Ethical and Legal Issues in Telephone Therapy

With today’s technology we are an ever mobile yet increasingly connected society. For example, a client who you have been treating in office and perhaps with a few phone sessions when he was stuck downtown at his office has now relocated out of state and wants to continue his therapy sessions. With telephone, Skype and e-mail, why not? Why not expand your practice and “see” patients across the country, especially if you have expertise in an area of treatment?

Over the past decade or so therapists have been warned of the pitfalls of telehealth. For example, bogus identities, unintended recipients, individuals lurking in group therapy sessions. There can also be misunderstanding or unavailability of the nuances of communication (verbal and nonverbal) through e-mail or the internet. In more recent years, various Codes of Ethics or statements from national organizations (ACA, APA, etc.) have provided guidelines about the need for informed consent, maintenance of privacy and confidentiality, and billing issues.

Most recently individual states have started to enact statutes regulating telehealth. While all 50 states have laws regarding general telehealth, only few have laws specific to psychologists and therapy. Few state licensing boards also have enacted formal regulations regarding telehealth practice. However, it seems to be only a matter of time until more states enact laws to protect their residents and to hold therapists accountable to their residents. The APA Practice Organization recently published an article about legal basics for psychologists and telehealth that has a concise review of the current legislative actions regarding this topic (APA Practice Organization. Telehealth: Legal Basics for Psychologists, Summer 2010)

Telehealth can be viewed in two broad categories: practice within state and practice across state lines. Within state, the therapist need only refer to the state specific statutes and good clinical practices. Providing therapy across state lines is a little trickier. The APA article noted that there is a strong legal argument that the therapist should be licensed in both the state in which the therapist resides and the state in which the client resides. Most states allow nonresident therapists to obtain a temporary license to practice for a prescribed number of days a year (often 30 days total). Although this may be cumbersome, it will decrease the probability of licensing board sanctions for practicing within another state without a license. Another alternative, for psychologists, is to obtain an interjurisdictional practice certificate to facilitate temporary practice in other states.

Framework for risk management: (1) Review the telehealth laws in your home state and the state of your client. (2) Contact the psychology board of your home state and the state of your client to identify specific telehealth policies. (3) Confirm with your insurance carrier the limitations , if any, to your policy for telehealth for in-state and between-state clients.

Gottman and Gray: The Two Johns

Walk into any bookstore in America —perhaps the world—head for the psychology shelves, and there bound together until sales do them part are the two gurus of relationships, John Gottman and John Gray.

John Gottman virtually invented the science of observing behavior in relationships and can predict future happiness with scary accuracy from groans and grimaces we're scarcely ever aware of. He's a very prolific writer, but most of his work appears in the academic literature. A couple of years ago he penned a popular book, Why Marriages Succeed or Fail. It sells respectably.

Of course, nothing like the books by John Gray: at last count six million copies of Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus. Even his several other books— his latest is Mars and Venus on a Date—sell in the hundreds of thousands. Hey, why save a hot concept for married folks, or even adults? The Mars/Venus juggernaut is readying a kids' version. We haven't even talked about the audiotapes. A run on Broadway. Celebrity Line cruises. CD-ROMs. Seminars, and now the first franchise deal to hit psychotherapy. For a few thousand dollars, plus a yearly renewal fee, you too can buy the right to call yourself a Mars/Venus counseling center. You lack the professional credentials to practice? Don't worry—so does Gray. For somewhat less, anyone with a pulse and a purse can buy the right to lead Mars/Venus groups in the nabe.

John Gottman and John Gray, side by side. The placement invites—no, commands—a comparison of the two. How does their information and advice stack up? The short answer is that Gottman is the gold standard while Gray is the gold earner. Gottman creates top psychology, while Gray mines pop psychology: Even that he's turned into "poop psychology," in the words of one Psychology Today reader. We've extracted the pith from their writing and sayings to compile a handy crib sheet. Judge for yourself.

 A Tale of Two Relationship Gurus

Issue John Gottman John Gray
Chief Motivating Force Research Revenge (first wife Barbara de Angelis taught him seminar biz then ditched him).
Formal Research Naturalistic observation of couples living in apartment laboratory, plus video and physiological monitoring. None.
Number Of Couples Actively Studied 760 0
Longest Period Of Follow-Up 14 years 0
Academic Credentials Ph.D., University of Illinois Ph.D., Mail order, Columbia Pacific U. (unaccredited institution).
License Psychologist Driver
Number Of Journal Articles Written 109 0
Cardinal Rule Of Relationships What people think they do in relationships and what they do do are two different things. Men and women are different.
Defining Statement The everyday mindless moments are the basis of romance in marriages. Before 1950 men were men and women were women.
What Makes Marriage Work Making mental maps of each other's world. Heeding gender stereotypes.
What Makes Marriage Fail Heeding gender stereotypes. Misunderstanding gender differences in communication style.
Heroes Men who put the toilet seat down Men who escape to their cave
Role Of Gender Differences Mark of an ailing relationship. Recipe for success in relationships.
View Of Intimacy Comforts men Scares men
View Of Humor Right up there with sex; communicates acceptance. "Men will tolerate humor. Women won't."
Signs Of Marital Apocalypse Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling. Arguing
How Spouses Do Best Accepting influence from one another. On separate planets.
Key Gender Difference Men's and women's bodies respond differently to conflict Women talk too much about feelings.
Why Men Withdraw Their stress systems are over-activated during marital conflict. They can only tolerate so much intimacy.
Cause Of Conflict Virtually inevitable between two people. She hates Super Bowl Sunday.
Men's Big Mistake Failing to deep breathe during conflict. Solving her problems.
Women's Big Mistake Stating complaints with criticism. Giving advice.
Why Men Don't Help More at Home Their brain cells were not trained to notice domestic themes. They give their all at the office.
Marriage Math There must be 5x as many positives as negatives in marriage. Men and women keep score differently.
What They Say About Each Other "I envy his financial success." "John who?"

This article was previously published in Psychology Today, November 1997 (Vol. 30, No. 6), © Hara Estroff Marano. Reprinted with permission

Kenneth Doka on Grief Counseling and Psychotherapy

Defining Grief

Victor Yalom: Let’s start with the basic building blocks. What is grief and what is its function?
Kenneth Doka: I think it’s probably important to acknowledge and recognize that grief is a reaction to loss. We often confuse it as a reaction to death. It’s really just a very natural reaction to loss and so we can experience grief obviously when someone we’re attached to dies, but we can also experience it when we lose any significant form of attachment. You can certainly experience grief in divorce, in separation, in losing an object that’s particularly meaningful or significant, in losing a job that has meaning or significance. Whenever we experience an attachment and we experience loss in that attachment, grief becomes the natural way we respond to that. We used to look at the function of grief as kind of allowing a process of detachment and a restoration of life in the absence of that person. Now we no longer really use that old sort of Freudian model. We really emphasize that people really don’t detach. They have a changed and continued bond with the person. It’s the process of adjusting to in many ways what’s going to be a new relationship and a different relationship rather than simply the abolition or detachment from a relationship.

VY: What’s your understanding of how grief helps that? Why is it necessary?
KD: I don’t know—necessary is sort of a strange word in this context. I think it’s just a natural reaction as we respond to a significant loss.
VY: There’s so much being written about evolutionary psychology these days. Is there anyone thinking or hypothesizing about some evolutionary or Darwinian function of grief?
KD: I think Bowlby points out that the initial response to grief arises from an evolutionary desire to reattach. We signal distress as a way of gaining attention and support and maybe rebuilding the bond—think of the child who’s lost in a store and the toddler all of a sudden starts crying and gets help and assistance and maybe even the mother hears the cries. Grief may come from that very basic sense of attachment, but even from an evolutionary standpoint, you can say, even then for an animal who loses a significant attachment, calling attention to oneself is a mixed blessing.
VY: You write that we’ve moved away from universal stages, such as the Kubler-Ross stages to individual pathways of grief.
KD: We used to look for some kind of universal reactions and Kubler-Ross was one such pattern. Actually, Kubler-Ross never really spoke, until later in her work, about applying this to grief; she was talking about a particular aspect of coping with dying, but even there, we move toward more individualized reaction. There are other people who attempted to find—Colin Murray Parkes at one point in his career attempted to find these kind of universal sort of stages that everyone goes through. But now what we recognize is that grief is highly individual and individuals grieve in their own way. Certainly their responses to grief can include a number of dimensions. We can respond to grief physically, on a very visceral physical level with aches and pains and all kinds of physical reactions. We can respond with emotional reactions—sadness, loneliness, yearning, jealousy even, anger, guilt are all relatively common reactions, as well other ones—just a sense of relief sometimes, when a person’s suffering has been very, very long. We can respond cognitively. We may think about the person. We may experience a sense of depersonalization. We may find it hard to focus or concentrate. We can respond behaviorally—again, acting-out behaviors or withdrawal or lashing-out behaviors or even things like avoiding or seeking reminders of the person who died or the thing that was lost. Of course, it can affect us spiritually. Again, everybody’s pattern of grief is highly unique.
VY: You make a point about denial, that people go in and out of denial. It’s not a black or white thing. How do you think about denial?
KD: I think probably most of my writing and talking about denial has probably been in the context of illness. There, what I would say is, again, denial is a basic defense mechanism. Avery Weisman uses a very good term when he talks about life-threatening illness. He talks about middle knowledge.
True denial is very, very difficult to maintain, but people sometimes choose not to focus on their illness, so it is more of a selective inattention than actual denial.
True denial is very, very difficult to maintain, but people sometimes choose not to focus on their illness, so it is more of a selective inattention than actual denial. Again, I think you see that same pattern in grief. It’s hard to really deny a significant loss, but sometimes we choose not to focus on it.

Intuitive vs. Instrumental Grieving

VY: Let’s get back to grieving styles, as that’s been one of your major contributions. You developed these ideas of the intuitive grieving style, which is a more emotional style of processing grief, versus the instrumental style, which is more cognitive and action oriented. Tell us about these and how you came up with these concepts.
KD: That was work I did with Terry Martin from Hood College. Originally, what we were doing was exploring the issue of gender and grief—on differences between the ways men grieve and the ways women grieve. As we moved on into that work and began to do some research, we found that these “male patterns” and “female patterns” were really more widely distributed than we had perceived.
VY: It wasn’t purely male or purely female.
KD: Exactly. We first moved into what we called—kind of with a Jungian perspective—masculine and feminine grief, knowing that men or women could have a more feminine pattern or vice versa. Then we realized that the gender connection was probably unhelpful and inappropriate, so we moved away from gender, although not entirely. We’re saying gender is one of the factors, certainly, that influences one’s grieving style, and certainly we would be comfortable in saying more men may have an instrumental style or lean toward the instrumental style in U.S. culture and probably in many Western cultures. So it’s influenced by gender, but not determined by it. And we look at this as a continuum, so many people are sort of in the middle or maybe an alternate visualization would be two overlapping Venn diagrams with some space separate and lots of space sort of shaped. People who are highly intuitive as grievers will often—when you ask them about their experience of grief, they’ll often talk about waves of affect and waves of emotion. When you ask them how that grief was expressed, it’ll mirror those reactions, “I just kind of felt this. I cried. I screamed. I shouted.” Their expression of grief mirrors their inner experience of grief. When you ask them what helps, how they adapted to grief, they’ll often talk about the fact that it really was helpful for them to find some place, whether in therapy, whether with a confidante, whether in a support group, whether in their own journaling or internal process, to sort of explore their feelings.

On the other end of the continuum are what we call instrumental grievers, and with them the very experience of grief is different. When you ask them how they experience grief, they often will talk about it in very physical or cognitive ways: “I just kept thinking about the person. I kept running over it in my mind. I felt I was kicked in the stomach. I felt somebody punch me.” When you ask them how grief was expressed, sometimes they’ll be curious about that question. They might respond at first “I guess I didn’t express much grief,” but then when you really talk to them about it, they’ll say, “I did talk about the person a lot” or “I was very active in setting up this scholarship fund.” They may not always recognize that as an expression of grief. They may actually be perplexed by their lack of affect. It’s not that they lack affect. Their affect is more muted. When you ask them what helps, it’s often the doing.
VY: You give a great example in your book, Grieving Beyond Gender, of a man whose daughter crashed into a neighbor’s fence and died, and he spent his time after the death rebuilding the neighbor’s fence.
KD: Right, and it’s important to recognize that was the most helpful thing he did. One of the things that sort of helped us think about this was — in my book on disenfranchised grief, Dennis Ryan does a chapter on the death of his stillborn son, which as we were thinking about this, really was a kind of enlightening moment. Dennis is a professor by vocation, but a sculptor by avocation. He talks about after his son was stillborn, this long-awaited child,
his wife would come back from work each day and go upstairs and have a good cry and he would be working, crafting the perfect memorial stone out of a piece of granite. As he’s chipping away at this granite and hearing his wife cry, he’s saying, “Why aren’t I grieving?
his wife would come back from work each day and go upstairs and have a good cry and he would be working, crafting the perfect memorial stone out of a piece of granite. As he’s chipping away at this granite and hearing his wife cry, he’s saying, “Why aren’t I grieving? Where is my grief?” Of course, it’s obvious where his grief was.

Bias in the Mental Health Profession

VY: You said that the mental health profession has had a strong bias toward intuitive or emotional grieving.
KD: Sue and Sue, in their book in Counseling the Culturally Diverse, describe western counseling as swallowed by affect, meaning that the quintessential counseling question is, “how do you feel?” In grief, we’d say a better question would be, “How did you react?” or “how did you respond?” By saying, "How do you feel?" you take one of the dimensions of the ways to respond to grief and make that the primary one.
VY: If this has been the dominant paradigm in counseling and therapy for grief, what kind of problems does that cause for the instrumental griever?
KD: For the instrumental griever, it may simply not validate the honesty of his response. There is one other type of griever we talk about in our book too. We certainly recognize that lots of people are blended. They’re sort of in the middle and they have characteristics of both. We also talk about dissonant grievers. Dissonant grievers are people who really experience grief one way, but find it difficult to express it that way. This might be the male who feels he has to maintain a strong image and though he’s strongly intuitive in his experience, he does in fact repress his emotions.
VY: You also mentioned disenfranchised grief. Can you define that?
KD: Sure. Disenfranchised grief refers to losses that people have that aren’t always acknowledged or validated or recognized by others. You can’t publically mourn those, receive social support or openly acknowledge these losses. This actually started with research I did on ex-spouses — what happens when your ex-spouse dies. A lot of these people really couldn’t get time off from work, because after all, ex-spouse isn’t in the grief rules, the bereavement leave, but whether it’s an ex-spouse or not, you often had a strong relationship and a continued relationship with that person. Then we expanded it. Now when we talk about disenfranchised grief, we talk about a host of relationships that aren’t recognized—teachers, mentors, coach, therapist, patients. Think about that. This would be an interesting dimension. You have a profound relationship with a patient—in some cases, on either end, and when the therapist dies, especially if nobody knows they’ve been seeking therapy, they may have had a significant loss and yet really no opportunity to openly acknowledge or mourn that loss.
VY: When it’s disenfranchised, it’s not noticed or valued or accepted by others that this is really a significant loss.
KD: Or you may just be ashamed to bring it up. In other cases where the loss isn’t always recognized, such as divorce or…we’re better on perinatal loss than we used to be, but for mothers, not necessarily for fathers and siblings and grandparents and others. It’s sometimes when the griever isn’t recognized as being capable of grief—somebody with intellectual disabilities or sometimes the very old or the very young. Sometimes it’s a result of the type of loss that the person experiences—suicide, AIDS, homicide. Then just the ways the person grieves—grieving styles may not be always acknowledged. We do a strange thing with grieving styles. I always say we disenfranchise instrumental grievers early in the process. “What’s wrong with this person? Why isn’t he crying?” We disenfranchise intuitive grievers later in the process. “What’s wrong with that person? He or she is still crying. Why haven’t they gotten over it yet?” Of course, sometimes it can be for cultural reasons. Again, different cultures have different rules about how one is to mourn and especially in bicultural families, others may look askance at different people’s grief.
VY: Once you start throwing in all these factors—different grieving styles, disenfranchised grief, cultural differences—if we move into the area of counseling, how do you help bereaved people? It can get fairly complicated.
KD: It can, which shouldn’t be surprising, because it is always complicated.
VY: Let’s start with the grief styles. Grief is a fairly universal process, but as you pointed out, people grieve differently. How do you even know if grief counseling or a support group or some other type of intervention is necessary to begin with?
KD: I think that’s a very good question, because I think the truth is that most people—and studies vary between 80% to 90%—probably do pretty well without any formal intervention or may just need what we would call grief counseling in the sense of just some validation that says, “No, it’s understandable. No, you’re doing okay.”
VY: So, that would be normal, uncomplicated grieving in?
KD: Yes, that would be a normal, uncomplicated kind of grieving. Bibliotherapy can be so effective with these people, as it provides that basic validation. It provides some good psychoeducation. It may provide some ideas for coping and certainly says that most people get through this. That may be all that’s needed, or they may benefit from psychoeducational seminars, or support groups, or even in short-term counseling. Others may have more significant reactions. One of the things that’s kind of interesting now is there’s some movement to create a category for the next DSM, the DSM-V, called Prolonged Grief Disorder. There are some critics about that, but at this point in time it’s probably an even bet as to whether it’s going to be included or not. Certainly people who are self-destructive, certainly people who are destructive with others, certainly when grief is disabling—where a person really is having a difficult time functioning in a work role or functioning in another role—these are good examples of grief which is more problematic.
VY: Okay, so say you have someone who, for whatever reason, has sought out grief counseling or is already in therapy and then experiences a significant loss. You’ve written that it’s important to first assess what their grieving style is. How do you go about doing that?
KD: First, you ask them about how they’ve tended to experience grief. You ask them about their history about how they’ve dealt with losses before, how they’ve experienced and expressed and adapted to losses before. There are a variety of ways you go about that. And then you ask them about how they have responded to the current loss. An intuitive griever might say, “I just feel sad all the time. I have this overwhelming sense of sadness.” An instrumental griever would probably answer in another domain: “I just can’t concentrate. I just can’t focus since he died. I feel like somebody punched me in the stomach.” So the key to any assessment is asking questions that don’t necessarily prompt one response or another, and then really listening to the language that they use. The book I’d really recommend for people who are starting out in this field or who just need a little bit of a refresher is Worden’s book Grief Counseling and Grief Therapy. Beyond grieving style, there are a lot of things you have to assess.
VY: And as you’ve said, some people are fairly clear-cut, whereas others are blended grievers.
KD: You’ll get a sense for blended grievers as you hear them describe how their grief experience is now versus how they’ve reacted historically to losses. The tip-off would be that if somebody says, “I’ve had a very close relationship with this person and I responded this way,” but you notice that they’ve tended to respond other ways in the past. Maybe they’ve always responded in an intuitive way before and now they’re dealing in a much more instrumental way; that’s when it really becomes kind of intriguing and you really want to ask, “Why the difference now when historically you’ve coped and responded in these other ways?”
VY: I think most counselors or therapists have a pretty good sense of doing therapy with an intuitive or emotionally-based person. That’s the paradigm we’re used to. That’s what we think of. If you have someone who is pretty clearly on the instrumental end of things, what implication does that have? How would you conduct therapy differently?
KD: You start out by respecting and validating that style and helping them draw on their historic strengths. You don’t try to push them to an emotional place that’s going to be very uncomfortable for them. You say, “You’ve mentioned that you’re dealing with a little bit of this guilt. What has helped you before?” Maybe it’s helping them construct some kind of active way to deal with that guilt or to memorialize that person or to do something else. You build on their strengths.
VY: You support them and normalize their reactions.
KD: You support them and normalize. For instance, if I had a Dennis Ryan who said, “I don’t know. I’m not grieving. My wife cries every day and I just hammer away at this stone,” then you might try to help them recognize that that is his expression of grief and it’s a legitimate expression of grief. And you might ask, “Where does that help you? Where are its limits? What else do you need to work with as you deal with this?”
VY: You said there are some more complicated cases. Someone may be an intuitive griever, but for one reason, they’re not accessing their natural response or vice versa. Why might that be?
KD: I think you try to ask what are the inhibiting factors. Maybe the person needs a safe space. For instance, one case I had was a person whose young daughter died of cancer. He tended to be very emotional with other losses, but in this case he removed all the pictures of his daughter—he didn’t want any reminders—and that caused a conflict with his wife. That’s what brought them, really. His wife basically said, I can’t deal with you this way. You need to seek help.
VY: This can create real conflict among couples.
KD: Sure. If they have a different grieving style and they don’t recognize that. This is an extreme case in which it did cause conflict. This guy was an engineer by training, and it was very, very clear that from his past history that he tended to experience things on a very emotional level, but was really repressing emotions in this case. We talked about that and he said, “I’m really fearful if I start letting go of some of these emotions, it’ll be like a dam bursting and I won’t be able to control myself.” And I responded “Don’t dams have an overflow valve?” I’m sort of well known among my friends for not being particularly mechanical or handy. The joke is that my favorite tool is my checkbook. So I was very proud that I figured out that analogy! Then we used that analogy, that he has to find safe places to release some of this emotion and we talked about the strategy of dosing. You can control it. You can dose it.

He found ways to do that. One of the things he used to do was he had a particular song that reminded him of his daughter and he played that on his way home from work and he’d weep. That would reduce some of the energy of his grief, the issue. Then, over time, he was able to begin to talk about his daughter and begin to become confident that he didn’t always have to keep things bottled up. He was able to talk about it and release some of his emotion and at times cry with his wife, and this wasn’t going to leave him fully losing control.

Grief Counseling in Action

VY: Would you say it’s still the case that most therapists don’t get much specific training in grief counseling?
KD: It scares me, yes.
VY: Why does it scare you?
KD: I think that there’s been a real explosion of material about grief in the last 20 years. In my mind, it’s become a specialty. I see clients who have come and say, “I’ve been working with my therapist, but I still can’t accept the loss.”
And you know they’re coming from a kind of Kubler-Rossian kind of model and you’re thinking, “My God, people haven’t been doing that stuff for 15, 20 years in the field.
And you know they’re coming from a kind of Kubler-Rossian kind of model and you’re thinking, “My God, people haven’t been doing that stuff for 15, 20 years in the field.” What we’re saying is that you continue a bond with the person, that it’s very, very normal throughout your life, that you’re going to have surges of grief maybe 30 years later. Your dad died and 30 years later, your granddaughter’s walking down the aisle and you’re thinking, “I wish my father were here to see that.” This is very normal stuff and as I said, there’s a lot of poor information about grief out there, which I think is being filtered into some therapeutic context. I think people who are going to do grief counseling need to really keep abreast of the literature in it.
VY: All therapists have to know how to deal with this. I mean, even if you’re not trained as an addictions counselor, you’re going to have clients who come in for one reason and then you’re going to find out that they have an addiction. Similarly, you’re going to have people that come in to your practice as a general practitioner that are dealing with grief—either as a presenting complaint or in the course of therapy, they’re going to have losses. But I think they really don’t know how they should respond to a grieving client, other than of course being empathic and supportive.
KD: I think there’s some basic information that, therapists ought to be aware of. As I said, we’ve moved away from stages to more universal pathways. We’ve moved away from detachment to a paradigm that emphasizes that we continue a bond with the person. There’s a number of ways that our understanding of grief has changed.
VY: If you had to give some bullet points or a primer to a therapist who does not have specialized training in grief counseling, what are the things you think they need to know or skills that would be good to develop?
KD: I think number one would be to recognize grief in its many manifestations, not just as a response to death, but as a response to any significant loss. I think to understand the fact that we have our own personal pathways, that we do not detach but continue a bond with the person who died, that we recognize the increasing importance of how culture frames our response to grief.
VY: You mentioned culture a couple of times. Can you think of any cases you’ve dealt with or supervised where cultural aspects have been important?
KD: It’s a hard question to answer, because I think culture always has to play a role; every case I supervise has a cultural aspect. I’m half Hispanic and in Hispanic culture, godparents are very, very important. If somebody comes in, they may very well in fact be mourning a godparent and a therapist who’s not familiar with that culture may be trying to figure out why that role is so significant. They’re actually called comadres, compadres—meaning literally co-parents or parenting with.I think understanding how culture affects attachment, how it affects the expression of grief, how different cultures have different rituals—these are all critical pieces to take into mind.
VY: Any case examples jump out as you’re talking about it?
KD: I remember dealing with a client who is Native-American and we used some of the expressive arts. Ultimately he did some wood carving as a way to memorialize the loss, and I think that was very culturally compatible with who he was and what he was and with his culture. It’s kind of a totem-like thing that he ended up carving as a memorial to the person who died.
VY: Was that something he did on his own or did the therapist encourage him to do this?
KD: The therapist encouraged him, by first asking, “What do you normally do?” Again, it’s a sensitivity to what interventions and what strategies work well with what types of people. I just want to go back to make one other comment on those bullet points. The last bullet point I would emphasize is that, I think one of the things we’ve moved away from, as a field, is just asking the question, how do we cope with grief to how has this loss changed us? I think there’s also been a recognition of what some theorists have called post-traumatic growth, that for some, a significant loss is sometimes a spur to significant personal growth.
VY: People that are with their partner or loved ones at the time of death often talk about this being a powerful experience, even a sacred experience, although they might not identify themselves as being religious or spiritually inclined.
KD: They may not be religious, but inevitably it’s a spiritual experience, because it has to do with issues of meaning and transcendence.
As an aftermath of death, people may experience growth in skills, they may have new insights, new priorities in their life, a renewed spirituality
As an aftermath of death, people may experience growth in skills, they may have new insights, new priorities in their life, a renewed spirituality—there’s lots of changes that can occur. Again, sometimes they can go on and use these losses to make very significant changes. I think of John Walsh, host of America’s Most Wanted, whose son Adam was kidnapped and ultimately found decapitated. When he first realized his six-year-old son was missing, the police took a very nonchalant attitude and they said, “If he’s still not here in 24 hours, we’ll go look for him.” He then went on a crusade to change the way we as a society responded to the issue of missing children. The woman who founded Mothers Against Drunk Driving again used her grief to change the way we looked at drinking and driving in the US. It’s very different now than it was 30 years ago. Even teenagers are aware of the fact that there are real complications if you do this. So sometimes grief can be a spur to significant social action as well.
VY: What are some common mistakes or countertransference issues that therapists and grief counselors deal with?
KD: Again, I think failing to recognize the personal pathways, to accept that the client’s ways of grieving, and of not being aware of whatever countertransference issues you have in terms of loss or working through loss. I think using outmoded theories, using outmoded methodologies or even having a single approach.
VY: What about burnout or compassion fatigue?
KD: I think that’s a big issue in grief counseling, because you’re working with people in the midst of suffering. The research on that has really kind of emphasized that self-care is critical in the sense that you validate your own loss, especially if you’re working with people who are dying or ill, and you look toward your own spirituality, however you define it, as to how you deal with suffering and loss and that you find significant ways to find respite.

I think it’s also emphasized that organizations have a responsibility which includes providing support for their staff, providing validation for their staff and maybe even providing opportunities for the staff to engage in their own rituals as a way of validating and supporting their loss. Years ago, I worked with a project where staff dealt with foster parents who were taking on HIV positive kids and this was right at the very beginning of the epidemic, when the standard rule of thumb was that a third of the kids died within six months, another third died within the first year and everybody was dead within three years. They found their social work nursing staff was deeply affected by these losses and so they provided a range of supportive services, including an in-house ritual whenever a child died and a staff support group, as well as and the informal support of administrators recognizing the significance of those relationships and losses and really trying to be supportive to staff in whatever ways they could be.
VY: It seems there’s also a particular problem—you’ve talked about the bias towards intuitive grievers in terms of clients, but it seems there’s also a problem for therapists or counselors who are more instrumental in their grieving style, because working in the mental health field, they can easily be made to feel that they’re not empathic enough or that there’s something defective about them.
KD: I think there’s a paradox there and the paradox is that very often people who get into grief counseling field do it as an instrumental way of coping—so they often can find themselves disenfranchised by the field they selected. I think that was why when I worked on styles of grieving, which we thought was so contrary to the conventional wisdom at the time—that it was so supported by grief counselors, because they acknowledged and recognized what they saw in themselves.
VY: Ron Levant has a different terminology for that, what you’re referring to as instrumental grievers, he talks about as action empathy. Empathy is not just feeling another person, but you can act in ways that are empathic. You give examples of that in your book as well—that someone who takes care of their dying spouse and does a lot of things after the death, but they still feel like they’re not empathic enough because they don’t feel the loss as much as other people do. I think there tends to be a confusion between feeling intensely and empathy, which are in fact two separate concepts. I mean you can feel a lot, but that doesn’t mean you’re actually behaving in a way that’s empathic toward someone.
KD: Right. I would agree with you.
VY: And conversely, you may not feel others so intensely, but you can care deeply about someone and act in a way that is putting their needs first.
KD: Yeah, very definitely.
VY: So, it seems that this can really be troubling to counselors or therapists that are doing good work but have this idea that if they don’t feel a lot—and that idea may be reinforced by their colleagues—that there’s something wrong with them.
KD: Well, a lot of the clinical training is affectively based.
VY: Any thoughts about individual counseling versus group counseling or support groups. How might you make that determination on what would be most appropriate?
KD: For uncomplicated people who are grieving, a support group can be very, very fine. When you look at the research on grief counseling it shows that you need a careful assessment and an individual targeting of intervention. As far as the question of support groups, you need to look at whether the support group is well run, and does it have an emphasis on positive coping and even potentially transformation? You know, how is this experience changing you?
Sometimes the problem with support groups is they can be just places of what we call "shared anguish" where everybody just kind of comes in and says, "Hey, if you think that story’s bad, let me top it off."
Sometimes the problem with support groups is they can be just places of what we call "shared anguish" where everybody just kind of comes in and says, "Hey, if you think that story’s bad, let me top it off." And so you come out of the support group thinking, "Wow, you know, the world’s hostile." So, a good support group leader would say, "Okay, yeah, that was a pretty horrible experience, but how did you cope with that, and how have others of you coped with experiences like that and what have you learned from those?" So there’s got to be this notion of emphasizing not just the sharing of anguish, but also how we kind of deal with that anguish.
VY: I imagine support groups also can be problematic for instrumental grievers if the focus is primarily on expression of affect.
KD: Yeah, it can be. There was the Harvard bereavement study found that, for instance, single dads benefitted more from more problem-oriented support groups like "How to be a good single dad,” rather than groups that really focused on their grief experience.
VY: So, that would be, of course, important to assess that grieving style in making a referral. What are you currently working on now?
KD: Well, we’re doing a book now on spirituality in loss for the Hospice Foundation of America, and so that’s my current project right at the moment. We’re looking now at the issue of spirituality a little bit more deeply.
VY: And just to wrap up, what are some of the most meaningful things you have learned personally and professionally working in this field for several decades?
KD: Well, I’ve very much enjoyed my involvement with two professional associations, The International Work Group on Death, Dying and Bereavement, and The Association of Death, Education, and Counseling. The International Work Group is an invited group—you have to be involved in the field to be invited to join it. But the Association, anybody who’s really interested in grief counseling should join and you’ll benefit tremendously from your experience in that. I very much have found my work with the Hospice Foundation of American to be extraordinarily meaningful, because in many ways—we publish a newsletter for the bereaved called Journeys—and I think what’s really been exciting about that is getting some of the best people in the field to do some writing, really with a self-help emphasis, and really taking some of the best of current theory and practice and really translating it to a lay public. And that newsletter goes out to 60,000 people a year, so that’s a significant segment of people for a bereavement newsletter. And then, of course, I love teaching graduate students at the college in New Rochelle. That’s always a meaningful experience for me.
VY: Well, I think this has been a great—we’ve packed a lot of material into one interview and I think it will be of great interest to our readers. Thank you for taking the time.
KD: Thank you for the thoughtful interview.

Owen Renik on Practical Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy

Randall C. Wyatt: Any interesting cab experiences?
Owen Renik: Oh, many, it was a wonderful job.
Driving a cab is kind of like being a shrink, except that you sit in front of the patient.
Driving a cab is kind of like being a shrink, except that you sit in front of the patient. You know what people are like; it's like strangers on a train, people open up. It was a different New York then. There was no plexiglas between you and the customer. You flipped the arm down and you split the paid miles with the owner of the medallions and after about 10 o'clock at night it was all making deals about going to Brooklyn. I drove anywhere in the city then—not without fear—but without restraint.

Driving a cab in NY

RW: Let’s start, Owen, with the story that has circulated around that you drove a cab to pay your way through medical school; some people wonder if that’s how you got your start in therapy.
OR: I drove a cab in New York for several years while I was doing what we called post-bac or pre-med requirements. When I got out of Columbia I didn't have any of those requirements. And, no, no, I knew I wanted to be a shrink before I drove the cab. When I went to medical school, I stopped driving a cab and I missed it. For years, if I came into New York, like on New Years' eve, and nobody could get a cab, I would go with my date and pick people up and take them where they wanted to go, actually play cabbie for a while.
RW: There’s a reality TV show on cab rides where the customers tell the cab driver all kinds of things.
OR: Oh yeah, I saw an episode. This lesbian couple gets in the cab and one of them says, "This is my girlfriend, and this is the toy we use in bed ," and so on. Wild.
RW: When there’s a little distance people will tell their stories. And they really don’t expect the cab driver to tell anybody because who is the cab driver going to tell?
OR: It's anonymous. One doesn't give names. It's a cash business. It was a lot of fun.

Don’t be a schmuck, go to medical school!

RW: You were trained as a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst. What first stirred your interest in psychiatry and psychoanalysis?
OR: Well, I began by wanting to be a therapist. I was going to get my PhD in psychology and was accepted to graduate school. They gave me some scholarships but I didn't graduate from college on time so I couldn't go that year. There were a few glitches. I was not wrapped too tight in those days. So, I took a job at Paine-Whitney, a freestanding psychiatry hospital in New York as a psych. tech, midnight 'til 8 am, to see what the deal was working with very disturbed patients.
I saw immediately what the pecking order was at the hospital and I figured I wouldn't last thirty seconds taking orders from some schmuck with a stethoscope.
I saw immediately what the pecking order was at the hospital and I figured I wouldn't last thirty seconds taking orders from some schmuck with a stethoscope. I saw what the realpolitik was.
RW: Were you interested in psychoanalytic thinking yet?
OR: No, I was not interested in psychoanalysis because the little contact that I had with the New York psychoanalytical community was, you know, these people were undertakers. I mean they were like the walking dead. I couldn't imagine it. I went to medical school to become a psychiatrist.
RW: Let’s go back a few steps, how did you end up in med school?
OR: At the time I didn't think I could sit still long enough to get through medical school. When I say I wasn't wrapped too tight, I really wasn't wrapped too tight. I didn't know what to do and I didn't know anybody to ask. You know, my mother graduated high school and my father dropped out of manual trades high school after two years. Nobody in my family had been to college, let alone medical school.

So I looked up Rose Franzblau in phone book; she wrote a psychology column for the New York Post, that for the liberal and the Jewish community was the paper. It's now a rag, but in those days everybody worshiped it. The publisher, Dorothy Schiff, was like the Virgin Mary. So I called Rose up and said, "Look, I'd like to talk to you about going to graduate school in psychology versus medical school. Could you see me? I know you from your column. " And she said, "No, you don't want to talk to me. You want to talk to my husband, Abe. He's Chair of Psychiatry at Mount Sinai Hospital." So I called him up the next day and he says, "Oh, yeah, Rose said you were going to call. Could you come over this afternoon to see me?" So he cuts me an hour and a half out of his day.
Abe was a sweet guy, real caring, a mensch. I go over there and after talking with him for an hour or so, he says "Go to medical school. Don't be a schmuck."
Abe was a sweet guy, real caring, a mensch. I go over there and after talking with him for an hour or so, he says "Go to medical school. Don't be a schmuck." (laughter all around)
RW: That would be hard to refuse.
OR: I said, "Yeah, but I'm not," He interrupts me, "It's not so hard. Don't worry. You'll get there." So I went 'cause Abe told me to go. (laughing exuberantly) But, anyhow, that's how I got involved in all of this stuff.

I went to the upstate medical school in Syracuse. Then I did my psychiatry internship at Denver General Hospital, a real knife and gun club, you know, real down amongst 'em county hospital internship which I enjoyed thoroughly.
RW: Then, how did you end up in San Francisco?
OR: I visited friends in California in the late 60s and I loved it. I wanted to go to the Stanford residency psychiatry program, which would have been a hilarious mistake for me. Irv, pace Irv. (laughter) I didn't interview with Irv. It was Khatchaturian I was speaking to then. I liked the place and the people that I met. But I had no idea how research-oriented it was. And I don't need to tell you how different being in Palo Alto is from being in San Francisco. But Stanford couldn't tell me yet whether I was accepted and Mount Zion in San Francisco had offered me a place. I had no idea what I was stepping into; it turned out to be a great, great department. I wanted to be in San Francisco, so I came. That's where it was happening. But this was 1969, the summer of '69.
RW: That was quite a time, the ’60s in San Francisco was thriving place to be.
OR: Yeah. I thought I died and went to heaven. (laughter from all)
RW: You started getting interested in psychoanalysis then?
OR: Yeah! Because of the people I ran into at Mount Zion. I came out here just to be a psychiatrist. And I ran into wonderful people like Eddie Weinshel, he died recently, Vic Calif, and Bob Wallerstein, and Norm Reider. They're all mavericks who thought for themselves and they were real people. I became interested in psychoanalysis through them.
RW: And what did you notice about changes in psychology and psychoanalysis then?
OR: But I was not sophisticated, Randy. It's not as if I was aware of the changes at the time. I didn't know beans about it. I had read Freud in college and the idea of becoming a shrink seemed great to me.

