that the client is there willingly, but in many settings, clients are overtly coerced into coming by courts or institutions, or they’re strongly nudged into treatment by their parents or spouses. How do you work with these clients?
John Sommers-Flanagan, PhD: A lot of my thinking in this area sprang from the work I did in private practice, primarily with challenging teenagers. As you can imagine, many of them did not want to be in the room with me, so the challenge was, “How do I engage this person?”

I have a vivid memory of a young man who spent 30 minutes just saying, “fuck you” to me. I remember trying to go through every strategy I could think of. But probably the best of all was just to try to be like Carl Rogers and listen in an accepting way to that particular message over and over again.
VY: Did you literally reflect it back to him like Carl did, verbatim?
JSF: Well, Carl had a case known as, “The Silent Young Man,” where he’s treating this young man who doesn’t want to speak at all, and I think I was trying to channel him in that situation. So I started off by saying things like, “Well, it sounds like all of a sudden you’re pretty angry with me.” And all I got was, “Fuck You.” Then I was saying things like, “It’s clear that there was something I did or said that offended you and I’m not sure what it was.” Then I did a little self-disclosure. After about 15 or 20 minutes, he was still just saying, “fuck you,” but he started singing it to me as 15-year olds might be inclined to do. That went on for 10 minutes and I’m doing my Carl Rogers impersonation, “Well, you sound like you’re not happy, but even though you’re still swearing at me, you’re not angry any more. Now you’re happy and singing it to me.”
What happened next was really interesting. Keep in mind this was not a first session, it was a sixth, maybe seventh session. When he came in the next week, he sat down in the same chair and looked at me. I was anticipating more anger and more resistance, but the first words that he said were, “I’m just wondering, how would you feel if you were to adopt me?” Which was kind of a shocking change, and actually much more difficult than, “fuck you.”
VY: What did you say?
JSF: Well, he said it in this kind of off-handed way, and I just decided at that moment in time that I should try to be genuine and I responded with some disclosure about feeling a little nervous because this was a young man who had a pretty significant history of violence. I said, “I think I would feel pretty nervous about some of the ways that you’ve been with people.” And that launched us into a different discussion.
For me, it sort of captured how important it is to be, as Marsha Linehan might say, “radically accepting of what the client brings into the room.” Or as Rogers would say, “You just kind of work with what you’re getting.” It seemed to help us go deeper and it facilitated exploration and more engagement.

“You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist”

VY: So one thing I get from this nice story is the underlying message of really hanging in there with a client, even in an extreme case where they’re coming in and swearing at you perhaps for the whole session or half a session. Really being there and meeting them head on, and being as genuine as you can.
JSF: Absolutely. A more common example is one that I get all the time with some of the difficult young adults I work with now. A 20-year old very recently came into therapy and I said something like, “Welcome to therapy, how can I help you?” And he says, “You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist.”
This again captures a lot of the pushing and testing that happens with reluctant clients. I said, “Well, thank you very much for telling me that. I would never want to say anything that would lead you to punch me, so, how about if we decide that if I say anything that makes you want to punch me, you just tell me and I’ll not to say it anymore?”And the kid sat back and said, “Wow. Okay. That’s alright with me.”

