Is it Ethical to Use ChatGPT for Diagnosis and Treatment Planning?

When questioning your work with a client, ever consider consulting Artificial Intelligence (AI)? Have you considered the ethical and legal implications?

A supervisee of mine recently introduced AI into our supervision sessions. My supervisee explained how they came to see the treatment plan development in relation to the feedback received through consultation with AI. In examining a specific client case my supervisee felt they were stuck with, we delved into exploration of AI professional relevance. Below is an excerpt reflective of one of our sessions:

Bringing AI into the Supervisory Conversation

Supervisee (SE): I am really struggling to understand why my approaches with the client do not seem to be resulting in the client’s therapeutic progression. Supervisor (SP): Tell me about some of the interventions you have used and how you came to establish their appropriateness for this client.

SE: I have tried cognitive restructuring first. AI suggested the intervention.

SP: Let’s start here. Help me understand how AI prompted the recommendation for cognitive restructuring.

SE: I asked AI, “what counseling interventions would help an adolescent female overcome social anxiety?” AI stated cognitive restructuring has been found to be helpful.

SP: What evidence did AI offer concerning the interventions’ effectiveness?

SE: No specific study was shared, just general feedback.

SP: When you say general feedback, do you mean reports from clinicians or clients?

SE: I don’t know.

SP: Did AI offer any scholarly sources?

SE: I did ask for resources to help me implement the intervention and some websites were shared. I read a few of them to see how cognitive restructuring has been used in sessions. Some of them had scholarly sources. I feel some of the resources were helpful for this client.

SP: I see that in your last session’s progress note for this client, you mentioned in the assessment that your client meets criteria for the diagnosis of social anxiety disorder and cited AI.

SE: Yeah, according to AI, my client meets the criteria.

SP: Are the criteria reflective of the DSM-5-TR?

SE: They should be.

SP: For billing purposes, you will be required to provide the appropriate DSM diagnosis. You will need to ensure the client’s symptoms meet the DSM criteria. Share with me how you found AI to account for your whole client. For instance, some of the information you gathered from the intake, and you learned through your sessions thus far.

SE: Well, I couldn’t share some of that information due to the client’s right for privacy and confidentiality, so I had to just generalize to populations like her being an adolescent female.

SP: Knowing these limitations, the need to research AI for sources and then research the sources’ relevance, why not just search for scholarly sources first?

SE: Open AI is easy and accessible with my phone so I can complete my notes on site between clients.

SP: Do you have your phone with you now?

SE: Yes, why?

SP: Would you be open to trying something using your phone?

SE: Yeah

SP: Please type in Google scholar in your browser and click on the link to open it.

SE: Okay, got it.

SP: Complete the same search here in Google scholar that you did previously with AI.

SE: Got it.

SP: How are these results compared to what you received in AI?

SE: Some of the relevant sources shared by Open AI came up. A lot of research-based articles came up in Google scholar.

SP: I want to take a moment to pause and offer some reflection on your experiences thus far with AI, progress notes, diagnosis, scholarly sources, and search for appropriate client interventions in general. Imagine going to court based on your work with a client and they claim you engaged in malpractice and unethical business practices based on your diagnosis, would you feel confident in sharing with the judge your current process in working with your clients?

SE: Not really to be honest. I feel like I am a bit overwhelmed, and AI has been a great tool to help me not stay at the office for hours after working with clients to complete documentation, but I am not always confident in what I am doing.

SP: Remember that confidence comes with time and this is why you have built in parameters right now to support… required supervision, open consultation hours with numerous senior clinicians, required team meetings for case conceptualization.

SE: I am a bit fearful people will not think I am good at my job and will no longer send me clients.

SP: What are your thoughts about a few clients that you feel confident in working with versus many you are unsure how to effectively support?

SE: I would rather feel confident, but I do not want to loose my job.

SP: First and foremost, thank you for your honesty. My role is to also support you to grow as a clinician and aid you with your development. Let’s agree for the next month, we will keep your caseload where it is at and revisit later to grow again.

SE: Thank you; I just don’t want my colleagues to think I can’t do my share.

SP: We all have seasons of life where we may need to provide best practices with our clients.

SE: I know.

SP: Remember, your ethical obligation, as well as mine, is to the welfare of theclients first and foremost. What would you rather tell the judge you used to guide your work and decisions with the client, AI or Scholarly resources?

SE: Scholarly resources.

SP: So why use AI? You shared the ease of access. Something to consider is also how you use it. I am not going to say all AI is bad, because there is also a great deal of research highlighting the benefits of AI. However, engaging with AI considering your compliance with HIPAA as well as your professional standards of practice is essential.

I proposed to you earlier about the client consideration and the credibility of the responses. There is a free training course I would suggest you complete that examines AI implementation for mental health providers. Here are the objectives for the course [shares screen]… how do you feel about this course being able to support your confidence with client work with use of AI?

SE: The course seems to cover many areas I am struggling with and supports the use of AI, which I like, so it may be a good fit for me.

SP: Instead of completing the three additional intakes assigned for you this week, would you be open to completing the three-hour training by our next supervision session next week?

SE: I think that is doable.

Final, but not Last Considerations

Lesson here, as a professional counselor navigating ethical best practices, you are encouraged to seek guidance from scholarly sources. If you don’t feel comfortable bringing your documentation in front of a judge, it is probably not the most ethical decision you can make. Applying ACA’s step 6 of the Practitioner’s Guide to Ethical Decision-Making model, application of the test of publicity, can further highlight if the choices you are making in the work with your client are choices you would be proud to stand by.

With AI specifically, we understand our world is consistently increasing its embrace. In healthcare alone, numerous AI platforms have been developed with the intention of supporting clinicians with their work with clients from advertising, intakes, platform capabilities, and even documentation. However, understanding how to distinguish between tools that align with your professional standards of practice is essential to not only protect the clinicians but also the clients. Furthermore, understanding how to implement the tools appropriately for your role with compliance to your profession’s ethical and legal parameters is critical.

Gift Giver: The Impact of Giving Clients Gifts

I don’t remember the first time I gave a client a gift. I don’t remember who it was or what I chose, but years ago, I established a tradition of giving gifts at particular milestones. If gift-giving was mentioned at all during my training as a psychologist, it was solely in the context of how to manage receiving gifts from clients. Therapists might lend something from their office as a transitional object during a long separation or a particularly difficult time, but to give a gift was viewed as a breach of boundaries. Forty years later, I take a different perspective.

The Value and Challenges of Therapist Gift Giving

Giving a gift is an opportunity to acknowledge the special relationship between therapist and client. It has the power to reinforce the depth of closeness, of being known, that often only happens in the setting of a therapeutic alliance. Transference and countertransference are part of the connection between therapist and client, but not the sum total of the relationship. Showing our humanity can be a true gift to a client.

Over the years, I have settled on a few select items to give at times of major transition. I give a copy of Gift from the Sea, by Anne Morrow Lindbergh, to clients getting married; Make Way for Ducklings when a baby is born; and a stone coffee coaster with the town seal of Brookline, where my office was located, when clients move or end therapy.

Additionally, I mail condolence cards when someone experiences a significant loss. Recently, one client who received a card from me on the occasion of his father’s death remarked that it felt so formal to get a card in the mail. In a sense, it seemed out of character to him for me to be that traditional. As generational and cultural norms shift, I may need to rethink my choices.

I don’t have a rule about who gets a gift or a card, and I don’t give them to everyone. I decide based on a gut feeling that this act will be well received, and that acknowledging our relationship as something that exists beyond the allotted sessions will be beneficial. There is a basic humanness that exists inside the professional alliance that I value expressing. It touches my sense of gratitude for the trust the client has placed in me. For certain clients, there also can be worth in modeling an act of kindness for them.

In preparing to write about this topic, I reached out to a dozen colleagues to inquire about their philosophy regarding gift-giving. I realized I had never talked with another clinician about my tradition, nor had I heard anyone else mention this subject. Although I was a bit nervous that I might be judged negatively for my behavior, I approached the conversations without bias about other clinicians’ practices. I am more curious about their thinking than the position they take.

I learned from these exploratory conversations that only one other colleague gives gifts regularly. She reported that the more trauma the client suffered, the greater the chance she would give them a gift to help with the healing. Others talked about calling clients or sending texts to acknowledge life events, which mirrors their behavior in their personal lives. Interestingly, one therapist talked about the significance of the gifts she had received from her therapist many years ago, mementos she still treasures, but she herself never adopted this practice because she struggled to find gifts that she deemed suitably meaningful.

Unanswered questions for me include whether the age of the patient population might impact giving gifts, whether the gender of the therapist and/or client influences the choice, and whether the type of training and years of experience are reflected in how one thinks about gift giving in therapy.

And finally, I am curious if doing remote versus in-person sessions will have any impact on this practice. With more therapists only doing remote therapy, I wonder if gift giving on either side of the equation might diminish. I know for myself that now having a fully remote practice, I receive fewer holiday gifts than when I was seeing clients in person. But, to date I have maintained my gift-giving practice even though it now requires more trips to the post office, and I miss the connection from handing the gift personally to a client.

Giving gifts has enriched my practice. Although I largely rely on my words to communicate in therapy, gift-giving is a tangible way to communicate that I value clients and care about them. It is a concrete representation of the very real relationship that is carved out of years of hard work together.

Questions for Thought and Discussion

  • What is your position on this practice of giving gifts to clients?
  • To what kinds of clients have you given gifts?
  • If you do give gifts, how do you choose them for specific clients?

Ethics or Protocol: Children Must Take Priority

A friend offered me the opportunity to join her in her practice, which I gladly did based on my knowledge of her values, beliefs, my love of what I do, and awareness of my weaknesses in marketing and billing. I brought my 20-plus years of clinical experience across inpatient, outpatient, and community mental health settings, which included my skills in assessment, documentation and play therapy into practice.

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I was happy as a clam doing the clinical work, receiving a regular paycheck, and leaving behind the hassle of finding clients for myself. In terms of emotional demands on my employer, I was a non-complainer, and my needs were few. I asked for little and consulted enough to keep her informed of significant treatment issues.

An Ethical Dilemma Arises

As the practice grew, so did my employer’s need to be outside the office, and in her place, there were protocols. One of them was that no written document was to leave the office without her review, which included all letters, reports, and clinical summaries. Clinicians had deadlines and due dates on the documents which left the office, which did not always coincide with her ability to review and approve them. I understood the need for this system with new employees and interns, and that with multiple employees, that was a lot of reviewing. After all, that is what supervisors are for! But as a seasoned professional, I was not new to the field, and I knew my way around documentation and ethics.

I was treating a court-related, post-divorce father with three children, who traveled out of state for visitation with their mother. It was a 10-hour drive. A Guardian Ad Litem, who also happened to be an attorney, was assigned to the case.

The mother had been asked/ordered to participate in treatment and met once with me along with the children. In that meeting, she expressed her resentment and never returned. The father, nanny, and I were sure that the children were being abused and neglected. The children were telling the father, nanny, or myself stories of inconsistent care with meals, medications, sleeping arrangement, and transient care and supervision outside of their mother with other extended family members.

We were documenting the children’s emotional state and physical condition prior to, and after their visits with the mother. I was working with the children individually, as a group, with the father, and/or the nanny, after visitation with the mother to further support the need for intervention to stop the visitation. The judge continued to order the visits for lack of evidence and threatened the father with jail time if he didn’t comply.

We were documenting signs of abuse and neglect; refusal to give medication for a documented health condition, untreated medical illness, injuries, abnormal bruising, weight loss, sleep disturbance, and neglect. The children were scheduled to travel out of state for an extended three week stay. The father was under a court order to send them and severely stressed by the prospect.

In my clinical opinion the children were in danger if they were sent out of state for an extended visit like this. I felt the need to inform the Guardian Ad Litem. The deadline for the childrens’ next departure was rapidly approaching.

At that moment in time, my employer was consulting out of state and not due back until after the children’s impending departure. I fully understood the importance of protocol that the employer had set in place, but there was so much more at stake here than protocol. There was the children’s safety, health, and wellbeing, not to mention my legal liability, that of the agency, and my ethical reporting responsibility. While many reports had been filed in the past, there was not enough hard evidence to file a DCFS report or stop the visit.

I had prior authorization to communicate with the Guardian Ad Litem. I wrote the letter to the Guardian Ad Litem expressing my concerns, and the reasons. Based on experience, I knew my employer would not review the letter before the deadline for the visit, even if I sent it through email. The internal debate was emotional but brief. I sent the letter to the Guardian Ad Litem, and put a copy in the file, knowing it could cost me my job. The children needed to come first.

Because of the court order, the father sent the children to their mother. I did not hear from the Guardian Ad Litem, who did receive it via email, before the scheduled departure. The children survived the visit. Shortly after their return, one of the children disclosed sexual abuse, giving the court enough legal grounds to end visitation. The mother’s parental rights were terminated. The father re-married, and all three children have been formally adopted by his new wife. The children are thriving and progressing developmentally, despite their challenges.