How therapy saved Renik’s ass

RW: Had you been in therapy yourself yet?
OR: I'd had therapy in New York that had saved my ass, really, with an analyst, although that did not convince me that analysis was worthwhile because I didn't think she was being very psychoanalytic.
RW: You said that therapy “saved your ass.” How so? And you said she was quite an analyst. What do you think she did to help you?
OR: Yeah it did. I didn't think she was being very analytic per se yet what she did was extremely helpful to me. It's not always so easy to be able to put your finger on how a treatment helps you, but, in this case, I really could. She permitted me to understand something and that made an enormous difference in my life. When I say I wasn't wrapped too tight, I mean from a very early age I was really scrambling in life because I felt very guilty about not being able to help my mother. And, eventually, when I left the family in order to survive, I felt really bad about that.
RW: Your mother was quite ill and depressed.
OR: Yeah, she was, very. My understanding of it up until I had this therapy was that her physical illness had been the cause of it. She had a very bad case of myasthenia gravis, which is a terrible illness when it's not treatable; it was the very early days—they didn't know much about it then.
Victor Yalom: What was the illness again?
Owen Renik: Myasthenia gravis. It's a neurological illness. It's essentially a disorder of the way the nerves innervate the muscles. You become weak, atrophied, even flaccidly paralyzed. It was horrible. But I recognized and learned, with my therapist's help, that the real problem had been my mother's reaction to her physical illness. She could have made a much better life for herself and for our family had she had a different attitude. She didn't cooperate with the medical treatment. It was catastrophic. Realizing that was enormously liberating for me. Years after my mother died, I was eventually able to confront my father about this. And I learned from him that she had been psychotically depressed prior to ever becoming physically ill. I had screen memories that came from having been shipped out of the house for months before I was two years old, while my mother was in the hospital getting shock treatment. So, it was an enormously important therapy for me. I have sent many, many patients to my therapist, Hanna Kapit, in New York. And we remain friends to this day.
VY: In what way wasn’t she psychoanalytic?
OR:
Well, she did not fit the stereotype of a psychoanalyst that I had in my mind at the time. She was personal. She was friendly. She was not lowered by a string into the session, in a lotus position.
Well, she did not fit the stereotype of a psychoanalyst that I had in my mind at the time. She was personal. She was friendly. She was not lowered by a string into the session, in a lotus position. (laughs) I remember once, and by the way, we're going back forty-five years now, guys…
RW: We’re going through the screen.
OR: Well, you know, when something is important, it sticks. I remember I was feeling very humiliated about having feelings for my therapist because I couldn't imagine that she had feelings for me. I'm not even talking about sexual desire. I'm just talking about loving feelings. And she said, "What makes you think I don't have feelings about you?" Oh, it was a big revelation for me.
VY: And why shouldn’t the therapist reveal those feelings?
OR: Right. Well, all I knew was the stereotype and Hanna didn't conform to it. She's a good example of why psychoanalysis has lasted, despite a really pretty cockamamie theory.
There are really good people who are analysts, who, despite the theory, they find a way to be helpful to patients.
There are really good people who are analysts, who, despite the theory, they find a way to be helpful to patients.
RW: Can you isolate it a little more? What are you saying that she did that helped?
OR: Well, the one that stands out for me is helping me realize that my mother was not simply the helpless victim of this physical illness, but that there was some kind of choice there. That it was a psychological problem. I don't want to over-dramatize it but the psychology that I was suffering from was essentially that of, like, the child of a holocaust survivor. You've got a parent who is a completely helpless victim, without any choices, of this external thing. It changed my whole view of my parents and my relationship with my parents, and myself, essentially. I calmed down enormously, actually. I was less anxious and therefore less defended against anxiety. And my defenses against anxiety had been quite costly for me. I mean I was really out there and moving pretty quickly.
RW: So, you came out here to San Francisco, became a psychiatrist, and then got trained as an analyst. Where?
OR: I got my training at the Institute (The San Francisco Psychoanalytic Institute).
RW: And when did you first become disillusioned with traditional or orthodox analytic practice? Do you remember what set you off?
OR: It didn't happen like that, Randy. I didn't become disillusioned since I never had illusions to begin with. It's a little bit deceptive, because I had such a successful career within the ranks. I have all the merit badges. I was Editor of the Psychoanalytic Quarterly for 10 years and Chairman of the Program Committee of the American Psychoanalytic Association, etc. But it was never because I bought in. I was always thinking for myself about what seemed sensible and what didn't. I never drank the Kool-Aid, but I was respectful of what I was taught. And I didn't just decide sittin' in the armchair. I mean it was after doing analyses for quite some time and seeing what seemed to be useful or not that I reached my conclusions.

So, it was really a gradual evolution that I moved farther and farther away from standard psychoanalysis. I just questioned more and more and more things, as time went on. The way I see it, I evolved during the thirty or so years after I graduated, while psychoanalysis remained at a standstill. It's not that I became disillusioned, I was always wondering.
RW: People call you a maverick analyst or a rebel, unorthodox. You’ve heard these terms.
OR: Oh, sure, sure.
RW: And what do you think people mean by these things they say about you?
OR: These terms only apply if you have an orthodoxy. In science, which is what psychoanalysis began as, and ought to have remained, which it did not. In science, there's no such thing as being anti-, there is no such thing as being a maverick or a rebel. You're not only entitled to question even the most basic assumptions of the discipline, you're encouraged to question the most basic assumptions. So, the term, maverick, or rebel, in itself contains the answer to your question. It's because psychoanalysis is a faith-based movement, at this point; it's a sect. It perpetuates received wisdom which is not really, despite claims to the contrary, open to question. Psychoanalysis is no longer a scientific enterprise. So people who, for whatever reasons, don't hew to the established received wisdom, are labeled as heretics. That's the reason I'm called a maverick, and a rebel.

Many of the best and the brightest were really excluded from becoming analysts because they were sorted out in the admissions process. Or they took one look at the orthodoxy of it and did not run into the few, sort of exceptional people that I did, and then said, "Who needs this?"

The crux: Self-awareness and symptom change

RW: So what are some of the key ingredients of the orthodoxy, the traditional psychoanalysis that you challenged?
OR: Jeez, it's so much, at this point that you can dip in wherever you want. First and foremost, the clinical method is really screwy, in my opinion. It's very self-deceived. And, without realizing it, it's at the patient's expense.

I would say the most fundamental problem is that psychoanalysis, the professional community, has drifted away from and has essentially abandoned symptom relief as the criterion for whether treatment is working. Freud never did, by the way. That was Freud's criterion, right up till the end. Freud only considered treatment to be working when symptoms got better, when there started being a therapeutic benefit. He often warned against therapeutic zeal saying he was a researcher and not a healer. But, as a scientist, he recognized that you need to have a dependent variable to track this that is separate from the hypotheses being tested. All this stuff that psychoanalysts now prize as evidence of good treatment, Freud recognized as unreliable—the patient's insight, increased self-awareness. That's all stuff that is shaped by the analyst/patient dialogue. Using it as an outcome criterion gets circular because you find what you believed to exist a priori.

Even when interesting new material comes to the fore, if the patient's symptoms are not changing, there's something wrong. Why do we have these twenty-year-long treatments during which the patient's life isn't really changing very much? The only way for an analyst to square that for himself or herself is to have outcome criteria other than symptom relief.

That's the fundamental issue. When you're no longer submitting your hypotheses to systematic empirical investigation then you can cling on the basis of conviction to any old method that you like that you get married to in your mind. 
RW: The term, symptom relief, which is bandied about in different ways, can you describe that more? Because it could be from, on one end, a narrow view of symptoms, meaning panic and depression, all the way out to meaning and life and relationships and satisfaction with relationships, expanded choices, a sense of self, which gets more abstract.
OR: Right, right. Well, that's a crucial question, Randy. What I mean by symptom is something about the way the patient functions, which bothers the patient, which leads the patient to be distressed, which the patient identifies as something troublesome. The patient decides, not the analyst. An analyst can decide that something is all screwed up about a patient. If the patient doesn't experience it as being screwed up, then it can't be treated. So, of course, depression, impotence, hand-washing compulsions, bridge phobias are symptoms. But, for example, somebody walks in and says, "I have not been able to maintain a romantic relationship in my life." That, per se, is not a symptom. That is a complaint that may indicate a direction that needs to be explored in order to identify a symptom. But the patient and the therapist need to understand what, if anything, it is about the way the patient operates that seems to have led to the inability to maintain a relationship. Is it, for example, that the woman who is complaining of this really has an anxiety that she won't be satisfactory to the kind of man she'd really like to be with? So she keeps picking guys that are sort of damaged goods—and then, lo and behold, she becomes unsatisfied with the relationship and has to dump him? If so, then that way of operating and that anxiety become her symptoms. So, not infrequently, the patient's view of what his or her symptoms are evolves in the treatment.

And, often enough it's really pretty straightforward. Somebody comes to see me because they're depressed—they don't want to get out of bed in the morning, they're not enjoying anything, they want to kill themselves. I don't care about how self-aware they get. All I care about is: Do they feel like getting up in the morning now? Are they enjoying things? Do they not want to kill themselves? I've seen too many treatments, my own and other people's, in which—what do they say?—greater choices, awareness, insight, and so on, has blossomed, and the symptoms have not been changed. And I have seen too many treatments in which the symptoms have changed and no self-awareness has arrived. The truth is that we're not really very clear on the mechanism of action of psychotherapy. And we're not going to get clear if we cling to received wisdom about what's supposed to be the mechanism of action.
RW: Certain research on psychotherapy outcomes has put change into three phases: First, symptom relief is the relief of symptoms, and change in the basic things, depression, mood, energy, panic, and so forth; second, increased coping, skills, where people are more resilient to face their problems the next time around and; third, personality or character change, transformation of the self, resolving underlying conflicts and wounds, the more amorphous abstract things. Certainly the latter are more difficult to measure. What do you make of all this?
OR: Symptom relief, that's something that can be measured independently of theories. I don't care what your theory is. If the patient wants to get up in the morning, that observation is not related to any theory. Coping mechanisms? Insight? How do we judge those, exactly? Who was complaining of them being absent? Those are all constructs by the therapist. If they turn out to be steps in a process that leads to symptom relief, fine. But, if not, and the patient's symptoms are gone, we have to consider that treatment has worked in a way we don't necessarily understand. Then it's time to ask: "Do we need to continue the treatment any longer?" If the patient says, "I don't know if I have enough coping mechanisms to make sure that these symptoms don't come back," the therapist can answer, "Well, let's see. Let's stop for the moment, and we'll find out how things go. Let's keep in touch about it…"
RW: Ok, certainly it’s easier to measure symptom changes compared to personality change, but I think strides have been made with coping and resilience, but that is debatable. Well, let’s take that a step further. Let’s think in terms of an analogy from physical illness, like a muscle problem or hurting your knee. I go to the physical therapist after I hurt my knee. They can give me some medication and tell me to ice it to reduce the swelling, some pain medication for the acute pain. But I haven’t built up the muscles around it. So I go to a sports medicine doc and physical therapy. They help stretch it out, give me some exercises, I lift some weights, and I build up the muscles around it to prevent re-injury. I can cope better, I am more resilient and I have learned some things as well.
OR: That's true. That's right. That's a very apt, I think, analogy, and it goes to the heart of the matter. The difference there is if you scrub your ACL (the anterior cruciate ligament) and you get arthroscopic surgery, and then you need to rehab and strengthen the quadratus muscle in order to stabilize the joint, there are objective measures that indicate whether that's happening. You know, it's how many leg presses you can do, how many repetitions, and so on.

If we had those kinds of measures about coping, resiliency, all the rest of it, we could do that in therapy. I mean, you're very to-the-point, Randy. Let's say I come to you, and we're just complaining about, "Hey, I don't, I can't maintain romantic relationships." You and I dig into it and we discover that actually I have a big performance anxiety, so I've been picking these ladies that I feel secure with but who are never going to satisfy me. And we get into this and we find out that my father was really a very overpowering figure and I never could live up to him. And now I feel a lot better about myself and I don't have the performance anxiety. Now, the question is: am I going to be in shape to deal with a relationship? And how do we judge? Well, should I keep being in treatment with you until you decide or I decide that? I mean we wait and we keep in touch and when I get into a relationship, or if I meet some lady that scares the shit out of me cause she's so hot, the heavy-hitter of the world, and I'm nervous and I can't ask her out, then I'm giving you a phone call. Well, if I do ask her out, and I feel like I'm stepping on my dick every time I talk to her, I'll give you a phone call.
VY: Someone might want to stay in treatment until they are in a relationship and are able to be in a successful relationship.
OR: That's right. Those are interesting judgment calls, Victor. And I don't think that it is so easy to decide, because sometimes, that's an extremely constructive game plan. And, other times, it's a hideout and making a career out of therapy. And how do you decide that? As long as that question is really on the therapist's mind and the therapist is not clinging to some kind of Procrustean bed that he is forcing on the client, that's fine with me. It's not like I'm saying this is a perfect and easy-to-apply system.
RW: Well, in grad school, we were trained fairly psychoanalytic, and it was rare that that…
OR: Which school?
RW: CSPP, Berkeley (California School of Professional Psychology, now in San Francisco). It was rare that in supervision, which was often psychoanalytic for the most part, that anybody would say, “You know, the patient is ready to go.” The client would come in, and say “I think I’m done” and the supervisor and therapist would think of ways of getting them to stay in therapy: “Maybe they should be in therapy longer, there are still some things to resolve” instead of “Well maybe, let’s talk about it. Let’s think about it.” We would jump to the ideas that it was a premature ending. Most of my colleagues reported the same thing when they went for their own therapy or analysis. We even had terms for it which still persist like dropouts, flight into health, and acting out, which was not always the case in retrospect. In group meetings, it seemed it always came to an assumption, that there was a resistance in the client and they did not know what they were talking about.
OR: That's right. That's exactly the point of view that I think has resulted in the demise of psychoanalysis.
VY: And, usually, it seemed, a successful therapist is seen as someone who is able to keep their patients, which has a mixed meaning as well.
OR: You bet. I don't nail my patient's feet to the floor as you can see but I don't have any problem keeping a full practice. There is a hilarious irony, because when you stick a straw into the patient's vein and continue to drink as long as you can, but they are not getting better, it becomes an ever more convoluted and unsuccessful way to do treatment and attract new referrals.
RW: How long do you mean? What is long for you may not be for someone else? We’re talking about an analyst who was seeing people four times a week for years versus many therapists who see people one time a week for much briefer periods.
OR: Well, first of all, I don't see anybody four times a week anymore—not for the reasons that analysts see people four times a week. Actually, the only people that I think need that kind of treatment are people who are very disturbed and/or in a crisis and need the contact. I see lots of people once a week, once every other week, whatever it is. And there's a huge range. I mean you read the book (Practical Psychoanalysis), there are people I see one session! And then, people who may come for years. But in terms of what Victor was saying, I think it's in batches, very often. In the book, I try to give some feeling for this. Somebody will be in treatment and it's sufficient unto the day and then they come back if they need to.
RW: I have heard it called intermittent therapy across the lifespan, a phrase I like. Freud spoke of analysis as interminable versus terminal in that he suggested people come back in for tune-ups.
OR: Yeah, or not.
RW: Or not, of course. I think the key to what you’re saying—to avoid becoming polarized between the question of people staying too long in therapy or not staying in therapy long enough—is that you focus on the dialogue between therapist and patient and taking the patient seriously, having the patient as a main player in the conversation. I think this shift of focus is profound in its implications.
OR: That's very true. I think that is right, Randy. But, when you do that, very few people don't stay in long enough. Impatience has not been a problem that therapists have suffered from, because, after all—think about it—it is correctable. If, indeed, somebody goes too soon, he or she can turn around and come back, whereas, if you keep somebody around too long, you can't give them back that time.
VY: Usually, the way I think of it with people I work with is not so much whether their symptoms are there or not, but are they benefiting in concrete ways from continuing to come? People can stay in therapy to make positive gains, as well as to get rid of problems.
OR: Yeah. Right. That becomes a semantic matter since you could also describe that from the point of view of what they feel unable to achieve. As long as it's the patient who makes that call. In other words, people certainly come for one purpose, hopefully achieve it, and develop other purposes—
so long as those are purposes relate to the patient's judgment about his or her own well-being and not some bill of goods that they're sold by the analyst based on the analyst's judgments or theories.
so long as those are purposes relate to the patient's judgment about his or her own well-being and not some bill of goods that they're sold by the analyst based on the analyst's judgments or theories.
RW: Let’s say there’s an idea that the analyst or therapist has about the patient from their own judgment. “So, you’re not depressed anymore, and you’ve developed a healthier relationship, but you haven’t really worked things out with your mother. And that’s really going to get in the way in the future.”
OR: I think the point here, for me, Randy, is I think that dialogue of that sort can be useful depending on how it's done. I think the question of this patient's state of well-being is fine for that to be a dialogue into which the therapist has input. I think that the kind of judgments that you're describing are, in the main like: "I see a dynamic issue with you. I see something psychological in you that isn't worked out. It's going to cause you trouble even if you don't feel like it's causing you trouble now." I think that's 99%-100% of the time bullshit.

I think if the analyst sees something that the patient appears to be denying or overlooking that pertains to the patient's state of well-being, that's fine. Here's a classic, right? Let's say the patient, in God's eye, is getting very uncomfortable because they're attracted to their therapist and they want to get the hell out of therapy because it's a very threatening situation. So, the patient says, "Well, I'm fine. I think it's time to quit now." And the therapist says, "Really? I mean, you know, it's true that when you came in you were washing your hands 200 times a day and now you're only washing them 100 times a day. But is that really a satisfactory outcome to you?" That's fine to say.

But, for the analyst to say, "You know, I think your conflicts over your homosexual feelings are unresolved and I'm not sure that you've really touched those yet." "And your relationship with your sister, you know, I don't think we've really gone into that sufficiently." The person is going, "What the hell can I tell you? You know, we're not that close, but it doesn't bother me." 
RW: This reminds me of a supervision I had in post-grad training. The supervisor told me, “You’ve got to assign some homework to this patient, a reading assignment about what is going on with her.” And I’m all for homework when it fits the patient and makes sense so I talked to the patient about it. She was hesitant but agreed to do it. She came back the next week saying she had not done it and was not really into it. My supervisor said with exasperation, “She’s being resistant. She’s not following the treatment plan and she is being non-compliant. So, you’ve got to go in and tell her this, it’s a real problem.” And I did this, foolishly. The client was just beside herself: “Well, I didn’t want to read that book. I didn’t think it would be helpful. I looked at it. I didn’t like it.” And I pursued it. The client quit therapy. My supervisor was no help saying okay, so be it. She ended up writing me this brilliant letter criticizing what I had done. I called an old supervisor, Sohan Sharma, a wonderful psychologist, mentor and friend, who said, “She’s right on everything she said. You’re putting your stuff on her, you should call her and tell her.” I called the patient back, admitted everything.
OR: And you apologized to her.
RW: Yes, and she called me in a few weeks, came back in and we ended up having another good round of therapy which was much more beneficial for her.
OR: Yeah. Good. I agree. You know, I need not tell you what has been pointed out so many times by so many people.
The concept of resistance is itself flawed because of that problem. The concept of resistance presupposes that the therapist has a superior knowledge of what is going to be good for the patient, that trumps the patient—which is disastrous—rather than constantly negotiated for the best in a dialogue between patient and therapist.
The concept of resistance is itself flawed because of that problem. The concept of resistance presupposes that the therapist has a superior knowledge of what is going to be good for the patient, that trumps the patient—which is disastrous—rather than constantly negotiated for the best in a dialogue between patient and therapist. A therapist may have brilliant ideas and have a lot of expertise but it is one contribution to the dialogue. You know, as you've pointed out, the crucial thing is that it is, after all, it is the patient's treatment, and that the patient's voice must be given full authority. The concept of resistance essentially already, from the get-go, denies that.

What makes it Practical Psychoanalysis?

RW: You have made it a point to say that psychoanalysis should not be defined by its techniques, but a way of looking and understanding people, and indeed you are quite critical of the traditional analytic approach to the relationship with the patient.
OR: The concept of analytic neutrality, or anonymity, the use of the couch, free association. These are all tools, all techniques. And their validity, or their utility, should be measured by their ability to produce effective treatment. Once you don't have a scientifically honest methodology, a way of evaluating treatment, then you can perpetuate this stuff and convince yourself that it's very important and the basis of treatment; that is what goes on at psychoanalytic institutes. The reality is that that stuff doesn't work, which is why people don't come for psychoanalysis worldwide; it is a movement that is in decline. And when they do come to analysts, many analysts don't practice what they're taught in the institutes. They do what's known as psychotherapy. These theories of psychoanalysis actually don't work. That's what is going on.
VY: So in your approach you are not only distinguishing from traditional psychoanalysis, but also from much of traditional psychotherapy, in terms of some of your egalitarian ideas.
OR: Yes, I think that that's true, Victor. One way we can look at it, and you might ask, why did I, hey, hey look at these guys [seeing the window washers out the 9th floor window], why did I call the book Practical Psychoanalysis? Well, what's psychoanalytic about it? One of the distinguishing features of psychoanalysis historically, and it has remained true, is that it is a treatment method that places a priority upon the most thorough and searching examination of the treatment relationship itself. Cognitive-behavioral therapy, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, are interesting and very useful treatment methods. They have protocols and methods that are applied to the treatment that the patient is asked to comply with. And, at least in principle, it's not a negotiation. Now, in fact, if you look closely at it, the way it's applied and the way it's done, the best of these therapists do, in fact, practice in a flexible way.

Yogi Berra is reputed to have said, "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is."
Yogi Berra is reputed to have said, "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is." In practice, many of these therapists and analysts, in fact, are very sensitive to the relationship, and are very interested in the patient's input, and don't just try to override it, and do take it into account. But, as you say, those therapies, in the theory of treatment, do not allow for the patient determining, in a lot of ways, how you're going to proceed—that there is a priori a way to proceed that is understood by the therapist. That, of course, is a killing flaw in traditional psychoanalysis. Because the way to proceed that is in the theory, it's not only that it's doctrinaire, but it's also not a particularly good way to proceed.
RW: Well, the difference between the analyzing the transference from on high versus it being part of the dialogue, part of the relationship, which you encourage, is quite different.
OR: Analyzing the transference suggests that you can somehow separate yourself from what's taking place and identify what is going on inside the patient, and that is a presumptuous error. If I come to see you as a therapist and I find you overbearing and critical, and you feel like, "Come on. I like this guy, and I'm just trying to be nice to him." And you say to me, "You're experiencing me like your father. You're hearing perfectly innocent remarks that I make as putdowns of you, 'cause that's what your father did to you." That's called analyzing the transference.

Now, in reality, all we can decide is: does that interpretation on your part help me? Do I then find myself more comfortable with you? Am I not getting into arguments with my boss at work? It's not like that establishes, in fact, the truth that you weren't putting me down and I only experienced this because of my father. Who the hell knows? You could have been putting me down. You could have been competitive with me in subtle ways that you were unaware of.
VY: How would you be more likely to articulate your feelings in a situation like that?
OR: Well, the difference between the way I would articulate them, and the way the traditional psychoanalyst would articulate them, is that it would be abundantly clear to the patient that I was only expressing an opinion. I might say to the patient something like, "You know, I gotta tell you, my experience of it is that I don't feel like I'm critical of you. In fact, I like you. I mean it's always possible that I'm being competitive or something in some way I don't understand—but my experience of it is that you're really hypersensitive here. Unless I'm outright telling you you're great, then you feel like I'm looking to put you down. Now, that's my experience of this. And I can't help but think that you're expecting me to be the way you describe your father having been." That's the distinction; it's not necessarily that I wouldn't be looking for what we could call transference.
I would recognize that transference is not something that can be definitively identified and separated from the relationship; it is a hypothesis based on one subjective person offered to another subjective person.
I would recognize that transference is not something that can be definitively identified and separated from the relationship; it is a hypothesis based on one subjective person offered to another subjective person.
VY: A couple of differences I hear between that and a more traditional analytic interpretation is that you are stating it as a hypothesis, emphasizing my experience, not the definitive experience.
OR: That's right.
VY: And you’re also willing to share, “Hey, I like you.”
OR: Yes. Those are two very crucial differences that bear upon a number of the concepts that Randy alluded to before that are traditional psychoanalytic concepts, neutrality and anonymity, the whole position of objectivity. Those are all called into question through exactly what you put your finger on.

Playing your cards face-up

RW: One point related to what you are saying, it’s a quote from your book Practical Psychoanalysis, which I’m sure you know.
OR: Let's hope so.
RW: You’re talking about playing your cards face-up and subjectivity: “The only thing an analyst really has to offer, and the only thing a patient can really use, is an analyst’s account of his or her experience—especially an analyst’s account of his or her experience of the events of the treatment.”
OR: Yes that's very apropos. That's bears exactly on what Victor was just talking about. That's what it means. That's why you say, "This is how I feel about your experience of me as critical of you. It's that my experience is different from yours. I'm offering you my experience. The traditional analyst says, "You are distorting reality. You are seeing me as critical, when I'm not. I'm the arbiter of reality, and therefore free of distortions." And, by the way, this is a critique that is shared by many analysts and therapists, although I think there's a lot people who even make the critique and yet don't follow through on it and take it to its ultimate implication in their technique.

The therapist has no right to say, "I'm not criticizing you. That's a distortion of reality." The therapist can only say, "Well, let me tell you what my experience of this situation is. From my point of view, I experience it totally differently than you do."
VY: From your writing, you’re saying not only is it important to phrase it this way if you make a process comment, or a comment about the relationship, but that it is fundamental to the therapy.
OR: Yes.
VY: Everyone says, yes, the therapeutic relationship is important. Research has shown that out. But I think it’s still fairly radical or not fully understood how to really work in the here-and-now in a way that is central to the therapy.
OR: I agree with that. I agree completely with that.
VY: Can you summarize how you see the therapeutic relationship being central to the therapy in terms of the goals of therapy—symptom-relief?
OR: It is an omnibus question since it touches on so many issues. I think it is the ultimate question. Let's take one example. There is a traditional concept of analytic anonymity that says, I, the analyst am not going to tell you, the patient, how I experience anything because you need a blank screen upon which to project yourself.
Well, the typical contemporary analyst says, "No, no, no, no, no, no—we realize that it's not a process of projecting onto a blank screen." Meanwhile, they're still, to a great extent, reluctant to be revealing.
Well, the typical contemporary analyst says, "No, no, no, no, no, no—we realize that it's not a process of projecting onto a blank screen." Meanwhile, they're still, to a great extent, reluctant to be revealing. They worry about it, "Yeah, I'm not a blank screen, but how much should I reveal? I don't know. I don't know."

Whereas, as you say, if you really look at it as a dialogue, then self-revelation is not the issue. Reveal whatever the hell seems appropriate to reveal. Categorically, self-revelation is not a problem. It doesn't mean you free associate. It doesn't mean you walk in and the patient goes, "Hi, how are you doing?" And you answer, "Oh man, you can't believe what happened to me this morning on the way to work." The same rules apply as any ordinary conversation. You say what you think is useful. You ask about self-revelation, and how that relates to the goal of symptom relief. There's a mediating step there in our understanding and that has to be addressed. I mean, namely, how does treatment achieve symptom relief?
RW: Yes, how does it?
OR: In order to say how a particular technique contributes, we have to ask, well, what is the mechanism of action of therapy? And I think I have to say this at the onset that I think we should regard this matter as a work in progress. I would say, to my mind, on of the most important concepts we have, and I try to touch upon this in the book, is that of a corrective emotional experience. So that, one answer to your question, if the treatment works by actually providing for the patient salutary experiences with the therapist, whether these are recognized and discussed explicitly or not, then we need to create conditions in which these experiences are most likely to happen. And, if the encounter is an encounter between two subjective individuals, then
the best prospects for negotiation of the corrective emotional experience occur when the subjectivity of the therapist and the patient is, as far as possible, placed in the center of the table for examination, so that running repairs can be made. To the extent that the analyst retreats to a position of pre-ordained authority, the analyst is not available to negotiation.
the best prospects for negotiation of the corrective emotional experience occur when the subjectivity of the therapist and the patient is, as far as possible, placed in the center of the table for examination, so that running repairs can be made. To the extent that the analyst retreats to a position of pre-ordained authority, the analyst is not available to negotiation. It diminishes the likelihood that they will be able to negotiate a corrective emotional experience. I would say that is one way of thinking about how what we're talking about contributes to symptom relief.

Turning it upside down: Therapist self-disclosure

RW: Let’s talk more about the items you talked about earlier, therapist self-disclosure, for one. A lot of people think there is some room for that. And then the question is: what, when, and how much? But you take the position that advocates much more self-disclosure about your own subjective experience of the treatment. What guides you? And can you give any examples of how that works?
OR: You know, Randy, this is an issue that really comes up only because of traditional psychoanalytic theory, which touted analytic anonymity.
RW: The blank screen, the anonymous analyst.
OR: Yes. Otherwise, the answers to the questions would be obvious. I tried to take this up in the book. Actually, I would say two things that bear on your question. One is that the relationship between therapist and patient, in many ways, is no different than any other relationship. In fact, the whole idea to make it precious and special is really very destructive and takes it away from its utility. What makes the therapeutic relationship distinctive is that the patient is asked to pledge to an unusual degree candor. Well, if you're going to expect that from the patient, the best way to help that happen is for the therapist to be equally candid.

The other thing that can be said about self-revelation by the therapist is that the guidelines are not matters of analytic technique; they're matters of common sense. In other words, I may arrive to the therapy session being really annoyed with my wife. I'm not going to start telling the patient about that, because it's not to the purpose. Or a woman patient may walk in and she may look sensational. I may not tell her that she's looking hot. Why? Because I calculate that the effect of the remark is likely to be one that I would not like to have happen. These are common-sense judgments.
VY: Some common sense should be part of what determines it, as well as tact.
OR: Right. That's right. It's not a technical rule. The other thing I have said in the book is about what to do when you reach an impasse in treatment. I know there are all kinds of reasons for impasses and it's not one-size-fits-all. But if there is any generalization that could be made about working with impasses, in my opinion, it is that the situation could benefit from the therapist being as candid as possible and turning all his cards face-up. I gave some examples of that in the book.
RW: Can you give us one now?
OR: Yes. There was one patient—I was really pissed off at him. He had two previous treatments that ended disastrously. He was really dishonest and slippery, and couldn't get pinned down about anything. And he would lie and double back on himself and bullshit. That was ultimately very frustrating for the therapists he saw. When the therapists would try and pin him down he would get into a fight with the therapist instead of seeing that the therapist was trying to help him see about, how he was operating in his life. And after awhile, I'd finally had it with him about that too. I told him he was really getting' up my nose and he kept coming back to me with, "We'll you're being narcissistic?" I said, "Maybe. But I don't think it's our main problem."
RW: That’s a separate issue. (laughter)
OR: It may be, what can I tell you man?! Ultimately, it wound up very well, because he felt like as long as I was swallowing that stuff and trying to keep it out, he knew I was not being authentic.
RW: You were just BS-ing him as well, so to speak, until you began telling him how he was affecting you.
OR: That's right. In essence, that's right. In terms of what Victor said, there is tact.
VY: One obvious difference in a therapeutic relationship is that in other relationships you’re out there trying to get your needs met in addition to being sensitive to others. Whereas the primary focus as a therapist is the patient.
OR: Oh, that's absolutely right. That is of fundamental importance, that the therapeutic relationship is for the benefit of the patient. And that it's the therapist's duty to try and keep his or her needs subordinate to that. Absolutely.
RW: At the same time, attend to your own feelings. For example, traditionally, countertransference is seen to be something you notice, it is the therapist’s own feelings triggered from the patient, from your life, your past, buttons pushed, and so forth. You try to analyze yourself, or with your colleagues, your supervisor, consultants, and keep it out of the work. Some of it may be helpful and help you understand something about the patient. But, for the most part, you don’t share much of it. You’re turning that upside down and saying, “Sure, keep your junk out…”
OR: To the extent you can, yes.
RW: To the extent you can, keep your junk out, but also, that not sharing yourself in the therapy may very well be hurting the therapy.
OR: That's right. And you gotta be very careful, because it's very difficult to keep your junk completely out of the therapy.
RW: Okay.
OR: So if your junk is in there, when it gets in the therapy, then you gotta cop to it. You gotta be aware of the fact that your junk can always be getting in, in ways that you would not prefer, in ways you're not readily aware of, and cop to that. As you did with your patient, Randy.
It was, as it goes, rather innocent junk, it was misdemeanor junk, you were obeying the orders of your supervisor and doing a dumb thing.
It was, as it goes, rather innocent junk, it was misdemeanor junk, you were obeying the orders of your supervisor and doing a dumb thing. And eventually you call the patient up and brought her back and say, "Hey, look, I'm sorry. I did a dumb thing, it was a mistake." In many little ways, that happens all the time.

In the example Randy was asking about before —and there are many examples in the book about this— "Look, I'm not aware of being competitive. What can I tell you? I understand your point, but I don't think I'm being competitive with you. You know, maybe I'd be the last to know." You gotta acknowledge that possibility. That's another aspect of what's called countertransference. The problem of countertransference as a concept is the same as the problem of transference. It implies that there are personal aspects of the therapist's relationship that can somehow be identified and separated from the non-countertransferential aspects of the therapist's functioning, which can then be left relatively countertransference-free. In reality, every moment of every session, and everything that the therapist does is saturated in what we call countertransference. That has to be taken into account in our principles of technique. 
VY: Back to my question a while ago, the purpose of this intense examination of the therapist-client relationship is a corrective emotional experience. And, I guess, another way to think about it is it’s a corrective interpersonal experience.
OR: Yes. Right. It's a vehicle for the corrective experience. As we've been saying, Victor, I mean it's for the patient, so it's the patient's experience and the benefit that accrues from it that counts. But the vehicle for that is certainly, as many people have recognized, the relationship. I'm not advancing this concept of the mechanism of action of therapy as a perfected and all-inclusive formulation. I think we should regard this problem of understanding how therapy works and what kind of technique is going to optimize therapy working as a work in progress.
VY: I think you’ll agree that many therapists, not only analytically trained but therapists trained in other orientations as well, have great difficulty in really working in a transparent, here-and-now fashion.
OR: Well, do you mean, why is that?
VY: Do you think it’s true and why?
OR: Yes, I think it's definitely true. I think that there are, in broad strokes, two kinds of reasons. One is you cannot overemphasize the influence of what has been taught—that whole misguided idea of the therapist's objectivity—and still is taught.
Even though there are disclaimers and caveats issued, that dogma is still a tremendous influence and impediment to effective work with patients.
Even though there are disclaimers and caveats issued, that dogma is still a tremendous influence and impediment to effective work with patients. It's like Catholics who claim to no longer be believers and practitioners. At the same time, come Friday, "Man, I don't think we should have the roast beef. I think it would be nice if we had some salmon, you know." (laughter all around)

The other thing, and maybe the more important thing, is that to really get in there with a patient is a perilous business. You're presenting yourself as somebody who can be helpful and you're charging money for that. Now, that means you gotta deliver. It's very threatening to feel like you might not be able to deliver. Traditionally, one way of protecting yourself against that threat is to retreat to a position in which your accountability is diminished, and in which you are personally not so exposed. You've got a group of people, therapists and analysts, who have their own struggles, and undertaking a task, which, in principle, requires a great deal of personal courage and skill. 
RW: Well, maybe, until a person becomes self-aware enough, you have to be a little more careful about what is shared of a personal nature. And that is one of the growth things in therapists, becoming self-aware, self-reflective—as much as possible. So that when you do share more, you can own your own stuff, you can speak for yourself. Speaking for yourself as a person, let alone as a therapist, I think, is an accomplishment that takes work.
OR: Truly. But it doesn't work to begin by being anonymous. I mean you don't get better, you don't learn to swim outside the water. You learn to swim in the water by trying your best.