VY: How do you conceptualize uncooperative or unwilling clients?
JSF: Well, there are few different dimensions. The first is how they’re referred. They’re often referred by a probation officer or principal, or the parents bring in someone or someone is abusing substances and has been given an ultimatum, or a spouse insists on some kind of counseling and so they come sort of unwillingly into the room.
Then there is the way that their resistance manifests in the room. Sometimes it manifests in silence. “I’m not going to talk to you and you can’t make me.” My standard response to that is what I think people have referred to as a concession where I say, “You are absolutely right. I cannot make you talk about anything in here. I especially can’t make you talk about anything you don’t want to talk about.” With teenagers, I will say that and then I’ll pause and I’ll say, “Well what do you want to talk about?” It’s like they need to posture by saying that they won’t talk, and when I concede that they’re right, that they do have control over themselves, then they tend to respond.
Other times, as I’ve just talked about, resistance is much more aggressive. I remember an older man who said, “We might get in a fight in this meeting.” That’s a much more aggressive kind of resisting the initial contact.
And, lastly, there are some people who resist through externalizing, as in, “the problem is with my school,” or “It’s with my spouse,” “it’s with work,” “it’s with everyone but me.” The challenge then is to listen empathically without getting too frustrated, because if I get frustrated and accuse the person of externalizing, oftentimes it just makes them more defensive. Those are three different categories I can think of off the top of my head: the very silent client, the very aggressive, and the very externalizing client who has a lot of trouble taking any initial responsibility for his or her problems.
VY: So aside from acceptance, empathy, and trying to really be there authentically, what are some other key principals for the therapists working with these kinds of clients?
JSF: I don’t know if you remember Mary Cover Jones, who did some of the early work with John Watson on helping young children desensitize their fears, but she said, “We have two means through which we can help decondition people. One is counter conditioning, where you have some kind of positive stimulus that you pair with the anxiety-provoking stimulus. And the other one is through participant modeling.” She wrote about that in 1924, and it was pretty amazing stuff at the time.
So I have started to reconceptualize people who are resistant to therapy as people who are anxious about the situation. I think, “How do I produce an environment that is going to counter-condition anxiety? What’s in my environment that might help people feel more comfortable and less anxious?” It’s another principal I’m often thinking of in a clinical situation.
VY: I can’t help but note that you’re pleasantly eclectic. You’re combining the epitome of humanism, the person-centered approach of Carl Rogers, with hardcore behaviorism.
JSF: I don’t consider myself a behaviorist, but I also think that if we don’t understand behavioral principals of reinforcement and classical conditioning, we can inadvertently do all the wrong things.
Foundationally, I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel.
I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel. Mary Cover Jones used cookies with children, and when I work with teenagers, I absolutely use food. I will have some food, fruit snacks or something nutritional in the room that I can offer, and in some ways I’m thinking absolutely behaviorally at that point. And I’m also thinking relationally—it’s about having a supportive, mutually collaborative relationship. We’re working together.
VY: Can you say a little more what you mean by examples of counter-conditioning anxiety?
JSF: Well, I was just looking through Skype into your space and you have some fabulous artwork. And I think it’s important to have a room that has comforting, pleasant artwork and other kinds of symbols that will help put people at ease. And if you’re working with LGBTQ people, there should be some kind of symbolic communication that you are welcoming those people into your office.
Same thing here in Montana. We work a lot with the Native American population, and it’s really important to have some sensitivity and representation in our office of that sensitivity.
When working with younger clients, the same thing applies. I was supervising a young man who had a 16-year-old boy client who said, “I will never speak to you about anything important in my life, period.” We knew from his referral info that he had been the person to discover his father had hanged himself, so he had some terrible, complex, traumatic grief.
My supervisee said, “What am I going to do?” And I said, “Take the checkers. Take backgammon. Take some games. Take some clay. Take some things into the room. And don’t force him to talk. Just be with him. Play.”
They played for three sessions, just played backgammon. And at the end of the third session, the client looked at the counselor and said, “Well, should we keep seeing each other? Because you said I only needed to come three times.”
And the counselor said, “Yeah, I think we should keep going.”
And the client said, “Well, okay then,” and he pushed the backgammon set aside and starting talking. To me it seemed like a great example of counter-conditioning. They used playing games as the stimulus that was pleasant and non-threatening.
VY: And participant modeling?
JSF: That’s really important, although obviously you can’t really have other people in the room modeling, so the therapist is the model, and is modeling comfort in all things. Comfort when the client says, “I’m feeling suicidal.” Comfort when the client says, “I want to punch you in the nose.” The response is to appreciate those disclosures, instead of being frightened by them. Being frightened by the client’s disclosures is going to feed the anxiety, instead of counter-condition it or instead of modeling, “We can handle this. We can handle this together. It’s best if we do talk about all these things, even the disturbing things that you bring into the room.”
VY: How do you help students, beginning therapists, achieve that? And, how do you balance that portrayal of comfort with authenticity when, in fact, beginning therapists may not feel at all comfortable?
JSF: That’s a great question, and it’s one of the challenges because you want the therapist to be genuine, and yet at the same time you want them to be comfortable. And often those two things are a little bit mutually exclusive.
But I think first of all, information helps. It’s helpful to our trainees and interns and young therapists to really understand and believe that, for example, suicidal ideation is not deviant. It’s not pathology. It’s an expression of distress, and if people don’t tell you about their suicidal ideation, then they are keeping it inside, and they’re not sharing their personal private experience of distress.

I try to do a lot of education around that, whether it’s suicidal or homicidal ideation or trauma or whatever it is that clients might talk about. It’s really important for young therapists to know if they don’t talk about it, we’ll never have a chance to help them with those legitimate, real thoughts and experiences that they’re having.

And the other big piece is practice, practice, practice.

VY: How do you practice these things?
JSF: To give an example, a lot our students initially do suicide assessment interviews, and they’ll say to their role-play client, “Have you thought about hurting yourself?” I’ll interrupt and say, “Okay, now use the word ‘suicide.’” Now say, “Have you thought about killing yourself?” I’m wanting them to get comfortable with the words and to practice using those words so that they aren’t so terribly frightening.
I remember supervising a new student who was conducting an initial assessment, and about half-way through the 30-minute interview, his client says, “I used to have a terrible addiction problem, and one of the things that really has helped me with my recovery is cycling. I’m an avid cycler and it’s really helped me with my drug and alcohol problems.”
At which point, he freezes in panic and says, “So what kind of bike do you have?”
I stopped the tape and said, “Hey, what was going on?” He says, “I was scared, I didn’t want to open things up.”
I said, “Well she did. She opened it up. She shared with you that she had an addiction problem, that she was in recovery, and that she had a method that really is helpful to her. So it would be perfectly natural for you to then use your good active listening skills and ask an open question or do a paraphrase or reflection of feeling, and to stay focused on the target, which was addiction recovery coping, instead of asking what kind of bike she had.”
So it’s a combination of offering encouragement, practice, and feedback.
VY: In addition to behavioral principles and humanist principles, what other theories or principles do you draw from?
JSF: Well, in the psychodynamic realm, I’m thinking of Edward Borden’s work on the working alliance and his effort to generalize it from the psychoanalytic frame to other frames. And the emotional bond between therapist and client, which Anna Freud wrote about initially. We really try to facilitate that.
We also engage in collaborative work toward goal consensus between therapist and client, and it could be that we agree that the therapeutic task involves free association and interpretation and working through. Or it could be a therapeutic task that involves exposure and a real behavior modification approach.

