Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving

Editor’s Note: Following is an adapted excerpt from Pete Walker’s latest book, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving—A Guide and Map for Recovering from Childhood Trauma. For more information about treating Complex PTSD (CPTSD) and managing emotional flashbacks, read a previously published article by Pete Walker here

Attachment Disorder and Complex PTSD

Many traumatologists see attachment disorder as one of the key symptoms of Complex PTSD. In the psychoeducational phases of working with traumatized clients, I typically describe attachment disorder as the result of growing up with primary caretakers who were regularly experienced as dangerous. They were dangerous by contemptuous voice or heavy hand, or more insidiously, dangerous by remoteness and indifference.

Recurring abuse and neglect habituates children to living in fear and sympathetic nervous system arousal. It makes them easily triggerable into the abandonment mélange of overwhelming fear and shame that tangles up with the depressed feelings of being abandoned.

A child, with parents who are unable or unwilling to provide safe enough attachment, has no one to whom she can bring her whole developing self. No one is there for reflection, validation and guidance. No one is safe enough to go to for comfort or help in times of trouble. There is no one to cry to, to protest unfairness to, and to seek compassion from for hurts, mistakes, accidents, and betrayals. No one is safe enough to shine with, to do “show and tell” with, and to be reflected as a subject of pride. There is no one to even practice the all-important intimacy-building skills of conversation.

In the paraphrased words of more than one of my clients: “Talking to Mom was like giving ammunition to the enemy. Anything I said could and would be used against me. No wonder, people always tell me that I don’t seem to have much to say for myself.”

Those with CPTSD-spawned attachment disorders never learn the communication skills that engender closeness and a sense of belonging. When it comes to relating, they are often plagued by debilitating social anxiety—and social phobia when they are at the severe end of the continuum of CPTSD.

Many of the clients who come through my door have never had a safe enough relationship. Repetition compulsion drives them to unconsciously seek out relationships in adulthood that traumatically reenact the abusive and/or abandoning dynamics of their childhood caretakers. For many such clients, we are their first legitimate shot at a safe and nurturing relationship. If we are not skilled enough to create the degree of safety they need to begin the long journey towards developing good enough trust, we may be their last.

Emotional flashback management, therefore, is empowered when it is taught in the context of a safe relationship. Clients need to feel safe enough with their therapist to describe their humiliation and overwhelm. At the same time, the therapist needs to be nurturing enough to provide the empathy and calm support that was missing in the client’s early experience.

Just as importantly, the therapist needs to be able to tolerate and work therapeutically with the sudden evaporation of trust that is so characteristic of CPTSD. Trauma survivors do not have a volitional “on” switch for trust, even though their “off” switch is frequently automatically triggered during flashbacks. In therapy, the therapist must be able to work on reassurance and trust restoral over and over again. I have heard too many disappointing client stories about past therapists who got angry at them because they would not simply choose to trust them.

As the importance of this understanding ripens in me, I increasingly embrace an intersubjective or relational approach. That means that I believe that the quality of the clients’ relationship with me can provide a corrective emotional experience that saves them from being doomed to a lifetime of superficial connection, or worse, social isolation and alienation.

Moreover, I notice that without the development of a modicum of trust with me, my CPTSD clients are seriously delimited in their receptivity to my guidance, as well as to the ameliorative effects of my empathy. In this regard then, I will describe four key qualities of relating that I believe are essential to the development of trust, and the subsequent relational healing that can come out of it. These are empathy, authentic vulnerability, dialogicality and collaborative relationship repair.

1. Empathy

I used to assume that the merits of empathy were a given, but I have sadly heard too many stories of empathy-impoverished therapy. In this regard, I will simply say here that if we are hard and unsympathetic with our clients, we trigger the same sense of danger and abandonment in them that they experienced with their parents.

In terms of a definition, I especially like Kohut’s statement that: “Empathy involves immersing yourself in another’s psychological state by feeling yourself into the other’s experience.”

When I delve deeply enough into a client’s experience, no matter how initially perplexing or intemperate it may at first seem, I inevitably find psychological sense in it, especially when I recognize its flashback components. In fact, I can honestly say that I have never met a feeling or behavior that did not make sense when viewed through the lenses of transference and traumatology.

Empathy, of course, deepens via careful listening and full elicitation of the client’s experience, along with the time-honored techniques of mirroring and paraphrasing which show the client the degree to which we get him.

Noticing my subjective free associations often enhances my empathic attunement and ability to reflect back to the client in an emotionally accurate and validating way. When appropriate, I sometimes share my autobiographical free associations with the client when they are emotionally analogous. I do this to let her know that I really empathize with what she is sharing.

Following is an example. My client tells me with great embarrassment that she stayed home all weekend because she had a pimple on her nose. She is ashamed of the pimple and of her “vanity’’ about it. She moans: “How could I be so stupid to let such a little thing bother me?” I suddenly remember cancelling a date once when I had a cold sore. At the time, I also got lost in a toxic shame attack. I share this with her, minus present day shame about it. She tears up and then laughs, relieved as her shame melts away. Months later, she tells me that her trust in me mushroomed at that moment. Guidelines for being judicious about this kind of self-disclosure will be discussed below.

Of the many benefits of empathy, the greatest is perhaps that it models and teaches self-empathy, better known as self-acceptance. To the degree that we attune to and welcome all of the client’s experience, to that same degree can the client learn to welcome it in her- or himself.

2. Authentic Vulnerability

Authentic vulnerability is a second quality of intimate relating which often begins with emotionally reverberating with the client. I have found that emotional reflection of the client’s feelings is irreplaceable in fostering the development of trust and real relational intimacy.

Emotional reflection requires the therapist to be emotionally vulnerable himself and reveal that he too feels mad, sad, bad and scared sometimes. Modeling vulnerability, as with empathy, demonstrates to the client the value of being vulnerable and encourages her to risk wading into her own vulnerability.

I came to value therapeutic vulnerability the hard way via its absence in my own therapy with a therapist who was of the old, “blank screen” school. She was distant, laconic and over-withholding in her commitment to the psychoanalytic principle of “optimal frustration.” Therapy with her was actually counter-therapeutic and shame-exacerbating for me as we reenacted a defective child/perfect parent dynamic.

Therapeutic Emotional Disclosure
Thankfully, I eventually realized that I had unresolved attachment issues, and sought out a relational therapist who valued the use of her own vulnerable and emotionally authentic self as a tool in therapy. Her tempered and timely emotional self-disclosures helped me to deconstruct the veneer of invincibility I had built as a child to hide my pain. Here are some examples that were especially helpful. “God, the holidays can be awful.” “I get scared when I teach a class too.” “I’m so sorry. I just missed what you said. I got a little distracted by my anxiety about my dental appointment this afternoon.” “I feel sad that your mother was so mean to you.” “It makes me angry that you were so bullied by your parents.”

“My therapist’s modeling that anger, sadness, fear, and depression were emotions that could be healthily expressed helped me to renounce the pain-repressing, emotional perfectionism in which I was mired.” With her, I learned to stop burying my feelings in the hope of being loved. I renounced my just-get-over-it philosophy and embraced vulnerability as a way of finally getting close to people.

I needed this kind of modeling, as so many of my clients have, to begin to emerge from my fear of being attacked, shamed or abandoned for feeling bad and having dysphoric feelings. In order to let go of my Sisyphean salvation fantasy of achieving constant happiness, I needed to experience that all the less than shiny bits of me were acceptable to another human being. Seeing that she was comfortable with and accepting of her own unhappy feelings eventually convinced me that she really was not disgusted by mine.

The therapist’s judicious use of emotional self-disclosure helps the client move out of the slippery, shame-lined pit of emotional perfectionism. Here are some self-revealing things that I say to encourage my clients to be more emotionally self-accepting. “I feel really sad about what happened to you.” “I feel really angry that you got stuck with such a god-awful family.” “When I’m temporarily confused and don’t know what to say or do, I…” “When I’m having a shame attack, I…” “When something triggers me into fear, I…” “When my inner critic is overreacting, I remind myself of the Winnicottian concept that I only have to be a ‘good enough person.’”

Here are two examples of emotional self-disclosure that are fundamental tools of my therapeutic work. I repeatedly express my genuine indignation that the survivor was taught to hate himself. Over time, this often awakens the survivor’s instinct to also feel incensed about this travesty. This then empowers him to begin standing up to the inner critic. This in turn aids him to emotionally invest in the multidimensional work of building healthy self-advocacy.

Furthermore, I also repeatedly respond with empathy and compassion to the survivor’s suffering. With time, this typically helps to awaken the recoveree’s capacity for self-empathy. She then gradually learns to comfort herself when she is in a flashback or otherwise painful life situation. Less and less often does she surrender to an inner torture of self-hate, self-disappointment, and self-abandonment.

My most consistent feedback from past clients is that responses like these—especially ones that normalize fear and depression—helped them immeasurably to deconstruct their perfectionism, and open up to self-compassion and self-acceptance.

Guidelines for Self-Disclosure
What guidelines, then, can we use to insure that our self-disclosure is judicious and therapeutic? I believe the following five principles help me to disclose therapeutically and steer clear of unconsciously sharing for my own narcissistic gratification.

First, I use self-disclosure sparingly.

Second, my disclosures are offered primarily to promote a matrix of safety and trust in the relationship. In this vein my vulnerability is offered to normalize and de-shame the inexorable, existential imperfection of the human condition, e.g., we all make mistakes, suffer painful feelings, experience confusion, etc.

Third, I do not share vulnerabilities that are currently raw and unintegrated.

Fourth, I never disclose in order to work through my own “stuff,” or to meet my own narcissistic need for verbal ventilation or personal edification.

Fifth, while I may share my appreciation or be touched by a client’s attempt or offer to focus on or soothe my vulnerabilities, I never accept the offer. I gently thank them for their concern, remind them that our work is client-centered, and let them know that I have an outside support network.

Emotional Self-disclosure and Sharing Parallel Trauma History
Since many of my clients have sought my services after reading my somewhat autobiographical book on recovery from the dysfunctional family, self-disclosure about my past trauma is sometimes a moot point. This condition has at the same time helped me realize how powerful this kind of disclosure can be in healing shame and cultivating hope.

Over and over, clients have told me that my vulnerable and pragmatic stories of working through my parents’ traumatizing abuse and neglect gives them the courage to engage the long difficult journey of recovering. But whether or not someone has read my book, I will—with appropriate clients—judiciously and sparingly share my own experiences of dealing with an issue they have currently brought up. I do this both to psychoeducate them and to model ways that they might address their own analogous concerns.

One common example sounds like this: “I hate flashbacks too. Even though I get them much less than when I started this work, falling back into that old fear and shame is so awful.”

I also sometimes say: “I really reverberate with your feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness around the inner critic. In the early stages of this work, I often felt overwhelmingly frustrated. It seemed that trying to shrink it actually made it worse. But now after ten thousand repetitions of thought-stopping and thought-correction, my critic is a mere shadow of its former self.”

A final example concerns a purely emotional self-disclosure. When a client is verbally ventilating about a sorrowful experience, I sometimes allow my tears to brim up in my eyes in authentic commiseration with their pain. The first time my most helpful therapist did this with me, I experienced a quantum leap in my trust of her.

3. Dialogicality

Dialogicality occurs when two conversing people move fluidly and interchangeably between speaking (an aspect of healthy narcissism) and listening (an aspect of healthy codependence). Such reciprocal interactions prevent either person from polarizing to a dysfunctional narcissistic or codependent type of relating.