Flying blind and the corrective emotional experience

RW: In your book, you emphasize that we don’t know everything that is going on within the patient, that we can’t have a total plan: “As far as the corrective emotional experiences are concerned, an analyst never knows ahead of time exactly where he or she needs to go or how to get there. In that sense, an analyst is always flying blind.” Can you say what you mean by flying blind and give an example?
OR: Flying blind, that you don't know where you are going in the terms that we have just been discussing. If you hypothesize that the purpose of the treatment is to provide corrective emotional experiences for the patient, you don't know what they consist of. The term corrective emotional experience fell out of favor and has gotten a bad rap. Alexander and French were the first to promote the concept, and, later, Hal Sampson and Joe Weiss, in Control Mastery theory. Control Mastery is sort of a derivative of the corrective emotional experience and there are many great things about it. They agree that the purpose of therapy is to provide a corrective emotional experience for the patient. But the problem with those approaches was they went an extra step and diagnose what kind of corrective emotional experience is required, and then attempt to provide it. Alexander and French did this in a very rudimentary way, and Hal and Joe in a much more sophisticated way. But both approaches suffer from the same problems, which are, number one, that to think that you cannot fly blind, and think that you can diagnose what kind of core issue the patient is facing: "Your father was very cold to you, so I'm going to be warmer in each session".
RW: Or “If you have a fear of abandonment, I’m not going to abandon you.” But deciding it a priori is your point, right?
OR: Deciding it period. The therapist deciding it is presumptuous. A priori, or three-quarters of the way into the treatment, it's a presumption. That's one problem. And, then, the therapist providing it is an artificial. Therapist role-playing it is an inauthentic, disingenuous thing. And, by the way, analysts recognize that. That's why Alexander and French's ideas were originally dismissed. Too bad 'cause they had a very good theory of how things work. The proposed technique was not so great. So we need to have the theory which takes into account that there is no way of knowing, that the therapist does not decide what the patient needs. And there's no way to provide that that isn't artificial.

You have to find a way of bring it into dialogue, just what you were emphasizing before, Randy, of giving the patient full voice in working out with the therapist, conjointly, the treatment method. You gotta acknowledge that you're flying blind. Otherwise, you'll be presumptuous.
RW: Acknowledge to who, yourself, the client?
OR: Both. Obviously, if you don't acknowledge it to yourself, you won't acknowledge it to client.
RW: Obviously. (laughter)
OR: Well, but that's what happens. Even people who think they're acknowledging it may not be.
There's a lot of, "Yes, I believe, oh, I believe in the patient having a voice. Of course, anonymity is passé, we've given that up." But the patient says, "Do you have any kids?" and the therapist says, "Well, why are you asking that?"
There's a lot of, "Yes, I believe, oh, I believe in the patient having a voice. Of course, anonymity is passé, we've given that up." But the patient says, "Do you have any kids?" and the therapist says, "Well, why are you asking that?"
RW: “Why are you asking me if I am married? What would it mean if I was or wasn’t, and why are you asking?”
OR: "Have you ever been depressed? You're telling me about my depression and what you think. Have you ever been depressed?"
RW: You answer in a straightforward fashion?
OR: Sure. Now, if I get the feeling that the patient is just feasting off it for whatever reason and finding out about me, I say, "Listen, I don't understand what all this is and how this is helping you." Or, "I certainly hope you're not trying to be me—because I haven't told you about the other parts of my life yet." But, seriously, basically, yes, I answer them.
VY: It’s easier, in retrospect, to say when you were depressed in the past, and then you can talk about it. It’s hard while stuff is going on. What happens if you are going through a divorce, or you’re depressed right now? What do you say?
OR: Well, for example, I did go through a divorce while being a therapist, and as you can imagine, I had many patients that came in who knew I was going through a divorce and wanted to talk a great deal about it, and had ideas about it. It turned out differently with each patient that brought it up, but first of all, for example, I might say, "Well, look, I'm happy to tell you whatever is going to be useful. But I think we should think carefully about what that is. What would you like to know?" and I would tell them.

At a certain point, and this gets to another thing Randy mentioned before about your own junk and keeping it out. There are certain things that I decline to tell the patient, not for the patient's good, and I didn't hide behind it, but for my own reasons. A patient would say, "Well, why did you blah-blah-blah?" I'd say, "Look, that gets into my view of Lisby (my ex-wife) and she's not here to speak for herself. So, I don't really feel comfortable giving you my thoughts on that without her being there. I'm sorry. I understand I'm not saying that this is for your good." There may be limits about what, for example, you are willing to disclose to a patient that's got zip-all to do with the patient. You don't hide behind it and say, "Well, for the good of the treatment, I think."
RW: You are not advocating that you must reveal because you can reveal.
OR: Yes. "Look, I'm not going to tell you what my favorite sexual position is. I don't feel comfortable doing that. You know, it might be very helpful to you. I don't know. But I'm sorry, I'm not going to tell you." (laughter)
RW: In this era of the Internet and everything, therapists are freaked out—”Oh my God, they’ll know something about me!”

The much talked about APA plenary speech

RW: I know we don’t have much time but I want to get to a few more questions.
OR: Okay.
RW: I know you spoke at the plenary of the American Psychoanalytic Association meeting in 2003. This talk has been published in the journals and is widely referred to. You said what some consider to be challenging things about psychoanalysis and training. Yet, it has been reported to me by a friend in attendance that you received a five minute standing ovation and it was quite well-received. How do you make sense of this, you are a maverick and your ideas are well received, yet not necessarily accepted?
OR: There are a couple of things that I would say about that, candidly. First of all, these issues that I'm touching on, many analysts and therapist are very conflicted about them. They have questions, and they appreciate a chance to dialogue about them. And they're good people. Even people I disagree with fundamentally are very nice people. The other thing is I think, for myself, I'm not in this to put other people down and to say, "I'm smarter than you, and you're such a jerk." I've got a lot of friends that I disagree with completely about this stuff and I love those people!
RW: I have one last question. What do you enjoy most in your work with patients? And what keeps you alive and vital in your work?
OR: Oh man, it's been the same thing since day one, which is the whole reason I began as a therapist and became an analyst: If I can help people. You know, despite these treatments, I really wish I could have saved my mother.
To the extent that I could help anybody who comes in feeling terrible and walk out feeling great, it makes my day. And that's what I'm in business to do. So, that's what I love.
To the extent that I could help anybody who comes in feeling terrible and walk out feeling great, it makes my day. And that's what I'm in business to do. So, that's what I love. That's what it's all about. That's why I continue to work. I mean I'm not that interested in speaking any more, and I'm not that interested in writing anymore. But what I do, and will do as long as I am able, is work with patients. That's what keeps me going. Helping others in therapy, that's always been the engine for me. And that's it, still. So, gotta go guys. Thank you very much for taking the time.
RW: Well, thank you Owen.
VY: Thank you.
OR: Oh, yeah, a pleasure! Say hi to your dad. I haven't seen him in a while.
VY: Alright.

Peter Levine on Somatic Experiencing

An Unconscious Image

Victor Yalom: So Peter, you’ve spent most of your life working with trauma and traumatized patients, and have developed an approach called Somatic Experiencing® that focuses on including, and putting emphasis, on the physiological aspects of trauma. You believe that working with the trauma through the body is necessary to any trauma resolution and a required step before addressing emotional and cognitive issues. We’ll get into this in more detail, but let’s first start with: What got you there? How did you get interested in trauma in the first place?
Peter Levine: My career began somewhat accidentally. In the 1960s I started a practice in the fledgling field of mind-body healing. Around that time it was completely in its infancy. I had been developing a protocol to use body awareness as a tool for stress reduction. I would teach people how to relax different parts of their body and they would have a very deep relaxation that was much deeper than I had expected. And so I was referred a patient—I’ll use the name Nancy—by a psychiatrist, and she had been suffering from a host of physical symptoms including migraines, severe PMS, what would now be called fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue, pain in most of her body. And the psychiatrist reasoned that if I could help her with some of my relaxation techniques, it could help with her anxiety or at least with her pain.
VY: Now, were you a psychologist at that point, Peter?
PL: At that time I was finishing a degree in medical biophysics. And again, there was not a field of bodywork at that time, but I had met some influential people including Ida Rolf and Fritz Perls, and I was hanging out at Esalen—I took a leave of absence—and that’s where I really got exposed to these different mind-body approaches.
VY: And this was a heyday where all sorts of things and discoveries were happening?
PL: Crazy stuff. Yeah, exactly. It was both exciting and a chaotic free-for-all in some ways. So anyhow, this psychiatrist sent this woman, Nancy, to see me, and she was extremely anxious. And she was with her husband because she couldn’t go out of the house alone. She had, again what would be called now, severe agoraphobia. So anyhow, she came into my office and I noticed her heart rate was really quite high—it was probably about 90, 100 beats per minute. So I did some work with her breathing and then with the tension in her neck. And her heart rate started to go down. And I thought, “Oh, okay, this is great.” And it went down and then all of a sudden, it shot up to, I don’t know, 140-150 beats per minute. I could see this from her carotid pulse.
VY: Not what you were going after.
PL: Not exactly. I had gone from success to abject failure and, really, fear of putting her into extreme panic attack. So I said something, probably the most stupid thing anybody could say. I said something like, “Nancy, just relax. You need to relax.” And her heart rate started going down. And it went down and down and down. And it went to a very low level, probably in the mid-50s. And she looked at me. She turned white, and she looked at me, and she said, “I’m dying, I’m dying. Doctor, don’t let me die. Help me, help me, help me.” And at that moment of stress, I kind of was prompted by an unconscious image, a vision of a tiger crouching at the other side of the room and getting ready to spring. And I said, “Nancy, Nancy, there’s a tiger, a tiger’s chasing you. Run, climb those rocks, and escape.”
VY: And this was just a spontaneous kind of image that came from your imagination or unconscious?
PL: This was a spontaneous image. My unconscious. Yeah, because I had really, truly no idea what to do. I was in a state of, well, near panic myself. So to my amazement, to both of our amazement, her legs started moving as though she were running. And her whole body started to shake and to tremble. And this occurred in waves. And she went from being very very hot to extremely cold. Her fingers turned almost blue. And the shaking and the trembling and the waves of coldness and heat went on for almost 30-40 minutes, maybe. And after that, her breathing was free and spontaneous. She opened her eyes and she looked at me and she said, “Do you want to know what happened, Doctor? Do you want to know what happened to me?” And I said, “Yes, please.”This was one of the first patients. This was certainly the first one where something like this had happened. I worked with a lot of people in getting them to relax, and there were some kinds of things like that, but never anything nearly as dramatic. So anyhow, she reported how during the session she remembered a long forgotten event: as a four year old child, she was given ether for a tonsillectomy—at that time, ether was routinely used for tonsillectomies—and she remembered feeling suffocated and completely overpowered by the doctors and nurses who were holding her down to put on the ether mask while she was trying to scream and get away. As I discovered later, many people who had anxiety disorders had also had tonsillectomies as children with ether. So anyhow, that was the last panic attack that she had. And many of her symptoms abated. Others disappeared completely. We did a few sessions after that where I was actually able to do different relaxation procedures with different muscles and different parts of her body. So of course I was curious about the image—where did that come from?

Marie-Helene Yalom: The tiger image?

The Polyvagal Theory

Peter Levine: Yes, the tiger image. At that time, I was taking a graduate seminar, and some brief mention was made of a phenomenon called tonic immobility. If animals were physically restrained and frightened, they would go into a profoundly altered state of consciousness where they were frozen and immobilized, unable to move. And it turns out that this is one of the key survival features that animals use to protect themselves from threat—in this case from extreme threat. Actually there are three basic neural energy subsystems. These three systems underpin the overall state of the nervous system as well as the correlative behaviors and emotions, leading to three defensive strategies to threat.
MY: That’s the polyvagal theory developed by Stephen Porges?
PL: Yes. These systems are orchestrated by the primitive structures in our brainstem—the upper part of the brainstem. They’re instinctive and they’re almost reflexive. The tonic immobility is the most primitive system, and it spans probably over 500 million years. It is a combination of freezing and collapsing—the muscles go limp, the person is left without any energy. The next in evolutionary development is the sympathetic nervous system, the fight-or-flight response. And this system evolved from the reptilian period which was about 300 million years ago. And its function is enhanced action, and, as I said, fight-or-flight. Finally the third and most recent system is the social engagement system, and this occurs only in mammals. Its purpose is to drive social engagement—making friends—in order to defuse the aggression or tension.
VY: So this is when we’re feeling threatened or stressed we want to talk to our friends and family?
PL: Yeah, exactly. Or if somebody’s really angry at us, we want to explain what happened so they don’t strike out at us. Obviously most people won’t strike out, but we’re still hardwired for those kinds of expectations.
VY: Most people have a general sense of the fight-or-flight, but would you just say a few words on it?
PL: Basically, in the fight-or-flight response, the objective is to get away from the source of threat. All of our muscles prepare for this escape by increasing their tension level, our heart rate and respiration increase, and our whole basic metabolic system is flooded with adrenaline. Blood is diverted to the muscles, away from the viscera. The goal is to run away, or if we feel that we can’t escape or if we perceive that the individual that’s trying to attack us is less strong than we are, to attack them. Or if we’re cornered by a predator—in other words, if there’s no way to escape—then we’ll fight back. Now, if none of those procedures are effective, and it looks like we’re going to be killed, we go into the shock state, the tonic immobility. Now the key is that when people get into this immobility state, they do it in a state of fear. And as they come out of the immobility state, they also enter a state of fear, and actually a state in which they are prepared for what sometimes is called rage counterattack.
MY: Can you say more about that?
PL: For example, you see a cat chasing a mouse. The cat catches the mouse and has it in its paws, and the mouse goes into this immobility response. And sometimes you’ll actually see the cat bat the mouse around a little bit until it comes out of the immobility, because it wants the chase to go on. Now, what can happen is that the mouse, when it comes out of the immobility state, goes into what is called nondirective flight. It doesn’t even look for where it can run. It just runs as fast as it can in any direction. Sometimes that’s right into the cat. Other times, it will actually attack, in a counterattack of rage. I’ve actually seen a mouse who was captured by a cat come out of the immobility and attack the cat’s nose. The cat was so startled it remained there in that state while the mouse scurried away. When people come out of this immobility response, their potential for rage is so strong and the associated sensations are so intense that they are afraid of their own impulse to strike out and to defend themselves by killing the predator. Again, this all goes back to our animal heritage.So the key I found was in helping people come out of this immobility response without fear. Now, with Nancy, I was lucky. If it were not for that image, I could just as easily have retraumatized her. As a matter of fact, some of the therapies that were being developed around that time frequently retraumatized people. I think particularly of Arthur Janov’s Primal Therapy, where people would be yelling and screaming out, supposedly getting out all of their locked-in emotions, but a lot of times they were actually terrorizing themselves with the rage and then they would go back into a shutdown, and then be encouraged to “relive” another memory, and then this cycle would continue.

MY: It becomes addictive sometimes, right?
PL: That’s correct. It literally becomes addictive. And one of the reasons is that when you do these kinds of relivings, there’s a tremendous release of adrenaline. There’s also a release of endorphins, which is the brain’s internal opiate system. In animals, these endorphins allow the prey to go into a state of shock-analgesia and not feel the pain of being torn apart. When people relive the trauma, they recreate a similar neurochemical system that occurred at the time of the trauma, the release of adrenaline and endorphins. Now, adrenaline is addictive, it is like getting a speed high. And they get addicted not only to the adrenaline but to the endorphins; it’s like having a drug cocktail of amphetamines and morphine. So when I was at Esalen I actually noticed that people would come to these groups, they would yell and scream, tear a pillow apart that was their mother or their father, and they would feel high. They would feel really great. But then when they would come back a few weeks later, they would go through exactly the same thing again. And that’s what gave me a clue to the fact that this might be addictive.

Releasing Trauma from the Body

VY: So getting back to Nancy, from what you observed and what you learned from the animals’ various responses, what was your understanding of what happened with Nancy and what you did that was actually helpful?
PL: What was helpful is that her body learned that in that time of overwhelming threat she could not defend herself. She lost all of her power. Her muscles were all tight. She was struggling to get away—this was the flight response—to get out of that, to get away from those people who were holding her down and to run out of the room and back to her parents. I mean, that’s what her body wanted to do, her body needed to do—to get out of there and get back to where she could be protected. So what happened is all of this activation, this “energy” that was locked into her body when she was trying to escape and then was overwhelmed, was still there in a latent form. When we’re overwhelmed like that, the energy just doesn’t go away—it gets locked very deeply in the body. That’s the key. It gets locked in the muscles.
MY: And that’s the foundation of your understanding of trauma—this locking of energy?
PL: That’s right, exactly. How the energy, how this activation gets locked in the body and in the nervous system.
MY: And so your objective is to help the person release that energy?
PL: Yes, to release that energy, but also to re-channel that energy into an active response, so then the body has a response of power, of its own capacity to regulate, and the person comes out of this shutdown state into a process in which they re-own their own vital energy—we use the term “life energy.” It’s not generally used in psychology but I think it’s a term that is profound in people’s health, that people feel that they have the energy to live their life fully, and that they have the capacity to direct this energy in powerful and productive ways.
VY: Now obviously you’re just giving a snapshot of the case and we can’t capture the depth and the nuances of it. But someone who doesn’t know about this could think it sounds a little simplistic. This woman had a tonsillectomy decades ago, and you’re having this one session with her and somehow you’re freeing up some energy that was trapped back then. How would you respond to that?
PL: Well, it was simplistic, and of course I was to learn that one-time cures were not always the case. However, over the years I started to develop a systematic approach where the person could gradually access these energies and these body sensations—not all at once, but one little bit at a time. It’s a process that I call titration. I borrowed that term from chemistry. The image that I use is that of mixing an acid and a base together. If you put them together, there can be an explosion. But if you take it one drop at a time, there is a little fizzle and eventually the system neutralizes. Not only does it neutralize but after you do this titration a certain number of times, you get an end result of salt and water. So instead of having these toxic substances, you have the basic building blocks of life, I use this analogy to describe one of the techniques I use in my work with trauma patients.
You’re not actually exposing the person to a trauma—you’re restoring the responses that were overwhelmed, which is what led to the trauma in the first place.
VY: And you’re doing it very slowly, one little step at a time.
PL: Very slowly.
VY: Would you say that is the key?
PL: That’s the key. So you get a little bit of discharge, you get a little bit of a person’s body, like their hands and arms, feeling like they want to hold something away from them, that they want to push something away. So they feel that energy, that power into the muscles in their arms. If they want to run they feel the energy, the aliveness in their legs. The ideas are extremely simple, but the execution of them is much more complex. Actually we have a training program and the training program is a three-year program.

Working with an Iraq Vet

VY: I think this is really nicely demonstrated in the video that we’re just releasing at the time of this interview, where you demonstrate five sessions with Ray, who’s an Iraq vet, who was in an IED explosion. And when he first presents, his body is visibly twitching every few seconds, and you came up with an explanation that he’s actually trying to reorient himself to the original trauma, that he was never able to face the trauma.
PL: Yes, well, exactly. This was a young Marine. While he was on patrol two explosive devices blew up right near him and he was thrown into the air, and woke up two weeks later in Landstuhl, at the military hospital in Germany. Afterwards he was diagnosed with traumatic brain injury and PTSD and also Tourette syndrome, and this was, I think, because of this extreme twitching. You saw this kind of twitching, these neurological presentations in the World War I soldiers. Some of them could barely walk, and they were twitching and in near convulsion. And I think these people who are exposed to these bombs actually have similar presentations. But let’s go back to the day when he’s on patrol. The bomb blows up. Now what happens whenever there’s a loud sound is that it startles us, right? And we arrest what we’re doing and we try to localize that sound because that sound could be a threat. That’s something that’s hard-wired in our bodies. These responses were actually discovered by Pavlov in the 1920s. So there’s an explosion and what we do is we turn toward the source of the explosion.
VY: That’s how we know where it’s coming form.
PL: Exactly. And so what we do is we start to turn our eyes, our neck and head, turn towards that source to try to localize it. In Ray’s case, as soon as his eyes and head began to orient, in milliseconds, he was thrown up into the air and this defensive response, this orienting response became completely disorganized and kept repeating itself. It’s what many psychologists see in people who are perseverating. They’ll go over something…
VY: So your understanding of his constant visible twitching which presented in the first few sessions was that he was still trying to orient himself to the trauma. He’d never been able to complete that orienting response.
PL: Exactly. Because as soon as he began to orient, as soon there was that pre-motor impulse and before that orientation could be felt—much less executed—he was thrown into the air, and in the air his whole body was trying to say, “What can I do?” And so all of his muscles contracted together. Again, this is an archaic response that we’ve inherited from monkeys. For example, if a monkey falls out of a tree, its whole body flexes. And it does that to protect the vital organs. So in a situation like this, if we’re thrown into the air, or even with extreme startle, all the muscles in the front part of our body, the abdomen and the leg flexors and so forth, go into this protective response. So that also contributed to Ray’s symptoms, to his chronic pain, because his whole body was locked to protect himself from falling. And of course there were also many emotional issues, such as a tremendous amount of loss and survivor’s guilt—he saw many of his best friends killed—that grafted themselves onto the physical trauma.
VY: So in terms of titration that you were talking about, your goal initially in therapy, in the treatment, is to do what?
PL: The goal is to very gradually help him get in touch with the sensations that precede the twitching and that will eventually enable him to complete the orienting responses that were interrupted. It wouldn’t have worked if I had said: “We’re going to work on controlling the tics.” If you tell somebody with Tourette, for example, to not twitch, they may be able to control it for a while, and they do it generally, because in social situations they don’t want it to happen. But then the more they try to control it the more explosive it becomes. It is similar to glowing embers—if you blow on the embers, it ignites into a flame. So the key is to cool the embers before they ignite into flame. The flame is this convulsive response.This is a concept that exists in migraines or epilepsy. Before a seizure, a person experiences prodromal symptoms. So for example, before they get the migraine attack, they may see flickering lights or they may have a particular smell or a body sensation. And they know when they experience those symptoms that they will go into a seizure or a migraine or even an anxiety attack. I focus on something I call the pre-prodromal, because once the person experiences the prodromal, then they go into the attack, the paroxysm. So if you are able to get them to just feel before that—in the pre-prodomal stage, they can redirect that energy, and as they do so they begin to complete the orienting responses that were overwhelmed by the trauma. And in the video, you see Ray little by little begin to reestablish his orienting responses, and this triggers very profound sensations of cold and heat, coolness and warmth, tingling and relaxation.

MY: And that’s the energy being released.
PL: Yes, that’s the energy being released that’s shifting from one system to another.
VY: And you gradually help him to spread that energy, rather than just being in the neck or head, so he experiences it going through the rest of his body.
PL: Exactly, exactly. At first these sensations are only local, mostly in the head or the neck. Then as we do this repeated times, and you’ll see this is done several times in each of the first four sessions, gradually the convulsive reaction attenuates and then almost disappears. And in its place he feels pleasure in his body. I was able to invite him to Esalen at one of the workshops I give once a year titled “Awakening the Ordinary Miracle of Healing.” By then he had been able to resolve the physiological aspect of the trauma, he was able there to address the emotional aspects of it. Two things happened in that workshop. First of all, he dealt with the different emotions—his loss, his anger, and his guilt that he survived and that many of his comrades did not. But he was also able to reenter and engage with a group of people around feelings of goodness and of social engagement, of hunger for being able to relate to people in a non-aroused….
MY: In a nonviolent way.
PL: In a nonviolent way, exactly. And you see so many vets now—when they come back, they go into maybe not complete convulsions like he did, but into an exaggerated fight-flight-freeze response which can lead to attacks on their children or their spouses. And they do it in an involuntary way, and are helpless to change that. And unfortunately there’s little help available for these soldiers to resolve their trauma reactions and be able to reintegrate….

Emotional Processing with Trauma Survivors

MY: Peter, you talked about how it’s only in session five that Ray started expressing his emotions. You approach trauma in a very different way than most traditional psychotherapists would, where they would focus probably sooner on dealing with emotions.
PL: Yes.
MY: And you have strong feelings about that.
PL: Actually, what you are alluding to is the whole idea of bottom-up processing. So maybe let’s get back to that, okay? In top-down processing, which is normally what we do in psychotherapy, we talk about our problems, our symptoms, or our relationships. And then the therapist often tries to get the client to feel what they’re feeling when they talk about those kinds of things. Or they try to work with them to become more aware of their thoughts so that they can change their thoughts. In this model the language that you’re talking with the client is in the realm of symbols, of thoughts, of perceptions. The language of the emotions is the language of the emotional brain—the limbic system. And in order to change emotions, people have to be able to touch into the emotions, to express the emotions.In the case of trauma patients, we have a person who is locked in the fight-or-flight response and as I explained earlier in the Polyvagal theory, a person who is functioning primarily in the brainstem, and the language of the brainstem is the language of sensations. So if you are trying to help the person work with the core of the trauma response, you have to talk to that level of the nervous system.

MY: So what you’re saying is a person who has been traumatized cannot really process emotions if they are in the early stages after the trauma until they have dealt with their physiological traumatization.
PL: Right, until the person has dealt with and sufficiently resolved the physiological shock, they really can’t deal with the emotions because the emotions actually will throw them further back into the shock, if the emotions occur at all. Many of these people are so shut down that it’s very difficult to get at any emotion. But if some kind of therapy forces them into the emotions, that can have a deleterious effect. That can cause them to further withdraw into the immobility, into the shock reaction. So you have to dissolve the shock first.
VY: What you’re saying, though, flies in the face of most of conventional therapy, which goes straight for the emotions. Do you think that most therapies are actually not helpful, or is something else happening during that time?
PL: Many therapists are doing something different from what they think they’re doing. And if you’re working with emotions in a very titrated way, then you can actually go from the emotions to the sensation, and begin to resolve things at a sensation level. But therapies that really work to provoke emotions or the exposure therapies… I know that they do get some results, but I think that they can easily lead to retraumatization.
VY: How so?
PL: One of the things that Bessel van der Kolk showed when he first started to do trauma research with functional MRIs is that when people are in the trauma state, they actually shut down the frontal parts of their brain and particularly the area on the left cortex called Broca’s area, which is responsible for speech. When the person is in the traumatic state, those brain regions are literally shut down, they’re taken offline. When the therapist encourages the client to talk about their trauma, asking questions such as, “Okay, so this is what happened to you. Now, let’s talk about it,” or, “What are you feeling about that?” The client tries to talk about it. And if they try to talk about it, they become more activated. Their brainstem and limbic system go into a hyperaroused state, which in turns shuts down Broca’s area, so they really can’t express in words what’s going on. They feel more frustrated. Sometimes the therapist is pushing them more and more into the frustration. Eventually the person may have some kind of catharsis, but that kind of catharsis is due frequently to being overloaded and not being able to talk about it, being extremely frustrated. So in a sense, trauma precludes rationality.
MY: So what do you think is the hardest thing for traditional talk therapists to learn when dealing with trauma patients?

Experiencing the Body

PL: I think the most alien is to be able to work with body sensations. And again, because the overwhelm and the fight-or-flight are things that happen in the body, what I would say is the golden route is to be able to help people have experiences in the body that contradict those of the overwhelming helplessness. And my method is not the only way to do that. It’s certainly one of the most significant. But many therapists, for example, will recommend that their clients do things like yoga or martial arts.
MY: Or meditation?
PL: The thing about meditation, though…. With some kinds of trauma, meditation is helpful. But the problem is when people go into their inner landscape and they’re not prepared and they’re not guided, sooner or later they encounter the trauma, and then what do they do? They could be overwhelmed with it, or they find a way to go away from the trauma.
And they go sometimes into something that resembles a bliss state. But it’s really an ungrounded bliss state. I call that the bliss bypass. It’s a way of avoiding the trauma. It was very common in the ‘60s when people were taking all of these drugs, and a lot of these people were traumatized from their childhood. And what they would do is they would go into these kinds of dissociated states of bliss and different hallucinatory imageries, but in a way it was avoiding the trauma. So in a way the trauma became even a greater effect, and then often people would then wind up having bad trips in which they would go into the trauma but without the resources to work them through.
MY: I guess that’s what I find inspiring about your approach. Ultimately you really want to enable the traumatized person to regain their autonomy, not just find palliative methods of dealing with their trauma.
PL: Yes. One thing therapists are really good at, I think, is they’re good at helping people calm. We set up our offices so they’re conducive, so they’re friendly, they’re cheerful, there are things in the room that would evoke interest and curiosity. And many therapists can actually help calm the traumatized person. This is something that’s a necessary first step, but if it’s the only thing that happens, the clients become more and more dependent on the therapist to give them some sense of refuge, some sense of okayness. But when therapists are helping the clients get mastery of their sensations, of their power in their body, than they are truly helping them develop an authentic autonomy. And from the very beginning, the client is beginning to separate.So this is a gradual process, where the client really becomes authentically autonomous, authentically self-empowered. And if we don’t do this, the client tends to become more and more dependent on the therapist, and this is when you see these transferences where all of a sudden the client depends on the therapist for everything. At this point the therapist can go from being the god or the goddess up on this pedestal to being thrown down and the client having rage about the therapist for not helping them enough. So the key out of these conundrums is through self-empowerment, and I know of no more direct and effective way of doing this than through the body.

A Personal Experience of Trauma

MY: You use an accident that happened to you—you were hit by a car—and your own experience of trauma as a way to demonstrate some of the principles of Somatic Experiencing®. You describe how some people were helpful to you and some were not. It seems like a good example to illustrate what to pay attention to when interacting with a traumatized person. Would you say more about that?
PL: Actually I got a good dose of my own medicine. Thankfully. I was walking a crosswalk five or six years ago, and a teenage driver went through the stop sign. I didn’t see her because there was a large truck parked waiting at the stop sign and she didn’t see the stop sign and she was passing the truck. So she hit me at about 25 miles an hour, and I was splatted out on the pavement. And in shock, disoriented, I didn’t know what had happened. And at that moment, or probably shortly thereafter, an off-duty paramedic came and he sat by my side and said, “Don’t move.” Now remember how previously I was talking about Ray, and his orientation to the explosion when he heard the blast. Well, similarly my survival response is to orient towards where that command came from. But then he’s telling me, “Don’t move.”
MY: So it’s a contradiction.
PL: Exactly, it’s a complete contradiction. So I go into a freeze, into a panic. And at that moment, I dissociate from my body—it’s like I’m out of my body and I’m looking down and seeing this man kneeling by my side and seeing me in this frozen state. Of course, somebody called on their cell phone for an ambulance. But then after a little while, he kept asking me questions, and I was able to get enough orientation to say, “Please just give me time, I won’t move my neck,” and I didn’t want to answer questions about what my name was, where I was going, what the day was. I needed to collect myself, and all of those things were making things much worse. So I was able to set enough of a boundary to have him back off. Then miraculously, serendipitously, a woman came, much calmer, sat by my side, and she said, “I’m a doctor. I’m a pediatrician. Can I do anything?” And I said, “Please just sit here by my side.” And she touched my hand with her hand, and we folded our hands together.
VY: She worked with kids so she probably knew how to calm children down.
PL: Exactly. And that’s what we need when we’re traumatized. We need that kind of direct contact where we know somebody is protecting us. Because when we’re in trauma, we go back to a pretty infantile state of feeling completely unprotected. So it was really, really important, and I know I couldn’t have done what I did without her being there. I could have done some of it, but her presence really was very important. And then what I was able to do was recollect myself. I was actually able to experience being hit by the car, being thrown in the air, how my arms and hands went out to protect myself first from the window of the car, and then protect my head from getting smashed on the road.
MY: When you say experience, do you mean mentally, or do you mean literally by moving your arms?
PL: I literally experienced my arms as though they were moving. I mean, you could barely see it. These are what are called micro-movements. But as I felt that, I felt that instead of my body becoming limp, I started to get more strength in my body. As I started to get more strength in my body, my physiological systems started normalizing. When the guy first took my blood pressure it was about 170, and my heart rate was 100 beats per minute. When I was in the ambulance, by re-experiencing those movements and letting my body shake and tremble and feel the different emotions—one was the rage at this woman, the desire to kill this girl—I was again able to ground these feelings in my body. That was the key. I could ground them in my body. And by doing this, my heart rate and blood pressure went to a normal level when I was in the ambulance—it dropped to 120/72.
MY: And you said to the paramedic “Thank God, I won’t be getting PTSD.”
PL: There was actually some research done in Israel with people who went into the emergency room. Of course, everybody’s heart rate and blood pressure is recorded. And people who had a normal heart rate and blood pressure when they left had a very low likelihood of developing PTSD. Those who left with a high heart rate and blood pressure were very likely to develop PTSD.
MY: So what caused some of them to leave with a lower heart rate versus high?
PL: Well, that’s hard to know, and unfortunately this wasn’t studied. It could have been that somebody there actually helped them calm down, saying things like, “It’s okay, I’m here to help you, we’re going to take care of you, we’re going to help you.” I mean, I don’t know that. That’s a guess. These people may have been more resilient; the other people may have had more trauma. These variables weren’t controlled for. But the basic idea is that if we’re able to reset our physiological system, able to reset our nervous system, then we don’t develop the symptoms of trauma. That’s a little bit of oversimplification, because some people, instead of going into the sympathetic response, go into the shutdown state more directly. That’s a little bit more complicated. But in my case, by being able to reestablish that my body knew what to do—to protect itself—I&allowed my body to come back into present time, to re-orient and to get through this unscarred. And I’m sure if I hadn’t been able to do that, I would have been highly traumatized from that event. I have no question about that.
VY: You mention in the ambulance trembling and shaking. What’s the significance of that?
PL: That was similar to what I described with Nancy, my first client. The shaking and trembling has to do with the resetting of the autonomic nervous system. I was so curious about this that I interviewed a number of people who work with capturing animals and releasing them into the wild. And they described to me very much the kinds of shaking and trembling that I see with my clients and that happened to me. A number of these folks said that they knew that if the animals didn’t go through this kind of shaking and trembling when they were captured and put in cages, they were less likely to survive when released into the wild. So it appears to be a way in which the physiological autonomic nervous system resets itself. Very often this shaking and trembling can be so minute that you barely perceive it from the outside. And the client or the person experiencing it, experiences it in a very subtle, nonthreatening way. As a matter of fact, after a short period of time, they often experience it as being pleasurable. Exactly what it is, we don’t know, but again, I’ve talked to Stephen Porges, who is probably the preeminent psychophysiologist working with these kinds of nervous system states, and it does appear that this occurs as the autonomic nervous system shifts, particularly out of the shutdown states into the mobilization states and then into the social engagement states. So it’s something that goes on as the nervous system comes out of shock.

PTSD & Medication

MY: Peter, you mentioned PTSD earlier. You’ve worked with numerous clients who had PTSD. Many of them heavily medicated. Has there been any research done about the impact of somatic therapies versus medication, and what is your experience of the effect of medication in cases of PTSD?
PL: Well, first of all, I’m not against medication.
MY: Sure. And actually, Ray is taking quite a lot.
PL: He was. But he felt like he was just completely blotted out. He was put on an antipsychotic medication and antidepressant medication. Medications that help stabilize clients enough so that you can begin to access and work with them can be important. For example, the SSRIs are sometimes helpful in that regard. However, with many of these people, most of the SSRIs are so activating that it actually makes things worse. But if it works, if it helps a person even a small percentage, that can be of real value.Benzodiazepines, which are often prescribed, in my experience, interfere with the healing process. Some psychiatrists have prescribed very small doses of the atypical antipsychotic Seroquel to help PTSD people sleep. And that seems to be helpful, —because if the person can get some restorative sleep, then they can begin to process the trauma. But just drugs by themselves—the person will very often have to take the drug basically forever. There’s a saying: meds without skills don’t do the trick. So the key is for the person to be self-regulating.

Comparison to EMDR

VY: How would you compare Somatic Experiencing® from EMDR?
PL: Well, EMDR basically works with one technique. And actually, many of the people who have studied EMDR have trained with us, and vice versa as well. The key here, and nowadays I think EMDR is doing this more, is to reference things as sensations in the body. Again, I think without the body things are limited. It’s really, really key to work with the body, or to reference in the body. I do some work with the eyes, but I do it in a different way from the EMDR movement—it’s actually quite different. And EMDR has had research, and they have often had good results. We haven’t had the same kind of extensive research that EMDR has. My approach is a much older approach—I developed that in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s—but we haven’t had the extensive research.
VY: We’ve covered a wide span of your fascinating career. What’s exciting you now? What are you working on now?

Current Work

PL: I just completed two books on preventing trauma in kids—one for therapists and medical workers and teachers, and the other for parents. The one for parents is called Trauma-Proofing Your Kids: A Parents’ Guide to Instilling Confidence, Joy, and Resilience. And the book for therapists, teachers and medical people is called Trauma Through a Child’s Eyes. And then I am just in the process of completing my main work, really. It will be released in September. It’s called In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness. So those are my big projects right now, and I’m actually kind of under piles of chapters right now doing the final completion on that book.
MY: Do you still have time for patients?
PL: Not really. Most of my time is with teaching. I do see people… Occasionally people will come from out of town or out of the country and then I work with them for a few days, I do intensive work with them. But I don’t have any kind of a regular practice anymore.
MY: I have one more question for you, Peter. You were telling us before this interview that you are coming back from Esalen where you were teaching a group of therapists who were primarily talk therapists with little somatic therapy experience. And you said they were like kids. What was so exciting for them?
PL: Actually this is a class I teach with Bessel van der Kolk, and Bessel is one of the leading researchers in the field of trauma research. He’s done some of the main core studies in the neuroscience of trauma. He and I teach a workshop together every year. I think we’ve done it for ten years. In the group we had this time, there were about 60 to 65 people, and almost all of them were talk therapists of one kind or another. And it was really tremendously exciting and gratifying for both of us, for Bessel and me, and also of course for the students, for them to realize, “Oh my gosh, there’s a whole other universe beyond just using talk.” And I think we also gave them some simple tools that they could begin to incorporate into their conventional psychotherapy practice. And that’s another thing that we’re doing with my institute— programs for different kinds therapists where they don’t have to have full training for working with trauma, but they begin to get some simple tools that they can incorporate into whatever kind of therapy they do, whether it’s cognitive therapy, psychodynamic therapy…
MY: You think it works with most therapies?
PL: Yes. There’s no therapy that can’t be made better by referencing the body. Actually Eugene Gendlin, who coined the term “the felt sense” in his seminal book, Focusing, did his PhD thesis on what therapies worked best. And he found that there was very little correlation between whether a patient improved and what kind of therapy he had. So he said, “Well, maybe it’s the experience of the therapist.” Well, there was a small correlation. “Well, maybe it’s the relationship between the therapist and the client.” And again, there was a small correlation, but really nothing that explained why some clients really got well in therapy and others didn’t. And what he discovered was that the single variable that was the most robust was whether clients were able to reference different changes, different experiences they had in their bodies. So any kind of tools that therapists have to be able to help clients reference their body, and particularly to find the ways that their body experiences power and mastery, are going to dramatically inform the type of therapy they’re doing.