Clinical Interviewing

VY: You and your wife Rita Sommers-Flanagan have written a comprehensive and widely-used textbook entitled, Clinical Interviewing, about the initial stage of therapy, where you’ve examined and broken down in great detail all the aspects that those first few sessions. Can you explain what you mean by “clinical interviewing?”
JSF: It’s a term that originally referred to the initial psychiatric interview, which has a lot of assessment in it. So it refers to that initial contact. But as we have grown, we’ve come to see it as not just an initial contact. In some ways, every contact is a clinical interview in that every contact involves this sort of two-headed goal of assessment and helping. And then the third component is the working alliance, or the therapeutic relationship.
As we know, assessments in a clinical interview produce more valid data if we have a good working or therapeutic relationship. The evidence is very clear that therapy outcomes are more positive if we have a positive emotional bond, and we’re working collaboratively on goals and tasks. So I see the therapeutic relationship as central to the assessment and the helping dimension of the clinical interview.
VY: It’s the beginning phase of therapy.
JSF: Yes.
VY: In reading your text and also in viewing the video we’re releasing conjointly with this interview, you really emphasize the importance of the therapeutic relationship or rapport-building as an integral part of that initial contact.
JSF: Right. Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
VY: Because you’re not going to get much information or accurate information if they don’t feel like you’re on their side?
JSF: Absolutely. It’s about establishing trust and helping people to be open. I’m very familiar with your father’s work, and in The Gift of Therapy, he writes, “In recent and initial interviews, this inquiry into the typical day allowed me to learn of activities I might not otherwise have known for months.
Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
A few hours a day of computer solitaire, three hours a night in Internet sex chat rooms under a different identity, massive procrastination at work, ensuing shame. A daily schedule so demanding that I was exhausted listening to it.”
And he goes on and on about these disclosures that he was able to get by asking a simple question, “Tell me about your usual day.” To me, that’s a great example of how rich the assessment data can be with a simple question, if you have a positive rapport and therapeutic relationship.
VY: So it seems like a fundamental balancing act that you’re always dealing with is how do you balance getting sufficient information—particularly if you work for an agency where forms are a part of the process—while establishing sufficient rapport. Because if they don’t come back for a second session, the treatment is surely a failure.
JSF: Right, how do we balance the information-gathering task that we might have for our agency with the relationship task? And how do we do that with culturally diverse clients?
One of the things we try to do in the Clinical Interviewing book is to go into detail—with an outline and structure—of different kinds of initial clinical interviews, including the intake and the mental status exam, suicide assessment, diagnostic interviewing, and other kinds of interviews, yet emphasizing throughout the importance of the relationship.
So if I have a checklist that my clinic is requiring me to fill out, I would say to the client, “This part of our task today. I am supposed to ask these questions and record your answers, but I also want to hear from you in your own words things that you’re experiencing. So I’ll try to balance that with you.” And I’ll actually show them the questionnaire or the checklist.
VY: So be transparent.
JSF: Be transparent. Absolutely.

Multicultural Competence and Moving Beyond Your Comfort Zone

VY: You mentioned different cultures. What are some particular considerations that come to mind about that?
JSF: Well, some of the principals that come to mind for me involve respect for the native culture here in Montana and throughout the U.S. I think respect is a core part of beginning any relationship. And I think respect involves understanding and being able to pronounce the names of various tribes, asking very gently and respectfully about tribal affiliation here in Montana. I will sometimes say that I know some people from, say, the Crow tribe who have been students in our program. Even if they don’t know the particular students, it can be helpful to hear that I have had contact with somebody who’s got the same tribal affiliation as them.
Cultural competence also means that we take the time to read and study about working with Latino or Latina clients. It also involves using what Stanley Sue referred to as “dynamic sizing” and “scientific mindedness,” where we try to figure out, “Does this cultural generality apply to the specific cultural being in my office?” That’s a difficult but very important thing to determine.
VY: Just a couple weeks ago I had the privilege of interviewing Stanley Sue’s brother, Derald Wing Sue, on multi-cultural issues. One of the things he emphasized was really getting outside of your comfort zone and getting to know these other cultures on a more than superficial level.
JSF: Another thing he really emphasizes is the question that can’t help but be in the back of the mind of many minority clients: “Is this therapist the kind of person who will oppress me in ways that other people in the dominant culture have oppressed me and my family, my tribe, or my culture?”
One of the remedies that he and others have talked about is for therapists to be more transparent, and use a little more self-disclosure. Because without doing that, there’s just no good evidence that we’re not the oppressor or the “downpressor” as some Jamaicans would say.
So diving into the culture, getting to know it on more than a surface level, and then being able to use some of the principals that Stanley and Derald Wing Sue have articulated well is essential. It makes things much more complicated and much more rewarding.

