Peter Levine on Somatic Experiencing

An Unconscious Image

Victor Yalom: So Peter, you’ve spent most of your life working with trauma and traumatized patients, and have developed an approach called Somatic Experiencing® that focuses on including, and putting emphasis, on the physiological aspects of trauma. You believe that working with the trauma through the body is necessary to any trauma resolution and a required step before addressing emotional and cognitive issues. We’ll get into this in more detail, but let’s first start with: What got you there? How did you get interested in trauma in the first place?
Peter Levine: My career began somewhat accidentally. In the 1960s I started a practice in the fledgling field of mind-body healing. Around that time it was completely in its infancy. I had been developing a protocol to use body awareness as a tool for stress reduction. I would teach people how to relax different parts of their body and they would have a very deep relaxation that was much deeper than I had expected. And so I was referred a patient—I’ll use the name Nancy—by a psychiatrist, and she had been suffering from a host of physical symptoms including migraines, severe PMS, what would now be called fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue, pain in most of her body. And the psychiatrist reasoned that if I could help her with some of my relaxation techniques, it could help with her anxiety or at least with her pain.
VY: Now, were you a psychologist at that point, Peter?
PL: At that time I was finishing a degree in medical biophysics. And again, there was not a field of bodywork at that time, but I had met some influential people including Ida Rolf and Fritz Perls, and I was hanging out at Esalen—I took a leave of absence—and that’s where I really got exposed to these different mind-body approaches.
VY: And this was a heyday where all sorts of things and discoveries were happening?
PL: Crazy stuff. Yeah, exactly. It was both exciting and a chaotic free-for-all in some ways. So anyhow, this psychiatrist sent this woman, Nancy, to see me, and she was extremely anxious. And she was with her husband because she couldn’t go out of the house alone. She had, again what would be called now, severe agoraphobia. So anyhow, she came into my office and I noticed her heart rate was really quite high—it was probably about 90, 100 beats per minute. So I did some work with her breathing and then with the tension in her neck. And her heart rate started to go down. And I thought, “Oh, okay, this is great.” And it went down and then all of a sudden, it shot up to, I don’t know, 140-150 beats per minute. I could see this from her carotid pulse.
VY: Not what you were going after.
PL: Not exactly. I had gone from success to abject failure and, really, fear of putting her into extreme panic attack. So I said something, probably the most stupid thing anybody could say. I said something like, “Nancy, just relax. You need to relax.” And her heart rate started going down. And it went down and down and down. And it went to a very low level, probably in the mid-50s. And she looked at me. She turned white, and she looked at me, and she said, “I’m dying, I’m dying. Doctor, don’t let me die. Help me, help me, help me.” And at that moment of stress, I kind of was prompted by an unconscious image, a vision of a tiger crouching at the other side of the room and getting ready to spring. And I said, “Nancy, Nancy, there’s a tiger, a tiger’s chasing you. Run, climb those rocks, and escape.”
VY: And this was just a spontaneous kind of image that came from your imagination or unconscious?
PL: This was a spontaneous image. My unconscious. Yeah, because I had really, truly no idea what to do. I was in a state of, well, near panic myself. So to my amazement, to both of our amazement, her legs started moving as though she were running. And her whole body started to shake and to tremble. And this occurred in waves. And she went from being very very hot to extremely cold. Her fingers turned almost blue. And the shaking and the trembling and the waves of coldness and heat went on for almost 30-40 minutes, maybe. And after that, her breathing was free and spontaneous. She opened her eyes and she looked at me and she said, “Do you want to know what happened, Doctor? Do you want to know what happened to me?” And I said, “Yes, please.”This was one of the first patients. This was certainly the first one where something like this had happened. I worked with a lot of people in getting them to relax, and there were some kinds of things like that, but never anything nearly as dramatic. So anyhow, she reported how during the session she remembered a long forgotten event: as a four year old child, she was given ether for a tonsillectomy—at that time, ether was routinely used for tonsillectomies—and she remembered feeling suffocated and completely overpowered by the doctors and nurses who were holding her down to put on the ether mask while she was trying to scream and get away. As I discovered later, many people who had anxiety disorders had also had tonsillectomies as children with ether. So anyhow, that was the last panic attack that she had. And many of her symptoms abated. Others disappeared completely. We did a few sessions after that where I was actually able to do different relaxation procedures with different muscles and different parts of her body. So of course I was curious about the image—where did that come from?

Marie-Helene Yalom: The tiger image?

The Polyvagal Theory

Peter Levine: Yes, the tiger image. At that time, I was taking a graduate seminar, and some brief mention was made of a phenomenon called tonic immobility. If animals were physically restrained and frightened, they would go into a profoundly altered state of consciousness where they were frozen and immobilized, unable to move. And it turns out that this is one of the key survival features that animals use to protect themselves from threat—in this case from extreme threat. Actually there are three basic neural energy subsystems. These three systems underpin the overall state of the nervous system as well as the correlative behaviors and emotions, leading to three defensive strategies to threat.
MY: That’s the polyvagal theory developed by Stephen Porges?
PL: Yes. These systems are orchestrated by the primitive structures in our brainstem—the upper part of the brainstem. They’re instinctive and they’re almost reflexive. The tonic immobility is the most primitive system, and it spans probably over 500 million years. It is a combination of freezing and collapsing—the muscles go limp, the person is left without any energy. The next in evolutionary development is the sympathetic nervous system, the fight-or-flight response. And this system evolved from the reptilian period which was about 300 million years ago. And its function is enhanced action, and, as I said, fight-or-flight. Finally the third and most recent system is the social engagement system, and this occurs only in mammals. Its purpose is to drive social engagement—making friends—in order to defuse the aggression or tension.
VY: So this is when we’re feeling threatened or stressed we want to talk to our friends and family?
PL: Yeah, exactly. Or if somebody’s really angry at us, we want to explain what happened so they don’t strike out at us. Obviously most people won’t strike out, but we’re still hardwired for those kinds of expectations.
VY: Most people have a general sense of the fight-or-flight, but would you just say a few words on it?
PL: Basically, in the fight-or-flight response, the objective is to get away from the source of threat. All of our muscles prepare for this escape by increasing their tension level, our heart rate and respiration increase, and our whole basic metabolic system is flooded with adrenaline. Blood is diverted to the muscles, away from the viscera. The goal is to run away, or if we feel that we can’t escape or if we perceive that the individual that’s trying to attack us is less strong than we are, to attack them. Or if we’re cornered by a predator—in other words, if there’s no way to escape—then we’ll fight back. Now, if none of those procedures are effective, and it looks like we’re going to be killed, we go into the shock state, the tonic immobility. Now the key is that when people get into this immobility state, they do it in a state of fear. And as they come out of the immobility state, they also enter a state of fear, and actually a state in which they are prepared for what sometimes is called rage counterattack.
MY: Can you say more about that?
PL: For example, you see a cat chasing a mouse. The cat catches the mouse and has it in its paws, and the mouse goes into this immobility response. And sometimes you’ll actually see the cat bat the mouse around a little bit until it comes out of the immobility, because it wants the chase to go on. Now, what can happen is that the mouse, when it comes out of the immobility state, goes into what is called nondirective flight. It doesn’t even look for where it can run. It just runs as fast as it can in any direction. Sometimes that’s right into the cat. Other times, it will actually attack, in a counterattack of rage. I’ve actually seen a mouse who was captured by a cat come out of the immobility and attack the cat’s nose. The cat was so startled it remained there in that state while the mouse scurried away. When people come out of this immobility response, their potential for rage is so strong and the associated sensations are so intense that they are afraid of their own impulse to strike out and to defend themselves by killing the predator. Again, this all goes back to our animal heritage.So the key I found was in helping people come out of this immobility response without fear. Now, with Nancy, I was lucky. If it were not for that image, I could just as easily have retraumatized her. As a matter of fact, some of the therapies that were being developed around that time frequently retraumatized people. I think particularly of Arthur Janov’s Primal Therapy, where people would be yelling and screaming out, supposedly getting out all of their locked-in emotions, but a lot of times they were actually terrorizing themselves with the rage and then they would go back into a shutdown, and then be encouraged to “relive” another memory, and then this cycle would continue.

MY: It becomes addictive sometimes, right?
PL: That’s correct. It literally becomes addictive. And one of the reasons is that when you do these kinds of relivings, there’s a tremendous release of adrenaline. There’s also a release of endorphins, which is the brain’s internal opiate system. In animals, these endorphins allow the prey to go into a state of shock-analgesia and not feel the pain of being torn apart. When people relive the trauma, they recreate a similar neurochemical system that occurred at the time of the trauma, the release of adrenaline and endorphins. Now, adrenaline is addictive, it is like getting a speed high. And they get addicted not only to the adrenaline but to the endorphins; it’s like having a drug cocktail of amphetamines and morphine. So when I was at Esalen I actually noticed that people would come to these groups, they would yell and scream, tear a pillow apart that was their mother or their father, and they would feel high. They would feel really great. But then when they would come back a few weeks later, they would go through exactly the same thing again. And that’s what gave me a clue to the fact that this might be addictive.

Releasing Trauma from the Body

VY: So getting back to Nancy, from what you observed and what you learned from the animals’ various responses, what was your understanding of what happened with Nancy and what you did that was actually helpful?
PL: What was helpful is that her body learned that in that time of overwhelming threat she could not defend herself. She lost all of her power. Her muscles were all tight. She was struggling to get away—this was the flight response—to get out of that, to get away from those people who were holding her down and to run out of the room and back to her parents. I mean, that’s what her body wanted to do, her body needed to do—to get out of there and get back to where she could be protected. So what happened is all of this activation, this “energy” that was locked into her body when she was trying to escape and then was overwhelmed, was still there in a latent form. When we’re overwhelmed like that, the energy just doesn’t go away—it gets locked very deeply in the body. That’s the key. It gets locked in the muscles.
MY: And that’s the foundation of your understanding of trauma—this locking of energy?
PL: That’s right, exactly. How the energy, how this activation gets locked in the body and in the nervous system.
MY: And so your objective is to help the person release that energy?
PL: Yes, to release that energy, but also to re-channel that energy into an active response, so then the body has a response of power, of its own capacity to regulate, and the person comes out of this shutdown state into a process in which they re-own their own vital energy—we use the term “life energy.” It’s not generally used in psychology but I think it’s a term that is profound in people’s health, that people feel that they have the energy to live their life fully, and that they have the capacity to direct this energy in powerful and productive ways.
VY: Now obviously you’re just giving a snapshot of the case and we can’t capture the depth and the nuances of it. But someone who doesn’t know about this could think it sounds a little simplistic. This woman had a tonsillectomy decades ago, and you’re having this one session with her and somehow you’re freeing up some energy that was trapped back then. How would you respond to that?
PL: Well, it was simplistic, and of course I was to learn that one-time cures were not always the case. However, over the years I started to develop a systematic approach where the person could gradually access these energies and these body sensations—not all at once, but one little bit at a time. It’s a process that I call titration. I borrowed that term from chemistry. The image that I use is that of mixing an acid and a base together. If you put them together, there can be an explosion. But if you take it one drop at a time, there is a little fizzle and eventually the system neutralizes. Not only does it neutralize but after you do this titration a certain number of times, you get an end result of salt and water. So instead of having these toxic substances, you have the basic building blocks of life, I use this analogy to describe one of the techniques I use in my work with trauma patients.
You’re not actually exposing the person to a trauma—you’re restoring the responses that were overwhelmed, which is what led to the trauma in the first place.
VY: And you’re doing it very slowly, one little step at a time.
PL: Very slowly.
VY: Would you say that is the key?
PL: That’s the key. So you get a little bit of discharge, you get a little bit of a person’s body, like their hands and arms, feeling like they want to hold something away from them, that they want to push something away. So they feel that energy, that power into the muscles in their arms. If they want to run they feel the energy, the aliveness in their legs. The ideas are extremely simple, but the execution of them is much more complex. Actually we have a training program and the training program is a three-year program.

Working with an Iraq Vet

VY: I think this is really nicely demonstrated in the video that we’re just releasing at the time of this interview, where you demonstrate five sessions with Ray, who’s an Iraq vet, who was in an IED explosion. And when he first presents, his body is visibly twitching every few seconds, and you came up with an explanation that he’s actually trying to reorient himself to the original trauma, that he was never able to face the trauma.
PL: Yes, well, exactly. This was a young Marine. While he was on patrol two explosive devices blew up right near him and he was thrown into the air, and woke up two weeks later in Landstuhl, at the military hospital in Germany. Afterwards he was diagnosed with traumatic brain injury and PTSD and also Tourette syndrome, and this was, I think, because of this extreme twitching. You saw this kind of twitching, these neurological presentations in the World War I soldiers. Some of them could barely walk, and they were twitching and in near convulsion. And I think these people who are exposed to these bombs actually have similar presentations. But let’s go back to the day when he’s on patrol. The bomb blows up. Now what happens whenever there’s a loud sound is that it startles us, right? And we arrest what we’re doing and we try to localize that sound because that sound could be a threat. That’s something that’s hard-wired in our bodies. These responses were actually discovered by Pavlov in the 1920s. So there’s an explosion and what we do is we turn toward the source of the explosion.
VY: That’s how we know where it’s coming form.
PL: Exactly. And so what we do is we start to turn our eyes, our neck and head, turn towards that source to try to localize it. In Ray’s case, as soon as his eyes and head began to orient, in milliseconds, he was thrown up into the air and this defensive response, this orienting response became completely disorganized and kept repeating itself. It’s what many psychologists see in people who are perseverating. They’ll go over something…
VY: So your understanding of his constant visible twitching which presented in the first few sessions was that he was still trying to orient himself to the trauma. He’d never been able to complete that orienting response.
PL: Exactly. Because as soon as he began to orient, as soon there was that pre-motor impulse and before that orientation could be felt—much less executed—he was thrown into the air, and in the air his whole body was trying to say, “What can I do?” And so all of his muscles contracted together. Again, this is an archaic response that we’ve inherited from monkeys. For example, if a monkey falls out of a tree, its whole body flexes. And it does that to protect the vital organs. So in a situation like this, if we’re thrown into the air, or even with extreme startle, all the muscles in the front part of our body, the abdomen and the leg flexors and so forth, go into this protective response. So that also contributed to Ray’s symptoms, to his chronic pain, because his whole body was locked to protect himself from falling. And of course there were also many emotional issues, such as a tremendous amount of loss and survivor’s guilt—he saw many of his best friends killed—that grafted themselves onto the physical trauma.
VY: So in terms of titration that you were talking about, your goal initially in therapy, in the treatment, is to do what?
PL: The goal is to very gradually help him get in touch with the sensations that precede the twitching and that will eventually enable him to complete the orienting responses that were interrupted. It wouldn’t have worked if I had said: “We’re going to work on controlling the tics.” If you tell somebody with Tourette, for example, to not twitch, they may be able to control it for a while, and they do it generally, because in social situations they don’t want it to happen. But then the more they try to control it the more explosive it becomes. It is similar to glowing embers—if you blow on the embers, it ignites into a flame. So the key is to cool the embers before they ignite into flame. The flame is this convulsive response.This is a concept that exists in migraines or epilepsy. Before a seizure, a person experiences prodromal symptoms. So for example, before they get the migraine attack, they may see flickering lights or they may have a particular smell or a body sensation. And they know when they experience those symptoms that they will go into a seizure or a migraine or even an anxiety attack. I focus on something I call the pre-prodromal, because once the person experiences the prodromal, then they go into the attack, the paroxysm. So if you are able to get them to just feel before that—in the pre-prodomal stage, they can redirect that energy, and as they do so they begin to complete the orienting responses that were overwhelmed by the trauma. And in the video, you see Ray little by little begin to reestablish his orienting responses, and this triggers very profound sensations of cold and heat, coolness and warmth, tingling and relaxation.

MY: And that’s the energy being released.
PL: Yes, that’s the energy being released that’s shifting from one system to another.
VY: And you gradually help him to spread that energy, rather than just being in the neck or head, so he experiences it going through the rest of his body.
PL: Exactly, exactly. At first these sensations are only local, mostly in the head or the neck. Then as we do this repeated times, and you’ll see this is done several times in each of the first four sessions, gradually the convulsive reaction attenuates and then almost disappears. And in its place he feels pleasure in his body. I was able to invite him to Esalen at one of the workshops I give once a year titled “Awakening the Ordinary Miracle of Healing.” By then he had been able to resolve the physiological aspect of the trauma, he was able there to address the emotional aspects of it. Two things happened in that workshop. First of all, he dealt with the different emotions—his loss, his anger, and his guilt that he survived and that many of his comrades did not. But he was also able to reenter and engage with a group of people around feelings of goodness and of social engagement, of hunger for being able to relate to people in a non-aroused….
MY: In a nonviolent way.
PL: In a nonviolent way, exactly. And you see so many vets now—when they come back, they go into maybe not complete convulsions like he did, but into an exaggerated fight-flight-freeze response which can lead to attacks on their children or their spouses. And they do it in an involuntary way, and are helpless to change that. And unfortunately there’s little help available for these soldiers to resolve their trauma reactions and be able to reintegrate….

Emotional Processing with Trauma Survivors

MY: Peter, you talked about how it’s only in session five that Ray started expressing his emotions. You approach trauma in a very different way than most traditional psychotherapists would, where they would focus probably sooner on dealing with emotions.
PL: Yes.
MY: And you have strong feelings about that.
PL: Actually, what you are alluding to is the whole idea of bottom-up processing. So maybe let’s get back to that, okay? In top-down processing, which is normally what we do in psychotherapy, we talk about our problems, our symptoms, or our relationships. And then the therapist often tries to get the client to feel what they’re feeling when they talk about those kinds of things. Or they try to work with them to become more aware of their thoughts so that they can change their thoughts. In this model the language that you’re talking with the client is in the realm of symbols, of thoughts, of perceptions. The language of the emotions is the language of the emotional brain—the limbic system. And in order to change emotions, people have to be able to touch into the emotions, to express the emotions.In the case of trauma patients, we have a person who is locked in the fight-or-flight response and as I explained earlier in the Polyvagal theory, a person who is functioning primarily in the brainstem, and the language of the brainstem is the language of sensations. So if you are trying to help the person work with the core of the trauma response, you have to talk to that level of the nervous system.

MY: So what you’re saying is a person who has been traumatized cannot really process emotions if they are in the early stages after the trauma until they have dealt with their physiological traumatization.
PL: Right, until the person has dealt with and sufficiently resolved the physiological shock, they really can’t deal with the emotions because the emotions actually will throw them further back into the shock, if the emotions occur at all. Many of these people are so shut down that it’s very difficult to get at any emotion. But if some kind of therapy forces them into the emotions, that can have a deleterious effect. That can cause them to further withdraw into the immobility, into the shock reaction. So you have to dissolve the shock first.
VY: What you’re saying, though, flies in the face of most of conventional therapy, which goes straight for the emotions. Do you think that most therapies are actually not helpful, or is something else happening during that time?
PL: Many therapists are doing something different from what they think they’re doing. And if you’re working with emotions in a very titrated way, then you can actually go from the emotions to the sensation, and begin to resolve things at a sensation level. But therapies that really work to provoke emotions or the exposure therapies… I know that they do get some results, but I think that they can easily lead to retraumatization.
VY: How so?
PL: One of the things that Bessel van der Kolk showed when he first started to do trauma research with functional MRIs is that when people are in the trauma state, they actually shut down the frontal parts of their brain and particularly the area on the left cortex called Broca’s area, which is responsible for speech. When the person is in the traumatic state, those brain regions are literally shut down, they’re taken offline. When the therapist encourages the client to talk about their trauma, asking questions such as, “Okay, so this is what happened to you. Now, let’s talk about it,” or, “What are you feeling about that?” The client tries to talk about it. And if they try to talk about it, they become more activated. Their brainstem and limbic system go into a hyperaroused state, which in turns shuts down Broca’s area, so they really can’t express in words what’s going on. They feel more frustrated. Sometimes the therapist is pushing them more and more into the frustration. Eventually the person may have some kind of catharsis, but that kind of catharsis is due frequently to being overloaded and not being able to talk about it, being extremely frustrated. So in a sense, trauma precludes rationality.
MY: So what do you think is the hardest thing for traditional talk therapists to learn when dealing with trauma patients?

Experiencing the Body

PL: I think the most alien is to be able to work with body sensations. And again, because the overwhelm and the fight-or-flight are things that happen in the body, what I would say is the golden route is to be able to help people have experiences in the body that contradict those of the overwhelming helplessness. And my method is not the only way to do that. It’s certainly one of the most significant. But many therapists, for example, will recommend that their clients do things like yoga or martial arts.
MY: Or meditation?
PL: The thing about meditation, though…. With some kinds of trauma, meditation is helpful. But the problem is when people go into their inner landscape and they’re not prepared and they’re not guided, sooner or later they encounter the trauma, and then what do they do? They could be overwhelmed with it, or they find a way to go away from the trauma.
And they go sometimes into something that resembles a bliss state. But it’s really an ungrounded bliss state. I call that the bliss bypass. It’s a way of avoiding the trauma. It was very common in the ‘60s when people were taking all of these drugs, and a lot of these people were traumatized from their childhood. And what they would do is they would go into these kinds of dissociated states of bliss and different hallucinatory imageries, but in a way it was avoiding the trauma. So in a way the trauma became even a greater effect, and then often people would then wind up having bad trips in which they would go into the trauma but without the resources to work them through.
MY: I guess that’s what I find inspiring about your approach. Ultimately you really want to enable the traumatized person to regain their autonomy, not just find palliative methods of dealing with their trauma.
PL: Yes. One thing therapists are really good at, I think, is they’re good at helping people calm. We set up our offices so they’re conducive, so they’re friendly, they’re cheerful, there are things in the room that would evoke interest and curiosity. And many therapists can actually help calm the traumatized person. This is something that’s a necessary first step, but if it’s the only thing that happens, the clients become more and more dependent on the therapist to give them some sense of refuge, some sense of okayness. But when therapists are helping the clients get mastery of their sensations, of their power in their body, than they are truly helping them develop an authentic autonomy. And from the very beginning, the client is beginning to separate.So this is a gradual process, where the client really becomes authentically autonomous, authentically self-empowered. And if we don’t do this, the client tends to become more and more dependent on the therapist, and this is when you see these transferences where all of a sudden the client depends on the therapist for everything. At this point the therapist can go from being the god or the goddess up on this pedestal to being thrown down and the client having rage about the therapist for not helping them enough. So the key out of these conundrums is through self-empowerment, and I know of no more direct and effective way of doing this than through the body.

A Personal Experience of Trauma

MY: You use an accident that happened to you—you were hit by a car—and your own experience of trauma as a way to demonstrate some of the principles of Somatic Experiencing®. You describe how some people were helpful to you and some were not. It seems like a good example to illustrate what to pay attention to when interacting with a traumatized person. Would you say more about that?
PL: Actually I got a good dose of my own medicine. Thankfully. I was walking a crosswalk five or six years ago, and a teenage driver went through the stop sign. I didn’t see her because there was a large truck parked waiting at the stop sign and she didn’t see the stop sign and she was passing the truck. So she hit me at about 25 miles an hour, and I was splatted out on the pavement. And in shock, disoriented, I didn’t know what had happened. And at that moment, or probably shortly thereafter, an off-duty paramedic came and he sat by my side and said, “Don’t move.” Now remember how previously I was talking about Ray, and his orientation to the explosion when he heard the blast. Well, similarly my survival response is to orient towards where that command came from. But then he’s telling me, “Don’t move.”
MY: So it’s a contradiction.
PL: Exactly, it’s a complete contradiction. So I go into a freeze, into a panic. And at that moment, I dissociate from my body—it’s like I’m out of my body and I’m looking down and seeing this man kneeling by my side and seeing me in this frozen state. Of course, somebody called on their cell phone for an ambulance. But then after a little while, he kept asking me questions, and I was able to get enough orientation to say, “Please just give me time, I won’t move my neck,” and I didn’t want to answer questions about what my name was, where I was going, what the day was. I needed to collect myself, and all of those things were making things much worse. So I was able to set enough of a boundary to have him back off. Then miraculously, serendipitously, a woman came, much calmer, sat by my side, and she said, “I’m a doctor. I’m a pediatrician. Can I do anything?” And I said, “Please just sit here by my side.” And she touched my hand with her hand, and we folded our hands together.
VY: She worked with kids so she probably knew how to calm children down.
PL: Exactly. And that’s what we need when we’re traumatized. We need that kind of direct contact where we know somebody is protecting us. Because when we’re in trauma, we go back to a pretty infantile state of feeling completely unprotected. So it was really, really important, and I know I couldn’t have done what I did without her being there. I could have done some of it, but her presence really was very important. And then what I was able to do was recollect myself. I was actually able to experience being hit by the car, being thrown in the air, how my arms and hands went out to protect myself first from the window of the car, and then protect my head from getting smashed on the road.
MY: When you say experience, do you mean mentally, or do you mean literally by moving your arms?
PL: I literally experienced my arms as though they were moving. I mean, you could barely see it. These are what are called micro-movements. But as I felt that, I felt that instead of my body becoming limp, I started to get more strength in my body. As I started to get more strength in my body, my physiological systems started normalizing. When the guy first took my blood pressure it was about 170, and my heart rate was 100 beats per minute. When I was in the ambulance, by re-experiencing those movements and letting my body shake and tremble and feel the different emotions—one was the rage at this woman, the desire to kill this girl—I was again able to ground these feelings in my body. That was the key. I could ground them in my body. And by doing this, my heart rate and blood pressure went to a normal level when I was in the ambulance—it dropped to 120/72.
MY: And you said to the paramedic “Thank God, I won’t be getting PTSD.”
PL: There was actually some research done in Israel with people who went into the emergency room. Of course, everybody’s heart rate and blood pressure is recorded. And people who had a normal heart rate and blood pressure when they left had a very low likelihood of developing PTSD. Those who left with a high heart rate and blood pressure were very likely to develop PTSD.
MY: So what caused some of them to leave with a lower heart rate versus high?
PL: Well, that’s hard to know, and unfortunately this wasn’t studied. It could have been that somebody there actually helped them calm down, saying things like, “It’s okay, I’m here to help you, we’re going to take care of you, we’re going to help you.” I mean, I don’t know that. That’s a guess. These people may have been more resilient; the other people may have had more trauma. These variables weren’t controlled for. But the basic idea is that if we’re able to reset our physiological system, able to reset our nervous system, then we don’t develop the symptoms of trauma. That’s a little bit of oversimplification, because some people, instead of going into the sympathetic response, go into the shutdown state more directly. That’s a little bit more complicated. But in my case, by being able to reestablish that my body knew what to do—to protect itself—I&allowed my body to come back into present time, to re-orient and to get through this unscarred. And I’m sure if I hadn’t been able to do that, I would have been highly traumatized from that event. I have no question about that.
VY: You mention in the ambulance trembling and shaking. What’s the significance of that?
PL: That was similar to what I described with Nancy, my first client. The shaking and trembling has to do with the resetting of the autonomic nervous system. I was so curious about this that I interviewed a number of people who work with capturing animals and releasing them into the wild. And they described to me very much the kinds of shaking and trembling that I see with my clients and that happened to me. A number of these folks said that they knew that if the animals didn’t go through this kind of shaking and trembling when they were captured and put in cages, they were less likely to survive when released into the wild. So it appears to be a way in which the physiological autonomic nervous system resets itself. Very often this shaking and trembling can be so minute that you barely perceive it from the outside. And the client or the person experiencing it, experiences it in a very subtle, nonthreatening way. As a matter of fact, after a short period of time, they often experience it as being pleasurable. Exactly what it is, we don’t know, but again, I’ve talked to Stephen Porges, who is probably the preeminent psychophysiologist working with these kinds of nervous system states, and it does appear that this occurs as the autonomic nervous system shifts, particularly out of the shutdown states into the mobilization states and then into the social engagement states. So it’s something that goes on as the nervous system comes out of shock.

PTSD & Medication

MY: Peter, you mentioned PTSD earlier. You’ve worked with numerous clients who had PTSD. Many of them heavily medicated. Has there been any research done about the impact of somatic therapies versus medication, and what is your experience of the effect of medication in cases of PTSD?
PL: Well, first of all, I’m not against medication.
MY: Sure. And actually, Ray is taking quite a lot.
PL: He was. But he felt like he was just completely blotted out. He was put on an antipsychotic medication and antidepressant medication. Medications that help stabilize clients enough so that you can begin to access and work with them can be important. For example, the SSRIs are sometimes helpful in that regard. However, with many of these people, most of the SSRIs are so activating that it actually makes things worse. But if it works, if it helps a person even a small percentage, that can be of real value.Benzodiazepines, which are often prescribed, in my experience, interfere with the healing process. Some psychiatrists have prescribed very small doses of the atypical antipsychotic Seroquel to help PTSD people sleep. And that seems to be helpful, —because if the person can get some restorative sleep, then they can begin to process the trauma. But just drugs by themselves—the person will very often have to take the drug basically forever. There’s a saying: meds without skills don’t do the trick. So the key is for the person to be self-regulating.

Comparison to EMDR

VY: How would you compare Somatic Experiencing® from EMDR?
PL: Well, EMDR basically works with one technique. And actually, many of the people who have studied EMDR have trained with us, and vice versa as well. The key here, and nowadays I think EMDR is doing this more, is to reference things as sensations in the body. Again, I think without the body things are limited. It’s really, really key to work with the body, or to reference in the body. I do some work with the eyes, but I do it in a different way from the EMDR movement—it’s actually quite different. And EMDR has had research, and they have often had good results. We haven’t had the same kind of extensive research that EMDR has. My approach is a much older approach—I developed that in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s—but we haven’t had the extensive research.
VY: We’ve covered a wide span of your fascinating career. What’s exciting you now? What are you working on now?

Current Work

PL: I just completed two books on preventing trauma in kids—one for therapists and medical workers and teachers, and the other for parents. The one for parents is called Trauma-Proofing Your Kids: A Parents’ Guide to Instilling Confidence, Joy, and Resilience. And the book for therapists, teachers and medical people is called Trauma Through a Child’s Eyes. And then I am just in the process of completing my main work, really. It will be released in September. It’s called In an Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness. So those are my big projects right now, and I’m actually kind of under piles of chapters right now doing the final completion on that book.
MY: Do you still have time for patients?
PL: Not really. Most of my time is with teaching. I do see people… Occasionally people will come from out of town or out of the country and then I work with them for a few days, I do intensive work with them. But I don’t have any kind of a regular practice anymore.
MY: I have one more question for you, Peter. You were telling us before this interview that you are coming back from Esalen where you were teaching a group of therapists who were primarily talk therapists with little somatic therapy experience. And you said they were like kids. What was so exciting for them?
PL: Actually this is a class I teach with Bessel van der Kolk, and Bessel is one of the leading researchers in the field of trauma research. He’s done some of the main core studies in the neuroscience of trauma. He and I teach a workshop together every year. I think we’ve done it for ten years. In the group we had this time, there were about 60 to 65 people, and almost all of them were talk therapists of one kind or another. And it was really tremendously exciting and gratifying for both of us, for Bessel and me, and also of course for the students, for them to realize, “Oh my gosh, there’s a whole other universe beyond just using talk.” And I think we also gave them some simple tools that they could begin to incorporate into their conventional psychotherapy practice. And that’s another thing that we’re doing with my institute— programs for different kinds therapists where they don’t have to have full training for working with trauma, but they begin to get some simple tools that they can incorporate into whatever kind of therapy they do, whether it’s cognitive therapy, psychodynamic therapy…
MY: You think it works with most therapies?
PL: Yes. There’s no therapy that can’t be made better by referencing the body. Actually Eugene Gendlin, who coined the term “the felt sense” in his seminal book, Focusing, did his PhD thesis on what therapies worked best. And he found that there was very little correlation between whether a patient improved and what kind of therapy he had. So he said, “Well, maybe it’s the experience of the therapist.” Well, there was a small correlation. “Well, maybe it’s the relationship between the therapist and the client.” And again, there was a small correlation, but really nothing that explained why some clients really got well in therapy and others didn’t. And what he discovered was that the single variable that was the most robust was whether clients were able to reference different changes, different experiences they had in their bodies. So any kind of tools that therapists have to be able to help clients reference their body, and particularly to find the ways that their body experiences power and mastery, are going to dramatically inform the type of therapy they’re doing.

VY: Well, I understand that talk alone cannot heal all, but certainly our talk has been tremendously informative to us and hopefully to those who have a chance to read this. So thank you very much for taking the time to explain this all to us.
PL: Gladly. I hope it was of value.

Hanna Levenson on Time Limited Dynamic Psychotherapy

The Interview

Randall C. Wyatt: Good morning Hanna, nice to have with you with us. Did I pronounce it right?
Hanna Levenson: Either way. My real first name is Hanna-Mae. It’s a hyphenated first name. Hardly anyone knows that.
RW: I like that name, now we all know it. Let’s get right to the work you are most known for, Time Limited Dynamic Psychotherapy, otherwise known as TLDP. Usually when people think of psychodynamic psychotherapy, they think long term, psychoanalysis, or at least that the therapist wants it to be long-term. So it almost seems like an error, a typo or something.
HL: Yes, people do sometimes have trouble putting those two together, although Freud certainly did very, very brief therapies when he first started, and many were quite effective. His length of the therapy elongated as the theoretical parameters became more and more encumbered. So, it doesn’t have to be an oxymoron.
RW: Right. How did you first discover that it wasn’t an oxymoron, Time Limited Dynamic Therapy?
HL: My original entrance into the field is kind of indirect. I was originally trained as an experimental psychologist with emphasis on social psychology and personality theory. And then later on, as my interests and responsibilities grew more and more clinical, I, what they called, retreaded – lovely term – I retreaded into clinical psychology. So I didn’t become steeped in the tradition of long-term analytic therapy. I was used to working with groups, with individuals in a much more pragmatic way, more from a research standpoint than from an academic standpoint. But the whole arena of psychodynamics fascinated me. The emphasis on the unconscious, on conflict, and on transference and countertransference. So it just seemed natural to take that and adapt it to my understanding of social contexts. Plus my own style, I think, is more of a pragmatic, impatient, let’s-get-to-it style so that led me to the brief part.
RW: Impatient? What do you mean, impatient?
HL: It can cut both ways, because I often get feedback that I’m very, very patient in the clinical work, or when I’m teaching, but I’m impatient in that I’m really looking to make every session count. How can I get the most mileage, whether I’m teaching or doing clinical work? How can I help someone get from A to B in an efficient and yet as respectful way as possible? So I like seeing results, but I’m also fascinated with the process, so when I seek results I don’t necessarily mean just focusing on the end point. In those micro-interactions, can I see that the work has deepened? Can I see that the work is furthering?
RW: Well, impatience is a word that generally isn’t used in therapeutic lingo, not that I’m against it, since sometimes patience has its limitations as well. But I imagine you’re using impatience in the sense that it’s a good thing.
HL: Absolutely. I mean, people come in and they’re suffering; that’s the major reason people come in to therapy. They’re suffering, they’re in pain. And how can we be of help to them as soon as possible? Yet also having respect, not just for symptom relief, but for the bigger picture.
RW: What’s the bigger picture to you?
HL: The bigger picture to me includes what is the context in which the person lives? The social milieu? What is their personal background? What are the stressors that they’re dealing with? So, all of that.
Victor Yalom: You focus a lot on their long-term interactional or interpersonal patterns.
Hanna Levenson: Right. What is there about those that might cause someone to come in with symptoms of depression, anxiety or emptiness?

An Integrationist Point of View

VY: So it seems like you try to do two things. You’re trying to cover both bases – you’re trying to work with symptom relief, which there’s a lot of emphasis on in cognitive therapy. But you also try to do some structural personality changes.
HL: Right, and I also should say that originally I was very enamored of cognitive-behavioral techniques, as well as systems theory, which I come by legitimately with my interest in social psychology. So I don’t see these all at variance with one another. It somewhat puzzles me, to tell you the truth, that so many of my colleagues identify with a kind of strict orientation. So there’s the cognitive behaviorists, and then there’s the psychoanalysts, the humanists, and people who are interested in systems. And for me it all kind of really flows together, that these are all valuable orientations, ways of looking at the person, and all orientations are trying to be of help.And so it seems natural for me to look at schema theory. It makes a lot of sense when you’re talking about someone’s pervasive dysfunctional style. It certainly makes sense to look at conflict and unconscious processes. It certainly makes sense to look at the system which might maintain that dysfunctional way of being. So it all just makes sense to hold it together in a more integrationist point of view.

RW: I certainly know what you mean, that a lot of people identify very closely with their own church be it CBT or psychoanalysis, or existential. Well, everybody has a favorite, but do you sense that they aren’t open to other theories, or they’re only open to one?
HL: I have a colleague who very much identifies as a cognitive therapist, but I tease her that she’s a psychodynamic therapist in cognitive clothing. Let me back up. If you open up the door of the experienced therapist and listen in, it’s often very hard to actually discern their orientation. Because I think we all get to be rather flexible and pragmatic and tuned in to what the client needs, with more and more experience. So I think it’s more the neophyte therapist that kind of latches onto a more rigid adherence to a theoretical orientation, and appropriately so, developmentally. Don’t get me wrong. I think that’s an important way of learning – to really steep oneself in one approach, and really push the limits of that approach.

The Essence of Time Limited Dynamic Psychotherapy

VY: Before we start comparing your approach to other approaches, what is the essence of Time Limited Dynamic Psychotherapy?
HL: The way I practice it, I really see it basically as psychodynamic in orientation, which is to say, looking at things like transference, countertransference, conflict, processes that are out of awareness, and combining that with aspects of cognitive and systems orientations. I don’t view people as being fixated in some early intrapsychic stage which is unchangeable. The person may develop a style, a way of being early in life, but that’s always open to change, depending upon other people, other social environments, other trauma that they might come in contact with, or other healing environments, and in my case, psychotherapy. I’m also very interested in the affective component of how someone puts their world together, and very much from attachment theory. So it all just makes sense that it hangs together for me.
RW: What do you take from attachment theory?
HL: I take from attachment theory that basically what drives human beings is not sexual and aggressive impulses, nor how to construe the environment in a more cognitive way, but rather the need to attach to other human beings, the need to be accepted, the need to feel close, and especially the need to feel secure. But that is inborn, and we all seek that. It’s just that things might go awry in that process.
RW: So how does this need for relationships play out in therapy, then, for you?
HL: Well, the person enters therapy and has a way of interacting with me, as well as what they tell me about their past way of interacting with others. I try, from those two sources of information, to formulate what have been some difficulties with attachment in the past, what kinds of security operations might the person need to have developed in order to stay as much connected as possible, and what might be necessary experientially and cognitively that would help them shift from maybe this lifelong dysfunctional pattern in life.
RW: Can you give an example of that?
HL: Let’s say there is a boy who was raised by very authoritarian, dogmatic, punitive, harsh parents. And so he develops a style, a way of being that is subservient, anxiety-ridden, placating. It makes sense given the pushes and pulls from his parents. It might be the only way for him to stay safe in that family, since at a very young age he’s totally dependent on them. He needs to come up with some kind of compromise – compromise on maybe his true emotional feelings, so that the more angry feelings, the more assertive feelings get suppressed. So he goes through his childhood in that way, and then in adulthood, since he’s now got a well-ingrained style and pattern, he continues to manifest this anxiety-ridden, placating way of presenting himself to others, and may even, unconsciously, seek out people who are more punitive, arbitrary, superior — not because he’s masochistic, but because it’s what’s comfortable. It’s what he knows. So then he enters the therapy room, again being this placating, subservient, anxiety-ridden man.
VY: So what do you do about that, and how do you use the therapeutic relationship? How do you address these issues?
HL: In the sessions, I, the therapist, might find myself becoming more the expert than usual. I might find myself becoming more reassuring, maybe more advice-giving. Already I am adopting a style that would be the reciprocal, the complement, of this patient’s style. So, I not only observe his style and way of being and formulate according to that, but I’m also very cognizant of my own reactions to him, what I call interactive countertransference. And then by being aware of seeing how his behavior and interactions affect my own interactive countertransference, I think about what would need to shift in the here-and-now, in the therapy room, that could give him a new experience of himself, that could give him, perhaps, in this case more a sense of being assertive, more a sense of being angry even, and certainly more a sense of me as the therapist as not having all the answers, of not thinking less of him, of not shaming him.
VY: How am I going to do this with a client?
HL: So that’s one thing. This is keeping me on my toes. Secondly, I would want him to have some insight into what’s going on. I want him to have a kind of cognitive understanding—
VY: From the experience and the insight or understanding?
HL: Exactly, both of those. And that makes my approach somewhat different than the traditional psychodynamic approach that is more insight-oriented. You know, the belief that insight will set you free. Well, we know now that insight unfortunately doesn’t set us free. I think it helps a lot, and it’s very interesting, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we’re going to be less depressed and less anxious, and so forth. So I want to go an experiential route, because nothing succeeds like having a new experience of something. And the truth be known, these are two sides of the same coin. It would be very hard to have a true new experience without some understanding and very hard to have a true insight without having an affective component.
VY: I always refer to a quote by Frieda Fromm-Reichman that patients need an experience, not an explanation.
HL: Right. Right, exactly. I’m very fond of that quote. I’m fond of a quote from Hans Strupp, “The supply of interpretations far exceeds the demand.” Speaking of Hans Strupp, it’s very sad, he died last week. A real pioneer in our field. Eminent researcher, theoretician, but also just a mensch. Just a very decent human being. I was very saddened to hear it, he had such an impact on my work.
RW: You studied with Strupp?
HL: I didn’t study with him per se. He was doing his NIMH study in the mid 1980s, and I had read a draft of his book, which came out later in 1985, Psychotherapy in a New Key. Wonderful book. And so I had the chutzpah at the time to just invite myself to Nashville and say, “I think I’m doing something similar to what you’re doing. Can I come and take a look?” And at that point no one had done that, so they were a bit intrigued and very open. And I went, and had the chance to sit in on all of their training groups that were going on, and it was the beginning of a wonderful collegial relationship. And then we ended up publishing some papers together and some chapters together, and so we had a 20-year relationship.
RW: Do you see your work as similar to Strupp’s and his colleague’s work, or different?
HL: Yes, it’s similar in that the way I formulate is very much an adaptation of their way, really looking at what the interpersonal story is that the person is telling and the way he or she acts in the world. Where I differ is what I mentioned previously, is that they were emphasizing that if you have a good enough relationship, a good enough alliance, then go for the insight, go for the understanding. And I’m saying yes, a good enough relationship is of course critical no matter what kind of therapy you’re doing, but above and beyond that, I think you can be more focused in the experiential learning part. I don’t think it’s one size fits all. I think we can really hone in and be much more specific, kind of like an experiential version of insight. Something very unique to the individual.
VY: This might be a good segue back to the case you were presenting on, how you would do something experientially to address the interpersonal problems and patterns.
HL: Right, and in fact, Victor, you just nicely demonstrated one of the ways I do it, which is to maintain a focus. You got us back on the focus where we had left off, after a little side trip, and by your saying that, you bring me back to where we left off. This focusing is an extremely important factor in how most brief therapists work; bringing the person back to a central theme. And so that’s one of the ways I would do it in treating this anxiety-ridden man, for example.One way I would keep a focus is to look for themes. What am I hearing about the redundancies in the way he acts in the world: what are his thoughts, his feelings, his wishes, his behaviors, chiefly of an interpersonal sort, since this is an interpersonal model. Second, what are his expectations about how others will behave? Third, what is the behavior of others? Of course, as seen though the eyes of a patient, we don’t have the others there, except for the therapist. How do they respond? And then fourth, how does that leave the person feeling about themselves? What is that person’s introject? How do they treat themselves? And then that, in turn, causes them to act, think, feel, etc, so we really have described a story about the person interpersonally.