VY: Well, I understand that talk alone cannot heal all, but certainly our talk has been tremendously informative to us and hopefully to those who have a chance to read this. So thank you very much for taking the time to explain this all to us.
PL: Gladly. I hope it was of value.

Mardi Horowitz on Psychotherapy Research and Happiness

The Interview

Victor Yalom: You had the audacity to write a book entitled A Course in Happiness. I guess this begs the question: as a psychiatrist and therapist, do you really know something about happiness that’s teachable?
Mardi Horowitz: I think so. And it took me a few decades to feel that that was the case.
VY: Say more.
MH: Well, I have always had a philosophical bent; I studied Zen Buddhism in my early 20's.
VY: Before it was fashionable.
MH: Well, I think that was the start of the fashion–not with me, but with my teachers.
VY: I guess it’s been fashionable for thousands of years, but before it was fashionable in mainstream psychology.
MH: Then Suzuki and Erich Fromm wrote a book on psychoanalysis and Zen. I was also reading Freud at the time—I was reading Freud in high school—so my professors really directed me to the big questions of the human predicament. I'd also always been struck by the line in the Declaration of Independence: "the pursuit of happiness." I'd seen an earlier copy in Washington, D.C., and it said "the right to happiness." There's a little insertion there—probably it was Thomas Jefferson—"the pursuit of happiness." And I sort of pondered that: Well, how do you pursue it? That is, you can't have it—that was the idea. It was the journey, rather than the arrival, that might give you contentment.

That notion persists in my use of the word "course" in A Course in Happiness. It means two things. One: navigating. I'm a sailor, and the practice of sailing teaches you very quickly that you can't sail into the wind, even if that's where you want to go. So if you want to go to San Francisco from Sausalito, you have to hit the winds coming from San Francisco, which, fortunately, it rarely does. You can't just point to the Trans-America Pyramid to get there. You have to go back and forth. But you need to chart your course so you get there with the most economical and speedy means.

The second meaning of "course" is a course that's full of lesson plans and teaching points. My years professing and being a bit of a pedant, I think, have a practical payoff in that I know how psychotherapy trainees learn. And I think those lessons for psychotherapy clinicians, and those lessons learned by psychotherapy patients over a period of time, can be translated so that people can use them on their own if they have the motivation—hence A Course in Happiness.

VY: You’re a psychiatrist by training as well as a researcher, but also a therapist. We therapists tend to think we know techniques to help people explore things and understand themselves better, but I’m not sure we’re all on board with the idea that we actually have content to teach them.
MH: Yes. I'd say that's been the topic of my clinical research for my career—content can be determined using empirical research. For instance, my 1976 book, Stress Response Syndromes, laid out the information-processing model that then defined the symptoms that became the criteria for PTSD. It wasn't that people didn't know about those symptoms, but there were a variety of conflicting theories of what caused the symptoms. And by doing clinical, field and experimental studies, we could nail it down enough to settle the controversies.

So I think, by using empirical work, we can find that working clinicians agree on how contents change—that's the critical thing. How does the mind's narrative about self and others, for example, change in therapy so the person's able to make more reasonable plans?

That's not how psychotherapists are taught, however, and it took a few decades for me to learn how people learn to be psychotherapists. For example, a young teacher who's really bright and a good clinician will come in and tend to teach theory. Then the trainees will complain because they're not emotionally ready for the theory of how things work. They want to know, how do they even survive with their cases? They want to know how to do it right away. So I think we have to go with what people are motivated to learn. The first thing we teach people so they're less frightened when they're doing therapy—which is scary at first, as you know—is, "Borrow from me these techniques, these rules of thumb. Later on, I'll tell you why you don't always use this rule of thumb, and when this technique can be harmful, or at least not helpful." Then, after a year or two, when they feel comfortable, you can start teaching them how people change.

There tends to be a Y in the road because some therapists feel so confident in themselves, once they're able to establish a trusting, calm relationship with disturbed people, that they just go and do it by intuition. And their patients get better, so they have feedback that they're doing a good job. But they don't understand what's possible for the person.

That's where the content comes in: what are change processes? For example, grieving is a change process that occurs on both conscious and unconscious levels, to change the narrative of life so the person can accept a loss and move on.

Defining Happiness

Rebecca Aponte: Getting back to happiness, how do you define this? What is your definition of happiness as something we could train people toward?
Mardi Horowitz: Very often, the really big concepts that have been around since words were first written on tablets are very hard to define. Justice, truth, happiness are those kinds of words. So it has to be kind of broken down into its components. The components that I deal with in A Course in Happiness are pretty long-range components like contentment, satisfaction with yourself articulated in your life—rather than joy, which might be when you open a birthday present and it's what you wanted.
VY: So that’s shorter term.
MH: That's pretty short term. You can say, "My dog is happy if I give him a bone," but it's a state of mind rather than an enduring life skill.
RA: I see.
VY: Martin Seligman takes the stance that, as therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists, we’ve tended to focus over the years on psychopathology, on the negative emotions—stress, anxiety, depression, and the like—and the assumption was that if you get rid of the negative emotions, what you’re left with is happiness. He’s taken the stand that that’s actually not the case—that’s really more like neutrality—and happiness, as he’s researched in positive psychology, is a whole other set of things. I’m wondering what your stance is on that.
MH: Well, A Course in Happiness is, in a way, taking that stance and going pretty well beyond it. I think the stance is correct as far as it goes, like Norman Vincent Peale's The Power of Positive Thinking. There is the power of positive thinking, and I think the positive psychology theory, like evolutionary psychology and self-psychology, are all really excellent additions to theory. But it's very hard for people to inhibit attention to negative topics. That's the essence of the critical symptoms for PTSD that we have studied experimentally as well as in clinical subjects, which is that they have intrusive thoughts. So you can say, "Don't have intrusive thoughts." And, as you know from other research, that tends to increase them rather than decrease them. So a big message in A Course in Happiness is to pay attention to where you're paying attention, and that there's a lot of work in addition to focusing on having more positive experiences—for example, developing more reflective self-consciousness and reducing harsh self-criticism, a source of negative feelings.
But you don't get into positive emotions by telling yourself that you're just a grand, creative wonderful person who's always compassionate, when that isn't true.
But you don't get into positive emotions by telling yourself that you're just a grand, creative wonderful person who's always compassionate, when that isn't true.
RA: Right.
MH: Reality is the enemy of an enduringly positive frame of mind. The Dalai Lama's Art of Happiness, Seligman's research in positive psychology, or Daniel Gilbert's book Stumbling on Happiness—I think it's really good research, and it's really good philosophy, and it's really good spirituality. But along with being positive and doing all the things that are in those writings, people also have to review memories of traumatic experiences. They have to recover from losses. They have to encounter grievances that have endured since childhood and given them a chip on the shoulder. They can, in a realistic way, focus their attention on positive things. That's good. But they have to have times when they focus their attention on the negative things in the right state of mind—calm, often alone, maybe with a trusted confidante—and then review these memories so as to bring their life narratives into more harmony with what's approaching in the near future, so they have plans. So A Course in Happiness deals with a systematic approach to that, derived from our studies of change processes in psychotherapy.

An Integrative Approach to Case Formulation

VY:
MH: One of the things in psychotherapy that our group has done is we've developed an empirical basis of case formulation, which allows an integration across different brand names in psychotherapy.
VY: Now, case formulation is an old concept, but I think you have a particular way of approaching that.
MH: Yes—standing on the shoulders of not only the old psychoanalytic and psychodynamic concepts, but also of people like Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis and Bugental, who were taking out of the 1960's psychoanalytic mode of formulation those things that were changeable. I don't think they disrespected the idea of unconscious dynamics, but they were saying, "Well, what can change?" If we really clarify it, change is going to take place through the use of consciousness as a tool.

We know from psychotherapy research that the relationship is the most important factor, but in our research studies we examined some additional variables.
The reason that specific techniques didn't seem to come out in many different psychotherapy studies is that it's different strokes for different folks
The reason that specific techniques didn't seem to come out in many different psychotherapy studies is that it's different strokes for different folks–a technique that's focusing on deeper emotional values may be good for some people, but actually may be even harmful and disorganizing for other people. If you don't get into the dispositional variables, then you get a washout.
VY: It seems like you always hear those questions in research: what techniques are good for what clients in what circumstances? But you never really hear the answers to that. You always hear, “It would be good if we could tailor treatment to people, but…” You hear things like, “CBT is good for depression.” But then you look at studies that say it’s no better than anything else.
MH: That doesn't mean it's not effective.
VY: Sure.
MH: And there's a huge fallacy out in the field that people don't even acknowledge. Once I say what it is, everyone will say, "No, no, no, no, no, of course we don't believe that." But there still seems to be a prevailing fallacy, which is that more studies of effectiveness means the therapy is more effective. It's simply not true. I mean, everyone knows that's not true. Psychotherapy has been very well established to be effective in general. But that doesn't mean it's effective for every case, and certainly we see negative therapeutic outcomes in some people. Some people start psychotherapy and you end up having to hospitalize them. So there's a lot to the technique; it's not that they have a toxic therapist.

A Case Study: Clone One and Clone Two

VY: Can you give an example of how a case formulation for a specific client may give an indication of certain techniques or approaches for them?
MH: Actually, right now I'm writing a paper for the American Journal of Psychiatry on exactly this topic.
VY: Okay, great. Good timing.
MH: So I'll give you the case example. It's a young woman whose mother has recently died. But the patient is in her 20's—she's been very dependent on her mother for guidance. She would probably diagnostically fit into a category of major depressive disorder a year after her mother's death, along with dependent personality disorder. So let's say she's put into therapy. It would be a focal therapy aimed at her in relation to her mother's death, and why she was not depressed beforehand, and why she's now depressed. Let's say she goes into therapy with a female therapist of an older, warm, trustworthy nature. So she sort of has a replacement, and her symptoms get a little better right away. But she comes in and starts expecting guidance from the therapist on what her decisions should be. And let's just leave out the issue of antidepressants and overmedication, which tends to occur with the simple cases.

Now, the therapy techniques that would be optimum for this patient will focus on helping her stabilize her states of mind, develop new relationships, modify her sense of identity, and develop better plans for the near future. This is kind of simple and obvious. That's what the patient would say she wanted, if she could articulate it.

Now, in the condensed, teaching form of this article, I start with Clone One and then go on to Clone Two of this exact story.
VY: What do you mean?
MH: Clone One is the person who, before the death of the mother, had a relatively coherent and well-developed sense of identity, but had role relationship models requiring guidance from her mother. She'd grown up in that container, but now the death has occurred and the container is broken. She feels more fragile, has a regression, and hasn't replaced those functions either by her own growth or in relationship to another person.

Now, let's say the techniques in Clone One's case are successful: they involve just being clear that that's her life story in a way; that she has, for the time being, the safety of a container with a good therapist; that in this container she's going to work through any sense that she's been shattered or abandoned; and that she's going to be helped to develop near-future plans in being more assertive, going out and forming relationships, and not being so frightened, hopeless and helpless. She gets better and lives happily ever after, because those techniques were very helpful and just what she needed, from just the right person, at just the right age milestone for that kind of development. So she's gone through a maturational path. And those techniques tend to be pretty interpersonal in discussion; we're looking at the repetitive, maladaptive interpersonal patterns, like excessively needing guidance from another person, being exploited by another person because she's seen as a sucker, and so on.
RA: Right, she’s sort of handing over control.
MH: She's handing over control and someone says, "Okay, you do this and this and this and this for me, and I'll tell you what to eat for dinner."

On to Clone Two: this patient has not had a chance in her previous development to develop a coherent self-organization, so she has dissociative fragments of identity—not only in conflict, but segregated in terms of memories. She may even have different memories of a relationship with her mother in different states of mind. So when the therapist is interpreting something in one state of mind, the patient may shift to another state of mind and be misinterpreting the interpretations.

States of Mind

VY: You refer to this idea of states of mind a lot. Can you briefly state what you mean by that?
MH: States of mind is one of the big concepts I refer to in formulation. And the reason for it has to do, again with the training of psychotherapists, which in the last 25 years has emphasized diagnosis.
Diagnosis is an actuarial thing: it's good for accountants and insurance companies, and for questions like, "How many cases of schizophrenia did we have in Africa in the last decade, and how does that compare with China
Diagnosis is an actuarial thing: it's good for accountants and insurance companies, and for questions like, "How many cases of schizophrenia did we have in Africa in the last decade, and how does that compare with China, and what does that indicate about…"

Also, diagnosis stemmed out of research: the DSM in 1980 was a drastic revision saying, "Okay, we don't have a theory of mental disorder and what causes symptoms, so let's just describe it."
VY: “Let’s just categorize the symptoms.”
MH: "Let's categorize by what we can find out in maybe a half-hour interview." So that's all that is, but of course the students think it's something real. I was on the committee for PTSD , anxiety disorders, and borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality disorders. And I'm the world expert on at least two of those things. They're my criteria—they're the best I could do at the time—but they're not etiological entities, and they're treated as if they were.

And the worst thing about the use of our product in making DSM III and then IV, and now V—the same arguments, by the way, are taking place—is that they're committee judgments. The committee knew there was a dilemma. Ultimately it came down on static descriptions, in part for some forensic reasons. So now you have to have five of these eight depressive symptoms for three months in order to qualify for major depressive disorder—something like that.

But if you have the passionate aim of teaching therapists, then after you say, "Here are the diagnoses, here are the rules of thumb," you have to say, "Now let's go back to the symptoms. What causes each symptom? Where do those different causes converge? And of those causes, where can we change things?"

So the states-of-mind concept was a way of dislodging the rigidity of static memorization of the diagnostic criteria. The idea is that
people aren't always despairing if they have despair. Or if they have a phobic symptom, they may not always be phobic.
people aren't always despairing if they have despair. Or if they have a phobic symptom, they may not always be phobic.
VY: Or dysthymia says you’re kind of blue most of the time, more days than not—so you can be quite depressive, but not blue all day long.
MH: Right. What are your other states of mind? And then the critical issue around states of mind is: how much in control are they?

The Dissociative Patient

RA: Right—which goes back to your second subject, the dissociative woman.
MH: Right. She was not in conscious control of where she was focusing her attention, nor was the therapist of the second woman able to draw her attention and keep it in a state of mind. She was flip-flopping in different states of mind.
RA: Was the therapist able to see it, at least?
MH: Well, with my fictional therapist and for the journal article, of course! But she uses a different technique from the first case. She observes that there are shifts in states of mind, and that this person is a very dysregulatory one, and begins to say, "Now, what's happening here?" Then the technique shifts more to helping the patient focus attention on her sense of self, her bodily self, her sense of self in the room with the other person, her sense of what was happening, and learning a kind of reflectiveness on these things that the person had not acquired before. And developing that skill helped the patient get a sense of pride that they were able to do that. So it's a different set of techniques.
VY: So in the second case, it’s much less focused on the disruption from the death of her mother. You deal primarily with the organization of her self that was a problem beforehand, but was exacerbated when her mother left the picture.
MH: Exactly right. So instead of coming back relatively swiftly from her regression to where she'd been in terms of her identity structure, in Clone Two it's going to be a longer therapy and a larger growth, ending up maybe five years later, where Clone One and Clone Two can sort of converge—they both have the capacity for intimacy, for interdependence rather than dependence, and they have integrity as well as control over their states of mind to a larger extent. But it may take longer and require different techniques—not totally different, because they overlap to some extent.

Configurational Analysis

VY: How do you teach your method of case formulation to psychotherapy trainees?
MH: For some reason, early trainees often come in with a kind of pseudo-psychoanalytic, excessively deep idea of what formulation is, and it's all based on projecting theory into whatever clinical material comes into the room. And it's often whatever theory they read that they thought applied to themselves. So they say, "Oh, this is what it all is," and then they just see this everywhere. Like spots in the visual field, they're illusions about patients. In fact, even seeing experienced therapists on videotapes with different cases, you sometimes see what I would frankly call errors, because they're applying the same segment of theory to every case.

So I developed a system called configurational analysis—which is based on four formal categories or levels of formulation—in part to help both students and colleagues think about cases. Here are the categories. One: Just describe what you observe, and select the phenomena you're trying to explain. Not everything—it could be one, two, or three symptoms, for example.
VY: So depression, anxiety, or disorganization, something like that.
MH: Right, exactly. So if the phenomenon one's trying to explain is depression, the second category is: what are the states of mind? What do you mean by depression? You're saying the person has the same prevailing mood that, if you were to generalize, is "depressed for weeks." What are the person's states of mind? The person may have the state of mind of piercing sorrow with pangs of yearning, and illusions that a divorced person is now coming back into the door.
VY: Much more specific descriptors of how the client experiences depression in that moment.
MH: Right. So that might be a state. It would probably be only a minute or two. And it might uncontrolled, too; it might be undergoverned. Then the person might have a state of kind of apathetic boredom with some tinge of restlessness and aimlessness, and feeling just kind of gray. And they might be able to rouse themselves from that, so it's a little bit more in control. Then they might have a state of agitated, restless urgency in which they engage in frenetic and fruitless activities. They might also have a state of irritation and anger. And then they might have a state of relative repose.
VY: And they might have several hours a day where they’re at their job and be very competent and feeling good about themselves.
MH: Right. And then you say, How do they shift in cycles of these states?

What triggers each state? "Well, when I get absorbed in my work, I get into a state of relative less-depression." What triggers the pining and yearning? And so on. So it's only one level down, but it's still observational.

What's more, you can share this language with the patient, so the patient can begin to examine their states of mind and look for the triggers, just like in positive psychology. You can say, "Well, how can I feel a little bit better right now? Maybe instead of criticizing myself for being lazy and having screwed up all my relationships, I should look at my achievements: I've done the architectural plans for three new buildings. I've made a living somehow. I've not gotten in car accidents. I'm taking care of my parents"—or whatever the person might say. So that's states of mind.

And even at the states level, you get a psychodynamic configuration right away with the patients. "What states are you frightened of entering that you can't prevent yourself from? What states would you like to enter and can't get into? And what states are you using to avoid the dilemma of trying to get into a good state but then you're afraid of a bad state?" So, you might hear, "I don't ask people out for coffee because they might reject me." You're then getting into the next level of formulation, which is: what are the themes that are related to these state transitions? And the themes are certain topics like, "Do people like me?"
VY: Fear of rejection.
MH: Yeah, and so forth and so on. So the topic might be impoverished relationships. And when they're on this topic, does that trigger them getting into the sorrowful state when they're thinking about a lost relationship, and a hopeless state when they're thinking about the possibility of avoiding rejection because they've been repeatedly rejected? Then, also, when you're talking about these topics, that's where you get into content: What are the topics of concern? What's unresolved? People may have big events but they've sort of reached resolution on them, so you don't talk necessarily about the biggest event. You may be talking about some little, trivial insult.
VY: Okay, so just clarify the third box again, it’s…
MH: It's the topics of concern. And it's what operations the person's deploying in order not to progress adaptively to a resolution on a topic. What are the obstacles to actually thinking that through in a realistic way and making good plans for the near future? So it's looking at what, in psychodynamics, would ordinarily be called defenses. But all therapy models recognize obstacles. A person paradoxically wants to inhibit, avoid or distort the very topic they're there to discuss. Once you recognize how are they doing that, then that's where a therapy technique will be deployed.

But the question will be, what will happen if you counteract their inattention and focus attention?
What therapists do, mostly, is tell patients where to pay attention.
What therapists do, mostly, is tell patients where to pay attention. And part of that is paying attention to their own attention, so this system of formulation helps. Really, micromoments of therapy decide what to do next, once the person has learned it.

But the fourth level is often what beginning therapists plunge down to with their theory prematurely, which is the self-and-other configurations. That's why this system of formulation is called configurational analysis: it gets down to the level of the self-and-other attitudes and beliefs, but then organizes state of mind. So when you have a patient who's flip-flopping to different states of mind, even in the relationship with you as the therapist, you often can then see, once you're looking at it, the difference of states, the different topics, the obstacles. You often can say, "Ah, here is a recurrent attitude—the patient's flip-flopping. Either they're the aggressor and I'm the victim, or I'm the aggressor and they're the victim." Once you see these role relationship models and each person as having a repertoire of role relationship models, of different self-images, then you can see a recurrent pattern.

On each of these levels, we've shown that you can get empirical, reliable, and valid predictive agreement between clinicians if you define the labels—so configurational analysis is an empirically based system of case formulation. It is psychodynamic in that it deals with wish, fear, defense, unconscious processes and stuff, but it's integrative in that you could take a cognitive behavior therapy clinician and see if they formulate their cases this way (we just published a paper on this; they do), if you enable them with a system. They're making the same observations. And the systems of cognitive behavioral formulation and configurational analysis and psychodynamic—they're all containable under the circus tent of these formal properties. But the stories they focus on tend to be different.

Focusing on Now

RA: How has all your research influenced or informed the way you think about happiness and about how happiness can be attained?
MH: Over my lifetime as a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, I shifted from what I was taught to focus on—which was mostly the developmental past and how it led to the character of a person, including character distortions and layers of the onion and that sort of thing—to seeing that as being important only if it's related to the near future. So my time frame as a therapist is: What's going to happen in the next minute with me? What's going to happen in 10 minutes? What's going to happen in two or three weeks with this patient? And what's going to happen to this patient over the next year or two? That's why the focus is on what can change. The questions in my mind, using the states of mind and other concepts, is: what's happening right now?

So the patient's telling me some story about some grievance that they have or a stressor event that's coming up that they're trying to prepare for, and I'm listening for how they're processing it in their mind.
I'm paying attention to the transactional music between us: are we getting closer, or are we in union of some sort, or are we getting further away?
I'm paying attention to the transactional music between us: are we getting closer, or are we in union of some sort, or are we getting further away? What's the state of mind of us as a pair? What's the state of mind of the patient? What's my state of mind? Am I getting bored? Why am I getting bored? Am I getting scared? Why am I getting scared? If I'm getting eager to make an interpretation, why am I so eager? Should I keep my mouth shut? Should I open it up? Should I be intuitive? Should I not? So I'm thinking about those things. But I'm also going to the past if it's going to help us understand why the patient's about to make the same mistake again.
VY: If you think that’s going to be helpful to them.
MH: If I think that's going to be helpful. Because I'm thinking, how can this patient change?

A Calm, Rational Approach

VY: Some patients who come into outpatient therapy are already very intellectualized and use intellectualization as a defense. I notice your work tends to take a fairly intellectual approach to analyzing everything. In the Course in Happiness, for instance, you advise a lot to people kind of step back a bit and take a look at their life and make some rational decisions. But I’m wondering, with some patients who are already trapped by their own overrationalization, whether…
MH: Yes, but often you find with the kind of patient you're talking about—it really is a very common obstacle—the person says, "Life is so full of predicaments," or, "How does this relate to what Nietzsche said in Fundamentals?" And of course, that's getting away from the heart of the matter. So with different patients, I might say different things. To one patient, I might say, "What do you think's happening between us?" Or to another patient I might say, "Seems to me this isn't the heart of the matter. We're talking about your decision whether to quit school or stick with your very delayed graduate thesis, which I know makes you feel either ashamed or scared and confused. And here you're talking about… What do you think's happening here?" And the patient would say, You know, it is a little scary," or "I'm a little confused." And I may say, "I am too, on your behalf!" That's what I mean by focusing attention.

Also, there's a difference between what I'm encouraging the reader to learn to do in A Course in Happiness and what the reader's going to do. I'm calm about the reader's pain. And I'm trying to say, "Try and be as calm as you can, which doesn't mean go write a philosophical essay on your predicament. Try and be as calm as you can, and allow yourself, in a safe moment, to consider your emotional distress." That's the difference between A Course in Happiness, which takes on a stress mastery approach, and a book on happiness that says, "Don't worry, just be happy"—like the Bobby McFerrin song.

I say worry, but have productive worry, and learn to stop worrying when it's not productive.
I say worry, but have productive worry, and learn to stop worrying when it's not productive. That would mean paying attention to states of mind. Is your state of worrying like going through the rosary beads of your worries? Are you repeating it and repeating it and repeating it, which is only etching in a source of negative feelings? Or can you get into a different state of mind where you're able to look at this catastrophic view of your life, and you're able to look at your excessive feelings of entitlement and expectation that life will shower you with an ever-expanding stock market? And can you get in a state of mind where you can begin to realistically look at it between these two extremes? I'm saying, "Don't avoid these things, but have tolerance for the negative feelings. Feel your feelings." But you don't get through mourning by crying ten thousand tears.
VY: But if you don’t shed any tears, that’s usually a problem.
MH: And you're going to cry, or feel like crying, when you examine some of the aspects of what you lost that got you into this stressful thing. But you have to tolerate it. The point is not only to feel anger or sorrow or shame or guilt or fear or all the negative feelings. Your aim is not to be so frightened of them, so that you can use consciousness for what it's really best at: it's a special tool for resolving problems. If it ain't a problem, we don't have to be too conscious of it. It's like driving a familiar route—you sort of find you got there and you didn't remember, "Turn left and turn right and turn left. Watch out for cars." That's automatic after you learn to drive.
VY: But if you spent hours driving circles getting lost, that’s the time to pull over and look at the map or GPS and chart a new course.
MH: Right. And sometimes you have to note when the GPS is wrong and you have to pay attention, yourself.

Research on Stress and Trauma

VY: I want to shift gears a bit. You’ve spent a great deal of your career researching stress and trauma. What got you interested in that?
MH: Well, I had my own traumatic experiences, which I remembered more and more as I began to study trauma. But what really got me started was dissatisfaction with the theory I was taught as a psychiatric resident. I kept asking my teachers, "What's the evidence for that?" I didn't want randomized clinical trials. What I wanted was to have them tell me a case where they saw that to be true, and what they observed, and what made them think that was what was going on.
VY: What were you taught that didn’t make sense to you?
MH: I was taught standard ego psychology and psychoanalysis, and the emphasis was on people who were repeating aspects of an Oedipus complex. Now, I had cases and I saw them pretty frequently, and I listened very carefully, I think. It's not that I didn't see any cases with triadic conflicts—it's that I saw a lot of other stuff too. I said, "Well, what about this, what about that?" And they kept saying, "Pay attention to the Oedipus complex. Interpret defense, interpret defense, interpret defense." It wasn't wrong; it just wasn't complete. It seemed to be applied by my supervisors to some cases where, in retrospect, I would say, for example, they had borderline personality disorder, and that caused fundamental distrust in the transference—not necessarily competitive rivalry.
VY: So when you were taught, psychoanalysis was still the dominant model.
MH: Back in the ‘60's.
VY: Right. And it was before the pendulum swung in psychiatry to be all about the brain and medication.
MH: Right.
Now we're in the decade of the brain, which seems to have gone on for 30 years!
Now we're in the decade of the brain, which seems to have gone on for 30 years!

One of my colleagues calls me an in-betweener: I don't seem to accept the biological approach and I don't accept the psychological approach. Well, I'm a scientist. I'm a scientist, physician, clinician, psychiatrist—I want to understand how it works. And it doesn't work just biologically, and it doesn't work just psychologically, and it doesn't work just socially. It's an interaction of complex patterns, and we need research methods that focus on complex patterns. That means an uphill fight with study sections that give grants, because they want homogeneous groups by diagnoses. And since I contribute to the diagnoses, I'm entitled to say they're too static. I'm trying to work to redefine post-traumatic stress disorder, even though the criteria are right out of my book on stress response syndromes. And I'm at work to see us go beyond brand names in psychotherapy towards an integrative approach, which I've tried to simplify in my books States of Mind, Understanding Psychotherapy Change, and Cognitive Psychodynamics. But economics is what drives a lot of the field. So it's big pharma; it's simplified randomized clinical trials with very simple, cheap, inexpensive treatments that can be done by people who don't have much training.
VY: This is good to hear from an insider, from a psychiatrist who’s done a lot of research.
RA: Yes, it is.
MH: Yeah. Psychiatry is a complex field. And there was that big hope for a single gene for every major mental disorder.
VY: It’s always on the first page when they find it, and then six or nine months later there’s a little article on page 20 that says that the gene for schizophrenia or alcoholism wasn’t confirmed. “The Norwegians weren’t able to replicate the study….”
MH: Right. And negative studies, even those little paragraphs, are usually rejected. It's very hard to get a negative study published. Everyone likes positive studies. It's understandable because everyone wants solutions to really big problems. But the big problems are complex, so we probably need a methodology that deals with the interplay of five or six variables, not the correlation between two variables. But if you want your PhD, you'd better correlate two variables, because you'll get it done.
VY: It already takes long enough to get a PhD. We obviously don’t have time to even scratch the surface on all your research, but what are a few of your findings on stress and trauma over the years that have really stood out?
MH: Well, I think the information-processing model really holds up for stress and trauma, which is that the catastrophic event, in a way, shatters expectations. If we were all like good boy scouts, truly prepared, we would just enjoy stressors like a rough and tumble game, because we knew what to do. When we're tackled in football, or a fly ball is coming to us in baseball, we know how to handle that. We may lose, but we aren't traumatized by the loss. But an unexpected event, or even an expected event—to the extent that any expected event still has unexpected aspects—leaves an active memory in mind that is stored and has to be processed, and will come back intrusively, even if we don't want it to be processed.

The interesting thing in starting to focus on intrusive thinking is: when does it occur? I would get calls from mental health professionals who'd say, "You're an expert on trauma. I was just in an automobile accident and a passenger was injured, and it's three days later. I'm not upset. Is that okay?"
VY: And what would you say to them?
MH: I'd say, "Too bad you asked, because the fact that you're troubling to call me up and ask means you have an intuitive sense it's not processed yet. Just wait. But don't then be frightened that you're going crazy when all of a sudden, three months from now, you have a bad dream. Very often, paradoxically, you start processing a difficult experience you've had only when you feel safe. You're too close to the accident to feel safe, so you are restoring your equilibrium by waiting. But it's still there, it's in your mind, it's unconscious, and it will come back to you when you're ready. And if you have trouble with it, call me again. But, in other words, it's not abnormal to know you're in denial and numbing, which is why you're calling. If you were really okay, you wouldn't call."
VY: So your advice might be, “Wait, and when it’s a problem, that’s the time to deal with it”—not to rush in with the critical incident stress debriefing and have everyone talk about something they experienced, whether they want to or not.
MH: Right. Well, critical incident stress debriefing was really oversold, as are certain other techniques. And the word I want to emphasize is "sold." It's the economic driver that makes people want to stay within their brand names of psychotherapy, because that's how they think they're going to attract patients—because they've got the gold dealie that says, "I trained in, you-name-it, ear-twitching therapy." And probably almost anything can be helpful. In fact, therapists wouldn't do it if they didn't know it was helpful.
VY: For some people, sometimes.
MH: For some people sometimes. But they don't want to leave their economic niche until there are no patients for it.
VY: Right! Who does?
MH: Exactly.
VY: You’ve done research for decades on this topic. Were there any findings that surprised you or were counterintuitive, or that therapists, don’t know or get about stress and trauma?
MH: I think clinicians tend to underemphasize the patient's potential for growth. And the growth is going to be in terms of identity coherence and harmony. So when a person is coming out of a loss—the loss of a job or home, for example—they have to work through the meaning of that loss to themselves and their loved ones. That's top priority. They have to sustain the negative feelings. And there are sources of positive feeling that they can get, like pride and the respect of others, for handling a loss with courage and stamina—and that, itself, can change negative attitudes about identity. So instead of the person feeling, "This happened to me because I'm so worthless, or I'm so incompetent, or because I can't cope, or because I'm dependent," they can now feel, "I'm a human being. I got through this dark passage. This is a sign of real, authentic strength. I made some poor decisions, but then, who am I to predict the future? If I made a poor decision, it doesn't mean that what Uncle Charlie said about me being so stupid is how I need to see myself."
VY: So one thing is to see stress or trauma as a potential for growth; the goal is not just to return to baseline.
MH: Right.

Where Therapists Get Stuck

VY: You run a second-opinion clinic for psychotherapists, where therapists bring cases that they are feeling stuck with. Obviously every case is different, but in terms of dealing with stress or trauma, are there ways that you see clinicians get stuck or make mistakes, other than not seeing the potential for growth?
MH: Clinicians get stuck in their own attitudes.
VY: For example?
MH: For example, they've made an initial formulation of the case. They've been treating the case. And they didn't reformulate. At our second-opinion clinic, we give them a written report, sometimes a dozen single-spaced pages long. We go through the phenomenon, we go all the way through states, and then we end with technique, and we buttress this with the empirical literature where we can. So there are concrete suggestions like, "Why don't you say this?" Then we get the response from the patients and clinicians. It's extraordinarily successful.
VY: How do you know it’s successful?
MH: Well, they say so. But how we really know is that the clinician then sends another case.
VY: Could you give an example of some of the types of suggestions? Therapy is so complex and so personal that I’d think a lot of therapists would be skeptical that you can get enough accurate information. How do you really know what’s going on in the room so that you, as an outsider, could be helpful?
MH: We do two-hour interviews with the patient—you can do quite a different interview when you're a consultant than you can as a therapist. Where we have permission to, we record the interview and go over it again afterward. Then we discuss it with five senior faculty and a bunch of presidents, and then we boil it down. The patient's not paying for all that—they're paying for about 90 minutes of it, and we're spending six or seven hours as an intellectual and teaching enterprise. Then we give the written report to the therapist.

When we interview the therapists afterward, They say, "I kind of knew that—but I didn't know I knew it." They say, Yeah, now I see it!" So they had bits of it, but they didn't see how it fit together, and they didn't see where to go with it as a practical suggestion.
VY: So one way they get stuck, you’d say, is they don’t reformulate the case. How else?
RA: It sounds like what you were just speaking to is that they’re not taking that little blip of intuition seriously enough to truly consider it and to use that as a starting point to reformulate their original opinion.
MH: Right. One example (I'm fictionalizing, of course) is a case who was chronically suicidal to the point where they would get hospitalized—just from suicidality, not for psychosis. And yet the patient in therapy sessions was rational, presenting emotional topics. And the therapist, by the therapist's report and by the patient's independent report, was sort of hammering away at structuring current time, because the therapist felt that was disorganizing for the patient…
VY: Helping them structure the time in their life.
MH: Right. "What are you going to do this week? What did you do last week? Did you do your homework? Didn't you do your homework?" Giving them homework to do. Having phone calls: "If you don't call me by five o' clock, I'm calling the police," and that kind of thing. The patient definitely felt the therapist was very caring, no question. (In our second opinions, by the way, we're not referring the patient to another therapist.) But they were feeling stalemated, because while that was a little stabilizing for the patient—
VY: They weren’t getting better. They were still chronically suicidal.
MH: Right. So in our formulation, we put together a number of pieces of evidence and said, "Look: This patient has two forms of confusional states. Even though they're not manifesting their confusional states in the therapy hour, we can infer that they are having confusional states when they're not with you. And here's what's happening in those confusional states." We were specific about it, but I'll be general: They're confusing thought and action, so they're weighing, in terms of their deeply held emotional values, certain things critical to the self, when they were thoughts, not actions, and they're treating the thoughts as if they were actions. And they're confusing self and other—so they don't always know whether you said something or they said something, or you think this about them or they think this about themselves.

And those are two things that you can tell the patient about in a sympathetic way, that they do this. Then the focus of the therapy becomes: "What's the difference between thought and action, and what's the difference between you and not-you?" And, You have some vulnerabilities here, and we need to address them, very patiently, very slowly, very repeatedly."

Then the patient would say, "This is terrible"—there would be obstacles to hearing that. But once the patient realizes that you're really sticking with them like you have stuck with them, and that you are examining this together, then when they're having these confusional states outside the therapy, they can say, "Oh, I'm going to talk about this with Dr. So-and-so. I don't have to do anything about it right now."
RA: And they can know what it is, at least.
MH: Yeah. And we said, "Well, this is going to be scary for you because you think maybe if you talk about confusional states, they'll get more confused. But states are unlikely to get worse. So this is an experiment; see if they get better."