As for my employer and I; we parted by mutual agreement.  

Ethical & Legal Considerations in Using ChatGPT as an Aid for Clinical Diagnosis

As psychologists, our mission often treads a tightrope of diagnostic precision and ethical consideration. The emergence of artificial intelligence (AI), particularly language models like ChatGPT, introduces an exciting yet complex layer to this balancing act. Such innovations have been lauded for their diagnostic acumen but also raise questions about legal implications and ethical stewardship. For this reason, I think it is important to explore the current state of AI applications in behavioral health, focusing on ChatGPT’s diagnostic capabilities as an aid to rendering a clinical diagnosis. In doing so, I hope to engage you in a thoughtful discourse about the ethical and legal dimensions of embracing AI in psychological practice.

Recent Literature on ChatGPT and Diagnostic Accuracy

A foundational study led by Mass General Brigham revealed that ChatGPT displayed a diagnostic accuracy of 72% across multiple medical specialties, even likening its performance to that of recent medical school graduates. Similarly, researchers at Queen Mary Hospital’s Division of Geriatrics investigated the efficacy of Generative Pre-trained Transformer 4 (GPT-4) in diagnosing older patients, citing an accuracy of 66.7% for primary diagnoses. These findings signify the AI’s prowess but also underscore the necessity for additional benchmarking and regulatory oversight.

In the context of behavioral health, Hilty and colleagues employed natural language processing to quantify linguistic features associated with mental and neurocognitive disorders. They advocated for using large datasets to enhance diagnostic objectivity, a mission that aligns well with the capabilities of ChatGPT. Salih Tutun and their colleagues discussed ethical frameworks that must be established to guide AI’s role in mental health, emphasizing the need for innovative yet ethically responsible diagnostic tools developed in line with guidelines for integrating ethical approaches to designing AI.

A Foray into ChatGPT’s Diagnostic Utility in Behavioral Health

To demonstrate AI’s capacity to enrich clinical thinking, I asked ChatGPT-4 to generate potential Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) diagnoses based on a specific behavior pattern. The result is offered below.

Prompt #1: What are possible DSM diagnoses for someone who is easily wounded, drinks alcohol to the point of being unable to show up for work, gets angry quickly, has poor boundaries, is marginally employed, is in debt, and is unsuccessful in romantic relationships?

The 1st ChatGPT Response

The following response (in italics) was obtained verbatim. As you read the response, consider whether it would be helpful, legal, and ethical for you to be able to enter a behavioral prompt (question posed to ChatGPT) to get this type of response:

It appears that the individual in question may be exhibiting several symptoms that could potentially align with various Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) diagnoses. It’s important to note that making an accurate diagnosis requires a comprehensive assessment by a qualified mental health professional. However, based on the information provided, several potential DSM diagnoses could be considered:

Intermittent Explosive Disorder (IED). Intermittent Explosive Disorder involves recurrent outbursts of anger that are disproportionate to the situation and often result in aggressive behavior or destruction of property. Individuals with IED struggle to control their anger impulses, and this may negatively impact their relationships and work life.

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). BPD is characterized by emotional dysregulation, unstable relationships, poor self-image, and impulsive behaviors. Individuals with BPD may experience intense anger and have difficulty managing their emotions. Poor boundaries and struggles in romantic relationships align with BPD features.

Alcohol Use Disorder (AUD). Excessive alcohol consumption, to the point of impairing daily functioning and causing absence from work, could indicate an Alcohol Use Disorder. This diagnosis would be based on criteria such as loss of control over drinking, unsuccessful attempts to cut down, and continued use despite negative consequences.

Depressive Disorder. The individual’s difficulty in managing anger, poor boundaries, and struggles in relationships could be associated with a Depressive Disorder. Depression can manifest as irritability and impaired social functioning, impacting both work and personal life.

Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD). Poor boundaries, being easily wounded, and difficulties in relationships might also be indicative of Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Chronic worry, heightened sensitivity to criticism, and interpersonal difficulties can be features of GAD.

Unspecified Personality Disorder. The individual’s challenges in maintaining boundaries, unstable relationships, and difficulties in employment could suggest the presence of a personality disorder that does not neatly fit within one specific category.

It’s crucial to emphasize that these are preliminary considerations and not a substitute for professional evaluation. A comprehensive assessment by a licensed mental health practitioner is essential for accurate diagnosis and appropriate treatment. The provided descriptions should not replace personalized clinical advice, and any diagnostic conclusions should be made by a qualified professional after a thorough evaluation.

Prompt #2: Which characteristics would need to be evaluated to make a differential diagnosis between the above possible diagnoses?

The 2nd ChatGPT Response
To differentiate between the potential diagnoses mentioned earlier (Intermittent Explosive Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Alcohol Use Disorder, Depressive Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and Unspecified Personality Disorder), a thorough assessment of various characteristics and factors is essential. It’s important to consider a combination of clinical interviews, self-report assessments, collateral information from family or close contacts, and possibly psychological testing. Here are some key characteristics that need to be evaluated to make a more accurate differential diagnosis:

Frequency and Intensity of Anger Episodes. For Intermittent Explosive Disorder, the frequency, intensity, and context of anger outbursts need to be evaluated. Determining whether the anger reactions are disproportionate and recurrent is crucial.

Emotional Instability and Impulsivity. Borderline Personality Disorder is characterized by emotional instability, impulsive behaviors, and unstable relationships. Assessing the pattern of emotional shifts, impulsive actions, and unstable sense of self is important. Alcohol Consumption Patterns. For Alcohol Use Disorder, an assessment of the individual’s alcohol consumption patterns, including frequency, quantity, and impact on functioning, is necessary. Evaluation of withdrawal symptoms, unsuccessful attempts to quit, and continued use despite negative consequences is important.

Presence of Depressive Symptoms. Depressive Disorder involves a range of symptoms beyond irritability, such as low mood, changes in appetite, sleep disturbances, and feelings of worthlessness. A thorough assessment of depressive symptoms is needed to consider this diagnosis.

Excessive Worry and Anxiety. In Generalized Anxiety Disorder, persistent and excessive worry about a variety of topics is a hallmark. Evaluating the extent of worry, physical symptoms of anxiety, and impact on daily life is crucial.

Impaired Interpersonal Functioning and Boundaries. Assessing the individual’s ability to establish and maintain healthy boundaries, as well as the quality of their relationships, can help differentiate between various disorders. An examination of interpersonal dynamics is particularly relevant for personality disorders.

Duration and Chronicity. Evaluating the duration and chronicity of symptoms is important. Some disorders, like personality disorders, involve longstanding patterns of behavior, while others might have more episodic presentations.

Family and Developmental History. Gathering information about the individual’s developmental history, family dynamics, early life experiences, and any history of trauma or adverse events can provide insights into potential underlying factors.

Response to Treatment. Observing how the individual responds to interventions, therapy, or medication can help in refining the diagnosis over time. Different disorders may respond differently to specific treatments.

Rule Out Medical and Substance-Related Factors. It’s important to acknowledge that medical and physical factors can indeed contribute to or mimic psychological symptoms. When evaluating an individual with behavioral and emotional concerns, considering potential medical conditions is a crucial aspect of a comprehensive assessment.

Need for Medical Evaluation. Given the individual’s symptoms, it’s advisable to conduct a thorough medical evaluation to rule out any underlying medical conditions that could be contributing to the symptoms. Medical conditions such as hormonal imbalances, thyroid issues, neurological disorders, or even medication side effects can impact mood and behavior.

In a comprehensive assessment, both psychological and medical factors should be taken into account. If an individual is experiencing significant psychological distress, it’s recommended to consult both a mental health professional and a medical doctor to ensure a comprehensive understanding of the situation and to consider all potential contributing factors. Remember that an accurate diagnosis often requires a multidimensional approach, and it’s not uncommon for individuals to have overlapping symptoms or co-occurring disorders. A licensed mental health professional with experience in assessment and diagnosis should guide the process, integrating various sources of information to arrive at the most appropriate diagnosis.

Ethical and Legal Caveats in Using ChatGPT

This demonstration is but one of many examples where ChatGPT can be used to broaden the clinician’s thinking about possible diagnoses to consider, as well as different avenues to explore to gather additional relevant information.

Despite its promise, ChatGPT is not without challenges. The AI model can inadvertently exhibit social prejudice and toxicity, thereby warranting rigorous oversight from clinicians. Furthermore, the legal ambiguities surrounding liability remain unresolved, especially when ChatGPT diagnoses are used as standalone evaluations. Multicultural and diversity issues, and protected health information were intentionally excluded from this demonstration.

ChatGPT and similar AI models serve best as adjuncts rather than replacements for human expertise. The current state of these tools does not support their verbatim use in clinical settings. If you’re contemplating the incorporation of ChatGPT into your practice, seek advice from your malpractice carrier’s attorney, your state or national psychological association’s legal office, or the APA Division 5, the Division of Psychometrics and Quantitative Psychology. If these groups don’t offer anything yet, get involved and start something as part of their group. Depending on your circumstance, independent legal counsel may also be advisable.

Telehealth.org also offers Continuing Medical Education (CME) and Continuing Education (CE) courses to guide you in this evolving terrain. Ensuring responsible utilization of ChatGPT in psychological diagnostics requires a confluence of caution, human judgment, and robust regulatory frameworks. As we step into the future of AI-augmented healthcare, let us tread with both anticipation and due diligence.

Disclaimer: This article is written for educational purposes only and should not be construed as legal or clinical advice. The information contained in this article was sourced from a telehealth.org blogpost titled, ChatGPT Diagnosis: Walking the Tightrope of Legality and Ethics found here and is re-printed with the author’s permission.

What I Know Now About the Clients Risks and Rewards of Reporting Sexual Assault

E. Jean Carroll stood on the courthouse steps to give her statement to the press following the jury's findings that former President Trump was liable for sexual abuse and defamation. She said, “This victory is not just for me, but for every woman who has suffered because she wasn't believed.”

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Within the hour, my phone buzzed notification after notification across my email and social platforms. People sent me screenshots of the headlines, celebratory emojis, and gifs. I've worked professionally in sexual assault victim advocacy in some capacity since 2010, first as an advocate and then as a psychotherapist.

Whenever a case like this happens, I become very popular for a few days. Being the go-to person for all things sexual assault in your social circles is, in a word, odd. It's amazing that anyone invites me to cocktail parties anymore. It's also amazing how many people will share their stories, bravely and candidly, when they have reason to think you'll believe them.

Why Sexual Assault Victims are Coming Forward Now

Amid the collection of celebratory emoticons, however, were a handful of skeptics using words like “convenient,” “opportunistic,” and “sketchy." They asked questions like, “Why now?”

In E. Jean Carroll's case, at least part of the answer to the question "Why now?" is that it was finally possible. In May 2022, the Governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, signed the Adult Survivors Act (S.66A/A.648A). The law went into effect in November of 2022, creating a one-year retrospective window for sexual assault survivors who were over the age of 18 at the time of their assaults the opportunity to come forward. A similar law for children was passed in 2019.

There are several ways to answer that question. Still, I am most struck by how surprised people are by the concept of delayed reporting — as if victims of sexual abuse should be clamoring to face the slut-shaming and character defamation.

That aside, why do people delay reporting?

In my clinical experience, I’ve learned that if they report at all, most of my clients delay doing so for some time, ranging from days to weeks to months, even years. Survivors offer several reasons for why they waited or simply refused to report their sexual assaults. The fear of not being believed is probably the most common. Victim blaming for the assault is a close second.

Another reason I've run into is that a victim may not understand that what they experienced was sexual assault. For years, we emphasized the trope of the male stranger in the alleyway, even though most assaults happen with a perpetrator who the victim knows. After all, it doesn't fit with the mythos they were taught. Even with DNA and forensic exams, consent remains essential to distinguishing rape and sexual assault from “just sex.” Personal accounts and statements are often key to a case — the infamous “he said/she said.”

The Impact of #MeToo

Although we've seen several high-profile people held accountable for sexual harassment, assault, and abuse more recently, the rate of successful prosecution (resulting in a felony conviction) remains abysmal at around 2.8%., according to RAINN, (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network)

That's part of what makes E. Jean Carroll's trial so remarkable. To many survivors, she did the impossible.

It's only been since 2017 when the #MeToo Movement — started By Tarana Burke in 2006 — gained national attention after Harvey Weinstein's sexual abuse allegations. Before then, men in positions of heavy influence and exceptional power seemed untouchable. But in 2017, suddenly, they were being held accountable for their actions. E. Jean Carroll's assault occurred in 1996. I'm sure that former President Trump seemed untouchable back then — and let's face it, he probably was. The inconvenient truth is, if you don't believe her now, you probably wouldn't have believed her then, either.

Victim Credibility: Who's On Trial?