RW: Where does the cyclical part come into play?
HL: I act, think, feel in a certain way and expect other people will treat me in such and such a way. In fact, they treat me in this way, and all of this leaves me feeling X about myself, which causes me to act, feel, think, and then what we have is a cyclical maladaptive pattern.It’s cyclical; it feeds on itself. It’s maladaptive because it doesn’t work well for the person, and it’s a pattern because it occurs over time, over place, over people. So that’s what I’d be trying to do, from an insight-oriented place, help this client see this pattern. At the same time, I will be experientially working on reinforcing and highlighting those places where he is behaving differently, where he is moving out of this rut, and I’d be very mindful of myself and my own reactions, to see if I end up reenacting something dysfunctional with him, or can I step back and help provide him with some new experiential learning?

Working Psychodynamically in the Here-and-Now

VY: One thing I recall from the video that you made, Time Limited Dynamic Psychotherapy was that you actually articulate, put into words, your awareness about your own reactions. And I think that’s different, at least, from people’s stereotype of how more psychodynamic or analytic therapists use countertransference. That you really engage in the here-and-now with the patient, rather than kind of making a transference or countertransference interpretation that is more distant or in the third person, or leaves the therapist out of the equation.
HL: Right, for example, I might say to a patient, “You know, I notice I’m telling you a lot of what to do, and I seem overly sure of myself compared to how I usually am. I’m wondering what might be going on.” And in doing that, I not only allow us to take a look at the here-and-now situation between the patient and myself, but I’m also saying, “I’m contributing to this dynamic between us.”So this is perhaps another, different point of view from the caricature of the analyst, which is that I’m not neutral. I’m not this benign, neutral, mirror representation. I am someone who gets hooked into acting and reacting to the pushes and pulls of the client.

VY: Well, I think it’s a really key point, because I think some of the modern dynamic people, the intersubjective folks, certainly the Gestalt and the existential and humanistic therapists, have talked for years about working in the here-and-now in the relationship. And I think one of the things therapists have the hardest time is really learning how to do that. Do you agree with that?
HL: Yes. I think somewhere students learned either at their parents’ knee or from their supervisors or teachers, if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all. And of course one always has to be tactful, in therapy as well as in life, because you want to be heard. But we are really depriving our clients of such critical, important information if we don’t share: “Well, this is what I’m struggling with as I interact with you.” And clients are often very grateful for that feedback given all the usual caveats about the timing of it and the nature of the alliance, and all those things we need to be mindful of. But yes, I find it’s hard for beginning students to do that, and sometimes it’s hard for advanced therapists to do that, because what it does mean is you enter the fray.You have to get down into the trenches with the client. You can’t stay up here in a lofty position, and it’s dirtier down there. It’s messier down there, and you don’t know exactly what’s going to happen down there.

VY: And you have to be more vulnerable as a therapist.
HL: Absolutely.
RW: So during the session as a therapist, you’re feeling more vulnerable. In what ways does that serve or not serve the therapy.
HL: Yes, in a healthy, open way. I don’t mean vulnerable in like, “Oh my goodness, I need to become protective. I need to erect a wall because I’m going to be hurt.” That kind of vulnerability would not be helpful, and in fact sometimes I think the therapist seeks the expert position from on high because the therapist does feel too vulnerable. And then you have a defensive or what I call a security operation that sets in, that actually promotes keeping that distance. Rather, I am speaking of an open vulnerability. It’s a trust in the process – let’s put it that way. It’s a trust in the process.
RW: I’m thinking of the intersubjective wing of psychoanalysis and the well-known and prolific analyst Roy Schafer who talked about changing how we therapists speak about ourselves and our clients. Certainly there’s this line of thinking going on in a lot of existential-humanistic, and definitely psychoanalysis, as well. Can you give an example of any time recently where you’ve felt something in the room and you’ve shared it with a client, and it was either negative or difficult to say?
HL: Yes. There are many. Let’s see. A woman I saw, who was rather egocentric, and if one were to diagnose her, they would probably say that she has a narcissistic style.
Early on in our work she found that most everything I said was ineffective to her and sadly lacking. She said my comments were not deep enough, not on point, not psychoanalytic enough. This was a woman who had been in analysis.
VY: She was critical of you?
HL: Yes, she was quite critical of my interventions and of me; she wouldn’t broach it directly, but indirectly with side snide comments and a heavy hand. But of course this was one of the reasons that she had come into therapy. She was having significant difficulties with her daughters and her husband. One of her agendas in coming to therapy was to really shape up her daughters and her husband.But as I was feeling this barrage from her, I could feel myself moving further and further back in my chair and becoming more and more unable to say anything. Certainly I was trying to get a good alliance with her, but it was becoming increasingly difficult.

So I finally said to her, “You know, you’re a force to be reckoned with, aren’t you?” And it kind of startled her. She said, “What do you mean?” And I described my reaction and that I was very aware that I was feeling very ineffective and not competent. Well, this came as a complete surprise to her. She had no intention of wanting to do that, and it was very useful information and something we referred back to time and time again in our work.

Those moments become earmarked, which allows me to say another aside, that I’ve often found that being this open about my countertransferential reactions, can actually build an alliance. It isn’t like you have to wait to have a good alliance before you could say something like this, but like with this woman, you need to find a way to bring yourself back into the room, find a way to bring yourself back into relationship with the person.

VY: It’s hard to genuinely engage her if you’re feeling like you have to stifle all these negative feelings you’re having.
HL: Absolutely.

Becoming Aware of and Using Countertransference

VY: Given that you agree that this is a hard skill for therapists to learn, other than having personal supervision with you, for example, what are some ways that you find that are helpful for therapists to learn how to do this? Because it’s very different than what therapists usually learn in grad school or most post-graduate education.
HL: That’s a great question, Victor. I find that if you can record, preferably videotape, but at least audio-record your work, it’s enormously helpful. When we’re in the therapy room, especially for beginning therapists, it is so difficult to keep track of all that is happening: one’s own feelings, what’s going on in the transference, what’s going on affectively with the client, nonverbal information, etc. So being able to listen to an audiotape after a session, or even better yet watch a videotape of what goes on while the therapist or trainee as observer is in a different emotional state, really allows therapists to see all kinds of things.
VY: And what do you listen for, or watch for?
HL: The therapist’s nonverbal behavior. I might wonder: What am I doing? Why am I doing that, rubbing my hands a lot? What’s going on there? I’m having trouble looking at the client. What’s going on there? What’s that tone in my voice? I sound tremulous. I sound angry.
RW: It sounds like the first step is to be more aware of what kind of countertransference reactions are getting engendered. So then the second step is how to find a way to put those feelings into words in a way that’s going to be helpful.
HL: Yes, and also acknowledging that there is a reality to the client’s perception. That’s another thing. So that when the client says, “Well, am I boring you?” Rather than saying “Well, what makes you say that?” And then they’ll say, “Well, you’re yawning and your eyes are at half-mast.” Then what do you say? “Do other people always look bored to you?” Do you take it out of the room? Do you take it to a safe place distant from you, or do you say something like, “You know, I think you’re right. I wasn’t aware of it but I think I was drifting off. Can we go back and take a look at what was just going on between the two of us? When did you notice that I was not as present? When did you notice that I was looking bored?” It is giving some validity, as an interpersonal slice of life, to the client’s perceptions. It isn’t all projection.
RW: That’s an amazing, amazing concept in itself, which I say with some irony, that the therapist will acknowledge that the client’s perceptions are accurate or have some validity, and aren’t just something to be questioned and wondered about.
VY: In fact, to deny what actually is, is anti-therapeutic in a sense. If they are having an accurate perception and you’re denying it, well, that’s no help to them.
HL: Right, and you said, “If they’re having an accurate perception.” From an interpersonal therapist’s point of view, you would not even wonder right there about the accuracy.
RW: There’s no one objective reality. There are two interpersonal realities.
HL: Right, because if I say they’re having an accurate perception, that means that I have to be all-knowing. I have to know all of my unconscious processes, I have to be aware of everything, and I can determine as the therapist on high what is accurate and what isn’t. So my assumption is that maybe it doesn’t fit for where you are. I know sometimes when I’m listening very intently, I can look angry. I might furrow my brow, and so I know enough about myself that when I’m really looking and listening intently, it can come across as angry.So when the person says, “Gee, you look angry with me,” I may know there’s something being misperceived. But nonetheless, I take what they’re saying as important, and we can explore that and we can process that, and maybe at some point it gets to my actually sharing with them, “I’m really listening very intently, but I know I can come across as angry, and what’s that like for you?” And I can also say to them, “You know, I’m not feeling angry at all, but I really appreciate your courage, your willingness to take the chance of letting me know that.”

What to Self Disclose and what to Hold Back

RW: Let’s go to another level of self-disclosure. How do you decide what to disclose to the client or to keep hidden? Obviously you don’t say every single thing on your mind. You don’t do that with anybody.
HL: Right.
RW: What guides you in disclosing to the client about your own process?
HL: Excellent question. What guides me is the formulation. In fact, the formulation guides me in everything. The formulation leads to my goal, the goals lead me to my interventions. So that in getting that formulation, going back to that cyclical maladaptive pattern, if I have an idea about what is the style, what the person invites in others, what is their own self-concept, etc., then that is going to allow me to devise some experiential and insight oriented goals, and then that is what’s going to guide me.So for example, with the person who comes in who’s placating and subservient, I’ll be listening for any opportunity where he might say something assertively. Anything where he might say, “I want,” especially if it might seem to contradict something I’m saying, for example. So I would want to highlight those times, capture those times, elongate those times, dwell on those times. However, let’s say there’s someone who comes in who is quite hostile, that that’s part of their cyclical maladaptive pattern, and in reciprocation they invite hostility or subservience, and that’s what gets them into difficulty. Then if they keep challenging me, then that might not be something that I’d want to reinforce, that I might want to focus on.

VY: You might instead reinforce the time when they’re more vulnerable or softer.
HL: Exactly, exactly. So what happens in a session is really driven from how I am formulating the case, and what are my goals. So I really need to keep those at the forefront. This also gives me the opportunity to maybe make a little segue in this interview and say that I use this approach even when I’m doing long-term therapy, and I enjoy doing very long-term therapy, as well as briefer therapies. But I do tend to keep a more focused approach when I’m aware of the formulation and my goals.
RW: And so what’s the difference? The way you practice sounds not so different than the way I practice, using insight, experience, here-and-now work, transference, and countertransference. What makes it short term? What makes it time-limited or long?
HL: In general, and a gross overstatement, I try and make every session count, because I don’t know how long I’m going to see the person; that’s up to the client, for the most part. So we know that 80 to 90 percent of clients drop out before the 12th session, whether or not they’re in managed care. People stop when they have gotten enough out of therapy, or it’s reached that kind of threshold between cost-benefit, it wasn’t what they had in mind, they’re not being helped and so forth.So people drop out of therapy and therapists frame it as a premature termination, which again is a little presumptuous. I’m trying to make every session count, not knowing if I’ll see them for five sessions or five years, at the outset. Certainly as time goes on, you have a better idea if you’ll be seeing them longer term or not. So for me there isn’t so much of a clear dividing line between brief and long term therapies.

VY: How do you decide? Do you decide in advance, this is going to be a time-limited therapy?
HL: For some modes of brief therapy, Mann’s model for example, the time-limited nature of the therapy is very critical. In TLDP, it’s not critical. In fact, I think if Hans Strupp and Jeffrey Binder had a chance to rename their approach, it would be something more like “Focused Dynamic Therapy.” And take the “time-limit” out of it, because it doesn’t so much weigh on the brevity of time. Really what heats up the session is the focus on what’s happening in the here-and-now, and being very aware of that in the here-and-now.To get to your question, Victor, about do I decide ahead of time or do I decide as the person comes in, it’s a mutual decision. Again, it’s not a unilateral decision. So what is the person interested in? Where do they see they want to go? I do believe in having windows of opportunity where we might stop the ongoing process of the work and reflect, where are we? Are we at an ending place? Or a client might say, “Gee, I think I’m at a place where I can end.” Or we might just say, “So where are we and what have we gotten out of our work?” There should be windows of opportunity all along the way to reevaluate. It helps keep everyone on the same page, and I think also helps us put our clients’ needs first.

VY: So we’re not just assuming longer is better.
HL: Definitely not assuming longer is better. As my colleague Michael Hoyt has said, “Better is better.”
RW: Better is better, Hoyt can make that a book title.
HL: I think he has. Yes, better is better, not longer is better!

Is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy the Gold Standard?

VY: In the media, almost every time there’s an article now – somehow brief and cognitive therapy especially, seem to take all the limelight. It’s referred to repeatedly as the gold standard, proven, that it’s empirically validated. Psychoanalysis is often set up as the straw man, where Woody Allen goes forever and never gets better. You’ve been involved in lots of research, and my sense is that good therapy is always good therapy, regardless of these orientation differences. Do you agree that the research shows that cognitive therapy is so superior, and if not, why is it getting all the attention?
HL: Well, it certainly is getting a lot of attention. I do keep up on this literature and I write an updated review chapter on cognitive therapy about every ten years for the Review of General Psychiatry. One of the reasons that the research is coming out favoring cognitive therapy has a lot to do with NIMH funding. NIMH uses the medical model and experimental design as the gold standard and cognitive therapy certainly lends itself to discreet interventions that are made in experimental control designs. In addition, the research design often involves having patients who do not suffer from any other condition other than one diagnosis. So no complex cases, you must find subjects who have an anxiety disorder but who are not addicted to substances, who are depressed but don’t have marital difficulties, who do not have a medical problem, and so on.
VY: Pretty hard to find.
HL: Yeah, pretty hard to find, but you can find them for research purposes. So while the studies are easier to do, easier to analyze, and the results can be shown in a clear-cut way, the transition for the practicing therapist dealing with the populations in the real world, is problematic and might not hold much water. The studies do not generalize or apply readily to real clinical populations. However, I also want to say it could certainly lead to wondering about certain interventions that could be incorporated into messy or real clinical situations.I should note that I’m very impressed by the research of Louis Castonguay and Marv Goldfried who have done a beautiful job of really looking at a more sophisticated version of cognitive therapy which takes into account factors such as the therapeutic relationship, the alliance. Safran’s book on interpersonal processes and cognitive therapy is also one of my favorites.

RW: It is my read that APA’s position on evidence based interventions, in particular, Norcross’ work, has room for the therapeutic alliance and relationship as part of these protocols and manuals in addition to the more CBT technique like approaches.
HL: Unfortunately, the evidence based focus on the therapeutic relationship had to come up as a reaction to much pressure — it would have been nice if we could have been more proactive and been out in front of the curve.
VY: Back to the protocols, I’m interested. From your experience in the CBT world, do CBT therapists follow the protocol, perhaps, that’s not “better” to them as well.
HL: Right, that would not be the best approach for their clients. You have to do an idiosyncratic formulation. You have to know when, for this particular individual who’s sitting across from you, when to follow the protocol and when not to, or when the protocol must be adjusted. Jackie Persons’ work in this area is superb.
VY: So I take it you’re not a big fan of manualized treatment?
HL: I’m not a big fan of rote manualized treatments. I think manualized treatments can be wonderful to teach from but not with the point of view of follow it exactly, do this, then this, then this – kind of in a robotic fashion.
VY: Unless you’re treating robots. Even in these severe research conditions you describe, is it in fact the case that cognitive behavioral approaches show superior results to just an experienced, integrated eclectic clinician?
HL: Depends on the study. Some of them show clear-cut advantage. For others the results are more complex. I’m also very mindful as a researcher that who conducts the outcome research, is very critical – that one of the best predictors of the outcome of the study is the theoretical allegiance of the investigator.
VY: So when you read these same articles that I do in Newsweek and the popular media referring to CBT as the gold standard in therapy, what’s your reaction to that?
HL: Take it with a grain of salt. I’m going to have to leave soon, just to give you a head’s up.

Running out of Time

RW: What time to you have to be out of here?
HL: I probably should leave here at noon.
RW: So, can we ask a few more questions? Seems there is a limit on our time here as well.
HL: Please.
RW: What types of client is TLDP intended for? Adults, kids, couples, families?
HL: Good question. Yes, it can be done with individuals, couples, families and groups because of the systems orientation, so it’s going to be looking at interpersonal interactions. It was designed for individuals. I have taken it to the level of dealing with couples, and I know others talk about the similarities with Irvin Yalom’s approach to group therapy, but I don’t know anyone who is purposefully looking at a TLDP perspective within groups per se.
RW: What’s the most satisfying part about doing clinical work for you?
HL: Just the honor of being let into people’s lives. It is really so phenomenal to be let into the depths of their lives like so few people are, and I feel very honored by that.
VY: You’ve obviously been practicing for a few years now, and you’ve trained hundreds of therapists. What are some things that you know now about doing therapy that you didn’t know originally or when you were younger? What are some key points for young or developing therapists that you could pass on to them?
HL: Don’t be afraid. Don’t be afraid to share who you are, to really make who you are work for you. Yes, the theories are important, the expertise is important, the learning is critical, but that which is uniquely within you, make that work for you. If you have a good sense of humor, make that work for you. If you’re more reserved, make that work for you. Whatever it is, that’s what makes for the best therapy possible.
RW: That’s a very good point. Some theories of therapy are extroverted therapies in what they call on the therapist to do. Psychoanalysis pulls for a more of an introverted approach, meaning the therapist is more reserved and less interactive. CBT is a more of an extroverted approach, where you’re coaching more, and so forth. Yet some quiet CBT therapists are wonderful, and some analysts find a way to practice using their extroverted personality.
HL: Yes, make it work for you.

If you can bring the combination of who you are and your unique gifts combined with the expertise, that’s unbeatable.

If you can bring the combination of who you are and your unique gifts combined with the expertise, that’s unbeatable.

RW: I think you’re right. Many of the master therapists that we’ve interviewed have focused on the therapist bringing themselves to the encounter of psychotherapy. That whatever you do–the more you can bring yourself into your work, the better it is. And I think it has a lot to do with countering much of what we have been taught, but also it has to do with being vulnerable and being willing to take risks. Well I see we’re at the limit of our time today, so I want to thank you for engaging in this thought-provoking discussion.
HL: I’ve enjoyed it myself. Thank you.

Jeffrey Kottler on Being a Therapist

The Therapist's Experience

Rebecca Aponte: In your book, On Being a Therapist, you talk about some of the challenges and personal fulfillment that come from being a therapist, as well as the need of therapists to embrace the ambiguity of human experiences and the process of the therapy itself. What did you mean by all that?
Jeffrey Kottler: I don't know.
RA: That’s a great answer!
JK: I've just always been fascinated with the therapist's experience of doing therapy—what that feels like, how it changes us, how it penetrates us. I see the job, or the profession, or the calling, as just being this amazing gift for those of us that are privileged enough to do this work, because of these gems and things that we learn. And I know there are people who do therapy differently than this, but it's just a very weird, strange enterprise, therapy. I mean, trying to describe to your own children what you do is bizarre.

I don't really have a lot of faith that we understand how therapy works.
I don't really have a lot of faith that we understand how therapy works. One thing we're clear about is that therapy does work, but there are just so many competing explanations for that. With that said, what the client brings to us in a session is so overwhelming and so full of content and feeling that we can't hold it. So we have to find ways to live with that—to live with all this uncertainty, and all this mystery, and all this ambiguity. At the same time, our clients are demanding answers and solutions, preferably in this session—if necessary they'll come back a second time, but that's about it. Part of the job of inducting someone into the role of being a good client is teaching them a little bit of patience, and teaching them how to work the process. But all the while we're saying this to our clients, we're talking to ourselves, too, about how to live with the ambiguity of our own lives, trying to make sense of what it is that we do and what we're on this planet to do.

I find it more than a little hysterical, more than a little amusing, the different perceptions that therapists and clients have about their sessions. A couple of my Ph.D. students have done qualitative interviews where they interview the therapist and interview the client, and it's as if there were different people in the room, or different sessions. That's the thing that's so crazy: that we can't even tell when we did a good job. The session is over and we're flying high, and the client never comes back again! What's that about? We delude ourselves: "Oh, they must be cured. It was so good they didn't need to come back!" I remember Albert Ellis told me that in the interview for Bad Therapy: "When they don't come back, it's just because they don't need it anymore; they're cured." Well, good on you that you can delude yourself with that.

Victor Yalom: Do you have any idea what draws you to the experience of being a therapist?
Jeffrey Kottler: I'm interested in the taboo, in the forbidden, in the things that we don't talk about, related to therapy. When I was learning to be a therapist, there were just so many questions I had about things that I was too afraid to even ask because I didn't want people to find out how stupid I was, or to realize that I don't belong in this club. "If people find out what I'm really like, I'm going to get kicked out! I'd better keep this stuff to myself." I would sit in classrooms, and then in case conferences and workshops, and want to scream questions, like: "Do you really think that's what therapy's about?" Or, "What you're saying doesn't make any sense!" I think I read in a book review or something that someone once called me the conscience of the profession, and I'm very flattered by that. But I prefer to think of it more as the role of the little boy in The Emperor's New Clothes: not to expose, but rather to uncover the unsaid. And for me, the unsaid is the experience—not the perverse, but the wonderful, amazing joy that's involved in this journey that we're privileged to be on with people, if not as guides, then as companions on this journey.

We Feel like Frauds

VY: What are some of the questions you have asked or explored in your writing that other people might think of as taboo?
JK: Like, that much of the time we feel like frauds. That we can't do the things that we ask our clients to do. That we lie. That we can't walk the talk. That we don't understand what we're doing and why it works. That our own issues are constantly coming up. Oh, a really good one: that we're not listening to our clients half the time—half the time we're in the room we're somewhere else, while we're nodding our heads and pretending to listen.
VY: And preaching mindfulness.
JK: Preaching mindfulness when we're planning what we're going to make for dinner. And I don't mean to make fun of that. I don't think human beings can stay present. I've been doing this survey for 20 years when I do workshops, asking, "What percentage of the time would you estimate that you are present with your clients on the average, keeping in mind that there are some clients who are so riveting that we really are there almost all the time?" And I've gotten answers between 20 and 70 percent, but the average really is about 50 percent, and I think that's pretty darn good!
RA: That sounds about right.
JK: I think that's a high exaggeration. But I monitor this in myself and I'm kind of amused by it. I'm amused by it right now—as I'm talking to you, I'm somewhere else. I have to go onstage in an hour and there's a part of me that's still planning what I'm going to do in an hour at that stage, all while I'm saying this. And I don't want us to be ashamed of that. I just want to talk about it, because I need to talk about it. In the early part of my career, I was never fortunate enough to be in a very supportive working environment where I could trust my supervisor or my colleagues. They felt competitive; it felt like it just wasn't safe. So because I had to hold onto this in the early part of my career, maybe that's why I had to write.Aponte: It's interesting to use the metaphor of the emperor's new clothes, because there is a nakedness in the way that you write—this insecurity about what kind of a job you're doing, and what kind an impact you're having, if you're having any impact at all.

Yesterday, I was doing a workshop on relationships in a therapist's life, and I was talking about the work I do in Nepal with young girls at risk to be sold into sex slavery; we give out scholarships to keep them in school. It costs a hundred dollars to keep one little girl out of sex slavery, to keep her in school for a year. So it's redefined how I think about money. I was using an example of how my belt broke two days ago, so I went to the mall to look for a replacement belt and saw this amazing alligator belt—$400. And I thought, "That's four girls! That's four girls' lives. So if I could find a belt for $60, then I can…" Even though I don't take the $350 and give it to the girls, I still think that way.

So anyway, someone came up to me after the workshop and she said, "God, it must be so hard to be you, to be so hard on yourself all the time, if that's how you really think about money! You must be in anguish." I had forgotten to mention the other side: that, maybe because I was a cognitive therapist early in life, I don't do guilt. I am really just a peaceful, calm person almost all the time. And I hardly worry about anything that I can't control or do something about. So I forgot to mention that other thing! The way that woman perceived me is that I must be very troubled to talk about this, and think about this morbid stuff all the time, and I must be so hard on myself—all the stuff I write about fear of failure and perfectionism and all that.

There are two themes that live within me. One is that I really am never good enough. After every performance, including this interview, I think about what I could have said, what I should have said, what I wished I'd said. "I can't believe I didn't say that; oh, I forgot that." And then the other part is total and complete forgiveness within five minutes, like, "Okay, on to the next thing. What can I learn from that interview that's going to help me to do that better and be more responsive next time?" So those are the two. And this woman yesterday helped me by asking that question, because I haven't really talked about that—the two, the yin and the yang, both of them living together.
RA: It sounds like the relationship that you have with that part of yourself recognizes that as part of your driving force to constantly get better. And that was the whole point of your book, Bad Therapy: that we can learn this way. It sounds to me like that’s the way that you learn, and that’s the way that you continue to grow—rather than controlling that inner critic, it’s really more like embracing it.
JK: And honoring it, and really feeling grateful for it. I don't learn very much about therapy anymore, reading books or whatever. But I learn so much watching people who are just good at anything they do. I've been reading Gladwell's new book about what leads to success—and it's ten thousand hours of experience. Gladwell's point in The Outliers is that people who are extraordinary in their fields just work harder at it than anyone else. They work at it so hard that it looks easy. And I embrace that idea.
VY: So how do therapists work hard at being better therapists?
JK:
The single best thing that predicts excellence in what we do is how we respond to our consumers.
The single best thing that predicts excellence in what we do is how we respond to our consumers. My consumers are mostly students and readers because I don't do that much therapy anymore. But I want to be a much better teacher that I am. I think I'm really, really good, but not nearly as good as I want to be. And I think that's why, after almost 35 years of teaching, I'm still so incredibly excited about what I'm doing.

Yalom, to get back to your question about what therapists can do, I have friends that have been practicing for decades that see anywhere from 25 to 50 clients a week, basically following the same theoretical orientation they've always used. They report to me that they still very much enjoy their work, and still feel enlivened by it, and I have to tell you that I don't understand that. I believe that they believe it—I think I believe that—but a part of me says it's impossible.

But maybe that's a statement about my own needs for change. I reinvent myself at least every five years because—here's my neurosis right out here—I get so bored with myself. I'm tired of my own stories. I get tired of doing things. I've taught the group therapy course well over a hundred times, and the reason I like teaching group therapy is that it is always different, it is never the same. You can change one person in the group and it's different. That means I'm always challenged and always stimulated.

I think therapists get lazy. I think we've got our favorite stories, we've got our favorite techniques and metaphors that have been tested in the trenches for years. They produce predictable outcomes, so we just go on cruise control: "Oh, here's another one of those." And it works. But I just get bored with myself if I don't feel like I'm learning something new or I'm out on the edge, on a learning edge to get better. But that is more than a little exhausting.
RA: Where do you source your change from? Do you feel that you change in response to what your consumers—students or clients or readers—are wanting from you?
JK: I change everything I can that's within my power to change. For a while I used to change jobs. That was somewhat self-destructive because I had a family and a young son at the time, and my wife and son would always come with me. We lived in Peru and Iceland and Australia, and we lived in five different universities in the United States. I was moving every five years just because I was hungry for something new. And while I don't believe in regret, there's a part of me that feels a little wistful about what it would have been like to be in one place for long enough that I would actually see my students around town as they became professionals. This might be my seventh university or something like that. It's my last one; I'm at an age now where I know this is where I am. And I love that feeling, too. I've changed my theoretical orientation, or at least it's evolved, every two years. I'm amused that when a client comes back to see me after five years, they think I do therapy the same way, and I don't anymore.
VY: Who’s the judge of that? You think you don’t…
JK: I'm pretty sure I don't. Because they expect certain things of me and I sometimes have to explain, "Oh, by the way, I don't do that anymore. I approach it this way. I still remember how to do it if that's what you want, but I've got some new stuff here that's kinda cool; maybe you'll like this too."
VY: Of course. But so much about therapy is the relationship. Although you may feel you’ve changed, do they experience you differently as a person?
JK: Actually, another one of the cool things about aging, at least in the literature I'm aware of in men—but I'll just talk about me—is, as I've aged, I think I've become even more transparent, more authentic, and more willing to take interpersonal risks with clients in session to help them feel safe. I was a therapist when I was 21—and I look young now, but I am going to be 58. But boy, did I look young then.
RA: 21—that’s quite young!
JK: Yeah, it was quite young. So, early in my life, I had to devise ways to get respectability so people would take me seriously. And even when I was in my 30's, I looked like I was in my 20's. I looked in the mirror recently, and I think I'm old now: I have gray hair! I think people look at me as old. Actually, I know they do, because my students now look at me as their father, which is a little depressing. But I like that I've finally reached a point where I look like what a therapist is supposed to look like.

Maybe Doubt isn’t such a Bad Thing

VY: Do you think it’s really important that therapists are honest with themselves about their doubts, about themselves and their work, the variety of their desires?
JK: No, I don't think it's good for all therapists to open up that can of worms if that's not some place where they want to be or some place they want to go, or maybe that's just not their experience. I meet and know therapists that say they don't have doubts. I envy that—I think. No, see, that's a lie! I don't envy that. See, that's one of the lies I mean: I catch myself saying things like that that I don't really believe, but they're the kinds of things I'm supposed to say.
I don't envy therapists who don't have doubts; I mistrust them
I don't envy therapists who don't have doubts; I mistrust them—maybe because it's so far from my experience, and because I think that doubting and questioning lead me to be more of an explorer of things

So I don't think I believe that's the case with all therapists. But the ones who come to my workshops or my classes came there for a reason, so there's a level of informed consent. If someone comes to a workshop or picks up a book that has a title like Clients Who Changed Me or Bad Therapy or whatever, then they're saying, "Okay, I'm open to this." But one of the beautiful things about our work is that there are just so many ways to do this that fit different personalities and different styles.

I go to a lot of programs where experts stand up with total and complete certainty and they say, "This is truth, this is the way it is." And it might often be prefaced with the statement, "The data supports blah blah blah." Or they'll say, "The empirical evidence supports blah blah blah and it follows that…" Because you say, "That's The Data, The Evidence; therefore, there it is," then it ends the conversation. What makes it especially funny is that then you go into the next room and the next conference, and someone says, "The evidence supports…" and then the exact opposite of what you just heard.


RA: So how do therapists bring that ambiguity into the room, or bring their own doubts into the room? Because I imagine that’s part of what makes them human.
JK: You know, I don't bring it into the room. When I and a couple of colleagues about fifteen years ago were looking at all the research on therapeutic relationships—and this was in a book called The Heart of Healing: Relationships in Therapy—I remember what we considered groundbreaking at the time was that there is no "Therapeutic Relationship." The best therapeutic relationship is one that's individually designed and tailored for each client, not for the therapist's convenience. My fantasy is imagining my clients in the waiting room comparing notes about what my therapy is like, and they think they're seeing different therapists. And they are, because I'm not the same with any. If I'm seeing a working-class man who's skeptical of therapy, works in construction and is not sophisticated about the emotional work, we would work in a very different, concrete, specific, goal-focused, male-respectful way.
RA: So it sounds like you actually do bring the ambiguity into the room, but maybe not in a way that your clients would tell. You might bring it by responding differently to each client.
JK: For some clients, I think the source of their anxiety or their depression or their helplessness is that their lives feel out of control because there is too much ambiguity in their lives. So the whole idea of doing a personalized assessment for a client is, if you have too much ambiguity in your life then you need more structure and an illusion of certainty.
VY: So, for you, being comfortable and exploring your own ambiguity feels right, but it’s not something you’re going to share with your client if it’s not helpful to them.
JK: That meets my needs, not the client's needs. I have preferences, as all therapists do, about the kinds of clients I like to work with. My perfect client is me—someone like me, that's got my unresolved issues, so that I get to do my work.
If I had my way, I'd prefer to do a Yalom-esque, existentially based, search-for-meaning long-term relationship, probably with a professional male. If I had my druthers, that's my YAVIS client, my perfect client who would come in. But I get a couple of those in a lifetime.
If I had my way, I'd prefer to do a Yalom-esque, existentially based, search-for-meaning long-term relationship, probably with a professional male. If I had my druthers, that's my YAVIS client, my perfect client who would come in. But I get a couple of those in a lifetime.

And, with managed care and all the other kinds of things, if I have a client who comes in and says, "I have one session with you, this is all we have," I'll do brief therapy like the best of them. I will rise to the challenge, because that's what the client needs. But I can't say I like that as much as I would if I could do relational-oriented work with someone that wants to do some deeper explorations into what gives their life, and all lives, greater meaning. I get off on that, because that's my journey.

I suppose what I teach my students is that it's fine to pick a theory, any theory, doesn't matter which theory—pick a theory to start with or, pick a theory that your supervisor likes because you've got to make your supervisor happy—and then over time you're going to have your own theory, your own way of understanding what this work is about. And that's the growth edge that we were talking about earlier.

I feel sorry for therapists that come to workshops like this to get their CEUs. I see that because I do so many of those workshops. And I can see people sitting in the audience that have this huge sign on their forehead: "I am only here for my CEUs. Entertain me, damn it, because I don't want to be here, and you're not going to teach me anything I don't know, anyway." I might agree with that last statement, and I will entertain them, but I think that's a bit sad that they really think they've got it already.

Integrative Therapy: Replacing “Or” with “And”

VY: When you’re training students and trying to in some way mold the next generation of therapists…
JK: Or grow, instead of mold.
VY: Sure. What do you do to help make it safe for them to explore, to be aware of their own inner world as therapists?
JK: All the things that I'm doing with you right now—that is,transparency and the most brutal honesty that I'm capable of. And modeling for them, as much as I can, that I'm not afraid, and I'm going to show you the parts of myself that I think are least likable. And what do you notice happening when I show you that? My hypothesis is that you like me more—that the more I show you the parts of myself I don't like, the more you respect me and the more you like me. Isn't that interesting?
VY: What you’re advocating is still counter to, I think, the basic framework that we have as therapists.
JK: Is it?
VY: You know, people talk about countertransference, but it’s still almost as if, well, you’ve got to resolve your countertransference.
JK: I believe in countertransference; I believe in projective identification. I believe that those are phenomena that exist. I'd been classically trained in a strong psychodynamic background, a strong cognitive-behavior background, a strong person-centered background. I went through all of those stages and a dozen others in my career. So I honor all of those concepts. I think they exist; they exist within me; I recognize them with me. But it's not either/or, it's and:
the feelings that we have for our clients or our students are both real and projections, not one or the other.
the feelings that we have for our clients or our students are both real and projections, not one or the other.
VY: Sure. I like what you’re saying. I think there’s still a bias in our profession that we work these things through quickly to become “mature” therapists.
JK: I sure don't believe that. But what I love that's happening: it feels like there are other people that are, if not joining me, going way ahead of me in this regard. The whole constructivist movement, narrative therapy movement, and feminist therapy movement, and relational cultural therapy are now all about honoring the egalitarian relationship between therapist and client: therapist not as expert, but as partner, as collaborator.

Therapy was dominated by men and male-oriented thinking for the first century. But now, because my students are mostly immigrants and minority students in Southern California, a lot of the traditional white-man theories don't really fit their client populations. Most of my students are immigrants who work in their own communities. You can't do cognitive-behavior therapy or existential therapy, or person-centered, or Ericksonian, or any of these mainstream therapies—you can't do them as they were designed when you're doing it in Vietnamese or Mandarin or Spanish.
VY: Why not?
JK: Well, I guess you can. My point is there's a tremendous cherishing and honoring of difference, and the idea that you adapt what we do as therapists, not just for that individual client but for the cultural context of their experience, the community in which they live and function. So it feels like there's much more respect for the therapist's experience.

For my next book on creativity, which I'm writing with Jon Carlson, we interviewed a number of therapists, but a couple that stand out are Laura Brown, a feminist therapist, and Judy Jordan, who's a relational cultural therapist. And they both use the four-letter word when they describe their relationship, that is, love: that therapy is about love. And
I believe that it's a non-possessive, non-exploitative kind of love that our clients feel for us and that we feel for them.
I believe that it's a non-possessive, non-exploitative kind of love that our clients feel for us and that we feel for them.

I've been doing qualitative research my whole life, and I had to do it in the dark because it was never respected as legitimate research. Now qualitative research is one of the preferred methods. When I first started doing this, everyone was doing grounded theory, which is ex-quantitative researchers doing qualitative research but being uncomfortable with it, so they do all this coding. Most of my students are doing narrative analysis now, which involves preserving the stories, the lived experiences, the phenomenology of the people they're talking with—being able to do a thematic analysis of it, not the same way that therapists do, but in a parallel process. "What is the meaning of this?" And, "What are the intersections between the lives of these different people I've spoken to?" The last study one of my students has done is with therapists who had clients who committed suicide and who were marginalized afterwards—could never speak about it, could never talk about it.
VY: The therapists?
JK: The therapists. And what's so forbidden about this is that therapists are not allowed to grieve or express their own loss of a client.
RA: It sounds like you get really energized by the exploration of the tremendous variability of human life.
JK: I get excited when I learn something I don't already know; that really gets me going. I like working with therapists and working with students—and for that matter, working with clients—who bring something in that I've never thought about before, never encountered before. It's my fault because I get lazy. Someone comes in and they say, "I'm depressed because I don't have a job," and I think, in a lazy way, "Oh yeah, you're another one of these."
VY: You’re 58 and you’ve written about 75 books, so laziness is the last attribute I would think to describe you.
JK: I meant laziness in my therapy, where I put someone into a category instead of honoring the uniqueness of what they're bringing. Every client really is unique. This kicks in that perfectionistic stuff again—the voice: "Kottler, it's you! You're the problem, not what your clients are bringing you. And if you stop looking at them as being similar, they wouldn't be similar." Then that forgiveness voice says, "Yeah, but you do the best you can. You're busy; you're writing five more books. So give yourself a break."
VY: What it seems you were speaking to is the fundamental trait of curiosity about others and about yourself, which I think is a great trait in a therapist: to be genuinely curious.
JK: Maybe about some kinds of therapists, but I'm imagining people reading this that don't think that way, and I want to honor their experience too.
That's another one of the things that's so great about being a therapist: you can be a therapist so many different ways.
That's another one of the things that's so great about being a therapist: you can be a therapist so many different ways. And it's much harder work for me to do this, but I like helping each therapist develop their individual style rather than trying to be like me or someone else. But it's much easier to teach people, "This is the way." There are some really good habits and skills and knowledge-base kinds of things that everybody must learn and get down before we let you loose to start doing this with other people. Everybody has to start with all these generic skills, and the basic research and theory in a field; developing your own voice is something that happens years later.
VY: It is. I think, unfortunately, people get professionalized and homogenized in graduate school and have to unlearn a lot in order to find their own voice ten, fifteen years later.
RA: Yeah. I’m wondering whether you’ve found that there’s a way to circumvent this. Are you helping students to find their own voice, or to maintain their voice, earlier in their training?
JK: Yeah—back to something we talked about earlier—by modeling the doubts and uncertainties.
RA: Right.
JK: And that's a huge feature of what I write about and teach: "Why would you want to be like me? You might say I'm ahead of you in some areas, but I'm still questioning, still trying to make sense. That's what I want to model that you do, because we never become this finished product." That's another one of the taboos we mentioned earlier. We never—I'm saying we—
I will never get to the point where I think I know what I'm doing.
I will never get to the point where I think I know what I'm doing. And for students to hear me say that out loud, they just eat that up.
RA: It’s liberating.
JK: Yeah! And—now I have to remember the second part of that, the second thread that that person told me earlier—and I'm not bothered by that. I don't worry about it, I don't feel ashamed of it, I don't think about it. It's really good to be me. It's really good to be calm and accepting about the things I don't know and understand.