The Near Future: Research Directions in PTSD

VY: We’ve covered a wide range of topics because you’ve had a wide-ranging career with many accomplishments and contributions. What’s of interest to you now? What are you working on these days?
MH: Well, I'm trying to deal with what you might call personalized or individualized choices of psychotherapy techniques in PTSD. I don't think PTSD is treated as optimally as we can do it. And I don't think some of the manualized treatments, while they're effective, are effective enough.
VY: Say a little more—what do you mean by personalized?
MH: Decision trees. We're trying to write up a fifth edition of Stress Response Syndromes. Everything has held up pretty well in that book and successive editions, but the fifth edition will have more on how you make decisions at critical moments in therapy—like when to use exposure techniques, and when not to use exposure techniques because they're likely to retraumatize the person rather than desensitize them. So I hope that will be helpful, because a lot of people are just taught, "In Session One, give them education for 20 minutes. Then get the story of the stress event for 20 minutes. Then assign homework. In the next session, review the homework for 10 minutes, then do a gradated exposure treatment, then assign more homework, then give more education. Then in the third session…"
VY: That sounds like bad therapy.
RA: Listening to that, it’s very easy to see how so many therapists would end up underestimating the potential of their clients.
MH: Yeah. But if you want to hire somebody with one year of training and pay them a little less than you'd pay an experienced clinician, and have them be helpful to people, that will be helpful. It's just that it won't be as helpful as that patient might need. So you could start with that, and if the patient has a remission of their disorder, fine. "Come back if you have trouble." But if they don't have remission or if they've dropped out, then you have to make some new decisions. Or if you have an experienced clinician, you can make decisions all along and decide when to do what.
VY: Well, I think this has been a great discussion. Thank you so much for coming and talking with us.
MH: You're welcome. It was a pleasure.

Lisa Firestone on Psychotherapy with Suicidal Clients

Something to Lose

Rebecca Aponte: One thing that I’m really interested to know is: what are the rewards of working with suicidal clients?
Lisa Firestone: Wow. Well, obviously, the ultimate reward is if you can make somebody's life worth living so that they're no longer feeling suicidal. But it's often a real struggle—often, people who are suicidal have complex problems that are not easily solved. They also have issues with being able to regulate their emotions and tolerate strong negative emotions. While it's a diverse population of people who become suicidal, they seem to have those two things in common. Those issues have to be addressed to have any long-term effect. You could ride out crises, but they will resurface if the person doesn't learn some basic ways of dealing with their emotions.
RA: How do you stay motivated as a therapist working with these sorts of very complex issues?
LF: There's nothing like working with a suicidal patient to make you feel motivated, because there's so much concern and fear involved in what the outcome can be if it doesn't go well. Israel Orbach, who we interviewed for our film on suicide, talks about how it's really important to find something that you'll lose if the patient would die, and I think that's a really powerful idea. He's not talking about losing in terms of your status or professional or legal liability—he's talking about what you come to value in that person.
A lot of suicidal people are brilliant, funny, charming in various ways; there are a lot of positives there, too. One of the last suicidal patients I worked with was a brilliant young student. It's easy to see the things to admire from the outside. It's helping the person see themselves in that perspective, because they're seeing everything through a very negative filter.
A lot of suicidal people are brilliant, funny, charming in various ways; there are a lot of positives there, too. One of the last suicidal patients I worked with was a brilliant young student. It's easy to see the things to admire from the outside. It's helping the person see themselves in that perspective, because they're seeing everything through a very negative filter. They're not seeing their positive attributes, or potential positives in their life, very clearly.

Victor Yalom: It sounds like you’re emphasizing the importance of finding a way to connect to aspects of that client.
Lisa Firestone: Aspects of the client—the part of them that wants to live.
All suicidal people are ambivalent: part of them wants to die, but part of them wants to live as well.
All suicidal people are ambivalent: part of them wants to die, but part of them wants to live as well. And if you can connect with and help strengthen that part of them that wants to live, then you're on the right track. The trick is to not do anything to support the negative side. I just consulted the other day for a man whose wife is very distraught because her adult son committed suicide. =The night before he did it, she went from having been catering and caretaking, to blasting him. And of course now she feels very guilty about that, and is experiencing a lot of self-recrimination. She's also suicidal, herself, at this point. The husband reported that a famous drug and rehabilitation counseling center counseled the son, saying basically, "You can't even take care of yourself; how do you expect to take care of your family?"—which is actually a voice on our scale for predicting suicide risk. That's what he reported their counselor said to him the night before he died!
RA: Wow.
LF: So that's siding with the part of the person that wants to die. And it's easy to get caught up in those kinds of statements or sentiments, because the client will provoke those kinds of reactions. And I'm sure he may have precipitated that reaction, but it still was not a very therapeutic way to respond to him.
VY: So the whole idea of suicide and working with suicidal clients, as you said, brings up a lot of fear—it’s very threatening to therapists.
LF: Absolutely—especially in our litigious society, where wrongful death cases do happen. And especially with suicide, because when somebody dies by suicide, there's a lot of anger, but there's a lot of reluctance to direct that anger at the person who is primarily responsible: the person who died. So there's a lot of anger on the part of families, of wanting to accuse therapists of being the problem. There's a lot of anger on the part of therapists, of wanting to accuse families of being the problem. There is a lot of anxiety around it. And most people going into to our field are not looking to be dealing with life-or-death situations. They want to help people, have a feeling for people, and yet with suicide we are dealing with a life-and-death situation where somebody could actually lose their life. So that in itself is anxiety provoking.

Suicidal patients tend to provoke negative countertransference feelings, as well. They tend to make therapists feel like getting rid of them, just like they feel like getting rid of themselves. And they do that with friends and family members, as well. That's part of what I mean by complex problems: because they've been interacting with people in ways that reaffirm their own negative view of themselves.

Bending the Rules

RA: When you’re forging a therapeutic alliance with these types of clients, how do the normal boundaries come into play? Do you bend the rules? Are you self-revealing? Certainly the stakes are significantly higher.
LF: The stakes are significantly higher, and the need to connect with them in a manner that inspires hope, and to keep that connection with them, is crucial. When they looked at people who committed suicide while they were in treatment, there was some breakdown in the relationship where the suicidal person felt like, "Even this person can't help me." This reinforced the hopelessness and helplessness that they were feeling, as well as the desperation, which was found in the same study to be the strongest negative emotion associated with suicide. So keeping that connection is really important. But it's a complex process, and certainly
if you talk to people who are specialists in suicide, they will all tell you about times that they did things that were outside the boundaries of what we usually consider the limits of psychotherapy.
if you talk to people who are specialists in suicide, they will all tell you about times that they did things that were outside the boundaries of what we usually consider the limits of psychotherapy.

Edwin Shneidman, the father of suicidology, talks about a student at UCLA who came to see him ready to kill herself over an A-. He needed to buy time to form a relationship with her, so he went to the teacher and got the grade changed. He decided the difference between an A and an A- to UCLA was nothing; the difference to this girl was life and death at that moment. Now, we wouldn't do that with most of our clients, and I'm not suggesting that we always should, but there is a need to build and maintain that connection. And if you look at Dialectical Behavior Therapy—one of the therapies with the strongest research track record in terms of affecting people who are suicidal, particularly those with Borderline Personality Disorder —there is an emphasis on maintaining the connection through phone contact between sessions, frequent sessions, and skill building classes. As Marsha Linehan describes it herself, it's shepherding them through, checking up on them, and teaching them how to regulate and tolerate their emotions.
VY: I had a client who was suicidal in a somewhat unusual way. This was maybe 10 years ago, and AIDS was more of a death sentence. He was talking about actively going out and having unprotected sex to infect himself. I was quite concerned about him and ended up driving him to the hospital in my car because it seemed like the best alternative. I thought he needed to be hospitalized and he agreed to that. I didn’t want to call an ambulance and have him strapped into that. So I just walked down with him to the garage and got him in my car and drove him to the hospital. That certainly is not something I would normally do with a patient, but it felt right and I think it was helpful.
LF: Yes. I think, in each case, we just have to reflect on what's in the best interest of the client. And we're going to end up doing things that are, like you said, not what you would do with every client, but that are important for this particular client at this point in time. John T. Maltsberger, who is a suicidologist in Boston, talks about a client he got just prior to Christmas break, during which he usually took a skiing vacation. She was suicidal, and he was really torn: “Do I go and feel guilty the whole time and worry about her, and ruin my vacation? Do I not go and resent her for having interrupted my vacation, which will come out in the countertransference, or one way or another in the therapy?” The agreement they made was that they would have a phone call every morning at 7:00 a.m. during that vacation. She felt very cared about and contained by that intervention. He felt relieved at the end of those phone conversations: he could go skiing and enjoy his day knowing he was going to talk to her the next morning. And it worked.
RA: Is it common to collaborate with the client in figuring out what kind of things can work like that?
LF: I think working collaboratively in the relationship is the most important thing. And there's actually a group that meets in Switzerland every two years that is devoted to working on that issue of collaborative, relationship-oriented work with suicidal clients. At this conference, I have experienced a psychoanalytic person speaking right before a behaviorist, and they're saying the same thing about what you do with a suicidal client. So it's really interesting—even though the presenters represent the theoretical spectrum, they're talking about the relationship being primary.
VY: I think most of the research shows that if you really dig deep and tune into the client’s perspective, you find it’s their sense of you—that you really do care about them, that you’re willing to go outside the normal boundaries if necessary—that is what’s ultimately important to them.
LF: Certainly in some cases, and often these are people for whom the attachment relationships they had early on were not secure, and were not such that they were able to learn to either tolerate or regulate their emotions. These are things that an infant originally needs from the outside. An attuned parent provides these functions, but a parent who is depressed, substance abusing, or who can't regulate their own emotions is going to have a hard time filling that function for a young baby.
RA: And then there’s a fear to get attached to these people because, should they commit suicide, that’s a great loss to whoever is attached.
LF:
That's the thing about suicide: there's no suicide without other people being hurt.
That's the thing about suicide: there's no suicide without other people being hurt. It's not a private act between a person and themselves. Nobody's an island unto themselves enough that their suicide doesn't affect other people. Certainly, when you're the therapist, you get hurt if it happens, but also the family members, the loved ones. No matter how complex their relationships to the individual might have been, they get hurt.
VY: One of the first clients I ever saw, his father committed suicide when my client was a child. I think for children, as in this case, the sense that a parent would take their own life rather than being there for them is intensely damaging.
LF: I don't think anybody's fully studied the impact on children of losing a parent to suicide, and I think it's huge. I don't think there's a simple way to deal with it. But that's a very understudied population, and a high-risk population for suicide. Losing a parent during childhood puts somebody at greater risk for both suicide and violence.

Finding the Family

RA: Do you often bring the family into the therapy session? If you have someone coming to you who is suicidal, do you talk to their family or friends?
LF: Ideally you talk to the people on the ground, and that could be the family, spouse, or roommate. The subtle changes in behavior that are going to alert you to the likelihood of an actual suicide attempt are going to be noticed even better by the people who are seeing the person daily than by the therapist.

Some families are too toxic; they're not going to be helpful. It's going to make the situation worse. Sometimes there are a lot of complex dynamics going on in the family, so it's not an absolute given that you're going to want to involve them. But you certainly will learn information about your client that you do not know. And if you're dealing with a younger person who's still in a lot of contact with their parents, it makes a huge difference to have the family on board to understand both the level of risk and what the management and treatment plans entail.
VY: I think many of us are still overly influenced by this neutral, passive role of the therapist with the focus on boundaries. I think for almost any client it’s helpful to be in touch with family and friends. If a client’s siblings are in town, I bring them in for a session. I find out so much more about my client every time I do this—things I might have never expected.
LF: Their support system can strengthen what you know and how you can intervene. I also tell family members, if you're concerned about your loved one being suicidal, and they're in therapy, you've got to advocate for them. You have to call the therapist. Even if the therapist can't talk to you because of confidentiality, they can listen. They don't even have to acknowledge whether this person is their patient or not. But say, "I think this is really important for you to know." I had a mother contact me in Santa Barbara whose daughter was in another state and in therapy and was not doing well on her antidepressants: she was sleeping 20 hours a day on them.
VY: That’s one indication of not doing well.
LF: Right, but she wasn't telling her psychiatrist this. So how was he supposed to know? It's very hard to adjust somebody's medication if they're not giving you the feedback you need in order to do that. Families can have some power, but they can't ultimately necessarily save the person's life any more than you can as the therapist. There still is frustration because the final decision is going to be up to the person, but there's also a lot families can do.

When possible, therapists should really communicate with the family and make them part of the treatment team. I see therapists very resistant to that, like you said. Even though they may not see themselves as Freudian, they see themselves as having good boundaries, even with children. You would think that anybody who was seeing somebody under 18 would obviously be letting parents know this, but
I've heard stories over and over again of people who wanted to pull their kids out of therapy for whatever reason, and the therapist said, "Oh, no, you can't do that—this child is suicidal."
I've heard stories over and over again of people who wanted to pull their kids out of therapy for whatever reason, and the therapist said, "Oh, no, you can't do that—this child is suicidal."
RA: And that’s when the parent finds out?
LF: And the parent says, "Wait a minute, you never told me that before? How could you be treating my child and not letting me know that you thought that?"
VY: It sounds like you’ve done a fair amount of consulting to other therapists with suicidal clients.
LF: Yes, I have. That's one of the things that I do: people call me when they're concerned.

Suicide is an Acquired Ability

VY: Of course, every case is different, but do you find that there are some common types of advice you give, or some common types of problems you see in the way that therapists approach or deal with suicidal patients?
LF: Yes. Unfortunately, I think one of the problems is that, because it causes therapists so much anxiety, they tend to minimize or want to think the person is less suicidal than they are. And I think families do that too.
VY: Any examples of that pop into your mind?
LF: A therapist from the East Coast, who was seeing an adolescent boy, called me. He was sixteen at the time, and he made his first suicide attempt when he was fourteen: he took a very minor amount of medication, not even very serious. Second suicide attempt happened about a year later: he took a more significant amount of medication, but told his mom. He got taken to the hospital, and had his stomach pumped. In therapy, the day before his third suicide attempt, he basically said that he felt suicidal; he felt unloved and uncared for by his mom, who was there in the session. His mom had a new baby, was distracted as well as sick, and hadn't been paying as much attention to him as a result. The next day, he jumped off a low bridge and broke every bone in his body. He has minimal brain damage and will survive—miraculously. But everything he said the day before in therapy should have told the therapist what was coming.
There's a tendency to minimize or to think, "Well, his past attempts weren't serious." There's a tendency to not want to think that this could really happen.
There's a tendency to minimize or to think, "Well, his past attempts weren't serious." There's a tendency to not want to think that this could really happen.
RA: I read an autobiography about a woman who had dissociative identity disorder and had also attempted suicide. The author wrote that as she kept talking about suicide, she was getting more comfortable with the concept, while everyone else around her was beginning to tune out what she was saying. Do you find that that’s common?
LF: Yes. And there's a desensitization process to suicide attempts that makes the person feel like, "This is a course of action I could take." It gets easier and easier to do as they make attempts. And people do get tuned out to it, because they think, "Oh, they're just trying to manipulate us," especially with kids or teenagers. They downplay the risk and don't really hear it. I also think the therapist or the family member sees all the good traits in this person. It's hard to realize that they could really feel the way they do about themselves.
VY: So one obvious implication of this is to take people’s threats seriously.
LF: Absolutely. Take people's threats seriously. You're better off overreacting than underreacting. When a therapist seems panicked or made afraid by the patient's suicidality, it often increases the patient’s sense of hopelessness. It's experienced as basically admitting defeat or lack of ability, which makes them feel more helpless and hopeless. So it's not that we need to panic about it, but we do need to take it seriously and do whatever we need to do to make them safe, including hospitalization when that's necessary. And also really following up closely when they get out of the hospital, because that's the highest risk time: the three weeks post-hospitalization.
VY: But don’t you think it’s helpful, if you’re really concerned—if you’re scared, even—to share that with the client? Isn’t that being real?
LF: Absolutely. But not in a manner as to communicate that you are helpless to help them. Instead, what you want to communicate is that you want them to be safe, so whatever is necessary to keep them safe needs to be done.
RA: And you have to monitor how it’s impacting you.
LF:

Some Uncommon Advice


Absolutely. Making yourself a real person to them is important because that strengthens the connection. What you're trying to build is trust: you want them to see you as a safe haven, as well as the attachment for them that they may never have had.

I think another problem is trying to get a client to stop behaviors that are self-destructive but that are helping them manage their emotions, like self-harm behaviors. Many therapists just want it to stop. Many parents just want it to stop when it's their teenager. But you don't want to rip that away from somebody for whom that's a self-soothing behavior that's working, until you replace it with a more healthy coping strategy.

We have a mother whose son committed suicide days after his 15th birthday. The year before, he started to cut himself, and she took him to therapy. The therapist got him to stop, and he spent the next six months searching the attic for the bullets to the gun in the house. And the day he found them, he died.

You don't want them to just stop.
RA: Wow. I don’t think that’s advice you hear everywhere.
LF: No. I think it's hard because to most people, self-mutilation behaviors seem horrifying and painful. But to people who use them, they are very soothing. You want them to develop healthier coping strategies, certainly, but you want to do that before you just say, "Stop." So you're really looking into how they cope:
what works for them when they're stressed? Maybe that's cutting themselves, or maybe that's burning themselves. That may not sound very good to you, but for them it's working. And when it's working is not when they're going to die. It's when things aren't working.
what works for them when they're stressed? Maybe that's cutting themselves, or maybe that's burning themselves. That may not sound very good to you, but for them it's working. And when it's working is not when they're going to die. It's when things aren't working.
VY: But what does the therapist do with that? If you don’t urge them to stop, then what?
LF: I think you want to slowly replace it. You want to work with them on developing healthier strategies so that those other behaviors can fall out. But you have to respect what works for them when they're in distress, and what worked for them in the past. Then, how can we move to something that would be even a better strategy for them? But you don't want to do things to expose them more to their pain—you want to help ameliorate that pain. You've got to deal with their pain. The deep underlying psychological pain they're experiencing often has to do with their early pains and hurts, and feeling that they don't deserve to live—these core beliefs that they basically should be dead, that they shouldn't have been born in the first place.

The Power of Dissociation

VY: Sometimes. And maybe sometimes it’s just real-life crises that trigger vulnerabilities.
LF: They trigger vulnerabilities, but those vulnerabilities are there. And you talked about somebody who has dissociative identity disorder.
Certainly dissociation, I think, is a key piece in suicide, and this is one of the under-researched issues.
Certainly dissociation, I think, is a key piece in suicide, and this is one of the under-researched issues. The role that dissociation plays in violent behavior is much better researched and more spoken and written about than it is with suicide, and yet I think it's a key component to the acquired ability to kill yourself. We have some clients that feel very suicidal, but they don't have the acquired ability to do it, so it's not going to happen. But that desensitization of making attempts, of physically experiencing or being exposed to a lot of pain, of being able to dissociate… I don't think you get suicide without that ability to dissociate. And I don't mean having to have full-blown dissociative identity disorder, but certainly, having the ability or tendency to dissociate is there in people who complete suicide.

If you think about it, just on a basic animal level, an animal that's injured gasps for every last breath; so do human beings. But with people who are suicidal, they have to go so against that to actually take actions against their own body that they have to be in a pretty disconnected state. And the suicide attempt often reconnects them to themselves. They snap back to themselves.
RA: Yes, I remember that from Voices of Suicide.
LF: Kevin Hines talks about that: how he felt like he was worthless, he didn't deserve to live, he was a burden to his friends and family. He jumped, and the minute he lost physical contact with the bridge it was, "Wait a minute, I don't want to die. Wait a minute! And these people love me!”
RA: Not dissociated anymore.
LF: Not dissociated anymore—reconnected, whole different perspective. And that's one of the problems with suicide: when people use not-so-lethal means like pills or things like that, they can call somebody—they can potentially save themselves, and people can potentially find them and have time to save them. The problem with very lethal means like guns, which are the number one method here in the United States, is it's over in a second. You have to have sustained intent for such a brief period. Jumping off a bridge takes moments of sustained intent. And there's no going back, in most cases.

A Personal Philosophy on Suicide

VY: What’s your philosophical stance on suicide? Do you make any distinctions? For example, certain states are talking about the right to die if you have a physical illness. Where do you draw the line between “someone is insane” or “it’s a permanent state of pain”? What happens if someone has been chronically depressed for twenty years, and they’re miserable and they’re unhappy, and they just want to end the pain?
LF: It's a very hard one for me, because I generally believe people should have the freedom to make decisions about their life and live in any way that is meaningful to them. The problem around suicide, for me, is that the person is almost never in a rational state of mind. Even in research that has been done with terminal cancer patients, those who wanted to hasten their death were in a depressed state. Depression is treatable, even for those at the end of their lives.

We don't have optimal end-of-life care here. We do for some, but we don't for all. So there are people who feel like they're a burden to their family or they're going to eat up all the family's money, because they are. That's what will happen. That puts outside pressures on the situation, certainly, so I think it's very difficult. And I think it's a kind of slippery slope issue. Even in countries and states where it's legal, there are cases of people who have been depressed for short periods of time who get assisted in killing themselves, and I have a lot of trouble with that—people who have not had a chance to receive adequate treatment. And with optimal pain management, I don't think people generally want to hasten their own deaths. I don't think we should make people be in pain. Currently, when a person speaks up and provides feedback to their doctor, we can have optimal pain management for most situations. So I hate to make it a moral issue, but I do think that suicide always hurts other people, so I think that does make it a bit of a moral issue. It's not just between the person and themselves. And I've heard Thomas Szasz speak on this; I've heard very reasonable researchers on the other side who have reached a different conclusion. I heard somebody present on it at the International Association of Suicidology once who said, "Any doctor who feels good about assisting somebody in their own suicide shouldn't be doing it." That should be one of the qualifications: that you don't feel good about it. And who does those evaluations that decide that somebody's in the right state of mind to do that? What does that even mean?
My belief is that when anyone is in a suicidal state, they are not thinking rationally, they are at the mercy of a destructive thought process
My belief is that when anyone is in a suicidal state, they are not thinking rationally, they are at the mercy of a destructive thought process, what we refer to as the “voice.” These voices are tormenting them, causing the psychological pain they are expressing, and encouraging them to get out of the pain by killing themselves. These voices represent the “antiself,” which is opposed to the person’s going on being.
RA: You mentioned earlier that the role of the therapist in helping the suicidal person is to help them find ways to alleviate their psychological pain. Do you get to a point that you do start to explore the pain and start to work through it?
LF: You want to get to the bottom of the process that is causing the pain. You want to bring to the surface these destructive thoughts or voices, challenge them, separate from them, and act against them, helping the client to take his or her own side. You want to help make life worth living to them. So what gives them meaning? What lights them up? What matters to them? That's strengthening that self system, so from the beginning you're wanting to connect with that and support that. What you don’t want to do is anything that sides with the ways they've turned on themselves and the ways they're thinking negatively about themselves, the antiself. And it's easy to do in those moments. Even saying things like, "How could you do this to your kids?" can be interpreted as, “I really am a bad parent.” What you want to communicate is, “People really need you to stick around, and your kids need you to stick around.” It's choosing your words. It's thinking through what you're communicating or how it's coming across to that person in that moment in time. It's the same content in both of those statements, but they come across very differently.

Keeping it Real

VY: Someone reading this interview might get a little concerned that they have to weigh their words too carefully—like if they say the wrong words, suddenly they could be responsible for having their patient commit suicide.
LF: I don't think anybody can be completely responsible for another person's suicide, first of all—and
I caution therapists against thinking either that they can save every patient or that they're going to be responsible.
I caution therapists against thinking either that they can save every patient or that they're going to be responsible. But it's having the right intent to what you're trying to do with the person, and knowing where you really sit in your feelings. And trying to communicate that: that you really do care about them, that you really do want to see them be able to live and to feel better than they do now, and offering that hope that they can feel better than they do now. And when you recognize that there has been a misattunement or the client has taken something you said wrong, you admit your mistake and repair the relationship. And really helping them develop the skills and the ability to get there, partly by looking at what is driving them to feel suicidal in the first place, and unearthing the negative thoughts that they're experiencing and what behaviors they engage in when they're thinking that way. Often, when they're thinking negatively about themselves, they isolate themselves. That's when these negative thoughts take more hold over them. So getting them out of their isolation is huge.
VY: So you take a very active advice-giving role when you think someone’s at risk.
LF: No, you are active and engaged, but you are not advice-giving. When somebody's in suicidal crisis, I think they do really need you to provide the structure. It's not that you're the expert telling them how they should live their lives, but you're collaborating with them on how you can make this work.
VY: Maybe it’s a dirty little secret that I think almost all of us at some point in our lives have felt some level of despair that may involve some vague, or not so vague, suicidal thinking. This includes therapists, of course.
LF: Oh, absolutely. And having tolerance for that and for those feelings is really important. But I think for therapists it can be very scary, because any of those feelings in them could get stirred up in sitting with somebody who is really feeling that way so strongly.
VY: Do you think it’s helpful for therapists to share that they’ve had experiences like that—that they can really relate?
LF: I think it can be helpful. Again, it's how you use it and how that's going to be received by that individual. If you have somebody who's on the brink of suicide, who's really in suicidal crisis, and you say, "I know how you feel," they're often going to feel like you just obviously aren't paying attention, because you haven't had that experience. Even if you've been there, they're going to have a hard time believing that you were there and that you got where you are now. It's going to be hard for them to really feel it. So it's important not to minimize it. It's like saying to a parent who's lost a child, "I know how you feel." If you haven't had that experience, you probably don't really know how they feel. You can empathize with it—you can think about what it would be like to be in their shoes—but that's a bit different. And I think people in suicidal crisis can be very sensitive to that. So I just think it's important not to overstate it, because it will be experienced as disingenuous.
RA: It’s kind of like what you were saying earlier—that you just have to be so real, and that even amongst the different disciplines of therapists who work with suicide, it’s so incredibly obvious that it’s the relationship that matters. It sounds like that honesty is crucial.
LF: I think it's huge and yet I think there are plenty of therapists out there who do not realize this.
And I think, in managing our own anxiety about dealing with suicidal clients, it's a very good idea to get consultation.
And I think, in managing our own anxiety about dealing with suicidal clients, it's a very good idea to get consultation. It puts another person's perspective on it that can be helpful. And from a legal perspective, it's also very important because it's like taking a biopsy of the standard of care. If you consult with somebody and they agree with your treatment approach and you document that, that's also very protective. But it's also helpful for your client because if you get too distressed or feel overwhelmed by it, I don't think that's helpful for them.

And I think it's important not to have too many suicidal patients in your practice at any one time; it is just much too stressful for anybody. When we were doing testing for our suicide assessment, we were in therapists' offices all over the country, and in one case a woman had seven people in her practice that tested as being highly suicidal. She didn't intend to get in that situation. It had just sort of happened that she had taken on that much, and it was probably not the right thing to do, for her or for the patients.

Identifying Suicidal Thoughts

RA: Let’s talk about the assessment. There’s the FAST (Firestone Assessment of Self-Destructive Thoughts) that you and your father worked out. Can you describe that briefly?
LF: Sure. We started to look at what we knew about suicide, and at a continuum of negative thoughts that contribute to suicide in particular. We looked for statements from people who had made serious suicide attempts and were in the voice therapy groups we were doing at the time. All of the statements that we put on the scale were taken directly from the clinical material—things that people actually voiced. And we looked at the whole continuum of self-destructiveness, from mild self-critical thinking that we all have at one time or another, to extreme self-hatred, all the way up to suicidal thoughts. We took statements from 11 levels along that continuum and determined the statements that best fit their category based on expert reviewers. We then looked at those that distinguish between suicidal and nonsuicidal people in our pilot study. Then we tested people all around the country who were in outpatient psychotherapy, and then we did the second study of people who were in inpatient psychotherapy and had been diagnosed with the disorders most associated with suicide risk. We found that you really could distinguish between people who are very depressed and are suicidal from those who aren't, or people who have bipolar disorder and are suicidal from those who have bipolar disorder and are not. We found that people who have borderline personality disorder endorse more negative thoughts than any other group. Still there are very different negative thoughts for those who are suicidal than those who aren't suicidal.

It's interesting that cognitive-behavioral therapists focus on negative thoughts as being the underlying driver of a lot of self-destructive behavior, including suicide, but the tests that they've developed are not based on thoughts.
We ask people directly: “Do you have these thoughts toward yourself?” And we have found that people are a lot more honest about their thoughts than about their behavior.
We ask people directly: “Do you have these thoughts toward yourself?” And we have found that people are a lot more honest about their thoughts than about their behavior. For instance, there's a whole subset of items on the FAST that have to do with the kind of thoughts that lead to addictive behaviors. "Do you have an alcohol problem?" That's an opinion question and most people will say no to it—even people whom you might consider as having an alcohol problem. We're not very good at opinion questions. But if you ask them specifically, "Do you have this negative thought, or that negative thought…" They're more likely to say, "Oh yeah, I have those thoughts."
VY: So the thoughts that they identify through the FAST can reliably predict suicidality?
LF: Yes. Suicidality, substance abuse, self-harming behavior—all can be identified by the FAST. We've found that in half the cases in which a patient had a history of suicide attempts, they hadn't told their ongoing therapist. Same with self-mutilation behaviors: in half the cases, their ongoing therapist didn't know about these behaviors.
VY: What does that tell you?
LF: Well, in the case of suicide, one thing it tells you is that therapists aren't asking. The patients weren't hiding it; they just had never been asked about it. They don't want to burden their therapists with the anxiety of having to feel that they're suicidal or that they're engaging in self-mutilation. And yet, as a therapist, as much as it might cause you anxiety, you want to know those things.
RA: There may be some level of shame associated with it for the patient.
LF: There is some level of shame, and there is a level of protectiveness toward the therapist, too. And I think it's really important to draw those things out and to ask. And then I think we need to really address them as well.
RA: And take it seriously.
LF: Yes, take it seriously. And it's interesting—if you sit there with somebody while they take the FAST, when you get to the items they think only they have, they sort of startle, or they almost laugh. People will say, "Wow, where'd you get that thought?" A lot of people say things like, "I'm talking to myself a lot more than I thought I was." They start to self-identify their patterns of negative thoughts: “I can see that when I get stressed I start to isolate myself.” This is very helpful because it moves things forward in the therapy.

The reason we put these thoughts on a scale is because we've found in our research that these thoughts that people verbalize are not just thoughts, unfortunately.
The thoughts actually direct how people live their lives day to day, and how they conduct their relationships. That's why tapping into these thoughts, and really getting to the bottom of them seems so important to us.
The thoughts actually direct how people live their lives day to day, and how they conduct their relationships. That's why tapping into these thoughts, and really getting to the bottom of them seems so important to us.

Who’s Calling the Shots, Anyway?

RA: I hear what you’re saying. Watching some of the voice therapy that I’ve seen—and we’ll get into voice therapy in a second—a lot of the thoughts that people voice in these sessions sound more like commands or directives.
LF: They often are more like directives and commands. And they really do direct how these people are living their lives. For instance, the voices in the film about relationships [make a link to this DVD], you look at how a man who has a voice telling him that he needs to take care of women marries someone who can barely get across the street by herself, and then he takes care of her and resents her. Or a woman who feels like she has to get a man and hang onto him marries someone who's a child molester and stays with him. It's just really powerful how much people live out these thoughts.
VY: Maybe it would be helpful if you said a little bit about what voice therapy is.
LF: Voice therapy is really a process of giving language to the defensive process that we see the voices representing. So it's a way of getting people to verbalize their negative thoughts, and we have them do it in the format of putting it in the second person. So instead of, "I'm no good," "I'm a failure," "I'll never amount to anything," we have patients put their negative thoughts toward themselves in the second person, as though they were another person speaking to themselves. "You're no good." "You're a failure." "You're never going to amount to anything."
VY: Why do you do that?
LF: For two reasons: One is it helps to start to separate this very negative point of view from a more realistic, compassionate point of view toward the self. The other is that it brings to the surface the affect that goes along with these thoughts. This is not just a cognitive process. These thoughts have a lot of affect associated with them, so a lot of strong anger, rage toward the self, and a lot of pain and sadness come up as well. And even when we have people pair up in adult education classes and say some of their negative thoughts to each other in the second person, the emotion starts to come to the surface.

Patients also find that they start off with the thoughts that they're aware of on the surface. As one therapist described it in our workshop in LA, “You read the ones you wrote down on the paper, and then you just sort of get into a flow with it. And then all this stuff comes out that I didn't even know I really thought.” And what quickly come are the very core beliefs that they have about themselves. Often people will do this and they'll say a number of statements, and then they'll pause. And if you just leave it alone and sit with it, what come next are much stronger core beliefs about the self. So it very quickly brings that material to the surface. Also, when people are verbalizing it in that way, we encourage them to say it with the full emotion associated with it, maybe to say it louder. Often there's a very derogatory, taunting, sarcastic kind of tone to these negative thoughts as they occur. We encourage them to say it with the full feeling behind it, maybe to say it louder. And often, as they're saying it, they take on the accent, the body posture, or the tone of voice of their parent. Their vocabulary changes. Sometimes they change into their language of origin. Someone whose parents came from Eastern Europe switches into their parents' accent. It's a very powerful process. So that's the first step in voice therapy.

The second step has to do with really looking at: where do these thoughts come from? And this is not a therapy where we interpret to the person. We don't say, "Oh, this must be your father's voice; this must be your mother's voice"—first of all, because we don't know; they're the expert in this. Secondly, it's much more powerful for them to make those connections.

Talking Back

RA: And how does that then shift from recognizing where the attitudes about the self come from to actually formulating new attitudes?
LF: I think it's a really important process, because that accountability of knowing where that came from really helps the person get some compassion for themselves. It's not that we want to blame parents. Often, if you really look at it, it came from your parent, and it came from their parent; it goes generations back. And sometimes it's their peers that taunted them, or their sibling who was particularly cruel to them.
RA: So the self-compassion is the first step. And the next?
LF: In starting to break with this way of thinking about oneself, I think it's a very important step. The next step really is answering back. And sometimes if they've gotten into it emotionally, the person will have a very strong feeling of wanting to get angry back at those voices. Often a lot of interesting material about what life looked like from their perspective as a child will come out in their answering back, as well. You get a real picture of what the parent looked like to them when they're verbalizing the voice, and what they experienced as a child in answering back.
VY: This sounds somewhat similar to what occurs in psychodrama, except in psychodrama, rather than saying voices that your parents said to you, you actually roleplay being the parent, or talking to your mother, and then being your mother talking back to yourself.
LF: Right. We try to separate it not so much as a conversation, but really to just have the person fully verbalize the negative thoughts first and go through all of what's there—and then, after making the connections about where they come from, really answering back, emotionally at times. An important part of the answering back, though, is just objectively stating what's true about yourself.
RA: And is that typically when the clients begin to learn how to self-regulate their emotions?
LF: It's a helpful piece of it—and starting to really say who they are and what's true about them. Seeing ourselves as divided is an unpleasant thought, and people often side with their voices, and side with the negative part, and that's their identity: "I really am stupid," or "I really am unattractive," or "I really am" whatever. And answering back can be very difficult.

Starving the Monster

RA: I have a personal question from watching one of the videos. I think that what I was seeing was the first stage—I was seeing a lot of speaking in the second person…
LF: The voices, yes.
RA: …and a lot of encouragement to stay in that voice, to keep speaking in that voice. I’m curious, and I imagine some of our readers might be curious, too: Does that shift in another stage? Does the encouragement for them to speak in the second person and to go to that place, does that shift as the client begins to build their own boundaries around becoming vulnerable and choosing to be vulnerable in that way?
LF: It can shift. The next step in Voice Therapy is to look at how these voices are affecting your life. What actions are you engaged in based on these thoughts? And the next step in Voice Therapy is to collaborate with the person on changing their behavior, to act in their own self-interest, and resist acting on the voices. I think that what happens initially—if they start to act in their own self-interest, or refrain from the self-destructive behaviors so they're acting against the voices—is the voices are going to get louder. That's the first thing that's going to happen. And I always educate people about that. First, they're going to get louder. It's almost like it’s this monster inside of you. Every time you give into it, you're feeding it, and the monster gets stronger and takes more and more control over your life. You want to starve the monster. But the monster's not going to be happy about that. It's going to throw a tantrum. It's going to get louder. And it's almost like a parent yelling at you to get you back into line.
RA: Do you find that the ferocity of the voice dies over time?
LF: If you can stay with that behavior and go through that anxiety, which you're going to feel, the monster is going to get weaker and weaker—almost like a parent that gets tired of nagging and sort of fades into the background.