Dialogicality energizes both participants in a conversation. Dialogical relating stands in contrast to the monological energy-theft that characterizes interactions whereby a narcissist pathologically exploits a codependent’s listening defense. Numerous people have reverberated with my observation that listening to a narcissist monologue feels as if it is draining them of energy.

I have become so mindful of this dynamic that, in a new social situation, a sudden sense of tiredness often warns me that I am talking with a narcissist. How different than the elevation I sense in myself and my fellow conversant in a truly reciprocal exchange. Again, I wonder if there are mirror neurons involved in this.

I was appalled the other day while perusing a home shopping catalog to see a set of coffee cups for sale that bore the monikers “Designated Talker” and “Designated Listener.” My wife and I pondered it for a few minutes, and hypothesized that it had to be a narcissist who designed those mugs. We imagined we could see the narcissists who order them presenting them to their favorite sounding boards as Christmas presents.

In therapy, dialogicality develops out of a teamwork approach—a mutual brainstorming about the client’s issues and concerns. Such an approach cultivates full exploration of ambivalences, conflicts and other life difficulties.

Dialogicality is enhanced when the therapist offers feedback from a take-it-or-leave-it stance. Dialogicality also implies respectful mutuality. It stands in stark contrast to the blank screen neutrality and abstinence of traditional psychoanalytic therapy, which all too often reenacts the verbal and emotional neglect of childhood. I believe abstinence commonly flashes the client back into feelings of abandonment, which triggers them to retreat into “safe” superficial disclosure, ever-growing muteness and/or early flight from therapy.

Meeting Healthy Narcissistic Needs
All this being said, extensive dialogicality is often inappropriate in the early stages of therapy. This is especially true, when the client’s normal narcissistic needs have never been gratified, and remain developmentally arrested. In such cases, clients need to be extensively heard. They need to discover through the agency of spontaneous self-expression the nature of their own feelings, needs, preferences and views.

For those survivors whose self-expression was especially decimated by their caretakers, self-focused verbal exploration typically needs to be the dominant activity for a great deal of time. Without this, the unformed healthy ego has no room to grow and break free from the critic. The client’s healthy sense of self remains imprisoned beneath the hegemony of the outsized superego.

This does not mean, however, that the client benefits when the therapist retreats into extremely polarized listening. Most benefit, as early as the first session, from hearing something real or “personal” from the therapist. This helps overcome the shame-inducing potential that arises in the “One-seen (client) / One-unseen (therapist)” dynamic. “When one person is being vulnerable and the other is not, shame has a huge universe in which to grow.” This also creates a potential for the client to get stuck flashing back to childhood when the vulnerable child was rejected over and over by the seemingly invulnerable parent. Consequently, many of my colleagues see group therapy as especially powerful for healing shame, because it rectifies this imbalance by creating a milieu where it is not just one person who is risking being vulnerable.

In this regard, it is interesting to note a large survey of California therapists that occurred about fifteen years ago. The survey was about their therapy preferences, and upwards of ninety percent emphasized that they did not want a blank screen therapist, but rather one who occasionally offered opinions and advice.

For twenty-five years, I have been routinely asking clients in the first session: “Based on your previous experiences in therapy, what would you like to happen in our work together; and what don’t you want to happen?” How frequently clients respond similarly to the therapists in the survey!

Moreover, the next most common response I receive is that I don’t want a therapist who does all the talking. More than a few have used the exact phrase: “I couldn’t get a word in edgewise!” “How I wish there was a way that our qualification tests could spot and disqualify the narcissists who get licensed and then turn their already codependent clients into sounding boards.” This is the shadowy flipside polarity of the blank screen therapist.

Psychoeducation as Part of Dialogicality
Experience has taught me that clients who are childhood trauma survivors typically benefit from psychoeducation about Complex PTSD. When clients understand the whole picture of CPTSD recovery, they become more motivated to participate in the self-help practices of recovering. This also increases their overall hopefulness and general engagement in the therapeutic process. I sometimes wonder whether the rise in the popularity of coaching has been a reaction to the various traditional forms of therapeutic neglect.

One of the worst forms of therapeutic neglect occurs when the therapist fails to notice or challenge a client’s incessant, self-hating diatribes. This, I believe, is akin to tacitly approving of and silently colluding with the inner critic.

Perhaps therapeutic withholding and abstinence derives from the absent father syndrome that afflicts so many westernized families. Perhaps traditional psychotherapy overemphasizes the mothering principles of listening and unconditional love, and neglects the fathering principles of encouragement and guidance that coaching specializes in.

Too much coaching is, of course, as counter-therapeutic and unbalanced as too much listening. It can interfere with the client’s process of self-exploration and self-discovery as described above. At its worst, it can lure the therapist into the narcissistic trap of falling in love with the sound of his own voice.

At its best, coaching is an indispensable therapeutic tool. Just as it takes fathering and mothering to raise a balanced child, mothering and fathering principles are needed to meet the developmental arrests of the attachment-deprived client.

The sophisticated therapist values both and intuitively oscillates between the two, depending on the developmental needs of the client in the moment. Sometimes we guide with psychoeducation, therapeutic self-disclosure and active positive noticing, and most times we receptively nurture the client’s evolving practice of her own spontaneously arising self-expression and verbal ventilation.

Once again, I believe that in early therapy and many subsequent stages of therapy, the latter process typically needs to predominate. In this vein, I would guess that over the course of most therapies that I conduct, I listen about ninety percent of the time.

Finally, I often notice that the last phase of therapy is often characterized by increasing dialogicality—a more balanced fluidity of talking and listening. This conversational reciprocity is a key characteristic of healthy intimacy. Moreover, when therapy is successful, progress in mutuality begins to serve the client in creating healthier relationships in the outside world.

Dialogicality and the 4F’s (Fight/Flight/Freeze/Fawn)
Because of childhood abandonment and repetition compulsion in later relationships, many 4F types are “dying” to be heard. Different types however vary considerably in their dialogical needs over the course of therapy.

The Fawn/ Codependent type, who survived in childhood by becoming a parent’s sounding board or shoulder to cry on, may use her listening defense to encourage the therapist to do too much of the talking. With her eliciting defense, she may even invoke the careless therapist into narcissistically monologuing himself.

The Freeze/Dissociative type, who learned early to seek safety in the camouflage of silence, often needs a great deal of encouragement to discover and talk about his inner experience. Psychoeducation can help him understand how his healthy narcissistic need to express himself was never nurtured in his family.

Furthermore, freeze types can easily get lost in superficial and barely relevant free associations as they struggle to learn to talk about themselves. This of course needs to be welcomed for some time, but eventually we must help him see that his flights of fantasy or endless dream elaborations are primarily manifestations of his dissociative defense.

“Freeze types need to learn that emotionally disconnected talking is an old childhood habit that was developed to keep them buoyant above their undealt with emotional pain.” Because of this, we must repeatedly guide them toward their feelings so that they can learn to express their most important concerns.

The Fight/Narcissistic type, who often enters therapy habituated to holding court, typically dodges real intimacy with her talking defense. Therapy can actually be counterproductive for these types as months or years of uninterrupted monologuing in sessions exacerbate their sense of entitlement. By providing a steady diet of uninterrupted listening, the therapist strengthens their intimacy-destroying defense of over-controlling conversations. Sooner or later, we must insert ourselves into the relationship to work on helping them learn to listen.

As I write this, I remember Harry from my internship whose tiny capacity to listen to his wife evaporated as my fifty minutes of uninterrupted listening became his new norm and expectation in relationship. I felt guilty when I learned this from listening to a recorded message from his wife about how therapy was making him even more insufferable. I was relieved, however, a few years later when a different client told me that Harry’s wife eventually felt happy about this “therapeutic” change. Her husband’s increased self-centeredness was the last straw for her and she finally, with great relief, shed herself of him.

“A therapist, who is a fawn type herself, may hide in a listening and eliciting defense to avoid the scary work of gradually insinuating herself into the relationship and nudging it towards dialogicality.” If we do not nudge the client to interact, there will be no recovering.

The Flight/Obsessive-compulsive type sometimes presents as being more dialogical than other types. Like the freeze type, however, he can obsess about “safe” abstract concerns that are quite removed from his deeper issues. It is therefore up to the therapist to steer him into his deeper, emotionally based concerns to help him learn a more intimacy-enhancing dialogicality. Otherwise, the flight type can remain stuck and floundering in obsessive perseverations about superficial worries that are little more than left-brain dissociations from his repressed pain.

It is important to note here that all 4F types use left- or right-brain dissociative processes to avoid feeling and grieving their childhood losses. As dialogicality is established, it can then be oriented toward helping them to uncover and verbally and emotionally vent their ungrieved hurts.

4. Collaborative Relationship Repair

Collaborative relationship repair is the process by which relationships recover and grow closer from successful conflict resolution. Misattunements and periods of disaffection are existential to every relationship of substance. We all need to learn a process for restoring intimacy when a disagreement temporarily disrupts our feeling of being safely connected.

“I believe most people, if they think about it, realize that their best friends are those with whom they have had a conflict and found a way to work through it.” Once a friendship survives a hurtful misattunement, it generally means that it has moved through the fair-weather-friends stage of relationship.

Synchronistic with writing this section, my son uncharacteristically got into a conflict at school. During third grade recess two of his good friends, also uncharacteristically, started teasing him, and when they would not stop he pushed each of them. This earned them all a trip to the principal’s office. The principal is a strict but exceptionally wise and kind woman. My son’s offense, using physical force to resolve a conflict, was judged as the most serious violation of school policy, but his friends were also held responsible for their part and given an enlightening lecture on teasing.

My son, not used to being in trouble, had a good cry about it all. He then agreed that a one-day loss of recess plus writing letters of apology to his friends were fair consequences. Two days later, I asked him how things were going now between him and the two friends. With a look of surprise and delight, he told me: “It’s really funny, daddy. Now it feels like we’re even better friends than we were before.”

Rapport repair is probably the most transformative, intimacy-building process that a therapist can model. I guide this process from a perspective that recognizes that there is usually a mutual contribution to any misattunement or conflict. Therefore, a mutually respectful dialogical process is typically needed to repair rapport.

Exceptions to this include scapegoating and upsets that are instigated by a bullying narcissist. In those situations, they are solely at fault. I have often been saddened by codependent clients who apologize to their bullying parents as if they made their parents abuse them.

In more normal misattunements, I often initiate the repair process with two contiguous interventions. Firstly, I identify the misattunement (e.g., “I think I might have misunderstood you.”) And secondly, I then model vulnerability by describing what I think might be my contribution to the disconnection.

Abbreviated examples of this are: “I think I may have just been somewhat preachy…or tired…or inattentive…or impatient…or triggered by my own transference.” Owning your part in a conflict validates the normality of relational disappointment and the art of amiable resolution.

Taking responsibility for your role in a misunderstanding also helps deconstruct the client’s outer critic belief that relationships have to be perfect. At the same time, it models a constructive approach to resolving conflicts, and over time leads most clients to become interested in exploring their contribution to the conflict. This becomes an invaluable skill which they can then take into their outside relationships.

As one might expect, fight types are the least likely of the 4F’s to collaborate and own their side of the street in a misattunement. Extreme fight types such as those diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder have long been considered untreatable in traditional psychoanalysis for this reason.