Anyone who has sat in the courtroom for a sexual assault case will tell you that it is brutal. Court testimony is public record, so the most horrible and terrifying events of a victim's life are not only on display but are quite literally up for debate. I've watched defense attorneys smirk as they prepare to create a spectacle, attempting to dismantle a victim's credibility piece by piece. Even though rape shield laws are designed to protect victims' sexual histories from being used against them in court, the most effective attorneys know how to leverage society's purity culture beliefs and bias against a person's sexuality to undermine a victim's reputation and credibility.

As one salty detective commented, “Juries like virgin victims, Ms. Smith. And even then, it probably won't be enough.” I've learned over the years that, sadly, he was right. What a victim was wearing, drinking, saying, or doing during their assault was added to determine the degree to which a victim was “asking for it.” Of course, they never are. I've worked with hundreds of survivors, and not one person was asking for it.

Repeatedly Traumatized: The Second Worst Thing is Reporting

The few times I've had the opportunity to work with survivors whose cases were prosecuted, the damage caused by the experience of the trial, in many ways, was more challenging to address than the actual assault itself. A former client remarked, “I never thought anything could be more horrible than that night, but then came the trial. My assault is the second worst thing to ever happen to me.” Sexual assault is dehumanizing, and reporting is often described as being sexually assaulted repeatedly.

And those who chant that nothing will change unless victims come forward, I offer the following: if anyone has to do anything, I believe it is the rapists who need to stop raping, the perpetrators who need to stop perpetrating, and the rest of us who need to start believing. You can't tell people they have to report and not believe them when they do just because they've accused someone whom you esteem or can relate to.

It's easy to get caught up in the court system not working as it is supposed to and a culture that doesn't believe survivors. Even as a therapist and former victim advocate, short of it being a mandatory reporting case, I struggle with encouraging survivors to report their assaults.

I let them know that different reporting options exist and offer to assist in facilitating that process when they ask. However, I am careful not to frame reporting as the gateway to healing but as a potential component of their overall healing journey.

If a survivor wants to report because the action itself aids in restoring their sense of power, autonomy, or closure, it can be wildly helpful. It can also help support or corroborate testimony should other victims make reports about the person in the future. But fostering the hope of holding someone accountable legally feels risky. Healing from sexual assault cannot be contingent on a 2.8% chance. I try to remind them that they deserve to heal regardless of our system's ability to accomplish that task.

***

Sexual assault is a heavy topic to address in therapy. Early in my career, however, my mentor gave me a phrase that completely shifted my mindset around working with survivors. I believe it is the key to staying enthusiastic 11 years later about this work and avoiding burnout:

“Never desecrate someone's story by offering them pity. If you're feeling pity, you're not focusing on the absolute miracle that they survived to be sitting in front of you.”

Post-Script: As I am sitting here finishing my edits for this blog post, I received a message from a former client I worked with at the beginning of my career. She found me to let me know that she is reporting her assault after more than a decade.

Questions for Thought and Discussion

What was your personal and professional reaction to the verdict in the E. Jean Carroll case?

What have been your experiences working with sexual assault victims?

How have you addressed client resistance to reporting sexual assault in your practice?

Keeping or Ending Commitments, Excerpted from The Ethical Lives of Clients: Transcending Self-Interest in Psychotherapy

Keeping or Ending Commitments

A life without interpersonal commitments is a life untethered. Notice that I did not say a life without “relationships,” which can be fleeting. Commitment comes with obligations and an open timeline. It often involves sacrificing immediate needs. The person I am permanently committed to knows I’m invested in their well-being and makes life plans accordingly. However, if I’m in an intimate relationship that does not involve a permanent commitment, all I owe the other person is a respectful goodbye if I’m ready to move on. The same for most friendships: I don’t owe friends years of hard work (and maybe therapy) to maintain a relationship that has become hurtful for an extended time. In other words, committed relationships have an ethical dimension that simply being in a relationship does not. In the world of therapy, we have barely begun to take the ethics of commitment seriously as we work with our clients. To make this point more charitably: the therapy literature is rarely explicit about the moral dimension of commitment in how we work with clients in relationship difficulty. (There is scholarly work outside of therapy on interpersonal commitment—for example, Stanley, 2005, and Tran et al., 2019.). In this chapter, I focus on how therapists can support (and how they sometimes inadvertently undermine) commitment in two important relationships: marriage (by which I mean a lifelong, intimate relationship) and adult relationships with their parents (particularly as the parents become frail).

Therapy and Marital Commitment

Shortly after I finished writing Soul Searching in 1995, the therapy blind spot with the ethics of commitment came home to me in the form of stories I received from married people who were close to me. In telling their stories, which they gave me permission to do, I am aware that it’s possible that they misunderstood their therapists or did not recall the details correctly. However, they are all credible people to me, and their stories fit a pattern I have heard from many clients over the years about their experiences in therapy. This pattern includes stories from fellow therapists about their experience as clients. In other words, although I can’t vouch for the accuracy of any particular story, I can be confident in the overall trend.

Monica, a relative of mine, called from another city to say that she was stunned when Rob, her husband of 18 years, announced that he was having an affair with her best friend and wanted an “open marriage.”(1) When a shocked Monica refused to consider this alteration in their marriage, Rob bolted from the house and was found the next day wandering in a nearby wood. After 2 weeks in a psychiatric hospital for acute psychotic depression, he was released to outpatient treatment. Although during his hospitalization, he claimed that he wanted a divorce, his therapist urged him not to make any major decisions until he was feeling better. Meanwhile, Monica was beside herself with grief, fear, and anger. She had two young children to care for, a demanding job, and a chronic illness diagnosed 12 months before this crisis. Indeed, Rob had never been able to cope with her diagnosis or with his job loss 6 months after that.

Clearly, this couple had been through huge stresses in the past year, including a relocation to a different city where they had no support systems in place. Rob was acting in a completely uncharacteristic way for a former straight-arrow man with strong religious and moral values. Monica was now depressed, agitated, and confused. She sought out recommendations to find the best psychotherapist available in her city. He turned out to be a highly regarded clinical psychologist. Rob was continuing in individual outpatient psychotherapy while living alone in an apartment. He still wanted a divorce.

As Monica recounted the story, her therapist, after two sessions of assessment and crisis intervention, suggested that she pursue the divorce that Rob said he wanted. She resisted, pointing out that this was a long-term marriage with young children and that she was hoping that the real Rob would reemerge from his midlife crisis. She suspected that the affair with her friend would be short-lived (which it was). She was angry and terribly hurt, she said, but determined not to give up on an 18-year marriage after one month of hell. The therapist, according to Monica, interpreted her resistance to “moving on with her life” as stemming from her inability to “grieve” the end of her marriage. He then connected this inability to grieve to the loss of her father when Monica was a small child; Monica’s difficulty in letting go of a failed marriage stemmed from unfinished mourning from the death of a parent.

Fortunately, Monica had the strength to fire the therapist. Not many clients would be able to do that, especially in the face of such expert pathologizing of their moral commitment. I was able to get her and Rob to a good marital therapist who saw them through their crisis and onward to a recovered and ultimately healthier marriage.

In another case close to home for me, Jessie, a friend of my family, emailed me upset when her new counselor, whom she was seeing for depression and complaints about her marriage of less than a year, suggested that she consider a trial separation from her husband because an unhappy (but not highly conflicted) marriage was keeping her from feeling better. Jessie recounted the exchange: when she told her counselor that she was committed to her husband, the therapist kept repeating that she may not be happy again if she stayed in this marriage and that a “break” might help her. Upset with this counselor, Jessie turned to her priest, who also stunned her by suggesting that if her marriage problems were causing her depression, he could help her get an annulment, given the newness of the marriage. As with Monica, Jessie turned to me to ask whether this kind of undermining intervention was common in the field—and what she should do next.

In another example, the anxious wife of a verbally abusive husband who was not dealing well with his Parkinson’s disease reported that she was told at the end of the first therapy session in her HMO, which offered only brief therapy, that her husband would never change and that she would either have to live with the abuse or get out.(2) She was grievously offended that this young therapist was so cavalier about her commitment to a man she had loved for 40 years and who was now infirm with Parkinson’s disease. She came to me to find a way to end the verbal abuse while salvaging her marriage. When I invited her husband to join us, he turned out to be more flexible than the other therapist had imagined. He, too, was committed to his marriage, and he needed his wife immensely. That was the leverage, along with a change in medications, for him to start treating her better.

One of my students experienced serious postpartum depressions after the births of her two children. She told me that both of the therapists she had seen at different times challenged her about why she stayed married to a husband who did not understand her needs. (Her husband was befuddled by his wife’s moods and sometimes became impatient with her, but he was not, according to my student, a mean-spirited man). In the first session, one therapist said in a challenging tone of voice, “I can’t believe you are still married.” Although it’s fully possible that my student invited these responses by potent criticisms of her husband, it’s the job of a therapist to hold the presenting sentiments of a depressed, postpartum client with a degree of caution before giving advice about ending a marriage. However, as Schwartz (2005) observed, because of our empathic engagement, therapists are “powerfully drawn to our patient’s point of view in their assessment of others” (p. 276).

A final illustration involves a friend who went to a well-regarded therapist for his depression. After a number of months, the therapist requested that his wife come to a session. The following week after the conjoint session, the therapist recommended that, on the basis of what she had observed and heard from the client, he consider divorcing his wife. My friend responded emphatically that divorce was not on the table for him and that he loved his wife and was committed to her. The therapist persisted, maintaining that his marriage problems were complicating his depression. My friend pushed back even harder: “There is not an ounce of interest in my body for divorcing my wife.” The therapist’s final words were, “I’m just asking you to think about it.” As in the other stories, my friend contacted me for help in understanding what had just happened, wondering whether this was standard care in the field. In this case, part of his confusion was that he felt he had received excellent treatment from a therapist he had sought out because of her strong reputation. How could a therapist who seemed so thoughtful and skilled in treating his depression be so clueless and undermining when it came to his commitment to his marriage?

Why Many Therapists Approach Marital Commitment This Way

These illustrations should not be dismissed as examples of random bad therapy or incompetent therapists—or just the biased recollections of the clients. (As I said, although no doubt clients sometimes misinterpret their therapists, when similar stories come up repeatedly, including from colleagues as clients, they cannot be dismissed.) In my view, these stories reveal the challenge for many therapists of how to think about and address clients’ life commitments in situations when those committed relationships are sources of pain and distress. It’s not that therapists deliberately undermine marriages; the rub comes when the marriage seems to be harming their client or keeping them from achieving their therapeutic goals. As I have repeatedly argued, when we lack a way to think about ethical issues in everyday life, we fall back on the mainstream cultural priority of individual self-interest. We challenge clients to privilege their immediate self-interest over relational commitments. This looks like neutrality, but it’s a heavily value-laden stance, one the therapist is usually not conscious of holding in an individualistic culture.

I was not immune to this way of working as a young therapist. I learned to treat the divorce decision with what I thought was neutrality. I remember working with Mary Ann, a 35-year-old woman in an unhappy marriage who wanted individual help to decide whether to keep working to change her marriage or end it.(3) She and her husband had two small children. This was the height of the divorce boom in the 1970s, and a number of her friends had recently left their husbands. Mary Ann felt stifled in a bland relationship with a man who didn’t connect with her emotionally in the way she wanted and who expected her to do the lion’s share of the parenting and housework, along with her part-time job. Sound familiar as a marital complaint? As I sat with her, I realized that I’d never been taught how to work with someone on the brink of divorce. My training in marriage therapy started with the assumption that both parties wanted to stay together, at least for the time being. My training in individual therapy had taught me that my job was to help my clients clarify their feelings, needs, and goals and then make their own decisions without my values and viewpoints getting in the way.

So, I did a kind of rational-choice consultation with Mary Ann, helping her clarify what she’d gain or lose personally from her decision. “How would your life improve from leaving your marriage,” I asked, and “What might it cost you to leave?” I asked the same about staying: “What are the pluses and minuses of remaining in the marriage?” (I was studying statistics at the time and even imagined a two-by-two contingency table!) When she worried aloud about the effects of a divorce on her kids, I responded, “The kids will be fine if you’re happy with your decision.” Mary Ann ultimately decided to file for divorce and start a new life.

Even at the time, I felt odd about treating this client’s dilemma as if it were a decision that only affected her. And I felt sad that another not-so-bad marriage was biting the dust. Not that I’d have admitted this to a supervisor or peer, because a hallmark of a good therapist in my circles was to be cool about the rash of divorces we were seeing among our clients and peers. No one wanted to come across as a moralistic marriage saver. Divorce was a hard-won right and a legally supported, no-fault personal choice. At this point in the early 1980s, Putnam (2020) observed that “expressive individualism framed marriage as a limited liability contract dissolvable with a ‘no fault divorce’—‘expressive divorce’” (p. 152). The common wisdom was that a therapist should not get too involved beyond clarifying the options and supporting the client’s autonomy.