And it doesn't mean you'll never have that thought again. Particularly, either at times of stress or, conversely, at times when you're acting the most different from the parent in positive ways—out of nowhere, some of those self-destructive thoughts will come up. Something can happen in the person's current-day life, a particular stressor. I think about this financial crisis we're currently facing: somebody who has underlying self-destructive thoughts but has come a long way from that in their life could get triggered back to feeling like a failure, for instance, because their stock went down or they lost all their retirement funds or they lost their job.
VY: In the Great Depression a lot of people jumped out buildings, but most people didn’t.
LF: Yes. And that's actually probably a misconception. According to the research that's been done on it, there were a couple of high-profile suicides you could really link to the Great Depression, but the suicide rate didn't go up dramatically at that time. It was rising slowly at that point and it continued to rise slowly after that, when things got better, too. But certainly when a person has underlying vulnerability… And then there are people that have what David Rudd would call fluid vulnerability for suicide. These are people who have usually had a lot of trauma in their early lives, and they can easily get triggered back into that state of being suicidal, even from things like seeing a method. He talks about a business executive who had had some very serious suicide attempts, but who was doing really well in his treatment and was feeling a lot better. But then he went on a business trip out of town, and the hotel room happened to have a balcony that was over a great height. He went out on it and he had the thought, "Just kill yourself, just jump." And he was like, "Oh, no, my treatment isn't working; I'm a failure." And Rudd said no, you are doing fine in therapy, but even just seeing a method can trigger somebody who has a lot of fluid vulnerability back into that vulnerability.
RA: That coping mechanism’s still alive.
LF: Yes. I would say that self-destructive, incorporated parent is still alive. And it's like somebody with a substance abuse habit who encounters one of their triggers: it can start a whole thought process that could go down that road.

The Impact on Therapists

VY: Have there been studies on what the effect is on therapists who have clients that have successfully committed suicide?
LF: There's not a whole lot of research. There are now support groups online for therapists who've lost clients to suicide. It can be really beneficial for therapists to talk to other therapists who've had that kind of loss. It happens to one in seven people in their training years. One in five clinical psychologists will lose a client to suicide in the course of their clinical career, one in two psychiatrists. And it's not because psychiatrists do a worse job; it's that they tend to see more disturbed patients.
VY: So what have you found in terms of effects it has on therapists?
LF: I think it's all the same kind of effects that there are on surviving family members. I think there's first the shock: it is hard to believe that somebody you care about could actually do this. And if you've been working with the person for a while, there’s often a lot of care and concern you've had for this person, and involvement with them. I think there is a lot of self-recrimination that people go through: “If only I'd done this. What if I had done that? I should have said this.” There's also a lot of anger, of wanting to blame it on somebody else, too. And that can be the family; it could be somebody else in the person's life who did something that wasn't helpful.

For a family member,
if somebody killed your loved one, you'd clearly be angry at the murderer. But when the murderer and the victim are the same person, it's very confusing.
if somebody killed your loved one, you'd clearly be angry at the murderer. But when the murderer and the victim are the same person, it's very confusing. And then there are often fears about, “What does this mean about me and my confidence? What does it mean about me? Could this happen to me?” Family members feel that a lot. Or, “Should I kill myself because I didn't do this or that?” And then there can be a slow process of resolving it, but I don't think it's something you can rush or say it should just be over. It's a process. It's worth getting help with that process, because it is really difficult on an emotional level to lose a client.
RA: And as you said earlier, and I’m sure the support groups would really help with this, but you can’t take responsibility when someone else does it.
LF: Ultimately, you can't. I think there's an idea that therapists can foresee these things with some kind of magic lenses. And about violence potential of clients, too—that somehow, magically, we can do that. I don't think that the research shows that we're necessarily very good at either of those things. But I think we can really be listening and we can be paying attention and take action to help prevent a client’s suicide. And when we have clients that feel like they're a burden, and when they feel like they don't fit in anywhere, and when they have that acquired ability to commit suicide because they do dissociate or they do disconnect from themselves, then you've got a high-risk mixture of somebody who's likely to actually do it.

What’s Up Next, Doc?

VY: Well, we’ve covered a lot of ground today.
RA: Yes.
LF: We have.
VY: And you’ve covered a lot of ground in your career. What’s currently interesting you most?
LF: We’re currently going to write a book about couple relationships—well, about individuals, about learning to love and develop yourself in your capacity to be close and vulnerable and giving in a relationship. People will pick it up because they want their partner to learn how to do all those things.

We have learned the form that these negative thought processes take in relationships—that the voice is really almost like a coach: coaching you to protect yourself, coaching you to take a certain stance toward your partner, not to be too giving, to take control of the situation and not be too vulnerable, to look at all your partner's potential flaws as opposed to focusing on their good traits. And this coaching sounds friendly to yourself—it sounds self-protective as if you're taking care of yourself—but it's often destroying your relationship. And it's really based on a posture of defending yourself and maintaining your original fantasy bond or connection with your parent, and being self-parenting; listening to this voice is really destructive to having the satisfaction and closeness and fulfillment you really could have in a relationship. It's often what destroys relationships. People who are perfectly good choices for one another often play this out in such a way as to destroy the relationship, or to make it a whole lot less satisfying than it could be even if they stay in it. We really want to try to help people with that. We have a couples group we're doing now with some young couples, trying to help them earlier on in their relationship life to be able to stick in there and take back the projections they make onto one another that really have to do with the people they grew up with and not with the person they're with.
It's amazing how much, as partners in relationships, we take on the projections of our partner and really feel like we are that way. And pretty soon we’re reenacting that person for our partner.
It's amazing how much, as partners in relationships, we take on the projections of our partner and really feel like we are that way. And pretty soon we’re reenacting that person for our partner.
VY: So projective identification doesn’t happen only in therapy.
LF: Unfortunately, no. Wouldn't that be nice if we had to walk into a therapist's office to do that? I think we do that with our partners, certainly, because, if you think about it, all the same emotions are triggered. If you look at the attachment research on how early attachments affect your later adult attachments, and if you look at just biochemically what's going on, it's the same kind of hormones and neurochemicals that are being released in long-term relationships as in parent-child bonding. All of those neural pathways get triggered in a close relationship where we want to make ourselves vulnerable, but we're very afraid to make ourselves vulnerable, too. But if people can think about these thoughts that they have, which seem self-protective, as a coach that's actually out to destroy your relationship, not to help you, I think it can be really helpful for people to start to catch on to what they're doing. I think it's a tool that therapists could use to help couples understand themselves better, too, and understand what's going on in the relationship.
VY: Speaking of attachment, it’s time for us to detach.
LF: Yes. I will let you detach. I will go teach.
RA: Thank you so much.
VY: Or as they say in this field, “Our time is up.”
LF: Yes, our time is up, right.

Stephanie Brown on Treating Addictions in Psychotherapy

What happens when people stop drinking?

Randall C. Wyatt: How did you first get into working with people with all different kinds of addictions?
Stephanie Brown: Oh my (laughs), you jump right into it. Okay (sighs). I got in because of my own personal experience with alcoholism and recovery. I come from a family with two alcoholic parents. So I was born and bred in a family of alcoholism and therefore extremely interested in the subject because of my own personal experience.
RW: What experience was that?
SB: I grew up thinking about my parents' alcoholism and worried about them. As a teenager and then as a young adult I got to live out my own addiction and eventually entered recovery. Then I really looked around and asked what's going to happen to me now that I've stopped drinking. I began asking research questions when I was in graduate school in the early 1970s and in my doctoral thesis I asked questions about what happens to the individual who stops drinking.

RW: What kinds of questions did you ask?
SB: I asked: What happens to the children of alcoholics? How do we understand their development? Living with addiction, growing up with addiction, what happens to their normal developmental tasks? What's the impact on them of growing up with addicted parents? What is it like to be psychologically addicted? And then finally, I asked, what's the process of recovery for the alcoholic family, the addicted family, the one in which the alcoholic parent stops drinking?

I entered my own recovery in 1971. I've been very interested in the developmental process that occurs for people once they stop drinking. I developed the Dynamic Model of Active Addiction and Recovery through my doctoral research, which was finished in 1977.
RW: We’ll get back to that in a minute. When you started looking at your own addiction, did that affect your relationship with your parents and their drinking?
SB: Yes, it did. My recovery certainly had an impact on my relationship with my family. It was perhaps the caliber of a seven-point earthquake! There was a breach in my relationship with my family from that point on. I entered my own recovery when my family was still drinking and both my parents were severe alcoholics. My brother was an alcoholic. He's not drinking any longer but both of my parents died drinking. Not quite true. My mother stopped drinking in 2000 when she was 86 years old.
RW: Did you tell them you were going to stop drinking?
SB: When I stopped drinking, I told them what I was doing. They were supportive of me, which was really quite wonderful, especially my father. I think he knew something intuitively and he couldn't articulate it consciously; he knew, even though he couldn't get it for himself.

But what I felt was this radical breach because alcoholism for me and my family was the glue of attachment. It was the umbilical cord for my relationships with all of my family and extended family members. I felt like an orphan and I was treated like one.
But what I felt was this radical breach because alcoholism for me and my family was the glue of attachment. It was the umbilical cord for my relationships with all of my family and extended family members. I felt like an orphan and I was treated like one. Nobody knew how to relate to me since I was no longer drinking; it was the currency of relationship exchange; everybody drank together. Emotionally I was still connected with my parents and cared deeply about them but the bond was severed through my choice to be abstinent. My father died suddenly when I had nine months of abstinence; it was a real trauma for me, the loss of my father.
RW: How difficult it must have been to stop in a system that reinforces drinking and doesn’t encourage stopping.
SB: There was never any acknowledgement in the family that anyone else had any problem with alcohol;
I entered a different reality when I recognized my own alcoholism. Then, my entire world and my reality, the way I looked at myself and others, changed.
I entered a different reality when I recognized my own alcoholism. Then, my entire world and my reality, the way I looked at myself and others, changed. Everything I've written about for all these years has a very central focus on reality and what is reality. In the actively addicted person and family, there is such a distortion about what's real.

The Addiction Accounting System

RW: What do you mean by distortion of reality?
SB: There's a distortion about what's real in relationship to drinking, and therefore everything else. The family needs to protect the drinking in order to be able to maintain and sustain it. So when I stepped out of my family and determined that I was an alcoholic, I entered a different reality and have lived in a different reality for 36 years, in the sense that I could love my parents, I always did, but not share their world anymore. I needed to make that breach in order to survive and progress with my own development and my recovery.
Victor Yalom: You said that by implicitly supporting your abstinence your father had some awareness that his drinking and the family’s drinking was a problem.
Stephanie Brown: I did conclude that. It was never verbalized. I could indeed feel the connection with him and feel the support and later he encouraged me to seek support, to seek help and to stay close to my sobriety support networks.
VY: I think that’s often something that’s confusing to most therapists who don’t come from a background of addiction – that there’s a different reality for alcoholics. Like your father who had some awareness that he had a problem yet did not change.
SB: Correct. That's correct.
VY: So it’s not an either/or situation in the addicted person’s mind.
SB: Oh, that's right. Actually, for years I've taught the concept of "doubling" where you live with two different realities. Doubling is different than denial where you block out one part of reality. Here you live with opposing realities. "I have a problem with alcohol and I don't have a problem with alcohol. I'm fine living with both those identities and realities." And that's what makes working, living, and relating to people who are addicts or alcoholics crazy-making! It's crazy-making because the alcoholic is simultaneously saying,
"Yeah, I probably drink too much, but I'm not out of control and I don't have a problem with drinking."
"Yeah, I probably drink too much, but I'm not out of control and I don't have a problem with drinking."
RW: It seems like there’s a tendency of alcoholics and drug addicts to say, “Well, I have somewhat of a problem, I can handle it, and I’m not an addict since others are worse than me,” and there usually is somebody worse.
SB: Right. I think of it as an accounting system. Every alcoholic has a definition of what it would mean for me to think, "I am an alcoholic."
RW: For example?
SB: For example, an alcoholic is somebody who drinks before five o'clock in the afternoon; many people have that definition to this day. Well, I don't drink before five so therefore I'm not an alcoholic. There are others who say, "Well you know, an addict is somebody who gets admitted to the psych ward; I've never been admitted to the psych ward, I'm perfectly sane so I'm not an addict!"
RW: “I drink beer but I don’t drink hard stuff.” Or, “I drink wine only.”
SB: Exactly! Yet almost every single person on the planet of a certain age knows what an alcoholic or an addict is. Every year I teach elementary age kids and eighth graders and I say,
"What's an addict?" All the kids' hands go up and they say, "You've lost control, and you can't stop." They know what craving is, everybody knows what's an alcoholic and it's "not what I do."
"What's an addict?" All the kids' hands go up and they say, "You've lost control, and you can't stop." They know what craving is, everybody knows what's an alcoholic and it's "not what I do."
RW: What else do the kids say? Sometimes kids speak the truth in simplest terms.
SB: Yes, the kids say, "You can't stop, you've lost control, you've got to do it over and over again." I ask them, "Who here has had a craving?" All the hands go up. "I crave Coke (the soda) and chocolate." I ask them, "What does craving feel like?" and they say, "It hurts." I say, "Is craving painful?" "Yes! It hurts physically because you've got to have it."
RW: And even though you know the alcohol and the drug is messing up your life, ruining your relationships, and hurting your job, you keep doing it.
SB: Correct. You keep doing it. What is, is! You really don't want to do it but you have to do it and you tell yourself that you like it. You tell yourself that you're choosing to drink, that it tastes good, that you love it, that the drugs help you. You tell yourself that it makes you funnier, wittier, sexier, more charming; they keep you going. You keep reminding yourself and telling yourself that you don't have a problem, that you can stop any time, when the reality is that you can't. That's what addiction is.
RW: It’s really not as complicated as we often make it out to be.
SB: And everybody knows it and everybody will tell you why it doesn't apply to them.
In my technical definition, the addicted person denies that he or she has any problem with a substance and then explains why he or she needs it in a way that allows them to maintain the use. You deny, you explain, so that you can maintain using, so you don't have to stop.
In my technical definition, the addicted person denies that he or she has any problem with a substance and then explains why he or she needs it in a way that allows them to maintain the use. You deny, you explain, so that you can maintain using, so you don't have to stop.
VY: So for you, that’s the hallmark of an addict, the loss of control.
SB: The hallmark is the loss of control.

Binge Drinking

VY: So how do you think about situations like college binge drinking? I don’t know the figures but a high percentage of college students go through a period where they exhibit a loss of control of their drinking and it causes problems for them. So by that definition, these people are addicts and alcoholics and yet most of them don’t become chronic alcoholics.
SB: What we're seeing is epidemic numbers of college kids and younger who are out of control.
In many young people, there is no inner mechanism in place to moderate their drinking and they're ending up with the most severe advanced consequences of alcoholism at a young age.
In many young people, there is no inner mechanism in place to moderate their drinking and they're ending up with the most severe advanced consequences of alcoholism at a young age. Not only are they binge drinking but there's so many other drugs on board that tend to create more severe consequences sooner.
VY: But not for all of them.
SB: Not for all of them, correct. So what happened? Why is that?
VY: Well, I guess that is my challenge to you. It seems that in some recovery circles the idea is once someone is out of control with drinking he is an alcoholic. And once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. But I’ve certainly worked with a lot of patients who report to me that in their college, or younger days, they were drinking excessively. They were binge drinking and they may have frequently drank to an excess in their early 20’s, but they’ve grown up in their late 30’s and 40’s and aren’t alcoholics.
SB: Yep, I've seen it too and I think there are a number of ways to explain it. Some people merge with what others are doing around them, into the social norm like eating, smoking, drinking or drugging and the situation triggers them.
RW: It’s a social thing for some people.
SB: Yes, but it's as if it's a social merger phenomenon. There are patterns, in relationships you watch this, where a partner will say "Well, I never used to drink at all but my partner was drinking and I started drinking to keep up. It was going to be drinking with him or get a divorce." So that person becomes addicted out of a need to join with the other. Yet, when the one partner dies of addiction and the survivor stops drinking then that points to it being more social. But just the same they were drinking or using addictively that entire time.
RW: It seems that there is a gradation from a person who is a social drinker, a problem drinker and then an alcoholic. Some kind of 1 to 10 scale. Do you have any thought processes like that?
SB: By the time they are seeking help for it, by the time it's been identified as a problem they are way over the line. Are there gradations? Yes, there are beginning, middle, and late advanced stages and phases and signs and symptoms of alcoholism that have been identified for 75 years. Yet, a lot of what I might be able to identify as a problem with alcohol, most people would say, "That's not a problem, everybody drinks that way."
RW: What is an okay way in your mind for people to drink alcohol that would not be considered alcoholism?
SB: For me, well again, alcoholism is the loss of control so I am not so much into the exact number of drinks as a determining factor. Rather, I look for the signs of people becoming out of control. I look at what people's relationship is to alcohol. Alcoholism is a key primary attachment to the drug, more important than any other attachment the individual has.

If you watch a person's focus on alcohol they turn psychologically, emotionally towards the attachment to the substance. People talk about alcohol as their best friend; people take it to bed with them. They have their primary relationship with their bottle, with their Jack Daniels, with their Jim Beam. Alcohol becomes the central organizing principle for the alcoholic and then it operates in the same way for the family or friends. Getting it, having it, drinking together, sharing it, stopping it, starting it again, and so on.
RW: It’s a way of life.
SB: It's a way of life.
Sometimes you can recognize alcoholics by watching their attachment to the glass in hand. Then it's possible to identify alcoholism before some of the more obvious signs become visible.
Sometimes you can recognize alcoholics by watching their attachment to the glass in hand. Then it's possible to identify alcoholism before some of the more obvious signs become visible.
VY: We live in the Bay Area where wine is such a big thing. How would you distinguish between someone who really loves and appreciates wine from an alcoholic? There are certainly a lot of wine connoisseurs who enjoy wine that are not alcoholics.
SB: That I believe is true, it may be true. What I find, actually, is that sometimes being a wine connoisseur is a wonderful cover for alcoholism. Many people who love wine and have wine collections come in to my office. Do I say that if you're a wine connoisseur, it means you are an alcoholic? Absolutely not! But there is the strong attachment to the alcohol and organizing your life around tasting and having alcohol and socializing with alcohol. So you're going to have a much higher likelihood statistically of alcoholism in a group that is organized around it.

Addiction to Drugs, Prescription Meds, Food, Gambling

RW: I want to ask a few questions about drugs. In what way are drug addictions similar? Take speed for example, or heroin. Do you think of yourself as treating all addictions in a similar manner, or do your ideas just apply to alcoholism?
SB: Everything, absolutely everything. All addictions. In fact, I don't use the word alcoholism as much anymore as I do addiction.
Addiction is substances, behaviors, and relationships. The addiction is behavioral addiction, the loss of control in relation to substances of all kinds.
Addiction is substances, behaviors, and relationships. The addiction is behavioral addiction, the loss of control in relation to substances of all kinds. Legal, which is alcohol or prescription medications; illegal, which are many others such as speed, cocaine, heroine, pot. Legal and illegal drugs can be used together, increasing the dangers of overdose.

Prescription medication is both legal and illegal actually because you're supposed to have prescriptions for them but they are available illegally on the streets, over the internet, on school and college campuses. For many people, OxyContin and Vicodin have become drugs of choice. People are ending up in emergency rooms with dangerous overdoses.

Tobacco is an addictive substance. The behaviors: gambling, out of control sexual behaviors, specific kinds of sexual addictions to pornography and the internet are all kinds of loss of control.
RW: An excessive psychological attachment to these things is an addiction, which is like a relationship. And it becomes bigger than the other things in life.
SB: Correct. It becomes bigger than the other things. You've got to have it. You can't stop. It's repetitive, it becomes a compulsion that drives it and you repeatedly seek the substance or the behavior, the gambling, the pornography, the sexuality, the food and eating behavior that gets out of control. At a certain point addiction becomes almost normative in the culture.

Sentenced Treatments and Addiction Outcomes

RW: Recently California passed a law that said people with drug and alcohol related legal problems can, should, or must undergo treatment before going to jail; do you think that has an impact for the good?
SB: I love intervention at the judicial system level that first focuses on treatment. I think that's excellent, it's outstanding. As far as I know, the programs have been very successful in these first five to eight years. You especially see success when the Justices are on board and have educated themselves. Some of the Justices in Santa Clara County are phenomenal. They're intervening right there with the addicted person and the family and children.
VY: How are the outcomes looking?
SB: In the beginnings of this it would be its own revolving door and the treatment was not particularly informed or sophisticated. It's gotten better. The longer the treatment is the better the outcomes. You're seeing very good outcomes now.
RW: You used the word “sentenced” to treatment but usually in psychologically based therapy we think if the person is involuntary and isn’t motivated, it’s not going to be very useful. How does that affect treatment of substance abusers?
SB: I used to take a stance against anybody being sentenced to anything, but now I'm a convert. I have been converted.
RW: You have had a conversion experience!
SB: Well, because our culture is out of control. They're coming in every door, usually massive numbers of young people coming in through juvenile justice. But so many more people are having criminal contact first because of illegal drug use or the damage and consequences of use. I see that for many people it's the sentencing that speaks the loudest, that carries the biggest stick. If the consequences and the sentences are severe enough, this gives people time in treatment to find their own motivation, and many people do.

More people are coming in my door who are out of control. They're dominated by impulse disorders and they're not functional anymore. Their lives are falling apart and they are trying to get their lives back.
VY: What’s an example of that?
SB: Their everyday lives are so dominated by needing to drink, needing to use drugs, where the compulsion is overwhelming to them 24 hours a day. They may still be working in good jobs but they are careening to the bottom much faster than we've ever seen before. They've got stimulants on board, depressants on board. They have so many medications and they are often prescribed. They're using alcohol and they're out of control. I see people in their 40's, 50's who have up to eight medications and they're drinking. They've got medications to wake them up in the morning, medications to go to sleep at night.
These are people who have lost any sense of who they are apart from their addiction. They have lost any kind of a center of their self that is not connected to their compulsive and impulsive driven behavior.
These are people who have lost any sense of who they are apart from their addiction. They have lost any kind of a center of their self that is not connected to their compulsive and impulsive driven behavior. It's a phenomenon.

What do therapists who don’t specialize in addictions need to know?

VY: As a psychologist and a therapist who doesn’t specialize in addictions, just hearing that sounds overwhelming. What are some basic things that therapists who don’t specialize in addictions need to know?
SB: Well to start, I don't use the term "problem drinking." People often use the term "problem drinking" as the biggest defense. Many therapists who are undereducated about addiction actually collude with their clients. If therapists take a drinking history they will often conclude, "Oh, this person is a social drinker. This person doesn't have a problem with alcohol, this person drinks like I do, maybe a bit too much and needs to cut back some."
There's a long-standing joke in the therapist community that the definition of an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than I do.
There's a long-standing joke in the therapist community that the definition of an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than I do.

The therapist says, "Okay, how much do you drink?" and the person says, "I have a couple of glasses of wine a day." I always put down a "couple of glasses of wine" in quotes because that is everybody's favorite quote.
RW: Or everybody says “a couple of beers,” “couple of martinis” and so on. But one has to distinguish between those that really have a couple and those that have more.
SB: Certainly, but let me give an example. A patient comes in and says, "I have a couple of glasses of wine." I ask, "When do you have that?", and they say "With dinner, I have it to wind down, to relax." The typical therapist makes a note on alcohol, "no problem."

Does the therapist say, "Tell me some more about how you drink, tell me some more about these couple of glasses of wine, how do you think about it, what's been your history with alcohol" and begin to use that first question as a starting point for a much more in-depth assessment of attachment? What you want to find is not just how much the person drinks but what their relationship to alcohol is.
VY: Can you say more about what you mean by attachment to alcohol and how one can discern this in therapy?
SB: Very few therapists will understand that you're looking for the attachment rather than the amounts. What you're going to be listening for are the ways in which the individual focuses on alcohol day to day. Let me play it out here in a conversation so you can see what I mean.

A client comes in one day saying "Jeez, I'm late today" or "I was late to work."

Therapist: Well what made you late?
Client: Oh, I overslept.
Therapist: How come you did that? Is that typical for you?
Client: Well I had a big weekend.
Therapist: Oh, what happened?
Client: Well we partied.

But don't stop there!

Therapist: Tell me more, what do you mean partied?

And later, Therapist: Give me a sense of a day in your life.

Now watch as the addicted client will eventually begin to include alcohol or drugs or whatever their addiction is in their daily activities and way of thinking. People who have an attachment to alcohol tell stories to friends and families about their lives that include alcohol, hoping to see if anyone wants to join them.
VY: Okay, let’s say the person comes in and it’s clear that they have a problem with drinking. There’s enough data that it can’t be hidden. What are some other common mistakes or deficiencies therapists have when moving forward in treatment with addicted clients?
SB: Therapists tend to think, "If I recognize that this person has a problem with alcohol or other substances, that this person is alcoholic then I have to do something about it and I don't have a clue what I as a therapist can do." Most therapists come to me for consultation asking, "How do I make this person stop drinking?" That's the wrong question, the codependence stance, and it makes the therapist want to turn away from the addiction or person. What if you say to this person, "I think you have a problem with alcohol. What do you think about that?" and the person may say, "Well, I'm not coming back here anymore, thank you very much."

So we'll collude together here, agreeing that there is no problem with alcohol and we'll have a very fine psychotherapy and avoid the tough issues.
VY: Again, say we have gotten past this point. The therapist is savvy enough to see that the patient does have a problem but does not have a great deal of training in addictions. Obviously you can’t do an in-depth training in this interview, but what are some pointers that you can share?
SB: On a similar thread, therapists have mistaken beliefs about what the role of the therapist is, the responsibility, or the terrible word, the obligation. And most of the errors occur around that mistaken view that that you're supposed to do something about it once it's diagnosed. You do want to have an awareness about the addiction in the room together. And yet you don't have to make the person do anything.

The therapist's job is to keep the focus on the reality of the addiction and what the person wants to do about it.
The therapist's job is to keep the focus on the reality of the addiction and what the person wants to do about it. How your patient feels about it, sees it, what that person wants to do about it, what is most frightening. Often times a person's family history comes in at this point: "Well, I hate to see myself as an alcoholic, I don't want to be one, and I don't want to go to AA. I'm not going to stop drinking because that would make me like my father."
VY: Okay, then how does the therapist work with this type of client? What do we do when resistance to change inevitably comes up?
SB: In good intensive psychodynamic therapy mode you notice resistance at many levels. The client may resist the identity of being an alcoholic: "Okay I know I have a problem with alcohol, I should stop, I don't want to. I don't want to be an alcoholic." People show resistance to action: "I know I am an alcoholic, but I'm not ready to do anything about it." Then there is the resistance to changing behavior: "Okay, I'm an alcoholic but I'll take care of it myself, and I don't really want to stop, I want to be able to drink now and then." Getting through these resistances one by one to get to abstinence is a process that may take some time in psychotherapy. Now, there are many people, particularly in San Francisco, at the heart of Harm Reduction School who think about this differently.

Brown on Harm Reduction Recovery Models

RW: What are your thoughts on Harm Reduction models of recovery?
SB: Harm Reduction is great; it is an intervention that works in the active addiction stage. My model is the Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery – that is recovery based on abstinence and abstinence only. So my theories are based on people who belong to AA, who have total abstinence and total sobriety, who are not drinking or using anything, so it's a much longer developmental process. Harm Reduction is an intervention in active addiction that is helping people who are continuing to use. It's a completely different theory, a completely different treatment and it can also be incredibly useful and helpful to people.
RW: Can you describe, basically, what Harm Reduction is, since it has become much more popular than in past years in the recovery world?
SB: Harm Reduction is intervening in a way to help people, with all kinds of drugs including alcohol, but it started with methadone maintenance. It aims to help somebody change the level of substance use but not become totally abstinent. You're going to substitute something else that will reduce the harm and enable people to function, to perhaps get off the street, to be in better communities. Many people who have been in Harm Reduction have also used 12-steps, which is inconsistent—they are contradictory, but that is the real world people live in. They are using less of their substances. In a sense, they are reducing the harm; they're reducing the self-destruction, the harm to themselves and others. It's really a terrific help on the way for many people to full abstinence and a 12-step recovery, yet for many people it's not on the way.
RW: It’s where they’re going to stay.
SB: It's where they're going to stay but it's helpful and how could I be against it? I absolutely am an advocate for all of the different kinds of recovery. Now, my definition of recovery includes the 12-step recovery model.
RW: It’s my sense that Harm Reduction could be of use to help some people become social drinkers or less self-destructive drinkers. But for others with chronic alcoholism, in my experience, the Harm Reduction route is just tantamount to pouring the drink for them. It seems like for some people that are in the chronic stage of addiction, their health is affected and their brains are deteriorating, or their life is just so messed up – it just seems like a cycle. It seems like part of that game of addiction.
SB: Well, that's the dilemma for the helper and the person seeking help for anybody at any time in any model.
RW: Good point. That can apply for Harm Reduction or your abstinence model in the real world of people with complex lives.
SB: Absolutely. And the helper at any point should be asking "Am I helping, am I contributing?" In my model, the psychotherapist is always asking, "Am I colluding with the denial here, should I be more challenging?" The therapist is always in the position of not knowing.
We don't get to know whether our particular point of view and our particular intervention is going to be beneficial or not for the person in front of us. We just don't get to know in the moment.
We don't get to know whether our particular point of view and our particular intervention is going to be beneficial or not for the person in front of us. We just don't get to know in the moment. So we have to be maintaining integrity by being willing to ask, "For this particular person, am I helping or harming them?"

The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery

RW: Well said, let’s go to AA now. For you, psychotherapy with an addict seems to naturally involve a recommendation for the patient to be in an AA or a 12-step group of some kind. Can you explain the rationale for that?
SB: My developmental model is a theory of how people change, what happens to people who belong to a 12-step program.
VY: It would be very helpful to briefly state what your developmental model is.
SB:
The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery is a model of transformational change. It's a model of radical change.
The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery is a model of transformational change. It's a model of radical change. The individual comes to recognize "I have lost control," and that recognition is at a deep level. We can call it an emotional level; we can call it a psychological level of knowledge, an epistemological sense of knowing the self or spiritual experience. The person comes to know, "I have lost control" and simultaneously if all goes well, the person says, "I'm an alcoholic."

If those experiences happen, the person may very well be moved via that experience into asking for help. It is the asking for help, reaching outside of the self, no longer saying "I've got to get control of myself" or "I've got to learn how to drink."
The person says, "I can't stop, I need help." It is in the actions of accepting loss of control – I can't stop – and then reaching out for help that the change process begins.
The person says, "I can't stop, I need help." It is in the actions of accepting loss of control – I can't stop – and then reaching out for help that the change process begins.
RW: Is this what people refer to as hitting bottom, or surrendering somehow?
SB: That's the first experience – to hit bottom, to surrender, and to reach outside the self. So people seek help, they go to 12-steps. They then shift their object attachment from alcohol to a 12-step group, or to a treatment or mission- based center. They shift to whatever substitute will take the place so that they are still taking in, they still have an attachment. They begin to go to meetings; they'll get a sponsor. They begin to take in the new object replacement for the substance.
VY: Why do you think this shift is so crucial to recovery?
SB: It is important so that you are not asked to give up your substance for nothing. The recognition is that you need a substitute attachment, so you get it. When you reach out for help, you're going to reach out for a new object that represents recovery. It represents abstinence in the 12-step model and so the process of transformational change is under way with the shifted object attachment and the substitute new behaviors. What are the new behaviors? Going to the meetings, reaching for the phone, being in action to substitute something that represents recovery.
RW: How much does it matter what that attachment is?
SB: I now see a lot of people going into treatment for addiction who are taking so many legal medications. They're making their object attachment to the medication, instead of, "I have hit bottom. I am attaching to recovery." These people are struggling in AA and NA. They're sitting at meetings thinking about, "How's my level of medications, should I up my antidepressants?" They're talking all about the new object attachment to their medications.
RW: Well, I recall that in years past, many in psychology and psychiatry and the AA world would say, “Keep psychiatric drug use in recovery to a minimum and only when necessary,” and it used to be discouraged and used only in particular cases with caution. Now only-when-necessary seems to be almost-all-the-time.
SB: The addiction treatment centers by and large have been wary of medications from day one. And often when somebody enters a formal treatment center, mostly private, they will be taken off as many of the psychiatric medications as possible. Most patients entering any addiction treatments are already on multiple medications. They've been prescribed by psychiatrists, by internists, by family physicians. That's what we see as normative.
RW: Why do they do take patients off their medications in treatment centers?
SB: Because they want to see who's there in the person. They want to start with removal of all mind-altering substances. Then the person will be taken through a medical detoxification, which may or may not include some detoxification medicines. And they go through the assessment process and may be prescribed medication at that point if indicated.

Understanding Therapist Impatience and Frustration in Addiction Work

RW: Most therapists get very impatient with a patient who goes back and forth between quitting alcohol or drugs and using again. How does the psychodynamic, existential or CBT therapist with some training in addictions deal with the impatience and frustration inherent in this work?
SB: I think that, as you said, many therapists get impatient with addictions. This is one of the reasons why therapists would often rather not see people with addictions. Therapists think they have to do something once they diagnose it, but also therapists many times really look down on addicts for their lack of self control or they may simply not understand what is happening.

Therapists, then, may tend to get impatient because they really do sense that the client is shining them on, and it's true that many clients will be in denial and distort and deceive. The therapist needs to look at what is going on in the patient and not act it out in a countertransferential way.
A therapist will get mad at the addicted patient, confront the patient, yell at the patient; tell them to stop doing it, which is an over-reactive countertransferenece response.
A therapist will get mad at the addicted patient, confront the patient, yell at the patient; tell them to stop doing it, which is an over-reactive countertransferenece response.
VY: What should they say instead?
SB: I might say something like, "I can hear your deception. Can you hear it? I hear it day after day. You want me to agree with you. I don't agree. You want me to say, " Yeah there's no problem here.' I hear the problem. You've got so much invested in not seeing what you're doing. You're drinking yourself to death. I'm wondering, what's in the way of your getting this? That you're going to want to do something?" And then I might say, "Here we are looking at it and you don't want to see it; what's it going to take for you to want to deal with it?"
RW: Where is the therapeutic alliance in all of this? How does that play into the work?
SB: This is a therapist who is confronting within a therapeutic alliance. "I am not going to collude with you. I am going to confront you." I'm not going to bash your head in and scream at you, but I am going to challenge you. I'm going to tell you that I'm impatient. I sit here and I hear you being so self-destructive and I hear your deception, your distortion and you want me to go along with it? Can't do it! Not getting on board with it. I'm worried about you. What's it going to take?"

And that's the way in which the therapist maintains the alliance while working with someone who is conning and deceptive and manipulative. If the patient keeps coming to you, that person wants help. Let me add, there are many people who are not conning, deceptive or manipulative. Many people want help and can't see clearly what is wrong and what to do. They need support for seeing clearly and guidance in the next steps. They have to feel safe enough to recognize their loss of control.
RW: So the therapist is confronting by coming alongside the patient by giving the message that “I am for you, yet I’m not going to go along with your self-destructive behaviors and self deceptions and say nothing.”
SB: Exactly. With many people you're dealing with resistance and defense. And the defenses are the thinking distortions, the self-deceptions. The way a person with an addiction says, "I don't have a problem with alcohol, I can stop any time I want, I don't drink before five, and I'm perfectly fine. My problem is my wife, my problem is you, and every time I come in here and every week you want to talk about alcohol. You're my problem."

And I say, "Yep, I'm your problem alright because I'm going to keep talking about alcohol. I think it's your main attachment. I think it's the center of your life. You don't want to see it that way, but I hear it and I see it."

Psychotherapy, AA and Spirituality

RW: Do you think psychotherapy alone can help the person get out of a strong addiction to drugs or alcohol? Or do you think they need a group, AA, or something like that to get attached to?
SB: Therapy alone can help a person make a determination.
Psychotherapy is in fact terrific because people will come through the therapy office door sooner than they will go to AA or go to treatment.
Psychotherapy is in fact terrific because people will come through the therapy office door sooner than they will go to AA or go to treatment. All therapists should be able to help that person coming in the door recognize, "I am an alcoholic. I've got a problem with alcohol." Therapy alone can be incredibly helpful to the person making the decision to stop. I recommend to all people that they use AA, Al-Anon, NA, all the 12-step programs.
RW: What do you value so much about AA?
SB: AA has something that psychotherapy doesn't have. It has the most fundamental shared experience of equality. I think there is nothing like AA for an experience of an equal and shared humanity.
RW: So more in real or everyday terms, what does that mean?
SB: When you come to AA, you find you are an alcoholic amongst other alcoholics, addicts. There is no hierarchy, there's no governing force, there's nothing. You walk in the door and you belong, you walk out the door, you come back. You can attend meetings worldwide. And within that framework, equality is absolutely astounding.

In psychotherapy it's an unequal structure. It's not equal, we're not peers. In any kind of help-seeking framework with the exception of peer counseling there is still the helper and the "helpee", as I call it. Within AA, every single person sitting together is both a helper and a helpee at the same time. You get to experience yourself as being the dependent person needing the help of others and the one who shares your experiences to help others in the same moment.
RW: Now, a lot of people object to AA and they have their reasons; “It’s too public, it’s too religious,” and so forth. But also it seems a certain group of people don’t do well in a group setting like AA where it’s so uncomfortable for them; not just resistance, but they say it doesn’t meet with their mindset, their worldview, or their way of relating in the world. What about those people who it doesn’t seem to work with?
SB: Well, you know what, you said it like most people who are skeptics say it. I hear researchers say, "Well, AA or 12-steps doesn't work for everyone." I want to say, "Wait a minute, it is possible." AA doesn't see itself as trying to be a fit for everyone. It's not AA's job. AA sits there waiting for people to find a way to let AA work for them and it does in fact. It's everywhere in the world. AA is working who can become engaged in allowing it to work for them. So I ask people to reframe the way they think about it. What's in the way for this particular person? What is the individual's resistance to AA?