Intake Essentials

VY: There are many models of how that initial client contact occurs—from a brief telephone intake to, in certain settings like substance abuse or mental health treatment centers, having a designated intake worker who passes on the client to interns or therapists. Do you have a general recommendation or sense of what the best practices are for the initial intake?
JSF: Well, in agencies where there is a handoff from an intake worker to other therapists, it can be difficult to maintain the therapeutic connection. In that case the initial session becomes much more about clinical assessment than initiating therapy.
Constance Fischer and Stephen Finn have written about these kinds of therapeutic assessments since at least the late 1970’s, and they suggest complete transparency through the process. “Here’s how things work in this agency.
This will be my only session with you. I would like to work longer with you, but what I’m going to be thinking about during our time together is who might be the best match for you for ongoing counseling or psychotherapy.”
Without that transparency we run the risk of alienating the client—leaving them feeling like, “Oh, man, I have to go through all this again with another person next week?”
VY: It’s hard enough for people to get into treatment in the first place. As I often say to clients, “People are not usually waiting in line to get the therapy.” It often takes people years.
JSF: Right, and when we put another hurdle there it makes it even more difficult. So it’s important to explain the hurdles and let them know how best to get over the next hurdle.
VY: Is your general sense that it’s better not to have a separate person doing the intake if possible?
JSF: I think it’s better to have the same person do the intake and then continue with therapy. There are, of course, exceptions to that. If you have someone who is not well-trained in substance abuse therapy, and then it becomes clear in the first intake session that this person has an active substance abuse problem, transferring the person to a therapist or counselor who has that experience would be a better fit.
And you can just explain that to the client, although oftentimes the client will still say, “Oh, but I’d rather work with you.” But as long as you have a good rationale, you can make that transition relatively easily. So, yes, it’s best to have the same person do the intake and then continue with the therapy, except in situations where there’s a clear rationale to do otherwise.

Treatment Planning

VY: What are your thoughts about treatment planning? There’s a lot of emphasis on that in many agencies. Do you think that’s something that actually can be done with any specificity? So often someone comes in thinking they’re here to work on X, and six weeks later, you’re really working more on Y. So at times I wonder who the treatment planning process is really serving. Is it really serving the client, or is it serving some agency needs, some funding needs, or the anxiety of the therapist?
JSF: I remember an old supervisor saying to a group of us, “We’re not technicians. We can’t really lay out a protocol for exactly how to act with every client. Every client’s unique, so we need to go deeper than that. We’re professionals, and we bring both art and science into the room.”
I think it’s important to blend the two.
I’m not a big fan of cookie cutter treatment plans. But I am a fan of looking at the plan, talking with the client about what our plan is, and being somewhat explicit and collaborative in that process. I see it as a kind of dialectic—it’s a little bit cookie cutter in that it doesn’t bring in much of the individuality of the client but it does have some important information for us. From there we can dive into the unique qualities of the client and their experiences.
As an example, let’s just say you have a client who’s impulsive. We know that there are certain kinds of treatments that we might use with someone who is diagnosed with ADHD who is impulsive, where those impulsive behaviors are getting him or her in trouble. It’s good to know about CBT and other kinds of therapies that might help with impulsivity. But it’s also really important to get into the mind and, in some sense, the body of that individual client to understand what’s going on with that person.
But knowing that there are probably triggers that increase and decrease impulsivity is something you’d want to work on with a CBT treatment plan. It can help focus the questioning, even if you’re working from an existential perspective.

“Evidence-Based” Treatment

VY: As you’re a professor at the University of Montana, and actively involved in training students, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about the major trend towards “evidence-based” treatment? There are a lot of leading figures in the field who are critiquing this trend. John Norcross talks about evidence-based relationships, since research actually shows that most of the positive outcomes in therapy are based on the relationships and not on this or that technique or procedure. Are you pressured by accrediting agencies to teach evidence-based treatments? What have your experiences been in this regard?
JSF: Yes, there is a lot of pressure to incorporate “evidence-based,” or “empirically-supported treatments.” When you look at Norcross’ work, you have to shake your head and wonder why we focus so much on technical procedures and evidence-based treatments. The science just really isn’t there. There are studies done that show X or Y treatment is effective and, therefore, it becomes evidence-based. And yet there’s a mountain of evidence saying otherwise, that it’s not the specific protocols that make a positive treatment outcome.
There are these voices in the wilderness, like Norcross, crying out about this, but there’s still this inexorable trend towards requiring these evidence-based treatments in training students and in various government agencies, for example.
The cynical side of me would say it’s about trying to get our share of the healthcare dollars. Shaping ourselves to be in the medical model, since there are empirically-supported medical treatments. Of course, there is some real scientific evidence that we should be aware of when working with our clients. We should be, because we’re professionals in this area. Like Norcross writes about, there are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures. There are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures.
But we shouldn’t ignore all technical procedures because, even Carl Rogers would say, “If the technique arises spontaneously out of a particular place where you are in the counseling process, then it may be appropriate.”
VY: In wrapping up, any advice you would give for students or early career therapists just starting out?
JSF: I think my biggest advice these days is to focus on balance: The balance between the science and the art, the balance between the relationship and assessment and diagnosis. We need some diagnostic information in many real world situations, but we should not try to get that at the risk of damaging the therapeutic relationship. The impulse is for people to go one direction or the other. I was at a workshop one time where a woman referred to people as science “fundamentalists,” which I thought was a very apt description of some people. They have this allegiance to the paradigm of modernist science, and that’s the only way truth is known.
Then there are people who are much more touchy-feely and go with the flow. My general advice would be, if you’re more of a touchy-feely person, you really still need to learn the science. You still need to read the clinical interviewing text and understand the content that is our professional foundation. And if you’re more inclined toward scientific fundamentalism, you need to get out of that box and try to learn from the other side of the dialectic, which is the relational, emotional side of things that happen in the therapy office.