Looking back, I’m struck by my naiveté about what’s involved in leaving a marriage, especially one with children, and my innocence about my lack of influence on the outcome. Like most people facing this decision, Mary Ann was caught in a morass of ambivalent feelings and values. (Harris et al., 2017, documented the volatile ups and downs of divorce decision making). She’d made a lifelong commitment to her husband and now was considering withdrawing it. She wondered whether her expectations for this husband, or any husband, were realistic. She hadn’t done much psychological work on herself and didn’t have an idea of what good marriage therapy might accomplish. She worried about her economic future, and she was deeply concerned about the effect of a divorce on her children, who’d lose their daily connection to their father, take a financial hit, and face a series of substantial life changes. She also believed that her parents and friends would be shocked and upset with her if she left the marriage.

Mary Ann’s journey toward her decision was, like most people’s, highly unstable and marked by ambivalence (National Divorce Decision-Making Project, 2015; Vaughn, 1990). But despite this instability and the high stakes, I treated her as if she were thinking of changing jobs from Walmart to Target: what does each company offer you, and what would be the downside of staying or switching jobs? And, by the way, you owe nothing to your current employer as you make this decision. Maybe her choice of divorce was the best one, and maybe she would have made the same choice regardless of how I’d worked with her. But she deserved a complex therapy to match the complexity of her dilemma, not an oversimplified, “neutral” therapy that failed to engage both sides of her ethical dilemma. Her husband, children, and future grandchildren also deserved better from me. As the novelist Pat Conroy (1978) famously wrote, “Each divorce is the death of a small civilization.”

As therapists, we are midwives for relational deaths and rebirths, the shattering and rebuilding of committed intimate relationships that are at the heart of human experience. But you won’t find much training, writing, or even conversation among therapists about how we handle these moments in therapy. The result is that we’re each left to make things up on our own, mostly using the implicit ethical norms embedded in our culture and profession.

Adults’ Commitments to their Parents

Riding in an elevator once in Singapore, I saw a sign for one of the floors of the government center labeled something like “Parent Court.” When I inquired, I learned that it was a place where parents who felt neglected by their adult children could seek the help of the court to enforce filial obligations. I knew I wasn’t in Kansas anymore! In the United States and similar Western countries, adult children have no legal obligations to care for their parents (just as the parents have no legal obligations to their children when they turn 18). Adult familial relationships are voluntary in the ethical realm, not the legal one.

The field of psychotherapy has been hard on parents from the beginning, seeing them as primary sources of the pathologies in their offspring. Whether it’s toilet training in traditional Freudian theory or inadequate attachment bonds and authoritarian or permissive discipline in contemporary models, there are plenty of parent deficiencies to sort through with clients in therapy. However, I suspect that the working assumption among therapists was that you could work to recover from poor parenting in the past while still having a relationship with your parents in the present. That began to change in the 1980s with the rise of cultural interest in “the dysfunctional family,” including intrafamilial sexual abuse and codependency on problematic parents and other family members (Bass & Davis, 1988). Parents were not just toxic influences from the past; they were continuing to harm their adult offspring in the present. What’s more, they could be a threat to their grandchildren.

From the mid-1980s through at least the mid-1990s, many therapists joined the recovered memories movement in the field, believing without evidence, for example, in the near pervasiveness of multiple personality disorder brought on by intrafamilial sexual abuse (Acocella, 1999). I recall case consultations where therapists, again without evidence, said that 90% of women with bulimia had a history of incest in their families. The next wave was about the since-discredited claim of widespread satanic ritual abuse of babies and children. The upshot was a wave of therapist-encouraged cut- offs from parents and often from other family members who did not accept the claim of that abuse. Parents would receive “goodbye” letters, crafted with the encouragement of therapists, from their adult children, especially their daughters, who were more apt than their sons to be in psychotherapy. Our field got caught up in a huge wave of cultural negativity about family life (Wylie, 1993).

Eventually, there was a cultural pushback, highlighted by a New Yorker article and subsequent book by investigative journalist Lawrence Wright (1994) on satanic cult accusations and an acclaimed PBS Frontline episode, “Divided Memories” (Bikel, 1995), which featured a high-profile therapy clinic where nearly all clients were encouraged to achieve the goal of “detachment” by cutting off from their parents and, in some cases, from their spouses and even their children while they recovered their sense of self. In these and other cases around the country, the therapists involved were proud of their work and had a theoretical model behind it (if no research data). After successful lawsuits ensued, therapists quietly abandoned their practice of suggesting family abuse via recovered memories, and they stopped taking as accurate the notion of large numbers of dead babies as a result of satanic cult abuse.

But the idea of a therapeutic cutoff from parents (and siblings who ally with the parents) had been loosed in the field and continues in practice and books by therapists for the lay public, such as Campbell’s (2019) But It’s Your Family…: Cutting Ties With Toxic Family Members and Loving Yourself in the Aftermath. That author described in detail how she came to cut off all contact with her pathological father and mother, and she urged the same for her readers after they evaluated whether the criteria she offered fit their parents.

In the mid-1990s, as my own children were entering college, I gave a presentation to a group of college counselors that included interns and staff. The topic was the value of seeing college students as members of families instead of just as emancipated individuals. I will never forget an exchange with a junior staff therapist who asked, “Aren’t there times when the student’s family is so toxic, not only in the past but also still now, that it’s best that the student break off a relationship with them?” I replied that I had seen some tragic cases where the past abuse was not only denied but also continued with intensity and that in those cases, it can be useful for a young person to take a time-out from connecting with family. Then I thought to ask, “I’m curious. For what percentage of your caseload do you believe a family cutoff would be called for?” I froze in my chair when he said, “Maybe 40%.” The chill I felt was that I was soon to launch my oldest child to college—what if he developed emotional problems and saw this therapist? No one present offered a counterview, and we moved on after I mumbled something about this not being my experience. In retrospect, I wish I had challenged him about how he came to his perspective. It was a failure of nerve on my part that I vowed never to repeat.

I have heard many clients report encouragement by therapists to end relationships with parents and other family members, and I’ve seen this in my extended family. These days, whenever I hear about a definitive cutoff from family, I ask whether there is a therapist in the picture. To be clear, I believe that these therapists want to help their clients avoid unnecessary emotional pain by encouraging them to exit relationships that continue to cause this pain. It’s not that therapists hate families or that there are never situations that call for a strategic time away from abusive family members (in my mind, always with the hope for later reconciliation). Rather, these therapeutic interventions reflect a cultural orientation where all relationships are transactional—what is the benefit I am gaining versus the cost to my well-being? If the relative psychological cost of maintaining a family relationship is too high, the healthy thing to do is to end it. I later return to the case of Laura, whose story opened this book on the note of adult commitment to a difficult parent. Here I just note that Laura told me that she had several therapist friends who encouraged her to “ditch” her mother. Missing here are two ideas: first, that parent–child bonds are not psychologically disposable—they go on until the death of the parent and beyond—and second, that there is an ethical dimension to the parent–child (and other family) relationship. A permanent cutoff means that adult children have no moral obligation to respond to their parents’ current needs and the eventual frailty and end of life. These two levels—psychological and ethical— go together. Like it or not, we are emotionally tethered to our parents and they to their adult children. Therapists come and go, but not parents. As I’ve heard the psychologist Mary Pipher (2008) say, “Nobody calls out for their therapist on their deathbed” (p. 2).

I don’t have a one-size-fits-all formula for obligations to parents, especially when the parents are in need of support and help. There are so many factors, including the history of the relationship. Obligation to a parent who abandoned you at birth and has now reentered your life wanting support will look different from obligation to a parent who has shown consistent care and support over the years. How much to be involved personally, with openness and vulnerability, with a frail or dying parent will depend on how much emotional safety there is in the relationship. Then there is the complex issue of what forms of help are, well, helpful. As asked earlier in this book, when is taking a parent home to one’s own house the best decision for all concerned versus placing the parent in a care facility? Culture comes into play here: in some cultures, an out-of-home placement is seen as an act of cruelty, while in others, is it considered loving when done at the right time. My main point here is that the job of the therapist is to help the client navigate these difficult waters, discerning the interests of the self, parent, one’s spouse and children, and others. Moral foundation theory can help to sensitize us to competing ethical intuitions: care/harm, fairness/reciprocity, and respect for authority seem particularly relevant here. Good ethical consultation does not mean that the therapist has the answers but that the therapist honors the client’s commitment to parents in light of all the other factors involved.

The Craft of Ethical Consultation about Commitment

I use the LEAP-C (listen, explore, affirm, offer perspective, challenge) skills to demonstrate strategies for ethical consultation when commitment to a marriage or a parent relationship is on the table—that is, when a client is struggling about staying in a marriage or about cutting off or withdrawing support from a parent in need.

Listen

Listen for the ethical part of the client’s decision making. For marriage, it might be a dilemma over personal happiness versus the original commitment or the needs of the children. For adults with their parents, it might come out in the form of the client’s guilt, sometimes accompanied with resentment, over not doing enough for one’s parent. As with all forms of listening in ethical consultation, it’s important to give a full hearing to both sides of the dilemma and to how the client is expressing a number of moral intuitions in light of their life experience and their culture, including intuitions such as authority and loyalty that do not come readily to mind for a Western therapist. In Laura’s situation with her challenging, soon-to-be-frail mother, I listened carefully to her ambivalent feelings and thoughts: on the one hand, self-protective ones for herself in the face of current and future burdens (the current one focused on her mother’s criticisms, and the future one added caregiving) and, on the other hand, a sense that it would be wrong to cut off her mother. Her friends were listening mainly to the self-protective side of her ambivalence. Laura said she came to me for therapy because she believed I would also listen to the other side.

Explore

The nuances emerge during exploration. For parent dilemmas, these include the quality of the relationship now and in the past, the possibility of manipulation versus genuine need, the availability of other caregivers such as siblings, and the resources of the client to help the parent in light of other obligations. Often a decision will emerge from this exploration, one that the client can live with in terms of resolving the tension between personal needs and responsibility for parents.

For Laura, the exploration revealed the details underlying her sense that she could not just walk away from her mother: it didn’t seem right as the only child of a widowed parent. But she also lived with an emotional burden of listening to her mother’s weekly phone monologues about how others don’t treat her fairly, including her daughter. Her mother also offered critiques of Laura’s mothering (those hurt the most). I especially paid attention to how the client responded to her mother on these calls, uncovering how passive and annoyed she would become but not set limits. This exploration opened up possibilities for her to remain regularly in her mother’s life while building healthier boundaries.

In terms of marital commitment, the following is a series of exploratory questions that I developed for a specialized approach to couples work called discernment counseling, where at least one spouse is considering ending the marriage (Doherty & Harris, 2017):

  • What has happened to your marriage that has gotten you to the point where you are considering divorce? Notice that this is not framed as “What are the problems?” or “Why are you unhappy?” but in terms of the marriage being a major part of the client’s life that is now under question.
  • What have you or your spouse done to try to repair the relationship—to fix the problems before you got to the point where divorce is on the table? This question carries the assumption that marital commitment is worth an effort to find a way to maintain—the relationship deserves repair attempts if it’s broken.
  • What role, if any, do your children play in your decision making about the future of your marriage? This delicately crafted question brings the needs of the children into the conversation in a way that gives the client space to respond in a variety of ways.
  • What were the best of times in your relationship since the time you met— the times you had the most connection and joy? This question brings clients back to what they used to love about their spouse and what led to their original commitment.

The point behind questions like these is to show that exploring ethical dilemmas over commitment can involve more than “tell me about both sides of your struggle.” There are lots of nuances and often more than two stakeholders— for example, third parties such as children who will be affected by the decision. Laura, for example, weighed the effect of a parental cutoff on her children, who would grow up without contact with the grandmother.

Affirm

Affirming involves acknowledging and supporting the client’s ethical commitments. In Laura’s case, I explicitly affirmed her moral sense that she should not take her therapist friend’s advice to “dump” her mother like a bad boyfriend. I used words like these: “I appreciate that you want to do right by your mother even though she’s a difficult mother. It’s not easy, but you’ve decided it’s important that you stay in her life, especially at this time when she’s pretty much alone.” Laura sat up straighter in her chair and said, “Right. That’s the path I have chosen. Now I want to figure out how to do this and keep my sanity.”

Affirmations on divorce decisions are trickier because of the inherent volatility involved for many clients in coming to a conclusion. When clients bring up their ethical concerns, say, about their marriage vows or the children, I affirm them without suggesting that those concerns are determinative—they don’t necessarily mean staying in the marriage. It’s just that commitment has an important role in the decision. In contrast to how I used to dismiss these concerns, I’ve learned to simply acknowledge and accept them with language such as “I appreciate that you are taking seriously your original commitment to your marriage; leaving is not something you take lightly,” or “I hear your concerns about the children, and I’m glad you are taking these concerns seriously. There is a lot at stake all around.” By the way, many older clients with adult children and grandchildren are concerned about hurting these stakeholders. I affirm that concern as well. And, of course, I affirm the client’s right to think about their pain and harm to self from staying in a bad marriage and their concerns that a highly conflicted marriage can also be harmful to the children. That’s why it’s an ethical dilemma: there are legitimate needs and claims in tension.