I tell patients that people are not standing in line waiting to get into AA. No one wants to go to AA. So then how is it that millions of people have found a way to let AA work for them? It's in the individual; it's not in AA.
RW: I would agree with you, I could say much the same thing to that resistance. But at the same time, I think certain people who go to AA hear other people’s stories and it triggers their wanting to drink. If they don’t go, then it doesn’t trigger it. The therapist would be wise to notice these triggers.
SB: I let people know that there are all kinds of meetings and some that just work on steps where no stories are told. I teach people how to use AA. I suggest that everyone has difficulties. I suggest that they go to a meeting, sit by the door and if they can't tolerate it, they should leave. But then come back. It's like desensitization. Come back again and leave when you can't tolerate it. It's recommended that you come in early and stay after because that's how people start to talk to one another. But if you can't do that, don't do it. And as you're sitting in a meeting, listen for what fits for you. Pick out the people that you liked, what they said and don't take anything else. And then go to many different meetings and you're going to sit in a meeting and say, "Well this one feels right," or "I really like that person but I didn't like that meeting."
RW: Some people object to the question of a higher power, some people object because there is a God. And some people say the opposite, that they feel others demean God by saying it’s a door handle, you must have heard that one, but I doubt many people see their God as a door handle.
SB: Yeah, I have heard that one. Let me give you the theoretical view about transformational change and why and how it works. Let me step back a bit to make this clearer.

I define spirituality as dependence; that's what it is to me within the framework of thinking about addiction and recovery. Spirituality is dependence, and the god of the addict is the alcohol. The dependence, the spirituality, is invested in the attachment to alcohol. When that person comes in to AA, the dependency, the attachment is changed to the meeting, to a new sponsor, to the people of AA, to the ideas espoused in AA, to the books and readings. The dependence is transferred to a new object representing recovery.
RW: How does a person’s sense of attachment and spirituality change over the course of their recovery in this model?
SB: Dependency is gratified; spirituality is gratified for you right away. Over the course of the stages of recovery the longer people are in recovery, they move in their development through concrete object representation into much more abstract substituted object relationships. Through working with the steps, perhaps through being in psychotherapy, a lot of people in recovery begin to develop a more abstract concept about what a higher power will mean for them.

So that dependency moves over time, developmentally from concrete object representation to abstract concepts of God. And it's a developmental process.
AA based recovery is organized by the individual at a pace that works for them. All under the control of the alcoholic in recovery. There is no defined God, there is no set scripture, and there is no theology in AA.
AA based recovery is organized by the individual at a pace that works for them. All under the control of the alcoholic in recovery. There is no defined God, there is no set scripture, and there is no theology in AA. There is nothing but the concept of God as the person defines God. It is paradoxically the most control and autonomy possible for most people in the world.
RW: “Academic psychology has believed in the power of self, the power of the ego, the will.”
SB: In terms of the profession of psychology and psychotherapy and spirituality, Freud said religion is an illusion, Skinner and Ellis said belief in a higher power is a neurosis and irrational, and humanists basically said that humans are God in full control of their own destiny, though there is some room for a person to freely choose to believe or not believe. Basically, the three major psychologies have traditionally been highly critical of spirituality and criticize any traditional semblance of a higher power in general.
RW: In terms of the profession of psychology and psychotherapy and spirituality, Freud said religion is an illusion, Skinner and Ellis said belief in a higher power is a neurosis and irrational, and humanists basically said that humans are God in full control of their own destiny, though there is some room for a person to freely choose to believe or not believe. Basically, the three major psychologies have traditionally been highly critical of spirituality and criticize any traditional semblance of a higher power in general.
SB: Absolutely, psychology as a mental health discipline has been more anti-AA than any discipline across the board for the last 50 years. Psychology in the past has worked very hard to disprove and to challenge AA. Nowadays many more of the academic people would like to understand AA and bridge the gap. In my opinion, academic psychology has believed in the power of elevating the ego, elevating the self, the human, to be the ultimate source of power.
RW: Beyond other people, community, and family, let alone spirituality or a God.
SB: Academic psychology has believed in the power of self, the power of the ego, the will. And therefore any human being ought to be able to control their own drinking and that's what academic psychology and psychotherapy have supported.
I look at the addict as the ultimate leveler for all of humanity because addiction says we have limits. Psychology basically has said that human beings don't have any limits. The God of academic psychology is the self.
I look at the addict as the ultimate leveler for all of humanity because addiction says we have limits. Psychology basically has said that human beings don't have any limits. The God of academic psychology is the self.
RW: “You are the captain of your own ship. Chart your own course. Do it yourself with will power.” It is as if therapists and psychologists become do-it-yourself motivational speakers.
SB: That's right! And we will teach you how. So there is a terrific egotism that has grown up within psychology that believes in the elevation of the self and ego as the ultimate change agent.

Integrating Addiction and Psychotherapeutic Work

VY: Well one nice thing about your work and an important one is that you try to bridge the gap between psychologists, psychotherapists and the 12-step world. And you have offered some ideas about what therapists can learn from the addictions world. In that regard, I think it’s also fair to say that a lot of addiction counselors in treatment programs have not taken advantage of the teachings and skills that psychotherapists have developed. What do you think addictions counselors can learn from psychotherapists?
SB: I've said for 35 years, I have a foot in both fields; one foot in psychology as a mental health professional and one foot in the addiction community as an addiction professional. So I live and breathe both and I have tried to be the interpreter back and forth because I believe the fields have been antagonistic when they didn't need to be. For many years in the 70's and 80's the addiction counselors had no training at all and were simply using their own experiences to become counselors. There was a lot of animosity in the 70's and 80's against psychotherapy.

They were right, in many cases, but that has changed dramatically. Addictions counselors, starting in the 80's and 90's, now have to have academic training. There are addictions certification programs that are very solid and based on a lot of mental health training as well as addiction training. They're becoming psychologists and marriage family therapists. So, we're getting a larger and larger group of people who wear both hats.

Yet, where psychology has been willing to say, "Why don't the addiction counselors want to know more about psychology, we'll teach them" – would psychotherapists go to a residency and treatment program for a week to learn about recovery? No, I don't think so.
RW: I think another element to this issue is how therapists view the differences in working with addicted and non-addicted populations. For example, take a neurotic person, or person who is not addicted to anything but is anxious or depressed. They don’t have impulse problems, but they may be overly self-critical and self-conscious and act punitively against themselves, or they may worry too much or be worn down by life. Therapists are used to seeing these types of clients. Whereas the addict is often a person who has impulse control problems and is acting out into the world, is blaming, can be deceptive, destructive and so forth. So for the therapist this is a different world. One requires soothing, comfort and explanation, insight, perhaps transference work, and the other may need confrontation, boundaries, reality work, and direction. They are two very different ways of doing therapy.
SB: That is so well put! That's just a gem the way you stated it. Really nicely put. (I would venture to tell you that you're seeing less and less of that neurotic that you just described coming into anybody's door since the culture is so out of control.) The way you describe it is so useful, that therapists are used to seeing people who are more self-destructive but the addict is acting out externally. Being addicted is the highway of destruction.
RW: The typical psychotherapist knows something about addictions but tends to think that working with people with addictions is very different.
SB: You know what, it's really not that much different. Therapists may think so. If the person has an addiction and some capacity for self-reflection, I'm going to be working in the psychotherapeutic frame and I can work very similar to how you might work with the anxious or depressed person. The same reflection, what it means, how you think about it, what's going on for you; it's the same frame.

With every single person, no matter how out of control they are, I'm sitting they're saying, "What's that about, what do you think is going on?" I never leave the frame of listening and trying to make sense of what is happening in the room. Now, with a particular person who walks in my door, there may be more issues of containment and boundary setting. You have to come back to the addiction if they don't. You have to wonder how it serves them. I may say, "You're drinking the way you're drinking because it's helpful to you in some way. What does it do for you? How does it function for you?"

It's a very similar type of frame to most therapies, but often the countertransference, as I noted, is quite different in the therapist.

The Most Rewarding Part of Addictions Work

RW: We have time for a few more questions only since we know you must get to a dinner. In your experience, do people coming in with addictions to alcohol or drugs get better?
SB: Through these doorways, yes it works. My job and any therapist's job is to recognize when it's not working, when the person is so out of control that they can no longer utilize psychotherapy, which requires the capacity to reflect. Sometimes people are so impulse disordered that there's no reflection, then you can't use psychotherapy anymore, certainly not without more support and structure. Then you have to up for a more intensive level of treatment very quickly. You have to have interventions like treatments programs or through the justice system.
RW: What’s the most rewarding thing to you about working with people who are addicted?
SB: (big sigh, long pause)
RW: Did I shock you with the question?
SB: Yeah (tears up).
RW: Well, I’d like to know.
SB: I'll tell you in a sec. I'm not sure if I have just one thing.
RW: One or more if you like.
SB: This is just the most profound gift for me to work with somebody who wants to change so deeply and is willing to take the steps despite the difficulties. I am moved over and over and over again that anybody ever gets in the door (tears up again). I believe anyone coming in this door wants help and it's my job to not get in their way. So the best gift to me is when they find in themselves the desire and the willingness to take the next step even though they don't know where it's going.

It's all steps of faith and trust and not knowing. You just don't know every single step you take where you're going. I tell you, these people take these steps and are willing. People get well and they trust in me and I always feel moved by that trust. And staying with them to hold the space where they can find it in themselves is just profound.
RW: That is truly profound, and reminds me of what you called the radical transformation.
VY: We wish we could go into more depth into all of your works, but another day, thank you so much for sharing your work and yourself with us.
SB: This has been an amazing conversation, thank you.
VY: Thank you. You have tremendous passion.
SB: I always say I'm the luckiest person in the world.
RW: I can see why.

The Psychiatric Repression of Thomas Szasz: Its Social and Political Significance

Thomas Szasz has been the leading critic of psychiatry for the past 35 years. In this time, his relationship with psychiatry has been problematic and painful. Critics are rarely loved by the objects of their attention. Thomas Szasz has been hated, mocked, repressed, ignored, and ostracized by psychiatrists who fear his critical gaze. This period of psychiatric history, which is not well known, is highly significant for contemporary psychiatry and for the society in which it operates.

The reader should be informed at the outset that I, personally, have been strongly influenced by Szasz to both my benefit and my detriment. I first met him in 1956, when I was a senior medical student and he had just been appointed professor of psychiatry at the Upstate Medical Center at Syracuse. We have been friends and colleagues for—I am startled by the number—almost 40 years. In this time, both psychiatry and American society have undergone profound changes. Some people have blamed Szasz for some of those changes, for example, the deinstitutionalization of mental patients.1 Others would deny that he has had any influence at all on psychiatric thought or practice. They say that progress in biological psychiatry has rendered his writings hopelessly obsolete.

It is incorrect and unfortunate, however, to dismiss the corpus of Szasz's work on the grounds either that he has been a negative influence or that his work is no longer relevant to modern psychiatry. Although Szasz has been in conflict with psychiatry because he is an individualist and a champion of individual rights, he is not an individual thinker. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an individual thinker, in the sense that individuals think in the intellectual paradigms of their times. Thinking is a social activity. Thinkers think in the framework of thoughts articulated before them. They may interpret and express their ideas uniquely, but they nevertheless swim in the intellectual currents of their Zeitgeist. Szasz represents a current of intellectual history. The fact that most psychiatrists dismiss him as irrelevant means that psychiatry rejects and avoids that current.

If some people regard Szasz's work as wrong, obnoxious, or obsolete it is because it embodies a historical set of concepts and values with which they disagree or by which they are threatened. Szasz has written critically of psychiatry because he disagrees with fundamental psychiatric concepts and values. The relationship between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry is shaped by ethical and philosophical conflicts which are rooted in historical and political currents. Understanding these currents will help to illuminate some vexing problems of modern psychiatry and society.

This Historical Context

Students of the sociology of knowledge have long understood that thought is a commodity. Karl Mannheim observed that thoughts have political and social value.2 Some thoughts are enlightening and ennobling while others are false and degrading. Some ideas are congenial and supportive of our particular interests while others are contradictory and threatening. Mannheim, like most social thinkers after Marx and Freud, recognized that individuals and groups are motivated by their desires and interests and tend to support ideas which promote them and to oppose ideas which obstruct them.

History shapes and is in turn shaped by the dynamic conflict between competing desires and ideas. Until the seventeenth century of the Christian era, the prevailing ideology in the West was a cosmology which viewed the world hierarchically. The earth was perceived as at the center of the universe, orbited by the seven visible spheres: the moon, the sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter. Presiding at the pinnacle of this cosmic hierarchy was the Judeo-Christian Sky God, Lord of the World, who governed human affairs through His representatives on earth—kings and popes. They, in turn, ruled by divine right over the descending order of landed nobles and feudal chiefs, soldiers and knights, artisans and merchants, and, at the bottom, peasants and indentured serfs.

In the seventeenth century, this dominant ideology was challenged by the scientific discoveries of men like Giordano Bruno, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and Rene Descartes. In their new, scientific world view, the earth was perceived as only one of six planets orbiting the sun in a universe governed indifferently by the laws of physics. The New Science threatened the knowledge and, therefore, the authority of the prevailing social powers who consequently opposed it and persecuted its practitioners. Bruno was burned at the stake for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun. Kepler and Descartes were intimidated. Galileo was forced to recant it. His works were censored by the Vatican's index of prohibited books until the end of the nineteenth century.

But the medieval cosmology could not withstand the assault of factual knowledge about the world. At the same time that the facts of the New Science were spreading across Europe, the Catholic Church and the monarchies of its Christian empire were disintegrating from the poisonous effects of their own corruption, cruelty, and hypocrisy. A groundswell of political unrest and revolution overturned the authority of the tyrannical rulers beginning in America in 1776, erupting in France in 1779, and continuing around the world until today.

The twin ideals of the intellectual and political revolutions of the European Enlightenment were science and democracy. Jurisdiction over the problems of human suffering and the pursuit of happiness were transferred from religion to science and from church to state. The new social order would no longer be guided by priests, kings, and scripture toward a hoped-for heaven after death. It would now be guided by scientists and politicians toward the utopian ideal of social progress here on earth.3

The decline of traditional religious authority, the rise of the city, and the corollary disintegration of the clan and family left the individual and the state as the new primary units of society. The democratic revolutions embodied a new political spirit of a community of individuals as expressed in the slogan "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity." This new ideology was fueled by the hope for social progress based on faith in science and an economic policy driven by enlightened self-interest under a minimalist state ruled by law. American constitutional government was designed on the template of this ideology. This is the current of history to which Thomas Szasz belongs. Szasz has been labeled a political conservative but he is, basically, a Jeffersonian liberal.

Szasz's valuation of the individual and of individual rights under the rule of law in an open society also has a personal context. He was born Jewish in Hungary in 1920 when anti-Semitic fascism was on the rise. His family was educated and politically sophisticated. They knew that fascism and communism both meant the hypertrophy of the power of the state and the repression of the individual, especially the Jewish individual. Szasz fled Hungary in 1938 together with his beloved brother George. His parents followed later. They traveled overland to Paris and then overseas to the United States, to Cincinnati, Ohio, where relatives lived. Szasz attended the University of Cincinnati and graduated first in his class with a bachelor of science in physics. He then completed his medical education at the University of Cincinnati medical school.

Szasz's conflict with psychiatry has its historical roots in the growth and expansion of the power of the state over and against the individual. The eighteenth-century ideal of enlightened self-interest was, in practice, more selfish than enlightened. The gap between rich and poor grew wider than it had been under the old feudal and monarchic orders. The modern socialist state has hypertrophied to its present leviathan proportions to mediate the conflicts between classes and groups, to replace the historical functions of the declining family and community, and to socialize, educate, and control its members.

As a social institution, psychiatry has historically functioned both in the service of the individual and in the service of the state. This is the root of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and modern psychiatry. Psychoanalysis and psychotherapy developed in the service of the modern, alienated individual to help resolve and relieve the psychological conflicts and emotional pain of secular life. In this manifestation, the psychiatrist is the heir of the priest, the moralist, the educator, and the critic. Szasz belongs to this tradition. He was trained as a psychoanalyst and, like Freud, was more comfortable in the role of the intellectual and literary critic than of the medical physician.

Psychiatry has another face, however. Psychiatry has also allied itself with the state as a covert agent of social control of the individual. This alliance of psychiatry and the state is a historical consequence of the limitations placed on the power of the state by the rule of law. The rule of law limits the power of the state over the individual. This limitation has motivated the invention of a covert, disguised means by which society can control the individual. Psychiatry has served this social function through its state-sanctioned power to label certain forms of deviant or undesirable conduct as illness and by means of involuntary psychiatric commitment which enables the state to detain individuals against their will, without trial or conviction of a crime, in the name of their mental health.

The conflict between Thomas Szasz and establishment psychiatry began in the historical context of the conflict within psychiatry about whether it functions as an agent of the individual or as an agent of the state. Szasz's critique of psychiatry has two elements: first, the critique of the political function of psychiatry as an agency of social control; second, the critique of the ideology which justifies and facilitates this political function, namely, the medical model of psychiatry.

Szasz's Early Work

Szasz inaugurated his critique of the medical model of psychiatry with the publication of the now classic Myth of Mental Illness in 1961. This seminal work has been widely misunderstood and misinterpreted. Many psychiatrists to this day believe that Szasz denies that mental illness exists and even denies that mental suffering and disturbance exist. On the contrary, Szasz does not deny the existence of suffering. How foolish for anyone to think so. Szasz acknowledges the existence of mental illness, but differs from the conventional view of it. The critical point is that mental illness is not a disease which exists in people, as pneumonia exists in lung tissue. Mental illness is, rather, a name, a label, a socially useful fiction, which is ascribed to certain people who suffer or whose behavior is disturbing to themselves or others.

Szasz developed this point of view while he was a student and teacher at the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute under Franz Alexander. Alexander's work focused on the psychoanalysis of psychosomatic disorders. Szasz disagreed with his teacher on fundamental philosophical points which Szasz presented in his first book, Pain and Pleasure, published in 1957. In this book, Szasz critiqued the prevailing tendency to psychoanalyze body functions, imputing meanings to and motivations for physical diseases. Szasz's critique was based on the work of modern English philosophers such as Bertrand Russell, Gilbert Ryle, and Karl Popper.

Szasz's critique of Alexander's work was derived specifically from the empirical and logical dualism developed by Russell and Ryle.5 Russell took the epistemological position that mind-body dualism is based upon an operational dualism. Mind and body are different because psychology and the physics (including biology) are based on different methods of investigation. Knowledge about the body is obtained by means of the methods of physics observation, description, measurement, and mathematical calculation. Knowledge about the mind is obtained by means of communication through language and the interpretation of meanings. Ryle supplemented this view with the argument that, since our knowledge of other minds is based upon the meaning of the actions and speech of other persons, statements about minds and statements about bodies belong to different logical categories of language.

Szasz applied this point of view to the critique of the medical model of psychiatry. The medical model is so called because it views the mind the way medicine views the body, as an object which is explained either in terms of neurophysiology and genetics or in the language of disease, medicine, and treatment.6 In Pain and Pleasure, Szasz argued that it is logically permissible to talk about the meanings of physical disease, in the sense of our reactions to them and interpretations of them. But to talk about meanings as causes of physical disease is to conflate two operationally and logically different concepts. In The Myth of Mental Illness, Szasz moved from psychosomatic disease to conversion hysteria to demonstrate that the classification of thoughts, feelings, and behavior as diseases or as diseased is a logical error. It confuses the logical category of the body with the logical category of the mind. The term "myth," in The Myth of Mental Illness, refers to a category error as described by Gilbert Ryle. Ryle defined a myth as not a fairy story but as the presentation of the f acts from one logical category in the language appropriate to another.

Szasz's first book was not attacked by established psychiatry. In fact, Franz Alexander was so impressed by Szasz's intellect that he offered to make him his heir as Director of the Chicago Institute of Psychoanalysis.7 Szasz turned Alexander down for another offer, as we shall presently see. Szasz came into conflict with psychiatry not so much because of his ideas but because of his values. All his life, Szasz has been the emphatic champion of the values of individual freedom, dignity, and autonomy, which are in conflict with the psychiatric practices of involuntary psychiatric confinement and treatment. This is the basis of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry.

Conflict in the Department of Psychiatry at Syracuse

I can best tell the story of this historical conflict from my own point of view. I believe it is a story that needs to be told and reflected upon. It illustrates how and why intellectual thought is subtly controlled by academic power brokers and, in this case, how the repression of Thomas Szasz and his students reflects the ironic predicament of modern psychiatry.

After graduating from the medical school at Syracuse in 1957, I served a one-year internship in medicine and psychiatry at the Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York. The six-month psychiatry rotation was under John Romano, who was chairman of psychiatry, and George Engel, from whom I learned to read electroencephalograms. In 1958, I returned to Syracuse to do my residency training under Szasz. Dr. Marc Hollender had just been appointed Chairman of Psychiatry at Syracuse, by the good graces and influence of Dr. Julius Richmond, who was then Chairman of Pediatrics. Richmond was a Chicago-trained, psychoanalytically oriented pediatrician who became friendly with Hollender and Szasz when he studied at the psychoanalytic institute. He later became Dean of the Faculty at Syracuse and then Director of Head Start and Surgeon General. Later he moved to the post of Director of the Judge Baker Clinic in Boston. Hollender brought Szasz with him to Syracuse as full and tenured professor of psychiatry. The idea was to form a psychoanalytic training institute at Syracuse with Szasz as the leading intellectual. I was a resident in psychiatry at Syracuse from 1958 to 1961, and was fortunate to have read The Myth of Mental illness in manuscript form and to have discussed it vigorously with a brilliant group of co-residents in Szasz's seminars.

To understand the situation at Syracuse, it is important to recall the intellectual context of psychiatry at that time. Psychoanalysis was in ascendance. It had been increasingly popular among American intellectuals during the 1930s. In the postwar intellectual ferment of the 1950s, it became the guiding theoretical framework of psychiatry. Its derivative, dynamic psychotherapy, was the most popular therapeutic modality. Therapists who did not have psychoanalytic training but who were psychoanalytically oriented practiced dynamic psychotherapy. Psychiatric faculties across the country were recruiting training analysts for chairmanships and professorships with the same enthusiasm, conviction, and exclusivity as they now recruit neurobiologists.

Hollender's idea, as I understood it at the time, was to found a unique psychoanalytic center at Syracuse, unique because it would seek to integrate an interdisciplinary faculty and curriculum. Attempts to integrate psychiatry and psychoanalysis with psychology and the social sciences were very much in the air at the time. Hollender's predecessor, Edward Stainbrook, who was a medical psychiatrist as well as a Ph.D. psychologist, had already invited a variety of social scientists and humanities scholars from Syracuse University to participate in the undergraduate and graduate psychiatry teaching programs at the medical school.

At the time, about 35 years ago, Hollender's vision was avant-garde. It was at the cutting edge not only of psychiatric thought but of the social sciences and humanities, which were heavily influenced by psychoanalysis. Stainbrook had invited Professor Douglas Haring, an anthropologist from Syracuse University, to teach general and psychological anthropology to medical students and psychiatric residents. When Hollender took charge, he hired Ernest Becker, who had recently completed his Ph.D. in anthropology at Syracuse under Haring.

Becker and I quickly became close friends, bonded to each other by a common background as first-generation Jews; by a mutual fascination with anthropology, psychoanalysis, and intellectual history; and a by a mutual love of Italian food and films. Becker attended Szasz's seminars for psychiatric residents and began to read extensively in psychoanalytic literature, hoping to integrate psychoanalytic theory with current work in psychological anthropology. In 1961, I completed my residency and, at Hollender's invitation, joined the full-time psychiatric faculty. Gradually, Becker and I shaped a common vision which seemed to be in harmony with Hollender's vision of an interdisciplinary psychoanalytic center, namely, to bring modern knowledge from the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, and philosophy to bear on a new understanding of the forms of mental suffering which are designated as mental illness. Toward this end, I took a master's degree in philosophy at Syracuse University and also taught the sociology of personal development and deviance under Paul Meadows.

The next few years were intellectually productive for Szasz, Becker, and myself. Szasz followed The Myth of Mental Illness with Law, Liberty and Psychiatry, the third of 25 books he has published to this date. Becker wrote the first edition of The Birth and Death of Meaning, in which he attempted to integrate psychoanalytic and anthropological concepts of human personality development. Next, he wrote a potentially seminal book which, tragically, has been widely ignored by psychiatrists, The Revolution in Psychiatry. In this book, Becker adopts the eclectic spirit at Syracuse and the spirit of Szasz's critique of the medical model by initiating a project for the development of a nonmedical, interdisciplinary view of such alleged mental illnesses as schizophrenia and depression. I recommend this book highly to those interested in a fresh and non-reductionistic view of depression and schizophrenia. Becker's hopes for the development of a new humanistic science were dashed by developments at Syracuse, but he continued to write as he pursued the painful career of a peripatetic intellectual.

For my small part, I published in two directions. I wrote a number of articles critical of the legal and social functions of psychiatry.8 At the same time, I was working with Ernest, in the context of our friendship, toward an interdisciplinary, nonmedical understanding of the various psychiatric diagnoses. In this period, I wrote a nonmedical formulation of the problem of phobias.9 I was in the process of developing an introductory textbook of psychiatry for a course taught to sophomore medical students. I was also writing a political and sociological critique of psychiatry, which appeared in 1969 as In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry.

The dark clouds of conflict soon appeared on the horizon, however, and the dream of a school of autonomous, interdisciplinary intellects striving together to understand the problems of human life vanished in the storm.

In 1962, after The Myth of Mental Illness had been published, Szasz testified in the Onondaga County trial of John Chomentowski. Mr. Chomentowski owned a small gasoline station which he sold to a prominent real estate developer. When the developer tried to take over the property earlier than had been agreed, Mr. Chomentowski threatened the company's agents with a shotgun which he fired into the air. He was arrested and the prosecutors, aided by testimony of government psychiatrists, convinced the court that Chomentowski was not mentally competent to stand trial. Chomentowski was then committed to Matteawan State Hospital for the Criminally Insane, in spite of the fact that he had not been convicted of a crime. Szasz testified at a habeas corpus hearing in which Chomentowski was suing to gain his freedom from confinement. The trial, which I attended, was a highly anticipated event in psychiatric circles, since for the first time Szasz was in an adversarial confrontation with conventional psychiatrists in a public forum.

Szasz's testimony was eloquent, witty, and bold. Testifying for the defendant, he stated frankly under questioning that he did not believe that mental illnesses are true medical diseases but, rather, are psychiatric fictions. He believed that mental hospitals are prisons and that, in effect, Mr. Chomentowski had been imprisoned without having been convicted of a crime. He translated the state hospital psychiatrists' psycho-babble testimony into ordinary language with devastating effect. What the psychiatrists called psychotic aggression Szasz called anger at false confinement. What the psychiatrists called psychotic withdrawal Szasz translated as the unwillingness to consort with one's enemies. What the psychiatrists called contractions of his blepharal and facial muscles Szasz called "blinking." The state psychiatrists from Marcy State Hospital in nearby Rome, where Chomentowski was being held for examination and trial, were humiliated and angered.

Present in the courtroom was Abraham Halpern, then Commissioner of Mental Health for Onondaga County. He sat at the prosecutor's table, coaching the District Attorneys. He felt outraged by Szasz's testimony and made his feelings known. His protests reached the ears of the State Commissioner of Mental Hygiene, Dr. Paul Hoch. Simultaneously, the state hospital psychiatrists complained to the director of their hospital, Dr. Newton Bigelow, who was also editor of the then-prestigious psychiatric journal, The Psychiatric Quarterly. Bigelow published an article in his journal condemning Szasz, "Szasz for the Gander."(10) In response to the complaints by the state psychiatrists, Dr. Hoch issued an order banning Dr. Thomas Szasz from teaching psychiatric residents at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. To understand the significance of this order, it is necessary to know how Hollender's department of psychiatry was set up.

Hollender had a dual appointment as both chairman of the department of psychiatry at the medical school and as director of the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital, which was a state hospital. In addition, many of the faculty of the department of psychiatry also had joint appointments as visiting staff at the hospital, including Szasz. This arrangement was and is today quite common. Many of the faculty of medical school departments of psychiatry around the country are also directors or staff of government-run hospitals. The critical fact in this case is that Hollender decided to locate his office for both positions at the state hospital. Using state funds, he constructed for himself a very comfortable office at the hospital from which he conducted departmental business. In addition, Hollender refurbished a meeting room at the hospital where the department held its weekly scientific and faculty meetings.

When Szasz was notified that his appointment as visiting psychiatrist at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital was terminated, he boycotted the hospital, including the departmental meetings which were held at the hospital, on the basis that if he was not permitted to teach there, he should not attend teaching clinics conducted there. This created a conflict between Szasz and Hollender which split the department apart. Several faculty members, including the psychologists Ed Engel and Charles Reed, Becker, and myself joined Szasz in boycotting the hospital. Those who joined the boycott did not all necessarily agree with Szasz's analysis of the concept of mental illness, but they all found unacceptable the attempt by an official of the state to censor and repress a member of an academic faculty.

Hollender responded by offering to move the scientific faculty meetings to the medical school. This did not satisfy Szasz or other members of the faculty, however. They believed that Hoch's and Hollender's repression of Szasz made it clear that the teaching faculties of an academic department of psychiatry must be autonomous and independent of the state or the freedom of inquiry and expression would be jeopardized. They requested that Hollender choose between being director of the state hospital or being chairman of the department of psychiatry. If he was to continue as chairman of psychiatry, he should resign as director of the hospital and move his office to the medical school.

Hollender declined to choose. He took the position that the state hospital was the flagship of the department and he was admiral of both. Interpersonal tensions in the department intensified. Szasz's supporters took seriously the threat by the state to intimidate and repress academic faculty. Most of the faculty who had joint appointments at the medical school and the Syracuse Psychiatric or the nearby Veteran's Administration Hospital, which also had a closed ward with involuntary patients, were hostile toward Szasz. They rejected his critique of the medical model and believed he was creating unnecessary conflict. Some people believed that Szasz should not even be allowed to teach The Myth of Mental Illness to students, interns, and residents at the medical school. The conflicts were both personal and ideological, the one fueling the other until the department was divided into two hostile camps.

Some members of the faculty contrived a secret scheme to lure Szasz into insubordination so they could fire him in spite of his tenure. One principled member of the group, Dr. Richard Phillips, withdrew and notified Szasz of the attempt. Szasz hired a young lawyer from the local law school, George Alexander, later dean of the law school at the University of California at Santa Clara, to defend him against his accusers. The dean of the medical school, Carlysle Jacobsen, appointed faculty committees to investigate the conflict. The AAUP committee, chaired by Dr. Peter Witt, found that Szasz's academic freedom had, indeed, been violated.

Hollender was exasperated by this conflict, which had stalled his quest for psychiatric empire. One day, Hollender telephoned Becker to request his appearance in Hollender's office at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. Some medical students had asked Hollender whether the psychiatric teaching program had been compromised by the conflict between him and Szasz. Hollender asked the students where they had heard such a story. They told him they heard it from Becker. Hollender was indignant. He accusingly demanded to know from Becker whether he was warning prospective interns and residents away from the department.

I was present when Becker returned Hollender's call. We had discussed how he might respond. Becker told Hollender that he would not meet him at the hospital because he was not on the staff of the hospital, he was on the faculty of the medical school. The administrators of the hospital had banned a faculty colleague from teaching there and so he would prefer to meet Hollender at the medical school. Hollender refused and, once again, ordered Becker to come down to Hollender's office in the state Hospital. Becker refused. Hollender fired him on the spot!

On the one hand, Hollender might seem to have had some justification for firing Becker on the grounds of insubordination. On the other hand, Becker was one of Szasz's most vocal defenders. His ideas and writings were influenced by or were in harmony with Szasz's views. Becker was even interviewing a few patients by Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital under Szasz's supervision. Firing Becker was a way for Hollender to strike back at Szasz.

After leaving the medical school, Becker had a tragic-glorious peripatetic career.11 He spent 1965 in Rome writing what he thought would be his monumental work, The Structure of Evil.12 He then returned for a one-year appointment in the department of anthropology at Syracuse University, sponsored by his close friend Professor Agehananda Bharati. This was followed by a second year in Sociology, hosted by his friend Professor Paul Meadows, who was chairman. The following year, Becker replaced Erving Goffman at Berkeley on Goffman's recommendation. He won a brief moment of fame there when he was written up in Time magazine because the student body at Berkeley petitioned for Becker to be rehired, and, in an unprecedented move offered to pay his salary out of the student organization's treasury. But the university refused. It would have been too dangerous for them to rehire a professor who was a social critic and also popular with the students at time of political protest and upheaval.

Becker then moved across the bay to San Francisco State University where he worked happily until 1968, when S.I. Hayakawa, then president of the university, called police on campus to repress student demonstrations against the war in Vietnam. Becker resigned in protest in a heroic gesture, since he had three children and no prospect of any job elsewhere. The only offer he received was from Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada, where he remained in exile until his premature death from colon cancer in 1974.

Two months after he died, Becker was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in Nonfiction for his book The Denial of Death. This highly prestigious award represents the recognition by the literary community of the high merit of Becker's work. Yet Becker has never been recognized by establishment psychiatry in spite of the fact that he wrote continuously on psychiatric issues from his days in Syracuse until he died. His work has been totally ignored. To establishment psychiatry, Becker was tainted by his association with the reviled Szasz. In effect, Becker was indexed and repressed. He was the victim of modern society's favorite method of repressing its critics—what the Germans call Todschweigen (Tod = death; schweigen = silence)—death by silence.

After Becker left, I continued as an assistant professor at the department of psychiatry, teaching, writing, and speaking my mind on a variety of psychiatric issues, including the social functions of psychiatry and nonmedical conceptualizations of the problems of human suffering. During this period, I completed the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health. In 1966, frustrated by his hostile standoff with Szasz, Hollender resigned as chairman of the department and was replaced by Dr. David Robinson, an ally of Hollender's who even more vehemently opposed Szasz's critique of psychiatry and the concept of mental illness.

The department was still trying to continue its liaison with social scientists and other scholars from Syracuse University. A committee was formed, of which I was an appointed member whose job was to nominate social scientists from Syracuse University to teach the psychiatric residents and interns. I taught at Syracuse and knew the faculties of the social sciences and humanities, and I nominated Ernest Becker and Stanley Diamond, an outstanding anthropologist who later became professor at the New School, as the best suited to teach medical students and psychiatric residents. My colleague on the committee, Dr. Robert W. Daly, now Professor of Medical Humanities at the Health Sciences Center at Syracuse, agreed on these nominations, as did Dr. Bradley Starr, chairman of the committee, although Starr was doubtful that Robinson would approve of either of these men.

A few days later, Starr informed me that Robinson had indeed vetoed both Becker and Diamond as candidates to teach the psychiatric residents. I could understand why he vetoed Becker. Hollender, although no longer chairman, was still in the department and it would have been awkward for him to face Becker. I could not imagine, however, why Robinson objected to Diamond, who had nothing to do with Szasz or the Szasz affair. I protested to Starr. The next day, Robinson burst into my office and announced that he did not intend to renew my appointment. Since I was a junior faculty member without tenure, this meant, in effect, that I had been fired.

I appealed to the local and national chapters of the AAUP on the grounds that, although I did not have tenure, the university did not have the right to dismiss me because of my views. They could fire me without reason, or for such justifiable reasons as insubordination, dereliction, incompetence, or flagrant immorality. But they could not fire me because the chairman opposed my views, my speech, or my writings.

In a meeting with Dr. Jacobsen, Dean of the Faculty at the medical school, Robinson said he would not renew my appointment because he "did not need two French professors in his department," meaning that he had been sufficiently provoked by Szasz and did not want another thorn in his side. In other words, everyone else in the department could share Robinson's views, but if I shared Szasz's views, I was excess baggage.

To my further amazement, Robinson boldly admitted that he did not want me on the faculty because he did not want my book published while I was a member of the department. He said that he was afraid that with both Szasz and me writing, publishing, and teaching our heretical views, the department at Syracuse might become known as "anti-psychiatry" and might not be funded by the NIMH, with obvious unpleasant consequences for him and the department. Jacobsen, acting in the great tradition of academic administrators, chose to avoid conflict with a department chairman. He imposed a compromise. He conceded that the department had fired me without adequate notice since Robinson had fired me in March effective the following September while AAUP regulations provided for one year's notice to give the rejected member time to find another job. So Jacobsen gave me a six-month extension on my appointment—a delay of execution.

On another occasion, Robinson arrogantly admitted to me that he did not want either Becker or Diamond to teach in his department because he believed both men were eastern radical-liberal troublemakers who were stirring up dissent by participating in civil rights and anti-war protests. The implication was clear that Robinson believed that I, too, was a member of this group of traitors.