With less extreme fight types, I sometimes succeed in psychoeducating them on how they learned their controlling defenses. From there I try to help them see how much they pay for being so controlling. At the top of the list of debits is intimacy-starvation. Consciously or not, they hunger for human warmth and they do not get it from those whom they control. Victims of fight types are too afraid of them to relax enough to generate authentically warm feelings.

Finally, I believe one of the most common reasons that clients terminate prematurely is the gradual accumulation of dissatisfactions that they do not feel safe enough to bring up or talk about. How sad it is that all kinds of promising relationships wither and die from an individual or couple’s inability to safely work through differences and conflict.

Earned Secure Attachment
In therapy, clients get the most out of their session by learning to stay in interpersonal contact while they communicate from their emotional pain. This gradually shows them that they are acceptable and worthwhile no matter what they are feeling and experiencing.

As survivors realize more deeply that their flashbacks are normal responses to abnormal childhood conditions, their shame begins to melt. This then eases their fear of being seen as defective. In turn, their habits of isolating or pushing others away during flashbacks diminish.

Earned secure attachment is a newly recognized category of healthy attachment. Many attachment therapists believe that effective treatment can help a survivor “earn” at least one truly intimate relationship. Good therapy can be an intimacy-modeling relationship. It fosters our learning and practicing of intimacy-making behavior. Your connection with your therapist can become a transitional earned secure attachment. This in turn can lead to the attainment of an earned secure attachment outside of therapy. I have repeatedly seen this result with my most successful clients, and I am grateful to report that my last experience with my own therapy lead me to this reward.

Diana Fosha on Accelerated Experiential-Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP)

“What You Think is Impossible, You're Actually Already Doing”

Polly Ely: Diana, welcome. As a devotee and student of Accelerated Experiential-Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP), I’m so happy to have this opportunity to interview you. Because AEDP is still pretty new to the world of psychotherapy, could you begin by explaining a bit about it?
Diana Fosha: Well, to begin with, unlike most models of psychotherapy that proceed from psychopathology—that start from what’s wrong and very reasonably want to go about fixing and healing it—one of the core characteristics of AEDP is that it assumes healing is already there to access from the first contact with the patient, including the most traumatized person that we encounter. It proceeds from the assumption of healing as a process and healing as a phenomenon—something to be entrained and engaged.

And we’re an experiential treatment, so whether we’re working with healing or attachment or emotion or what have you, we’re not so much interested in the narrative or people’s stories about it as much we’re interested in helping people drop down as much as we can into their experience and exploring the experience.
PE: In terms of “dropping down,” are there particular components or interventions that feel most relevant to AEDP that allow for that to occur?
DF: One of the things that’s characteristic of AEDP is to make the most of what’s there before trying to work with what’s not there or what’s maladaptive. So even when dropping down, if we see little glimmers of greater contact with the body, we would try to focus in on that little glimmer and enlarge it. I think more than anything else the stance is, “You’re already doing it so let’s just do more of it.”
PE: So you’re trying to amplify it, stretch it out, do more.
DF: Make you aware that what you think is impossible you’re actually already doing.

“I Don’t Have Any Feelings”

PE: So when you talk about greater contact with the body, how might you proceed with bringing something to life by making contact with the body in some way that traditional psychotherapists or eclectic psychotherapists might not feel as comfortable doing?
DF: Well, I’ll just say what we would do in AEDP and let other people judge whether it’s what they do or don’t do. For instance, the last person that I worked with was a man with a huge trauma history and a lot of disassociation. He walks in and he is telling me about some severe illness in a parent, and I ask him how he feels about it, and he says, “I don’t have any feelings.” So my question to him is, “What are you aware of?” And he becomes aware of a kind of subtle sensation in his chest—and that becomes our entry point. So we stay with that and I ask, “What does it feel like?”

“Well, it’s tense and it’s sort of a little dense.”

“Is it pleasant? Is it unpleasant?”

Over the course of a period of time, we really stay with what’s in his chest, which turns out to have all sorts of qualities of heaviness and pain—it’s a painful sensation. So before you know it, here I am with this incredibly intellectualized, supposedly in-his-head patient, talking completely in the language of sensation.
We’re no longer talking content. We’re no longer talking narrative. We’re speaking this kind of right-brain language.
We’re no longer talking content. We’re no longer talking narrative. We’re speaking this kind of right-brain language. He’s touching his chest with his hand as he’s palpating the spot where he’s experiencing this, and he’s starting to notice all these shifts and fluctuations, which are very much occurring in the moment. So within a few minutes, we had sort of “dropped down.”
PE: Dropped down and undone some belief about him not having any feelings?
DF: Right. Or that he’s all in his head or that he has an impossible time accessing his feelings.
PE: I see. So you’re developing capabilities and his belief in those capabilities, too.
DF: Over time, yes, absolutely
PE: So when I think about that—what’s happening in the body—how do we tie that to either the intellect or the story that they’re coming in with about whatever their perceived problem is? How might that be an inroad to the problem?
DF: Oh good question, because, of course, he’s not coming in because he has this subtle sensation in his chest; he’s coming in for a variety of issues and we’re just using it as an example. But really as we’re able to get more body-based and right-brained as a way of speaking about these kinds of phenomena, he and I are also having an interaction and we’re noticing what goes smoothly and flows and what’s difficult; what brings him closer and what makes him more distant?

And as we’re evoking what the pain is about or the sensation and what happens when I empathize, associations start to come up. “Did you ever have this kind of feeling? What comes to your mind about what this feeling may be telling you?” That becomes a way in, a much deeper way than telling the story or narrative. And eventually, the goal is to bring it all together—to bring it to a place where we can integrate experience with narrative, with understanding, with some sense of how his experience is linked to whatever issues he was having in his past.
PE: Sounds almost like you’re bypassing the thinking mind by calling on associations from that place in the chest that you’re talking about.
DF: I think that’s very much the case; or we’re trying to do that in the earlier part of the process, where we want to get experiential, construct something from the bottom up. In other words, not with preset preconceptions, beliefs, narrative coherence, but to let the story emerge from the kinds of experiences that are getting generated in the therapy. And then once we’ve worked with that, then we’re putting together basically a new narrative.

The Origins of AEDP

PE: What are the origins of AEDP? Did it spring forth from another model or did it come from your own curiosities about psychotherapy and what works?
DF: That’s an excellent question. I think the easiest way to answer that question is to tell you a little bit about my personal trajectory. My own training and development as a clinician was very psychoanalytic, psychodynamic and also developmental.
At the time I felt uncomfortable with the length of traditional psychoanalysis and its relatively cavalier attitude towards effectiveness and results.
At the time I felt uncomfortable with the length of traditional psychoanalysis and its relatively cavalier attitude towards effectiveness and results. So when I came across short-term dynamic psychotherapy in the work of David Malan and others, I was very excited because it seemed to be a way of working that preserved some of the depth. The analytic way of working, but at the same time, it was short-term, it was intensive. And the effectiveness of the treatment was one of the measures.

So I trained in a particular form of short-term dynamic psychotherapy developed by a clinician named Habib Davanloo, who developed a very intensive and very confrontational model of short-term dynamic psychotherapy. That was my early training and the first exposure I had to viscerally-based, deep feelings and emotions being systematically accessed in a relatively short period of time.

However, that way of working was confrontational; there’s a fair amount of stuff around aggression, which was not ideally suited to my personality or my way of understanding what’s needed in treatment. So from that point forth it became my personal goal to access the phenomena that I witnessed and learned in short-term dynamic psychotherapy and have things that are as visceral and as powerful and as transformative, but proceed from a place of being with the patient, rather than from a place of confrontation.

My other goal was to have a coherent theory for these amazing transformative phenomena. And I thought psychoanalysis, as marvelous as it is, didn’t have a good explanation of why the hell these phenomena were transformative in the moment.

You know, you start a session, you access this experiential phenomena, and 15 minutes later or half an hour later you’re in a, very different, transformed place. So it became important for me to try to have a theory that really reflected the phenomena of experiential psychotherapy. And over time AEDP, with both its theory and its practice, started to develop.

Resistance vs. Transformance

PE: You talk a lot of about transformation and for me, as a student, transformation is a word that was fairly new to me in the context of psychotherapy until I came upon AEDP. It just wasn’t a term that I ran across in my own training. I’m thinking about the word “transformance,” which is a term that you coined. It’s an important term and concept in the language of AEDP. Would you be willing to share a bit about its meaning?
DF: Well, it’s this idea of healing from the get-go—of healing not just being an outcome but a process that exists within each person that emerges in conditions of safety. That idea is not new to AEDP; it exists in spiritual traditions; it exists in humanistic therapies; it exists in some other existential therapies.
Whereas resistance is the conservative force in the psyche that causes us to resist changes or challenges, transformance is the force in the psyche that’s moving towards growth and expansion and transformation.
But still, our language tends to be very psychopathology-based, so that it seemed to me that a term was needed in our therapeutic lexicon to capture this notion of healing from within that we’re trying to tap. I coined the word “transformance” to capture that force and to have it be in counterpoint with resistance. So, whereas resistance is the conservative force in the psyche that causes us to resist changes or challenges, transformance is the force in the psyche that’s moving towards growth and expansion and transformation.
PE: I know for myself that one of the key elements of being an AEDP therapist is videotaping our work. What feels most important to you about that? It has some obvious teaching potential but I wonder if there’s more to it that you believe contributes to the process?
DF: I think it’s very much this emphasis on experience and phenomena and being able to witness firsthand the actual, live interaction. When a student comes to me for supervision, I’m not hearing his or her rendition of what happened. We’re having an experience together, witnessing what happened on video. It’s a huge help for the therapist because there’s no way that one can, in the moment, have access to the multiplicity of things that are happening in any given moment. So there’s this component of being able, after the fact, to look and look again and again and again, which is a beautiful way of learning about the richness that’s there.

Meta Processing

PE: Going back and looking at my work has been a huge place of growth for me as a therapist, and layers of new understanding emerge each time I watch a session. As I become more sophisticated in my understanding of what I’m doing, I’m able to notice more about the experience in the moment with my patients.

One area that is very key to AEDP that has been a struggle for me and where I’ve stretched a lot is around the idea of doing meta processing with the patient. Could you talk some about how you define meta processing and its value and why we, as therapists, may want to consider doing meta processing with our patients?
DF: Meta processing is huge and I think it’s one of the more important contributions that AEDP has made to the field of psychotherapy. I can explain it best by using a scenario. Let’s take somebody who comes in with depression and is feeling sort of sluggish or hopeless or whatever aspect of depression they have. And as a result of doing a piece of work—maybe it involves mourning—30 minutes later the depression lifts. They have a somewhat new perspective. They start to have a little bit of confidence in their own capacity to be effective in the world, right?
PE: Okay.
DF: So the depression lifts and the person starts to feel some efficacy. Well, at that point for us, what we want to do is process
PE: In that session.
DF: Right there in that session. What happened that allowed them to come in feeling lousy and now, half an hour later, they’re feeling more energized or more effective? So we then go through the experience.