Advice for the Late-Career Therapist

VY: So let’s use mid- or later-career therapists as an example. By that time in their careers, many have migrated to private practice and have gotten very comfortable in their own ways of being with clients. In many ways that’s a good thing—it’s part of the career progression to take everything you’ve learned along the way and integrate that into who you are as a person. But one drawback I see is the possibility of just jumping into therapy with any client who walks in your office—assuming they’re a good fit for you—without maybe doing a proper assessment. And then they find out six months down the road that the client has a drinking issue that they hadn’t disclosed before. Any advice for these later-career therapists?
JSF: Yes. I’m not in full-time private practice right now but I have friends who see 35 people a week, and are doing the kind of thing you’re talking about.
It’s so easy for us to get into a little niche where we do it our way, and we’re no longer open to other ways of thinking. I’d say it’s really important to keep stretching yourself, to keep reading, to keep going to professional workshops, because we can do things wrong for years and think that we’re actually being successful.
Scott Miller is emphasizing it now more than anyone else–but it’s incredibly important to get systematic feedback from our clients so that we can get a sense whether we’re on the right track with each individual client.
Even though we sometimes can convince ourselves that we’re incredibly intuitive and we can, therefore, launch into therapy immediately, there is some research that suggests that negative outcomes correlate with inadequate assessment. So we do need to step back and do a little formal assessment here and there, even though, as experienced practitioners, we might think, “I know what to do here. This is not a problem.”
Instead, step back and to say, “Let’s do a little bit of assessment here so we can work together to make sure that we’re on the right track.” In other words, mid-therapy adjustments and assessments to make sure that we are helping our clients as effectively as possible.
VY: A final question: What’s your growing edge right now as a teacher and practitioner?
JSF: I have several growing edges. One growing edge that’s pretty constant for me is working toward greater cultural sensitivity, and being able to know more deeply about people who come from diverse minority kinds of backgrounds.
Another growing edge for me is the whole idea of mindfulness and how to incorporate that into some of the more traditional ways that I was taught to do psychotherapy.
I think the other growing edge for me is kind of a growing foundation. The person-centered principals for me have always been foundational and I find myself sometimes really wanting to go back to those. I can see myself in future months or years going to some trainings to get even better at the things that I think are my basic foundational skills.
VY: I often have the opportunity to review some old videos that we’ve acquired or produced and just recently watched the first video produced with James Bugental, a human-centered existential therapist. I’ve probably seen that video 20 times and I still appreciate it, perhaps on an even deeper level.Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

JSF: Thank you very much, Victor. I very much appreciate your work and the fact that you have dedicated a lot of your life to making the work of other great therapists accessible to all of us.

Maria Gonzalez-Blue on Person-Centered Expressive Arts Therapy

Formula for Compassion

Victor Yalom: Maria, as I understand it you’re a person-centered expressive arts therapist. A good place to begin would be to ask you, what is person-centered expressive arts therapy?
Maria Gonzalez-Blue: I'll start with what the person-centered approach is, because that's the foundation. Expressive arts then becomes a tool that's been integrated into the person-centered approach, which was, of course, defined by Carl Rogers. The person-centered approach is based on the humanistic principle that, within every organism, there is an innate movement that will always move that organism towards it greatest potential, if it's given a nurturing environment where that potential can grow. The nurturing environment was defined by Carl Rogers as one that includes the elements of empathy, congruence, and unconditional positive regard.
VY: Carl Rogers is certainly well known by our readers and he's had an enduring influence in our field and in many fields to this day. We’ve just been doing some work with Sue Johnson in emotionally focused therapy, and she gives a lot of credit to Carl Rogers. We’ve also just been filming some videos on motivational interviewing, which also has strong Rogerian roots. What, for you, are the essential components of Rogers’s person-centered approach that you hold near and dear to your heart as you teach and as you work with clients?
MG: I see his emphasis on empathy and unconditional positive regard as a formula for compassion. It requires therapists to consider those things any time they sit before clients, students, or other individuals. If I enter a session knowing that I want to bring these elements in, it forces me to bring them home to myself, as well. I have found that it becomes a way of life and makes you a better person, because you're always conscious of when you're not being empathic or when you're being judgmental.

In my work, what I've seen is that when you listen to someone truly carefully, instead of listening to your own ideas and expectations—when you set all judgments aside, incredible things happen. People contact information that's long been repressed. It seems a simple thing, but I find it has a profound effect on an individual to be listened to with such caring. 