The Secret to Writing: Just Do It

VY: When you’re working with a client, there must be some times when you feel like you know more, and sometimes you know less.
JK: Yes, of course. And with teaching it's like that as well. But—back to that theme about being bored with myself, bored with my stories—I've repeated some of them in this interview that I've written about in books. And I feel badly about that, because I don't like to repeat myself. And when you've written 75 books, how much experience could a person have to put in 75 books? It's really hard work to go out and find new experiences for the next interview or the next book. And I feel bad about that. Audiences and readers are very forgiving. They say, "Oh, but it was such a good story, it bears repeating." That's so kind, but I hated when my teachers would repeat a story that we already heard before.
VY: I imagine people frequently ask you how you have written 75 books. You probably have some standard answers for that, but could you come up with a new answer?
JK: Here's the new answer, because I've been thinking about this: it's really, really easy. Because people ask me all the time, "How can I write one book, or how do I become a writer?" It's easy: write!
VY: For you it’s easy.
JK: No, it's easy for anyone! If you write, then you're a writer. It's like, I don't decide in the morning when I wake up that I'm going to brush my teeth. I just brush my teeth; it's something that I do. Live, breathe, keep good dental hygiene. So I don't decide I'm going to write everyday. I just write everyday. It's part of who I am, and it's so intrinsically satisfying. I love it so much because it's part of my curiosity. I write about things to try to make sense of the world, and I just love it. There's sex, there's skiing, there's surfing, there's being with my family, and there's writing. And that's what I love. So it's not work. I don't ever have to make time for it. It's just there. It's just what I do. And I'm a really good writer because I've found my voice. People tell me all the time I write just like I speak. So I don't have to rewrite anything that I write. It comes out beautifully in a first draft; when I see editors, they don't have anything to do with my stuff.

I never had a good foundation; I needed glasses. Up through junior high school, my dumb parents never got my eyes tested. I memorized the eye chart in school because I was embarrassed. But the whole world was foggy. I could never see anything. I used to sit right in front of the television to watch cartoons. My dumb parents didn't say, "Duh, this kid can't see. Why do you think he's right in front?" So I could never see the board in school. What that means is I never learned grammar. So I don't have the basics, but I think I learned to write because I just love to write, and I do it everyday.
VY: Well, you have a natural ability. Some musicians can hear a tune and play it on the piano; most people can’t do that. They have to learn the music.
JK: I don't know. You say it's a natural ability. I think I worked my ass off to be able to do this. I think I just flat-out worked harder than anyone else I know to do this. And I still work harder than anyone else I know to do this.

And, by the way, let me just put this qualifying thing: I save so much time in my life for play. I will not do a workshop or a presentation in a place unless there's fun associated with it, or it's someplace I want to go or want to be. I find time for myself. I read a novel a week.
VY: How much do you sleep a night?
JK: That's the thing: I don't sleep very well. But that's bladder-related. And my wife is the same age, so we kid each other that we only need a single bed because one of us is up… including last night. Last night I got up at three and that was it.

I think we're going to have to end here.
RA: Any last comments?
JK: I think the bladder one was a great last comment.
VY: I don’t think we could top that one. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us.
JK: This was fun. You got a good interview out of me because it was fun, dynamic and interactive. And I said some new things, so that's good.
RA: Good, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Mardi Horowitz on Psychotherapy Research and Happiness

The Interview

Victor Yalom: You had the audacity to write a book entitled A Course in Happiness. I guess this begs the question: as a psychiatrist and therapist, do you really know something about happiness that’s teachable?
Mardi Horowitz: I think so. And it took me a few decades to feel that that was the case.
VY: Say more.
MH: Well, I have always had a philosophical bent; I studied Zen Buddhism in my early 20's.
VY: Before it was fashionable.
MH: Well, I think that was the start of the fashion–not with me, but with my teachers.
VY: I guess it’s been fashionable for thousands of years, but before it was fashionable in mainstream psychology.
MH: Then Suzuki and Erich Fromm wrote a book on psychoanalysis and Zen. I was also reading Freud at the time—I was reading Freud in high school—so my professors really directed me to the big questions of the human predicament. I'd also always been struck by the line in the Declaration of Independence: "the pursuit of happiness." I'd seen an earlier copy in Washington, D.C., and it said "the right to happiness." There's a little insertion there—probably it was Thomas Jefferson—"the pursuit of happiness." And I sort of pondered that: Well, how do you pursue it? That is, you can't have it—that was the idea. It was the journey, rather than the arrival, that might give you contentment.

That notion persists in my use of the word "course" in A Course in Happiness. It means two things. One: navigating. I'm a sailor, and the practice of sailing teaches you very quickly that you can't sail into the wind, even if that's where you want to go. So if you want to go to San Francisco from Sausalito, you have to hit the winds coming from San Francisco, which, fortunately, it rarely does. You can't just point to the Trans-America Pyramid to get there. You have to go back and forth. But you need to chart your course so you get there with the most economical and speedy means.

The second meaning of "course" is a course that's full of lesson plans and teaching points. My years professing and being a bit of a pedant, I think, have a practical payoff in that I know how psychotherapy trainees learn. And I think those lessons for psychotherapy clinicians, and those lessons learned by psychotherapy patients over a period of time, can be translated so that people can use them on their own if they have the motivation—hence A Course in Happiness.

VY: You’re a psychiatrist by training as well as a researcher, but also a therapist. We therapists tend to think we know techniques to help people explore things and understand themselves better, but I’m not sure we’re all on board with the idea that we actually have content to teach them.
MH: Yes. I'd say that's been the topic of my clinical research for my career—content can be determined using empirical research. For instance, my 1976 book, Stress Response Syndromes, laid out the information-processing model that then defined the symptoms that became the criteria for PTSD. It wasn't that people didn't know about those symptoms, but there were a variety of conflicting theories of what caused the symptoms. And by doing clinical, field and experimental studies, we could nail it down enough to settle the controversies.

So I think, by using empirical work, we can find that working clinicians agree on how contents change—that's the critical thing. How does the mind's narrative about self and others, for example, change in therapy so the person's able to make more reasonable plans?

That's not how psychotherapists are taught, however, and it took a few decades for me to learn how people learn to be psychotherapists. For example, a young teacher who's really bright and a good clinician will come in and tend to teach theory. Then the trainees will complain because they're not emotionally ready for the theory of how things work. They want to know, how do they even survive with their cases? They want to know how to do it right away. So I think we have to go with what people are motivated to learn. The first thing we teach people so they're less frightened when they're doing therapy—which is scary at first, as you know—is, "Borrow from me these techniques, these rules of thumb. Later on, I'll tell you why you don't always use this rule of thumb, and when this technique can be harmful, or at least not helpful." Then, after a year or two, when they feel comfortable, you can start teaching them how people change.

There tends to be a Y in the road because some therapists feel so confident in themselves, once they're able to establish a trusting, calm relationship with disturbed people, that they just go and do it by intuition. And their patients get better, so they have feedback that they're doing a good job. But they don't understand what's possible for the person.

That's where the content comes in: what are change processes? For example, grieving is a change process that occurs on both conscious and unconscious levels, to change the narrative of life so the person can accept a loss and move on.

Defining Happiness

Rebecca Aponte: Getting back to happiness, how do you define this? What is your definition of happiness as something we could train people toward?
Mardi Horowitz: Very often, the really big concepts that have been around since words were first written on tablets are very hard to define. Justice, truth, happiness are those kinds of words. So it has to be kind of broken down into its components. The components that I deal with in A Course in Happiness are pretty long-range components like contentment, satisfaction with yourself articulated in your life—rather than joy, which might be when you open a birthday present and it's what you wanted.
VY: So that’s shorter term.
MH: That's pretty short term. You can say, "My dog is happy if I give him a bone," but it's a state of mind rather than an enduring life skill.
RA: I see.
VY: Martin Seligman takes the stance that, as therapists and psychologists and psychiatrists, we’ve tended to focus over the years on psychopathology, on the negative emotions—stress, anxiety, depression, and the like—and the assumption was that if you get rid of the negative emotions, what you’re left with is happiness. He’s taken the stand that that’s actually not the case—that’s really more like neutrality—and happiness, as he’s researched in positive psychology, is a whole other set of things. I’m wondering what your stance is on that.
MH: Well, A Course in Happiness is, in a way, taking that stance and going pretty well beyond it. I think the stance is correct as far as it goes, like Norman Vincent Peale's The Power of Positive Thinking. There is the power of positive thinking, and I think the positive psychology theory, like evolutionary psychology and self-psychology, are all really excellent additions to theory. But it's very hard for people to inhibit attention to negative topics. That's the essence of the critical symptoms for PTSD that we have studied experimentally as well as in clinical subjects, which is that they have intrusive thoughts. So you can say, "Don't have intrusive thoughts." And, as you know from other research, that tends to increase them rather than decrease them. So a big message in A Course in Happiness is to pay attention to where you're paying attention, and that there's a lot of work in addition to focusing on having more positive experiences—for example, developing more reflective self-consciousness and reducing harsh self-criticism, a source of negative feelings.
But you don't get into positive emotions by telling yourself that you're just a grand, creative wonderful person who's always compassionate, when that isn't true.
But you don't get into positive emotions by telling yourself that you're just a grand, creative wonderful person who's always compassionate, when that isn't true.
RA: Right.
MH: Reality is the enemy of an enduringly positive frame of mind. The Dalai Lama's Art of Happiness, Seligman's research in positive psychology, or Daniel Gilbert's book Stumbling on Happiness—I think it's really good research, and it's really good philosophy, and it's really good spirituality. But along with being positive and doing all the things that are in those writings, people also have to review memories of traumatic experiences. They have to recover from losses. They have to encounter grievances that have endured since childhood and given them a chip on the shoulder. They can, in a realistic way, focus their attention on positive things. That's good. But they have to have times when they focus their attention on the negative things in the right state of mind—calm, often alone, maybe with a trusted confidante—and then review these memories so as to bring their life narratives into more harmony with what's approaching in the near future, so they have plans. So A Course in Happiness deals with a systematic approach to that, derived from our studies of change processes in psychotherapy.

An Integrative Approach to Case Formulation

VY:
MH: One of the things in psychotherapy that our group has done is we've developed an empirical basis of case formulation, which allows an integration across different brand names in psychotherapy.
VY: Now, case formulation is an old concept, but I think you have a particular way of approaching that.
MH: Yes—standing on the shoulders of not only the old psychoanalytic and psychodynamic concepts, but also of people like Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis and Bugental, who were taking out of the 1960's psychoanalytic mode of formulation those things that were changeable. I don't think they disrespected the idea of unconscious dynamics, but they were saying, "Well, what can change?" If we really clarify it, change is going to take place through the use of consciousness as a tool.

We know from psychotherapy research that the relationship is the most important factor, but in our research studies we examined some additional variables.
The reason that specific techniques didn't seem to come out in many different psychotherapy studies is that it's different strokes for different folks
The reason that specific techniques didn't seem to come out in many different psychotherapy studies is that it's different strokes for different folks–a technique that's focusing on deeper emotional values may be good for some people, but actually may be even harmful and disorganizing for other people. If you don't get into the dispositional variables, then you get a washout.
VY: It seems like you always hear those questions in research: what techniques are good for what clients in what circumstances? But you never really hear the answers to that. You always hear, “It would be good if we could tailor treatment to people, but…” You hear things like, “CBT is good for depression.” But then you look at studies that say it’s no better than anything else.
MH: That doesn't mean it's not effective.
VY: Sure.
MH: And there's a huge fallacy out in the field that people don't even acknowledge. Once I say what it is, everyone will say, "No, no, no, no, no, of course we don't believe that." But there still seems to be a prevailing fallacy, which is that more studies of effectiveness means the therapy is more effective. It's simply not true. I mean, everyone knows that's not true. Psychotherapy has been very well established to be effective in general. But that doesn't mean it's effective for every case, and certainly we see negative therapeutic outcomes in some people. Some people start psychotherapy and you end up having to hospitalize them. So there's a lot to the technique; it's not that they have a toxic therapist.

A Case Study: Clone One and Clone Two

VY: Can you give an example of how a case formulation for a specific client may give an indication of certain techniques or approaches for them?
MH: Actually, right now I'm writing a paper for the American Journal of Psychiatry on exactly this topic.
VY: Okay, great. Good timing.
MH: So I'll give you the case example. It's a young woman whose mother has recently died. But the patient is in her 20's—she's been very dependent on her mother for guidance. She would probably diagnostically fit into a category of major depressive disorder a year after her mother's death, along with dependent personality disorder. So let's say she's put into therapy. It would be a focal therapy aimed at her in relation to her mother's death, and why she was not depressed beforehand, and why she's now depressed. Let's say she goes into therapy with a female therapist of an older, warm, trustworthy nature. So she sort of has a replacement, and her symptoms get a little better right away. But she comes in and starts expecting guidance from the therapist on what her decisions should be. And let's just leave out the issue of antidepressants and overmedication, which tends to occur with the simple cases.

Now, the therapy techniques that would be optimum for this patient will focus on helping her stabilize her states of mind, develop new relationships, modify her sense of identity, and develop better plans for the near future. This is kind of simple and obvious. That's what the patient would say she wanted, if she could articulate it.

Now, in the condensed, teaching form of this article, I start with Clone One and then go on to Clone Two of this exact story.
VY: What do you mean?
MH: Clone One is the person who, before the death of the mother, had a relatively coherent and well-developed sense of identity, but had role relationship models requiring guidance from her mother. She'd grown up in that container, but now the death has occurred and the container is broken. She feels more fragile, has a regression, and hasn't replaced those functions either by her own growth or in relationship to another person.

Now, let's say the techniques in Clone One's case are successful: they involve just being clear that that's her life story in a way; that she has, for the time being, the safety of a container with a good therapist; that in this container she's going to work through any sense that she's been shattered or abandoned; and that she's going to be helped to develop near-future plans in being more assertive, going out and forming relationships, and not being so frightened, hopeless and helpless. She gets better and lives happily ever after, because those techniques were very helpful and just what she needed, from just the right person, at just the right age milestone for that kind of development. So she's gone through a maturational path. And those techniques tend to be pretty interpersonal in discussion; we're looking at the repetitive, maladaptive interpersonal patterns, like excessively needing guidance from another person, being exploited by another person because she's seen as a sucker, and so on.
RA: Right, she’s sort of handing over control.
MH: She's handing over control and someone says, "Okay, you do this and this and this and this for me, and I'll tell you what to eat for dinner."

On to Clone Two: this patient has not had a chance in her previous development to develop a coherent self-organization, so she has dissociative fragments of identity—not only in conflict, but segregated in terms of memories. She may even have different memories of a relationship with her mother in different states of mind. So when the therapist is interpreting something in one state of mind, the patient may shift to another state of mind and be misinterpreting the interpretations.

States of Mind

VY: You refer to this idea of states of mind a lot. Can you briefly state what you mean by that?
MH: States of mind is one of the big concepts I refer to in formulation. And the reason for it has to do, again with the training of psychotherapists, which in the last 25 years has emphasized diagnosis.
Diagnosis is an actuarial thing: it's good for accountants and insurance companies, and for questions like, "How many cases of schizophrenia did we have in Africa in the last decade, and how does that compare with China
Diagnosis is an actuarial thing: it's good for accountants and insurance companies, and for questions like, "How many cases of schizophrenia did we have in Africa in the last decade, and how does that compare with China, and what does that indicate about…"

Also, diagnosis stemmed out of research: the DSM in 1980 was a drastic revision saying, "Okay, we don't have a theory of mental disorder and what causes symptoms, so let's just describe it."
VY: “Let’s just categorize the symptoms.”
MH: "Let's categorize by what we can find out in maybe a half-hour interview." So that's all that is, but of course the students think it's something real. I was on the committee for PTSD , anxiety disorders, and borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality disorders. And I'm the world expert on at least two of those things. They're my criteria—they're the best I could do at the time—but they're not etiological entities, and they're treated as if they were.

And the worst thing about the use of our product in making DSM III and then IV, and now V—the same arguments, by the way, are taking place—is that they're committee judgments. The committee knew there was a dilemma. Ultimately it came down on static descriptions, in part for some forensic reasons. So now you have to have five of these eight depressive symptoms for three months in order to qualify for major depressive disorder—something like that.

But if you have the passionate aim of teaching therapists, then after you say, "Here are the diagnoses, here are the rules of thumb," you have to say, "Now let's go back to the symptoms. What causes each symptom? Where do those different causes converge? And of those causes, where can we change things?"

So the states-of-mind concept was a way of dislodging the rigidity of static memorization of the diagnostic criteria. The idea is that
people aren't always despairing if they have despair. Or if they have a phobic symptom, they may not always be phobic.
people aren't always despairing if they have despair. Or if they have a phobic symptom, they may not always be phobic.
VY: Or dysthymia says you’re kind of blue most of the time, more days than not—so you can be quite depressive, but not blue all day long.
MH: Right. What are your other states of mind? And then the critical issue around states of mind is: how much in control are they?

The Dissociative Patient

RA: Right—which goes back to your second subject, the dissociative woman.
MH: Right. She was not in conscious control of where she was focusing her attention, nor was the therapist of the second woman able to draw her attention and keep it in a state of mind. She was flip-flopping in different states of mind.
RA: Was the therapist able to see it, at least?
MH: Well, with my fictional therapist and for the journal article, of course! But she uses a different technique from the first case. She observes that there are shifts in states of mind, and that this person is a very dysregulatory one, and begins to say, "Now, what's happening here?" Then the technique shifts more to helping the patient focus attention on her sense of self, her bodily self, her sense of self in the room with the other person, her sense of what was happening, and learning a kind of reflectiveness on these things that the person had not acquired before. And developing that skill helped the patient get a sense of pride that they were able to do that. So it's a different set of techniques.
VY: So in the second case, it’s much less focused on the disruption from the death of her mother. You deal primarily with the organization of her self that was a problem beforehand, but was exacerbated when her mother left the picture.
MH: Exactly right. So instead of coming back relatively swiftly from her regression to where she'd been in terms of her identity structure, in Clone Two it's going to be a longer therapy and a larger growth, ending up maybe five years later, where Clone One and Clone Two can sort of converge—they both have the capacity for intimacy, for interdependence rather than dependence, and they have integrity as well as control over their states of mind to a larger extent. But it may take longer and require different techniques—not totally different, because they overlap to some extent.

Configurational Analysis

VY: How do you teach your method of case formulation to psychotherapy trainees?
MH: For some reason, early trainees often come in with a kind of pseudo-psychoanalytic, excessively deep idea of what formulation is, and it's all based on projecting theory into whatever clinical material comes into the room. And it's often whatever theory they read that they thought applied to themselves. So they say, "Oh, this is what it all is," and then they just see this everywhere. Like spots in the visual field, they're illusions about patients. In fact, even seeing experienced therapists on videotapes with different cases, you sometimes see what I would frankly call errors, because they're applying the same segment of theory to every case.

So I developed a system called configurational analysis—which is based on four formal categories or levels of formulation—in part to help both students and colleagues think about cases. Here are the categories. One: Just describe what you observe, and select the phenomena you're trying to explain. Not everything—it could be one, two, or three symptoms, for example.
VY: So depression, anxiety, or disorganization, something like that.
MH: Right, exactly. So if the phenomenon one's trying to explain is depression, the second category is: what are the states of mind? What do you mean by depression? You're saying the person has the same prevailing mood that, if you were to generalize, is "depressed for weeks." What are the person's states of mind? The person may have the state of mind of piercing sorrow with pangs of yearning, and illusions that a divorced person is now coming back into the door.
VY: Much more specific descriptors of how the client experiences depression in that moment.
MH: Right. So that might be a state. It would probably be only a minute or two. And it might uncontrolled, too; it might be undergoverned. Then the person might have a state of kind of apathetic boredom with some tinge of restlessness and aimlessness, and feeling just kind of gray. And they might be able to rouse themselves from that, so it's a little bit more in control. Then they might have a state of agitated, restless urgency in which they engage in frenetic and fruitless activities. They might also have a state of irritation and anger. And then they might have a state of relative repose.
VY: And they might have several hours a day where they’re at their job and be very competent and feeling good about themselves.
MH: Right. And then you say, How do they shift in cycles of these states?

What triggers each state? "Well, when I get absorbed in my work, I get into a state of relative less-depression." What triggers the pining and yearning? And so on. So it's only one level down, but it's still observational.

What's more, you can share this language with the patient, so the patient can begin to examine their states of mind and look for the triggers, just like in positive psychology. You can say, "Well, how can I feel a little bit better right now? Maybe instead of criticizing myself for being lazy and having screwed up all my relationships, I should look at my achievements: I've done the architectural plans for three new buildings. I've made a living somehow. I've not gotten in car accidents. I'm taking care of my parents"—or whatever the person might say. So that's states of mind.

And even at the states level, you get a psychodynamic configuration right away with the patients. "What states are you frightened of entering that you can't prevent yourself from? What states would you like to enter and can't get into? And what states are you using to avoid the dilemma of trying to get into a good state but then you're afraid of a bad state?" So, you might hear, "I don't ask people out for coffee because they might reject me." You're then getting into the next level of formulation, which is: what are the themes that are related to these state transitions? And the themes are certain topics like, "Do people like me?"
VY: Fear of rejection.
MH: Yeah, and so forth and so on. So the topic might be impoverished relationships. And when they're on this topic, does that trigger them getting into the sorrowful state when they're thinking about a lost relationship, and a hopeless state when they're thinking about the possibility of avoiding rejection because they've been repeatedly rejected? Then, also, when you're talking about these topics, that's where you get into content: What are the topics of concern? What's unresolved? People may have big events but they've sort of reached resolution on them, so you don't talk necessarily about the biggest event. You may be talking about some little, trivial insult.
VY: Okay, so just clarify the third box again, it’s…
MH: It's the topics of concern. And it's what operations the person's deploying in order not to progress adaptively to a resolution on a topic. What are the obstacles to actually thinking that through in a realistic way and making good plans for the near future? So it's looking at what, in psychodynamics, would ordinarily be called defenses. But all therapy models recognize obstacles. A person paradoxically wants to inhibit, avoid or distort the very topic they're there to discuss. Once you recognize how are they doing that, then that's where a therapy technique will be deployed.

But the question will be, what will happen if you counteract their inattention and focus attention?
What therapists do, mostly, is tell patients where to pay attention.
What therapists do, mostly, is tell patients where to pay attention. And part of that is paying attention to their own attention, so this system of formulation helps. Really, micromoments of therapy decide what to do next, once the person has learned it.

But the fourth level is often what beginning therapists plunge down to with their theory prematurely, which is the self-and-other configurations. That's why this system of formulation is called configurational analysis: it gets down to the level of the self-and-other attitudes and beliefs, but then organizes state of mind. So when you have a patient who's flip-flopping to different states of mind, even in the relationship with you as the therapist, you often can then see, once you're looking at it, the difference of states, the different topics, the obstacles. You often can say, "Ah, here is a recurrent attitude—the patient's flip-flopping. Either they're the aggressor and I'm the victim, or I'm the aggressor and they're the victim." Once you see these role relationship models and each person as having a repertoire of role relationship models, of different self-images, then you can see a recurrent pattern.

On each of these levels, we've shown that you can get empirical, reliable, and valid predictive agreement between clinicians if you define the labels—so configurational analysis is an empirically based system of case formulation. It is psychodynamic in that it deals with wish, fear, defense, unconscious processes and stuff, but it's integrative in that you could take a cognitive behavior therapy clinician and see if they formulate their cases this way (we just published a paper on this; they do), if you enable them with a system. They're making the same observations. And the systems of cognitive behavioral formulation and configurational analysis and psychodynamic—they're all containable under the circus tent of these formal properties. But the stories they focus on tend to be different.

Focusing on Now

RA: How has all your research influenced or informed the way you think about happiness and about how happiness can be attained?
MH: Over my lifetime as a psychoanalytic psychotherapist, I shifted from what I was taught to focus on—which was mostly the developmental past and how it led to the character of a person, including character distortions and layers of the onion and that sort of thing—to seeing that as being important only if it's related to the near future. So my time frame as a therapist is: What's going to happen in the next minute with me? What's going to happen in 10 minutes? What's going to happen in two or three weeks with this patient? And what's going to happen to this patient over the next year or two? That's why the focus is on what can change. The questions in my mind, using the states of mind and other concepts, is: what's happening right now?

So the patient's telling me some story about some grievance that they have or a stressor event that's coming up that they're trying to prepare for, and I'm listening for how they're processing it in their mind.
I'm paying attention to the transactional music between us: are we getting closer, or are we in union of some sort, or are we getting further away?
I'm paying attention to the transactional music between us: are we getting closer, or are we in union of some sort, or are we getting further away? What's the state of mind of us as a pair? What's the state of mind of the patient? What's my state of mind? Am I getting bored? Why am I getting bored? Am I getting scared? Why am I getting scared? If I'm getting eager to make an interpretation, why am I so eager? Should I keep my mouth shut? Should I open it up? Should I be intuitive? Should I not? So I'm thinking about those things. But I'm also going to the past if it's going to help us understand why the patient's about to make the same mistake again.
VY: If you think that’s going to be helpful to them.
MH: If I think that's going to be helpful. Because I'm thinking, how can this patient change?

A Calm, Rational Approach

VY: Some patients who come into outpatient therapy are already very intellectualized and use intellectualization as a defense. I notice your work tends to take a fairly intellectual approach to analyzing everything. In the Course in Happiness, for instance, you advise a lot to people kind of step back a bit and take a look at their life and make some rational decisions. But I’m wondering, with some patients who are already trapped by their own overrationalization, whether…
MH: Yes, but often you find with the kind of patient you're talking about—it really is a very common obstacle—the person says, "Life is so full of predicaments," or, "How does this relate to what Nietzsche said in Fundamentals?" And of course, that's getting away from the heart of the matter. So with different patients, I might say different things. To one patient, I might say, "What do you think's happening between us?" Or to another patient I might say, "Seems to me this isn't the heart of the matter. We're talking about your decision whether to quit school or stick with your very delayed graduate thesis, which I know makes you feel either ashamed or scared and confused. And here you're talking about… What do you think's happening here?" And the patient would say, You know, it is a little scary," or "I'm a little confused." And I may say, "I am too, on your behalf!" That's what I mean by focusing attention.

Also, there's a difference between what I'm encouraging the reader to learn to do in A Course in Happiness and what the reader's going to do. I'm calm about the reader's pain. And I'm trying to say, "Try and be as calm as you can, which doesn't mean go write a philosophical essay on your predicament. Try and be as calm as you can, and allow yourself, in a safe moment, to consider your emotional distress." That's the difference between A Course in Happiness, which takes on a stress mastery approach, and a book on happiness that says, "Don't worry, just be happy"—like the Bobby McFerrin song.

I say worry, but have productive worry, and learn to stop worrying when it's not productive.
I say worry, but have productive worry, and learn to stop worrying when it's not productive. That would mean paying attention to states of mind. Is your state of worrying like going through the rosary beads of your worries? Are you repeating it and repeating it and repeating it, which is only etching in a source of negative feelings? Or can you get into a different state of mind where you're able to look at this catastrophic view of your life, and you're able to look at your excessive feelings of entitlement and expectation that life will shower you with an ever-expanding stock market? And can you get in a state of mind where you can begin to realistically look at it between these two extremes? I'm saying, "Don't avoid these things, but have tolerance for the negative feelings. Feel your feelings." But you don't get through mourning by crying ten thousand tears.
VY: But if you don’t shed any tears, that’s usually a problem.
MH: And you're going to cry, or feel like crying, when you examine some of the aspects of what you lost that got you into this stressful thing. But you have to tolerate it. The point is not only to feel anger or sorrow or shame or guilt or fear or all the negative feelings. Your aim is not to be so frightened of them, so that you can use consciousness for what it's really best at: it's a special tool for resolving problems. If it ain't a problem, we don't have to be too conscious of it. It's like driving a familiar route—you sort of find you got there and you didn't remember, "Turn left and turn right and turn left. Watch out for cars." That's automatic after you learn to drive.
VY: But if you spent hours driving circles getting lost, that’s the time to pull over and look at the map or GPS and chart a new course.
MH: Right. And sometimes you have to note when the GPS is wrong and you have to pay attention, yourself.

Research on Stress and Trauma

VY: I want to shift gears a bit. You’ve spent a great deal of your career researching stress and trauma. What got you interested in that?
MH: Well, I had my own traumatic experiences, which I remembered more and more as I began to study trauma. But what really got me started was dissatisfaction with the theory I was taught as a psychiatric resident. I kept asking my teachers, "What's the evidence for that?" I didn't want randomized clinical trials. What I wanted was to have them tell me a case where they saw that to be true, and what they observed, and what made them think that was what was going on.
VY: What were you taught that didn’t make sense to you?
MH: I was taught standard ego psychology and psychoanalysis, and the emphasis was on people who were repeating aspects of an Oedipus complex. Now, I had cases and I saw them pretty frequently, and I listened very carefully, I think. It's not that I didn't see any cases with triadic conflicts—it's that I saw a lot of other stuff too. I said, "Well, what about this, what about that?" And they kept saying, "Pay attention to the Oedipus complex. Interpret defense, interpret defense, interpret defense." It wasn't wrong; it just wasn't complete. It seemed to be applied by my supervisors to some cases where, in retrospect, I would say, for example, they had borderline personality disorder, and that caused fundamental distrust in the transference—not necessarily competitive rivalry.
VY: So when you were taught, psychoanalysis was still the dominant model.
MH: Back in the ‘60's.
VY: Right. And it was before the pendulum swung in psychiatry to be all about the brain and medication.
MH: Right.
Now we're in the decade of the brain, which seems to have gone on for 30 years!
Now we're in the decade of the brain, which seems to have gone on for 30 years!

One of my colleagues calls me an in-betweener: I don't seem to accept the biological approach and I don't accept the psychological approach. Well, I'm a scientist. I'm a scientist, physician, clinician, psychiatrist—I want to understand how it works. And it doesn't work just biologically, and it doesn't work just psychologically, and it doesn't work just socially. It's an interaction of complex patterns, and we need research methods that focus on complex patterns. That means an uphill fight with study sections that give grants, because they want homogeneous groups by diagnoses. And since I contribute to the diagnoses, I'm entitled to say they're too static. I'm trying to work to redefine post-traumatic stress disorder, even though the criteria are right out of my book on stress response syndromes. And I'm at work to see us go beyond brand names in psychotherapy towards an integrative approach, which I've tried to simplify in my books States of Mind, Understanding Psychotherapy Change, and Cognitive Psychodynamics. But economics is what drives a lot of the field. So it's big pharma; it's simplified randomized clinical trials with very simple, cheap, inexpensive treatments that can be done by people who don't have much training.
VY: This is good to hear from an insider, from a psychiatrist who’s done a lot of research.
RA: Yes, it is.
MH: Yeah. Psychiatry is a complex field. And there was that big hope for a single gene for every major mental disorder.
VY: It’s always on the first page when they find it, and then six or nine months later there’s a little article on page 20 that says that the gene for schizophrenia or alcoholism wasn’t confirmed. “The Norwegians weren’t able to replicate the study….”
MH: Right. And negative studies, even those little paragraphs, are usually rejected. It's very hard to get a negative study published. Everyone likes positive studies. It's understandable because everyone wants solutions to really big problems. But the big problems are complex, so we probably need a methodology that deals with the interplay of five or six variables, not the correlation between two variables. But if you want your PhD, you'd better correlate two variables, because you'll get it done.
VY: It already takes long enough to get a PhD. We obviously don’t have time to even scratch the surface on all your research, but what are a few of your findings on stress and trauma over the years that have really stood out?
MH: Well, I think the information-processing model really holds up for stress and trauma, which is that the catastrophic event, in a way, shatters expectations. If we were all like good boy scouts, truly prepared, we would just enjoy stressors like a rough and tumble game, because we knew what to do. When we're tackled in football, or a fly ball is coming to us in baseball, we know how to handle that. We may lose, but we aren't traumatized by the loss. But an unexpected event, or even an expected event—to the extent that any expected event still has unexpected aspects—leaves an active memory in mind that is stored and has to be processed, and will come back intrusively, even if we don't want it to be processed.

The interesting thing in starting to focus on intrusive thinking is: when does it occur? I would get calls from mental health professionals who'd say, "You're an expert on trauma. I was just in an automobile accident and a passenger was injured, and it's three days later. I'm not upset. Is that okay?"
VY: And what would you say to them?
MH: I'd say, "Too bad you asked, because the fact that you're troubling to call me up and ask means you have an intuitive sense it's not processed yet. Just wait. But don't then be frightened that you're going crazy when all of a sudden, three months from now, you have a bad dream. Very often, paradoxically, you start processing a difficult experience you've had only when you feel safe. You're too close to the accident to feel safe, so you are restoring your equilibrium by waiting. But it's still there, it's in your mind, it's unconscious, and it will come back to you when you're ready. And if you have trouble with it, call me again. But, in other words, it's not abnormal to know you're in denial and numbing, which is why you're calling. If you were really okay, you wouldn't call."
VY: So your advice might be, “Wait, and when it’s a problem, that’s the time to deal with it”—not to rush in with the critical incident stress debriefing and have everyone talk about something they experienced, whether they want to or not.
MH: Right. Well, critical incident stress debriefing was really oversold, as are certain other techniques. And the word I want to emphasize is "sold." It's the economic driver that makes people want to stay within their brand names of psychotherapy, because that's how they think they're going to attract patients—because they've got the gold dealie that says, "I trained in, you-name-it, ear-twitching therapy." And probably almost anything can be helpful. In fact, therapists wouldn't do it if they didn't know it was helpful.
VY: For some people, sometimes.
MH: For some people sometimes. But they don't want to leave their economic niche until there are no patients for it.
VY: Right! Who does?
MH: Exactly.
VY: You’ve done research for decades on this topic. Were there any findings that surprised you or were counterintuitive, or that therapists, don’t know or get about stress and trauma?
MH: I think clinicians tend to underemphasize the patient's potential for growth. And the growth is going to be in terms of identity coherence and harmony. So when a person is coming out of a loss—the loss of a job or home, for example—they have to work through the meaning of that loss to themselves and their loved ones. That's top priority. They have to sustain the negative feelings. And there are sources of positive feeling that they can get, like pride and the respect of others, for handling a loss with courage and stamina—and that, itself, can change negative attitudes about identity. So instead of the person feeling, "This happened to me because I'm so worthless, or I'm so incompetent, or because I can't cope, or because I'm dependent," they can now feel, "I'm a human being. I got through this dark passage. This is a sign of real, authentic strength. I made some poor decisions, but then, who am I to predict the future? If I made a poor decision, it doesn't mean that what Uncle Charlie said about me being so stupid is how I need to see myself."
VY: So one thing is to see stress or trauma as a potential for growth; the goal is not just to return to baseline.
MH: Right.

Where Therapists Get Stuck

VY: You run a second-opinion clinic for psychotherapists, where therapists bring cases that they are feeling stuck with. Obviously every case is different, but in terms of dealing with stress or trauma, are there ways that you see clinicians get stuck or make mistakes, other than not seeing the potential for growth?
MH: Clinicians get stuck in their own attitudes.
VY: For example?
MH: For example, they've made an initial formulation of the case. They've been treating the case. And they didn't reformulate. At our second-opinion clinic, we give them a written report, sometimes a dozen single-spaced pages long. We go through the phenomenon, we go all the way through states, and then we end with technique, and we buttress this with the empirical literature where we can. So there are concrete suggestions like, "Why don't you say this?" Then we get the response from the patients and clinicians. It's extraordinarily successful.
VY: How do you know it’s successful?
MH: Well, they say so. But how we really know is that the clinician then sends another case.
VY: Could you give an example of some of the types of suggestions? Therapy is so complex and so personal that I’d think a lot of therapists would be skeptical that you can get enough accurate information. How do you really know what’s going on in the room so that you, as an outsider, could be helpful?
MH: We do two-hour interviews with the patient—you can do quite a different interview when you're a consultant than you can as a therapist. Where we have permission to, we record the interview and go over it again afterward. Then we discuss it with five senior faculty and a bunch of presidents, and then we boil it down. The patient's not paying for all that—they're paying for about 90 minutes of it, and we're spending six or seven hours as an intellectual and teaching enterprise. Then we give the written report to the therapist.

When we interview the therapists afterward, They say, "I kind of knew that—but I didn't know I knew it." They say, Yeah, now I see it!" So they had bits of it, but they didn't see how it fit together, and they didn't see where to go with it as a practical suggestion.
VY: So one way they get stuck, you’d say, is they don’t reformulate the case. How else?
RA: It sounds like what you were just speaking to is that they’re not taking that little blip of intuition seriously enough to truly consider it and to use that as a starting point to reformulate their original opinion.
MH: Right. One example (I'm fictionalizing, of course) is a case who was chronically suicidal to the point where they would get hospitalized—just from suicidality, not for psychosis. And yet the patient in therapy sessions was rational, presenting emotional topics. And the therapist, by the therapist's report and by the patient's independent report, was sort of hammering away at structuring current time, because the therapist felt that was disorganizing for the patient…
VY: Helping them structure the time in their life.
MH: Right. "What are you going to do this week? What did you do last week? Did you do your homework? Didn't you do your homework?" Giving them homework to do. Having phone calls: "If you don't call me by five o' clock, I'm calling the police," and that kind of thing. The patient definitely felt the therapist was very caring, no question. (In our second opinions, by the way, we're not referring the patient to another therapist.) But they were feeling stalemated, because while that was a little stabilizing for the patient—
VY: They weren’t getting better. They were still chronically suicidal.
MH: Right. So in our formulation, we put together a number of pieces of evidence and said, "Look: This patient has two forms of confusional states. Even though they're not manifesting their confusional states in the therapy hour, we can infer that they are having confusional states when they're not with you. And here's what's happening in those confusional states." We were specific about it, but I'll be general: They're confusing thought and action, so they're weighing, in terms of their deeply held emotional values, certain things critical to the self, when they were thoughts, not actions, and they're treating the thoughts as if they were actions. And they're confusing self and other—so they don't always know whether you said something or they said something, or you think this about them or they think this about themselves.

And those are two things that you can tell the patient about in a sympathetic way, that they do this. Then the focus of the therapy becomes: "What's the difference between thought and action, and what's the difference between you and not-you?" And, You have some vulnerabilities here, and we need to address them, very patiently, very slowly, very repeatedly."

Then the patient would say, "This is terrible"—there would be obstacles to hearing that. But once the patient realizes that you're really sticking with them like you have stuck with them, and that you are examining this together, then when they're having these confusional states outside the therapy, they can say, "Oh, I'm going to talk about this with Dr. So-and-so. I don't have to do anything about it right now."
RA: And they can know what it is, at least.
MH: Yeah. And we said, "Well, this is going to be scary for you because you think maybe if you talk about confusional states, they'll get more confused. But states are unlikely to get worse. So this is an experiment; see if they get better."