The reason it’s called meta processing is that we’re processing the experience of what’s therapeutic about therapy. So—meta therapy. We might start to explore with the patient, “So you’re saying that you’re feeling better. And you have a sense that maybe you can be more effective. What’s that like? What does that feel like?” In the same way that we would explore what the sadness felt like or what grief feels like or what heaviness feels like. Now we’re beginning to explore what does energy feel like? What does vitality feel like? What’s it like that you and I, through talking together and doing this piece of work together, ended up here when we started back there? So that all these experiences that are quite implicit start to become more explicit, and then we’re doing another round of experiential exploration.
PE: So the next round is kind of concretizing what was learned in those first 40 minutes?
DF: Yeah. That’s a beautiful way of saying it. Concretizing, solidifying, increasing awareness, and consolidating it.
PE: And is that something that you expect your therapists to do every session?
DF: Well, we think about it in the following way: we have “Big-M” meta processing and “Small-M” meta processing. And “Big-M” meta processing is when you’ve had an experience like the one we’ve talked about—a very definite change for the better as a result of doing a piece of psychotherapeutic work. Whereas “Small M” meta processing is when there is a tiny little shift. The patient says something, you make a remark, and maybe tears come to their eyes because they feel understood. It’s not that you’ve worked for half an hour and you’ve done a whole process; it’s been one little exchange. “When I said that, it seemed to have moved you. What’s that like for you? What happened?” That’s a little meta processing. But it doesn’t have to be positive. It can be negative. Let’s say you say something and you see the patient sort of turn away or advert their eyes. So there’s been a very specific moment, a little change. We want to zero in on that and not have preconceived ideas about what it means. It doesn’t matter. The point is for the therapist to really get inside the patient’s experience, in a precise way.

So that’s how we use the meta processing and it’s probably accurate to say that rarely does an AEDP session go by without several instances of either “Small-M” or “Big-M” meta processing.

Existing in the Heart and Mind of Another

PE: I’ve been asked a few times if there’s any research that supports the accelerated outcomes of AEDP. How do you answer that question?
DF: That’s a very good question. There are about five research projects that are currently in the works on various aspects of AEDP—on outcome, meta processing, the nature of the changes that people experience as a result of AEDP training—but there are many, many components of AEDP that have been researched in the context of other experiential models. So while we have no research on meta processing or on dyadic affect regulation—because nobody else has done it—there’s infancy research that shows that mother/baby dyads where there’s effective affect regulation are the dyads that produce the most resilient babies. We have developmental research that shows that working with the feeling of existing in the heart and mind of another, which is a phrase we use that relates to attachment, is a huge aspects of resilience in the face of trauma.

There’s a lot of experiential research in the field of trauma that shows that processing previously unbearable emotions through to completion in a safe environment is one of the factors that leads patients to both stay in treatment and have better outcomes on some of the interpersonal measures. So many pieces of AEDP have quite strong empirical validation. The last piece comes from what AEDP shares with short-term dynamic psychotherapy, which shows that when you get past defenses and when patients and therapists are in close contact with core emotions, that contributes significantly to good outcomes. There’s a whole literature on that.
PE: You mentioned a few minutes ago how therapists report being impacted by working with this model. Can you say more about how their lives changed or their own personal processes changed?
DF: That’s a beautiful question. I would actually love to turn it back around and hear what your experience has been.
PE: Well, it has sort of paralleled my own deepening and ability to understand myself and where my defenses lie and where breakthroughs occur for me. It’s such a big question because, as I deepen in my understanding of AEDP, I see a natural transformation in who I am as a human being with other people; how I do in relationships with other people. How much vitality and life I feel within myself on a moment-to-moment basis and just how well I recover and how resilient I become. Without sounding like I’m proselytizing, I feel pretty transformed by it, to be perfectly honest.
DF: I appreciate your saying that. It’s a beautiful answer and people often speak of the parallel process in terms of their own transformation and deepening. I think that one of the other aspects is the gratitude that people experience at the generosity of the community. In the same way that we do therapy with affirmation and empathy and focusing on what people already do, the AEDP community is a very affirming, supportive community.

Especially for people who have had a lot of experience having to steel themselves against criticisms. You can certainly learn with a lot of harsh feedback, but I think the sense of learning through deepening, while being held and being in resonance with others; learning to pay attention to what gives you energy and vitality and what saps your energy and vitality and bringing that into the work—these are things that people are profoundly grateful for.

People have often said that they have a sense of coming home, which is very moving to me.
Way before they became professionals trained in fancy models and systems of interventions, there was just some intuitive sense of wanting to be with people and help them—some sense of hope and generativity that very often gets trained out of people in graduate school.
Way before they became professionals trained in fancy models and systems of interventions, there was just some intuitive sense of wanting to be with people and help them—some sense of hope and generativity that very often gets trained out of people in graduate school. People learn techniques and learn models and become very competent, but lose contact with some of that kind of naïve but very core sense of what it takes to heal in the presence of another. There’s something about AEDP that really draws on those innate processes by which we connect and heal and need to be with one another that lets people feel more alive.
PE: The word that comes to mind for me is “sustainable.”
DF: Yes, something about it allows you to sustain rather than burn out, and feel actually fed by it.

Men Get a Bum Rap

PE: I know recently you did some work around the differences between working with men and women and I’m wondering if there’s anything about that you’re excited about and would like to share.
DF: You know, I’ve really felt that men, to be perfectly honest, were getting sort of a bum rap in the world of emotion focused therapy. I have a colleague who sees couples and the typical set up was that the woman dragged their male partners in and they came because they didn’t want to lose the relationship. But they would always be revealed in the therapy as cut off from their emotions and not therefore able to use the couple’s therapy, so my colleague would send the men to me for individual therapy. These men would come in with their tails between their legs and feeling sort of sheepish or defensive or alienated. And when, in AEDP fashion, I’d look for the glimmer of what’s resilient or what’s healing or what’s transformance based and reflect back to them sensitivity or care or empathy, it was such a mind-blowing experience because they were so used to being told everything that they do wrong.

It was in that kind of informal way that I got interested in what happens to men in psychotherapy, especially in emotion- or relationally-based psychotherapy, because AEDP is so attachment- and emotion-based. So I actually went to do some neuroscience research and there’s a tremendous amount of the neuroscience research on sex difference and affect regulation.

And surprise, surprise, all the stuff that standup comics and guys in bars and girlfriends speaking to each other talk about—you know, everybody’s so-called stereotypes of the other gender—have some bearing in neuroscience.

PE: Which ones stand out to you?
DF: Well there are some real differences in how male and female brains process emotion. One of the main characteristics of male brains is that they’re actually more emotional—counter to stereotype—and have more right-brain activation than women, but that more visceral, raw sense of emotion is not as linked with language, so that modulation of emotion is much more problematic in men. Whereas connectivity in the brains of women is much more evenly distributed in the left and right brain, so that everything is much more connected for women. Under extreme emotional activation, language sort of goes off screen for men.
So it’s not that men don’t have feelings; they have tremendous, tremendous emotion, but the capacity to articulate is different.
So it’s not that men don’t have feelings; they have tremendous, tremendous emotion, but the capacity to articulate is different. And then there’s all this backlash in terms of shame and feeling inadequate for not being able to have an emotional conversation.
PE: That’s such an empathic way to be with men who are experiencing some trouble with expressing themselves.
DF: Yes, and I’ll tell you one other fascinating one, which has to do with face recognition. There’s an area in the brain that’s devoted to face recognition and women are superior to men in face recognition in all conditions, across the board. Under stress, women’s face recognition gets better and men’s face recognition gets worse. In stress-based literature they say that under stress, men’s sympathetic nervous system—the fight-flight response—is activated. For women, what’s activated under the same kind of threatening conditions is the limbic system and what’s been called the “tend and befriend.”

We women reach out, seek, and offer care. Reaching out to others means better face recognition, right? Presumably, evolutionarily speaking, the more you can recognize a face, you can recognize friend, foe, nurturer, etc. Whereas under stress, men sort of go inside, get strong, get into fight or flight, and are more isolated. It’s like the focus is on action and the face recognition drops off. So those are two things that seemed to me to bear very directly on our work, whether we’re working with individuals or couples.

PE: What are your suggestions for people who are interested in learning about or getting involved in AEDP?
DF: The first thing would be to visit the website, www.AEDPinstitute.com which is a focal point for the community and a way to just find out something about the model. We’ve got videos, presentations, downloadable articles, and trainings with different members of the faculty. You can also find out where trainings in various parts of the country are.
PE: Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss your work.
DF: Thank you.

Tara Brach on Mindfulness, Psychotherapy and Awakening

What is Mindfulness

Deb Kory: In this day and age a lot of people are throwing around the term mindfulness. Many therapists—particularly in the Bay Area—describe their approach as “mindfulness-based,” but I have a feeling that most people don’t actually know what that means. What exactly is mindfulness? What does it mean to be a mindfulness-based therapist?
Tara Brach: Mindfulness is a way of paying attention moment-to-moment to what’s happening within and around us without judgment.

Mindfulness is a way of paying attention moment-to-moment to what’s happening within and around us without judgment. So, said differently, when we attend to the moment-to-moment flow of experience, and recognize what’s happening…fully allowing it, not adding judgment or commentary, then we are cultivating a mindful awareness.

DK: So, it’s non-judgmental awareness of the present moment?
TB: That’s another way to say it, yes.
DK: How does that relate to being a mindfulness-based psychotherapist? What does that mean?
TB: It means that intrinsic to the psychotherapy is a valuing of cultivating that kind of attention, and an encouragement of the person you’re working with to cultivate it, and a use of it yourself. It can be sometimes formally woven into the therapy, but sometimes it’s just implicit.

Meditation and Psychotherapy

DK: Where does meditation come in? Is that a necessary part of mindfulness work?
TB: Meditation is the deliberate training of attention. So, when you do a mindfulness meditation, you are deliberately cultivating mindfulness by using strategies to enter the present moment and to let go of judgment and so on.
DK: So, it’s a way to help cultivate awareness of the present moment, and I would imagine that’s especially important for therapists. Does that mean that you actually do meditation in your sessions with people?
TB: Well, some people do, and some people don’t. I’m not in active clinical practice right now. I was, for several decades, seeing clients regularly and then turned to mostly writing and teaching and training therapists in how to weave mindfulness into their practice. So, I’m no longer seeing clients myself, but when I did see clients and when I work with people and do sessions that are related to meditation training—I would often, as part of a process of them getting in touch with what was going on inside them, invite them to pause and just simply use a period of time to quiet the mind, to just notice the changing flow of experience, or maybe to do a particular compassion practice. So, I would weave particular styles of meditation into a therapy session.
DK: Would you suggest that people do it in their day-to-day lives also?
TB: It very much depends on the client that you’re working with. For some people, talking about meditation, suggesting that they meditate, is a set-up for failure and shame. They’ll try to comply because they think, “Oh, Tara is this well known meditation teacher and this is what she’s into, so I should do it,” and so on; whereas it’s not a fit for them at that particular time.

Many therapists already, just by the nature of who they are, have a natural sense of coming into presence and a deep sensitivity to other people, but all of us get help by training.

So there were many people I would see where it would be much more of an implicit part of the process. I’d be encouraging attention to what was going on in the moment, encouraging them to just notice their experience without adding any story—all things that we would associate with meditation practice without saying, “Hey, we’re meditating.” What makes meditation meditation is that it’s an intentional process of paying attention on purpose to the present moment.