The Intention of Tolerance

VY: Coinciding with the publication of this interview, we’re releasing on video an interview that Carl Rogers did in the ’80s. When discussing these concepts, he clarified his conception of unconditional positive regard. He said something along the lines of, “It’s not that we can always achieve unconditional positive regard, but it’s fortunate when we can have that with our clients.”
MG: Right. And that's what I tell my students all the time: what's important is to hold that intention. Certainly we're human beings—we're judgmental. If we can simply go into an environment with that intention, that is far reaching.
VY: I think that’s an important clarification, because otherwise, people can hear that and think it’s Pollyannaish. It’s an impossible ideal to attain. As you say, we’re human. We have our judgments. We have different feelings for our clients and for different people in our lives.
MG: We have to start with tolerance. I think this is why I am so dedicated to this process, because I feel we need this so much in the world. You can at least start with tolerance.
I don't think it's necessary to accept or condone everything and everyone you meet in a session. But you can keep in mind that somewhere in that organism, there is a desire towards growth.
I don't think it's necessary to accept or condone everything and everyone you meet in a session. But if you can keep in mind that somewhere in that organism, there is a desire towards growth, then that's the part that we as person-centered therapists hold: that seed in there that wants to move towards wholeness. Accepting that that is there requires trust and faith on the part of the therapist. And if the therapist can hold trust and faith, then that can affect how clients feel about themselves. If you as a therapist aren't judging them, then maybe their own self-judgments can start falling away.

Not Just Parroting Back: Reflecting as Witnessing

VY: Another one of the core techniques of this person-centered approach that I think has had a vast influence but also been misunderstood is this idea of reflection—repeating back what the client says. Some people have made fun of this as parroting or being too mechanical. What are your thoughts on that?
MG: That mirroring back of language, for people who haven’t really experienced it or been part of it, is often seen as mocking the individual. But that’s really not the case. Reflecting back the language that a client is using can also be useful, but we don’t always use the same exact words. Often, as clients are rattling off issues, problems, and feelings, they’ll say something that they’ve never said before; in their sharing, they’re coming to insights, they’re making connections without knowing they’re making connections. If you, as a therapist, can reflect back what you’re hearing, then those connections that are being made come to consciousness. Clients are speaking from a kind of flow of consciousness, and
I like to see myself as a mirror that’s reflecting back the wholeness that I see in them.
I like to see myself as a mirror that’s reflecting back the wholeness that I see in them. So that reflection is really important.

What’s also important is that you want to understand. Part of being empathic in Carl Rogers’s process is to see clients’ experience from their own worldviews. If you can really hold that idea that you want to understand, it’s also a way of saying, “Is this what I’m hearing you say?” And that gives them a chance to say, “No, that’s not it.” But, if they realize that that’s not it, then that gives them a frame of reference of what might it be. It’s a stepping stone.
VY: Right; as clients talk, they'll say things they didn't even know existed inside them. And of course, that's always the goal in any kind of therapy—that people will discover new things about themselves. If they're repeating things that they already know, then not much new is happening.
MG: Exactly. It’s like the therapist is walking through the woods side by side with the client, discovering things together. There’s something about that witnessing that can ground those new discoveries in a way that people can’t really do on their own.
VY: That’s a nice image. I’ve seen videos of Carl work and, of course, many other master therapists from different orientations. And what comes through is not his technique or the words he utters. Instead, you get a such strong sense of him really being with clients, listening deeply, committed to hearing and understanding them. I think it’s the intention. It’s the spirit of it, rather than the words that come out, that really is profound.
MG: And for many people, this has never happened. Even your best friends, and particularly family members, have all kinds of biases. They know you as this certain person. Sometimes your best friends want to help you, so they give you advice that may have worked for them, but may not work for you. But when you want to hear your clients, when you want to really see their worldviews and understand them, something shifts.

The Blank Page: Exploring the Unknown with Art

VY: Tell me about the expressive art component and how that is integrated into the person-centered approach.
MG: We just talked about a client discovering buried material, stepping into unknown material that strikes a surface, which is a good segue. Often, clients who enter therapy are approaching unknown territory. Either they’ve left a job or a relationship, or their life doesn’t feel right anymore, so they know what’s not working, but they don’t know what’s ahead.

The blank page, whether it’s in visual art or movement, is a great way to enter this unknown material. Art is really the language of the unconscious; it allows symbols to come forth. People make discoveries of potential and understanding, which become new resources to enter this unknown material. I believe that there’s a time and place for everything, so I’m not critical of any therapies. But talk therapy has its limits; art does not. It can be limitless. It can also be contained.
VY: I should add at this point that person-centered expressive arts therapy was developed by Natalie Rogers, Carl's daughter, who's a psychologist and psychotherapist in her own right, as well as an artist. And I know you've worked and trained with her professionally over many decades.
MG: Yes, we've worked substantially together, we've taught together, and we've played together. And what Natalie really brought in to weave those two things together was what she came to call the "Creative Connection." It's actually an intermodal process where we work with different modalities in sequence. A person might be exploring an issue through a visual arts piece. We don't diagnose or interpret art; instead, we ask the artist to explain what came through as a feeling, what is in the art that he or she wants to discuss.
The art doesn't have to be analyzed or intepreted. It's an image that has its own language.
The art doesn't have to be analyzed or intepreted. It's an image that has its own language. So the work is processed through listening, really respecting what the artist has to say about it. If the client wants reflections that a therapist might have, I might add something that I sense in the art without trying to analyze it—maybe noting the energy or the color, the person's body language in the making of it. I like to observe body language; sometimes you can tell energy is moving through.
VY: When you say artist, of course, you’re just referring to a client who’s engaged in the expressive arts process.
MG: The person who made the art.
VY: Yes. I don’t want to our readers to think that only artists can be involved in expressive art therapy.
MG:
We are all artists of our own lives.
We are all artists of our own lives. Expressive arts therapy is not looking for an end product, necessarily. It's really about the process and what comes through in doing the art.