The Near Future: Research Directions in PTSD

VY: We’ve covered a wide range of topics because you’ve had a wide-ranging career with many accomplishments and contributions. What’s of interest to you now? What are you working on these days?
MH: Well, I'm trying to deal with what you might call personalized or individualized choices of psychotherapy techniques in PTSD. I don't think PTSD is treated as optimally as we can do it. And I don't think some of the manualized treatments, while they're effective, are effective enough.
VY: Say a little more—what do you mean by personalized?
MH: Decision trees. We're trying to write up a fifth edition of Stress Response Syndromes. Everything has held up pretty well in that book and successive editions, but the fifth edition will have more on how you make decisions at critical moments in therapy—like when to use exposure techniques, and when not to use exposure techniques because they're likely to retraumatize the person rather than desensitize them. So I hope that will be helpful, because a lot of people are just taught, "In Session One, give them education for 20 minutes. Then get the story of the stress event for 20 minutes. Then assign homework. In the next session, review the homework for 10 minutes, then do a gradated exposure treatment, then assign more homework, then give more education. Then in the third session…"
VY: That sounds like bad therapy.
RA: Listening to that, it’s very easy to see how so many therapists would end up underestimating the potential of their clients.
MH: Yeah. But if you want to hire somebody with one year of training and pay them a little less than you'd pay an experienced clinician, and have them be helpful to people, that will be helpful. It's just that it won't be as helpful as that patient might need. So you could start with that, and if the patient has a remission of their disorder, fine. "Come back if you have trouble." But if they don't have remission or if they've dropped out, then you have to make some new decisions. Or if you have an experienced clinician, you can make decisions all along and decide when to do what.
VY: Well, I think this has been a great discussion. Thank you so much for coming and talking with us.
MH: You're welcome. It was a pleasure.

Lisa Firestone on Psychotherapy with Suicidal Clients

Something to Lose

Rebecca Aponte: One thing that I’m really interested to know is: what are the rewards of working with suicidal clients?
Lisa Firestone: Wow. Well, obviously, the ultimate reward is if you can make somebody's life worth living so that they're no longer feeling suicidal. But it's often a real struggle—often, people who are suicidal have complex problems that are not easily solved. They also have issues with being able to regulate their emotions and tolerate strong negative emotions. While it's a diverse population of people who become suicidal, they seem to have those two things in common. Those issues have to be addressed to have any long-term effect. You could ride out crises, but they will resurface if the person doesn't learn some basic ways of dealing with their emotions.
RA: How do you stay motivated as a therapist working with these sorts of very complex issues?
LF: There's nothing like working with a suicidal patient to make you feel motivated, because there's so much concern and fear involved in what the outcome can be if it doesn't go well. Israel Orbach, who we interviewed for our film on suicide, talks about how it's really important to find something that you'll lose if the patient would die, and I think that's a really powerful idea. He's not talking about losing in terms of your status or professional or legal liability—he's talking about what you come to value in that person.
A lot of suicidal people are brilliant, funny, charming in various ways; there are a lot of positives there, too. One of the last suicidal patients I worked with was a brilliant young student. It's easy to see the things to admire from the outside. It's helping the person see themselves in that perspective, because they're seeing everything through a very negative filter.
A lot of suicidal people are brilliant, funny, charming in various ways; there are a lot of positives there, too. One of the last suicidal patients I worked with was a brilliant young student. It's easy to see the things to admire from the outside. It's helping the person see themselves in that perspective, because they're seeing everything through a very negative filter. They're not seeing their positive attributes, or potential positives in their life, very clearly.

Victor Yalom: It sounds like you’re emphasizing the importance of finding a way to connect to aspects of that client.
Lisa Firestone: Aspects of the client—the part of them that wants to live.
All suicidal people are ambivalent: part of them wants to die, but part of them wants to live as well.
All suicidal people are ambivalent: part of them wants to die, but part of them wants to live as well. And if you can connect with and help strengthen that part of them that wants to live, then you're on the right track. The trick is to not do anything to support the negative side. I just consulted the other day for a man whose wife is very distraught because her adult son committed suicide. =The night before he did it, she went from having been catering and caretaking, to blasting him. And of course now she feels very guilty about that, and is experiencing a lot of self-recrimination. She's also suicidal, herself, at this point. The husband reported that a famous drug and rehabilitation counseling center counseled the son, saying basically, "You can't even take care of yourself; how do you expect to take care of your family?"—which is actually a voice on our scale for predicting suicide risk. That's what he reported their counselor said to him the night before he died!
RA: Wow.
LF: So that's siding with the part of the person that wants to die. And it's easy to get caught up in those kinds of statements or sentiments, because the client will provoke those kinds of reactions. And I'm sure he may have precipitated that reaction, but it still was not a very therapeutic way to respond to him.
VY: So the whole idea of suicide and working with suicidal clients, as you said, brings up a lot of fear—it’s very threatening to therapists.
LF: Absolutely—especially in our litigious society, where wrongful death cases do happen. And especially with suicide, because when somebody dies by suicide, there's a lot of anger, but there's a lot of reluctance to direct that anger at the person who is primarily responsible: the person who died. So there's a lot of anger on the part of families, of wanting to accuse therapists of being the problem. There's a lot of anger on the part of therapists, of wanting to accuse families of being the problem. There is a lot of anxiety around it. And most people going into to our field are not looking to be dealing with life-or-death situations. They want to help people, have a feeling for people, and yet with suicide we are dealing with a life-and-death situation where somebody could actually lose their life. So that in itself is anxiety provoking.

Suicidal patients tend to provoke negative countertransference feelings, as well. They tend to make therapists feel like getting rid of them, just like they feel like getting rid of themselves. And they do that with friends and family members, as well. That's part of what I mean by complex problems: because they've been interacting with people in ways that reaffirm their own negative view of themselves.

Bending the Rules

RA: When you’re forging a therapeutic alliance with these types of clients, how do the normal boundaries come into play? Do you bend the rules? Are you self-revealing? Certainly the stakes are significantly higher.
LF: The stakes are significantly higher, and the need to connect with them in a manner that inspires hope, and to keep that connection with them, is crucial. When they looked at people who committed suicide while they were in treatment, there was some breakdown in the relationship where the suicidal person felt like, "Even this person can't help me." This reinforced the hopelessness and helplessness that they were feeling, as well as the desperation, which was found in the same study to be the strongest negative emotion associated with suicide. So keeping that connection is really important. But it's a complex process, and certainly
if you talk to people who are specialists in suicide, they will all tell you about times that they did things that were outside the boundaries of what we usually consider the limits of psychotherapy.
if you talk to people who are specialists in suicide, they will all tell you about times that they did things that were outside the boundaries of what we usually consider the limits of psychotherapy.

Edwin Shneidman, the father of suicidology, talks about a student at UCLA who came to see him ready to kill herself over an A-. He needed to buy time to form a relationship with her, so he went to the teacher and got the grade changed. He decided the difference between an A and an A- to UCLA was nothing; the difference to this girl was life and death at that moment. Now, we wouldn't do that with most of our clients, and I'm not suggesting that we always should, but there is a need to build and maintain that connection. And if you look at Dialectical Behavior Therapy—one of the therapies with the strongest research track record in terms of affecting people who are suicidal, particularly those with Borderline Personality Disorder —there is an emphasis on maintaining the connection through phone contact between sessions, frequent sessions, and skill building classes. As Marsha Linehan describes it herself, it's shepherding them through, checking up on them, and teaching them how to regulate and tolerate their emotions.
VY: I had a client who was suicidal in a somewhat unusual way. This was maybe 10 years ago, and AIDS was more of a death sentence. He was talking about actively going out and having unprotected sex to infect himself. I was quite concerned about him and ended up driving him to the hospital in my car because it seemed like the best alternative. I thought he needed to be hospitalized and he agreed to that. I didn’t want to call an ambulance and have him strapped into that. So I just walked down with him to the garage and got him in my car and drove him to the hospital. That certainly is not something I would normally do with a patient, but it felt right and I think it was helpful.
LF: Yes. I think, in each case, we just have to reflect on what's in the best interest of the client. And we're going to end up doing things that are, like you said, not what you would do with every client, but that are important for this particular client at this point in time. John T. Maltsberger, who is a suicidologist in Boston, talks about a client he got just prior to Christmas break, during which he usually took a skiing vacation. She was suicidal, and he was really torn: “Do I go and feel guilty the whole time and worry about her, and ruin my vacation? Do I not go and resent her for having interrupted my vacation, which will come out in the countertransference, or one way or another in the therapy?” The agreement they made was that they would have a phone call every morning at 7:00 a.m. during that vacation. She felt very cared about and contained by that intervention. He felt relieved at the end of those phone conversations: he could go skiing and enjoy his day knowing he was going to talk to her the next morning. And it worked.
RA: Is it common to collaborate with the client in figuring out what kind of things can work like that?
LF: I think working collaboratively in the relationship is the most important thing. And there's actually a group that meets in Switzerland every two years that is devoted to working on that issue of collaborative, relationship-oriented work with suicidal clients. At this conference, I have experienced a psychoanalytic person speaking right before a behaviorist, and they're saying the same thing about what you do with a suicidal client. So it's really interesting—even though the presenters represent the theoretical spectrum, they're talking about the relationship being primary.
VY: I think most of the research shows that if you really dig deep and tune into the client’s perspective, you find it’s their sense of you—that you really do care about them, that you’re willing to go outside the normal boundaries if necessary—that is what’s ultimately important to them.
LF: Certainly in some cases, and often these are people for whom the attachment relationships they had early on were not secure, and were not such that they were able to learn to either tolerate or regulate their emotions. These are things that an infant originally needs from the outside. An attuned parent provides these functions, but a parent who is depressed, substance abusing, or who can't regulate their own emotions is going to have a hard time filling that function for a young baby.
RA: And then there’s a fear to get attached to these people because, should they commit suicide, that’s a great loss to whoever is attached.
LF:
That's the thing about suicide: there's no suicide without other people being hurt.
That's the thing about suicide: there's no suicide without other people being hurt. It's not a private act between a person and themselves. Nobody's an island unto themselves enough that their suicide doesn't affect other people. Certainly, when you're the therapist, you get hurt if it happens, but also the family members, the loved ones. No matter how complex their relationships to the individual might have been, they get hurt.
VY: One of the first clients I ever saw, his father committed suicide when my client was a child. I think for children, as in this case, the sense that a parent would take their own life rather than being there for them is intensely damaging.
LF: I don't think anybody's fully studied the impact on children of losing a parent to suicide, and I think it's huge. I don't think there's a simple way to deal with it. But that's a very understudied population, and a high-risk population for suicide. Losing a parent during childhood puts somebody at greater risk for both suicide and violence.

Finding the Family

RA: Do you often bring the family into the therapy session? If you have someone coming to you who is suicidal, do you talk to their family or friends?
LF: Ideally you talk to the people on the ground, and that could be the family, spouse, or roommate. The subtle changes in behavior that are going to alert you to the likelihood of an actual suicide attempt are going to be noticed even better by the people who are seeing the person daily than by the therapist.

Some families are too toxic; they're not going to be helpful. It's going to make the situation worse. Sometimes there are a lot of complex dynamics going on in the family, so it's not an absolute given that you're going to want to involve them. But you certainly will learn information about your client that you do not know. And if you're dealing with a younger person who's still in a lot of contact with their parents, it makes a huge difference to have the family on board to understand both the level of risk and what the management and treatment plans entail.
VY: I think many of us are still overly influenced by this neutral, passive role of the therapist with the focus on boundaries. I think for almost any client it’s helpful to be in touch with family and friends. If a client’s siblings are in town, I bring them in for a session. I find out so much more about my client every time I do this—things I might have never expected.
LF: Their support system can strengthen what you know and how you can intervene. I also tell family members, if you're concerned about your loved one being suicidal, and they're in therapy, you've got to advocate for them. You have to call the therapist. Even if the therapist can't talk to you because of confidentiality, they can listen. They don't even have to acknowledge whether this person is their patient or not. But say, "I think this is really important for you to know." I had a mother contact me in Santa Barbara whose daughter was in another state and in therapy and was not doing well on her antidepressants: she was sleeping 20 hours a day on them.
VY: That’s one indication of not doing well.
LF: Right, but she wasn't telling her psychiatrist this. So how was he supposed to know? It's very hard to adjust somebody's medication if they're not giving you the feedback you need in order to do that. Families can have some power, but they can't ultimately necessarily save the person's life any more than you can as the therapist. There still is frustration because the final decision is going to be up to the person, but there's also a lot families can do.

When possible, therapists should really communicate with the family and make them part of the treatment team. I see therapists very resistant to that, like you said. Even though they may not see themselves as Freudian, they see themselves as having good boundaries, even with children. You would think that anybody who was seeing somebody under 18 would obviously be letting parents know this, but
I've heard stories over and over again of people who wanted to pull their kids out of therapy for whatever reason, and the therapist said, "Oh, no, you can't do that—this child is suicidal."
I've heard stories over and over again of people who wanted to pull their kids out of therapy for whatever reason, and the therapist said, "Oh, no, you can't do that—this child is suicidal."
RA: And that’s when the parent finds out?
LF: And the parent says, "Wait a minute, you never told me that before? How could you be treating my child and not letting me know that you thought that?"
VY: It sounds like you’ve done a fair amount of consulting to other therapists with suicidal clients.
LF: Yes, I have. That's one of the things that I do: people call me when they're concerned.

Suicide is an Acquired Ability

VY: Of course, every case is different, but do you find that there are some common types of advice you give, or some common types of problems you see in the way that therapists approach or deal with suicidal patients?
LF: Yes. Unfortunately, I think one of the problems is that, because it causes therapists so much anxiety, they tend to minimize or want to think the person is less suicidal than they are. And I think families do that too.
VY: Any examples of that pop into your mind?
LF: A therapist from the East Coast, who was seeing an adolescent boy, called me. He was sixteen at the time, and he made his first suicide attempt when he was fourteen: he took a very minor amount of medication, not even very serious. Second suicide attempt happened about a year later: he took a more significant amount of medication, but told his mom. He got taken to the hospital, and had his stomach pumped. In therapy, the day before his third suicide attempt, he basically said that he felt suicidal; he felt unloved and uncared for by his mom, who was there in the session. His mom had a new baby, was distracted as well as sick, and hadn't been paying as much attention to him as a result. The next day, he jumped off a low bridge and broke every bone in his body. He has minimal brain damage and will survive—miraculously. But everything he said the day before in therapy should have told the therapist what was coming.
There's a tendency to minimize or to think, "Well, his past attempts weren't serious." There's a tendency to not want to think that this could really happen.
There's a tendency to minimize or to think, "Well, his past attempts weren't serious." There's a tendency to not want to think that this could really happen.
RA: I read an autobiography about a woman who had dissociative identity disorder and had also attempted suicide. The author wrote that as she kept talking about suicide, she was getting more comfortable with the concept, while everyone else around her was beginning to tune out what she was saying. Do you find that that’s common?
LF: Yes. And there's a desensitization process to suicide attempts that makes the person feel like, "This is a course of action I could take." It gets easier and easier to do as they make attempts. And people do get tuned out to it, because they think, "Oh, they're just trying to manipulate us," especially with kids or teenagers. They downplay the risk and don't really hear it. I also think the therapist or the family member sees all the good traits in this person. It's hard to realize that they could really feel the way they do about themselves.
VY: So one obvious implication of this is to take people’s threats seriously.
LF: Absolutely. Take people's threats seriously. You're better off overreacting than underreacting. When a therapist seems panicked or made afraid by the patient's suicidality, it often increases the patient’s sense of hopelessness. It's experienced as basically admitting defeat or lack of ability, which makes them feel more helpless and hopeless. So it's not that we need to panic about it, but we do need to take it seriously and do whatever we need to do to make them safe, including hospitalization when that's necessary. And also really following up closely when they get out of the hospital, because that's the highest risk time: the three weeks post-hospitalization.
VY: But don’t you think it’s helpful, if you’re really concerned—if you’re scared, even—to share that with the client? Isn’t that being real?
LF: Absolutely. But not in a manner as to communicate that you are helpless to help them. Instead, what you want to communicate is that you want them to be safe, so whatever is necessary to keep them safe needs to be done.
RA: And you have to monitor how it’s impacting you.
LF:

Some Uncommon Advice


Absolutely. Making yourself a real person to them is important because that strengthens the connection. What you're trying to build is trust: you want them to see you as a safe haven, as well as the attachment for them that they may never have had.

I think another problem is trying to get a client to stop behaviors that are self-destructive but that are helping them manage their emotions, like self-harm behaviors. Many therapists just want it to stop. Many parents just want it to stop when it's their teenager. But you don't want to rip that away from somebody for whom that's a self-soothing behavior that's working, until you replace it with a more healthy coping strategy.

We have a mother whose son committed suicide days after his 15th birthday. The year before, he started to cut himself, and she took him to therapy. The therapist got him to stop, and he spent the next six months searching the attic for the bullets to the gun in the house. And the day he found them, he died.

You don't want them to just stop.
RA: Wow. I don’t think that’s advice you hear everywhere.
LF: No. I think it's hard because to most people, self-mutilation behaviors seem horrifying and painful. But to people who use them, they are very soothing. You want them to develop healthier coping strategies, certainly, but you want to do that before you just say, "Stop." So you're really looking into how they cope:
what works for them when they're stressed? Maybe that's cutting themselves, or maybe that's burning themselves. That may not sound very good to you, but for them it's working. And when it's working is not when they're going to die. It's when things aren't working.
what works for them when they're stressed? Maybe that's cutting themselves, or maybe that's burning themselves. That may not sound very good to you, but for them it's working. And when it's working is not when they're going to die. It's when things aren't working.
VY: But what does the therapist do with that? If you don’t urge them to stop, then what?
LF: I think you want to slowly replace it. You want to work with them on developing healthier strategies so that those other behaviors can fall out. But you have to respect what works for them when they're in distress, and what worked for them in the past. Then, how can we move to something that would be even a better strategy for them? But you don't want to do things to expose them more to their pain—you want to help ameliorate that pain. You've got to deal with their pain. The deep underlying psychological pain they're experiencing often has to do with their early pains and hurts, and feeling that they don't deserve to live—these core beliefs that they basically should be dead, that they shouldn't have been born in the first place.

The Power of Dissociation

VY: Sometimes. And maybe sometimes it’s just real-life crises that trigger vulnerabilities.
LF: They trigger vulnerabilities, but those vulnerabilities are there. And you talked about somebody who has dissociative identity disorder.
Certainly dissociation, I think, is a key piece in suicide, and this is one of the under-researched issues.
Certainly dissociation, I think, is a key piece in suicide, and this is one of the under-researched issues. The role that dissociation plays in violent behavior is much better researched and more spoken and written about than it is with suicide, and yet I think it's a key component to the acquired ability to kill yourself. We have some clients that feel very suicidal, but they don't have the acquired ability to do it, so it's not going to happen. But that desensitization of making attempts, of physically experiencing or being exposed to a lot of pain, of being able to dissociate… I don't think you get suicide without that ability to dissociate. And I don't mean having to have full-blown dissociative identity disorder, but certainly, having the ability or tendency to dissociate is there in people who complete suicide.

If you think about it, just on a basic animal level, an animal that's injured gasps for every last breath; so do human beings. But with people who are suicidal, they have to go so against that to actually take actions against their own body that they have to be in a pretty disconnected state. And the suicide attempt often reconnects them to themselves. They snap back to themselves.
RA: Yes, I remember that from Voices of Suicide.
LF: Kevin Hines talks about that: how he felt like he was worthless, he didn't deserve to live, he was a burden to his friends and family. He jumped, and the minute he lost physical contact with the bridge it was, "Wait a minute, I don't want to die. Wait a minute! And these people love me!”
RA: Not dissociated anymore.
LF: Not dissociated anymore—reconnected, whole different perspective. And that's one of the problems with suicide: when people use not-so-lethal means like pills or things like that, they can call somebody—they can potentially save themselves, and people can potentially find them and have time to save them. The problem with very lethal means like guns, which are the number one method here in the United States, is it's over in a second. You have to have sustained intent for such a brief period. Jumping off a bridge takes moments of sustained intent. And there's no going back, in most cases.

A Personal Philosophy on Suicide

VY: What’s your philosophical stance on suicide? Do you make any distinctions? For example, certain states are talking about the right to die if you have a physical illness. Where do you draw the line between “someone is insane” or “it’s a permanent state of pain”? What happens if someone has been chronically depressed for twenty years, and they’re miserable and they’re unhappy, and they just want to end the pain?
LF: It's a very hard one for me, because I generally believe people should have the freedom to make decisions about their life and live in any way that is meaningful to them. The problem around suicide, for me, is that the person is almost never in a rational state of mind. Even in research that has been done with terminal cancer patients, those who wanted to hasten their death were in a depressed state. Depression is treatable, even for those at the end of their lives.

We don't have optimal end-of-life care here. We do for some, but we don't for all. So there are people who feel like they're a burden to their family or they're going to eat up all the family's money, because they are. That's what will happen. That puts outside pressures on the situation, certainly, so I think it's very difficult. And I think it's a kind of slippery slope issue. Even in countries and states where it's legal, there are cases of people who have been depressed for short periods of time who get assisted in killing themselves, and I have a lot of trouble with that—people who have not had a chance to receive adequate treatment. And with optimal pain management, I don't think people generally want to hasten their own deaths. I don't think we should make people be in pain. Currently, when a person speaks up and provides feedback to their doctor, we can have optimal pain management for most situations. So I hate to make it a moral issue, but I do think that suicide always hurts other people, so I think that does make it a bit of a moral issue. It's not just between the person and themselves. And I've heard Thomas Szasz speak on this; I've heard very reasonable researchers on the other side who have reached a different conclusion. I heard somebody present on it at the International Association of Suicidology once who said, "Any doctor who feels good about assisting somebody in their own suicide shouldn't be doing it." That should be one of the qualifications: that you don't feel good about it. And who does those evaluations that decide that somebody's in the right state of mind to do that? What does that even mean?
My belief is that when anyone is in a suicidal state, they are not thinking rationally, they are at the mercy of a destructive thought process
My belief is that when anyone is in a suicidal state, they are not thinking rationally, they are at the mercy of a destructive thought process, what we refer to as the “voice.” These voices are tormenting them, causing the psychological pain they are expressing, and encouraging them to get out of the pain by killing themselves. These voices represent the “antiself,” which is opposed to the person’s going on being.
RA: You mentioned earlier that the role of the therapist in helping the suicidal person is to help them find ways to alleviate their psychological pain. Do you get to a point that you do start to explore the pain and start to work through it?
LF: You want to get to the bottom of the process that is causing the pain. You want to bring to the surface these destructive thoughts or voices, challenge them, separate from them, and act against them, helping the client to take his or her own side. You want to help make life worth living to them. So what gives them meaning? What lights them up? What matters to them? That's strengthening that self system, so from the beginning you're wanting to connect with that and support that. What you don’t want to do is anything that sides with the ways they've turned on themselves and the ways they're thinking negatively about themselves, the antiself. And it's easy to do in those moments. Even saying things like, "How could you do this to your kids?" can be interpreted as, “I really am a bad parent.” What you want to communicate is, “People really need you to stick around, and your kids need you to stick around.” It's choosing your words. It's thinking through what you're communicating or how it's coming across to that person in that moment in time. It's the same content in both of those statements, but they come across very differently.

Keeping it Real

VY: Someone reading this interview might get a little concerned that they have to weigh their words too carefully—like if they say the wrong words, suddenly they could be responsible for having their patient commit suicide.
LF: I don't think anybody can be completely responsible for another person's suicide, first of all—and
I caution therapists against thinking either that they can save every patient or that they're going to be responsible.
I caution therapists against thinking either that they can save every patient or that they're going to be responsible. But it's having the right intent to what you're trying to do with the person, and knowing where you really sit in your feelings. And trying to communicate that: that you really do care about them, that you really do want to see them be able to live and to feel better than they do now, and offering that hope that they can feel better than they do now. And when you recognize that there has been a misattunement or the client has taken something you said wrong, you admit your mistake and repair the relationship. And really helping them develop the skills and the ability to get there, partly by looking at what is driving them to feel suicidal in the first place, and unearthing the negative thoughts that they're experiencing and what behaviors they engage in when they're thinking that way. Often, when they're thinking negatively about themselves, they isolate themselves. That's when these negative thoughts take more hold over them. So getting them out of their isolation is huge.
VY: So you take a very active advice-giving role when you think someone’s at risk.
LF: No, you are active and engaged, but you are not advice-giving. When somebody's in suicidal crisis, I think they do really need you to provide the structure. It's not that you're the expert telling them how they should live their lives, but you're collaborating with them on how you can make this work.
VY: Maybe it’s a dirty little secret that I think almost all of us at some point in our lives have felt some level of despair that may involve some vague, or not so vague, suicidal thinking. This includes therapists, of course.
LF: Oh, absolutely. And having tolerance for that and for those feelings is really important. But I think for therapists it can be very scary, because any of those feelings in them could get stirred up in sitting with somebody who is really feeling that way so strongly.
VY: Do you think it’s helpful for therapists to share that they’ve had experiences like that—that they can really relate?
LF: I think it can be helpful. Again, it's how you use it and how that's going to be received by that individual. If you have somebody who's on the brink of suicide, who's really in suicidal crisis, and you say, "I know how you feel," they're often going to feel like you just obviously aren't paying attention, because you haven't had that experience. Even if you've been there, they're going to have a hard time believing that you were there and that you got where you are now. It's going to be hard for them to really feel it. So it's important not to minimize it. It's like saying to a parent who's lost a child, "I know how you feel." If you haven't had that experience, you probably don't really know how they feel. You can empathize with it—you can think about what it would be like to be in their shoes—but that's a bit different. And I think people in suicidal crisis can be very sensitive to that. So I just think it's important not to overstate it, because it will be experienced as disingenuous.
RA: It’s kind of like what you were saying earlier—that you just have to be so real, and that even amongst the different disciplines of therapists who work with suicide, it’s so incredibly obvious that it’s the relationship that matters. It sounds like that honesty is crucial.
LF: I think it's huge and yet I think there are plenty of therapists out there who do not realize this.
And I think, in managing our own anxiety about dealing with suicidal clients, it's a very good idea to get consultation.
And I think, in managing our own anxiety about dealing with suicidal clients, it's a very good idea to get consultation. It puts another person's perspective on it that can be helpful. And from a legal perspective, it's also very important because it's like taking a biopsy of the standard of care. If you consult with somebody and they agree with your treatment approach and you document that, that's also very protective. But it's also helpful for your client because if you get too distressed or feel overwhelmed by it, I don't think that's helpful for them.

And I think it's important not to have too many suicidal patients in your practice at any one time; it is just much too stressful for anybody. When we were doing testing for our suicide assessment, we were in therapists' offices all over the country, and in one case a woman had seven people in her practice that tested as being highly suicidal. She didn't intend to get in that situation. It had just sort of happened that she had taken on that much, and it was probably not the right thing to do, for her or for the patients.

Identifying Suicidal Thoughts

RA: Let’s talk about the assessment. There’s the FAST (Firestone Assessment of Self-Destructive Thoughts) that you and your father worked out. Can you describe that briefly?
LF: Sure. We started to look at what we knew about suicide, and at a continuum of negative thoughts that contribute to suicide in particular. We looked for statements from people who had made serious suicide attempts and were in the voice therapy groups we were doing at the time. All of the statements that we put on the scale were taken directly from the clinical material—things that people actually voiced. And we looked at the whole continuum of self-destructiveness, from mild self-critical thinking that we all have at one time or another, to extreme self-hatred, all the way up to suicidal thoughts. We took statements from 11 levels along that continuum and determined the statements that best fit their category based on expert reviewers. We then looked at those that distinguish between suicidal and nonsuicidal people in our pilot study. Then we tested people all around the country who were in outpatient psychotherapy, and then we did the second study of people who were in inpatient psychotherapy and had been diagnosed with the disorders most associated with suicide risk. We found that you really could distinguish between people who are very depressed and are suicidal from those who aren't, or people who have bipolar disorder and are suicidal from those who have bipolar disorder and are not. We found that people who have borderline personality disorder endorse more negative thoughts than any other group. Still there are very different negative thoughts for those who are suicidal than those who aren't suicidal.

It's interesting that cognitive-behavioral therapists focus on negative thoughts as being the underlying driver of a lot of self-destructive behavior, including suicide, but the tests that they've developed are not based on thoughts.
We ask people directly: “Do you have these thoughts toward yourself?” And we have found that people are a lot more honest about their thoughts than about their behavior.
We ask people directly: “Do you have these thoughts toward yourself?” And we have found that people are a lot more honest about their thoughts than about their behavior. For instance, there's a whole subset of items on the FAST that have to do with the kind of thoughts that lead to addictive behaviors. "Do you have an alcohol problem?" That's an opinion question and most people will say no to it—even people whom you might consider as having an alcohol problem. We're not very good at opinion questions. But if you ask them specifically, "Do you have this negative thought, or that negative thought…" They're more likely to say, "Oh yeah, I have those thoughts."
VY: So the thoughts that they identify through the FAST can reliably predict suicidality?
LF: Yes. Suicidality, substance abuse, self-harming behavior—all can be identified by the FAST. We've found that in half the cases in which a patient had a history of suicide attempts, they hadn't told their ongoing therapist. Same with self-mutilation behaviors: in half the cases, their ongoing therapist didn't know about these behaviors.
VY: What does that tell you?
LF: Well, in the case of suicide, one thing it tells you is that therapists aren't asking. The patients weren't hiding it; they just had never been asked about it. They don't want to burden their therapists with the anxiety of having to feel that they're suicidal or that they're engaging in self-mutilation. And yet, as a therapist, as much as it might cause you anxiety, you want to know those things.
RA: There may be some level of shame associated with it for the patient.
LF: There is some level of shame, and there is a level of protectiveness toward the therapist, too. And I think it's really important to draw those things out and to ask. And then I think we need to really address them as well.
RA: And take it seriously.
LF: Yes, take it seriously. And it's interesting—if you sit there with somebody while they take the FAST, when you get to the items they think only they have, they sort of startle, or they almost laugh. People will say, "Wow, where'd you get that thought?" A lot of people say things like, "I'm talking to myself a lot more than I thought I was." They start to self-identify their patterns of negative thoughts: “I can see that when I get stressed I start to isolate myself.” This is very helpful because it moves things forward in the therapy.

The reason we put these thoughts on a scale is because we've found in our research that these thoughts that people verbalize are not just thoughts, unfortunately.
The thoughts actually direct how people live their lives day to day, and how they conduct their relationships. That's why tapping into these thoughts, and really getting to the bottom of them seems so important to us.
The thoughts actually direct how people live their lives day to day, and how they conduct their relationships. That's why tapping into these thoughts, and really getting to the bottom of them seems so important to us.

Who’s Calling the Shots, Anyway?

RA: I hear what you’re saying. Watching some of the voice therapy that I’ve seen—and we’ll get into voice therapy in a second—a lot of the thoughts that people voice in these sessions sound more like commands or directives.
LF: They often are more like directives and commands. And they really do direct how these people are living their lives. For instance, the voices in the film about relationships [make a link to this DVD], you look at how a man who has a voice telling him that he needs to take care of women marries someone who can barely get across the street by herself, and then he takes care of her and resents her. Or a woman who feels like she has to get a man and hang onto him marries someone who's a child molester and stays with him. It's just really powerful how much people live out these thoughts.
VY: Maybe it would be helpful if you said a little bit about what voice therapy is.
LF: Voice therapy is really a process of giving language to the defensive process that we see the voices representing. So it's a way of getting people to verbalize their negative thoughts, and we have them do it in the format of putting it in the second person. So instead of, "I'm no good," "I'm a failure," "I'll never amount to anything," we have patients put their negative thoughts toward themselves in the second person, as though they were another person speaking to themselves. "You're no good." "You're a failure." "You're never going to amount to anything."
VY: Why do you do that?
LF: For two reasons: One is it helps to start to separate this very negative point of view from a more realistic, compassionate point of view toward the self. The other is that it brings to the surface the affect that goes along with these thoughts. This is not just a cognitive process. These thoughts have a lot of affect associated with them, so a lot of strong anger, rage toward the self, and a lot of pain and sadness come up as well. And even when we have people pair up in adult education classes and say some of their negative thoughts to each other in the second person, the emotion starts to come to the surface.

Patients also find that they start off with the thoughts that they're aware of on the surface. As one therapist described it in our workshop in LA, “You read the ones you wrote down on the paper, and then you just sort of get into a flow with it. And then all this stuff comes out that I didn't even know I really thought.” And what quickly come are the very core beliefs that they have about themselves. Often people will do this and they'll say a number of statements, and then they'll pause. And if you just leave it alone and sit with it, what come next are much stronger core beliefs about the self. So it very quickly brings that material to the surface. Also, when people are verbalizing it in that way, we encourage them to say it with the full emotion associated with it, maybe to say it louder. Often there's a very derogatory, taunting, sarcastic kind of tone to these negative thoughts as they occur. We encourage them to say it with the full feeling behind it, maybe to say it louder. And often, as they're saying it, they take on the accent, the body posture, or the tone of voice of their parent. Their vocabulary changes. Sometimes they change into their language of origin. Someone whose parents came from Eastern Europe switches into their parents' accent. It's a very powerful process. So that's the first step in voice therapy.

The second step has to do with really looking at: where do these thoughts come from? And this is not a therapy where we interpret to the person. We don't say, "Oh, this must be your father's voice; this must be your mother's voice"—first of all, because we don't know; they're the expert in this. Secondly, it's much more powerful for them to make those connections.

Talking Back

RA: And how does that then shift from recognizing where the attitudes about the self come from to actually formulating new attitudes?
LF: I think it's a really important process, because that accountability of knowing where that came from really helps the person get some compassion for themselves. It's not that we want to blame parents. Often, if you really look at it, it came from your parent, and it came from their parent; it goes generations back. And sometimes it's their peers that taunted them, or their sibling who was particularly cruel to them.
RA: So the self-compassion is the first step. And the next?
LF: In starting to break with this way of thinking about oneself, I think it's a very important step. The next step really is answering back. And sometimes if they've gotten into it emotionally, the person will have a very strong feeling of wanting to get angry back at those voices. Often a lot of interesting material about what life looked like from their perspective as a child will come out in their answering back, as well. You get a real picture of what the parent looked like to them when they're verbalizing the voice, and what they experienced as a child in answering back.
VY: This sounds somewhat similar to what occurs in psychodrama, except in psychodrama, rather than saying voices that your parents said to you, you actually roleplay being the parent, or talking to your mother, and then being your mother talking back to yourself.
LF: Right. We try to separate it not so much as a conversation, but really to just have the person fully verbalize the negative thoughts first and go through all of what's there—and then, after making the connections about where they come from, really answering back, emotionally at times. An important part of the answering back, though, is just objectively stating what's true about yourself.
RA: And is that typically when the clients begin to learn how to self-regulate their emotions?
LF: It's a helpful piece of it—and starting to really say who they are and what's true about them. Seeing ourselves as divided is an unpleasant thought, and people often side with their voices, and side with the negative part, and that's their identity: "I really am stupid," or "I really am unattractive," or "I really am" whatever. And answering back can be very difficult.

Starving the Monster

RA: I have a personal question from watching one of the videos. I think that what I was seeing was the first stage—I was seeing a lot of speaking in the second person…
LF: The voices, yes.
RA: …and a lot of encouragement to stay in that voice, to keep speaking in that voice. I’m curious, and I imagine some of our readers might be curious, too: Does that shift in another stage? Does the encouragement for them to speak in the second person and to go to that place, does that shift as the client begins to build their own boundaries around becoming vulnerable and choosing to be vulnerable in that way?
LF: It can shift. The next step in Voice Therapy is to look at how these voices are affecting your life. What actions are you engaged in based on these thoughts? And the next step in Voice Therapy is to collaborate with the person on changing their behavior, to act in their own self-interest, and resist acting on the voices. I think that what happens initially—if they start to act in their own self-interest, or refrain from the self-destructive behaviors so they're acting against the voices—is the voices are going to get louder. That's the first thing that's going to happen. And I always educate people about that. First, they're going to get louder. It's almost like it’s this monster inside of you. Every time you give into it, you're feeding it, and the monster gets stronger and takes more and more control over your life. You want to starve the monster. But the monster's not going to be happy about that. It's going to throw a tantrum. It's going to get louder. And it's almost like a parent yelling at you to get you back into line.
RA: Do you find that the ferocity of the voice dies over time?
LF: If you can stay with that behavior and go through that anxiety, which you're going to feel, the monster is going to get weaker and weaker—almost like a parent that gets tired of nagging and sort of fades into the background.

And it doesn't mean you'll never have that thought again. Particularly, either at times of stress or, conversely, at times when you're acting the most different from the parent in positive ways—out of nowhere, some of those self-destructive thoughts will come up. Something can happen in the person's current-day life, a particular stressor. I think about this financial crisis we're currently facing: somebody who has underlying self-destructive thoughts but has come a long way from that in their life could get triggered back to feeling like a failure, for instance, because their stock went down or they lost all their retirement funds or they lost their job.
VY: In the Great Depression a lot of people jumped out buildings, but most people didn’t.
LF: Yes. And that's actually probably a misconception. According to the research that's been done on it, there were a couple of high-profile suicides you could really link to the Great Depression, but the suicide rate didn't go up dramatically at that time. It was rising slowly at that point and it continued to rise slowly after that, when things got better, too. But certainly when a person has underlying vulnerability… And then there are people that have what David Rudd would call fluid vulnerability for suicide. These are people who have usually had a lot of trauma in their early lives, and they can easily get triggered back into that state of being suicidal, even from things like seeing a method. He talks about a business executive who had had some very serious suicide attempts, but who was doing really well in his treatment and was feeling a lot better. But then he went on a business trip out of town, and the hotel room happened to have a balcony that was over a great height. He went out on it and he had the thought, "Just kill yourself, just jump." And he was like, "Oh, no, my treatment isn't working; I'm a failure." And Rudd said no, you are doing fine in therapy, but even just seeing a method can trigger somebody who has a lot of fluid vulnerability back into that vulnerability.
RA: That coping mechanism’s still alive.
LF: Yes. I would say that self-destructive, incorporated parent is still alive. And it's like somebody with a substance abuse habit who encounters one of their triggers: it can start a whole thought process that could go down that road.

The Impact on Therapists

VY: Have there been studies on what the effect is on therapists who have clients that have successfully committed suicide?
LF: There's not a whole lot of research. There are now support groups online for therapists who've lost clients to suicide. It can be really beneficial for therapists to talk to other therapists who've had that kind of loss. It happens to one in seven people in their training years. One in five clinical psychologists will lose a client to suicide in the course of their clinical career, one in two psychiatrists. And it's not because psychiatrists do a worse job; it's that they tend to see more disturbed patients.
VY: So what have you found in terms of effects it has on therapists?
LF: I think it's all the same kind of effects that there are on surviving family members. I think there's first the shock: it is hard to believe that somebody you care about could actually do this. And if you've been working with the person for a while, there’s often a lot of care and concern you've had for this person, and involvement with them. I think there is a lot of self-recrimination that people go through: “If only I'd done this. What if I had done that? I should have said this.” There's also a lot of anger, of wanting to blame it on somebody else, too. And that can be the family; it could be somebody else in the person's life who did something that wasn't helpful.

For a family member,
if somebody killed your loved one, you'd clearly be angry at the murderer. But when the murderer and the victim are the same person, it's very confusing.
if somebody killed your loved one, you'd clearly be angry at the murderer. But when the murderer and the victim are the same person, it's very confusing. And then there are often fears about, “What does this mean about me and my confidence? What does it mean about me? Could this happen to me?” Family members feel that a lot. Or, “Should I kill myself because I didn't do this or that?” And then there can be a slow process of resolving it, but I don't think it's something you can rush or say it should just be over. It's a process. It's worth getting help with that process, because it is really difficult on an emotional level to lose a client.
RA: And as you said earlier, and I’m sure the support groups would really help with this, but you can’t take responsibility when someone else does it.
LF: Ultimately, you can't. I think there's an idea that therapists can foresee these things with some kind of magic lenses. And about violence potential of clients, too—that somehow, magically, we can do that. I don't think that the research shows that we're necessarily very good at either of those things. But I think we can really be listening and we can be paying attention and take action to help prevent a client’s suicide. And when we have clients that feel like they're a burden, and when they feel like they don't fit in anywhere, and when they have that acquired ability to commit suicide because they do dissociate or they do disconnect from themselves, then you've got a high-risk mixture of somebody who's likely to actually do it.

What’s Up Next, Doc?

VY: Well, we’ve covered a lot of ground today.
RA: Yes.
LF: We have.
VY: And you’ve covered a lot of ground in your career. What’s currently interesting you most?
LF: We’re currently going to write a book about couple relationships—well, about individuals, about learning to love and develop yourself in your capacity to be close and vulnerable and giving in a relationship. People will pick it up because they want their partner to learn how to do all those things.