DK: And it doesn’t necessarily mean sitting in the lotus pose, right? It’s something that you can do in your daily life walking out in the world?
TB: Absolutely. Meditation is a training of attention that you can do in any posture, at any moment, doing anything that you’re doing on the planet. In fact, for us to have the fruits of meditation, we have to be able to take it out of a compartment or a particular context and have it just be, you know, here’s Deborah and Tara doing a Skype call. So, we’re not leaving meditation behind just because we’re in the midst of an activity.
DK: Thanks, that helps me relax a little bit!
TB: Yeah, it helps to name what we’re doing. I think psychotherapy and meditation are incredibly synergistic and they fill in for each other in some important domains. There are many things that come up when we’re meditating that we really actually don’t have the resilience or the focus to untangle, and a therapist can help us do that. The relationship itself, a trusting respectful relationship, creates a sense of safety that can enable us to unpack things that we might not be able to work on when we’re on our own, especially if there’s trauma.There are increasing numbers of people who are recognizing they have trauma in their bodies, and when they start to meditate and feel like they’re kind of coming close to that, they can get flooded, overwhelmed. In therapy it’s possible for people to establish safety and stability so that they can just begin to put their toe in the water and go back and forth between being with the therapist and touching into their resourcefulness and then dipping a little into the places in their body and their heart where they’re feeling this more traumatic wounding. That kind of a process, if we tried it on our own just in a meditation setting, could potentially re-traumatize us.

DK: So the therapist offers a safe container for the traumatic feelings.
TB: Yes, and the relationship that really enables a person to have the support in untangling. What meditation offers to therapy is a systematic way of training the attention. Where the therapist might help a person focus and stay focused on the present moment when encountering a painful issue, meditation training teaches us to do it on our own. It builds that muscle of being able to come back to this moment, even if it connects us with something we have habitually resisted.Meditation also trains us to, on our own, get the knack of offering ourselves compassion or forgiveness so that we can leave the therapy setting and continue in a kind of transformational way to be with the contents of our own psyche and wake up from limiting beliefs and the painful emotions.

DK: It seems at least as important for the therapist to have that ability to stay present, because there’s a transmission that happens. There is an energetic quality to what we do.
TB: Exactly right. Many therapists already, just by the nature of who they are, have a natural sense of coming into presence and a deep sensitivity to other people, but all of us get help by training. All of us.

The Alive Zone

DK: One of the things I was going to ask you was about how you differentiated your roles as psychotherapist and spiritual teacher, but you’ve said you actually are no longer in clinical practice. What led to that decision to leave that particular role and go more into teaching and writing?
TB: Well, I had done clinical practice for many years and, I think, the place where I felt most needed and most alive is in the process of teaching people how to wake up their hearts and minds, and with that I mean both the practices and the whole inquiry about what really serves freedom. That realm was much more alive for me. For many, many people—most of us I’d say—meditation and therapy are incredibly juicy. They weave together beautifully. So it wasn’t that I was thinking therapy wasn’t an alive zone—it was just that I had put my energies really into the teaching side of things, and I was writing and that took a lot of time.
DK: Aren’t there some areas of the profession that are a little bit deadening though? I’m just about to get licensed myself after an 8-year-long process, and I have been somewhat disheartened at times by the way the profession is organized—its restrictions, the whole 50-minute-hour, the billing and diagnosing, the legal and ethical structures that can at times seem very fear-based and a bit paranoid. I’m curious about what might have felt restricting to you.
TB: Well, the culture does not support the kind of processes of transformation that I’m most excited about, and they take time and immersion. I love retreat settings where people can really give themselves to a very deep attention. I like working with people when there is a longer period of time for people to be together and really have the inquiry and the experience, have the time to unfold. So, as you mentioned, with the slot of a 50-minute-hour, there’s a kind of rigidity that is necessary in some ways, but not so much to my liking.
DK: In my experience—and I live in Berkeley, CA, which is considered progressive and rather “woo woo”—spirituality and religion were not incorporated into our professional training. We aren’t taught to value it except in a kind of multicultural, “let’s be tolerant of other points of view” kind of way. There’s an emphasis on scientific methodology, assessment, empirically validated research, etc., that feels very split off from what you’re talking about. I wonder if that was your experience at all?
TB: Well, what’s alive about therapy is the therapeutic relationship and, like any other two humans connecting, nothing can really flatten that. If you know you want to show up and be with somebody and really know that you’re there to see the goodness in the other person, you’re there to help recognize the patterns that are getting in the way, you’re there to hold a container moving through difficult material—that all is beautiful, and that can happen regardless of the structure around it.That said, I find that I do that more effectively with people in sessions that are more focused on how to bring meditation to difficult experiences. My interest is not so much to do with coping strategies or too much emphasis on the storyline;

I’m more interested in our potential to realize the full truth of who we are beyond the story of a separate self. Most therapy is not geared in that direction. People that end up working with me, or working individually with me doing what I might call spiritual counseling, are kind of a self-selected group of people that are interested in a more transpersonal kind of work–not in any way to ignore the issues of the personal self, but to have the personal be a portal to the universal, and an expression of our awake heart and awareness.

DK: Where did you go to get your degree in clinical psychology?
TB: I did my undergraduate work at Clarke University, and I did my graduate degree at Fielding Institute, which is out on the West Coast in Santa Barbara.
DK: What was your plan at the time?
TB: Well, even then—I had lived in an ashram for 10 years—I was approaching psychotherapy in a very holistic way. I was doing yoga, teaching yoga, and weaving yoga and meditation into any work I did with people. So I’ve always been blending East and West together, right from the get-go.My plan was to keep doing this, to be able to have a degree so I could afford to have this as a profession. I have a fascination with the psyche. I mean, I’m totally interested in how we create limiting realities about ourselves, and our capacity to see beyond the veil to the vastness and mystery of who we are. So my plan was just to keep on weaving these worlds together in whatever way would be most alive.

The Trance of Bad Personhood

DK: I read somewhere that you wrote your dissertation on eating disorders?
TB: Yeah. I had struggled with an eating disorder for a good number of years—probably 5 years—and meditation was really helpful; basically, it taught me how to pause. There’s a wonderful saying that between the stimulus and the response there is a space, and in that space is our power and our freedom. That’s Viktor Frankl. So the practice of meditation taught me how to pause and open mindfully to the space so that there’d be a craving or fear, but there would be some space between that and action.It also taught me a lot about self-compassion. I found that addiction is fueled by blaming ourselves. In Buddhism, they call it “the second arrow.”

The first arrow is the craving or the fear or whatever; the second arrow is, “I’m a bad person for having these feelings or doing these behaviors.” The “bad person” arrow actually locks us into the very behaviors that are causing suffering. So, in both Radical Acceptance and True Refuge, I emphasize a lot about how to wake up from that trance of bad personhood.

DK: One of the things I like about your work is that it’s very integrative. I get a sense that you’re really open to cognitive science, to philosophy, to various wisdom traditions, to 12-step programs—essentially to whatever seems to work for people. As someone who has benefited a great deal from the twelve-step model, I’m also well aware that it doesn’t work for everyone and that we have to have a big tool box available to help clients—particularly those struggling with powerful addictions. What’s your approach when working with addicts?
TB: Well, my inquiry is always, what have you been exploring and what helps? Humans are really resourceful, so I always try to find out what works for you. Of course, there are so many different approaches. I did my dissertation on binge-eating and meditation practice, but it became very clear to me that without having a relational component, without having a group and people to support you, nothing would hold. Whether it’s a 12-step group or in the Buddhist communities we have the kalyana mitta groups, or spiritual friends groups—the great gift is that we really get that suffering is universal, that we’re not alone in it, that it’s not so personal, that there’s hope, there are ways that we wake up out of it, and that we’re there for each other. We’re kind of in it together.
If there’s any medicine in the whole world, it’s that sense of belonging, of connection with others.I think that on the spiritual path, meditation—learning to be here in the present moment—is critical; but equally essential and interdependent is the domain of sangha, or community. We need to discover who we are in relationship with others. Whether it is addiction or any other form of suffering, a mindful relationship with our inner life and with each other is what de-conditions the contracted beliefs, feelings and resultant behaviors.

What gives hope is described in recent science as neuroplasticity. The patterns in our mind that sustain suffering can be transformed. And how we pay attention is the key agent. A kind and lucid attention untangles the tangles!

Will This Serve?

DK: In your work, you really make a concerted effort to share your own fallibility, and I think that for psychotherapists that’s a really tough one. I feel quite committed to that in my own practice, and yet I notice that I’m often pulled to frame things as, “long, long ago, when I was sick,” you know? But I’m not that old, so it couldn’t have been that long ago.
TB: Right…as long as there’s a 10-year gap between now and when I was really confused…
DK: Exactly. So it’s something I really try to work on, because I know in my own experiences as a client in therapy and in supervision, that I feel safest and most connected when people are willing to share with me not just that they were screwed up in the past, but that they’re still screwed up, because we all are.
TB: Yeah, the vulnerability, the fear, the shame—it all continues to rise throughout life. I’ve made that kind of vulnerable sharing a deliberate practice for a few reasons. One is, it’s the truth. I mean, there’s no way there’s not going to be projection when you’re a teacher or a therapist, but I really feel like mindfully sharing about our personal foibles serves. I regularly get caught up in self-centered thoughts, impatience, irritability, anxiety, the whole neurotic range. And…the truth is that I’ve been blessed to have increasing freedom, you know? That pain and difficulty and stuff keeps arising, but so does a mindful, compassionate way of relating to what’s happening. The result is there’s less and less of a sense that it’s happening to a self or caused by a self. I know how valuable it is for people to see that as a therapist or as a teacher that you have a certain amount of happiness or freedom in your life and that you’re still working on things. It gives hope.
DK: Yes, it’s a fine balance.
TB: It’s a fine balance. I think the inquiry is always, will this serve? We’re not doing it to unload; we’re not doing it to be a certain kind of person. It’s just, will this serve? But, I have found for myself that leaning in that direction is usually beneficial.

What We Talk About When We Talk About Love

DK: You also talk a lot about love. I felt very clearly that I came into the profession in order to practice love—to practice it and to practice it, learn about it. But in my training, I literally never heard the word uttered. I made a point to bring it into discussions at school and at training sites, but in my experience it was a lot easier for people to talk about hate—“hate in the counter-transference” and love as just “positive countertransference.” Obviously there have been terrible abuses of power by therapists in the name of love, but it seems like the response has been an over-correction, and has left us without a proper vocabulary for what we are actually doing.
TB: Well, as you were speaking, I was thinking that it’s beginning to change. That’s the good news, Deborah. I mean, there is so much research now on self-compassion and compassion for others. There are universities like Stanford, which has a whole institute—The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education (CCARE)—dedicated to compassion studies. Compassion is love when we experience another person’s vulnerability or suffering. Love, in terms of loving-kindness, is described as love when we see the goodness in what we cherish. Gratitude and appreciation and love and beauty are all words and places, domains of attention that are actually becoming more common in the psychotherapeutic community.And I feel like it’s really important that we consciously take this one on. For instance, I have made a point of talking about prayer and talking about calling on the beloved and calling on loving presence when I feel very, very separate…really reaching out to that which feels like a source of loving presence and then discovering it wasn’t outside of me, but I first have to go through the motions. So it starts with a dualistic sense, and then it ends up revealing unity. I’ve made a point of talking about that when I’m doing keynotes at professional conferences, because I really want there to be an increasing acceptance and comfort with the language of prayer.

How could it be that we all have these longings? I mean, every one of us longs to belong. Every one of us longs for refuge. We long for feeling embraced. We long to feel bathed in love. We long to touch peace.