Perspective

As mentioned, it’s often not necessary to share one’s perspective on an ethical dilemma because clients sort out how to proceed with the help of the listening, exploring, and affirming skills. In situations when commitment is in play, however, clients can often benefit from the therapist’s perspective on how to have a healthy, satisfying life while maintaining commitments to others, such as a difficult spouse or a burdensome parent. Self-sacrifice for the sake of ethical commitments can be difficult to sustain and, in some cases, may not be healthy or wise (as with an abusive spouse who will not seek help).

In the case of Laura, I shared a perspective this way:

ME: I hear you on your desire to be a supportive daughter to your mother—saying goodbye to her is not an option for you. Now let’s talk about how you can support her in a way that’s healthy for you. The current situation is not working: you feel burdened by her weekly calls, stressed for a day beforehand, and upset for a day or more afterward. You go through the week with negative thoughts about her and then feel guilty for being so negative. Do I have that right?

LAURA: Yes, exactly.

ME: So, your bind is that you don’t feel like a good daughter when you are in touch with her, and you would not feel like a good daughter if you abandon her. [Notice that I used explicitly ethical language— “good daughter”—because the client had been using that kind of language. I did not substitute nonethical language such as “responsive” or “measuring up”].

LAURA: Oh, my, yes!

ME: So, let’s think together about two things: what might be going on for your mother that she acts this way and how you can learn a healthier way to interact with her. Right now, it doesn’t seem as if you have good boundaries with her on the calls—you let her go on and on, and when she criticizes you as a mother, you’ve said you defend yourself and feel angry at her. My idea is that we would work to find a way for you to have healthy boundaries with your mother on these calls so that you feel you are there for her and protecting yourself at the same time. And by the way, it’s not healthy for your mother when she treats you poorly. So, a better-boundaried relationship would be good for both of you.

Here, I was offering a perspective on how Laura could take care of herself and her mother at the same time. Over the course of our work, she did find helpful ways to listen to her mother’s complaints about her life while at the same time setting firm limits when her mother started to offer personal criticism of Laura’s mothering. All of this was standard therapy work on my part. The point of emphasis for present purposes is that I framed this, in part, as ethical work, a way to resolve a moral challenge for the client who had wondered whether it was unhealthy of her not to walk away from her mother as others, including her therapist friends, had advised her.

In terms of offering perspective on divorce decisions, a key is to honor both sides of the ethical dilemma in two main ways:

  • Normalize the dilemma. It’s hard to know the right decision when dealing with ongoing personal suffering and hopelessness in a marriage, along with struggles about abandoning one’s commitment and putting one’s children at risk. And most people go up and down in their decision making.
  • Share concerns. When a client seems to be making an impulsive decision to divorce (say, right after learning of a spouse’s affair), the therapist can share some general wisdom about the value of slowing down in making a lifetime decision. I like to use the phrase of a wise collaborative divorce lawyer: “Divorce is never an emergency; it takes months to play out.” A separation can be an emergency decision when there is threat and risk, but deciding to divorce rarely has to be done immediately and in emotional turmoil. Another example of perspective is when a client seems to be downplaying a future consequence of a divorce. I recall a married man who thought that his adult children would readily accept his lover (because she was such a great person) if he ended the marriage to be with her. I offered an alternative perspective so that he could be more realistic in his decision making: the likelihood of resentment from his children, at least for some time. A final example was a client in a volatile marriage who said that he could just stay away from his wife until the last child left home in 6 years. I offered that I’ve seen this work sometimes for couples who already have a lot of distance and little conflict, but I wasn’t sure it would be feasible in his more engaged, high-conflict relationship, especially if it was his unilateral decision to stay married but be functionally single.

Challenge

To discuss challenges in intergenerational commitments, I switch to parent-to-child commitment because it’s more commonly needed there. Recall my discussion in the Introduction about Bruce, who was about to move away and abandon his children after his wife kicked him out of the house. When I asked him the exploratory questions of how he thought leaving his children would affect them, he replied, “I’m sure it will bother them for a while, but they’ll get over it before long.” Given the urgency of the risk (Bruce had come to what he said was a final session to wrap up our work before he left town), I decided to immediately challenge him with these blunt words: “I don’t think so. Walking out of their lives will affect them for a long time, even permanently.” Bruce soberly replied, “I know you’re right.” I asked why he thought what I said was right. “They will feel hurt and not understand why this happened. You know, I left my daughter in California the same way, and I think about how it affected her. I don’t want to do that again, but I don’t know if I can go back to that house and see my wife, not in the state that I’m in.” Bruce and I were now in accord that he wanted to keep his commitment to his kids. Our work now was to figure out how to do this while maintaining his fragile emotional equilibrium.

Ethical challenges require a caring relationship so that they don’t come across as judgmental. I recall a divorced father who learned that his 7-year-old son was calling his new stepfather “Dad.” My client felt terribly hurt and replaced. I empathized with his feelings. Then he told me that he had told his son that day that if he ever heard that he was calling his stepfather “Dad,” he would never see the child again. I was shocked and worried for the child, but I held on to the craft of ethical consultation by first connecting with my client:

ME: Joe, I know you are in a lot of pain about your divorce and scared to death about losing your kids’ love and affection. And I know that you would never intentionally harm your children. [Slight pause] I also have to tell you that what you said to Bobby probably hurt and wounded him and left him fearing that he could lose you. You are the only father he has, and he should not have to live with the fear that if he slips and calls someone “Dad,” he will lose you forever.

JOE: [Looking worried] Do you think he could feel that way? I just wanted to get through to him about me being the only one he calls Dad.

ME: I’m really worried for him right now. That was a big threat you made to him.

JOE: I can see it now. I was beside myself upset, and I took it out on him. What do I do now?

We went on to discuss how he could repair what he had done, beginning with contacting his son right after our session. We went over the words he could use to apologize and offer reassurance that his commitment was forever and not contingent on something his son would say.

Most therapists would be with me in cases of parent commitment to young children: ethical challenges can be appropriate there. When it comes to marital commitment, many therapists take a neutral stance on whether clients divorce and would be reluctant to go beyond sharing perspectives for the client to accept or not (Wall et al., 1999). My view is that while there can be good reasons to let go of a marital commitment, it’s a weighty ethical decision because it affects the welfare of at least one other person who made life decisions based on an expectation of continued commitment, and usually, there are additional stakeholders such as children and extended family members. Therefore, I am willing to challenge clients when I believe they are not including concern for other stakeholders in their decision making. Keep in mind that challenge generally only comes after using the other skills of listening, exploring, affirming, and offering perspective. Here are some examples:

  • Challenging a client to seek couples therapy. “I’m concerned that you are leaving your marriage without seeing whether it could become healthy again through good couples therapy.”
  • Challenging a client to let a spouse know the marriage is on the brink. “I realize you don’t think your spouse can change. Maybe so, maybe not. What I want to challenge you about is not signaling to her that you are so unhappy that you are considering divorce. It seems to me that she is owed a chance to see whether she wants to make changes that might preserve the marriage. She’s flying blind now.”
  • Challenging a client about ending a good-enough marriage when the client is depressed or in personal crisis. This challenge can take two forms: appealing to self-interest (“I’m worried that you will do something that you will regret when you are in a better emotional place”) and appealing to the interests of others (“This decision is going to affect a whole lot of people, such as your kids, and I’m worried that it’s hard for you to fully consider those consequences when you are feeling the way you do. You could look back with regret about the fallout”).

I end this chapter’s discussion of ethical commitment with words I wrote in Soul Searching:

Our therapy caseloads are like Shakespearean dramas suffused with moral passion and moral dilemmas. But we have been trained to see Romeo and Juliet only as star-struck, tragic lovers, while failing to notice that the moral fabric of parental commitment was torn when their families rejected them because of who they loved. We focus on the murder of Hamlet’s father and Hamlet’s own existential crisis, rather than on how Hamlet’s mother abandoned her grieving son. Commitment to loved ones, and betrayal of that commitment, are central moral themes in the human drama played out in psychotherapy every day. (Doherty, 1995, p. 46).

______

From The Ethical Lives of Clients: Transcending Self-Interest in Psychotherapy, by W. J. Doherty Copyright © 2022 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.

References:

1. This case example is from “Bad Couples Therapy: How to Avoid Doing It,” by W. J. Doherty, 2002a, Psychotherapy Networker, (November/December), pp. 26–33 Copyright 2002 by The Psychotherapy Networker, Inc. Adapted with permission.

2. This case example is from “Couples on the Brink: Stopping the Marriage-Go-Round,” by W. J. Doherty, 2006, Psychotherapy Networker, (March/April), pp. 30–39. Copyright 2006 by The Psychotherapy Networker, Inc. Adapted with permission.

Judgmental Health

Call me naive. I am still taken aback when therapists—who are trained to be empathic, to start where the client is, to put aside their own values—are agonizingly judgmental of their own kind.

Perhaps it is because we all to some extent have a professional persona that is different from how we are with our friends and family. So maybe when we are “on,” we’re able to keep the judgment out of the conversation, but when we’re on our own time we forget? (Although truth be told I’ve heard stories from my clients of previous therapists who were painfully judgmental even with their clients in the therapy room.)

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I am a little weary of hearing comments like the following in therapist-oriented conversations, podcasts, and discussion groups:

“I don’t see how anyone can do trauma work without discussing issues of [race, family of origin, body image, etc.].”

“I don’t know how I was even effective before I learned [name of technique]!”

“If you haven’t done [name of method I personally use], you haven’t done couples counseling.”

 

These indirect digs at other therapists hurt. Too often, I’ve left Facebook groups that turned into feeding frenzies; I’ve even witnessed therapists chased off such groups for not falling into line on some issue or other. This problem seems even worse when social and political issues enter into the discussions. Did you know that it’s possible to be a social worker and also, for example, be pro-life? Or to be a couples counselor who believes in polyamory, or one who doesn’t? We can discuss and debate these issues at great length. Is it really necessary for colleagues to belittle and besmirch those who disagree with each other? (Answer: no!)

Friends, let’s please not do this to each other. There’s more than one way to skin a catharsis. In fact, there are many. New evidence-based modalities are coming out every year, and research has shown that the style of therapy being used has surprisingly little impact on client outcomes relative to the relationship between client and clinician. This means that the modality one clinician uses isn’t any better than what the therapist down the street uses. You can do you, and I can do me, and let’s all do what we can to help those who are seeking our help.

I frequently let my clients know that if what I’m doing doesn’t work for them, there are other clinicians out there with different styles and techniques, and I would be more than happy to make a referral if they’d like to try something I can’t offer. I wish more therapists had an equally pluralistic view of the range of therapy models out there and the clinicians who practice them.
 

Neither am I, for my part, judging those therapists. I am dismayed by their perspective and by their parochialism, but I understand that they, too, are coming from somewhere—whether it is their own pain, insecurity, dogmatic upbringing, or training. I am not denouncing as much as I am asking for change in the way (some, but not all) clinicians relate to each other (especially on social media).

Whether a clinician uses CBT or EMDR, whether they lean psychodynamic or experiential, whether they consider themselves client-centered or systems-oriented, there’s room at the table for all. And since the demand for mental health care has exploded these past few years, with no sign of letting up any time soon, the time seems particularly right for putting a few more chairs around that table. We want you at the table. We need you at the table.

There is enough ugliness and pain in the world without professionals who share the core values of empathy and compassion turning on each other. We don’t need Twitter-shaming. We don’t need the public call-outs. We don’t need the passive insinuations. What we need is for clinicians to value and honor each other, and the contributions they each make to the greater good. When we do this, the profession is a far richer one, and the community of care expands rather than constricts.

Diversity is not just about race or gender. Every person’s unique self—this is true of clients and clinicians alike — is worthy of admiration and esteem. Synergizing our strengths makes this world a better place, one session at a time.

Clients Deal with Ethics Too

If you use the phrase “ethical issues in therapy,” every therapist on the planet will assume you mean the ethics of the therapist—confidentiality, client autonomy, duty to warn. Licensure renewal typically requires ongoing continuing education in ethics. Ethical questions show up in our clinical consultation groups in the form of our obligations to our clients and how we make sure we don’t inadvertently harm them. Ethics and our ethical obligations to both clients and the profession are ubiquitous in the fields of psychotherapy and counseling.

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Here’s a new thought: clients have ethical concerns, too. And a related thought: we therapists have approximately zero training in how to help clients address these ethical concerns. A partial list of ethical dilemmas that clients bring to therapy includes whether to: stay in a difficult marriage or divorce, maintain a secret affair or end it, cut off or stay connected to a difficult parent, tell a non-vaccinated loved one to skip a family gathering or let them come, keep a family secret or reveal it. And then there are ethical issues that the therapist sees but the client may not, such as when a divorced parent is undermining a child’s relationship with a despised and destructive ex-spouse.