We have learned the form that these negative thought processes take in relationships—that the voice is really almost like a coach: coaching you to protect yourself, coaching you to take a certain stance toward your partner, not to be too giving, to take control of the situation and not be too vulnerable, to look at all your partner's potential flaws as opposed to focusing on their good traits. And this coaching sounds friendly to yourself—it sounds self-protective as if you're taking care of yourself—but it's often destroying your relationship. And it's really based on a posture of defending yourself and maintaining your original fantasy bond or connection with your parent, and being self-parenting; listening to this voice is really destructive to having the satisfaction and closeness and fulfillment you really could have in a relationship. It's often what destroys relationships. People who are perfectly good choices for one another often play this out in such a way as to destroy the relationship, or to make it a whole lot less satisfying than it could be even if they stay in it. We really want to try to help people with that. We have a couples group we're doing now with some young couples, trying to help them earlier on in their relationship life to be able to stick in there and take back the projections they make onto one another that really have to do with the people they grew up with and not with the person they're with.
It's amazing how much, as partners in relationships, we take on the projections of our partner and really feel like we are that way. And pretty soon we’re reenacting that person for our partner.
It's amazing how much, as partners in relationships, we take on the projections of our partner and really feel like we are that way. And pretty soon we’re reenacting that person for our partner.
VY: So projective identification doesn’t happen only in therapy.
LF: Unfortunately, no. Wouldn't that be nice if we had to walk into a therapist's office to do that? I think we do that with our partners, certainly, because, if you think about it, all the same emotions are triggered. If you look at the attachment research on how early attachments affect your later adult attachments, and if you look at just biochemically what's going on, it's the same kind of hormones and neurochemicals that are being released in long-term relationships as in parent-child bonding. All of those neural pathways get triggered in a close relationship where we want to make ourselves vulnerable, but we're very afraid to make ourselves vulnerable, too. But if people can think about these thoughts that they have, which seem self-protective, as a coach that's actually out to destroy your relationship, not to help you, I think it can be really helpful for people to start to catch on to what they're doing. I think it's a tool that therapists could use to help couples understand themselves better, too, and understand what's going on in the relationship.
VY: Speaking of attachment, it’s time for us to detach.
LF: Yes. I will let you detach. I will go teach.
RA: Thank you so much.
VY: Or as they say in this field, “Our time is up.”
LF: Yes, our time is up, right.

Stephanie Brown on Treating Addictions in Psychotherapy

What happens when people stop drinking?

Randall C. Wyatt: How did you first get into working with people with all different kinds of addictions?
Stephanie Brown: Oh my (laughs), you jump right into it. Okay (sighs). I got in because of my own personal experience with alcoholism and recovery. I come from a family with two alcoholic parents. So I was born and bred in a family of alcoholism and therefore extremely interested in the subject because of my own personal experience.
RW: What experience was that?
SB: I grew up thinking about my parents' alcoholism and worried about them. As a teenager and then as a young adult I got to live out my own addiction and eventually entered recovery. Then I really looked around and asked what's going to happen to me now that I've stopped drinking. I began asking research questions when I was in graduate school in the early 1970s and in my doctoral thesis I asked questions about what happens to the individual who stops drinking.

RW: What kinds of questions did you ask?
SB: I asked: What happens to the children of alcoholics? How do we understand their development? Living with addiction, growing up with addiction, what happens to their normal developmental tasks? What's the impact on them of growing up with addicted parents? What is it like to be psychologically addicted? And then finally, I asked, what's the process of recovery for the alcoholic family, the addicted family, the one in which the alcoholic parent stops drinking?

I entered my own recovery in 1971. I've been very interested in the developmental process that occurs for people once they stop drinking. I developed the Dynamic Model of Active Addiction and Recovery through my doctoral research, which was finished in 1977.
RW: We’ll get back to that in a minute. When you started looking at your own addiction, did that affect your relationship with your parents and their drinking?
SB: Yes, it did. My recovery certainly had an impact on my relationship with my family. It was perhaps the caliber of a seven-point earthquake! There was a breach in my relationship with my family from that point on. I entered my own recovery when my family was still drinking and both my parents were severe alcoholics. My brother was an alcoholic. He's not drinking any longer but both of my parents died drinking. Not quite true. My mother stopped drinking in 2000 when she was 86 years old.
RW: Did you tell them you were going to stop drinking?
SB: When I stopped drinking, I told them what I was doing. They were supportive of me, which was really quite wonderful, especially my father. I think he knew something intuitively and he couldn't articulate it consciously; he knew, even though he couldn't get it for himself.

But what I felt was this radical breach because alcoholism for me and my family was the glue of attachment. It was the umbilical cord for my relationships with all of my family and extended family members. I felt like an orphan and I was treated like one.
But what I felt was this radical breach because alcoholism for me and my family was the glue of attachment. It was the umbilical cord for my relationships with all of my family and extended family members. I felt like an orphan and I was treated like one. Nobody knew how to relate to me since I was no longer drinking; it was the currency of relationship exchange; everybody drank together. Emotionally I was still connected with my parents and cared deeply about them but the bond was severed through my choice to be abstinent. My father died suddenly when I had nine months of abstinence; it was a real trauma for me, the loss of my father.
RW: How difficult it must have been to stop in a system that reinforces drinking and doesn’t encourage stopping.
SB: There was never any acknowledgement in the family that anyone else had any problem with alcohol;
I entered a different reality when I recognized my own alcoholism. Then, my entire world and my reality, the way I looked at myself and others, changed.
I entered a different reality when I recognized my own alcoholism. Then, my entire world and my reality, the way I looked at myself and others, changed. Everything I've written about for all these years has a very central focus on reality and what is reality. In the actively addicted person and family, there is such a distortion about what's real.

The Addiction Accounting System

RW: What do you mean by distortion of reality?
SB: There's a distortion about what's real in relationship to drinking, and therefore everything else. The family needs to protect the drinking in order to be able to maintain and sustain it. So when I stepped out of my family and determined that I was an alcoholic, I entered a different reality and have lived in a different reality for 36 years, in the sense that I could love my parents, I always did, but not share their world anymore. I needed to make that breach in order to survive and progress with my own development and my recovery.
Victor Yalom: You said that by implicitly supporting your abstinence your father had some awareness that his drinking and the family’s drinking was a problem.
Stephanie Brown: I did conclude that. It was never verbalized. I could indeed feel the connection with him and feel the support and later he encouraged me to seek support, to seek help and to stay close to my sobriety support networks.
VY: I think that’s often something that’s confusing to most therapists who don’t come from a background of addiction – that there’s a different reality for alcoholics. Like your father who had some awareness that he had a problem yet did not change.
SB: Correct. That's correct.
VY: So it’s not an either/or situation in the addicted person’s mind.
SB: Oh, that's right. Actually, for years I've taught the concept of "doubling" where you live with two different realities. Doubling is different than denial where you block out one part of reality. Here you live with opposing realities. "I have a problem with alcohol and I don't have a problem with alcohol. I'm fine living with both those identities and realities." And that's what makes working, living, and relating to people who are addicts or alcoholics crazy-making! It's crazy-making because the alcoholic is simultaneously saying,
"Yeah, I probably drink too much, but I'm not out of control and I don't have a problem with drinking."
"Yeah, I probably drink too much, but I'm not out of control and I don't have a problem with drinking."
RW: It seems like there’s a tendency of alcoholics and drug addicts to say, “Well, I have somewhat of a problem, I can handle it, and I’m not an addict since others are worse than me,” and there usually is somebody worse.
SB: Right. I think of it as an accounting system. Every alcoholic has a definition of what it would mean for me to think, "I am an alcoholic."
RW: For example?
SB: For example, an alcoholic is somebody who drinks before five o'clock in the afternoon; many people have that definition to this day. Well, I don't drink before five so therefore I'm not an alcoholic. There are others who say, "Well you know, an addict is somebody who gets admitted to the psych ward; I've never been admitted to the psych ward, I'm perfectly sane so I'm not an addict!"
RW: “I drink beer but I don’t drink hard stuff.” Or, “I drink wine only.”
SB: Exactly! Yet almost every single person on the planet of a certain age knows what an alcoholic or an addict is. Every year I teach elementary age kids and eighth graders and I say,
"What's an addict?" All the kids' hands go up and they say, "You've lost control, and you can't stop." They know what craving is, everybody knows what's an alcoholic and it's "not what I do."
"What's an addict?" All the kids' hands go up and they say, "You've lost control, and you can't stop." They know what craving is, everybody knows what's an alcoholic and it's "not what I do."
RW: What else do the kids say? Sometimes kids speak the truth in simplest terms.
SB: Yes, the kids say, "You can't stop, you've lost control, you've got to do it over and over again." I ask them, "Who here has had a craving?" All the hands go up. "I crave Coke (the soda) and chocolate." I ask them, "What does craving feel like?" and they say, "It hurts." I say, "Is craving painful?" "Yes! It hurts physically because you've got to have it."
RW: And even though you know the alcohol and the drug is messing up your life, ruining your relationships, and hurting your job, you keep doing it.
SB: Correct. You keep doing it. What is, is! You really don't want to do it but you have to do it and you tell yourself that you like it. You tell yourself that you're choosing to drink, that it tastes good, that you love it, that the drugs help you. You tell yourself that it makes you funnier, wittier, sexier, more charming; they keep you going. You keep reminding yourself and telling yourself that you don't have a problem, that you can stop any time, when the reality is that you can't. That's what addiction is.
RW: It’s really not as complicated as we often make it out to be.
SB: And everybody knows it and everybody will tell you why it doesn't apply to them.
In my technical definition, the addicted person denies that he or she has any problem with a substance and then explains why he or she needs it in a way that allows them to maintain the use. You deny, you explain, so that you can maintain using, so you don't have to stop.
In my technical definition, the addicted person denies that he or she has any problem with a substance and then explains why he or she needs it in a way that allows them to maintain the use. You deny, you explain, so that you can maintain using, so you don't have to stop.
VY: So for you, that’s the hallmark of an addict, the loss of control.
SB: The hallmark is the loss of control.

Binge Drinking

VY: So how do you think about situations like college binge drinking? I don’t know the figures but a high percentage of college students go through a period where they exhibit a loss of control of their drinking and it causes problems for them. So by that definition, these people are addicts and alcoholics and yet most of them don’t become chronic alcoholics.
SB: What we're seeing is epidemic numbers of college kids and younger who are out of control.
In many young people, there is no inner mechanism in place to moderate their drinking and they're ending up with the most severe advanced consequences of alcoholism at a young age.
In many young people, there is no inner mechanism in place to moderate their drinking and they're ending up with the most severe advanced consequences of alcoholism at a young age. Not only are they binge drinking but there's so many other drugs on board that tend to create more severe consequences sooner.
VY: But not for all of them.
SB: Not for all of them, correct. So what happened? Why is that?
VY: Well, I guess that is my challenge to you. It seems that in some recovery circles the idea is once someone is out of control with drinking he is an alcoholic. And once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. But I’ve certainly worked with a lot of patients who report to me that in their college, or younger days, they were drinking excessively. They were binge drinking and they may have frequently drank to an excess in their early 20’s, but they’ve grown up in their late 30’s and 40’s and aren’t alcoholics.
SB: Yep, I've seen it too and I think there are a number of ways to explain it. Some people merge with what others are doing around them, into the social norm like eating, smoking, drinking or drugging and the situation triggers them.
RW: It’s a social thing for some people.
SB: Yes, but it's as if it's a social merger phenomenon. There are patterns, in relationships you watch this, where a partner will say "Well, I never used to drink at all but my partner was drinking and I started drinking to keep up. It was going to be drinking with him or get a divorce." So that person becomes addicted out of a need to join with the other. Yet, when the one partner dies of addiction and the survivor stops drinking then that points to it being more social. But just the same they were drinking or using addictively that entire time.
RW: It seems that there is a gradation from a person who is a social drinker, a problem drinker and then an alcoholic. Some kind of 1 to 10 scale. Do you have any thought processes like that?
SB: By the time they are seeking help for it, by the time it's been identified as a problem they are way over the line. Are there gradations? Yes, there are beginning, middle, and late advanced stages and phases and signs and symptoms of alcoholism that have been identified for 75 years. Yet, a lot of what I might be able to identify as a problem with alcohol, most people would say, "That's not a problem, everybody drinks that way."
RW: What is an okay way in your mind for people to drink alcohol that would not be considered alcoholism?
SB: For me, well again, alcoholism is the loss of control so I am not so much into the exact number of drinks as a determining factor. Rather, I look for the signs of people becoming out of control. I look at what people's relationship is to alcohol. Alcoholism is a key primary attachment to the drug, more important than any other attachment the individual has.

If you watch a person's focus on alcohol they turn psychologically, emotionally towards the attachment to the substance. People talk about alcohol as their best friend; people take it to bed with them. They have their primary relationship with their bottle, with their Jack Daniels, with their Jim Beam. Alcohol becomes the central organizing principle for the alcoholic and then it operates in the same way for the family or friends. Getting it, having it, drinking together, sharing it, stopping it, starting it again, and so on.
RW: It’s a way of life.
SB: It's a way of life.
Sometimes you can recognize alcoholics by watching their attachment to the glass in hand. Then it's possible to identify alcoholism before some of the more obvious signs become visible.
Sometimes you can recognize alcoholics by watching their attachment to the glass in hand. Then it's possible to identify alcoholism before some of the more obvious signs become visible.
VY: We live in the Bay Area where wine is such a big thing. How would you distinguish between someone who really loves and appreciates wine from an alcoholic? There are certainly a lot of wine connoisseurs who enjoy wine that are not alcoholics.
SB: That I believe is true, it may be true. What I find, actually, is that sometimes being a wine connoisseur is a wonderful cover for alcoholism. Many people who love wine and have wine collections come in to my office. Do I say that if you're a wine connoisseur, it means you are an alcoholic? Absolutely not! But there is the strong attachment to the alcohol and organizing your life around tasting and having alcohol and socializing with alcohol. So you're going to have a much higher likelihood statistically of alcoholism in a group that is organized around it.

Addiction to Drugs, Prescription Meds, Food, Gambling

RW: I want to ask a few questions about drugs. In what way are drug addictions similar? Take speed for example, or heroin. Do you think of yourself as treating all addictions in a similar manner, or do your ideas just apply to alcoholism?
SB: Everything, absolutely everything. All addictions. In fact, I don't use the word alcoholism as much anymore as I do addiction.
Addiction is substances, behaviors, and relationships. The addiction is behavioral addiction, the loss of control in relation to substances of all kinds.
Addiction is substances, behaviors, and relationships. The addiction is behavioral addiction, the loss of control in relation to substances of all kinds. Legal, which is alcohol or prescription medications; illegal, which are many others such as speed, cocaine, heroine, pot. Legal and illegal drugs can be used together, increasing the dangers of overdose.

Prescription medication is both legal and illegal actually because you're supposed to have prescriptions for them but they are available illegally on the streets, over the internet, on school and college campuses. For many people, OxyContin and Vicodin have become drugs of choice. People are ending up in emergency rooms with dangerous overdoses.

Tobacco is an addictive substance. The behaviors: gambling, out of control sexual behaviors, specific kinds of sexual addictions to pornography and the internet are all kinds of loss of control.
RW: An excessive psychological attachment to these things is an addiction, which is like a relationship. And it becomes bigger than the other things in life.
SB: Correct. It becomes bigger than the other things. You've got to have it. You can't stop. It's repetitive, it becomes a compulsion that drives it and you repeatedly seek the substance or the behavior, the gambling, the pornography, the sexuality, the food and eating behavior that gets out of control. At a certain point addiction becomes almost normative in the culture.

Sentenced Treatments and Addiction Outcomes

RW: Recently California passed a law that said people with drug and alcohol related legal problems can, should, or must undergo treatment before going to jail; do you think that has an impact for the good?
SB: I love intervention at the judicial system level that first focuses on treatment. I think that's excellent, it's outstanding. As far as I know, the programs have been very successful in these first five to eight years. You especially see success when the Justices are on board and have educated themselves. Some of the Justices in Santa Clara County are phenomenal. They're intervening right there with the addicted person and the family and children.
VY: How are the outcomes looking?
SB: In the beginnings of this it would be its own revolving door and the treatment was not particularly informed or sophisticated. It's gotten better. The longer the treatment is the better the outcomes. You're seeing very good outcomes now.
RW: You used the word “sentenced” to treatment but usually in psychologically based therapy we think if the person is involuntary and isn’t motivated, it’s not going to be very useful. How does that affect treatment of substance abusers?
SB: I used to take a stance against anybody being sentenced to anything, but now I'm a convert. I have been converted.
RW: You have had a conversion experience!
SB: Well, because our culture is out of control. They're coming in every door, usually massive numbers of young people coming in through juvenile justice. But so many more people are having criminal contact first because of illegal drug use or the damage and consequences of use. I see that for many people it's the sentencing that speaks the loudest, that carries the biggest stick. If the consequences and the sentences are severe enough, this gives people time in treatment to find their own motivation, and many people do.

More people are coming in my door who are out of control. They're dominated by impulse disorders and they're not functional anymore. Their lives are falling apart and they are trying to get their lives back.
VY: What’s an example of that?
SB: Their everyday lives are so dominated by needing to drink, needing to use drugs, where the compulsion is overwhelming to them 24 hours a day. They may still be working in good jobs but they are careening to the bottom much faster than we've ever seen before. They've got stimulants on board, depressants on board. They have so many medications and they are often prescribed. They're using alcohol and they're out of control. I see people in their 40's, 50's who have up to eight medications and they're drinking. They've got medications to wake them up in the morning, medications to go to sleep at night.
These are people who have lost any sense of who they are apart from their addiction. They have lost any kind of a center of their self that is not connected to their compulsive and impulsive driven behavior.
These are people who have lost any sense of who they are apart from their addiction. They have lost any kind of a center of their self that is not connected to their compulsive and impulsive driven behavior. It's a phenomenon.

What do therapists who don’t specialize in addictions need to know?

VY: As a psychologist and a therapist who doesn’t specialize in addictions, just hearing that sounds overwhelming. What are some basic things that therapists who don’t specialize in addictions need to know?
SB: Well to start, I don't use the term "problem drinking." People often use the term "problem drinking" as the biggest defense. Many therapists who are undereducated about addiction actually collude with their clients. If therapists take a drinking history they will often conclude, "Oh, this person is a social drinker. This person doesn't have a problem with alcohol, this person drinks like I do, maybe a bit too much and needs to cut back some."
There's a long-standing joke in the therapist community that the definition of an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than I do.
There's a long-standing joke in the therapist community that the definition of an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than I do.

The therapist says, "Okay, how much do you drink?" and the person says, "I have a couple of glasses of wine a day." I always put down a "couple of glasses of wine" in quotes because that is everybody's favorite quote.
RW: Or everybody says “a couple of beers,” “couple of martinis” and so on. But one has to distinguish between those that really have a couple and those that have more.
SB: Certainly, but let me give an example. A patient comes in and says, "I have a couple of glasses of wine." I ask, "When do you have that?", and they say "With dinner, I have it to wind down, to relax." The typical therapist makes a note on alcohol, "no problem."

Does the therapist say, "Tell me some more about how you drink, tell me some more about these couple of glasses of wine, how do you think about it, what's been your history with alcohol" and begin to use that first question as a starting point for a much more in-depth assessment of attachment? What you want to find is not just how much the person drinks but what their relationship to alcohol is.
VY: Can you say more about what you mean by attachment to alcohol and how one can discern this in therapy?
SB: Very few therapists will understand that you're looking for the attachment rather than the amounts. What you're going to be listening for are the ways in which the individual focuses on alcohol day to day. Let me play it out here in a conversation so you can see what I mean.

A client comes in one day saying "Jeez, I'm late today" or "I was late to work."

Therapist: Well what made you late?
Client: Oh, I overslept.
Therapist: How come you did that? Is that typical for you?
Client: Well I had a big weekend.
Therapist: Oh, what happened?
Client: Well we partied.

But don't stop there!

Therapist: Tell me more, what do you mean partied?

And later, Therapist: Give me a sense of a day in your life.

Now watch as the addicted client will eventually begin to include alcohol or drugs or whatever their addiction is in their daily activities and way of thinking. People who have an attachment to alcohol tell stories to friends and families about their lives that include alcohol, hoping to see if anyone wants to join them.
VY: Okay, let’s say the person comes in and it’s clear that they have a problem with drinking. There’s enough data that it can’t be hidden. What are some other common mistakes or deficiencies therapists have when moving forward in treatment with addicted clients?
SB: Therapists tend to think, "If I recognize that this person has a problem with alcohol or other substances, that this person is alcoholic then I have to do something about it and I don't have a clue what I as a therapist can do." Most therapists come to me for consultation asking, "How do I make this person stop drinking?" That's the wrong question, the codependence stance, and it makes the therapist want to turn away from the addiction or person. What if you say to this person, "I think you have a problem with alcohol. What do you think about that?" and the person may say, "Well, I'm not coming back here anymore, thank you very much."

So we'll collude together here, agreeing that there is no problem with alcohol and we'll have a very fine psychotherapy and avoid the tough issues.
VY: Again, say we have gotten past this point. The therapist is savvy enough to see that the patient does have a problem but does not have a great deal of training in addictions. Obviously you can’t do an in-depth training in this interview, but what are some pointers that you can share?
SB: On a similar thread, therapists have mistaken beliefs about what the role of the therapist is, the responsibility, or the terrible word, the obligation. And most of the errors occur around that mistaken view that that you're supposed to do something about it once it's diagnosed. You do want to have an awareness about the addiction in the room together. And yet you don't have to make the person do anything.

The therapist's job is to keep the focus on the reality of the addiction and what the person wants to do about it.
The therapist's job is to keep the focus on the reality of the addiction and what the person wants to do about it. How your patient feels about it, sees it, what that person wants to do about it, what is most frightening. Often times a person's family history comes in at this point: "Well, I hate to see myself as an alcoholic, I don't want to be one, and I don't want to go to AA. I'm not going to stop drinking because that would make me like my father."
VY: Okay, then how does the therapist work with this type of client? What do we do when resistance to change inevitably comes up?
SB: In good intensive psychodynamic therapy mode you notice resistance at many levels. The client may resist the identity of being an alcoholic: "Okay I know I have a problem with alcohol, I should stop, I don't want to. I don't want to be an alcoholic." People show resistance to action: "I know I am an alcoholic, but I'm not ready to do anything about it." Then there is the resistance to changing behavior: "Okay, I'm an alcoholic but I'll take care of it myself, and I don't really want to stop, I want to be able to drink now and then." Getting through these resistances one by one to get to abstinence is a process that may take some time in psychotherapy. Now, there are many people, particularly in San Francisco, at the heart of Harm Reduction School who think about this differently.

Brown on Harm Reduction Recovery Models

RW: What are your thoughts on Harm Reduction models of recovery?
SB: Harm Reduction is great; it is an intervention that works in the active addiction stage. My model is the Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery – that is recovery based on abstinence and abstinence only. So my theories are based on people who belong to AA, who have total abstinence and total sobriety, who are not drinking or using anything, so it's a much longer developmental process. Harm Reduction is an intervention in active addiction that is helping people who are continuing to use. It's a completely different theory, a completely different treatment and it can also be incredibly useful and helpful to people.
RW: Can you describe, basically, what Harm Reduction is, since it has become much more popular than in past years in the recovery world?
SB: Harm Reduction is intervening in a way to help people, with all kinds of drugs including alcohol, but it started with methadone maintenance. It aims to help somebody change the level of substance use but not become totally abstinent. You're going to substitute something else that will reduce the harm and enable people to function, to perhaps get off the street, to be in better communities. Many people who have been in Harm Reduction have also used 12-steps, which is inconsistent—they are contradictory, but that is the real world people live in. They are using less of their substances. In a sense, they are reducing the harm; they're reducing the self-destruction, the harm to themselves and others. It's really a terrific help on the way for many people to full abstinence and a 12-step recovery, yet for many people it's not on the way.
RW: It’s where they’re going to stay.
SB: It's where they're going to stay but it's helpful and how could I be against it? I absolutely am an advocate for all of the different kinds of recovery. Now, my definition of recovery includes the 12-step recovery model.
RW: It’s my sense that Harm Reduction could be of use to help some people become social drinkers or less self-destructive drinkers. But for others with chronic alcoholism, in my experience, the Harm Reduction route is just tantamount to pouring the drink for them. It seems like for some people that are in the chronic stage of addiction, their health is affected and their brains are deteriorating, or their life is just so messed up – it just seems like a cycle. It seems like part of that game of addiction.
SB: Well, that's the dilemma for the helper and the person seeking help for anybody at any time in any model.
RW: Good point. That can apply for Harm Reduction or your abstinence model in the real world of people with complex lives.
SB: Absolutely. And the helper at any point should be asking "Am I helping, am I contributing?" In my model, the psychotherapist is always asking, "Am I colluding with the denial here, should I be more challenging?" The therapist is always in the position of not knowing.
We don't get to know whether our particular point of view and our particular intervention is going to be beneficial or not for the person in front of us. We just don't get to know in the moment.
We don't get to know whether our particular point of view and our particular intervention is going to be beneficial or not for the person in front of us. We just don't get to know in the moment. So we have to be maintaining integrity by being willing to ask, "For this particular person, am I helping or harming them?"

The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery

RW: Well said, let’s go to AA now. For you, psychotherapy with an addict seems to naturally involve a recommendation for the patient to be in an AA or a 12-step group of some kind. Can you explain the rationale for that?
SB: My developmental model is a theory of how people change, what happens to people who belong to a 12-step program.
VY: It would be very helpful to briefly state what your developmental model is.
SB:
The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery is a model of transformational change. It's a model of radical change.
The Developmental Model of Addiction and Recovery is a model of transformational change. It's a model of radical change. The individual comes to recognize "I have lost control," and that recognition is at a deep level. We can call it an emotional level; we can call it a psychological level of knowledge, an epistemological sense of knowing the self or spiritual experience. The person comes to know, "I have lost control" and simultaneously if all goes well, the person says, "I'm an alcoholic."

If those experiences happen, the person may very well be moved via that experience into asking for help. It is the asking for help, reaching outside of the self, no longer saying "I've got to get control of myself" or "I've got to learn how to drink."
The person says, "I can't stop, I need help." It is in the actions of accepting loss of control – I can't stop – and then reaching out for help that the change process begins.
The person says, "I can't stop, I need help." It is in the actions of accepting loss of control – I can't stop – and then reaching out for help that the change process begins.
RW: Is this what people refer to as hitting bottom, or surrendering somehow?
SB: That's the first experience – to hit bottom, to surrender, and to reach outside the self. So people seek help, they go to 12-steps. They then shift their object attachment from alcohol to a 12-step group, or to a treatment or mission- based center. They shift to whatever substitute will take the place so that they are still taking in, they still have an attachment. They begin to go to meetings; they'll get a sponsor. They begin to take in the new object replacement for the substance.
VY: Why do you think this shift is so crucial to recovery?
SB: It is important so that you are not asked to give up your substance for nothing. The recognition is that you need a substitute attachment, so you get it. When you reach out for help, you're going to reach out for a new object that represents recovery. It represents abstinence in the 12-step model and so the process of transformational change is under way with the shifted object attachment and the substitute new behaviors. What are the new behaviors? Going to the meetings, reaching for the phone, being in action to substitute something that represents recovery.
RW: How much does it matter what that attachment is?
SB: I now see a lot of people going into treatment for addiction who are taking so many legal medications. They're making their object attachment to the medication, instead of, "I have hit bottom. I am attaching to recovery." These people are struggling in AA and NA. They're sitting at meetings thinking about, "How's my level of medications, should I up my antidepressants?" They're talking all about the new object attachment to their medications.
RW: Well, I recall that in years past, many in psychology and psychiatry and the AA world would say, “Keep psychiatric drug use in recovery to a minimum and only when necessary,” and it used to be discouraged and used only in particular cases with caution. Now only-when-necessary seems to be almost-all-the-time.
SB: The addiction treatment centers by and large have been wary of medications from day one. And often when somebody enters a formal treatment center, mostly private, they will be taken off as many of the psychiatric medications as possible. Most patients entering any addiction treatments are already on multiple medications. They've been prescribed by psychiatrists, by internists, by family physicians. That's what we see as normative.
RW: Why do they do take patients off their medications in treatment centers?
SB: Because they want to see who's there in the person. They want to start with removal of all mind-altering substances. Then the person will be taken through a medical detoxification, which may or may not include some detoxification medicines. And they go through the assessment process and may be prescribed medication at that point if indicated.

Understanding Therapist Impatience and Frustration in Addiction Work

RW: Most therapists get very impatient with a patient who goes back and forth between quitting alcohol or drugs and using again. How does the psychodynamic, existential or CBT therapist with some training in addictions deal with the impatience and frustration inherent in this work?
SB: I think that, as you said, many therapists get impatient with addictions. This is one of the reasons why therapists would often rather not see people with addictions. Therapists think they have to do something once they diagnose it, but also therapists many times really look down on addicts for their lack of self control or they may simply not understand what is happening.

Therapists, then, may tend to get impatient because they really do sense that the client is shining them on, and it's true that many clients will be in denial and distort and deceive. The therapist needs to look at what is going on in the patient and not act it out in a countertransferential way.
A therapist will get mad at the addicted patient, confront the patient, yell at the patient; tell them to stop doing it, which is an over-reactive countertransferenece response.
A therapist will get mad at the addicted patient, confront the patient, yell at the patient; tell them to stop doing it, which is an over-reactive countertransferenece response.
VY: What should they say instead?
SB: I might say something like, "I can hear your deception. Can you hear it? I hear it day after day. You want me to agree with you. I don't agree. You want me to say, " Yeah there's no problem here.' I hear the problem. You've got so much invested in not seeing what you're doing. You're drinking yourself to death. I'm wondering, what's in the way of your getting this? That you're going to want to do something?" And then I might say, "Here we are looking at it and you don't want to see it; what's it going to take for you to want to deal with it?"
RW: Where is the therapeutic alliance in all of this? How does that play into the work?
SB: This is a therapist who is confronting within a therapeutic alliance. "I am not going to collude with you. I am going to confront you." I'm not going to bash your head in and scream at you, but I am going to challenge you. I'm going to tell you that I'm impatient. I sit here and I hear you being so self-destructive and I hear your deception, your distortion and you want me to go along with it? Can't do it! Not getting on board with it. I'm worried about you. What's it going to take?"

And that's the way in which the therapist maintains the alliance while working with someone who is conning and deceptive and manipulative. If the patient keeps coming to you, that person wants help. Let me add, there are many people who are not conning, deceptive or manipulative. Many people want help and can't see clearly what is wrong and what to do. They need support for seeing clearly and guidance in the next steps. They have to feel safe enough to recognize their loss of control.
RW: So the therapist is confronting by coming alongside the patient by giving the message that “I am for you, yet I’m not going to go along with your self-destructive behaviors and self deceptions and say nothing.”
SB: Exactly. With many people you're dealing with resistance and defense. And the defenses are the thinking distortions, the self-deceptions. The way a person with an addiction says, "I don't have a problem with alcohol, I can stop any time I want, I don't drink before five, and I'm perfectly fine. My problem is my wife, my problem is you, and every time I come in here and every week you want to talk about alcohol. You're my problem."

And I say, "Yep, I'm your problem alright because I'm going to keep talking about alcohol. I think it's your main attachment. I think it's the center of your life. You don't want to see it that way, but I hear it and I see it."

Psychotherapy, AA and Spirituality

RW: Do you think psychotherapy alone can help the person get out of a strong addiction to drugs or alcohol? Or do you think they need a group, AA, or something like that to get attached to?
SB: Therapy alone can help a person make a determination.
Psychotherapy is in fact terrific because people will come through the therapy office door sooner than they will go to AA or go to treatment.
Psychotherapy is in fact terrific because people will come through the therapy office door sooner than they will go to AA or go to treatment. All therapists should be able to help that person coming in the door recognize, "I am an alcoholic. I've got a problem with alcohol." Therapy alone can be incredibly helpful to the person making the decision to stop. I recommend to all people that they use AA, Al-Anon, NA, all the 12-step programs.
RW: What do you value so much about AA?
SB: AA has something that psychotherapy doesn't have. It has the most fundamental shared experience of equality. I think there is nothing like AA for an experience of an equal and shared humanity.
RW: So more in real or everyday terms, what does that mean?
SB: When you come to AA, you find you are an alcoholic amongst other alcoholics, addicts. There is no hierarchy, there's no governing force, there's nothing. You walk in the door and you belong, you walk out the door, you come back. You can attend meetings worldwide. And within that framework, equality is absolutely astounding.

In psychotherapy it's an unequal structure. It's not equal, we're not peers. In any kind of help-seeking framework with the exception of peer counseling there is still the helper and the "helpee", as I call it. Within AA, every single person sitting together is both a helper and a helpee at the same time. You get to experience yourself as being the dependent person needing the help of others and the one who shares your experiences to help others in the same moment.
RW: Now, a lot of people object to AA and they have their reasons; “It’s too public, it’s too religious,” and so forth. But also it seems a certain group of people don’t do well in a group setting like AA where it’s so uncomfortable for them; not just resistance, but they say it doesn’t meet with their mindset, their worldview, or their way of relating in the world. What about those people who it doesn’t seem to work with?
SB: Well, you know what, you said it like most people who are skeptics say it. I hear researchers say, "Well, AA or 12-steps doesn't work for everyone." I want to say, "Wait a minute, it is possible." AA doesn't see itself as trying to be a fit for everyone. It's not AA's job. AA sits there waiting for people to find a way to let AA work for them and it does in fact. It's everywhere in the world. AA is working who can become engaged in allowing it to work for them. So I ask people to reframe the way they think about it. What's in the way for this particular person? What is the individual's resistance to AA?

I tell patients that people are not standing in line waiting to get into AA. No one wants to go to AA. So then how is it that millions of people have found a way to let AA work for them? It's in the individual; it's not in AA.
RW: I would agree with you, I could say much the same thing to that resistance. But at the same time, I think certain people who go to AA hear other people’s stories and it triggers their wanting to drink. If they don’t go, then it doesn’t trigger it. The therapist would be wise to notice these triggers.
SB: I let people know that there are all kinds of meetings and some that just work on steps where no stories are told. I teach people how to use AA. I suggest that everyone has difficulties. I suggest that they go to a meeting, sit by the door and if they can't tolerate it, they should leave. But then come back. It's like desensitization. Come back again and leave when you can't tolerate it. It's recommended that you come in early and stay after because that's how people start to talk to one another. But if you can't do that, don't do it. And as you're sitting in a meeting, listen for what fits for you. Pick out the people that you liked, what they said and don't take anything else. And then go to many different meetings and you're going to sit in a meeting and say, "Well this one feels right," or "I really like that person but I didn't like that meeting."
RW: Some people object to the question of a higher power, some people object because there is a God. And some people say the opposite, that they feel others demean God by saying it’s a door handle, you must have heard that one, but I doubt many people see their God as a door handle.
SB: Yeah, I have heard that one. Let me give you the theoretical view about transformational change and why and how it works. Let me step back a bit to make this clearer.

I define spirituality as dependence; that's what it is to me within the framework of thinking about addiction and recovery. Spirituality is dependence, and the god of the addict is the alcohol. The dependence, the spirituality, is invested in the attachment to alcohol. When that person comes in to AA, the dependency, the attachment is changed to the meeting, to a new sponsor, to the people of AA, to the ideas espoused in AA, to the books and readings. The dependence is transferred to a new object representing recovery.
RW: How does a person’s sense of attachment and spirituality change over the course of their recovery in this model?
SB: Dependency is gratified; spirituality is gratified for you right away. Over the course of the stages of recovery the longer people are in recovery, they move in their development through concrete object representation into much more abstract substituted object relationships. Through working with the steps, perhaps through being in psychotherapy, a lot of people in recovery begin to develop a more abstract concept about what a higher power will mean for them.

So that dependency moves over time, developmentally from concrete object representation to abstract concepts of God. And it's a developmental process.
AA based recovery is organized by the individual at a pace that works for them. All under the control of the alcoholic in recovery. There is no defined God, there is no set scripture, and there is no theology in AA.
AA based recovery is organized by the individual at a pace that works for them. All under the control of the alcoholic in recovery. There is no defined God, there is no set scripture, and there is no theology in AA. There is nothing but the concept of God as the person defines God. It is paradoxically the most control and autonomy possible for most people in the world.
RW: “Academic psychology has believed in the power of self, the power of the ego, the will.”
SB: In terms of the profession of psychology and psychotherapy and spirituality, Freud said religion is an illusion, Skinner and Ellis said belief in a higher power is a neurosis and irrational, and humanists basically said that humans are God in full control of their own destiny, though there is some room for a person to freely choose to believe or not believe. Basically, the three major psychologies have traditionally been highly critical of spirituality and criticize any traditional semblance of a higher power in general.
RW: In terms of the profession of psychology and psychotherapy and spirituality, Freud said religion is an illusion, Skinner and Ellis said belief in a higher power is a neurosis and irrational, and humanists basically said that humans are God in full control of their own destiny, though there is some room for a person to freely choose to believe or not believe. Basically, the three major psychologies have traditionally been highly critical of spirituality and criticize any traditional semblance of a higher power in general.
SB: Absolutely, psychology as a mental health discipline has been more anti-AA than any discipline across the board for the last 50 years. Psychology in the past has worked very hard to disprove and to challenge AA. Nowadays many more of the academic people would like to understand AA and bridge the gap. In my opinion, academic psychology has believed in the power of elevating the ego, elevating the self, the human, to be the ultimate source of power.
RW: Beyond other people, community, and family, let alone spirituality or a God.
SB: Academic psychology has believed in the power of self, the power of the ego, the will. And therefore any human being ought to be able to control their own drinking and that's what academic psychology and psychotherapy have supported.
I look at the addict as the ultimate leveler for all of humanity because addiction says we have limits. Psychology basically has said that human beings don't have any limits. The God of academic psychology is the self.
I look at the addict as the ultimate leveler for all of humanity because addiction says we have limits. Psychology basically has said that human beings don't have any limits. The God of academic psychology is the self.
RW: “You are the captain of your own ship. Chart your own course. Do it yourself with will power.” It is as if therapists and psychologists become do-it-yourself motivational speakers.
SB: That's right! And we will teach you how. So there is a terrific egotism that has grown up within psychology that believes in the elevation of the self and ego as the ultimate change agent.

Integrating Addiction and Psychotherapeutic Work

VY: Well one nice thing about your work and an important one is that you try to bridge the gap between psychologists, psychotherapists and the 12-step world. And you have offered some ideas about what therapists can learn from the addictions world. In that regard, I think it’s also fair to say that a lot of addiction counselors in treatment programs have not taken advantage of the teachings and skills that psychotherapists have developed. What do you think addictions counselors can learn from psychotherapists?
SB: I've said for 35 years, I have a foot in both fields; one foot in psychology as a mental health professional and one foot in the addiction community as an addiction professional. So I live and breathe both and I have tried to be the interpreter back and forth because I believe the fields have been antagonistic when they didn't need to be. For many years in the 70's and 80's the addiction counselors had no training at all and were simply using their own experiences to become counselors. There was a lot of animosity in the 70's and 80's against psychotherapy.

They were right, in many cases, but that has changed dramatically. Addictions counselors, starting in the 80's and 90's, now have to have academic training. There are addictions certification programs that are very solid and based on a lot of mental health training as well as addiction training. They're becoming psychologists and marriage family therapists. So, we're getting a larger and larger group of people who wear both hats.

Yet, where psychology has been willing to say, "Why don't the addiction counselors want to know more about psychology, we'll teach them" – would psychotherapists go to a residency and treatment program for a week to learn about recovery? No, I don't think so.
RW: I think another element to this issue is how therapists view the differences in working with addicted and non-addicted populations. For example, take a neurotic person, or person who is not addicted to anything but is anxious or depressed. They don’t have impulse problems, but they may be overly self-critical and self-conscious and act punitively against themselves, or they may worry too much or be worn down by life. Therapists are used to seeing these types of clients. Whereas the addict is often a person who has impulse control problems and is acting out into the world, is blaming, can be deceptive, destructive and so forth. So for the therapist this is a different world. One requires soothing, comfort and explanation, insight, perhaps transference work, and the other may need confrontation, boundaries, reality work, and direction. They are two very different ways of doing therapy.
SB: That is so well put! That's just a gem the way you stated it. Really nicely put. (I would venture to tell you that you're seeing less and less of that neurotic that you just described coming into anybody's door since the culture is so out of control.) The way you describe it is so useful, that therapists are used to seeing people who are more self-destructive but the addict is acting out externally. Being addicted is the highway of destruction.
RW: The typical psychotherapist knows something about addictions but tends to think that working with people with addictions is very different.
SB: You know what, it's really not that much different. Therapists may think so. If the person has an addiction and some capacity for self-reflection, I'm going to be working in the psychotherapeutic frame and I can work very similar to how you might work with the anxious or depressed person. The same reflection, what it means, how you think about it, what's going on for you; it's the same frame.