Becker and I were both victims of the psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz. In my view, Robinson, Jacobsen, and the State University abridged my First Amendment rights of free expression. If one believes in the value of ideas and the right to express ideas, which is supposedly protected by the First Amendment, this is a serious matter. I do not think that my experience is unique. I saw a generation of brilliant intellectuals driven off university campuses because they studied and talked about Marx or some other out-of-favor thinker, or because they fought in the civil rights and anti-war struggles of the 1960s. In my view, the same situation exists today in universities and medical school departments of psychiatry. I do not believe thought is free in America. Thought is a controlled substance, repressed and regulated by representatives of various prevailing interests. Many of my friends on the medical school faculty were horrified by this situation, but felt powerless to do anything about it. The AAUP committee of the medical school, after painful debate, decided not to challenge the administration on constitutional grounds.

It was a painful experience, but my fate, or that of Becker or Szasz as individuals, is relatively insignificant in the scheme of history. More significant, it seems to me, are the questions of whether the right to the free expression of ideas was violated at Syracuse and, if so, what are the motives and consequences of such repression?

We can only speculate what course psychiatric history might have taken had Szasz not been repressed and had Becker and I not been fired from the medical school at Syracuse. Our dynamic trio would likely have attracted at least a few interested students. And some of these students might have matured, made their own unique contributions, and, in turn, drawn more interested students. Possibly, a school of thought might have developed at Syracuse which would provide a critical alternative to the current ideological hegemony of contemporary medical-coercive psychiatry.

As it is, neither Szasz, Becker, nor I have had any students, in the sense that most university professors and elders of various intellectual traditions usually have the opportunity to teach and guide their heirs of the next generation. After the crisis with Hollender was resolved, Szasz remained at Syracuse as full professor, but out of the spotlight and off stage. He was not asked and did not volunteer to teach psychiatric residents. He no longer presented papers or participated in the discussion at faculty meetings. He wrote and published prolifically, traveled and lectured widely and frequently, but was silent at Syracuse.

I too was, in effect, blackballed from academic psychiatry. I applied for faculty positions elsewhere, but I was condemned by my association with Szasz and by the evidence of my own writings. I submitted the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health to Basic Books. They accepted and I went to Mexico on an extended adventure. When I returned, the editor at Basic Books, Irving Kristol, called me and withdrew the offer. Basic Books would have to reject my book, he confessed apologetically, because the psychiatrists to whom they gave the book to review were so outraged by it that they threatened to boycott Basic Books if they published it. Todschweigen! I was repressed and negated by psychiatrists who threatened to boycott my prospective publisher.

I have spent the last 30 years in the glorious isolation of private practice, continuing to study and write, striving to develop a nonmedical view on the problems of mental and emotional suffering. Having been disillusioned by the coercive and repressive influences in Western psychiatry and psychology, I turned elsewhere for insight and understanding. Over the years, my interest has increasingly turned to a study of the Buddhist view of mind.

Over the past 20 years, I have studied under several distinguished Tibetan Lamas, particularly Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, Abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, a Karma Kagyu monastery near Woodstock, New York. I was one of the organizers of the first Karma Kagyu Conference on Buddhism and Psychotherapy at International House in New York in 1987. I invited Tom Szasz and R. D. Laing to be two of the main Western speakers at this conference. For the past two years, I have been a student at the Namgyal Monastery Institute for Buddhist Studies in Ithaca, New York, which was founded by the Dalai Lama. I have just completed a comparative study of Buddhist and Western views on suffering and the causes of suffering, called The Happiness Project.13 I am now working on a manuscript on the emotions as viewed from a combined Buddhist and Western perspective.

In my view, obviously textured by my own personal experiences, the events at Syracuse are significant because they represent the repression and abortion of a school of ideas. I believe that ideas are important. E. A. Burtt once wrote that the concept a people has of its world is its most important possession. How we see the world shapes how we act in it. The repression of Szasz at Syracuse is symptomatic of a society which, like Oedipus Rex, blinds itself to the truth it does not want to see.

Szasz was banned from the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital because of his views and his values. In contrast to the followers of the medical model, Szasz acknowledges and appreciates the differences between mind and body, and does not try to reduce the former to the latter. Unlike most modern psychiatrists, Szasz opposed the common practice of oppressing individuals through psychiatric labeling and involuntary commitment.

Szasz was repressed because his critique of the medical model threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists. Becker and I were fired not simply because we defended the academic freedom of a colleague, or even because we were friends of Szasz. We were fired because we were writing and publishing prolifically and thus also represented a threat to psychiatric ideology and psychiatric identity. In my view, the events at Syracuse constitute the control and suppression of thought for social and political purposes, something we assume does not happen in this country, but which happens so persistently and inexorably that we choose to ignore it.

The Significance of the Psychiatric Repression of Szasz

What is the significance of the repression of Thomas Szasz and the possible abortion of a critical school of thought in psychiatry? To probe this question, we must trace the recent history of psychiatry. In the early 1960s when Szasz was first repressed, psychiatry was at a crossroads, a crisis of identity. The psychoanalytic tradition had reached the zenith of its influence and several formidable problems had been exposed. Psychoanalytic therapy had become the most powerful and most popular form of treatment of mental illness. The problem was that it is a nonmedical treatment. It can be practiced equally well by psychologists, social workers, and other skilled nonmedical professionals as well as by physicians. The increasing number of nonmedical psychotherapists not only threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists, it also threatened the economic interests of psychiatrists by competing for psychiatric patients at a lower fee. A second and related problem was that the basic sciences of psychoanalysis are psychology and the social sciences. A sophisticated spectrum of neo-psychoanalytic, nonmedical theories of mental illness was under development by men like Erving Goffman, Norman O. Brown, and particularly by the French existentialists. Szasz, with his reinterpretation of conversion hysteria in The Myth of Mental Illness, Becker, with his new theories on schizophrenia, depression, and the neurotic sexual fetishes, and my contribution on phobias14 were on the frontier of this development.

The problem for psychiatry was that its medical identity was being eroded by psychoanalysis. Szasz's critique of the medical model and of coercive psychiatric practices was perceived by medical psychiatrists as an added threat to their legitimacy. Medical doctors in other specialties were growing increasingly skeptical that psychiatrists were really kin under the sheepskin. Nonmedical therapists, often well trained and competent, were competing with medical psychiatrists for fees. Psychiatrists who worked for the state, particularly those who worked with involuntary patients in mental hospitals or clinics and who adhered to a Kraepelinian model of medical diagnoses, were becoming increasingly hostile toward psychoanalysis and psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrists in private practice.

Over the years, psychiatric anger toward Szasz and those who agree with his point of view has been further provoked by the mental patient's survivor movement. The medical- coercive psychiatrists and their sympathizers have come increasingly under criticisms and attack by survivors of psychiatric abuse—victims of involuntary confinement and forced drugging and electroshock.15 We have recently become more sensitive to the endemic horrors of sexual abuse and child abuse, thanks to the media. However, we have not discovered, or have not yet been willing to admit, the degree of endemic psychiatric abuse by means of involuntary confinement and forced treatment. Our denial is reinforced by psychiatrists who regard the victims of psychiatric abuse as mentally ill and therefore incompetent to form valid feelings or complaints. This is similar to saying that a rape victim asked for it. The mental patient survivors and self-help movement is autonomous and driven by its own motives, but it has, over the years, been inspired and supported by Szasz, Peter Breggin16 (a student of Szasz's and mine at Syracuse), me, and other critics of coercive medical psychiatry. This has contributed to the psychiatric anger toward Szasz and his supporters.

Hollender embraced both sides of this inner conflict of psychiatry in that he was both a psychoanalytically trained chairman of an academic department of psychiatry and a director of a state hospital. The situation at Syracuse was representative of the conflict within psychiatry as a whole and, thus, was primed and ready for the explosion that occurred.

At the same time, other developments in psychiatry were strengthening the hand of those who subscribe to the medical model. The era of tranquilizers had arrived with the introduction of Thorazine in 1954. The success of the new tranquilizers in controlling the inmates of psychiatric institutions was exploited by medical psychiatrists to bolster their argument that mental illnesses have a biological basis. Increasing funds were invested by pharmaceutical companies to develop new anti-psychotic and antidepressant drugs and the NIMH increasingly favored research to study the safety and efficacy of these drugs, thus underwriting the medical model.

As narrowly funded research seemed to confirm and explain the efficacy of psychoactive drugs, the false impression was created that psychiatry had become an objective, quantifiable, "hard" biological science. As new generations of drugs were developed, the pharmacological treatment of mental illness appeared to be more cost- effective and became more popular. This trend has continued to the present day, when, under managed care, drug treatment of mental illness is the preferred modality and psychiatrists are now primarily trained as psychopharmacologists rather than as psychotherapists. Psychotherapy has largely been taken over by nonmedical therapists! This is the historical context of the conflict between establishmentarian, medical-model psychiatry and its critics such as Szasz, Becker, and me.

But the pendulum of history may now be swinging the other way. The biological approach to mental illness may have reached a point where its weaknesses, problems, and contradictions are becoming clear, just as they did after psychoanalysis was in vogue for a few decades. The biological model of mental illness has been successful, in part, because it has identified itself with modern science and, thus, basks in the prestige of modern science. Present-day psychiatric theories assert that mental illness is basically brain disease, that schizophrenia and depression are basically caused by genetic predisposition to "chemical imbalances"—excessive dopamine in the case of the former and insufficient serotonin in the case of the latter. This point of view helps to solidify psychiatric identity as medical and carves out for psychiatrists a monopoly on the pharmacological treatment of mental illnesses.

Present biological theories of mental illness, however, are highly problematic. In the first place, they are incomplete, because they are biological, reductionistic, and ignore the psychological dimensions of human experience and thus ignore what is most characteristic of and fundamental to the human experience. Secondly, they are weak in themselves, having been deduced entirely, and not entirely logically, from the actions of tranquilizers and antidepressants on neurotransmitters.

The fact that Prozac, for instance, which boosts intersynaptic serotonin, can help lift depression does not logically imply that the depression is caused by low brain serotonin. It may equally well be, and is in my opinion more likely, that the individual's psychological response to life events conditions the levels of brain serotonin. In spite of the strident brain reductionism of modern biological psychiatrists, there is strong scientific evidence that experience influences the brain's physical structure and development. Spitz's famous studies showed that babies will die without sufficient love. Children will lose their capacity for speech if they have not learned to talk by a certain age. A crowd of sports fans in a frenzy over the last-minute victory of their team will undoubtedly have elevated blood catecholamines. Is their excitement due to the elevated catecholamines or to the thrill of victory?

While psychiatrists are publicly engaged in a media blitz to propagandize the idea that mental illnesses are medical diseases which are treatable with medications, privately they admit that their research is flawed and their theories are, as yet, unproved. Every few years they convene a committee to write a new diagnostic and statistical manual (DSM), in which the primary proof of the existence of the diagnostic categories of mental illness is that psychiatrists, who train each other to see them, believe they exist. Natalie Angier, science writer for the New York Times, says what no psychiatrist will publicly admit: that they "want badly to transform their discipline into a hard, quantifiable science that is on a par with molecular biology, or genetics, but they have often been frustrated. Every time they think they have unearthed a real, analyzable gene to explain a mental disorder like manic depression or alcoholism, the finding dissolves on closer inspection or is cast into doubt."17

To make matters worse, psychiatry bears the historical guilt of having purged itself of critics. No supporter of Szasz's views on mental illness would be appointed to full-time position by an academic department of psychiatry to teach psychiatric residents. I know this from my own personal experience. In spite of his international reputation, Szasz's papers are routinely rejected by psychiatric journals. He has, in effect, been excommunicated.

“As a result of the persecution of Szasz at Syracuse and elsewhere, there are no critics of psychiatry from within its ranks. This, in itself, should disqualify psychiatric theory as scientific.” The essence of scientific method is critical inquiry. The basic principle of scientific discovery is the null hypothesis, that is, the hypothesis which, when it is advanced, is presumed to be false and is subject to exhaustive testing, checking, and criticism before it is even accepted as provisionally valid.

Psychiatric thought more closely resembles political ideology than it does science in that it is presented and certified by a power elite, the psychiatric establishment, who promote and propagandize their views as official dogma and who dismiss, exclude, and persecute dissenters. Psychiatric thought is not the product of a free market of ideas. It is carefully controlled and disseminated. And it serves the economic and psycho-social interests of those who purvey it by promoting their medical identity and justifying their right to receive part of the national health care budget. This does not mean that the costs of alleviating the emotional sufferings of life should not be distributed equally through insurance programs, whether private or public. It means that if we distort our perception of the problems of life by viewing them as medical illnesses, we are disabling our abilities to deal with these problems effectively in order to justify the sharing of its costs.

The persecution and repression of Thomas Szasz and his school of thought, and the corresponding supremacy of the medical model of mental illness, presents two critical problems, one for psychiatry and the population it serves and the other for society as a whole. An exclusively biological approach to problems of mental suffering and disability is, at best, partial and incomplete and, at worst, disempowering and disabling to the consumers of mental health services. It sends the explicit message that people are not responsible for the forms of suffering which are labeled as mental illness.

There are certain kinds of suffering for which the individual cannot be held responsible, and others for which he or she can. Certainly, people are not responsible for their medical illnesses, except in cases where they are self-induced, like cancer of the lung from smoking cigarettes. On the other hand, there is a degree of suffering that we cause ourselves because of our ignorance, our selfishness, our greed, and our aggression.

Ancient wisdom teaches that a portion of our suffering is the result of defects of moral character. The Greeks, too, knew that character is fate. Sophocles said that "the greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves."18 The Judeo-Christian Bible is a book of ethics based on the belief that evil-doing is punished with suffering and virtue is rewarded with happiness. The moral teachings of the Judeo-Christian prophets, on which the values of Western civilization are based, tell us, in effect, that although life is a "valley of tears" we are, nevertheless, responsible for some portion of our suffering.

We are responsible, at least, for how we suffer, for example, whether we suffer patiently, like Job, or with aggression. We are also responsible for that portion of our suffering that we cause ourselves. We are responsible for the consequences or our words and deeds. This is the law of Karma, or, as the saying goes: "What goes around comes around." These are profound moral teachings and they are compatible with the view of most modern psychotherapists, who, whether or not they believe in the medical model, practice therapy on the assumption that we can increase our measure of happiness through self-knowledge and self-discipline.

Innumerable patients have come to me with the complaint that they have a "chemical imbalance." They have been told by other therapists, or have heard in the media, or have read in misleading NIMH pamphlets, that their sufferings—their depression, their anxiety, their guilt, their anger, their enthusiasm, their addiction to drugs or food, their obsessions and compulsions—are due to biochemical imbalances in their brain. They have no idea what these chemical imbalances are. But they believe they are the cause of their misery. As a result, they have not the slightest insight into or interest in the way in which their mental attitudes, orientations, and responses to life events cause their suffering and symptoms. They have become blind to the human dimensions of their lives, to the nature of their own experience, and thus have handicapped their ability to deal with the problems of life.

By discouraging people from taking responsibility for themselves, for their own behavior, emotions, and modes of thinking, biological psychiatry contributes to the current political atmosphere of the dissipation of moral values and the abandonment of personal responsibility. In this century, we have seen the balance between individual freedom and state power swing away from the individual and toward the state. As it swings toward the state, the individual is deprived both of freedom and the responsibilities which are intrinsic to the exercise of freedom. Modern psychiatry has contributed to the momentum of this swing by promoting an ideology which is biologically reductionistic and explains human thoughts, feelings, and behavior on the basis of brain physiology.

After completing his presidency, Dwight Eisenhower warned the American people that the military-industrial complex, which was largely responsible for victory in World War II, was the greatest danger to peace. As we approach the millennium, we must be aware of a new danger. The State-Science Alliance, upon which our forefathers relied instead of religion for human progress, is now the greatest threat to that progress.

The psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz is a symptom of the rise of the State-Science Alliance—the ascendance of the ethics and technology for managing and controlling people and the simultaneous decline of the ethics of individual freedom, dignity, and responsibility. In the context of history, the conflict is between a narrowly scientific, biological-reductionistic view of human beings, which interprets behavior as the product of brain chemistry and justifies depriving certain individuals of their freedom against their will, and a humanistic view which integrates biological science into a multidimensional perspective on the individual as moral agent. To humanists all over the world, Szasz is a hero who has fought long and hard and with great personal sacrifice for the values of individual rights, freedom, and dignity, and against the paternalistic state and psychiatrists who function as agents of the state to manage, control, and repress the individual.

The issue came to a focus recently when Darryl Strawberry, star outfielder of the Los Angeles Dodgers, quit playing baseball, reportedly because he had a problem with drugs and had to enter a treatment program for addiction. Tommy Lasorda, manager of the Dodgers, criticized Strawberry for his lack of moral character because he yielded to the temptation of drugs. Tipper Gore, wife of the U.S. Vice-President and champion of medical-model coercive psychiatry, chastened Lasorda for his ignorance. Every educated person today knows, Tipper Gore said, that addiction is a disease and that Strawberry, therefore, is the victim of mental illness. Perhaps only old Szasz fans and old Dodger fans like me believe Tommy Lasorda.

Notes

  1. Rael J. Isaac, and Virginia C. Armat, Madness in the Streets: How Psychiatry and the Law Abandoned the Mentally Ill. (New York: The Free Press. 1990).
  2. Karl Mannheim, Ideology and Utopia (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1929).
  3. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  4. Ronald Leifer, In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry (New York: Science House, 1969); Ronald Leifer, "The Medical Model as the Ideology of the Therapeutic State," Journal of Mind and Behavior, 11, nos. 3 and 4 (Summer and Autumn 1990), pp. 247-258; Thomas Szasz, Law, Liberty and Psychiatry (New York: Macmillan, 1963).
  5. Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Matter (New York: Dover Publications, 1954), and Logic and Knowledge, Charles Marsh, Ed. (London: Allen and Unwin, 1956); Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1949).
  6. Szasz is uncomfortable with the term "medical model" because, he says, "medical doctors don't deprive people of their freedom" (personal communication). Psychiatrists use only those aspects of the medical model that are useful to their interests. By this definition, the medical model refers to a view of the mind on the template of the body and the brain. This results in a biological or neurophysiological reductionism for explaining thoughts, feelings, and behavior.
  7. Personal communication from Tom Szasz.
  8. Ronald Leifer,"The Competence of the Psychiatrist to Assist in the Determination of Incompetency: A Skeptical Inquiry into the Courtroom Functions of Psychiatrists," Syracuse Law Review, 14, no. 4 (Summer 1963), pp. 564- 575. See also Leifer, "Psychiatric Expert Testimony and Criminal Responsibility," American Psychologist, 19, no. 11 (November 1964), pp. 825-830.
  9. Ronald Leifer, "Avoidance and Mastery: An Interactional View of Phobias," Journal of Individual Psychology, 22, no. 1 (May 1966), pp. 80-93.
  10. Newton Bigelow, "Szasz for the Gander," Psychiatric Quarterly 36, no. 4 (1962) pp. 754- 767.
  11. Ronald Leifer, "Ernest Becker: A Biography." In International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Volume II (New York: Harper and Row, 1978). See also Leifer, "The Legacy of Ernest Becker." Kairos,2, (1986), pp. 8-21.
  12. Ernest Becker, The Structure of Evil: An Essay on the Unification of the Science of Man (New York: Braziller, 1968).
  13. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project: Transforming the Three Poisons Which Are the Causes of the Suffering We Inflict on Ourselves and Others (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  14. Ernest Becker, Revolution in Psychiatry (New York: The Free Press, 1969); Ernest Becker, Angel in Armor: A Post-Freudian perspective on the Nature of man (New York: George Braziller, 1969); Leifer, Avoidance and mastery.
  15. Kate Millet, The Loony Bin Trip (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990).
  16. Peter Breggin, Toxic psychiatry (New York, St. Martin's Press, 1992).
  17. Natalie Angier, Review of Torrey, E.F., et al., Schizophrenia and Manic Depressive Disorder, in New York Times Book Review, April 17, 1994.
  18. Sophocles, Oedipus Rex. In The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles, Paul Roche, trans. (New York: Mentor Books, 1991).

What Do We Believe and Whom Do We Trust?

Caitlin had been referred by her physician because he could find no organic cause for her symptoms. She had complained of a variety of medical problems that led to being run through a gauntlet of tests, scans, and diagnostic procedures, all negative. Yet her problems, regardless of their origin, seemed to worsen over time. Caitlin was hardly the most expressive or verbal client I'd seen.

Although in her mid-twenties, she reminded me of some adolescents who would rarely speak; in her case she was virtually mute.

"What can I help you with?" I asked to begin our first session. Shrug.

"You're not sure?" Another shrug.

Was she playing a game with me? Was I being tested? Did she have laryngitis or a mental handicap? I could not be sure.

After five long minutes of silence in which she stared at the floor, seemingly fascinated by the weave of the carpet, I had finally had enough. "Look Caitlin, I'm not sure what you expect of me or why you're here. The only thing that I know is that your doctor sent you to me because he couldn't help you. I understand you are having a lot of problems, and, apparently, he thinks it might be helpful for you to talk about them. But I can't help you unless you tell me what's going on."

Incredibly, Caitlin shrugged again but this time offered a wry smile.

Now I was determined to wait her out. There was something going on here that I did not understand, but I sensed that pushing her further was not going to work. I just wanted to get through the hour and send her on her way. Obviously, she was not ready for therapy.

We sat silently for the rest of the session, Caitlin alternately staring at the floor and some undetermined spot over my left shoulder. I checked a few times, just to see what was so interesting, but it was one of the few blank spots on the wall. Maybe she was projecting her own images. At this point I did not know or care; I was already thinking about my next client and what I could do to make up for this disaster.

Imagine my surprise when the session finally ended and Caitlin said to me, "Same time next week?"

I was taken by such surprise that all I could do was nod my head. Now I was the one who was rendered mute.

The second session repeated the pattern of the first: Caitlin took her seat but would not speak. She just sat there, apparently comfortable and unconcerned with the silence. Even though I was prepared for this eventuality, and had rehearsed several things I might do to draw her out, each overture was met with a shrug or ignored altogether. By the time the second session ended, I was resolved that I'd had enough: no more "same time next week."

I was just about to call for an end to this charade, pretending to be therapy, when Caitlin abruptly stood up, handed me an envelope, and exited, stage left. I was dumbfounded, frozen in place, holding this offering in my hand, unsure what to do next. I told myself that I should just put it aside for now—it could not be good news—but my curiosity got the better of me. I ripped open the envelope to find a five-page single-spaced letter in which Caitlin had outlined the sorry state of her life. It included all the things that a client would normally reveal in the first few sessions, talking about her early history, her family situation, her living arrangements, employment, and cogently reviewing all her various physical symptoms. She ended the self-report by stating that she hoped I understood how difficult it was for her to talk about these things and asked if I could be patient with her. She said she would return the following week if I'd still be willing to see her.

What could I say to that? I just shook my head, eager to resume this "conversation" during our next meeting. Oh, did I mention that I assumed that the structure of our communication might change? No such luck. It was more of the same: continual and unremitting silence. In response to everything I brought up from her letter, Caitlin would smile or shrug or sometimes frown and shake her head. I was so desperate, that seemed like progress: at least now I could get a tentative yes or no in response to a question.

"Caitlin," I tried again, "you wrote in your letter that you live with your brother. How's that working out?" Shrug.

"Just okay? You mentioned in your letter that you were close." She nodded her head.

And so it went, another frustrating, laborious, tedious (did I mention frustrating?) hour.

Fast forward five months. I have now seen Caitlin every week at our appointed weekly time. We are talking now. Or at least I am mostly talking and she occasionally rewards me with an actual verbal yes or no response, and sometimes she even utters a whole sentence. But basically she does not say much—until she hands me a letter at the end of the session that basically answers every question I asked the previous session and even a few things I wondered about but had not yet broached. I have certainly never done therapy quite like this, and it sure is hard work, but I tell myself that she is coming back, so she must be getting something out of the experience.

Another few months go by and I eventually learn a lot about Caitlin's life and her predicament. Her physician has been increasingly concerned because of abrasions in her vagina and burns on her breasts, wounds that appeared to be self-inflicted. When I asked her about this, Caitlin immediately clammed up and would not talk about them at all, even in a follow-up letter. The doctor called a week later to tell me that he "fired" Caitlin as a patient, refusing to see her any longer. I assumed this was because she was playing the same kind of silent treatment games with him that she was acting out with me, but I was wrong. Apparently, Caitlin had been left alone in an examining room when a nurse unexpectedly entered and found her holding the thermometer that had been placed in her mouth underneath the flame of a lighter to artificially raise the temperature and fake a fever. All of a sudden things started to fall in place, and the doctor realized that he was dealing with a case of Munchausen syndrome in which Caitlin had been manufacturing various disorders and diseases all along as an excuse for attention. This was clearly a case for psychological treatment, way out of his domain—and firmly back into mine.

But this called into question everything that she had thus far told me in her letters. How much of this was really true? How much could I trust anything that she had related to me? If she had been willing to fake her various ailments, and lie about her symptoms, what was to say that anything about her history was true? How could I work with a client who was now identified as a chronic liar?

I'm hardly the first therapist to work with someone with Munchausen syndrome, or a factitious disorder, or a sociopath, or any other client who knowingly lies, but once these fabrications and deceit are uncovered, what are we to do with them?

After so many months invested in our relationship, I initially felt betrayed, just as I had with Jacob. But in Caitlin's case, I quickly realized this was one very vulnerable, terrified, disturbed young woman who was doing the best she could to hold things together. If she was willing to go to such extremes for attention and self-protection, what did that say about anything she would tell me in therapy? And how and when is it appropriate and safe enough to confront this issue directly?

I decided that I really did need to confront the issue of truth with Caitlin, not for my own satisfaction, but to make it possible for us to have a truly trusting relationship, maybe the first one in her life. I had by this point learned that there were all sorts of weird things going on in her family, lots of secrets and lies that had been kept hidden.

It was during the middle of one of our silent conversations that I took a deep breath and told Caitlin that I had a few things that I wanted to bring to her attention. One of the advantages of having a client who does not talk is that it is very easy to carve out time to say whatever I want and expect a fairly compliant audience. She cocked her head and actually made eye contact, signaling that she realized that something important was coming.

I told her everything that I had recently learned, that she had been making up her various ailments and faking the symptoms in order to visit the doctor, perhaps for attention and sympathy, or perhaps for other reasons that she might reveal. I presented specific, irrefutable behavioral evidence, complete with witnesses, so there would be no sense denying the "charges." Furthermore, I shared with her my concerns that all along she had been playing games with me, just as she had with the doctors giving me the silent treatment and refusing to talk (except in carefully constructed letters). She seemed to be taking this with relative calmness, so I went further and talked about how this made it difficult for me to trust her. I told her how much I cared about her, how much I wanted to know her better, how important it was for me to help her if she would let me, and how I was bringing all this up because it felt like we could never go much further unless we were more honest with one another. Maybe this is coming across as harsh, but I tried to be as gentle and loving as I could while bringing the deceit into the open. And I insisted on thinking about this as an issue of honesty in our relationship rather than as a pathological condition named after an obscure German baron.

Caitlin looked at me thoughtfully after I finished what I had to say. I fully expected complete silence and so was surprised—and delighted—that after close to nine months we had our first real face-to-face conversation. It was as if a door had been opened and she had decided to walk through and meet me, if not halfway, then a few tentative footsteps in my vicinity. For the rest of that session, and the few that followed, she told me about the sexual abuse she had experienced since she had been a child by her brother, the same brother who was still living with her, and still sneaking into her room at night. She admitted that she had been hurting herself, sticking objects in her vagina and burning her breasts with lit cigarettes, in order to discourage her brother from continuing to have sex with her. She talked about all the guilt she had been feeling and how she understood the meaning of the self-punishment. She even understood that her silence in her relationship with me was a way for her to maintain control, to take care of herself while in the room with a strange man who might hurt her the way she had been betrayed before.

Yes, I know what you are thinking: Was this true?

This time I can say, unequivocally and without reservation, yes, I am convinced that Caitlin did eventually trust me to risk revealing herself in a more honest and authentic way. How do I know that? Well, for one thing her symptoms disappeared. She moved out of the apartment where she had been living with her brother. She became functional in a whole host of other ways related to her work and other relationships. She confronted her brother, finally, and told him to never, ever come near her again or she would call the police. (I was able to get corroboration that this, in fact, did take place, and I was prepared to testify on her behalf.)

Yet would I be surprised if I ever learned that I had been scammed, that she made the whole story up, that she was still playing me—but simply changed tactics once I caught on to the previous game? Yes I would. I will never know of course. Most of the time we can never really know what is true and what is not. We have to live with this uncertainty and give people the benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise, we could never do this work or function at all.

Maybe you are not very surprised that there would not be much neat closure to our topic. You already knew there is no certainty in what we do, given the complexities and ambiguities or the territory in which we operate.

Clients Who Lie and Deceive

It is the client's job description in therapy to tell us what is going on as fully, completely, and honestly as possible, providing the most detailed and robust descriptions of complaints, life history, contextual features, and innermost thoughts and feelings. The reality of what we actually get from clients is less than ideal for a number of reasons. There are unconscious distortions and imperfect memories. Defense mechanisms operate to protect the client against pain, discomfort, and perceived attacks. Character traits may compromise trust and intimacy.

In a blog (psychcentral.com), psychologist John Grohol (2008a) asked people why they would ever lie to therapists. This was a question that he could never really understand. "If you lie to your therapist," he pointed out, "especially about something important in your life or directly related to your problems, then you're wasting your time and your therapist's time." He cites lies of omission as an example, such as a client saying he is depressed and uncertain why, yet failing to mention that his mother recently died. Or another example in which someone complains about low self-esteem but neglects to say that she binges and purges after every meal.

When Grohol first wrote his essay, musing about the ridiculousness of lying to the person who is paid to help you, he was completely unprepared for the barrage of clients who would respond on his blog. Here are a few representative reasons posted why people lie to their therapists:

I don't yet trust my therapist, partly because I'm not confident that this therapist has the skills or experience to handle my problems in the first place. (Adrivahni, January 9, 2008)

i lie to my therapist about what i'm feeling towards her. i'm embarrassed about these feelings, and when i do try to share them, they come out wrong. those are that i feel too dependent, that I want more than what she can give me, and that i find these feelings to be a sort of weakness in me. (Cameron, January 9, 2008)

We all lie to our shrinks, just like we lie to our dentists (Sure, I'll floss twice a day) and our mechanics (It's not so much a click as a drum roll). But the point of repeat visits to our shrinks is to allow for the time necessary to figure out what's a lie, what's a misconception, and what the truth (for that day) is. (Gabriel, January 10, 2008)

Dozens of other confessions led Grohol (2008b) to write a follow-up essay about common reasons to lie to your therapist. Contributions from him and from other sources (DeAngeles, 2008; Gediman & Leiberman, 1996; Kelly, 1998) identified several of the most common reasons for deception in therapy sessions.

Some Reasons Why Clients Lie

We have seen how lying is a natural and normal part of daily life, a practice that first begins about age 3 or 4 when we first learn we have choices about what we tell others, each presenting different consequences. Biologist Lewis Thomas once observed that if people stopped lying, the world would end, politicians would be arrested, media would be cancelled, and people would stop talking to one another. Lies, or at least half-truths and other fractions of complete honesty, allow trust to build. In therapy, deception is just another in a series of defenses that clients use to remain in control and to protect themselves.

Many, if not most, clients keep certain things from their therapists in order to present themselves in the best possible light. Whereas previously it was believed that lying or deceiving a therapist would only sabotage the treatment, it would appear as if clients may actually benefit by keeping some things private (Kelly, 1998). People lie to their spouses and partners, their family and friends, especially to coworkers and others in which favorable impressions are critical to continued success. It should come as no surprise that clients also lie to their therapists, a lot.

Fear of Shame and Humiliation

Let's face it: it is hard to talk about secrets, about sex, about mistakes and failures, about shortcomings, about feeling helpless to take care of one's own problems, about almost anything that people bring to sessions. It hurts.

Many clients lie to their therapists to avoid feelings of shame, embarrassment, and what they believe will be critical judgment by their therapists (DeAngelis, 2008). We may think of ourselves as neutral, accepting, and nonjudgmental, and advertise ourselves as such, but that does not mean that people actually believe us. And they aren't far wrong. The reality is that we are sometimes critical and judgmental (at least inside our heads) when clients do or say things that seem stupid, even as we keep the poker face in place, nod our heads, and pretend we do not care one way or the other.

Much of the content of therapy involves talking about things about which people feel most ashamed and embarrassed, and most reluctant to admit. It takes awhile for clients to warm up, to feel safe enough, in order to broach the subjects that are most sensitive. It is during this period in which the therapist is on probation that clients will take any steps necessary to risk greater vulnerability. When we think about it, it is absolutely ridiculous for us to anticipate anything different—that is, to actually expect a new client during the first few weeks to spill his or her guts and come clean with anything and everything that has been previously disguised or hidden. Lying during the initial (and subsequent) stages of therapy is not only normal but highly adaptive and healthy.

Disappointing the Therapist

Whether clients are afraid of disappointing their therapists, or whomever he or she represents as an authority or parental figure, there is often concern (or perception) that the naked truth will result in a loss of respect. One client explains why she lied: "For myself, one of my biggest problems has been worrying that I was letting my therapist or psychiatrist down in some way. I try to hide when I feel depressed, fearing that my mood is somehow going to wreak havoc on others. My therapist is a cognitive behaviorist and I used to fret that she'd think I hadn't been doing my homework. Also, she was so clearly concerned for my well-being that it upset me to come in when I was feeling lousy!" (MacNamarrah, 2008).

It is ironic, but all too often the case, that clients do not talk about what is really bothering them, or even cancel sessions when they need help the most. They believe that others—even someone who is paid to be helpful—cannot really handle their deepest secrets and innermost selves. In addition, therapists are required by law to report suspected (or confessed) cases of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. We are also forced to act when there is a risk of harm to self or others. Then there are other illegal or moral transgressions that may have been committed in the past, or are still currently going on. It behooves such an individual to be less than completely forthcoming with anyone, much less a professional who is mandated to contact authorities.

Ignorance

Some clients, who are relatively unsophisticated about therapy, or about how change takes place, leave out all kinds of important stuff because they did not know it was particularly important. It wasn't exactly that they were lying as much as choosing to ignore, deny, or otherwise gloss over things that did not seem all that important—and besides, they are uncomfortable to mention.

Physicians are able to run all kinds of diagnostic tests—blood work, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), electrocardiograms (EKGs), ultrasound, urine analysis, biopsies, X-rays—because they do not fully trust self-reports as accurate data. We are left with what clients choose to tell us based on their beliefs about what is relevant, awareness of what they know and understand, and willingness to share information selectively. It is no wonder that we are operating with imperfect, flawed, and incomplete data. Even in cases of clear success, how confident do you feel that you really understood what was going on? How certain are you that the results reported were truly accurate? If you answer, unequivocally, that you are very confident, perhaps you should consider your own degree of honesty.

Living Alternative Realities

For those with personality or factitious disorders, lying is a way of life. It has become so habituated that the person actually comes to believe the fantasies that are spun; they become an alternate reality.

When Meghan first contacted me, it was in a letter she had written after discovering one of my books at a garage sale (the first book I ever wrote that she purchased for a dollar). At the time she was a teenager and we struck up a correspondence that lasted for 20 years. Meghan struggled with depression throughout most of her life, had contemplated and attempted suicide many times, never deciding on the best method to end her life.

I'm still not sure what role I played in her life, but I always responded to her letters with support and caring, encouraging her to stay in therapy and continue to work on herself. She ended up reading many of my books over the years and, each time, would send her comments and reactions. Over the years she also told me a lot of things about herself, sent photos, brought me up to date on her family and relationships, and occasionally asked for advice. Even though she was not a client, and I never actually met her, I felt a certain responsibility to be as kind as I could; there was obviously some kind of transference going on and I wanted to be careful.

Eventually I learned that much of what Meghan had told me over the years were lies. I believe the part about her depression and suicidal thoughts, but I discovered that the photos she sent me were of someone else, the stories she told me were fictions, and that she had even sent me e-mails masquerading as other people. It was a bizarre case that I did my best to extricate myself from, although every few years Meghan will contact me again in some other disguised form.

There are other people like Meghan in the world and you have met them, perhaps worked with them. Sometimes you recognize them before you are sucked into their fantasy worlds; other times (most of the time in my experience) you do not realize the level of deception until it is far too late. One of the reasons it is so difficult to detect such mendacity is because the individuals have managed to confuse lies from truth; they cannot seem to tell the difference.

Unlike Jacob, I did have the chance to confront Meghan directly (and repeatedly) about the games she had played over the years. After each instance of discovering a lie, she would first deny it, then apologize profusely and beg for another chance. I gave up trying to negotiate a more honest form of communication with her soon after she sent me a draft of her autobiography, which she claimed would soon be released by a major New York publisher (another lie). It was titled: "I Will Tell You No Secrets and Tell You All Lies."

As with Meghan, some clients are not really lying to "us" but to individuals we represent, whether transference objects or surrogate authority figures. When all is said and done, therapists are never going to be very good at detecting client lies. It is just not part of our constitution, or our training, in which so much of what we learn to do is build trust.

Given the uncertainty and doubt we must accept and live with related to our work, the question remains: How do we work with issues of deception and lies in therapy?

This excerpt from The Assassin and the Therapist: An Exploration of Truth in Psychotherapy and in Life was reprinted with permission from the publisher. For more information and to purchase the book, visit Amazon.com.