Introducing Expressive Arts into Sessions

VY: Can you say how you use art? As you said, people are often going through changes. They're talking about concerns in their lives, some situational issue or an emotional reaction to that, feeling depressed or anxious. How do you go about introducing the expressive arts into a session?
MG: Pretty early on, I observe the client. I bring my intuition into my sessions. I watch body language. Let's say I have a client who is really kinesthetic, moving a lot while she's talking, making certain gestures—for example, she's talking about an issue, and she keeps putting her hand on her heart or keeps holding a part of her body. I might ask her if she'd be open to movement work. And whenever I introduce anything, I do it with a lot of asking permission, asking how it feels, so she doesn't feel like they're being directed. But she's given the opportunity, the invitation, to explore something.
VY: One of the other names of the Rogerian approach is non-directive therapy.
MG: Exactly. And what's important about that is that it makes clients ultimately responsible for their own processes. So I might ask if she would feel comfortable just holding that posture for a bit. Often what happens is the client may hold that gesture, perhaps holding her heart. And then I see more come into it—maybe her shoulders lift up, her facial expression might change. So I say, "If it feels right, why don't you go with that movement and see if there's more there?" And that's a subtle invitation to enter a movement process.
VY: And how might that evolve? A client might get up and move around or dance?
MG: She might get up and move around. She might move where she’s sitting. And if a client feels shy, sometimes I say, “Would you feel more comfortable if I move with you?” Because the body has its own wisdom. What’s happening here is that we’re tapping the body’s wisdom to help inform the person, maybe of something that’s repressed, or something that really wants to come alive. Then I just might check in and say, “What’s going on? What do you want to share about that movement?” At that point, people can easily start describing what they’re feeling, what they’re understanding. Sometimes they have their whole stories come forth. It’s like opening a door into the body.
VY: So, in this case, movement might in turn elicit some emotional reaction or some image or ideas that then they’ll go back and process verbally?
MG: That gives them better understanding. They might process it verbally. If there's time, they could do some freewriting. And I might suggest making some quick "I am" statements to see what comes. It also could go into some art—whatever the client is feeling. I'll usually have chalk pastels and oil pastels. I'll ask, "Would you like to take a color and see if you can draw that shape, or just see what comes through?"

There's so much happening when you tap this deeper language. Using pastels has been a really successful way to draw shapes, draw feelings. Sometimes I start my workshops by having people draw their breath going in and out, and it's such a abstract concept that no one has to feel that there's a right or wrong way to do it.
VY: I’ve seen Natalie say, “Would you like to work with color?” And my sense is that that’s a way of de-emphasizing that this has to be some artistic creation. It’s more just an experience of taking some colors and playing with them.
MG: Yes, it’s very much a meditation. In fact, I use the word “scribble” a lot. I tell people, “When we’re done, you can just throw this away. It doesn’t have to be put up in an art gallery somewhere.” It’s really about what’s happening when clients go into the stillness to just be with themselves in the process, but with me as a witness.
VY: Just so our readers can get a better idea, can you give an example of how this is used in individual therapy?
MG: I have a new client, and this client is an artist. It's funny; I work with all people that are creative, and people come from all different walks of life. But I typically don't work with artists. We talked for a while; she's had some major changes in her life, and she was feeling a block from her artwork.

I talk with clients, too. It's not like it's all expressive arts. In fact, in some cases I may not bring the arts into it if it doesn't feel relevant at the moment, or if it doesn't feel in the flow. But in this case, I asked her if she would like to do some artwork before she went further to her issues. I had her work with pastels. I had her, first of all, just look at the colors and see if there was a color that she was attracted to start with. I let her know, "This does not have to be an art piece. This is a process." I always try to make that clear.

And what unfolded was that she drew aspects of her life in very basic, rudimentary forms. And there were some surprises already, in what she saw there. This was after she came with the issue of block in her artwork. Then we turned to process a little bit more, her sharing her story, which I won't go into. I listened to her carefully. As she talked, she was able to make some discoveries of elements of her life connecting to ongoing issues that she was aware of.

I had her do a second piece towards the end, and the interesting thing was that she was drawn to all the same colors, but this time in her drawing, everything seemed connected, whereas before they had seemed to be these small, disconnected pieces on the paper. Now there seemed to be flow—all the same colors, but everything seemed integrated. You could see movement. A change had happened, and it's not something that's easy to articulate. But using the arts, she could see it. And she could feel it in her body.
It's not something you can read in a book. You can explain details, but until you feel the changes firsthand, you don't get it fully.