With every single person, no matter how out of control they are, I'm sitting they're saying, "What's that about, what do you think is going on?" I never leave the frame of listening and trying to make sense of what is happening in the room. Now, with a particular person who walks in my door, there may be more issues of containment and boundary setting. You have to come back to the addiction if they don't. You have to wonder how it serves them. I may say, "You're drinking the way you're drinking because it's helpful to you in some way. What does it do for you? How does it function for you?"

It's a very similar type of frame to most therapies, but often the countertransference, as I noted, is quite different in the therapist.

The Most Rewarding Part of Addictions Work

RW: We have time for a few more questions only since we know you must get to a dinner. In your experience, do people coming in with addictions to alcohol or drugs get better?
SB: Through these doorways, yes it works. My job and any therapist's job is to recognize when it's not working, when the person is so out of control that they can no longer utilize psychotherapy, which requires the capacity to reflect. Sometimes people are so impulse disordered that there's no reflection, then you can't use psychotherapy anymore, certainly not without more support and structure. Then you have to up for a more intensive level of treatment very quickly. You have to have interventions like treatments programs or through the justice system.
RW: What’s the most rewarding thing to you about working with people who are addicted?
SB: (big sigh, long pause)
RW: Did I shock you with the question?
SB: Yeah (tears up).
RW: Well, I’d like to know.
SB: I'll tell you in a sec. I'm not sure if I have just one thing.
RW: One or more if you like.
SB: This is just the most profound gift for me to work with somebody who wants to change so deeply and is willing to take the steps despite the difficulties. I am moved over and over and over again that anybody ever gets in the door (tears up again). I believe anyone coming in this door wants help and it's my job to not get in their way. So the best gift to me is when they find in themselves the desire and the willingness to take the next step even though they don't know where it's going.

It's all steps of faith and trust and not knowing. You just don't know every single step you take where you're going. I tell you, these people take these steps and are willing. People get well and they trust in me and I always feel moved by that trust. And staying with them to hold the space where they can find it in themselves is just profound.
RW: That is truly profound, and reminds me of what you called the radical transformation.
VY: We wish we could go into more depth into all of your works, but another day, thank you so much for sharing your work and yourself with us.
SB: This has been an amazing conversation, thank you.
VY: Thank you. You have tremendous passion.
SB: I always say I'm the luckiest person in the world.
RW: I can see why.

The Psychiatric Repression of Thomas Szasz: Its Social and Political Significance

Thomas Szasz has been the leading critic of psychiatry for the past 35 years. In this time, his relationship with psychiatry has been problematic and painful. Critics are rarely loved by the objects of their attention. Thomas Szasz has been hated, mocked, repressed, ignored, and ostracized by psychiatrists who fear his critical gaze. This period of psychiatric history, which is not well known, is highly significant for contemporary psychiatry and for the society in which it operates.

The reader should be informed at the outset that I, personally, have been strongly influenced by Szasz to both my benefit and my detriment. I first met him in 1956, when I was a senior medical student and he had just been appointed professor of psychiatry at the Upstate Medical Center at Syracuse. We have been friends and colleagues for—I am startled by the number—almost 40 years. In this time, both psychiatry and American society have undergone profound changes. Some people have blamed Szasz for some of those changes, for example, the deinstitutionalization of mental patients.1 Others would deny that he has had any influence at all on psychiatric thought or practice. They say that progress in biological psychiatry has rendered his writings hopelessly obsolete.

It is incorrect and unfortunate, however, to dismiss the corpus of Szasz's work on the grounds either that he has been a negative influence or that his work is no longer relevant to modern psychiatry. Although Szasz has been in conflict with psychiatry because he is an individualist and a champion of individual rights, he is not an individual thinker. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as an individual thinker, in the sense that individuals think in the intellectual paradigms of their times. Thinking is a social activity. Thinkers think in the framework of thoughts articulated before them. They may interpret and express their ideas uniquely, but they nevertheless swim in the intellectual currents of their Zeitgeist. Szasz represents a current of intellectual history. The fact that most psychiatrists dismiss him as irrelevant means that psychiatry rejects and avoids that current.

If some people regard Szasz's work as wrong, obnoxious, or obsolete it is because it embodies a historical set of concepts and values with which they disagree or by which they are threatened. Szasz has written critically of psychiatry because he disagrees with fundamental psychiatric concepts and values. The relationship between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry is shaped by ethical and philosophical conflicts which are rooted in historical and political currents. Understanding these currents will help to illuminate some vexing problems of modern psychiatry and society.

This Historical Context

Students of the sociology of knowledge have long understood that thought is a commodity. Karl Mannheim observed that thoughts have political and social value.2 Some thoughts are enlightening and ennobling while others are false and degrading. Some ideas are congenial and supportive of our particular interests while others are contradictory and threatening. Mannheim, like most social thinkers after Marx and Freud, recognized that individuals and groups are motivated by their desires and interests and tend to support ideas which promote them and to oppose ideas which obstruct them.

History shapes and is in turn shaped by the dynamic conflict between competing desires and ideas. Until the seventeenth century of the Christian era, the prevailing ideology in the West was a cosmology which viewed the world hierarchically. The earth was perceived as at the center of the universe, orbited by the seven visible spheres: the moon, the sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter. Presiding at the pinnacle of this cosmic hierarchy was the Judeo-Christian Sky God, Lord of the World, who governed human affairs through His representatives on earth—kings and popes. They, in turn, ruled by divine right over the descending order of landed nobles and feudal chiefs, soldiers and knights, artisans and merchants, and, at the bottom, peasants and indentured serfs.

In the seventeenth century, this dominant ideology was challenged by the scientific discoveries of men like Giordano Bruno, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Isaac Newton, and Rene Descartes. In their new, scientific world view, the earth was perceived as only one of six planets orbiting the sun in a universe governed indifferently by the laws of physics. The New Science threatened the knowledge and, therefore, the authority of the prevailing social powers who consequently opposed it and persecuted its practitioners. Bruno was burned at the stake for teaching that the earth revolves around the sun. Kepler and Descartes were intimidated. Galileo was forced to recant it. His works were censored by the Vatican's index of prohibited books until the end of the nineteenth century.

But the medieval cosmology could not withstand the assault of factual knowledge about the world. At the same time that the facts of the New Science were spreading across Europe, the Catholic Church and the monarchies of its Christian empire were disintegrating from the poisonous effects of their own corruption, cruelty, and hypocrisy. A groundswell of political unrest and revolution overturned the authority of the tyrannical rulers beginning in America in 1776, erupting in France in 1779, and continuing around the world until today.

The twin ideals of the intellectual and political revolutions of the European Enlightenment were science and democracy. Jurisdiction over the problems of human suffering and the pursuit of happiness were transferred from religion to science and from church to state. The new social order would no longer be guided by priests, kings, and scripture toward a hoped-for heaven after death. It would now be guided by scientists and politicians toward the utopian ideal of social progress here on earth.3

The decline of traditional religious authority, the rise of the city, and the corollary disintegration of the clan and family left the individual and the state as the new primary units of society. The democratic revolutions embodied a new political spirit of a community of individuals as expressed in the slogan "Liberty, Equality and Fraternity." This new ideology was fueled by the hope for social progress based on faith in science and an economic policy driven by enlightened self-interest under a minimalist state ruled by law. American constitutional government was designed on the template of this ideology. This is the current of history to which Thomas Szasz belongs. Szasz has been labeled a political conservative but he is, basically, a Jeffersonian liberal.

Szasz's valuation of the individual and of individual rights under the rule of law in an open society also has a personal context. He was born Jewish in Hungary in 1920 when anti-Semitic fascism was on the rise. His family was educated and politically sophisticated. They knew that fascism and communism both meant the hypertrophy of the power of the state and the repression of the individual, especially the Jewish individual. Szasz fled Hungary in 1938 together with his beloved brother George. His parents followed later. They traveled overland to Paris and then overseas to the United States, to Cincinnati, Ohio, where relatives lived. Szasz attended the University of Cincinnati and graduated first in his class with a bachelor of science in physics. He then completed his medical education at the University of Cincinnati medical school.

Szasz's conflict with psychiatry has its historical roots in the growth and expansion of the power of the state over and against the individual. The eighteenth-century ideal of enlightened self-interest was, in practice, more selfish than enlightened. The gap between rich and poor grew wider than it had been under the old feudal and monarchic orders. The modern socialist state has hypertrophied to its present leviathan proportions to mediate the conflicts between classes and groups, to replace the historical functions of the declining family and community, and to socialize, educate, and control its members.

As a social institution, psychiatry has historically functioned both in the service of the individual and in the service of the state. This is the root of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and modern psychiatry. Psychoanalysis and psychotherapy developed in the service of the modern, alienated individual to help resolve and relieve the psychological conflicts and emotional pain of secular life. In this manifestation, the psychiatrist is the heir of the priest, the moralist, the educator, and the critic. Szasz belongs to this tradition. He was trained as a psychoanalyst and, like Freud, was more comfortable in the role of the intellectual and literary critic than of the medical physician.

Psychiatry has another face, however. Psychiatry has also allied itself with the state as a covert agent of social control of the individual. This alliance of psychiatry and the state is a historical consequence of the limitations placed on the power of the state by the rule of law. The rule of law limits the power of the state over the individual. This limitation has motivated the invention of a covert, disguised means by which society can control the individual. Psychiatry has served this social function through its state-sanctioned power to label certain forms of deviant or undesirable conduct as illness and by means of involuntary psychiatric commitment which enables the state to detain individuals against their will, without trial or conviction of a crime, in the name of their mental health.

The conflict between Thomas Szasz and establishment psychiatry began in the historical context of the conflict within psychiatry about whether it functions as an agent of the individual or as an agent of the state. Szasz's critique of psychiatry has two elements: first, the critique of the political function of psychiatry as an agency of social control; second, the critique of the ideology which justifies and facilitates this political function, namely, the medical model of psychiatry.

Szasz's Early Work

Szasz inaugurated his critique of the medical model of psychiatry with the publication of the now classic Myth of Mental Illness in 1961. This seminal work has been widely misunderstood and misinterpreted. Many psychiatrists to this day believe that Szasz denies that mental illness exists and even denies that mental suffering and disturbance exist. On the contrary, Szasz does not deny the existence of suffering. How foolish for anyone to think so. Szasz acknowledges the existence of mental illness, but differs from the conventional view of it. The critical point is that mental illness is not a disease which exists in people, as pneumonia exists in lung tissue. Mental illness is, rather, a name, a label, a socially useful fiction, which is ascribed to certain people who suffer or whose behavior is disturbing to themselves or others.

Szasz developed this point of view while he was a student and teacher at the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute under Franz Alexander. Alexander's work focused on the psychoanalysis of psychosomatic disorders. Szasz disagreed with his teacher on fundamental philosophical points which Szasz presented in his first book, Pain and Pleasure, published in 1957. In this book, Szasz critiqued the prevailing tendency to psychoanalyze body functions, imputing meanings to and motivations for physical diseases. Szasz's critique was based on the work of modern English philosophers such as Bertrand Russell, Gilbert Ryle, and Karl Popper.

Szasz's critique of Alexander's work was derived specifically from the empirical and logical dualism developed by Russell and Ryle.5 Russell took the epistemological position that mind-body dualism is based upon an operational dualism. Mind and body are different because psychology and the physics (including biology) are based on different methods of investigation. Knowledge about the body is obtained by means of the methods of physics observation, description, measurement, and mathematical calculation. Knowledge about the mind is obtained by means of communication through language and the interpretation of meanings. Ryle supplemented this view with the argument that, since our knowledge of other minds is based upon the meaning of the actions and speech of other persons, statements about minds and statements about bodies belong to different logical categories of language.

Szasz applied this point of view to the critique of the medical model of psychiatry. The medical model is so called because it views the mind the way medicine views the body, as an object which is explained either in terms of neurophysiology and genetics or in the language of disease, medicine, and treatment.6 In Pain and Pleasure, Szasz argued that it is logically permissible to talk about the meanings of physical disease, in the sense of our reactions to them and interpretations of them. But to talk about meanings as causes of physical disease is to conflate two operationally and logically different concepts. In The Myth of Mental Illness, Szasz moved from psychosomatic disease to conversion hysteria to demonstrate that the classification of thoughts, feelings, and behavior as diseases or as diseased is a logical error. It confuses the logical category of the body with the logical category of the mind. The term "myth," in The Myth of Mental Illness, refers to a category error as described by Gilbert Ryle. Ryle defined a myth as not a fairy story but as the presentation of the f acts from one logical category in the language appropriate to another.

Szasz's first book was not attacked by established psychiatry. In fact, Franz Alexander was so impressed by Szasz's intellect that he offered to make him his heir as Director of the Chicago Institute of Psychoanalysis.7 Szasz turned Alexander down for another offer, as we shall presently see. Szasz came into conflict with psychiatry not so much because of his ideas but because of his values. All his life, Szasz has been the emphatic champion of the values of individual freedom, dignity, and autonomy, which are in conflict with the psychiatric practices of involuntary psychiatric confinement and treatment. This is the basis of the conflict between Thomas Szasz and psychiatry.

Conflict in the Department of Psychiatry at Syracuse

I can best tell the story of this historical conflict from my own point of view. I believe it is a story that needs to be told and reflected upon. It illustrates how and why intellectual thought is subtly controlled by academic power brokers and, in this case, how the repression of Thomas Szasz and his students reflects the ironic predicament of modern psychiatry.

After graduating from the medical school at Syracuse in 1957, I served a one-year internship in medicine and psychiatry at the Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York. The six-month psychiatry rotation was under John Romano, who was chairman of psychiatry, and George Engel, from whom I learned to read electroencephalograms. In 1958, I returned to Syracuse to do my residency training under Szasz. Dr. Marc Hollender had just been appointed Chairman of Psychiatry at Syracuse, by the good graces and influence of Dr. Julius Richmond, who was then Chairman of Pediatrics. Richmond was a Chicago-trained, psychoanalytically oriented pediatrician who became friendly with Hollender and Szasz when he studied at the psychoanalytic institute. He later became Dean of the Faculty at Syracuse and then Director of Head Start and Surgeon General. Later he moved to the post of Director of the Judge Baker Clinic in Boston. Hollender brought Szasz with him to Syracuse as full and tenured professor of psychiatry. The idea was to form a psychoanalytic training institute at Syracuse with Szasz as the leading intellectual. I was a resident in psychiatry at Syracuse from 1958 to 1961, and was fortunate to have read The Myth of Mental illness in manuscript form and to have discussed it vigorously with a brilliant group of co-residents in Szasz's seminars.

To understand the situation at Syracuse, it is important to recall the intellectual context of psychiatry at that time. Psychoanalysis was in ascendance. It had been increasingly popular among American intellectuals during the 1930s. In the postwar intellectual ferment of the 1950s, it became the guiding theoretical framework of psychiatry. Its derivative, dynamic psychotherapy, was the most popular therapeutic modality. Therapists who did not have psychoanalytic training but who were psychoanalytically oriented practiced dynamic psychotherapy. Psychiatric faculties across the country were recruiting training analysts for chairmanships and professorships with the same enthusiasm, conviction, and exclusivity as they now recruit neurobiologists.

Hollender's idea, as I understood it at the time, was to found a unique psychoanalytic center at Syracuse, unique because it would seek to integrate an interdisciplinary faculty and curriculum. Attempts to integrate psychiatry and psychoanalysis with psychology and the social sciences were very much in the air at the time. Hollender's predecessor, Edward Stainbrook, who was a medical psychiatrist as well as a Ph.D. psychologist, had already invited a variety of social scientists and humanities scholars from Syracuse University to participate in the undergraduate and graduate psychiatry teaching programs at the medical school.

At the time, about 35 years ago, Hollender's vision was avant-garde. It was at the cutting edge not only of psychiatric thought but of the social sciences and humanities, which were heavily influenced by psychoanalysis. Stainbrook had invited Professor Douglas Haring, an anthropologist from Syracuse University, to teach general and psychological anthropology to medical students and psychiatric residents. When Hollender took charge, he hired Ernest Becker, who had recently completed his Ph.D. in anthropology at Syracuse under Haring.

Becker and I quickly became close friends, bonded to each other by a common background as first-generation Jews; by a mutual fascination with anthropology, psychoanalysis, and intellectual history; and a by a mutual love of Italian food and films. Becker attended Szasz's seminars for psychiatric residents and began to read extensively in psychoanalytic literature, hoping to integrate psychoanalytic theory with current work in psychological anthropology. In 1961, I completed my residency and, at Hollender's invitation, joined the full-time psychiatric faculty. Gradually, Becker and I shaped a common vision which seemed to be in harmony with Hollender's vision of an interdisciplinary psychoanalytic center, namely, to bring modern knowledge from the fields of psychology, anthropology, sociology, and philosophy to bear on a new understanding of the forms of mental suffering which are designated as mental illness. Toward this end, I took a master's degree in philosophy at Syracuse University and also taught the sociology of personal development and deviance under Paul Meadows.

The next few years were intellectually productive for Szasz, Becker, and myself. Szasz followed The Myth of Mental Illness with Law, Liberty and Psychiatry, the third of 25 books he has published to this date. Becker wrote the first edition of The Birth and Death of Meaning, in which he attempted to integrate psychoanalytic and anthropological concepts of human personality development. Next, he wrote a potentially seminal book which, tragically, has been widely ignored by psychiatrists, The Revolution in Psychiatry. In this book, Becker adopts the eclectic spirit at Syracuse and the spirit of Szasz's critique of the medical model by initiating a project for the development of a nonmedical, interdisciplinary view of such alleged mental illnesses as schizophrenia and depression. I recommend this book highly to those interested in a fresh and non-reductionistic view of depression and schizophrenia. Becker's hopes for the development of a new humanistic science were dashed by developments at Syracuse, but he continued to write as he pursued the painful career of a peripatetic intellectual.

For my small part, I published in two directions. I wrote a number of articles critical of the legal and social functions of psychiatry.8 At the same time, I was working with Ernest, in the context of our friendship, toward an interdisciplinary, nonmedical understanding of the various psychiatric diagnoses. In this period, I wrote a nonmedical formulation of the problem of phobias.9 I was in the process of developing an introductory textbook of psychiatry for a course taught to sophomore medical students. I was also writing a political and sociological critique of psychiatry, which appeared in 1969 as In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry.

The dark clouds of conflict soon appeared on the horizon, however, and the dream of a school of autonomous, interdisciplinary intellects striving together to understand the problems of human life vanished in the storm.

In 1962, after The Myth of Mental Illness had been published, Szasz testified in the Onondaga County trial of John Chomentowski. Mr. Chomentowski owned a small gasoline station which he sold to a prominent real estate developer. When the developer tried to take over the property earlier than had been agreed, Mr. Chomentowski threatened the company's agents with a shotgun which he fired into the air. He was arrested and the prosecutors, aided by testimony of government psychiatrists, convinced the court that Chomentowski was not mentally competent to stand trial. Chomentowski was then committed to Matteawan State Hospital for the Criminally Insane, in spite of the fact that he had not been convicted of a crime. Szasz testified at a habeas corpus hearing in which Chomentowski was suing to gain his freedom from confinement. The trial, which I attended, was a highly anticipated event in psychiatric circles, since for the first time Szasz was in an adversarial confrontation with conventional psychiatrists in a public forum.

Szasz's testimony was eloquent, witty, and bold. Testifying for the defendant, he stated frankly under questioning that he did not believe that mental illnesses are true medical diseases but, rather, are psychiatric fictions. He believed that mental hospitals are prisons and that, in effect, Mr. Chomentowski had been imprisoned without having been convicted of a crime. He translated the state hospital psychiatrists' psycho-babble testimony into ordinary language with devastating effect. What the psychiatrists called psychotic aggression Szasz called anger at false confinement. What the psychiatrists called psychotic withdrawal Szasz translated as the unwillingness to consort with one's enemies. What the psychiatrists called contractions of his blepharal and facial muscles Szasz called "blinking." The state psychiatrists from Marcy State Hospital in nearby Rome, where Chomentowski was being held for examination and trial, were humiliated and angered.

Present in the courtroom was Abraham Halpern, then Commissioner of Mental Health for Onondaga County. He sat at the prosecutor's table, coaching the District Attorneys. He felt outraged by Szasz's testimony and made his feelings known. His protests reached the ears of the State Commissioner of Mental Hygiene, Dr. Paul Hoch. Simultaneously, the state hospital psychiatrists complained to the director of their hospital, Dr. Newton Bigelow, who was also editor of the then-prestigious psychiatric journal, The Psychiatric Quarterly. Bigelow published an article in his journal condemning Szasz, "Szasz for the Gander."(10) In response to the complaints by the state psychiatrists, Dr. Hoch issued an order banning Dr. Thomas Szasz from teaching psychiatric residents at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. To understand the significance of this order, it is necessary to know how Hollender's department of psychiatry was set up.

Hollender had a dual appointment as both chairman of the department of psychiatry at the medical school and as director of the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital, which was a state hospital. In addition, many of the faculty of the department of psychiatry also had joint appointments as visiting staff at the hospital, including Szasz. This arrangement was and is today quite common. Many of the faculty of medical school departments of psychiatry around the country are also directors or staff of government-run hospitals. The critical fact in this case is that Hollender decided to locate his office for both positions at the state hospital. Using state funds, he constructed for himself a very comfortable office at the hospital from which he conducted departmental business. In addition, Hollender refurbished a meeting room at the hospital where the department held its weekly scientific and faculty meetings.

When Szasz was notified that his appointment as visiting psychiatrist at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital was terminated, he boycotted the hospital, including the departmental meetings which were held at the hospital, on the basis that if he was not permitted to teach there, he should not attend teaching clinics conducted there. This created a conflict between Szasz and Hollender which split the department apart. Several faculty members, including the psychologists Ed Engel and Charles Reed, Becker, and myself joined Szasz in boycotting the hospital. Those who joined the boycott did not all necessarily agree with Szasz's analysis of the concept of mental illness, but they all found unacceptable the attempt by an official of the state to censor and repress a member of an academic faculty.

Hollender responded by offering to move the scientific faculty meetings to the medical school. This did not satisfy Szasz or other members of the faculty, however. They believed that Hoch's and Hollender's repression of Szasz made it clear that the teaching faculties of an academic department of psychiatry must be autonomous and independent of the state or the freedom of inquiry and expression would be jeopardized. They requested that Hollender choose between being director of the state hospital or being chairman of the department of psychiatry. If he was to continue as chairman of psychiatry, he should resign as director of the hospital and move his office to the medical school.

Hollender declined to choose. He took the position that the state hospital was the flagship of the department and he was admiral of both. Interpersonal tensions in the department intensified. Szasz's supporters took seriously the threat by the state to intimidate and repress academic faculty. Most of the faculty who had joint appointments at the medical school and the Syracuse Psychiatric or the nearby Veteran's Administration Hospital, which also had a closed ward with involuntary patients, were hostile toward Szasz. They rejected his critique of the medical model and believed he was creating unnecessary conflict. Some people believed that Szasz should not even be allowed to teach The Myth of Mental Illness to students, interns, and residents at the medical school. The conflicts were both personal and ideological, the one fueling the other until the department was divided into two hostile camps.

Some members of the faculty contrived a secret scheme to lure Szasz into insubordination so they could fire him in spite of his tenure. One principled member of the group, Dr. Richard Phillips, withdrew and notified Szasz of the attempt. Szasz hired a young lawyer from the local law school, George Alexander, later dean of the law school at the University of California at Santa Clara, to defend him against his accusers. The dean of the medical school, Carlysle Jacobsen, appointed faculty committees to investigate the conflict. The AAUP committee, chaired by Dr. Peter Witt, found that Szasz's academic freedom had, indeed, been violated.

Hollender was exasperated by this conflict, which had stalled his quest for psychiatric empire. One day, Hollender telephoned Becker to request his appearance in Hollender's office at the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital. Some medical students had asked Hollender whether the psychiatric teaching program had been compromised by the conflict between him and Szasz. Hollender asked the students where they had heard such a story. They told him they heard it from Becker. Hollender was indignant. He accusingly demanded to know from Becker whether he was warning prospective interns and residents away from the department.

I was present when Becker returned Hollender's call. We had discussed how he might respond. Becker told Hollender that he would not meet him at the hospital because he was not on the staff of the hospital, he was on the faculty of the medical school. The administrators of the hospital had banned a faculty colleague from teaching there and so he would prefer to meet Hollender at the medical school. Hollender refused and, once again, ordered Becker to come down to Hollender's office in the state Hospital. Becker refused. Hollender fired him on the spot!

On the one hand, Hollender might seem to have had some justification for firing Becker on the grounds of insubordination. On the other hand, Becker was one of Szasz's most vocal defenders. His ideas and writings were influenced by or were in harmony with Szasz's views. Becker was even interviewing a few patients by Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital under Szasz's supervision. Firing Becker was a way for Hollender to strike back at Szasz.

After leaving the medical school, Becker had a tragic-glorious peripatetic career.11 He spent 1965 in Rome writing what he thought would be his monumental work, The Structure of Evil.12 He then returned for a one-year appointment in the department of anthropology at Syracuse University, sponsored by his close friend Professor Agehananda Bharati. This was followed by a second year in Sociology, hosted by his friend Professor Paul Meadows, who was chairman. The following year, Becker replaced Erving Goffman at Berkeley on Goffman's recommendation. He won a brief moment of fame there when he was written up in Time magazine because the student body at Berkeley petitioned for Becker to be rehired, and, in an unprecedented move offered to pay his salary out of the student organization's treasury. But the university refused. It would have been too dangerous for them to rehire a professor who was a social critic and also popular with the students at time of political protest and upheaval.

Becker then moved across the bay to San Francisco State University where he worked happily until 1968, when S.I. Hayakawa, then president of the university, called police on campus to repress student demonstrations against the war in Vietnam. Becker resigned in protest in a heroic gesture, since he had three children and no prospect of any job elsewhere. The only offer he received was from Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, Canada, where he remained in exile until his premature death from colon cancer in 1974.

Two months after he died, Becker was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in Nonfiction for his book The Denial of Death. This highly prestigious award represents the recognition by the literary community of the high merit of Becker's work. Yet Becker has never been recognized by establishment psychiatry in spite of the fact that he wrote continuously on psychiatric issues from his days in Syracuse until he died. His work has been totally ignored. To establishment psychiatry, Becker was tainted by his association with the reviled Szasz. In effect, Becker was indexed and repressed. He was the victim of modern society's favorite method of repressing its critics—what the Germans call Todschweigen (Tod = death; schweigen = silence)—death by silence.

After Becker left, I continued as an assistant professor at the department of psychiatry, teaching, writing, and speaking my mind on a variety of psychiatric issues, including the social functions of psychiatry and nonmedical conceptualizations of the problems of human suffering. During this period, I completed the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health. In 1966, frustrated by his hostile standoff with Szasz, Hollender resigned as chairman of the department and was replaced by Dr. David Robinson, an ally of Hollender's who even more vehemently opposed Szasz's critique of psychiatry and the concept of mental illness.

The department was still trying to continue its liaison with social scientists and other scholars from Syracuse University. A committee was formed, of which I was an appointed member whose job was to nominate social scientists from Syracuse University to teach the psychiatric residents and interns. I taught at Syracuse and knew the faculties of the social sciences and humanities, and I nominated Ernest Becker and Stanley Diamond, an outstanding anthropologist who later became professor at the New School, as the best suited to teach medical students and psychiatric residents. My colleague on the committee, Dr. Robert W. Daly, now Professor of Medical Humanities at the Health Sciences Center at Syracuse, agreed on these nominations, as did Dr. Bradley Starr, chairman of the committee, although Starr was doubtful that Robinson would approve of either of these men.

A few days later, Starr informed me that Robinson had indeed vetoed both Becker and Diamond as candidates to teach the psychiatric residents. I could understand why he vetoed Becker. Hollender, although no longer chairman, was still in the department and it would have been awkward for him to face Becker. I could not imagine, however, why Robinson objected to Diamond, who had nothing to do with Szasz or the Szasz affair. I protested to Starr. The next day, Robinson burst into my office and announced that he did not intend to renew my appointment. Since I was a junior faculty member without tenure, this meant, in effect, that I had been fired.

I appealed to the local and national chapters of the AAUP on the grounds that, although I did not have tenure, the university did not have the right to dismiss me because of my views. They could fire me without reason, or for such justifiable reasons as insubordination, dereliction, incompetence, or flagrant immorality. But they could not fire me because the chairman opposed my views, my speech, or my writings.

In a meeting with Dr. Jacobsen, Dean of the Faculty at the medical school, Robinson said he would not renew my appointment because he "did not need two French professors in his department," meaning that he had been sufficiently provoked by Szasz and did not want another thorn in his side. In other words, everyone else in the department could share Robinson's views, but if I shared Szasz's views, I was excess baggage.

To my further amazement, Robinson boldly admitted that he did not want me on the faculty because he did not want my book published while I was a member of the department. He said that he was afraid that with both Szasz and me writing, publishing, and teaching our heretical views, the department at Syracuse might become known as "anti-psychiatry" and might not be funded by the NIMH, with obvious unpleasant consequences for him and the department. Jacobsen, acting in the great tradition of academic administrators, chose to avoid conflict with a department chairman. He imposed a compromise. He conceded that the department had fired me without adequate notice since Robinson had fired me in March effective the following September while AAUP regulations provided for one year's notice to give the rejected member time to find another job. So Jacobsen gave me a six-month extension on my appointment—a delay of execution.

On another occasion, Robinson arrogantly admitted to me that he did not want either Becker or Diamond to teach in his department because he believed both men were eastern radical-liberal troublemakers who were stirring up dissent by participating in civil rights and anti-war protests. The implication was clear that Robinson believed that I, too, was a member of this group of traitors.

Becker and I were both victims of the psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz. In my view, Robinson, Jacobsen, and the State University abridged my First Amendment rights of free expression. If one believes in the value of ideas and the right to express ideas, which is supposedly protected by the First Amendment, this is a serious matter. I do not think that my experience is unique. I saw a generation of brilliant intellectuals driven off university campuses because they studied and talked about Marx or some other out-of-favor thinker, or because they fought in the civil rights and anti-war struggles of the 1960s. In my view, the same situation exists today in universities and medical school departments of psychiatry. I do not believe thought is free in America. Thought is a controlled substance, repressed and regulated by representatives of various prevailing interests. Many of my friends on the medical school faculty were horrified by this situation, but felt powerless to do anything about it. The AAUP committee of the medical school, after painful debate, decided not to challenge the administration on constitutional grounds.

It was a painful experience, but my fate, or that of Becker or Szasz as individuals, is relatively insignificant in the scheme of history. More significant, it seems to me, are the questions of whether the right to the free expression of ideas was violated at Syracuse and, if so, what are the motives and consequences of such repression?

We can only speculate what course psychiatric history might have taken had Szasz not been repressed and had Becker and I not been fired from the medical school at Syracuse. Our dynamic trio would likely have attracted at least a few interested students. And some of these students might have matured, made their own unique contributions, and, in turn, drawn more interested students. Possibly, a school of thought might have developed at Syracuse which would provide a critical alternative to the current ideological hegemony of contemporary medical-coercive psychiatry.

As it is, neither Szasz, Becker, nor I have had any students, in the sense that most university professors and elders of various intellectual traditions usually have the opportunity to teach and guide their heirs of the next generation. After the crisis with Hollender was resolved, Szasz remained at Syracuse as full professor, but out of the spotlight and off stage. He was not asked and did not volunteer to teach psychiatric residents. He no longer presented papers or participated in the discussion at faculty meetings. He wrote and published prolifically, traveled and lectured widely and frequently, but was silent at Syracuse.

I too was, in effect, blackballed from academic psychiatry. I applied for faculty positions elsewhere, but I was condemned by my association with Szasz and by the evidence of my own writings. I submitted the manuscript of In the Name of Mental Health to Basic Books. They accepted and I went to Mexico on an extended adventure. When I returned, the editor at Basic Books, Irving Kristol, called me and withdrew the offer. Basic Books would have to reject my book, he confessed apologetically, because the psychiatrists to whom they gave the book to review were so outraged by it that they threatened to boycott Basic Books if they published it. Todschweigen! I was repressed and negated by psychiatrists who threatened to boycott my prospective publisher.

I have spent the last 30 years in the glorious isolation of private practice, continuing to study and write, striving to develop a nonmedical view on the problems of mental and emotional suffering. Having been disillusioned by the coercive and repressive influences in Western psychiatry and psychology, I turned elsewhere for insight and understanding. Over the years, my interest has increasingly turned to a study of the Buddhist view of mind.

Over the past 20 years, I have studied under several distinguished Tibetan Lamas, particularly Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche, Abbot of Karma Triyana Dharmachakra, a Karma Kagyu monastery near Woodstock, New York. I was one of the organizers of the first Karma Kagyu Conference on Buddhism and Psychotherapy at International House in New York in 1987. I invited Tom Szasz and R. D. Laing to be two of the main Western speakers at this conference. For the past two years, I have been a student at the Namgyal Monastery Institute for Buddhist Studies in Ithaca, New York, which was founded by the Dalai Lama. I have just completed a comparative study of Buddhist and Western views on suffering and the causes of suffering, called The Happiness Project.13 I am now working on a manuscript on the emotions as viewed from a combined Buddhist and Western perspective.

In my view, obviously textured by my own personal experiences, the events at Syracuse are significant because they represent the repression and abortion of a school of ideas. I believe that ideas are important. E. A. Burtt once wrote that the concept a people has of its world is its most important possession. How we see the world shapes how we act in it. The repression of Szasz at Syracuse is symptomatic of a society which, like Oedipus Rex, blinds itself to the truth it does not want to see.

Szasz was banned from the Syracuse Psychiatric Hospital because of his views and his values. In contrast to the followers of the medical model, Szasz acknowledges and appreciates the differences between mind and body, and does not try to reduce the former to the latter. Unlike most modern psychiatrists, Szasz opposed the common practice of oppressing individuals through psychiatric labeling and involuntary commitment.

Szasz was repressed because his critique of the medical model threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists. Becker and I were fired not simply because we defended the academic freedom of a colleague, or even because we were friends of Szasz. We were fired because we were writing and publishing prolifically and thus also represented a threat to psychiatric ideology and psychiatric identity. In my view, the events at Syracuse constitute the control and suppression of thought for social and political purposes, something we assume does not happen in this country, but which happens so persistently and inexorably that we choose to ignore it.

The Significance of the Psychiatric Repression of Szasz

What is the significance of the repression of Thomas Szasz and the possible abortion of a critical school of thought in psychiatry? To probe this question, we must trace the recent history of psychiatry. In the early 1960s when Szasz was first repressed, psychiatry was at a crossroads, a crisis of identity. The psychoanalytic tradition had reached the zenith of its influence and several formidable problems had been exposed. Psychoanalytic therapy had become the most powerful and most popular form of treatment of mental illness. The problem was that it is a nonmedical treatment. It can be practiced equally well by psychologists, social workers, and other skilled nonmedical professionals as well as by physicians. The increasing number of nonmedical psychotherapists not only threatened the medical identity of psychiatrists, it also threatened the economic interests of psychiatrists by competing for psychiatric patients at a lower fee. A second and related problem was that the basic sciences of psychoanalysis are psychology and the social sciences. A sophisticated spectrum of neo-psychoanalytic, nonmedical theories of mental illness was under development by men like Erving Goffman, Norman O. Brown, and particularly by the French existentialists. Szasz, with his reinterpretation of conversion hysteria in The Myth of Mental Illness, Becker, with his new theories on schizophrenia, depression, and the neurotic sexual fetishes, and my contribution on phobias14 were on the frontier of this development.

The problem for psychiatry was that its medical identity was being eroded by psychoanalysis. Szasz's critique of the medical model and of coercive psychiatric practices was perceived by medical psychiatrists as an added threat to their legitimacy. Medical doctors in other specialties were growing increasingly skeptical that psychiatrists were really kin under the sheepskin. Nonmedical therapists, often well trained and competent, were competing with medical psychiatrists for fees. Psychiatrists who worked for the state, particularly those who worked with involuntary patients in mental hospitals or clinics and who adhered to a Kraepelinian model of medical diagnoses, were becoming increasingly hostile toward psychoanalysis and psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrists in private practice.

Over the years, psychiatric anger toward Szasz and those who agree with his point of view has been further provoked by the mental patient's survivor movement. The medical- coercive psychiatrists and their sympathizers have come increasingly under criticisms and attack by survivors of psychiatric abuse—victims of involuntary confinement and forced drugging and electroshock.15 We have recently become more sensitive to the endemic horrors of sexual abuse and child abuse, thanks to the media. However, we have not discovered, or have not yet been willing to admit, the degree of endemic psychiatric abuse by means of involuntary confinement and forced treatment. Our denial is reinforced by psychiatrists who regard the victims of psychiatric abuse as mentally ill and therefore incompetent to form valid feelings or complaints. This is similar to saying that a rape victim asked for it. The mental patient survivors and self-help movement is autonomous and driven by its own motives, but it has, over the years, been inspired and supported by Szasz, Peter Breggin16 (a student of Szasz's and mine at Syracuse), me, and other critics of coercive medical psychiatry. This has contributed to the psychiatric anger toward Szasz and his supporters.

Hollender embraced both sides of this inner conflict of psychiatry in that he was both a psychoanalytically trained chairman of an academic department of psychiatry and a director of a state hospital. The situation at Syracuse was representative of the conflict within psychiatry as a whole and, thus, was primed and ready for the explosion that occurred.

At the same time, other developments in psychiatry were strengthening the hand of those who subscribe to the medical model. The era of tranquilizers had arrived with the introduction of Thorazine in 1954. The success of the new tranquilizers in controlling the inmates of psychiatric institutions was exploited by medical psychiatrists to bolster their argument that mental illnesses have a biological basis. Increasing funds were invested by pharmaceutical companies to develop new anti-psychotic and antidepressant drugs and the NIMH increasingly favored research to study the safety and efficacy of these drugs, thus underwriting the medical model.

As narrowly funded research seemed to confirm and explain the efficacy of psychoactive drugs, the false impression was created that psychiatry had become an objective, quantifiable, "hard" biological science. As new generations of drugs were developed, the pharmacological treatment of mental illness appeared to be more cost- effective and became more popular. This trend has continued to the present day, when, under managed care, drug treatment of mental illness is the preferred modality and psychiatrists are now primarily trained as psychopharmacologists rather than as psychotherapists. Psychotherapy has largely been taken over by nonmedical therapists! This is the historical context of the conflict between establishmentarian, medical-model psychiatry and its critics such as Szasz, Becker, and me.

But the pendulum of history may now be swinging the other way. The biological approach to mental illness may have reached a point where its weaknesses, problems, and contradictions are becoming clear, just as they did after psychoanalysis was in vogue for a few decades. The biological model of mental illness has been successful, in part, because it has identified itself with modern science and, thus, basks in the prestige of modern science. Present-day psychiatric theories assert that mental illness is basically brain disease, that schizophrenia and depression are basically caused by genetic predisposition to "chemical imbalances"—excessive dopamine in the case of the former and insufficient serotonin in the case of the latter. This point of view helps to solidify psychiatric identity as medical and carves out for psychiatrists a monopoly on the pharmacological treatment of mental illnesses.

Present biological theories of mental illness, however, are highly problematic. In the first place, they are incomplete, because they are biological, reductionistic, and ignore the psychological dimensions of human experience and thus ignore what is most characteristic of and fundamental to the human experience. Secondly, they are weak in themselves, having been deduced entirely, and not entirely logically, from the actions of tranquilizers and antidepressants on neurotransmitters.

The fact that Prozac, for instance, which boosts intersynaptic serotonin, can help lift depression does not logically imply that the depression is caused by low brain serotonin. It may equally well be, and is in my opinion more likely, that the individual's psychological response to life events conditions the levels of brain serotonin. In spite of the strident brain reductionism of modern biological psychiatrists, there is strong scientific evidence that experience influences the brain's physical structure and development. Spitz's famous studies showed that babies will die without sufficient love. Children will lose their capacity for speech if they have not learned to talk by a certain age. A crowd of sports fans in a frenzy over the last-minute victory of their team will undoubtedly have elevated blood catecholamines. Is their excitement due to the elevated catecholamines or to the thrill of victory?