That’s prayer. That longing, when conscious and expressed, is the fullness of prayer, and for us to acknowledge the poignancy of it and invite people to recognize it and have it arise from a depth of sincerity, actually is a very powerful part of healing. Prayer is a powerful part of healing. It helps us step out of a small and separate ego kind of sensibility, and recognize a larger belonging.

So I feel like we’re at a very juicy kind of era in psychotherapy where more and more of the profession is opening itself to intentional training and training in self-compassion. It has definitely opened its doors to that. It’s opened the doors to mindfulness in a big way, and when you open those doors, people become more embodied and there’s more creativity, more possibility.

The Squeeze

DK: The title of your new book is True Refuge, and it speaks to, I think, both the longing and the possibility for refuge inside of ourselves that we create in relation to others, as part of the human community. What’s the relationship between this new book and your first book, Radical Acceptance?
TB: Well, I wrote Radical Acceptance because I was aware in my own life and with most everybody I connected with that probably the deepest, most-pervasive suffering is that feeling that something is wrong with me.I called it the “trance of unworthiness,” because most people I know get it that they judge themselves too much and they’re down on themselves, but are not aware of how many moments of their life that assumption of falling short is in some way constricting their behaviors and stopping them from being spontaneous. You know, it could be that here we are doing this interview, but there’s some nagging sense of, “Oh, I should be doing this better,” and how that in some way blocks the heart from being as open and tender. It’s just, we’re not aware of how many parts of our life are squeezed by a sense of deficiency.

I’ve found that until we are aware of that squeeze, we’re caught in the trance. So I wrote the book because I wanted to say, “hey guys, we’re all going around feeling bad about ourselves,” and explore how practices of freedom—cultivating a mindful awareness, cultivating compassion, cultivating a forgiving heart, learning to turn towards awareness itself to begin to recognize its formless presence that’s always here—help to dissolve the trance and reveal who we are. This vastness and this mystery is looking through our eyes right now, even though we’re just looking at a computer screen—there’s this sentience and it’s so cool. So the purpose of Radical Acceptance was to very much draw attention to that trance.

DK: And what was the purpose of writing True Refuge?
TB: In True Refuge, I enlarged the scope because in addition to unworthiness, our basic trance of separateness gives us a very profound sense of uncertainty and loss. I think it becomes more vivid as we age that, “okay, these bodies go, everyone we love goes, these minds go.” Right now, for example, I’m watching my mother lose her memory as dementia is setting in. Just watching that happen is painful and sad.But what directly motivated me to write True Refuge was a period of about 8 years of a steady decline in physical health. There was a time that I had no idea whether I’d regain any of my capacities I had lost. I have a genetic disease that affects my connective tissue, so I had to give up running, give up biking, and give up a lot of the recreational activities I most love. I remember at one point being completely filled with grief at the loss and sensing this deep longing, a very poignant longing, to love no matter what. Really I just wanted to find some refuge, some sense of peace and okay-ness, openheartedness, in the midst of whatever, including dying. That feels important to me. So True Refuge was approaching a broader domain: How do we find an inner sanctuary of peace in the midst of all the different ways that life comes and goes? How do we come home to that?

DK: When the pain of life brings you to your knees…
TB: Exactly. I remember being very struck by William James, who wrote that “all religions start with the cry, ‘help.’” Somehow deep in our psyches there is always some part of us that’s going, “Okay, how am I going to deal with this life? How am I going to deal with what’s around the corner?” What happens for most people—and this is kind of the way I organized True Refuge—is that we develop strategies to try to navigate life that often don’t work. I call these false refuges. This is in all the wisdom traditions. We know that the grasping and the resisting and the overeating and the over-consuming and the distracting ourselves and the proving ourselves and the overachieving… just don’t create that sanctuary of safety and peace and well-being. It just doesn’t work.So in the book I talk about our false refuges and then explore what are really three archetypal gateways to homecoming. You can find them in all the different world religions including Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and it’s most clear for me through Buddhism. These three gateways are: truth (arising from mindfulness of the present moment), love and awareness. In Buddhism these are ordered differently and called Buddha (awareness), Dharma (truth) and sangha (love).

So the architecture of the book is based on that, and I used a lot of stories—my own stories, and other people’s stories—to address the pain of feeling deficient, but a lot of other struggles also.

No Mud, No Lotus

DK: The parts of True Refuge that were most moving to me were the descriptions of your struggle with your disease, because there is just no getting around how painful and difficult that must be. You really share your cry for help and the fact that you’ve been able to make some peace with it is both awe-inspiring and hopeful, since all of us, as you say, will face our own physical demise. But it does seem like living with chronic pain that severely limits your mobility is one of the deeper sorts of spiritual challenges that we face. Do you feel grateful for what it’s taught you?
TB: Yeah, I do. You know, I’ve heard many, many people say from the cancer diagnosis or the heart wrenching divorce or whatever it is that they wouldn’t trade it for the world. I feel the same way. “No mud, no lotus,” as the Buddhist saying goes. We wake up through the circumstances of our life, and the gift is that when it gets really hard you have to dig very, very deep into your being to find some sense of where love and peace and freedom are. Our experience of inner freedom is not reliable if it is hitched to life being a certain way. If I’m dependent on my body being able to run to feel good, I’m going to be in trouble. I’m actually better than I was before physically, but there were times when I couldn’t leave my house. I couldn’t do much of anything, and there was a growing capacity to come into a beingness and an openheartedness that allowed me to feel just as alive and present and happy as if I could have been romping around outside and running through the hills.I think of that as freedom. I think of freedom as our capacity to be openhearted and awake and have some spaciousness in the midst of whatever is unfolding. The gift of it is that we start to trust who we really are. There’s a sense of trust in the awareness that is here, the tenderness of our heart, the wakeful openness of our being. This becomes increasingly familiar, rather than the identify of a self-character that is able to do this and doesn’t do that and is great or terrible at such and such. We are living from a sense of what we are that can’t be grasped by words or concepts, but can be realized and wholeheartedly lived.

So, that is the fruit of True Refuge—that our true refuge is our true nature. Our true refuge is our true nature. It’s none other. The three gateways are just different energetic expressions of true nature.

DK: How did getting a degenerative chronic pain disease change your work with people?
TB: Before this happened, I was pretty much an athletic jock type that had some vanity around my fitness. And I’ve emerged much more humble, and also much more compassionate towards others. I know what loss is. There’s something I sometimes call the “community of loss,” where each of us has lost something deeply important—whether we’ve lost a partner, or lost a job, or lost our health, our home. I just got back from teaching a weekend at Kripalu Retreat Center in Western Massachusetts, and a number of people there had been hit by hurricane Sandy. One woman was telling me what it was like to have her home totally demolished. The community of loss. The more awake we are to realizing we’re part of it, the more we’re holding hands with others, really the more compassionate a world we have.

Awakening to the World’s Suffering

DK: Speaking of which, I know that political activism has been a big part of your work. You bring issues of social justice into your teachings. One of the things that comes to mind is a talk that you gave about racism within your spiritual community—not overt racism, but a more subtle but nonetheless insidious kind of racism that we find just about everywhere in our culture. It was painful for you to be made aware of it and you shared it as a way to bring awareness into your community. I have also appreciated the way that you struggle with modern politics in your work—trying to remain open-hearted but still having a coherent political voice. How important is it in the work that you’re doing? How has that changed over time?
TB: Well, it only becomes increasingly clear to me that the awakening of our heart and mind means awakening to our belonging to the world and that there’s not a spiritual path that can be extricated or isolated from that belonging. This means that not speaking is in fact making a statement. Our thoughts, our speech, and our actions in terms of the broader community completely matter. They matter. They express our awakeness and then they affect what happens in the world.It feels essential that those who value being spiritually awake recognize that that includes being engaged consciously in our larger world, wherever it is that we feel particularly drawn.

We have to recognize that our earth is dying, that denial is the biggest danger in the world for our planet. We have to be willing to be touched by the suffering of the earth, the air, the creatures that are going extinct, to be touched by the pain that people experience when they’ve been discriminated against and shamed and isolated in different ways, marginalized in our culture—that’s part of being awake and open in the world.

DK: What kind of social or political activism are you currently involved in?
TB: I try to respond to what goes on in our own community, and our community is involved with a number of domains. There are some green activities that are, I think, pretty cool. We’re fumbling around on the diversity front, sometimes in a painful way. Like most communities that have a majority of white people, the big question is how to wake up and be more responsive to the racism that is just naturally there. It’s just part of the culture. I’m also very much supporting getting the mindfulness curriculum and mindfulness in schools around here. And we have a lot of activity around teaching in prisons. So the best I can do as a leader in the Washington area is to support those kinds of activities. As you can tell, I do feel passionately that it’s not meant to be just on the cushion.
DK: So it’s not separate at all—any of it.
TB: Nothing is separate. We belong to this world, and it’s part of the way we’re trying to bring compassion to these bodies and hearts and minds. We need to bring compassion to those that are suffering from an unjust society, and we need to bring compassion to the earth.
DK: Is there a place for anger in this struggle?
TB: Absolutely. We all are wired to have a range of emotions that are just life energies, and to not regard them as wrong or unspiritual is really important, to respect them. They all have an intelligent message, we wouldn’t have been rigged with them if they didn’t. Our work is to learn how to be in relationship with them in a way where we can listen, where we can embrace the life energy and not get identified with the storyline they may elicit.What happens with anger is we can get fixated on, “You did something wrong to me.” When this happens, the practice is, instead of believing the story, to instead see if we can honor the energy and feel what’s going on inside us.

This usually involves bringing real kindness and mindfulness to the feeling of being hurt, the feeling of vulnerability, the feeling of fear, but not buy into the storyline of, “you’re bad and I need to get you back.” Because if we can pay attention to the message of anger—“there’s some threat, I need to take care of it”—and feel where we feel threatened inside, we’ll reconnect with the natural intelligence and compassion of our own heart-minds, and then respond with more wisdom. So go ahead and create boundaries, go ahead and speak your truth, but from a place of presence and intelligence and kindness, not from a burst of reactivity.

DK: Which takes a lot of practice over a lot of time.
TB: Huge practice, because we’re basically moving against our more primal reflexive reactivity, and learning to cultivate a response from the more recently evolved part of our brain. Our conditioning is to have an impulse arise and act out of it, so as to release the tension and feel soothed. It’s coming back to that quote from Victor Frankl. This is saying, “Pause….First come home to the experience that is here and pay attention.” That is the heart of the training, and it takes practice. In True Refuge, I use the acronym RAIN, and I’ve added some different dimensions than are usually emphasized in much of the Buddhist teachings. It’s a really simple and powerful handle to, instead of react, come into a relationship with what’s going on in a much more wise and balanced way.

RAIN

DK: Can you briefly go through what you mean by RAIN?
TB: Sure. RAIN is an acronym to support us in cultivating mindful awareness, and the basic elements of mindfulness are to recognize what’s going on in the moment and to allow it. That’s the core of RAIN: to Recognize and Allow. What happens often is we’ve got a tangle going on—let’s say it’s anger. We’ve got a storyline of the anger, and we’ve got the feelings, and we’re wanting to do something, and it’s all jumbled up. What we’re doing with RAIN is saying, “Okay, I Recognize anger is here and I Allow it.”But it’s still feeling very sticky and very demanding of attention. So we deepen attention with the “I”—Investigate. But it has to be a compassionate investigation because if we investigate as a detached observer, or we investigate and there is some judgment and aversion, then the more vulnerable places within us will not reveal themselves to the investigation. For investigation to unfold to truth, we need to bring real compassion. I sometimes think of it as the rain of compassion or self-compassion, because we really need that quality.