As someone trained in the 1970s, I can tell you how I was taught to deal with these ethical dilemmas. Keep the focus on the client’s personal needs and desires (“What do you need to do for you?”) and steer the client away from the other side of their ethical dilemmas—their sense of responsibility to others. In the language of the day, we learned to discourage clients from “shoulding” themselves.

This “do what works for you” paradigm came crashing down for me in the 1990s, when I worked with a distressed, newly-divorced father I’ll call Bruce, who was about to abandon his children by moving away and starting a new life. He had already done the same thing after his first divorce in another part of the country. He came to a session to wrap up our work and say goodbye. I knew I had to try to influence him to do the right thing by his children, but nothing in my training had prepared me for that conversation. What skills could I call on to navigate between the Scylla rock of silent neutrality (“What do you need to do for you now?”) and the Charybdis whirlpool of prescriptive moralizing (“Just do the right thing for your children”)?

That case, along with readings about the cultural impact of “value-free” individualistic psychotherapy, helped me to realize that the therapy field has a blind spot when it comes to ethical issues in the lives of clients. In this context, “ethical issues” refers to client behavior that has consequences for the welfare of others. We either see clients’ ethical struggles in strictly psychological terms, like the punitive superego, or as something we ought to steer clear of lest we impose our values on clients.

A problem with either of these default positions is that they do carry an implicit ethical message: that the only moral stakeholder is the client. An exclusive focus on asking, “What do you need to do for you?” carries the message that complex ethical dilemmas involving tension between self-needs and obligations to others really come down to one dimension: the needs and desires of the self. For years I told clients agonizing over whether to divorce that “your kids will be fine if you do what makes you happy.” My point is that when clients bring us their ethical dilemmas, we are ethical consultants, like it or not. So I decided it was time to get good at it.

In my recent APA-published book, The Ethical Lives of Clients, I articulate five skills in ethical consultation, using the acronym L.E.A.P.-C: Listen, Explore, Affirm, offer Perspective, and (sometimes) Challenge. Therapists use these skills all the time in our work. Now I am applying them to the client’s ethical issues: listening for the client’s sense of how their actions are or potentially are affecting others, exploring their ethical concerns and the roots of those concerns, affirming their willingness to confront an ethical dilemma, offering perspective on the tension between the client’s needs and responsibilities to others, and, in some cases when there is imminent, foreseeable harm, challenging the client to consider the impact of their actions on others.

After decades of doing this work and teaching it to therapists, I am convinced that skillful ethical consultation not only does not drive clients away—a common therapist worry—it empowers them. With Bruce, I listened to and explored his pain and worries, I affirmed him as a father, I offered a perspective on his importance to his children and the likely consequences if he abandoned them, and finally, when he minimized the impact of his exiting their lives, I challenged him by saying that I was worried that he was treating a short term problem (his distress over the divorce and his desire not to have to deal with his ex-wife anymore) by risking long term damage to his children. I offered to be there for him to deal with his current personal crisis, which I was confident he could get through.

Bruce made a decision that had integrity for himself and his children—he stayed with them and later reconnected with his older children from his previous marriage. In the years since that case, I’ve learned that while there is tension in the short run between needs of self and ethical responsibilities to others, in the long run, human flourishing comes from facing the tension and finding authentic ethical integrity. Helping people in this crucible is part of our job as therapists, so let’s get good at it.

Confessions of a Student Counsellor

Both Sides Now

At the time of this writing, I have one semester to go before completing my Master of Counselling degree, and I am sixty-five hours into the one hundred required hours of counselling contact hours of my student placement. I am still unsure as to who has received the lion’s share of therapy during these sixty-five hours, my clients or me?

This has not been my first exposure to the rudiments of counselling, however—I had some years of experience in addictions counselling and case management and no shortage of support work in various fields to ease me into the relative displacement of a professional counselling placement. At forty-seven years of age, I have undergone many transitions and life experiences.

Nevertheless, the Masters has been quite a proficient primer and prodder of the all-too-many things I didn’t (and still don’t) know about counselling practice, and of the myriad of things that I need to know in order to provide effective and ethical therapy for a range of concerns and to a broad demographic.

Having had experience in various counselling settings—and being quite familiar with both sides of the counsellor’s chair—together with the fact that I consider myself an avid collector of knowledge, particularly in this field, I still felt a strange cognitive dissonance of both excited preparedness and complete inadequacy to the task at hand at the commencement of my placement. But that was then. At sixty-five hours in, I am a worldly veteran!

The first thing that stood out to me about my placement experience was how pretty much every session turned into a countertransference case study from my ethics class, except that I was the subject. I knew about countertransference. I had studied it. Experienced it. Was consciously aware of it. Prepared, I thought. But I never really had that meta-cognition before that one develops, both while counselling and in the post-session self-flagellation…ahem, reflective practice.

Almost every session seemed like a mirroring of the personal life struggles I had faced, parallel processes of my current situations, relatables that were bone deep. The client I was sitting with was recounting the very relationship issues I had struggled with. Of course I was batting for him! My heart was filled with sympathy, my responses were, albeit textbook, empathetic, while my mind was firing off mostly Andrew-shaped responses ready for delivery. Often, I would catch myself before essentially counselling myself instead of my client. Sometimes I was too late and would realise, embarrassingly, later that day or week. More often than not, in supervision. Or because of past supervisions.

Or I could be sitting in front of the horrifying ghost of my mother-self. That is, this particularly triggering, discomforting, and disquieting quality that my mother possessed which I painfully one day realised I had inherited, now (mostly) exorcised out of me (thank you therapists circa 2000-2004, 2008-2009, 2012-2013 and 2020-2021; you know who you are). Noticing the life force draining from my being, I would sometimes sit across from the ghost-client in a sorrowful-seething state of frustration, compassion, bewilderment, intrigue, and hopelessness. I could swing between feeling annoyed and way out of my depths to such misguided compassion that I would feel the urge to take them home and care for them.

Going it Alone

Something I knew before but re-experienced in a fresh new light during my placement is that a significant part of learning to be a counsellor is essentially done alone. There is generally no direct supervision. There is no one in the room to monitor the minutiae of one’s work. There is no direct feedback loop. It is not as if your supervisor has a document to proofread. There is no material structure to assess for imperfections or to correct. No one is surveying clients at the end of sessions to establish trainee performance. No one is there to say, “Hmmm, maybe when you froze for a minute and a half with silence…” or “Perhaps Texas Hold ’em Poker isn’t the most appropriate game to play in a session with a six-year-old…” Of course, there are opportunities to be observed by colleagues and supervisors or to record sessions and review them. But this is limited in its scope and practicability. And daunting as hell! Or as daunting as having my own personal therapy sessions broadcast to the world, perhaps. Being utterly exposed. Vulnerable.

Sitting with clients who have just expressed something, there are a plethora of potential responses in any given moment of a therapy session. Sometimes they flow readily and easily. At other times they feel forced. And in some cases, when a response hasn’t felt right, an also potential plethora of self-reflective doubt and questioning can follow: “Did I say the right thing?”; “How am I going with this client? Doesn’t seem to be any progress being made”; “What is the correct intervention to use here?”; “They have been coming for three sessions now, why won’t they volunteer something… anything?!” Being left to one’s own devices (well, me to mine) can leave one unsure at times about particular interventions to use, ways of progressing through impasse, whether or not to refer, whether I am beyond my professional competence, and one’s capacity to be a counsellor, which can undermine self-trust and even self-worth.

And then at other times, when I am feeling in my flow, when I have recognised counselling greatness in myself—you know, when a client has expressed eternal gratitude or you witness a breakthrough or an insight emerges—then I can quite easily develop that very shiny, bulletproof sheen of self-satisfaction and self-congratulation, feeling like the king of the counselling castle! Either polarity can be both misguided and unhelpful to me, I have discovered, and, left alone with such musings, can be a potentially missed opportunity to see beyond my own perspectives and to develop my practice.

Thank goodness we are not completely alone during this, at times, trial by fire. Having practicing colleagues around is such a comforting and valuable scaffold of support. I am fortunate to be doing my placement in a medium-size clinic providing both psychology and counselling services, so there are usually at least a few others to talk to or debrief to if needed. I am aware, however, that others’ placements are more isolated and devoid of such support, and I have witnessed the emotional and psychological strain that this can take. I am very grateful to be developing in the kind of environment where I feel supported and not alone. Hmmmm, maybe there’s a market for a Tinder-like app for counsellors in isolation?

I think there is a limit, however, to how far collegial support can go. There are certainly limits to my own (and I am guessing other humans’) capacity to expose oneself in the workplace. Especially as an up-and-coming trainee counsellor, wanting to exude competence and confidence at every opportunity (I am willing to admit that could just be me, but I suspect not). Clinical supervision during my counselling placement has been a great support and I think the site of my most focussed learning during this Masters and certainly during my placement. I am fortunate to have both group and individual clinical supervision. They are both supportive, instructive and provide opportunities to develop and learn from others’ practice. I have found that it is in individual supervision, however, that I have the greatest opportunity to be vulnerable and to shed light on the more shadowy areas of my practice. It feels a bit safer than group supervision and I like its structure, containment, consistency, and predictability.

Maybe Not Completely

I am fortunate that I was paired with an external clinical supervisor by my university placement team whom I like and respect, but, most importantly, with whom I feel safe. Safe to say (almost) anything to. Safe to expose my insecurities and doubts to, to be able to tell them what I did and said in a session, for example, without any debilitating apprehension. They provide safety and security in calling me out when needed, ensuring I understand my limits and blind spots. Kind of like a parent’s love in providing firm and consistent boundaries to an overly exuberant child. They encourage me and validate me, sharing their own stumbles and falls. But the catch is, as I recognised a while ago, I must be willing to be vulnerable and uncomfortable and wrong, again and again, to gain the most from this. I must be willing to be a beginner again and again and again if I am to grow and develop as a person and as a therapist. But this is hard to do at times. For fear of judgement (self and other), feeling inadequate and for (the generally unfounded) fear of finding out that maybe I am not cut out for this profession. The most satisfying, albeit challenging, learning I have experienced during this placement, and the Masters too, has been exposing myself in supervision.

Like when I reluctantly discussed a client I had seen once whom I suspected to be beyond my scope of competence. Reluctant because I was personally and professionally very curious and they claimed they weren’t in a position to engage in costly treatment options and so I really wanted to keep working with them. And I suspected that if I spoke about them in supervision (and to my line manager) that they would advise referral. But I did. And it was right. And I referred. It was frustrating and challenging, but a great experience to have in the sandpit. And I incidentally had reflected to me my potential for a hero complex. Ouch! But yes, probably accurate. Or when I spoke about how I responded to an awkward situation with a child client and their mother, suspecting I didn’t handle it very well and wanting input. And then getting feedback that challenged as well as expanded me, reinforcing that I really do not know what I do not know as well as not knowing what I do know, too. These things can sting for a bit, but I am a better counsellor for it.

Just like when I have been in therapy myself, the more I am willing to be vulnerable and uncomfortable and reveal those shadowy parts of myself, so too in my counselling role (especially as a trainee), the more I allow this, the more space I make within myself to expand. I make the space for learning and growth and development and career and life satisfaction and ideally to be a more effective therapist and, of course, to do no harm.

***

I recall a brief conversation I had with a university lecturer this year, a seasoned counselling psychologist and academic. I was reflecting on the challenges of not knowing it all and bemoaning if I would ever feel competent as a counsellor. Their response was heartening to me, then and now. They related to this feeling, stating that they still occasionally felt this way. But they also knew that they are a damn good therapist and a valuable resource for their clients. Nice.

Jude Austin on Wisdom for Counseling Students and Educators

Into the Wilderness

Lawrence Rubin: Why did you entitle your latest book “Surviving and Thriving in Your Counseling Program?” It sounds like you’re sending them out into the wilderness with a backpack and a knife and saying, “Good luck. Let me know how you’re doing in three years.”
Jude Austin: When my brother Julius, who is also my writing partner, and I were thinking about the title for this book, that’s the image we had in our minds. You get equipped in graduate school with these different tools, skills, and attitudes and then go off and get your Ph.D., and you think you’re prepared.

But when you’re sitting in that first session unsupervised, you just feel this sense of, “I need an adult and a Swiss Army knife of some type.” So, that’s kind of what we wanted this book to be—a Swiss Army knife for counseling students and counselor educators who were reading it and feeling out of touch with their students like, “Hey, this is what they’re going through!" So yeah, we wanted it to come across as if this was your guide to surviving but also thriving in your counseling program.
LR: Sort of a field guide to counselor educators and counseling students and an army knife with different utilities. Can graduate counseling programs ever adequately prepare students for what’s to come?
JA:  
when you’re sitting in that first session unsupervised, you just feel this sense of, “I need an adult
That’s the million-dollar question. It depends on the type of program—and there are different types. You have programs that train clinicians, and then you have programs that train people who become clinicians. The counseling program that I teach in at the University of Mary Hardin Baylor focuses on the person of the therapist.