While psychiatrists are publicly engaged in a media blitz to propagandize the idea that mental illnesses are medical diseases which are treatable with medications, privately they admit that their research is flawed and their theories are, as yet, unproved. Every few years they convene a committee to write a new diagnostic and statistical manual (DSM), in which the primary proof of the existence of the diagnostic categories of mental illness is that psychiatrists, who train each other to see them, believe they exist. Natalie Angier, science writer for the New York Times, says what no psychiatrist will publicly admit: that they "want badly to transform their discipline into a hard, quantifiable science that is on a par with molecular biology, or genetics, but they have often been frustrated. Every time they think they have unearthed a real, analyzable gene to explain a mental disorder like manic depression or alcoholism, the finding dissolves on closer inspection or is cast into doubt."17

To make matters worse, psychiatry bears the historical guilt of having purged itself of critics. No supporter of Szasz's views on mental illness would be appointed to full-time position by an academic department of psychiatry to teach psychiatric residents. I know this from my own personal experience. In spite of his international reputation, Szasz's papers are routinely rejected by psychiatric journals. He has, in effect, been excommunicated.

“As a result of the persecution of Szasz at Syracuse and elsewhere, there are no critics of psychiatry from within its ranks. This, in itself, should disqualify psychiatric theory as scientific.” The essence of scientific method is critical inquiry. The basic principle of scientific discovery is the null hypothesis, that is, the hypothesis which, when it is advanced, is presumed to be false and is subject to exhaustive testing, checking, and criticism before it is even accepted as provisionally valid.

Psychiatric thought more closely resembles political ideology than it does science in that it is presented and certified by a power elite, the psychiatric establishment, who promote and propagandize their views as official dogma and who dismiss, exclude, and persecute dissenters. Psychiatric thought is not the product of a free market of ideas. It is carefully controlled and disseminated. And it serves the economic and psycho-social interests of those who purvey it by promoting their medical identity and justifying their right to receive part of the national health care budget. This does not mean that the costs of alleviating the emotional sufferings of life should not be distributed equally through insurance programs, whether private or public. It means that if we distort our perception of the problems of life by viewing them as medical illnesses, we are disabling our abilities to deal with these problems effectively in order to justify the sharing of its costs.

The persecution and repression of Thomas Szasz and his school of thought, and the corresponding supremacy of the medical model of mental illness, presents two critical problems, one for psychiatry and the population it serves and the other for society as a whole. An exclusively biological approach to problems of mental suffering and disability is, at best, partial and incomplete and, at worst, disempowering and disabling to the consumers of mental health services. It sends the explicit message that people are not responsible for the forms of suffering which are labeled as mental illness.

There are certain kinds of suffering for which the individual cannot be held responsible, and others for which he or she can. Certainly, people are not responsible for their medical illnesses, except in cases where they are self-induced, like cancer of the lung from smoking cigarettes. On the other hand, there is a degree of suffering that we cause ourselves because of our ignorance, our selfishness, our greed, and our aggression.

Ancient wisdom teaches that a portion of our suffering is the result of defects of moral character. The Greeks, too, knew that character is fate. Sophocles said that "the greatest griefs are those we cause ourselves."18 The Judeo-Christian Bible is a book of ethics based on the belief that evil-doing is punished with suffering and virtue is rewarded with happiness. The moral teachings of the Judeo-Christian prophets, on which the values of Western civilization are based, tell us, in effect, that although life is a "valley of tears" we are, nevertheless, responsible for some portion of our suffering.

We are responsible, at least, for how we suffer, for example, whether we suffer patiently, like Job, or with aggression. We are also responsible for that portion of our suffering that we cause ourselves. We are responsible for the consequences or our words and deeds. This is the law of Karma, or, as the saying goes: "What goes around comes around." These are profound moral teachings and they are compatible with the view of most modern psychotherapists, who, whether or not they believe in the medical model, practice therapy on the assumption that we can increase our measure of happiness through self-knowledge and self-discipline.

Innumerable patients have come to me with the complaint that they have a "chemical imbalance." They have been told by other therapists, or have heard in the media, or have read in misleading NIMH pamphlets, that their sufferings—their depression, their anxiety, their guilt, their anger, their enthusiasm, their addiction to drugs or food, their obsessions and compulsions—are due to biochemical imbalances in their brain. They have no idea what these chemical imbalances are. But they believe they are the cause of their misery. As a result, they have not the slightest insight into or interest in the way in which their mental attitudes, orientations, and responses to life events cause their suffering and symptoms. They have become blind to the human dimensions of their lives, to the nature of their own experience, and thus have handicapped their ability to deal with the problems of life.

By discouraging people from taking responsibility for themselves, for their own behavior, emotions, and modes of thinking, biological psychiatry contributes to the current political atmosphere of the dissipation of moral values and the abandonment of personal responsibility. In this century, we have seen the balance between individual freedom and state power swing away from the individual and toward the state. As it swings toward the state, the individual is deprived both of freedom and the responsibilities which are intrinsic to the exercise of freedom. Modern psychiatry has contributed to the momentum of this swing by promoting an ideology which is biologically reductionistic and explains human thoughts, feelings, and behavior on the basis of brain physiology.

After completing his presidency, Dwight Eisenhower warned the American people that the military-industrial complex, which was largely responsible for victory in World War II, was the greatest danger to peace. As we approach the millennium, we must be aware of a new danger. The State-Science Alliance, upon which our forefathers relied instead of religion for human progress, is now the greatest threat to that progress.

The psychiatric repression of Thomas Szasz is a symptom of the rise of the State-Science Alliance—the ascendance of the ethics and technology for managing and controlling people and the simultaneous decline of the ethics of individual freedom, dignity, and responsibility. In the context of history, the conflict is between a narrowly scientific, biological-reductionistic view of human beings, which interprets behavior as the product of brain chemistry and justifies depriving certain individuals of their freedom against their will, and a humanistic view which integrates biological science into a multidimensional perspective on the individual as moral agent. To humanists all over the world, Szasz is a hero who has fought long and hard and with great personal sacrifice for the values of individual rights, freedom, and dignity, and against the paternalistic state and psychiatrists who function as agents of the state to manage, control, and repress the individual.

The issue came to a focus recently when Darryl Strawberry, star outfielder of the Los Angeles Dodgers, quit playing baseball, reportedly because he had a problem with drugs and had to enter a treatment program for addiction. Tommy Lasorda, manager of the Dodgers, criticized Strawberry for his lack of moral character because he yielded to the temptation of drugs. Tipper Gore, wife of the U.S. Vice-President and champion of medical-model coercive psychiatry, chastened Lasorda for his ignorance. Every educated person today knows, Tipper Gore said, that addiction is a disease and that Strawberry, therefore, is the victim of mental illness. Perhaps only old Szasz fans and old Dodger fans like me believe Tommy Lasorda.

Notes

  1. Rael J. Isaac, and Virginia C. Armat, Madness in the Streets: How Psychiatry and the Law Abandoned the Mentally Ill. (New York: The Free Press. 1990).
  2. Karl Mannheim, Ideology and Utopia (New York: Harcourt, Brace and World, 1929).
  3. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  4. Ronald Leifer, In the Name of Mental Health: The Social Functions of Psychiatry (New York: Science House, 1969); Ronald Leifer, "The Medical Model as the Ideology of the Therapeutic State," Journal of Mind and Behavior, 11, nos. 3 and 4 (Summer and Autumn 1990), pp. 247-258; Thomas Szasz, Law, Liberty and Psychiatry (New York: Macmillan, 1963).
  5. Bertrand Russell, The Analysis of Matter (New York: Dover Publications, 1954), and Logic and Knowledge, Charles Marsh, Ed. (London: Allen and Unwin, 1956); Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind (New York: Barnes and Noble, 1949).
  6. Szasz is uncomfortable with the term "medical model" because, he says, "medical doctors don't deprive people of their freedom" (personal communication). Psychiatrists use only those aspects of the medical model that are useful to their interests. By this definition, the medical model refers to a view of the mind on the template of the body and the brain. This results in a biological or neurophysiological reductionism for explaining thoughts, feelings, and behavior.
  7. Personal communication from Tom Szasz.
  8. Ronald Leifer,"The Competence of the Psychiatrist to Assist in the Determination of Incompetency: A Skeptical Inquiry into the Courtroom Functions of Psychiatrists," Syracuse Law Review, 14, no. 4 (Summer 1963), pp. 564- 575. See also Leifer, "Psychiatric Expert Testimony and Criminal Responsibility," American Psychologist, 19, no. 11 (November 1964), pp. 825-830.
  9. Ronald Leifer, "Avoidance and Mastery: An Interactional View of Phobias," Journal of Individual Psychology, 22, no. 1 (May 1966), pp. 80-93.
  10. Newton Bigelow, "Szasz for the Gander," Psychiatric Quarterly 36, no. 4 (1962) pp. 754- 767.
  11. Ronald Leifer, "Ernest Becker: A Biography." In International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Volume II (New York: Harper and Row, 1978). See also Leifer, "The Legacy of Ernest Becker." Kairos,2, (1986), pp. 8-21.
  12. Ernest Becker, The Structure of Evil: An Essay on the Unification of the Science of Man (New York: Braziller, 1968).
  13. Ronald Leifer, The Happiness Project: Transforming the Three Poisons Which Are the Causes of the Suffering We Inflict on Ourselves and Others (Ithaca: Snow Lion Press, 1997).
  14. Ernest Becker, Revolution in Psychiatry (New York: The Free Press, 1969); Ernest Becker, Angel in Armor: A Post-Freudian perspective on the Nature of man (New York: George Braziller, 1969); Leifer, Avoidance and mastery.
  15. Kate Millet, The Loony Bin Trip (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990).
  16. Peter Breggin, Toxic psychiatry (New York, St. Martin's Press, 1992).
  17. Natalie Angier, Review of Torrey, E.F., et al., Schizophrenia and Manic Depressive Disorder, in New York Times Book Review, April 17, 1994.
  18. Sophocles, Oedipus Rex. In The Oedipus Plays of Sophocles, Paul Roche, trans. (New York: Mentor Books, 1991).

What Do We Believe and Whom Do We Trust?

Caitlin had been referred by her physician because he could find no organic cause for her symptoms. She had complained of a variety of medical problems that led to being run through a gauntlet of tests, scans, and diagnostic procedures, all negative. Yet her problems, regardless of their origin, seemed to worsen over time. Caitlin was hardly the most expressive or verbal client I'd seen.

Although in her mid-twenties, she reminded me of some adolescents who would rarely speak; in her case she was virtually mute.

"What can I help you with?" I asked to begin our first session. Shrug.

"You're not sure?" Another shrug.

Was she playing a game with me? Was I being tested? Did she have laryngitis or a mental handicap? I could not be sure.

After five long minutes of silence in which she stared at the floor, seemingly fascinated by the weave of the carpet, I had finally had enough. "Look Caitlin, I'm not sure what you expect of me or why you're here. The only thing that I know is that your doctor sent you to me because he couldn't help you. I understand you are having a lot of problems, and, apparently, he thinks it might be helpful for you to talk about them. But I can't help you unless you tell me what's going on."

Incredibly, Caitlin shrugged again but this time offered a wry smile.

Now I was determined to wait her out. There was something going on here that I did not understand, but I sensed that pushing her further was not going to work. I just wanted to get through the hour and send her on her way. Obviously, she was not ready for therapy.

We sat silently for the rest of the session, Caitlin alternately staring at the floor and some undetermined spot over my left shoulder. I checked a few times, just to see what was so interesting, but it was one of the few blank spots on the wall. Maybe she was projecting her own images. At this point I did not know or care; I was already thinking about my next client and what I could do to make up for this disaster.

Imagine my surprise when the session finally ended and Caitlin said to me, "Same time next week?"

I was taken by such surprise that all I could do was nod my head. Now I was the one who was rendered mute.

The second session repeated the pattern of the first: Caitlin took her seat but would not speak. She just sat there, apparently comfortable and unconcerned with the silence. Even though I was prepared for this eventuality, and had rehearsed several things I might do to draw her out, each overture was met with a shrug or ignored altogether. By the time the second session ended, I was resolved that I'd had enough: no more "same time next week."

I was just about to call for an end to this charade, pretending to be therapy, when Caitlin abruptly stood up, handed me an envelope, and exited, stage left. I was dumbfounded, frozen in place, holding this offering in my hand, unsure what to do next. I told myself that I should just put it aside for now—it could not be good news—but my curiosity got the better of me. I ripped open the envelope to find a five-page single-spaced letter in which Caitlin had outlined the sorry state of her life. It included all the things that a client would normally reveal in the first few sessions, talking about her early history, her family situation, her living arrangements, employment, and cogently reviewing all her various physical symptoms. She ended the self-report by stating that she hoped I understood how difficult it was for her to talk about these things and asked if I could be patient with her. She said she would return the following week if I'd still be willing to see her.

What could I say to that? I just shook my head, eager to resume this "conversation" during our next meeting. Oh, did I mention that I assumed that the structure of our communication might change? No such luck. It was more of the same: continual and unremitting silence. In response to everything I brought up from her letter, Caitlin would smile or shrug or sometimes frown and shake her head. I was so desperate, that seemed like progress: at least now I could get a tentative yes or no in response to a question.

"Caitlin," I tried again, "you wrote in your letter that you live with your brother. How's that working out?" Shrug.

"Just okay? You mentioned in your letter that you were close." She nodded her head.

And so it went, another frustrating, laborious, tedious (did I mention frustrating?) hour.

Fast forward five months. I have now seen Caitlin every week at our appointed weekly time. We are talking now. Or at least I am mostly talking and she occasionally rewards me with an actual verbal yes or no response, and sometimes she even utters a whole sentence. But basically she does not say much—until she hands me a letter at the end of the session that basically answers every question I asked the previous session and even a few things I wondered about but had not yet broached. I have certainly never done therapy quite like this, and it sure is hard work, but I tell myself that she is coming back, so she must be getting something out of the experience.

Another few months go by and I eventually learn a lot about Caitlin's life and her predicament. Her physician has been increasingly concerned because of abrasions in her vagina and burns on her breasts, wounds that appeared to be self-inflicted. When I asked her about this, Caitlin immediately clammed up and would not talk about them at all, even in a follow-up letter. The doctor called a week later to tell me that he "fired" Caitlin as a patient, refusing to see her any longer. I assumed this was because she was playing the same kind of silent treatment games with him that she was acting out with me, but I was wrong. Apparently, Caitlin had been left alone in an examining room when a nurse unexpectedly entered and found her holding the thermometer that had been placed in her mouth underneath the flame of a lighter to artificially raise the temperature and fake a fever. All of a sudden things started to fall in place, and the doctor realized that he was dealing with a case of Munchausen syndrome in which Caitlin had been manufacturing various disorders and diseases all along as an excuse for attention. This was clearly a case for psychological treatment, way out of his domain—and firmly back into mine.

But this called into question everything that she had thus far told me in her letters. How much of this was really true? How much could I trust anything that she had related to me? If she had been willing to fake her various ailments, and lie about her symptoms, what was to say that anything about her history was true? How could I work with a client who was now identified as a chronic liar?

I'm hardly the first therapist to work with someone with Munchausen syndrome, or a factitious disorder, or a sociopath, or any other client who knowingly lies, but once these fabrications and deceit are uncovered, what are we to do with them?

After so many months invested in our relationship, I initially felt betrayed, just as I had with Jacob. But in Caitlin's case, I quickly realized this was one very vulnerable, terrified, disturbed young woman who was doing the best she could to hold things together. If she was willing to go to such extremes for attention and self-protection, what did that say about anything she would tell me in therapy? And how and when is it appropriate and safe enough to confront this issue directly?

I decided that I really did need to confront the issue of truth with Caitlin, not for my own satisfaction, but to make it possible for us to have a truly trusting relationship, maybe the first one in her life. I had by this point learned that there were all sorts of weird things going on in her family, lots of secrets and lies that had been kept hidden.

It was during the middle of one of our silent conversations that I took a deep breath and told Caitlin that I had a few things that I wanted to bring to her attention. One of the advantages of having a client who does not talk is that it is very easy to carve out time to say whatever I want and expect a fairly compliant audience. She cocked her head and actually made eye contact, signaling that she realized that something important was coming.

I told her everything that I had recently learned, that she had been making up her various ailments and faking the symptoms in order to visit the doctor, perhaps for attention and sympathy, or perhaps for other reasons that she might reveal. I presented specific, irrefutable behavioral evidence, complete with witnesses, so there would be no sense denying the "charges." Furthermore, I shared with her my concerns that all along she had been playing games with me, just as she had with the doctors giving me the silent treatment and refusing to talk (except in carefully constructed letters). She seemed to be taking this with relative calmness, so I went further and talked about how this made it difficult for me to trust her. I told her how much I cared about her, how much I wanted to know her better, how important it was for me to help her if she would let me, and how I was bringing all this up because it felt like we could never go much further unless we were more honest with one another. Maybe this is coming across as harsh, but I tried to be as gentle and loving as I could while bringing the deceit into the open. And I insisted on thinking about this as an issue of honesty in our relationship rather than as a pathological condition named after an obscure German baron.

Caitlin looked at me thoughtfully after I finished what I had to say. I fully expected complete silence and so was surprised—and delighted—that after close to nine months we had our first real face-to-face conversation. It was as if a door had been opened and she had decided to walk through and meet me, if not halfway, then a few tentative footsteps in my vicinity. For the rest of that session, and the few that followed, she told me about the sexual abuse she had experienced since she had been a child by her brother, the same brother who was still living with her, and still sneaking into her room at night. She admitted that she had been hurting herself, sticking objects in her vagina and burning her breasts with lit cigarettes, in order to discourage her brother from continuing to have sex with her. She talked about all the guilt she had been feeling and how she understood the meaning of the self-punishment. She even understood that her silence in her relationship with me was a way for her to maintain control, to take care of herself while in the room with a strange man who might hurt her the way she had been betrayed before.

Yes, I know what you are thinking: Was this true?

This time I can say, unequivocally and without reservation, yes, I am convinced that Caitlin did eventually trust me to risk revealing herself in a more honest and authentic way. How do I know that? Well, for one thing her symptoms disappeared. She moved out of the apartment where she had been living with her brother. She became functional in a whole host of other ways related to her work and other relationships. She confronted her brother, finally, and told him to never, ever come near her again or she would call the police. (I was able to get corroboration that this, in fact, did take place, and I was prepared to testify on her behalf.)

Yet would I be surprised if I ever learned that I had been scammed, that she made the whole story up, that she was still playing me—but simply changed tactics once I caught on to the previous game? Yes I would. I will never know of course. Most of the time we can never really know what is true and what is not. We have to live with this uncertainty and give people the benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise, we could never do this work or function at all.

Maybe you are not very surprised that there would not be much neat closure to our topic. You already knew there is no certainty in what we do, given the complexities and ambiguities or the territory in which we operate.

Clients Who Lie and Deceive

It is the client's job description in therapy to tell us what is going on as fully, completely, and honestly as possible, providing the most detailed and robust descriptions of complaints, life history, contextual features, and innermost thoughts and feelings. The reality of what we actually get from clients is less than ideal for a number of reasons. There are unconscious distortions and imperfect memories. Defense mechanisms operate to protect the client against pain, discomfort, and perceived attacks. Character traits may compromise trust and intimacy.

In a blog (psychcentral.com), psychologist John Grohol (2008a) asked people why they would ever lie to therapists. This was a question that he could never really understand. "If you lie to your therapist," he pointed out, "especially about something important in your life or directly related to your problems, then you're wasting your time and your therapist's time." He cites lies of omission as an example, such as a client saying he is depressed and uncertain why, yet failing to mention that his mother recently died. Or another example in which someone complains about low self-esteem but neglects to say that she binges and purges after every meal.

When Grohol first wrote his essay, musing about the ridiculousness of lying to the person who is paid to help you, he was completely unprepared for the barrage of clients who would respond on his blog. Here are a few representative reasons posted why people lie to their therapists:

I don't yet trust my therapist, partly because I'm not confident that this therapist has the skills or experience to handle my problems in the first place. (Adrivahni, January 9, 2008)

i lie to my therapist about what i'm feeling towards her. i'm embarrassed about these feelings, and when i do try to share them, they come out wrong. those are that i feel too dependent, that I want more than what she can give me, and that i find these feelings to be a sort of weakness in me. (Cameron, January 9, 2008)

We all lie to our shrinks, just like we lie to our dentists (Sure, I'll floss twice a day) and our mechanics (It's not so much a click as a drum roll). But the point of repeat visits to our shrinks is to allow for the time necessary to figure out what's a lie, what's a misconception, and what the truth (for that day) is. (Gabriel, January 10, 2008)

Dozens of other confessions led Grohol (2008b) to write a follow-up essay about common reasons to lie to your therapist. Contributions from him and from other sources (DeAngeles, 2008; Gediman & Leiberman, 1996; Kelly, 1998) identified several of the most common reasons for deception in therapy sessions.

Some Reasons Why Clients Lie

We have seen how lying is a natural and normal part of daily life, a practice that first begins about age 3 or 4 when we first learn we have choices about what we tell others, each presenting different consequences. Biologist Lewis Thomas once observed that if people stopped lying, the world would end, politicians would be arrested, media would be cancelled, and people would stop talking to one another. Lies, or at least half-truths and other fractions of complete honesty, allow trust to build. In therapy, deception is just another in a series of defenses that clients use to remain in control and to protect themselves.

Many, if not most, clients keep certain things from their therapists in order to present themselves in the best possible light. Whereas previously it was believed that lying or deceiving a therapist would only sabotage the treatment, it would appear as if clients may actually benefit by keeping some things private (Kelly, 1998). People lie to their spouses and partners, their family and friends, especially to coworkers and others in which favorable impressions are critical to continued success. It should come as no surprise that clients also lie to their therapists, a lot.

Fear of Shame and Humiliation

Let's face it: it is hard to talk about secrets, about sex, about mistakes and failures, about shortcomings, about feeling helpless to take care of one's own problems, about almost anything that people bring to sessions. It hurts.

Many clients lie to their therapists to avoid feelings of shame, embarrassment, and what they believe will be critical judgment by their therapists (DeAngelis, 2008). We may think of ourselves as neutral, accepting, and nonjudgmental, and advertise ourselves as such, but that does not mean that people actually believe us. And they aren't far wrong. The reality is that we are sometimes critical and judgmental (at least inside our heads) when clients do or say things that seem stupid, even as we keep the poker face in place, nod our heads, and pretend we do not care one way or the other.

Much of the content of therapy involves talking about things about which people feel most ashamed and embarrassed, and most reluctant to admit. It takes awhile for clients to warm up, to feel safe enough, in order to broach the subjects that are most sensitive. It is during this period in which the therapist is on probation that clients will take any steps necessary to risk greater vulnerability. When we think about it, it is absolutely ridiculous for us to anticipate anything different—that is, to actually expect a new client during the first few weeks to spill his or her guts and come clean with anything and everything that has been previously disguised or hidden. Lying during the initial (and subsequent) stages of therapy is not only normal but highly adaptive and healthy.

Disappointing the Therapist

Whether clients are afraid of disappointing their therapists, or whomever he or she represents as an authority or parental figure, there is often concern (or perception) that the naked truth will result in a loss of respect. One client explains why she lied: "For myself, one of my biggest problems has been worrying that I was letting my therapist or psychiatrist down in some way. I try to hide when I feel depressed, fearing that my mood is somehow going to wreak havoc on others. My therapist is a cognitive behaviorist and I used to fret that she'd think I hadn't been doing my homework. Also, she was so clearly concerned for my well-being that it upset me to come in when I was feeling lousy!" (MacNamarrah, 2008).

It is ironic, but all too often the case, that clients do not talk about what is really bothering them, or even cancel sessions when they need help the most. They believe that others—even someone who is paid to be helpful—cannot really handle their deepest secrets and innermost selves. In addition, therapists are required by law to report suspected (or confessed) cases of physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. We are also forced to act when there is a risk of harm to self or others. Then there are other illegal or moral transgressions that may have been committed in the past, or are still currently going on. It behooves such an individual to be less than completely forthcoming with anyone, much less a professional who is mandated to contact authorities.

Ignorance

Some clients, who are relatively unsophisticated about therapy, or about how change takes place, leave out all kinds of important stuff because they did not know it was particularly important. It wasn't exactly that they were lying as much as choosing to ignore, deny, or otherwise gloss over things that did not seem all that important—and besides, they are uncomfortable to mention.

Physicians are able to run all kinds of diagnostic tests—blood work, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), electrocardiograms (EKGs), ultrasound, urine analysis, biopsies, X-rays—because they do not fully trust self-reports as accurate data. We are left with what clients choose to tell us based on their beliefs about what is relevant, awareness of what they know and understand, and willingness to share information selectively. It is no wonder that we are operating with imperfect, flawed, and incomplete data. Even in cases of clear success, how confident do you feel that you really understood what was going on? How certain are you that the results reported were truly accurate? If you answer, unequivocally, that you are very confident, perhaps you should consider your own degree of honesty.

Living Alternative Realities

For those with personality or factitious disorders, lying is a way of life. It has become so habituated that the person actually comes to believe the fantasies that are spun; they become an alternate reality.

When Meghan first contacted me, it was in a letter she had written after discovering one of my books at a garage sale (the first book I ever wrote that she purchased for a dollar). At the time she was a teenager and we struck up a correspondence that lasted for 20 years. Meghan struggled with depression throughout most of her life, had contemplated and attempted suicide many times, never deciding on the best method to end her life.

I'm still not sure what role I played in her life, but I always responded to her letters with support and caring, encouraging her to stay in therapy and continue to work on herself. She ended up reading many of my books over the years and, each time, would send her comments and reactions. Over the years she also told me a lot of things about herself, sent photos, brought me up to date on her family and relationships, and occasionally asked for advice. Even though she was not a client, and I never actually met her, I felt a certain responsibility to be as kind as I could; there was obviously some kind of transference going on and I wanted to be careful.

Eventually I learned that much of what Meghan had told me over the years were lies. I believe the part about her depression and suicidal thoughts, but I discovered that the photos she sent me were of someone else, the stories she told me were fictions, and that she had even sent me e-mails masquerading as other people. It was a bizarre case that I did my best to extricate myself from, although every few years Meghan will contact me again in some other disguised form.

There are other people like Meghan in the world and you have met them, perhaps worked with them. Sometimes you recognize them before you are sucked into their fantasy worlds; other times (most of the time in my experience) you do not realize the level of deception until it is far too late. One of the reasons it is so difficult to detect such mendacity is because the individuals have managed to confuse lies from truth; they cannot seem to tell the difference.

Unlike Jacob, I did have the chance to confront Meghan directly (and repeatedly) about the games she had played over the years. After each instance of discovering a lie, she would first deny it, then apologize profusely and beg for another chance. I gave up trying to negotiate a more honest form of communication with her soon after she sent me a draft of her autobiography, which she claimed would soon be released by a major New York publisher (another lie). It was titled: "I Will Tell You No Secrets and Tell You All Lies."

As with Meghan, some clients are not really lying to "us" but to individuals we represent, whether transference objects or surrogate authority figures. When all is said and done, therapists are never going to be very good at detecting client lies. It is just not part of our constitution, or our training, in which so much of what we learn to do is build trust.

Given the uncertainty and doubt we must accept and live with related to our work, the question remains: How do we work with issues of deception and lies in therapy?

This excerpt from The Assassin and the Therapist: An Exploration of Truth in Psychotherapy and in Life was reprinted with permission from the publisher. For more information and to purchase the book, visit Amazon.com.

Psychotherapy with Medically Ill Patients: Hope in the Trenches

Psychotherapists who work with medically ill clients often feel adrift between two seas. One ocean is the fast-paced world of medicine, in which we, as medical consultants, must efficiently develop complete answers to complex questions. The other ocean involves the deep and dark undertow of emotions: our clients are often dealing with terrifying bodily limitations and unknown outcomes. As therapists, we are called upon to integrate and understand the hypomanic world of medicine, while helping our clients tolerate the unfair and arbitrary aspects of illness and, more ominously, the inevitability of death. Though providing psychotherapy to these clients can at times feel overwhelmingly tragic, it is the solace we are able to offer those beset with illness and death that makes the work so gratifying and meaningful.

As therapists we are privileged to have access to some of the most intimate recesses of the human mind. However, those of us who work with medical patients also have to bear the burden of our clients' concrete suffering. The toll on us is significant: having to tolerate the arbitrariness of illness can either make us cynical and scared, or jolt us into appreciating the finite aspects of life. Working with people beset by medical illness can make us, as therapists and people, able to appreciate life with all its benefits, limitations, joys and disappointments. Working with clients who are medically ill not only requires us to learn more about the seemingly distant and disembodied relational aspects of medicine, but also forces us to confront painful existential realities on a daily basis.

Illness in Psychology and Medicine

When I was not yet 30 years old and had been in private practice only a couple of years, I met Anne*, a pleasant and motivated 70-year-old whom I saw as an outpatient for mild depression. I had known her only briefly, but was very fond of her. Like many elders, Anne had gotten depressed after the death of her husband. Though she had not been in therapy before, she was open to learning how her mood might impact her ability to take care of herself. And like many older clients, she was unsure how talking could help her. But she often noted that after our meetings she felt better, even if she just talked about how she was struggling with getting used to taking care of the finances herself or how much she missed her husband. She also took our appointments very seriously.

One day, Anne uncharacteristically missed an appointment and I had been unable to get in touch with her. The next day, while at a nurse's station in the cardiology unit of the hospital I worked in, I saw her primary care physician, who had referred Anne to me. Upon seeing me, the physician said, “"Oh, Tamara, your patient, the older lady, she died two days ago. She had a heart attack." He then walked away as I stood at the chaotic nurse's station, stunned and tearful.” I had known Anne only a few months, but I had been feeling hopeful about her treatment. Given that she did not have any previous history of heart disease, I couldn't believe that she had died so suddenly.

Anne's death and her physician's manner of disclosure illustrate aspects of medicine that many of us in the field know all too well. The fast-paced, energetic facet of medicine in the U.S. can be characterized as being "hypomanic." Although I am referring loosely to the familiar Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders1 criteria of hypomania, my understanding of the intensely energetic nature of medicine is more akin to the ideas of Melanie Klein and what she called "manic" defenses. Briefly, Klein described manic defenses as when idealization, feelings of being powerful, and hyperactivity are employed to ward off sadness, worries about aggression, and ambivalence2. In other words, manic defenses are used to avoid difficult feelings. And since difficult feelings abound in medicine, energetic defenses offer a perfect antidote to sadness and loss.

Even minimal experience in the medical profession inevitably leads one to appreciate the consequences of a hypomanic culture. Particularly in hospitals, people talk fast, move fast, and think fast. Many healthcare workers are constantly engaged in goal-directed activity. Even in outpatient settings, patients remark that they spend only five to fifteen minutes with their physicians and commonly complain that doctors are pressed for time. This pressure- and speed-driven culture has a rational component: when a patient is critically ill, physicians and medical staff need to move quickly in order to administer urgent care, which could be life saving. Additionally, many physicians, especially those who work in inpatient settings, are chronically sleep-deprived due to the demands of long hours, call schedules, and other professional and personal responsibilities. In the outpatient setting, physicians are often tightly scheduled to see a large number of patients in a limited amount of time.

As medicine has advanced, the kinds of interpersonal connections within the profession have changed as well. Donald Winnicott described the way he noticed interpersonal differences as a result of modern medical practice:

It is a sad result of the advances in modern medicine that there is no personal clash between patient and doctor as whole persons; there is a visit to the doctor, a disease process found, treatment is given, and the disease is cured, but no one has met anyone, no one person has bumped into another person.3

What I experienced in my conversation with Anne's physician after her death seems to be a common symptom of modern medicine as Winnicott described. Medicine demands a great deal from its practitioners, and a hypomanic style in the personalities of medical professionals can be viewed as a kind of acculturation to seemingly endless demands. On the other hand, the perpetually fast pace in medical facilities also reflects a tendency and desire to not engage with patients in an emotional way.

Bodies Breaking Down: Challenges for Therapists

Although physicians often experience the hypomanic trappings of medicine, as therapists we are also subject to these intense pressures. When I worked in medical settings with a large number of clients both as inpatients and in my outpatient practice, I often found myself wishing I could offer something simple and concrete to ease my clients' suffering. But I also wanted to ease my suffering; at times it felt like helping people who were ill was too much to bear. Sitting with someone with a rare autoimmune disease who had a guarded prognosis and uncertain future, helping someone with lung cancer who was overwhelmed with self-blame regarding years of heavy smoking, or trying to soothe a young adult randomly afflicted with heart disease forced me to face the complex reality of health and illness: we can all try to take care of ourselves and do the right things in terms of our health, but the sad truth is there are many variables we cannot control. Even when clients might have endangered their health knowingly or unknowingly (as in the case of older adults with lung cancer, who grew up seeing physician advertisements for cigarettes), they still have to deal with the fact that illness has happened to them and that their body has let them down and they might not live—or, for some, live with limitations they may never have dreamed possible.

I felt more emotionally vulnerable regarding death and serious illness in my clients when I was younger. Especially then, I had a hard time knowing how to manage the feelings that were stirred up in me. This was probably exacerbated by the difficulties with mourning that are present in medicine, as I had little support in a culture in which people simply move on to the next task, even after someone dies.

One way my intense anxiety manifested at the time was that I frequently feared that I would develop the same diseases of those I was treating. Especially when I worked with people who had been subject to random or mysterious illnesses (often those thought not to have links to lifestyle behaviors), I worried that I too, would be subject to the same bad luck. When I was seeing large numbers of patients in the hospital, it often seemed unbelievable to me that anyone could be in good health, and not sick with some terrible disease! Clinicians I have supervised in hospital settings, in which they were working with severely ill people, have echoed similar sentiments. These feelings and anxieties seem especially prevalent in younger clinicians and those who have not experienced illness or death in their personal lives. However, all of us, in working with people with medical illnesses, need to come to terms with the intense anxieties and overstimulation that are associated with treating this population.

Though our feelings and experiences are filtered through our own psychology, there are many common reactions to working in medical settings and with clients who are severely ill. “Intense fear, anxiety, and thoughts and images of our own death are common reactions and not necessarily related to our own psychological problems; what we encounter is simply difficult to bear.” Serious illness and the possibility of death inherently evoke intense and disorganizing emotions in therapists when we are with our very ill clients. Since many people experience considerable shame in confronting these emotions, reinforced by a cultural mandate to move on, therapists need to create an internal and external space for these intense feelings. This involves a lot of interpersonal work, and often requires a lot of our own psychotherapy.

Those of us who work with medical patients suffer vicarious trauma. We don't talk about it much, as we are not so sure that our colleagues won't pathologize us. In fact, I felt quite misunderstood by a therapist I was seeing when I first started working with severely ill clients in a hospital setting. “When I tried to articulate my terror regarding seeing people my own age who were dying, my therapist interpreted these fears as "unrealistic."” My view was, how could my fears be unrealistic? The young people I was seeing had not engaged in risky lifestyle behaviors; they just were victims of bad luck. How was I to know that this could not happen to me?

Therapists who don't work with medically ill clients often remark that those of us who do have a skewed view of the world or that we don't have good boundaries between our clients and ourselves. Regarding the former idea, our colleagues are right. Therapists who specialize in work with medically ill adults primarily see people who have been subjected arbitrarily to illness. I did have a skewed view of the world, especially when I was younger. As I have gotten older, I realize that many medical illnesses are rare and unfortunate, and I feel privileged to have been able to help my clients at a time in their lives in which they needed someone who could tolerate randomness and unfairness of disease and illness, to acknowledge the potential of death, and most importantly to help them know they are not to blame. Indeed, many people feel that random illness must be caused by something they have done. Feeling that they have caused the illness is a way to believe that they can stop it. Sadly, this is not true. But the idea that we can predict and know of our potential to cause (and cure) our own illnesses is seductive.

A younger colleague, who works with people who have rare lung cancer, said to me recently, "When I cough, I think I have lung cancer." When she said this, I was reminded of the claims launched at me over the years by well-meaning colleagues: that my work was reducing me to a state of lowered boundaries, and that it was crazy to think I might be in the same boat as my clients. And though on one level I can understand these criticisms, on the other it feels so profoundly misplaced and misunderstood. As I said to my younger colleague, "Of course you feel this way. There is no way to work with such an unfairly beleaguered population and not feel scared about what this can mean for you. Bad things just happen."

Psychology, and especially psychoanalytic psychology, can be funny in that “we as therapists are "allowed" (especially in training) to indulge in whatever ideas and fantasies we might have about our own psychological problems, but we immediately pathologize whoever is talking if they have worries about their own bodily health”—they must be too "concrete," they must have some difficult psychological problem that allows them to somatacize. The reality, however, is the opposite of what people often perceive. When we work with medically ill people and are confronted with the random nature of illness and the cruel distribution of severe illness, it is natural that as therapists we would imagine ourselves in the same situation. After all, what else can be described as the true seed of empathy? And in my experience and those of students I know, it is this kind of empathy, "What would it mean if this were happening to me?" that is the most profound and ideal empathy we need to have inside of us to help our clients manage the painful and difficult aspects of illness they are confronted with.

The Difficulty of Engaging Clients

A few years ago I was teaching a class on psychodynamic perspectives of medical illness and mentioned a common phenomenon: many cancer patients who engage in therapy do so when they are in the active stages of their medical treatment (e.g., chemotherapy or radiation); once these stages are completed, many of them leave therapy. The therapists in the class who had worked with people with cancer laughed and seemed relieved to know that this is a common experience and not necessarily based on the therapist's individual psychotherapeutic style or practice.

While it is true that many people with medical illness (not just those who have cancer) present for psychological treatment in the more acute phases of illness and then leave when illness becomes chronic, is in remission, or in the best of circumstances, is cured, it raises the question of why this happens and how it affects the psychological health of people we try to help. One possibility is that those who are acutely ill and undergoing intensive kinds of treatment need acute and intensive psychological support, and once that phase of medical treatment is finished, they may feel that less intensive psychological treatment is needed. Although this rationale may appear to make sense, I have been surprised over the years at the number of people who have left psychotherapy after the acute phases of medical treatment, as some of these clients clearly had issues that would have benefited from longer-term psychotherapy. And even though it is true that some people, particularly those who have had psychotherapy in the past, might be inclined to continue with therapy after the acute phases of treatment, how are we to understand those who do not? And are there things we can do to increase the chance of engaging some of these people in a more meaningful and helpful therapeutic relationship?

People with medical illnesses are hesitant to engage in longer-term treatment with mental health clinicians for a number of reasons. As described, the culture of medicine and modern healthcare reflects a hypomanic culture in which "cures" are provided in a quick and often rushed manner. The practice of psychology within medicine, though valuable, offers a culturally inconsistent approach for people with severe medical illnesses. Even with the approaches often advocated within health psychology and medical care (specifically cognitive-behavioral approaches), the integration of psychology in medicine remains largely difficult.

Integration of psychological approaches and applications in healthcare has improved dramatically over recent years, yet psychological services are largely viewed as an elective treatment within the medical system. To some extent this makes sense. From a practical standpoint, many people undergoing medical care are overwhelmed with medical appointments, as well as the financial expenses involved in receiving care for an illness. Time and money spent on psychotherapy may not seem to be a priority. Physicians may not consider referrals to mental health professionals for those patients who seem to be coping well, even though therapy could be of great benefit.

However, even for people who have financial resources and time for it, therapy is often construed as not only elective, but also a burden. Psychotherapy requires a tremendous amount of resources, both internal and external. “People with severe illnesses are often taxed with the impact of bodily changes and decline, physical pain, and fear of death: surviving from day to day involves tremendous physical energy, and as a result, psychological energy that might be employed to address emotional issues is reduced.”

This relates to the idea that medical patients often present as being more psychologically "concrete." The term concrete has been associated with thinking in patients who are more severely disturbed, such as those who are psychotic or those with personality disorders. However, this way of viewing concrete thinking is very limited—and in itself concrete! A more modern perspective is that, especially under times of stress, we all can regress to a more concrete way of operating, and this is often the case with severe physical illness. In such states, we feel more sensitive to intrusions, more focused on pragmatic aspects of functioning, with less emotional space for reflection.

Trauma researchers have long known that traumatic events make it difficult for people to think in a symbolic way4. The burden is on us, as therapists, then, to help make space for symbolic thought, as opposed to demanding that our clients do so for us.

What Seems Concrete Is

Sara* was a 30-year-old doctorate-level professional when I met her. After a routine doctor visit, her physician had told her that she could not go back to work that day, but needed to be hospitalized immediately for dangerously low blood cell counts. She was diagnosed with leukemia. I met her a few days later in the hospital; she was referred for what her nurses described as almost nonstop crying and excessive controlling behaviors, such as continually asking the nurses to verify the accuracy of her medications, even when they had already told her what they were giving her and confirmed that the dosages were correct.

When I met with Sara, she was guarded and extremely anxious. Although she felt that she wanted help by talking with me, she appeared in genuine shock (as would be expected) but also panicked. When I suggested that she might feel overwhelmingly anxious, and that perhaps she even thought that the feelings she was having would cause her to die immediately, she agreed. She said that at times she felt that she could just "die right there," even though she knew she was getting treated for her disease. The panicked feelings made it difficult for Sara to cope in the hospital. Staff became increasingly concerned because she often asked for higher levels of anxiolytics and pain medications, presumably to manage her anxiety. Sara acknowledged that she just wanted to feel "numb." Although I had suggested an antidepressant, which might provide longer-term and more consistent relief from her symptoms, she refused, objecting that she did not want to feel "controlled" through medication.