DK: Yeah, it’s so easy to bring a subtle kind of judgment into that kind of investigation. Like, “why do I always trip out on this?” or “here’s my damn depression again.”
TB: If you think of a child who’s upset and you want to find out what’s going on, if there’s not a sense of caring, if you just ask questions, it’s not going to work. So we begin to investigate within ourselves, ”Okay, anger. What am I believing right now?” If we ask that question, it can easily veer off into concepts. But the more we bring a gentle presence, a caring presence, a clear presence to the actual experience of what’s going on, the more there is a shift in a sense of our identity. If you’re very, very present with the anger, you’re no longer the angry person believing in the story; you’re the presence that’s present. You are the awareness that’s noticing. That shift in identity is the whole key to the transformation that Buddha talked about in awakening to freedom. And the body is the major domain of investigating—the throat, the chest, and the belly. Just really arrive and sense, “how is this experience playing out through this body?”After the “I” of RAIN gives us that presence, the “N” is “Non-identification.” Another way to say it is the “N” is “Natural awareness.” We are re-embodying or reestablished in our natural, vast, compassionate awareness.

DK: So, it’s really the opposite of dissociating?
TB: Exactly right. Neither dissociating nor getting possessed. When we’re identified with an experience, either it grabs us and we become the angry person, or we disassociate and become kind of numb and cerebral. Either one of those is, in a way, moving away from the reality of the present moment. RAIN is the way to come into the present moment. We can bring it into our relationships so that when there is conflict with another person, or with another country, or with some “other” that we consider kind of unreal or bad, if we’re able to first bring RAIN inwardly and just sense what we’re feeling and be with that presence and open up our sense of identity, we can then look at another person with the possibility of inquiry. What is really going on here? What is the unmet need? What is your vulnerability? What are the fears or hurts that might have led you to that behavior? We get to see through the eyes of wisdom. RAIN, or more broadly speaking this capacity for mindful awareness, is actually the grounds of compassion for ourselves and each other. It gives us a chance to really sense who we are beyond the mask.
DK: Thanks so much. It has been a joy to talk with you.
TB: Thank you.

John Arden on Brain-Based Therapy

Why Brain-Based?

Rebecca Aponte: Why did you call your book Brain-Based Therapy? What does “brain-based therapy" mean?
John B. Arden: I've got to say that the actual title of the book was chosen by Wiley, the publisher. The earlier title had something to do with neuroscience—I forget, actually, what it was. But when this one was chosen, my initial reaction was, "Geez, that sounds so reductionist."
RA: That’s what I thought, too.
JA: And there's so much out there about neuroscience. A good friend of mine, Lou Cozolino, wrote a book called The Neuroscience of Psychotherapy, so maybe it was too close to his title. But from my point of view, it doesn't have anything to do with reductionism. I still regard Jung's analysis of culture and fairy tales and religion to be fascinating. In fact, I spent a lot of time sitting in yoga ashrams in different parts of the world meditating, and those parts of my development are still with me. I'm still interested in all of that, but I want to integrate it all. And it has to be integrated from a nondualistic perspective. It seems to me that for many years we were in what I call the Cartesian era.

RA: The separation of the body and the mind.
JA: Right. Between 1890 and about 1980, we were in the Cartesian era with no scientific grounding for this view whatsoever because, despite the fact that Freud was a neurologist and wrote a hundred articles in neurophysiology, on such things as the neurophysiology of the crayfish, we didn't really know much about the brain at the time. So the schools of psychotherapy just splintered all over the place—everything from primal scream all the way to radical behaviorism—because there was no common language, no common integrative core.

The picture changed around 1979 to 1981 due to the convergence of a number of different factors. For one thing, the DSM-III—the third Book of Bad Names—developed. And it was a whole lot better than DSM-II and DSM-I, because you didn't have a lot of terms like "neurosis." Even homosexuality, believe it or not, was in the DSM-I. Finally, in 1974, when the DSM-II came out, millions of Americans and Europeans became cured of their disorder. That's why people get really caught up with the diagnostic terms. So DSM-III came about, and there was a whole lot more science to it. People were saying, "Wow, geez, this is so much better. This makes a little bit more sense."

Also, up until about 1980, the efficacy studies for psychotherapy were pathetic. Way back to Hans Eysenck, the mere passage of time was as effective as psychotherapy. Before Timothy Leary went to Harvard, he actually worked for us as a chief psychologist at Kaiser Oakland. He was a pretty bright guy before he started taking acid and flipping out. And he did a study there where he found that people on the waitlist did as well as people in psychotherapy. So imagine all that.
RA: A huge crisis for the field to go through.
JA:

The Age of Pax Medica

Exactly, until the Smith and Glass studies, which came out in 1979 or 1980. I was at University of New Mexico at the time, and we were pretty excited because this big meta-analysis found that, actually, psychotherapy worked. "Oh, my god. What we're studying and what we're doing really makes sense. We're helping people. Thank God!" Then, too, the development of these SSRIs in the '80s was a major factor in the development of what we call Pax Medica.
RA: Can you elaborate on that term?
JA: Pax Romana was a term used to describe the Roman world roughly 2,000 years ago. You could travel anywhere in the Roman world, and as long as you didn't insult Roman gods and Roman law, everything was cool. Similarly, since 1980, as long as you recognize that that psychiatry is in charge and that the number one factor is psychotropic medication, everything's going to be cool. That's why we call it Pax Medica. We've been operating in Pax Medica roughly since 1980. I think we're ready to leave it.
RA: Yet you recently said in a lecture that, in some ways, Pax Medica benefitted mental health.
JA: Because it got us all on the same page. We were all over the place. We were talking about interjected self-objects on one side and behavioral reinforcement paradigms on the other. We didn’t have a common language.

But Pax Medica’s page is extremely one-dimensional. In fact, the common language that we began to use is rather clunky and presumptuous. So we became a medicalized group, and the psychotherapy world became medicalized psychotherapy. And instead of being called “psychotherapists,” we became “clinicians.” “Now, you’re talking.”
RA: “Now you sound medical.”
JA: Now you’re clinically speaking, but what were you speaking before? Is this a new language or something? I’ve sat around in these big meetings where people say, “So what’s the diagnostic picture here?” In other words, they want a name quick, from the Book of Bad Names. And then they say, “What’s medically necessary?” Medically necessary, what? The guy just had a divorce. He’s really bummed out. “Medically necessary” sounds kind of silly.
RA: It sounds you're saying there's a fundamental disagreement about what the role of the therapist is.
JA: Yeah, and I think that the disagreement resulted in a compromised agreement. And the compromised agreement became the clinical role. And the clinical role is, I think, very antiseptic and one-dimensional, and in some ways very subservient to the so-called "principal treatment," which was medication.

Now we know the efficacy studies for antidepressants are rather suspect. The negative studies outnumber the positive studies by 12 times. So the pillars of Pax Medica are actually falling apart in major studies in JAMA and New England Journal of Medicine and other places.
RA: Within the Pax Medica frame, what do you think has been the cumulative effect of the outcome studies that focus on a specific treatment for a specific problem?
JA: Another part of Pax Medica was evidence-based practice. From roughly the early '80s on, various CBT-oriented therapists were the ones doing a lot of the studies on specific methods. David Barlow and others were showing that specific approaches to panic or OCD were more efficacious, and that dovetailed really nicely with the Pax Medica model, whereby you had a diagnosis and you had a prescribed treatment for the diagnosis. There was a positive part of that, because, come on, now—a person with a panic disorder, you want to sit around and analyze their feelings about their mother endlessly? No, you want to get them doing interoceptive exposure and other approaches that have been found for the last 35 years to be much more efficacious than sitting around analyzing archetypes and other things that, even though I find them intellectually stimulating, are a waste of time with somebody with a panic disorder.

So there's a lot more science in Pax Medica, and that's a good thing. But I think we're ready to integrate many strata of science now, to emerge out of the one-dimensionality. Evidence-based practice is still going to be part of the picture, despite the knowledge that the outcome management people have provided us, which is that there are diffuse boundaries between these psychotherapeutic schools.

I'm arguing that we don't need any more gurus.
I'm arguing that we don't need any more gurus. I certainly don't want to be anybody's guru. We don't need another school. I'm not suggesting brain-based therapy is a school and now everybody's got to be an Ardenian. Oh, what a terrible burden it would be to be one of these gurus—and a hollow experience, at that.

Rather, I think we have the opportunity to integrate evidence-based practice—which still is part of the picture for anxiety disorders and depression—with a better look, for instance, at the building of the alliance. The Adult Attachment Inventory and things like that give us insight into the various types of relationships we have been taught to develop, that are going to be replicated in the therapeutic encounter anyway. So why not include that as part of the overall picture? And we know that certain types of brain dynamics and temperament are associated with relationships—neuroscience is a big part of this new equation, as well.
RA: The brain is a popular topic right now, but do you feel that we’re really there yet with the science backing biological theories about how the brain works?
JA: More than we ever have been. I’m also convinced that in five years, I’ll be looking back at what I’m saying to you right now and thinking, “God, John, you had such a limited understanding of what’s going on.” And I think that’s a good thing. So, yes, I think that we can begin to have a dialogue about neuroscience, but are we there yet? No. I don’t think we’re ever going to be totally there. There is no “there.” But we’re going to be far more enlightened about what’s going on. And certainly, not everybody’s brain is exactly the same, but we know that there are psychological syndromes, like anxiety and depression, that have some commonality across people. We ought to be talking about that among ourselves as therapists, and also in therapy with our clients. I’m always talking about the brain with my clients.
RA: A lot of people feel that there’s been an overemphasis on the brain and that therapy has really moved away from focusing on emotions and the human experience. Related to what we were talking about with Pax Medica, there’s a concern that overfocusing on biology closely ties in with overfocusing on pharmaceutical therapy.
JA: I think otherwise. In fact, I think it's an opportunity to focus less on psychopharmacology. Out of the 2,000 of us in the Kaiser system, I'm among the people who refer my clients less for medication evaluations, because I want to work with emotion. That's our province. So how do you work with emotion? Well, if you have people narcotized, you're not going to have access. And certainly with people who have anxiety disorders, anybody on a benzo I'm trying to get off of benzos as quickly as possible.

SSRIs I'm less concerned about, but I only go there when I exhaust all other avenues, including diet, which I'm always talking about at length. Exercise is the most effective biochemical boost that there is—as effective as psychotherapy. Exercise is as good as psychotherapy in alleviating depression. We ought to be doing that and psychotherapy together.