When beginning therapists (interns) are out there in the clinical wilderness, and all their practiced techniques fail, we want them to fall back on themselves as the tool. If a counseling program focuses on developing the person, their attitudes, awareness, and then helps them to develop some skills along the way, then I think that person has something solid to fall back on.
LR: What happens when you have a counselor educator who understands the importance of building self, self-esteem, and relational, not just technical, skills, paired with a student who thinks that they’re the finished product? Or perhaps an older student whose cup is already too full or a younger one who hasn’t yet been put in a position where they’ve been tested either interpersonally or emotionally?
JA: I struggle with that sometimes. We get students who come in with already-filled cups because they’ve had a successful career or currently have many competing obligations including family. They may feel like, “I know this. All I really need is for you to give me that paper at the end of this, and I’ll be fine.

I see that as an invitation to build a relationship with that student so that we can model the relationship we want them to have with clients
I see that as an invitation to build a relationship with that student so that we can model the relationship we want them to have with clients. I don’t see that confidence or arrogance as a threat, and I don’t want to humble them. I feel like that’s what a lot of counselor educators tend to do anyway; something like “We’ve got to do something that will break them down.”
LR: Drop them to their knees.
JA: Yeah, drop them to their knees! I feel like a better approach—or at least one that’s helpful for me, is to help that student understand what they do know and what they don’t know. It’s not about bringing them down to where they can sit humbly with a client. It’s about saying, “Okay, what do you have that works for you? And what do you have that doesn’t work? And how can we work around that and use it to build a better counselor?”

Getting What They Need

LR: Have you encountered such students or those who are clearly trying to work through their own issues either early on in training or while they are actually providing therapy?
JA: That’s OK, because it gives us an opportunity to help the student learn boundaries, because counseling is like that. I mean we get the clients we need, and so this isn’t going to be the first time they’re going through these kinds of issues and those issues come up. So, our job, or my job as the counselor educator, is to help that student understand that boundary.

That counseling student is actually in a good position to use the issues that they have experienced or are currently experiencing to build a better relationship with a client. And when the student is at that boundary and it is hindering the therapeutic relationship, the teaching moment is right there in front of them, as is the teaching tool for their supervisor. What you don’t want to do is set the stage where a student feels like, “I’ve got to get my shit together, or I can’t do this.” That’s just not sustainable.
LR: I like the idea that we help students understand that sometimes they get the clients they need. Try as I might to selectively place interns in facilities where they’re not going to be thrown to the lions, they invariably end up not only with clients they need but also with those who are very complex and well-beyond their skill and experience levels.
JA:
what you don’t want to do is set the stage where a student feels like, “I’ve got to get my shit together, or I can’t do this”
As far as I do it in supervision, it’s really just helping them navigate those multiple and often complex relationships. I try to do my best to encourage students to chew on things before they swallow it. We start them in practicum at our free, university-based community clinic before sending them on to internship at an outside site.

During internship, we tell them something like, “Hey, you’re going to be hearing some stuff and be asked to do some things at the site that may run counter to what we said or what we’ve trained you to do. And so, you’re out there in the world.” And so, they begin to learn, “How do I integrate some of the things I learned in school with what I’ll learn here and not allow it to negatively impact my development as a counselor?” I think the key is helping students recognize and take ownership over their own development, so they can’t be manipulated or pushed or pulled when a supervisor asks them to do something different from what they have been taught or experienced while in school.
I’ve seen many a student who goes off into a site with a supervisor who is overwhelmed or unprepared or not trained to be a supervisor because they are first and foremost a clinician. And so, students lose confidence and get set back. We as clinical educators have to help them take ownership over and protect their own personal and professional development.
LR: And we have to protect students from supervisors who might be overwhelmed, overwhelming, and/or incompetent.
JA:
we as clinical educators have to help them take ownership over and protect their own personal and professional development
Up to a point, I don’t want to rob them of the learning experience of being next to somebody who may be incompetent, unavailable, unhealthy, or who may be just not be a good role model. I want them to learn that. It’s kind of like when my son is climbing up stairs for the first time, I don’t want to be next to him and holding his hand. I want him to struggle and wait for him to ask for help.

Similarly, it’s about teaching that student when they need to come and tell me that something is beyond their capabilities, especially when they’re in internship. Because when they’re in internship, we need to make sure that they know how to strike that balance between knowing when it is necessary to ask for help and when it is not. Otherwise, they won’t build strong roots.
LR: They have to have their own immune system.
JA: Yeah, exactly.
LR: So, being a clinical educator/supervisor requires that we also strike a balance; between protecting and…
JA: …letting them struggle.
LR: Just like the APA Code of Ethics says…promoting autonomy while also making sure that they’re not a danger to themselves or others.
JA: I’ve had many supervision sessions where we’re just like, “This sucks.” You also have to build a relationship with their site supervisor. Sort of like co-parenting.

Rising or Falling

LR: If you were called on by the ACA to write a formula for predicting failure of a graduate counseling student, what would go into that equation?
JA: I had two thoughts but will share my second one first, which is about counselor educators. I’m a big believer that oftentimes our limitations as counselor educators can then become our student’s limitations. And so, if a student is failing—or failing to thrive—for some reason, then I merely have to look inward and be congruent and be healthy about the responsibility I take in that student’s failure and think, “Wow, is this a support issue? Maybe I didn’t prepare them enough. Maybe we didn’t have a big enough informed consent around what this would mean for them,” right?
LR: So, the second part of your answer, which comes first, is that if a student is on a track to fail or is failing to thrive, then it is the counselor educator’s job to look within to ask, as a parent might, “How have I failed to support this student’s thriving?”
JA:
our limitations as counselor educators can then become our student’s limitations
Yes. What are my limitations here?
LR: What’s the other part of your answer?
JA: I think sometimes they can’t be helped. And sometimes students come in not expecting how challenging the program is, not giving the challenge of this enough respect. If I were to create a formula for predicting a counseling student’s failure, I would probably say it has something to do with lack of awareness or acknowledgement of how challenging this program is, plus maybe a lack of support. They know it’s going to be hard, because it’s graduate school. But I don’t think they know how hard graduate counseling is, graduate psychology is. It asks a bunch of questions of you that, if you aren’t prepared to answer, it can have a domino effect in your relationships and your mental health and your ability to process things.
LR: Conversely, what do you think are some of the characteristics of the counseling graduate student who will thrive not only in graduate school but in their career, in their personhood, in their lives?
JA: The #1 characteristic for me is humility.
LR: Yeah, amen.
JA: And not just humility in the sense of self-deprecation. I mean this humbleness around the idea that maybe their reality isn’t the correct reality, and their willingness to allow their client’s reality to be correct for that client. It’s about cultural humility, to be able to come in and say, “Oh, man. There are some things that I don’t know. There are some things that I don’t perceive about the world like everyone else does, but I’m willing to learn.”

it’s not like people who are wounded or hurting can’t do this work. It’s just they have to work on the stuff that they need to work on
I think that’s the humility that I’m talking about, to be able to say, “Okay. Here’s my stuff. I’m going to work on my stuff.” And I think that’s the clear thing. It’s not like people who are wounded or hurting can’t do this work. It’s just they have to work on the stuff that they need to work on. And when students are aware of that and they’re doing that parallel kind of process, then it’s a beautiful thing. I feel like that’s when students can be successful.

So humility, for me, is the thing that we’re trying to foster in counseling students. And to be honest with you, a lot of the students that we accept are already good at this. We just give them skills and tools in the hopes that when they get to internship, they’ll remember who they were when they first started the program. And then when they remember that person, they can be that person with some skills and attitudes and knowledge. And so, if you can go through that process humbly, I feel like you can stay grounded and remember who you are. That’s kind of my perspective.
LR: So, it’s the counselor educator’s job to teach counseling students to hold onto who they are and maybe shave off or trim those parts of themselves that are going to get in the way, so they can become more psychologically lean but hopefully learn to become the person who is a counselor, not a counselor who is not sure who they are as a person.
JA: Yeah. Now, that sounds easier said than done. And I think that also means that as counselor educators, we have to do that too. We have to model that for students. We have to let them into our experience and our journey of becoming, step-by-step, more and more ourselves in supervision, in class. Let them into that process and show appreciation. One of the things that I say after each class is, “Thank you for letting me be myself.” And I invite students to do the same. When I mess up, when I forget my keys and I have to walk back to my car or when it’s just like it’s not a good lecture, owning that and showing them that this is what we want you to do in session.

Healer, Heal Thyself

LR: In the context of this piece of the conversation, what are your thoughts about counseling as a mandatory part of counseling training?
JA: You know, it’s strongly suggested in our program, strongly suggested. I feel like we build a culture of support in the sense that we have alumni who are now working in the field who kind of understand a little bit of what students are going through. And so we try our best to refer them out to clinicians in the area that can help. But mandatory? If I could make it mandatory, I think I would be at least a couple sessions. Just so you can see how it feels.

But making it mandatory? I feel it could be detrimental for students who aren’t ready to process their stuff. I mean if they’re not ready, it doesn’t mean that they can’t be good counselors, but here’s the thing. If you’re not working on your stuff, if you don’t go to counseling, you may become a really good technician but not a clinician. You can go and do skills, you can go and do theories, you can go in and do techniques and activities. But can you really connect with somebody? Can you have a therapeutic presence that allows that client to feel pulled toward you and can you evoke your client’s awareness? I don’t know if you can do that without working.

one of the things that I say after each class is, “Thank you for letting me be myself.” And I invite students to do the same
Yeah, it’s a dilemma. In a lot of ways, it’s safer to do rather than be, right? How can you cultivate a therapeutic environment where you feel safe enough to be? Most counseling students are going to graduate and feel like, “I know some stuff now.” But I think what makes our program special is that we really focus on training students to be, but not every student is ready for that, and that, too, is a dilemma. I notice it sometimes in clients with whom I am trying to connect on a deeper level, and they don’t want it.

They want… “Give me the coping skills. I don’t want to talk about…” And so, you have to meet that client where they are. And it’s the same thing with students and the same thing with the field, like allowing students to hear, “Hey. This is where the field is. This is what we’re trying to get you to do. We’re trying to find a balance between doing and being.”
LR: So if a student is not ready for internship for emotional, psychological reasons, what do they do instead? How do you work with a student who just is not ready for internship by all your standards but is insistent or demanding or even litigious about it?
JA: We go through this a lot. We have a couple of different options. This is not like a plug for our program, because I think most programs have this. By the time they get to internship, we want them to have a really good idea about how we feel about their potential to succeed or fail. We don’t want it to be a surprise. And so, by the time they get to internship, we’ve had that conversation where it’s like, “Hey. There’s a lot of things that you… There’s a lot of hang-ups. There’s a lot of things that could limit your success there. If you want to do it, we can’t stop you, but it may behoove you to take some time and then come back and start internship.” And if students are like, “No. I’m good. I want to do internship,” then we help them find an internship and a supervisor that could support that student’s limitations.

So, sometimes we’ll have students who are veterans, and maybe they experienced a TBI and they struggle with death work. And they acknowledge it, they know it. And so, we work with them to say, “Okay. What kind of work can you do? Where can you serve your community?" And so we try to guide them into the place where they could be most successful. But sometimes, rarely perhaps, I have students who are not ready to integrate it, and we just have to kind of let them survive… or not, you know? And when they don’t, we’re there to support them.

The Right to Fail

LR: I had a supervisor once, a very wise older woman who loved the metaphor of a safari guide. Her idea was that “As we walk through the terrain, I’ll point out the quicksand. I’ll point out the thickets and the brambles. If you choose to go into the quicksand, I’ll be waiting on the edge if I can help you.”
JA: Absolutely. And students have a right to fail. They very much have a right. And I think that’s the thing that we try to get students to understand. It’s like they’re not paying for this degree, they’re paying for an opportunity to get a degree. And if they destroy that opportunity because they go into an internship site when they’re not prepared to do so, there’s nothing that we can do about it. Those internship sites can hire you and fire you. If you get fired, there’s consequences. We’re very open about that.
LR: Do you ever experience transference/countertransference relationships with your students?
JA: I think I can answer this question in a way that’s most favorable for me [smiling]. I just genuinely care about the students and their success. When we accept a student into our program, when I’m working with a student, I see the impact they can have in their community, the ripple effect that they can have. And all I want for them is to be successful.

watching them struggle is the hardest part
And so it’s triggering because it’s like watching someone doing something that is going to hurt them but allowing them to get hurt so they learn the lesson. I think that’s the hardest part about being a counselor educator. I think that’s the countertransference, especially because I’m a relatively new dad of a two-year-old and a four-month-old. It’s like that same process of watching them go through it and identifying with that struggle.