Like you say, it's hard to articulate a lot of this because so much is happening at the cellular level, the emotional level. I think all of us who facilitate the person-centered approach have felt like it's not something you can read in a book. You can explain details, but until you actually live it, experience it, and feel the changes firsthand, you don't get it fully.
VY: Coinciding with this interview, we’re publishing a video (LINK) of Natalie working with a client for two sessions. Having a chance to watch that, I certainly got a clear sense of the power of this approach, and how shifts can happen in a short amount of time.
MG: And what I have noticed is that the shifts tend to stick. I'm still in touch with students I had long ago from our training program, or past clients. Person-centered therapy can help to build that self-trust and the trust in the natural movement towards growth. I really try to encourage my clients to know this, and I think that it helps life changes to be healthy ones.

Using Art in Groups

VY: Natalie's first book on this topic was The Creative Connection, and I know she just recently published a follow-up to that, The Creative Connection For Groups. I know you also work with groups. Do any examples of work you've done recently pop to mind?
MG: There's a group process that really stays in my mind, where I saw the profound effect of person-centered and expressive arts therapy. I was doing a seven-day training program. What we like to do is invite feedback every day. It always feels like a bit of a risk to open yourself to feedback, but I find that it's really important because people need to feel that they're safe and that whatever they're feeling or going through is okay and a process.

So I was doing a training, and during a morning feedback session on our second or third day, something arose between two women. It was something about a transportation conflict; one of them was very upset that the other hadn't waited for her at the airport. I said, "Let's go ahead and take some time," and asked people to say how they felt, without blaming, if they could. That's not always possible.

But the people in the training were versed enough in the person-centered approach that they were open to hearing whatever needed to be said. Both these people spoke, and then a couple other people started speaking. The conversation got quite heated. I let it go for a little bit, and then I intervened and said, "I'd like to make a group agreement, because many people are not involved in this conversation. It's important for you to express how you're feeling. But I know there are people who also want to do some work. So can we put a time limit on it?"

So we compromised, and the conversation continued about transportation and what one person said and the other person said. At some point I said, "Okay. The time is up. Do you want to keep going, or shall we do some art?" And, of course, all the other people said, "Let's just do art." So I laid out a huge mural sheet and put on some music that was kind of driven, because I could tell there was a lot of heat in the conversation. We got out paint, and people started just drawing on this mural.

And as a witness of this process, I could see the energy shifting. At first, the drawing people were doing was kind of intense and stark, big. But by the end, people were starting to write poems, affirmations about themselves and their desires. Some spontaneous singing started happening. By the end of that process, I could feel that everything had shifted.

Ultimately, what I know is that in a process like that, those surface feelings that come up are not about the people themselves, but about inner issues that people are grappling with. And to give it space to be there is really, really important.

Collectively, we like to hide that negativity, hide our anger, come to the table with a smile. But something really beautiful happens in the community when people are allowed to be "negative" in a group and have that held—when you see that that's okay and no one's judging you for having those feelings.

The next morning when we had our check-in, it was totally different. People were sharing personal feelings about their woundings and discoveries, but it had nothing to do with the group anymore. So it's really very amazing to see.
VY: Are you suggesting that people may have an easier time expressing some negative feelings through expressive arts than they might be able to put into words?
MG: Yes, because a lot of times the words can be hurtful, or the words aren't even there. It's just this strong energy moving through the body. If you can put that into some artwork, it becomes a creative fire. You can move that strong energy through and see what's underneath it. And that's exactly what happened with that group process.

Building Bridges: Art in International Group Work

VY: You've trained a lot internationally and you've cofounded an expressive center. Is it in Argentina?
MG: That’s right, in Buenos Aires. We have person-centered programs now in many countries.
VY: Any thoughts or comments about doing this work internationally?
MG: The beauty of the person-centered approach is that it lends itself to meet any group, any culture, exactly where it is. You design any program you do towards who you're working with. I don't go in with a structured program. I have a sense of where we might go, but it's always fluid. So with every culture, first I get to know the culture. I hear from them. I hear what they might need.

In Argentina, I knew a little bit about the background of a violent dictatorship in the '70s. So I went into that culture with a lot of humility. What I found was that the culture needed a very tight structure in the beginning. Everything needed to be on time. I needed to be perhaps more directive than I usually am. That just meant that if we were working with a certain modality, I would try to keep everybody with a certain modality, whereas working in an environment where there's already a lot of trust, I might just say, "Whatever modality you want to work with, you can."

But, what I found in Argentina was I needed to hold a tighter structure at first to develop trust. It's a culture that hasn't been able to trust their government in the past, so self-trust then comes into question. The beauty was that their hearts were so tender and beautiful that by the end of the ten-day program, everyone wanted to come back. Everyone wanted to go deeper into the work.

The person-centered approach really has a potential to bring great things into our planet, to bridge cultures.
The biggest thing that I want to underline in working with other cultures is that I think the person-centered approach really has a potential to bring great things into our planet, to bridge cultures. I think it's really important as a way of being with cultures that's accepting, that can bridge us into healthier places.
VY: It seems the arts are an international language. Have you had a chance much to work with groups of people from different cultures in the same group?
MG: Yes. In fact, CIIS (California Institute of Integral Studies) is very multicultural. The art becomes the universal language then. A closeness happens with these groups. What happens in group process is it’s almost like they start dreaming together when the art images start to appear. After the group has been together for a while, these same symbols end up appearing within the group as if they’ve just had the same dream. It’s a wonderful bridge.