As for my role while she was in the hospital, Sara was able to talk to some extent about her anxiety. However, discussions tended to focus on aspects of her life that needed to be managed and taken care of, such as who was paying her bills, what was happening in a recent financial transaction, and how others were managing her projects at work. And although I willingly discussed these topics with her, I felt as if there was little I could do to help ease her tremendous anxiety.

Sara's situation illustrates that when someone is overwhelmingly terrified in response to a serious and life-threatening illness, his or her ability to think about meaning is reduced. Sara's panicked state and her constant checking on the nurses prevented her from slowing down long enough to realize that she was not going to die immediately. They also prevented her from thinking about what she could do to help herself in her situation. She felt that her life was already over, even though she had a long road of treatment ahead of her. Feelings of hopelessness in medically ill clients are common and can be detected by a feeling of helplessness in the therapist, which I felt acutely while I was with her.

Sara attempted to manage her anxiety by becoming more watchful of her environment, including frequently checking that the nurses would not make any mistakes. Not only was Sara terrified and attempting to manage her terror, but I understood that underneath her need to be more in control of her environment was a sense of profound confusion regarding what was happening to her. Attempts at control were a way to reduce the confusion she felt. In her conversations with me, Sara felt the need to go over events in her life that she could not currently control as a way to try to maintain control. She was stuck in this way of thinking and needed me to give ample attention to these external events.

Talking about the more real issue of what she could not control (her body) was not possible, as it made her unbearably anxious and confused. Sara had been caught completely off guard by this diagnosis. As a relatively young woman, she'd had little experience with major illnesses or death. She had no risk factors for malignancies, something she eventually told me she often thought about. Not knowing why or how this had happened to her was a tremendous source of distress. The level of her confusion was so intense that at times she felt as if it would overwhelm her. This is one meaning of panic attacks that sometimes occur in people with medical problems; “anxiety, confusion, and feeling out of control become so powerful that people sometimes feel as if they will die then and there.” It is as if the idea, "Well, I might as well just die now," takes over. The price of such a way of thinking, however, is that Sara and others like her forget that they are still alive, and can maximize coping resources to fight their illness.

Although it is understandable that many people experiencing a life-threatening illness would be terrified, the kind of terror I am describing is the kind where one cannot find refuge in a logical reminder that they are not dying at that moment or that others are helping to keep them alive (meaning, in these cases, medical treatment). This is because the disorienting feelings in reaction to a traumatic illness can become overpowering. Sara could not find solace in the fact that she was being treated for a disease. Sara was so tortured by her anxiety that she feared others, even though these others were desperately trying to help her. She became wary and guarded.

Though I knew that the nurses and doctors caring for her at the time were extremely sympathetic, Sara could not absorb sympathy. Her fears had rendered her helpless, feeling paralyzed and tortured. In this state, no one can really be trusted. Additionally, in this state of mind, the act of thinking as well as having ideas, of any kind, can feel like torture. In other words, the process of thinking as we understand it can feel persecuting, because in a situation in which the body has failed, it is hard to know who to trust. Sometimes in such scenarios, people are even hesitant to access their own thoughts, as thoughts themselves (being present in one's mind) can feel equally as terrifying and persecuting.

This kind of state presents a unique problem to us as therapists, in that the people we may want to help the most are intensely (and often unconsciously) unable to take in what we have to offer. “Their terror becomes our cross to bear. In other words, the intense and barely known emotions become something we have to share and know in order to help. With Sara, I had to tolerate feeling helpless, enraged, outraged, and terrified about what was happening to her.” At the time I knew her in the hospital, she could barely acknowledge these feelings in herself. So I absorbed them and hoped for the best for her, and hoped as well that at some point she could feel her own emotional turmoil.

Sara did well with her medical treatment in the hospital, but was never able to follow up for therapy as an outpatient. And because of that, I can never quite be sure whether my work was helpful to her or not. Such is the case when working with people who are seriously ill. I do not know how Sara fared, or even whether she is still alive. This is another difficult fact of working with severely ill clients, especially in hospital work. As mental health clinicians, we are often not privy to the medical outcomes of those whose lives we become invested in. Clients struggling with illness can't necessarily follow-up in longer-term psychotherapy, for both physical and psychological reasons. As helpers in the world of medicine, we often have to tolerate not knowing whether our clients live or die.

Psychological Ramifications of Cancer Diagnoses

Most of us who are born without chronic illnesses take the functioning of our bodies for granted. When the body stops working in adulthood, this jars one's sense of self. And if the inside of the body does not work, it is very hard to know how and what to trust on the outside. Many cancer patients talk about the eerie feeling that cancer cells have been growing in their bodies without them knowing it. This may be related to both ideas and fears of cancer in our culture. Although heart disease is the number-one cause of death in industrialized countries, many people verbalize not a fear of heart disease, but of cancer.

This is most likely because the imagery associated with cancer, in which bad cells insidiously destroy good cells, resonates with the fear of the internal workings of the body being attacked by itself. This idea has roots in early developmental theories of childhood. Aggression is something we all struggle with as younger beings. Dependency, a sense of not being in control, and anger about that fact that we need to rely on others are facets of young childhood. When things go right in childhood, we can emerge relatively unscathed and able to tolerate our own (and others') limitations and need for dependency.

But when things don't go right, or when parents are preoccupied, we then struggle to tolerate the fact that at times we will need others. The sense that the body is attacking itself is common among clients with medical problems. When this feeling is excessive or pervasive, it can sometimes be a sign that, as children, these clients were often left alone to deal with angry feelings. These feelings can and do often come back to us as adults, especially when dealing with something amiss in the body that we cannot understand. “A sense that the body can attack itself feels like our own toxic anger is turning inward in ourselves, and results in disorientation and mistrust of people in the "outside" world. For some, this results in confusion, collapse, and a feeling that nothing can be trusted either internally or externally.”

Sara tried to remedy these disorganized, helpless, and out-of-control feelings by managing the nurses' behaviors with an attempt to control, in a literal way, what was being put into her body. Such patients need to be able to feel that they can control what we, as mental health clinicians, "put into" them as well.

In these situations, we need to tolerate the fact that due to a patient's suspicions and sense of terror, it may feel at times that we have little to offer. However, just being able to engage with patients like Sara goes a long way. It means a lot to listen and tolerate unbearable feelings when no one else can. People caught up in medical crises often cannot turn to their physicians, as their work requires a kind of detachment. Family members are often so scared themselves that they often tell me they can't bear to hear my clients utter anything other than positive statements. Thus, our clients need us to bear the confusion, terror and disorganization to which they are subjected.

Hope In The Trenches: The Meaning of Our Work

Janet*, a client of mine, died recently after a long battle with cancer. When I saw her for the last time, she told me she was scared of death, but relieved to have an end to her suffering. She grabbed my hand and said, "I can do this now. Thanks for helping me to know that I can let go." Our work together lasted less than a year.

I met Janet in the context of several medical problems while she lived in a skilled nursing facility, but in the process of our working together, she was diagnosed with recurrent cancer. Although she had been told that her cancer had not been cured, and that she would eventually die from the disease, she had convinced herself that her prognosis was otherwise. When she was told that her cancer was not only back, but raging with virulent intensity, I gently suggested that her lifespan was shorter than she had previously thought, and that she might want to say goodbye to those who were important to her. In the context of our relatively close therapeutic relationship, she could hear this, and no longer needed to be in denial about what would be her fate. She was able to say goodbye to those she loved, and was even able to say she was sorry to people she perceived she had hurt.

I could not continue to work with people who were enduring this kind of suffering unless it felt like there was some help I was able to provide, and it appeared that I had helped Janet to relinquish the denial she had so desperately clung to, and had eased her feeling that she was dying alone. These moments remind me of why I got into the practice of working with medical clients to begin with. And more importantly, when I come home every night to my husband, I am so grateful for what we have, now.

*Client names have been changed to protect confidentiality.

Excerpts from this article are taken (with permission) from Psychodynamic Perspectives on Aging and Illness, Springer, 2009. The paperback version of this book was released in June, 2010.

References

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th ed.; DSM-IV; American Psychiatric Association, 1994.
Klein M. (1940). Mourning and its relation to manic-depressive states. International Journal of Psychoanalysis, 21,125-153.
Winnicott, D.W. (1966). On cardiac neurosis in children. In R. Shepard, J. Johns, & H.T. Robinson (Eds.), Thinking about children. New York: Addison Wesley
van der Kolk, B.A., Hostetler, A., Herron, N., & Fisler, R.E. (1994). Trauma and the development of borderline personality disorder. Psychiatry Clinics of North America, 17, (4), 715-730.

Michael Yapko on Psychotherapy and Hypnosis for Depression

Understanding Depression

Rafal Mietkiewicz: Welcome, Dr. Yapko. I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk with you today. Let’t start off with the question of how do you understand depression? Where does depression come from?
Michael Yapko: Depression comes from many different places. There isn't a single cause for it; there are many contributing factors. And in a general way, the factors are grouped into three areas. There are biological factors that contribute: genetic contributions, biochemical contributions. There are psychological factors: your individual temperament, your coping style, your attributional style, your personal history, all those kinds of things and more. And then there's the social realm: the social factors that contribute to depression, the quality of your relationships, the culture in which you live. Those are all three contributive domains. Consequently, the predominant model in the field is called the bio-psycho-social model and simply acknowledges that there are many, many different factors that contribute. And it's because depression is a complex phenomenon, and the fact that there are so many different factors. When I started studying depression 30 years ago, we knew of only two risk factors—one was gender and the other was family history. Now we know there are dozens and dozens and dozens of risk factors, factors that increase your vulnerability to depression. And so we've learned a lot over the last 30 years.

RM: What is the role of childhood, including the first experiences of the child, along with family history?
MY: Childhood obviously is a time when socialization forces are the most intense. And so the quality of your attachments, the modeling that you learn from your family about how to cope with stress and adversity, the way that you are taught as a child to explain the meaning of life events are all factors that can make you quite vulnerable to depression. And so the childhood is important, but I think one of the things that we've learned quite well is that depression isn't about events that happen in people's lives. It's more about ongoing processes of how the person uses information, how the person forms relationships, how the person interprets the meaning of things that happen to them.
RM: Isn’t the way in which a person formulates interpretations determined by his own phenomenology, his own life history?
MY: It's partly determined by that, but socialization goes on your entire life. It doesn't stop when you're five years old; it doesn't stop when you're eight years old.
RM: Some people could say that these are the most crucial years, and that making any changes later is very hard.
MY: People could say that.
RM: Do you agree?
MY: Not entirely. If you look at the fact that some of the most successful therapies for depression never examine childhood, that should tell you something. You look at the three therapies that have the highest treatment success rate—cognitive therapy, behavioral therapy, interpersonal therapy—and right behind it, behavioral activation—none of those treatments focus on childhood.
RM: So, you’re saying you can cure people from depression without taking care of events that happened long ago in the past, without dealing with the big traumas?
MY: Clearly. It's not an opinion—look at the research. In fact, cognitive-behavioral therapy is the most widely researched treatment there is. And this is an approach that has no interest in the past. Now, people will come in and they will naturally talk about the past—"Here's what happened to me when I was eight years old." But a cognitive therapist is not going to sit around and talk about that in great detail, but rather will ask, "So what does that lead you to think, and how does it lead you to behave, and how can we change what you think and how can we change how you behave?" And guess what? It has the best treatment success. And when you look at the analytic approach, it comes in almost at the bottom of treatment success studies—for a reason. See, the problem is, it's a treatment model that you use with everybody, as if everybody's the same, as if everybody has the same pathway into depression. But in fact each person has their own individual pathway into depression. For one person, it's about failed relationships. For another person, it's about trauma as a child. For another person, it's about the surgery they just had and all the drugs they're on. And for somebody else, it's about the hormonal imbalance, and for somebody else it's because their diet is so terrible and they never exercise. There's no blueprint. The model of depression that came out of the analytic world was that depression was anger turned inwards.
RM: Yes…
MY: That was disproved 30 years ago.
RM: However, it’s still considered as something important and valid for many people…
MY: Well, that's wrong. You know, I rarely make a statement that's that flat. Usually there's an element of truth in something, and maybe the truth gets exaggerated, but the idea of depression as anger turned inwards has been disproved. It's an old, outdated concept that doesn't work in the face of modern research. And consider the fact, how many people get out of depression and stay out of depression without addressing anger and without addressing trauma and without addressing childhood. It's always interesting to me that when somebody says, "Well, I think exploring your past is vitally important." Okay. You think it's vitally important. That doesn't mean it is. You want to believe that? You can believe that. You're allowed. You can think whatever you want. But if we go into the realm of research and we compare different treatments and which ones have higher treatment success rates and which ones have lower treatment success rates, such as psychoanalysis—I don't mean to bash psychoanalysis in a global way—but if we ask the question, "Are there some treatments for depression that work better than others?" the answer is yes. It's not as if all treatments are the same. And when we look at which treatments are better, they're the ones that teach people specific skills, whether it's skills in how to use information, how to make decisions intelligently, how to form relationships in a way that's healthy, how to manage yourself and be self-efficacious, and learning skills of emotional self-regulation. And if you look at things that go on in analysis, they actually work against people getting better in two very specific ways. Part of the problem with people who suffer depression is they make meaning out of events and their style of making-meaning hurts them. So to give you a simple example, I call you. You're not home. I leave a message for you. I say, "Call me back."
RM: And I don’t.
MY: And you don't call me back. Now, if I'm a depressed person, how do I interpret that?
RM: Probably like “I’m not worthy…”
MY: "I'm not worthy, you don't like me."
RM: Yes…
MY: "You don't think I'm important. What's wrong with me? How come nobody ever likes me?" It's facing an uncertain or ambiguous situation and projecting negative meanings into it. Analysis is filled with making negative interpretations, negative projections in the face of uncertainty. "What does this dream mean? What does this symbol mean? What does this image mean?" And so much of what happens in analysis is teaching a person to make interpretations that are the same as the analyst. That doesn't help the person learn how to think and use information more critically. And then the second thing that happens in analysis, when we look at coping styles there's a particular style of coping called rumination: spinning things around and analyzing them and analyzing them and analyzing them, at the expense of taking effective action. And when you look at the people who ruminate, they have higher levels of anxious symptoms, more severe depressive symptoms. Ruminating, analyzing, works against getting better. Action is what helps people get better. And when you look again at the therapies that have the highest treatment success rates, it's not a coincidence that every single one of them gives homework. Every single one of them gives tasks to do in between sessions. Every single one of them emphasizes teaching specific skills, whether it's relationship skills, thinking skills, behavioral skills—but the emphasis is on movement, not analysis. That's why people in the other domains call it the analysis paralysis: instead of encouraging people to take effective action, instead, they spend more time thinking and analyzing and miss opportunities to do things that would help themselves.

Nobody Wants to be Depressed

RM: It sounds refreshing and optimistic, but I’m just wondering, if patients are willing to change their behaviors, learn new skills right away, are they ready for it– especially, when we consider secondary benefits from depression.
MY: Who said there are secondary benefits? You said that. I didn't say that. I don't believe that.
RM: You don’t believe the idea of secondary benefits from depression is true?
MY: No.
RM: Why not?
MY: Everything you experience has consequences. Everything. Going to a conference for five days has consequences. It means you're away from your family. Does that mean you want to be away from your family? You make choices. But to suggest that the consequences drive the pattern to me is so offensive because it blames the depressed person. Depressed people don't want to be depressed. What makes it look like secondary gain or secondary benefit is when you see depressed people who don't lift a finger to help themselves, the easiest conclusion is they must not want to change. They must be getting benefits from being depressed. And that is a fundamental misunderstanding that I wish people would let go of already. Nobody wants to be depressed. But the basis of depression is helplessness, hopelessness. Most depressed people don't go for help not because they want to be depressed, but because they don't think help will make a difference. Why would I go see a therapist if I believe that it's never going to help me? That's why depression has so few people who seek treatment. Only about 20 to 25 percent of depression sufferers seek help because they don't believe it's going to make a difference.
RM: So it sounds like you don’t really believe in the unconscious?
MY: You're going off in an entirely different direction now. Of course there are unconscious processes.
RM: I am not blaming a person for being depressed, or saying that it is the choice a person makes; however, there are many benefits of being depressed I could think of…
MY: But by saying it that way, you're suggesting that there is a motivation to stay depressed.
RM: Unconscious ones…
MY: And I'm suggesting that is incorrect. It's damaging. It's unfair to the patient. And it delays getting effective treatment. It's not a useful concept. And again, when you look at the therapies that work, none of them explore that domain because it is theoretically interesting but it isn't really what the nature of depression is about. And it's one of the things that every analyst needs to do, is be able to distinguish between their interest in a particular theory versus what the client's actual experience is. Instead of fitting the patient to the theory, how about if we learn something about how this person generates depression? It's a very different question—how does this person generate depression, instead of why. As soon as you ask why, you're now inviting theorizing.
RM: That is true to some extent.
MY: And what I'm interested in is, "Here's how this person does this. How can I interrupt that sequence so that instead of going from here to here to here to depression, can I introduce some new possibilities that move them in a new direction?"
RM: I see.
MY: That's the problem with when people make theories and then they actually believe themselves.
RM: What you are telling us is that you’re very concentrated on the individual, rather than generalized theories.
MY: Every person's different. And that's the point–
you have to generate a new theory for each person, instead of fitting the person to some preexisting idea.
you have to generate a new theory for each person, instead of fitting the person to some preexisting idea. And that's the problem with any approach that adapts the person to the theory instead of the reverse. And that's the danger for any model. You know, I wouldn't want a cognitive therapist to only read cognitive literature. I wouldn't want a behavioral therapist to only read behavior literature.
RM: The more you know the better for the patient?
MY: Yeah, when I said there are so many factors that have been proven to contribute to depression, it means that each practitioner needs to know something about genetics, needs to know something about epigenetics, needs to know something about biochemistry, needs to know something about social depression and the cultural contributions to depression, needs to know something about cognition, needs to know something about diet and exercise. You know, exercise has a treatment success rate that matches antidepressant medications and has a lower relapse rate. Now, that without ever saying a word to somebody. Doesn't that complicate the picture a little bit when you ask, "Well, how does somebody get better exercising if they never deal with their unconscious and they never deal with their traumas?" That's an important question.
RM: Good point!
MY: And that's where you would hope the people reading this would be curious enough to ask, "What is it that cognitive therapists have learned that have made the treatment so successful without doing any of the things that the people who are loyal to analysis think you should do?" And then, of course, part of the model is to dismiss it as superficial. "Well, that's not really therapy if they're only seeing people for six sessions." Well, you can take that position. It's a very arrogant position to take to say that you know what the right way is, other people are doing it the wrong way, when the other people actually have the data to show that it works better and lasts longer and prevents more episodes than any other approach.

Diagnosing and Treating Depression

RM: How long does it actually take you to cure someone from depression?
MY: When you look at the literature, you look at the science of what the studies have shown us, they're usually around 12 to 16 sessions.
RM: And these sessions are structured?
MY: They're structured and they're educational. There's a lot of teaching—what's called psychoeducation—that goes into the process of teaching people how to think and how to use information, how to think clearly. And the same is true with interpersonal approaches. Interpersonal psychotherapy has a treatment success rate that is even slightly higher than cognitive-behavioral. And it teaches relationship skills, social skills. And when you think about the skills that go into good relationships, and we've known for half a century that people who are in good relationships have lower ratings of depression. Why? And what are those skills that go into good relationships? And what about now, when we're seeing depression on the rise and relationships on the decline? So it's such a complicated picture, but spending more time thinking of depression as only in the person, only in the person's unconscious, misses that there are big cultural differences. There are big differences within demographic groups within one culture. And when you look, then, at how do families increase or decrease vulnerability to depression; how do marriages increase or decrease vulnerability; why is the child of a depressed parent so much more likely to suffer depression than a child of a non-depressed parent now that we know that the main reason is not genetic?
RM: Could you give some hints for beginning therapists on how to recognize a depressed client? It is pretty easy with major depression, but how to recognize the signs of it in ongoing therapy with a client who is experiencing moderate depression or dysthymia? And the second question is about masked depression: do you believe it exists and, if so, how do you recognize it?
MY: It's so interesting how your questions all contain the analytic viewpoint.
RM: Really?
MY: Where it's really hard for you to get outside that long enough to even ask the questions differently. But let's take the first…
RM: I wasn’t aware of this. Maybe that was my unconscious…
MY: Well, "masked depression"—nobody uses that phrase anymore.
RM: I’m sure I’ve heard it many times in Europe, where I live and practice.
MY: I understand, I understand. Well, there are people in New York who would probably use the same language—New York being one of the main centers where analysis is still practiced in the United States.

The first question was, "How do you recognize depression?" Depression takes many different forms, so there are many different ways to answer this. If you look at the DSM IV, which is our diagnostic system, there are 227 different symptom combinations that could all yield a correct diagnosis of depression. So depression is a soft diagnosis. It's not an easy diagnosis to make because of all these different combinations.. The United States government has been pushing physicians for almost 10 years now to recognize depression more frequently. When I said earlier that only 20 to 25 percent of depression sufferers seek help from a mental health professional, more than 90 percent of them have seen a physician within the last year, presented the symptoms of depression, and many physicians miss it. So the government's been asking physicians to just ask two questions. One question is about mood; "Have you been feeling down, sad, blue, or depressed for the last month or more?" And the second question is about anhedonia, or the loss of pleasure; "Have you lost interest in the things that usually interest you, or have you stopped deriving pleasure from the things that normally give you pleasure?" Now, if somebody says yes to one or both of those questions, it doesn't automatically mean they're depressed, but it leads you to take a closer look.

Sleep disturbance is the single most common symptom of depression, and the most common form of insomnia is early morning awakening, what's called terminal insomnia because it interrupts the terminal phase of sleep. But there are other symptoms as well. People who are depressed are most often suffering a coexisting condition. Anxiety disorder is the most common coexisting condition, but there are others including substance abuse problems—alcohol especially—medical problems, and personality disorders. So that complicates the diagnosis. But when you're talking with somebody who is feeling hopeless and helpless—the two biggest characteristics of depression—it leads you to look more closely.

Now, the second question was about so-called "masked depression." And the reality is that moods fluctuate. Depressed people aren't in the same level of depression every hour of every day. Typically there fluctuations, times when they feel a little worse—early morning, for example—times when they feel a little better, times when today they're feeling optimistic, and tomorrow they feel rotten again. Today they can barely get out of bed; yesterday they had a good day. So what is a masked depression? The assumption is that the depression is being hidden by some other symptom or some other behavioral pattern. And a good diagnostician, someone who understands what depression looks like in all of its different forms, would simply say instead of "masked depression" that this person has a comorbid condition. They have another coexisting issue, whether it's an anxiety disorder or alcohol abuse or something like that.
RM: It’s obvious for me right now that you don’t deal with the matter of transference and countertransference, but let me ask you about the role of the relationship between you and the patient.
MY: There are over 400 different forms of psychotherapy, and every single one of them emphasizes the importance of the relationship. If you don't have the connection with the person, then how do you attain the level of influence that it takes to teach them new skills, to motivate them to follow homework assignments, to share your sense of optimism that their life can be different if they do some things different and learn some things differently and approach some things differently? So for me, and I think any therapist would say this, the relationship is critically important.

Learning from People’s Strengths

RM: Let’s move to the area of core techniques. You write about so many different techniques that are useful with working with depressed persons. I’m wondering what are your favorite techniques.
MY: Well, my favorite technique is the one that works.
RM: You’re not attached to techniques.
MY: For me, what defines the work that I do is I respond to these questions. First question: "What is the goal? What does this person want?" And secondly, "What are the resources they're going to need to do it? What specific skills will this person need in order to be able to do this?" You know, I think one of my unique contributions to the field has been in asking how people do things well. Studying how somebody becomes depressed, asking the question, "Why does somebody become depressed?" Okay, that's interesting….
RM: But it’s half-baked?
MY: Yes. What I'm really interested in is people who have faced adversity and didn't become depressed. Why didn't they become depressed ? What's different about the way they think about it? How do they cope differently? For somebody who had a difficult family life or had traumas as a child but didn't become depressed, why not? And you can do one of two things. If you are prone to pathologizing people, then you would say, "Oh, they're in denial and they have great defense mechanisms." And if you're more focused on the strengths of people the way I am, then you say, "Okay, how do I understand these strengths so that I can teach the same strengths to other people?"
I'm focused on what's right with people rather than what's wrong.
I'm focused on what's right with people rather than what's wrong.

So when I encounter somebody who's been through a terrible set of experiences and they're strong and they're motivated and they're positive and they're happy, I don't look at that as a defense. I look at that as health. I want to know how they did that so I can teach it to somebody else. So that's where the techniques that I've developed come from: studying people who cope well in the face of adversity, the people who manage intense stress well, who have lost people and then managed to love again instead of saying, "I'll never love again." The people who fall down and get back up again. And I think there's much, much, much more to learn from them than there is from analyzing people and talking everyday about how bad they feel and how crummy their childhood was. What a waste of time! It's like putting 10 people together in a group who all have airplane phobias. Now you have the blind leading the blind. You're not going to learn anything about how to get on an airplane comfortably by sitting in a room with nine other people who have the same fear you do.
RM: From your point of view the most they could do is just share similar experiences?
MY: There's so much that goes on in the name of therapy that's simply silly. So my focus is, "Okay, here's somebody who has a particular skill that helps them. This person could learn that skill and benefit from it." The techniques that I put in the books are about, "How have I found ways to teach somebody that skill?" Life is filled with uncertainties. The example that I used earlier: I call you, you didn't call me back–it's unclear why you didn't call me back. It is a skill to prevent myself from interpreting it negatively and saying, "He must not like me," because then I'll feel rejected and I'll feel hurt. But for all I know, you had an emergency, and simply forgot to call me back, or somebody else took the message off the answering machine and never gave it to you. But for me to interpret that it's evidence that you don't like me is a big jump, and one of the most important skills you can learn in life is to be able to recognize and tolerate uncertainty.
RM: Changing thinking and the way we make attributions will also affect our feelings or emotions?
MY: That's certainly a big part of it. Well, think about it. You apply for a job. You don't get the job. What does it mean? Well, if you're sensitive about your age, you'll say, "Well, it's because of my age." and if you're sensitive about your gender, you'll say, "Well, it's because of my gender." But you don't know that. You're never going to know that they hired the boss's nephew. You're never going to know that. So to form these explanations that hurt you is what depressed people do very, very well. So one of the skills is knowing when to analyze something and when not to. To be able to make a distinction, what question is answerable and what question can I ask that no amount of research is ever going to generate an answer to? When this woman is depressed because her two-year-old son died from leukemia, and she says, "Why did this happen?" Is there any answer you can give her that's going to make her feel okay?
RM: I guess not.
MY: What can you say? It's a tragedy. And the last thing that you want to do is say, "It happened because you had a drink when you were four months pregnant." We don't know that. Now, can she still find meaning in it that helps her? Can she say, "I want to start a support group for other mothers who have lost young children"? That would be a great thing to do. But it's different than asking, "Why did this happen to me?" It's a very different question than "What can I do about this that will enhance my life?"

Using Metaphors and Hypnosis in Therapy

RM: Let’s talk a while about metaphors.
MY: Okay.
RM: Do you like using metaphors? Do they just pop right into your head or is it hard work to make a metaphor?
MY: I wouldn't say it's hard work. The metaphors are all around us all the time. But let me back up a second. I like the use of metaphor, but not for everybody. And again, techniques don't have any value by themselves. What gives them value is the client. It's not the technique that works. It's the relationship between the technique and the person. No technique is worth anything if the relationship doesn't support it. There are people who will listen to the story and they'll be entertained by it; they'll find it interesting, but they won't learn anything from it.
There are some people who don't value deep thought; they're much more interested in who's going to win the big game this week.
There are some people who don't value deep thought; they're much more interested in who's going to win the big game this week. And then there are other people who listen to the story and they see a deeper meaning in it. What drives metaphor, what makes metaphor valuable, is when you have somebody who engages in what's called a search for relevance. They're willing to actively engage with the metaphor and ask themselves, "How does this apply to me? What can I learn from this? What can I learn from this other person's experience or from this situation?" But not everybody does that. There are some people that the metaphor goes in one ear and out the other, and they just don't think about it.

But the point about the use of metaphor—it has become so basic in the practice of hypnosis to be able to absorb people in a story and encourage multiple-level processing. The conscious understanding, and then stimulating the unconscious processes of the person to build new understandings, build new associations. I'm obviously a big fan of hypnosis. Many of my books are about hypnosis. And hypnosis is such an extraordinarily powerful context for teaching people things and helping people get focused on and absorbed in new ideas and new possibilities. And it helps to understand that hypnosis cures nothing. It's what happens during hypnosis that has the potential to be therapeutic—the new understandings the person develops, the new associations they form in their mind, the new perspectives that evolve for this person as they go through the hypnotic experience. So the hypnosis itself, where metaphor is most commonly used, simply provides a context in which this person can learn things in a much more concentrated way.
RM: You said during your lecture that the viewpoint that hypnosis cannot be used with psychotic patients is wrong…
MY: Somebody asked me that question. My answer was, "Of course it can."
RM: Yes. How so?
MY: There's a distinction that I make between formal hypnosis and informal hypnosis. Formal hypnosis, where you identify this procedure as hypnosis—"Now we're going to do hypnosis. Sit back, close your eyes, focus." But you don't need the announcement for hypnosis to occur. Every time you immerse someone in memory, you're doing age regression. Every time you say to somebody, "I want you to stay focused right here, right now, as you remember," you're doing dissociation. Every time that you focus someone on their feelings, you're focusing them. Every time that you offer interpretation, you're giving a suggestion. And the use of suggestion and how to use suggestion skillfully is what the study of hypnosis is about. But there's no form of treatment—especially analysis, which is a highly suggestive approach—where you're not using suggestions routinely. So the question is how much deliberate focus you create.

I worked in an acute care psychiatric hospital for three years, working with very psychotic patients, very chronic patients. Now with some of them, they could focus long enough, five minutes, ten minutes to actually, "Sit back, close your eyes, let's do an exercise here." And then there are others where it was just being very deliberate about getting their attention for a moment to say something in a way that would focus them and introduce another possibility. Now, that's not formal hypnosis, but it's using the same patterns, the same principles of hypnosis. And so that's what I was talking about.
RM: It seems like everyone can benefit from this form of treatment, this approach.
MY: Yes. What I'm really saying is, I don't know how to separate psychotherapy from hypnosis. They're so merged together because, you know, if you give me a transcript of one of your analytic sessions, I promise you I can highlight suggestion after suggestion and tell you what kind of response that suggestion was trying to create.
RM: So every psychotherapy is partly hypnosis.
MY: Involves suggestion, yes. And what hypnosis involves is the focused use of suggestion. For example, the most empirically supported application of hypnosis is in the realm of behavioral medicine, using hypnosis for pain management. Now, the idea that you can do hypnosis to create anesthesia with someone through language, and this person can now go into an operating room, have their body cut open, and have surgery—that's remarkable. But that's what I do, and that's what many people who practice hypnosis do. Here in the United States, I don't think there's a behavioral medicine program in the country that doesn't have people doing hypnosis, because it is so effective in helping people manage pain with reduced or no medication, to prepare people for surgery so they have better and faster recoveries, and fewer postsurgical complications.

And hypnosis now is such an obvious contributor to our understanding of the brain, and the relationship between brain and mind, because it's an obvious research question: "What changes in a brain when someone is able to go into hypnosis, generate an anesthesia, and have a surgery?" Using fMRI scanning techniques, PET scans, SPECT scans, the person has a scan, then they go through hypnosis and some procedure and then they have another scan, and you literally watch how their brain changes. We're learning about how brains change in psychotherapy or through suggestive procedures, whether it's cognitive therapy or some kind of hypnotic protocol. But the fact that hypnosis is now at the heart of the new neuroscience, this is how fields advance.

No form of therapy that I'm aware of doesn't include suggestion as a basic part of its procedures.
No form of therapy that I'm aware of doesn't include suggestion as a basic part of its procedures. Even the suggestion, "If you lie on the couch, you'll feel better. If you talk about your dreams, you'll feel better. If you feel your deep, innermost thoughts, you'll feel better." That's a suggestion. That "if you come here four times a week and talk about these things, you'll get better in a couple years"—that's a suggestion. And to say to somebody, "It'll take you a couple years to do this," is a very powerful suggestion. Because what you're now telling the person is, "You really shouldn't start to feel any better any sooner than that."
RM: That’s a strong statement.
MY: "And if you do start to feel better sooner than that, then that's a problem. That's a defense. That's a flight to health." It's an unusual way of framing it. But the point is, how is it that somebody can practice a form of therapy and not understand the role they play in how the therapy proceeds? That it's not just uncovering what's in the person. There are two people in the room; you're influencing this person whether you realize it or not. And the danger for me is when people are influencing someone and they don't realize it. It's like the big controversy we had here in the United States 15 years ago, about false memories.
RM: Oh, yes.
MY: You had therapists who didn't know that by digging for the memories, they could actually create them. They thought they were just uncovering memories. They didn't know that they were influencing what kind of memories came up and what the quality of those memories were. That's what's dangerous. That's when therapy goes badly–when people don't recognize they are a fundamental, unavoidable part of the process.
RM: It seems obvious that every therapy approach would benefit from learning something about hypnosis and suggestions…
MY: I certainly feel that way, yes.
RM: Can this approach be combined with any other therapeutic approaches?
MY: Well, it isn't a therapy, so the answer is yes. It is routinely incorporated by practitioners who use hypnosis in different ways. There is one form of hypnosis called hypnoanalysis, where therapists use hypnosis to enhance the processes of psychoanalysis. There are others who do cognitive-behavioral hypnotherapy, and they're doing hypnosis from a cognitive-behavioral framework. You name it and there are people who are doing it. So hypnosis isn't really a therapy.
RM: It isn’t an approach either.
MY: It's a tool. It's a way of organizing ideas, it's a way of delivering information, it's a way of creating a context where this person can listen to what you have to say and can talk about what they need to say. So how any one therapist would use the principles of hypnosis—that's going to be up to them. It's the equivalent of learning a language, and then each person expresses themselves in their own way. So some people will use hypnosis to give commands to someone: "You will do this, you will do this, you will do this." Personally, that's not my style, and I don't particularly care for that style. There are other people who simply introduce possibilities: "You might want to think about this."
RM: And this is your style.
MY: It's closer to my style.. The reason why I think people should study hypnosis is because hypnosis has studied the quality of communication between a therapist and client. It studies whether your approach should be more direct or more indirect, whether you should be more positive or more negative, whether you should give more detail or less detail, whether you should be more directive or less directive. It teaches you flexibility in how to adjust your style to the patient's need—"How does this person process information so that I can present information to them in a way that fits?"—as opposed to fitting the client to, "This is my theory, this is what I do. And if you don't benefit from it, it's because you're really sick."

Surprising Origins, Unexpected Discoveries

RM: All right. Let’s finish with the question that is usually asked at the beginning of an interview. What stirred your interest in depression, and how did your understanding and ways of treating patients evolve during that time?
MY: When I was studying and getting my degrees, it might interest you to know that I spent my first four years studying psychoanalysis and learning to speak that language fluently. I understand psychoanalysis. I've studied it at one of the finest academic institutions in the United States, the University of Michigan, which was at the time a very heavily psychoanalytic school.
RM: So it’s not like you’re rejecting some ideas that you’ve just heard about, but you’re rejecting ideas that you know profoundly well.
MY: I do definitely, profoundly. Some of the most distinguished analysts in the United States were my professors. But I was moved by the fact that depression was and still is the most common mood disorder in United States–indeed in the world. And there were no good treatments for it. A depressed person is never going to go into analysis anyway—they don't have the frustration tolerance, they don't have the ability to feel bad day after day after day for years waiting for the therapist to say something helpful—the problem doesn't fit the solution. Analysis isn't going to be valuable for most depressed people. They want an answer and they want it now. They want to feel better now. And it's part of the pattern of depression to want it now—it's called low frustration tolerance. Do we say, "Well, that's part of the problem and we shouldn't have to change what we do to fit their problem?" To me that is the opposite response I have, which is, "How do I help this person from within their own framework, instead of expecting them to somehow magically come to my framework?"

At that time, cognitive therapy was in its absolute infancy. It wasn't well developed yet. There were no good therapies, and there were no good drugs. And so to watch people suffer in depression, and to know that nobody's doing anything that really makes a difference, for me it was a challenge. "Can I make a contribution here? Here's the most common problem, and I want to be able to do something about it."
RM: You wanted to have some influence. You wanted to be able to help these people.
MY: I wanted to be able to help. I wanted to be a true clinician and help as many people as quickly as possible. And so the idea of developing short-term interventions was obvious in importance. It's how people use therapy. It's interesting that when you look at the studies of people in therapy, the average number of sessions is between six and seven. The most common number of sessions is one. Can you really do therapy in one session? You saw a video of my work, with 10-year follow-up.
RM: Yeah, it was pretty amazing.
MY: So what does that do to the psychoanalytic viewpoint? It challenges it. And that's the point–you can either dismiss it, or you can say, "There's something here worth studying," depending on how open and how flexible you are. If you're rigid, you pathologize it. If you're open, you say, "There's something there worth studying." And so I was very interested in studying people who have recovered from depression, and asking "What made the difference? What helped you overcome all the helplessness and hopelessness and all of that? What changed for you? How did you cope? How did you learn? How did you relate? How did you, how did you, how did you?" What I realized very quickly when I got into clinical practice was that
everything that I had been studying for the last four years was irrelevant in the real world.
everything that I had been studying for the last four years was irrelevant in the real world.
RM: I think you had a lot of courage to make such a statement.
MY: To me it didn't seem like courage. It just seemed like common sense, that one of two things is going to happen: I'm either going to build my own little world and try to bring people to it, or I'm going to go out into the world and talk to people in terms of the way they think and the way they do things. So to me it didn't seem like courage—it seemed like common sense. And it took me years to unlearn everything I learned.
RM: Everything? Or is there anything left?
MY: If you ask me today, is there one thing that I learned then that I still use? I can't think of a single thing. It took me a long time to unlearn that because I had been intensely trained to continually look for symbolism, to continually look for deeper meaning, to continually speculate about unconscious needs and wishes. And those were all things that got in my way of actually helping desperate people who needed help now.
RM: Thank you very much for this very inspiring conversation. I hope our readers will enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed talking with you.
MY: Well, predictably, readers are going to react in one of two ways. They're either going to get angry and conclude I don't know what I'm talking about, or hopefully they'll say, "Maybe now would be a good time to start to explore what other people have to say about dealing with these same problems," because then the question becomes "What is the most effective way to treat depression?" And there's no single answer for that.

But it's certainly interesting that, of the many different therapies that have good treatment success rate, it's interesting that none of them analyze childhood. None of them focus on symbolic meanings of things. All of them teach skills. All of them have an orientation towards the future that help the client come to understand how the future can be different in very specific ways. So instead of saying that the goal is insight, saying that the goal is change–that poses a direct challenge. And typically when people are challenged, they either get angry or they get open. I'm hoping at least some of the readers will get curious enough to see what else is going on that might inspire them to change some of what they do in ways that they feel good about.
RM: Any concluding remarks that you want to share with the therapists who might read this interview?
MY: You know, I am a clinician. I am treating the same kinds of patients, maybe even more severe patients than the average clinician treats. And I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for people who make psychotherapy their profession. It's almost as if it's a calling. You want to do something to reduce human suffering, and you are forced to make decisions about how you're going to practice and what the goals of practice are. Is the goal to be loyal to a theory, or is the goal to make a difference? Is the goal to continually filter things in life through your preexisting beliefs, or is the goal to be open and curious about what other people are doing to see if what they're doing works better? And for me, everything that I've learned has come from studying people who do things well, recognizing that they have abilities and strengths—even the people I treat who are severely depressed. Okay, they're depressed; it doesn't mean they're stupid. They have great wisdom, they have a great many skills, and we can learn from those. And especially from the people who handle things well, what can we learn from them? So if somebody recovers well from a loss, instead of saying they're in denial, why aren't we studying how they did that? When somebody bounces back from an adversity, why are we saying that's a defense mechanism instead of an asset? I firmly believe that what you notice and what you focus on, you amplify. And if you focus on pathology, you'll find it. And if you focus on strengths, you'll find them. So I would simply encourage therapists to look for what's right. I think they'll be better clinicians for it.
RM: You’ve raised some mind-opening questions at the end of our conversation. Thank you very much. It was a huge pleasure.
MY: Thank you. It was my pleasure.