So you just have this sense of ownership over that person’s development. And then when they get to internship, you’re letting it go and that ownership transitions to someone else—their site supervisor. And so, watching them struggle is the hardest part. And we go through that every year, because there isn’t an internship cohort that doesn’t have one or two students who is realizing at that moment like, “Oh, crap,” as they fall behind. It’s brutal because they have to watch their cohort members move forward.
LR: You clearly have a heart for your students and want them to succeed, but I want to push you on this one. What about those counseling students that you don’t like? You know, the ones that burrow under your skin or those that you simply don’t care about or like?
JA: I just try to put obstacles in their way, which means that I have to have that conversation that I don’t want to have but I know I need to have with that student earlier than other students. Like with that student that is burrowing under your skin, I very much experience a parallel process where I’m saying, “If this person is affecting me this way, they’re probably going to affect clients this way as well.”

that’s what I mean by obstacles, like slowing down their process so that they can gain awareness of how they affect other people
And so, before they even get to apply techniques, which is the second semester where they first learn how to do mock sessions, we need to have a conversation. We need to have that talk like, “Hey, you know that thing that you do in class? That’s annoying, man.” And what I try to do is say, “Whenever you…” Like if a student has a loud laugh, that’s saying like, “Pay attention to me,” right? What I try to get them to do is, “When you laugh, pay attention to everyone else’s reaction. Pay attention. Feel how you affect other people.” That’s what I mean by obstacles, like slowing down their process so that they can gain awareness of how they affect other people. Because if they’re affecting me, they’re going to affect other people.
LR: So, what you’re trying to do is not simply model empathy or pray to God that they sort it out through osmosis or some other way. Sometimes, you have to really just actively teach them what it means to be empathetic because in therapy, the audience is watching. The audience is listening
JA: Worst-case scenario, you’re doing it live in class and the student does something and you have to say, “Hey, pay attention to how everyone is feeling around you. Would anybody like to share how this person is affecting you right now?" And then sometimes I may say something like, “This is how I’m experiencing you right now. You don’t have to respond to it. This is just how I’m experiencing it. Do you want to be experienced in that way? Is that what you’re trying to get me to experience you?" And I think that’s kind of the learning that we need them to get.
LR: So, counselor educators need to manage their triggers so they can be most present for their counseling students, just as we ask counseling students to have those qualities with their clients.
JA: Exactly.

Straddling Two Worlds

LR: How do you balance on that tightrope separating the supervisory and therapeutic aspects of your role as a counselor educator?
JA: I straddle that line as carefully as possible, because that’s probably one of the most unexpected challenges my doctoral program prepared me for. And they can’t really prepare you for that. So, the way that I keep a boundary around it is that when I’m with a student, I’m always thinking about learning opportunities. I’m always thinking about teachable moments. And so, there’s times when I go there with a student, especially when we’re processing deep stuff. But there is a stopping point when it gets to, “Okay. We’ve got to stop because I feel like this is what you need to process in therapy. This is what’s affecting the client, that you need to process that in therapy.”

I’m always thinking about teachable moments
But when I can cultivate a relationship with the student or supervisee that is safe, then sometimes in supervision I may feel like being open about, “Okay. We need to work through this so that you can better work with clients,” then, “Here’s where we’re going to work, and here’s where we’re going to stop.” Does that make sense? It’s almost like an instinctual knowing of when I’m going too far, when we’re getting too deep. And I can feel that with students. I may see them becoming uncomfortable. So, I want it to be a wisdom-based engine, and I don’t want that engine to spoil over into fear, because then they’ll push away.
LR: In this context, many counselor educators are also practicing clinicians, and I wonder if that is beneficial or detrimental.
JA: I have a small private practice here in Temple, and I don’t know how I would be able to do this job without seeing a client or two a week. And it’s mainly because sometimes when I haven’t worked with clients and I’m in front of the class with the alphabet behind my name, I feel like I am The Guy. And then I go into a session, and I’m humbled and reminded, “Oh, yeah. I don’t know what the hell I’m doing,” or, “This session got away from me.”

I feel like it becomes hard to manage whenever my practice hinders my health, when I’m scheduling, managing things when it’s overwhelming, when I’m burnt out, and my students become a secondary priority. That’s when I know, okay, something’s going on. But, yeah, I work with individuals, couples, families. And I usually have about four or five clients that I’m seeing in a semester.

Lifespan Issues

LR: How, as a parent to young children and also in a sense a parent to young, evolving clinicians, do you teach them about the uncertainty and our limited ability to influence others?
JA: I think you put them in situations intentionally where it’s grey and uncertain and watch them go through it. What we try to do is have a healthy balance between safety and ambiguity. We want clinical trainees to feel safe enough to be able to feel okay floating in the wilderness somewhere. We know where they’re at. They may not know where they’re at, but we want them to feel safe to be lost a little bit.

we want clinical trainees to feel safe enough to be able to feel okay floating in the wilderness somewhere
And so, I think that’s how you train them. It’s like you intentionally scaffold and build into your program situations, places, activities where students can get a healthy dose of “I’m just going to go with it, and I’m okay because I know I have a healthy attachment to my faculty.” It’s the same thing as a new parent. It’s like I know my relationship is strong when my son can play independently and then come back and check in and then play independently and then come back and check in.

It’s like he knows that he can wander and it’s safe to come back. Same thing with students, right? We want them to go off and explore a theory, a technique or try this out or bring this into session or bring this into practice and then come back and say, “I don’t know what I did.” You know what I mean? So yeah, building that in intentionally.
LR: You’re in a unique position, Jude, because you’re learning what it means to be a parent while you are shepherding counseling students into their professional identities. It makes me wonder—what are some of the challenges that clinical educators have who are later on in their life, who are no longer dealing with raising young children but perhaps launching teenagers, or have children who are getting married, or are dealing with their own mortality? How do counselor educators separate or merge the challenges in their own personal lives with what it is their students need in theirs?
JA: I feel like the challenges that the more-experienced clinician or the counselor educator may have are the same issues that the students may have who come in as they begin a second career. It’s arrogance, you know? It’s that idea that you know everything. You don’t see yourself as a student anymore. And I think that is the downfall of a good counselor educator, is when they feel like they know all there is to know.

I think the way that they can combat that is integrating the experiences that they have but not relying solely on those experiences. I think that’s the difference—if you’re integrating them, you say, “Gosh. I remember what it was like when my kid was two or when my kid was four. I remember when my kid was 13.” That’s the emotional age of some of these students. What did I do when my kid was 13, and what did I want to do that I didn’t do that I wish I could’ve done and I can do now with this student? I feel like those are the ways that you can kind of integrate those experiences into raising students.
LR: So, it goes back to sort of a thread that’s woven its way through this interview, which is that we as counselor educators/clinicians have to continue to evolve, to look inside. We have to impose that challenge on our counseling students. We can expect no less from our counseling students than we can for ourselves.
JA:
we as counselor educators/clinicians have to continue to evolve, to look inside
And we’ve got to have the courage to let them into our journey with that. You know, we’ve got to have the courage to say, “This is life. I’m tired. I’m exhausted.” We don’t have to put on that front. Because then students will do that, and then the clients will do that, and there’d be that butterfly effect where nobody’s really being themselves.
LR: Do clinical educators get the students they need?
JA: It’s that butterfly effect, right? It’s like this parallel process where my relationship to my supervisee will impact my supervisee’s relationship to their client, which will then impact that client’s relationship to their environment. And so, a lot of the times when I’m in supervision and we’re having that come-to-Jesus moment like, “Why do you have this client,” I also have to ask myself, “Why do I need this supervisee to have that client?”

And then I may start thinking, “What do I need to do in my life in order to be able to better support this student so that they can better support this client?” That becomes the question, right? But then the beauty of supervision is that you can outwardly process that with a student so that they can learn how to do that for themselves with a client. You can say, “Gosh, man. When you’re working with this client, this is what it brings up for me. This is my hang-up, and this is where I struggle to support you. Where in your life do you feel like this client is kind of poking?" This processing and processing is a beautiful thing when it’s done right. In a lot of ways, it can feel like inception. Sometimes you’re in supervision like trying to spin a top asking, “Are we in reality, or is this a dream?”

True Cultural Awareness

LR: This next question could probably stand as its own interview, but I can’t help but ask. What are the challenges that counselor educators face in really effectively teaching these students what cultural awareness means?
JA: The first thing that comes to my mind is that we’ve got to be mindful of our fragility as counselor educators and be willing to address things that make us uncomfortable talking about, things that make us squeamish. I feel like we’ve got to be aware of that. We’ve got to be aware of our political stances and how that influences our work and how it influences our teaching. We’ve got to be aware of our perspective, our biases, our thoughts, our perceptions of individuals who don’t look like us, don’t like the same people we like, don’t pray like we pray.

we’ve got to be mindful of our fragility as counselor educators
I think the key to fostering culturally humble students and clinicians is for us as counselor educators to be humble, to be mindful of our fragility, and be courageous enough to have those conversations in class. Each diversity class that I teach feels like Thanksgiving, because a lot of people’s families are uncomfortable around that Thanksgiving table. That’s what diversity class feels like.

I feel like what we have to do is to foster this atmosphere of openness around these discussions and safety in the classrooms. What we don’t want is for students to feel the tension or the discomfort, and that hinders their ability to go there. We need them to go there. And so, we have to be aware. We have to be humble. We have to be courageous. I think those three qualities can really help develop culturally-competent students.
LR: We recently released a three-video series, Counseling African American Men, featuring Darrick Tovar-Murray from DePaul University. In the conversations between Darrick and Victor Yalom, Psychotherapy.net’s founder, the idea came up that counselors need to learn to be comfortable with discomfort, which sounds like exactly what you’re talking about.
JA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve got it steeped in our program. We’ve got it steeped in security and safety with a little bit of ambiguity and discomfort. It has to be equal measures. We have to steep the students in there for two years and two semesters, you know?
LR: I’ve heard of the notion of “White Fragility.” What did you mean by fragility?
JA: You know, like those developmental stages. Like whether or not you’re in the early stages of identity development. Then you’re experiencing a lot of anger, right? Because that’s fragility too, right? We talk about this in diversity class. Sometimes, as a man of color, as an African American male, I have anger toward White men, White people, especially when I feel unsafe.

sometimes we can give off the impression as counselor educators that if you are a White counselor, then you can’t do culturally sensitive work
And so, when clients come in, sometimes that anger leeches into the therapeutic relationship. And I think that’s what I mean by fragility. It’s not that you can’t be angry. It’s that you have to be mindful of “How is this going to impact my therapeutic relationship, my work, my relationship with my peers, my relationship with my supervisor? What do I need to do to work through that?
LR: When I started at the university 32 years ago, the student body was White, and I have learned to be more aware of the privilege that comes with whiteness. And I have been put in very uncomfortable situations with my students. So, this idea of a counselor educator being comfortable with discomfort and modeling it is very important.
JA: Absolutely! And a lot of that has to do with just acknowledging when “This is uncomfortable.” Like, look around the room. What have we done as a program, as an organization? What have you done individually as a student to perpetuate this sameness? Let’s have that discussion. Because I think sometimes we can give off the impression as counselor educators that if you are a White counselor, then you can’t do culturally sensitive work.

I feel like that impression is dangerous, especially for White students. There’s so much opportunity for corrective emotional experiences for clients. If we train White counselor educators well, they can go out into their communities into the field and build strong relationships and repair relationships with clients. I mean, speaking for myself as a supervisor, it meant a lot to me to work with a supervisor, like when I was a student, who was White but who came into the relationship humble, aware, willing to acknowledge things. It was kind of like, oh, okay. Okay, we can do this. And it was even more impactful sometimes when that happened.
LR: Yeah. Do you think there’s an implicit expectation that, because you are a Black man, that you have a deeper sensitivity to cultural oppression and unfairness?
JA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the work we don’t get paid for. That’s fine with me, you know? That’s the stuff that they don’t add to the tenure packet. They don’t have a box for that on your year-end evaluation. It’s how many times you’re stopped in the hall and, “Hey. I’m trying to do this diversity thing.” It’s like, I’m going to Google it just as you, just as much as you.

sometimes it’s just hard. It’s like, “Man, I don’t have the bandwidth to do this when I also have to do other things”
You know, it’s that extra work that you do to support a community, the calls you get, the students that you’re supporting, the organizations you’re connected with. Sometimes you do have a deeper understanding of these diversity issues, because you have to. But sometimes it’s just hard. It’s like, “Man, I don’t have the bandwidth to do this when I also have to do other things.”

I feel like what I love the most about my faculty is that we all take equal responsibility in having those conversations. So, it doesn’t just feel like it relies on one person. But I’m blessed. My program is diverse. We have two White men, and the rest of the faculty are people of color, women of color.
We very much match our student population demographics. But, yeah, that’s the stuff you don’t get paid for. And that expectation gets you voluntold to be on committees. And I’m just like, “Gosh, man. I’m struggling too, you know?”
LR: I think we’ll stop there Jude. I want to thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and experiences from the trenches of graduate school.
JA: I hope this was meaningful for students or for whoever’s reading it.