Including all these biophysiological dimensions that don't include the drug cartels is a good thing. Now, the reductionism to a specific neuron—no, I don't go there. Remember, I'm a guy steeped in psychodynamic theory, and I still love all the allure associated with it and all these characters that are battling with one another. It's fun, and it's enlightening in many ways. I think the new psychodynamic perspectives are quite a bit more advanced than the original psychoanalysis.
RA: So you see the new role of the therapist incorporating biology, traditional psychology, but also sleep hygiene, exercise, and nutrition.
JA: Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that we don't pay attention to the alliance. In fact, that's one of the principal effective agents. And we know that from psychotherapy research; the outcome management people have shown that to be pretty powerful. But why not pay attention to those parts of the brain that make that possible mirror neurons, the anterior cingulate, the orbital frontal cortex, the insula, the spindle cells? It's interesting for us to know that some people, if they've had a poor attachment history, have underdeveloped areas like the ones I just mentioned.
RA: You mentioned that you can see this information as a opportunity to teach clients about what may be happening in their brains. How does that help?
JA: Let me give a fairly common example. Say you have a client who says to you, "I just don't know why in the first part of the day, when I lie there in bed, I get so overwhelmed and I get paralyzed with this totality of anxiety. I don't know what's going on there. I get anxious and depressed. What am I going to do?"

Well, we know now from all these affective symmetry studies that people who get hyperactive right prefrontal cortex plus underactive left prefrontal cortex get more anxious and more depressed. And what kindles the right prefrontal side are withdrawal and avoidant behaviors. So when she gets into the withdraw-avoidant behavioral response, she's kindling up the right prefrontal cortex.

Now, how to get out of that? You've got to do what are called approach behaviors. The CBT people have known this a long time—it's called behavior activation. What do you do with depressed clients? Do you sit around and analyze things to death? No, you get them doing stuff. And you get them doing it quick. As soon as you start to feel overwhelmed, it's time to do something, because that kindles the left prefrontal cortex, which is about approach behaviors. But you do it incrementally, because it's always very overwhelming to do big, big projects.

We're not talking about the left hemisphere as being the new cool one now and the right hemisphere as passé, where it was the right hemisphere that was the cool one before. No, we're going to be talking about a relative activation of the two hemispheres. In fact, we know, too, that if you get the right prefrontal cortex knocked out, you lose your sense of humor. What's that about? Well, you want to have a sense of humor, right? A sense of humor is about plays on words, metaphors, juxtapositions, and all of that. You want to have that larger picture.
RA: So all of that also really speaks to how behavior changes the brain.
JA: Absolutely.
Behavior changes the brain and the brain changes behavior. It’s a bidirectional flow of information. It’s not one way or the other.
Behavior changes the brain and the brain changes behavior. It’s a bidirectional flow of information. It’s not one way or the other. Pax Medica had it one way: “Brain changes behavior. All you’ve got to do is tweak up some neurotransmitter system like serotonin, and everything’s going to be fine.”
RA: “Because you have a chemical imbalance.”
JA: "Chemical imbalance" is so American, isn't it? "Okay, let's just go in there and change that chemical imbalance. I want to fix it quick, will you, Doc?"

Come Together

RA: Where do you think we are in the grand scheme of integration?
JA: I think it's slowly developing. There will always be tidal pools that pull back. For example, you mentioned earlier that some people are saying, "Oh, neuroscience. What's the big deal? Neuroscience isn't going to be part of the picture. Get over it." It's going to be, but how is the bigger picture? I think that there are a lot of people jumping in the bandwagon who aren't paying attention to the science in neuroscience. I'm not going to get into names, but some people make it rather New-Agey, and that kind of turns my stomach.

Science is a good thing. We ought to be paying attention to how the research actually shows this or that instead of, "Well, that's kind of a cool thing. Why don't you just talk about the so-called limbic system?"
How we incorporate neuroscience, I think, is going to be a big part of how we advance toward the future. And it's not going to be reductionistic. It's going to be a part of the picture. We're still going to talk about the relationship and pay very close attention to the alliance. And as I said earlier, it works both ways, because there are parts of the brain and parts of our nervous system that respond to close relationships, and that's something we ought to be paying attention to.

The psychological theories and all the alphabet-soup therapists—EMDR, EFT, CBT—the advances in some of those areas, I think, are going to be part of the picture. But I think the allegiance to the schools is going to be increasingly less of an issue.

Reshaping Memories

RA: I think a lot of people in the field really hope that your view is right. What evidence do you see that indicates the field is moving in this direction?
JA: It seems to me that the studies that show actual change in the brain resulting from psychotherapy are what will convince everybody that we’re moving in the right direction. And there’s a wealth of information out there that’s developing and will become stronger and stronger, and it’ll be undeniable that there’s an intersection here. Again, it’s all not reductionism: it’s integration. And memory is a major part of the picture here.
RA: Say more about that.
JA: Understanding memory and the complexities of our various memory systems, including the various types of implicit and explicit memory and how those systems work together to make us who we are, and how we, as therapists, interact with these memory systems—that, to me, is the foundation of therapy. Our job is to help people reconsolidate memory in a much more adaptive and effective way, because there is no such thing as a memory encapsulated in some sealed-off portion of time, where you go back in and you pull it up. That's where the early psychodynamic theorists had it all wrong. Every time we bring up a memory, we change the memory.

That's what we do for a living: we bring up memories in the new context and help people re-adapt in a much more effective way.
That's what we do for a living: we bring up memories in the new context and help people re-adapt in a much more effective way. I regard memory as one of the major foundational aspects to psychotherapy in this unfolding sea change—not a paradigm shift, but actually a sea change—that's occurring in mental health.
RA: You’ve said that it really seems like we’re moving beyond brand-name therapies, but do you think we’ve just substituted techniques? You mentioned CBT. I’m not completely clear on what the theory behind CBT is, other than that it seems very removed from things like memory and emotional experience.
JA: Actually, it does incorporate them. If you think in terms of anxiety, for example, it's quite clear that avoidant behaviors make anxiety worse even though, over the short term, they make it feel less severe.

Let's say I'm a socialphobe and I walk into a room. I feel better for the first minute, and then I feel terrible, and my amygdala gets hyperactive as a result. In other words, I'm painting myself into a corner. Exposure is the antidote—the therapeutic direction that we ought to be working in. And that goes back to Joseph Wolpe, who doesn't get enough credit now, even in the CBT community. The whole idea of incremental exposure is critically important in psychotherapy for people with anxiety disorders. So the CBT people are talking about the brain even though they're not using the brain in their dialogue. They're not mentioning the brain because they haven't been really incorporating it into their understanding. But they are changing the brain, because exposure actually changes the brain. It could make the anxiety worse by flooding too quickly, but incremental change could make it much more resilient and adaptive.
RA: Let me see if I’ve got this right. It sounds like you’re expecting that there would be a much more integrated theory about how psychotherapy works, because it’s going to include neuroscience. And because we have more technology now, we’re going to be able to actually see these changes and understand it, and we’ll continue to see even more levels of complexity.
JA: We are seeing these changes. And in fact, with psychodynamic theory, the whole concept of working through is the same thing as incremental exposure. A book that I like to recommend that's now 20 years old is Psychodynamics in Cognition, by Mardi Horowitz. I really like that book. It was Horowitz's attempt by to talk about the overlap between psychodynamic theorists and cognitive theorists-maybe they aren't talking about something so different. Let's talk about how defense mechanisms and schemata have an overlap. That's what I'm talking about: finding the overlap between these therapy types. Just because they use different language doesn't necessarily mean that they're not talking about the same thing. Where there is an overlap, I get excited about it.
RA: So neuroscience is going to be what shows us that we’re all talking about the same thing.
JA: Neuroscience, and a look at these therapeutic styles. Defensive maneuvers are still relevant, and we can look at them from a cognitive perspective, and from this whole affective symmetry dynamic, as well. In other words, we could look at them from a number of different vantage points, and if all those vantage points have a cohesive quality to them, then I feel much more confident about it.

So we’re not just talking neuroscience or just talking psychodynamic or just talking CBT or memory, but rather how these all can overlap and say the same thing to give us a much more robust understanding of what goes on in psychotherapy and what goes on in our own heads.
RA: Do you believe this integrationist’s frame of reference changes the way that you work with clients?
JA: Absolutely. I've been in the mental health world for 35 years, and when I first started, I was part of this whole the institutionalization movement—we were creating alternatives to hospitals in San Francisco, and then wrote a bill for the New Mexico state legislature in 1980 to do the same thing. What I thought was going on back then is quite a bit different from what I think about what's going on now.

Even in 1976, when I was working with autistic kids—God, we had a stupid understanding of what was going on with those kids back then, because we didn't understand what was happening in their brains. We thought it had to do with these really cold mothers. Bettelheim was our popular hero. My God, what a dumb, dumb way of understanding.

It didn't mean, though, that what we were trying to do, in terms of developing a good relationship with the kids, wasn't a good thing to do. We called it reparenting, but nowadays we'd think about it as being helpful to the kids so they could acquire better social skills and develop a better ability to have human relationships.
RA: This makes me think about some of the preliminary studies in the news now about sudden-onset OCD in children after they have strep infections.
JA: And that has helped us to understand the role of the striatum very well, because that’s the area of the brain that gets attacked viciously in these kids during the infection. And we know that the front part of the striatum is kind of like a spam filter. In people with OCD, unfortunately, that striatum doesn’t work like a spam filter, and the orbital frontal cortex gets flooded with all this nuisance information: “This is wrong, this is wrong, we’ve got to do something, wash your hands, wash your hands,” or whatever it is. Baxter’s group down at UCLA showed very clearly the orbital frontal cortex being flooded with all this nuisance information, and that what can help alleviate the OCD is to “rescue” the orbital frontal cortex with the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex (which has a lot to do with working memory) via CBT with a mindfulness approach. In these imaging studies, you could see OCD patients before and after the treatment. And the strep infection material was supports the idea that OCD involves this “gate” that is left open in the striatum.

But How Does It Work?

RA: Let's walk through a hypothetical. I come to see you because I feel depressed and generally anxious, and this has been going on for some months now. Where would you start to look for the cause of my feelings and some relief?
JA: It's interesting that you say depressed and anxious, because under Pax Medica, if you were depressed and anxious together we would have two diagnoses on Axis I—a comorbid problem. Well, you're one person. Are these two genetic disorders you have? What a silly idea. And the prescribed pharmacological agents actually work against one another. These stupid benzos, which are really a nuisance in the mental health world, would actually contribute not only to addiction, tolerance, and withdrawal problems, but also to depression. And then you'd toss in an SSRI or something like that, so you'd have this weird cocktail.

There is an interesting neurochemistry that occurs with anxiety and depression. For example, for 90 minutes after you experience a severe stressful incident, your levels of dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin will be down. Let's say that you've just found out that you can't get into school. All the PhD programs have turned you down. That's a pretty big blow, right?

So you're going to get a downregulation of all those neurotransmitter systems, and you're going to withdraw a little bit. But it's what you do with that neurochemistry and those neurodynamics that can tumble you into more anxiety and more depression, or get you out of it. If you do things that kindle up the same systems that would get you more anxious and depressed, you'll get more anxious and depressed.

Now, we're going to have bumps in the road. It's what you do in response—it's that resiliency. Some of the positive psychology spinoffs are paying attention to that, and of course the counseling psychologists have long done that.
RA: So, if I were your client, would you want me to tell you about something stressful that happened and what I did afterwards?
JA: I often do that, just to get an idea of how people react to certain events in their lives—to get a characteristic description. I'm also paying attention to the way they describe them to me, because that interaction between us is so important. It replicates other relationships they're having that might have great continuity with the earlier attachment-based relationships. It tells me a lot about how I can intervene, because I don't want to create more resistance. I do like Milton Erickson a lot—that indirect approach. I'm not going to want to shut you down and have you screen me off, but rather do some motivational interviewing to some degree—which is very Rogerian, in fact. Bill Miller was a Rogerian from the school that I came from.
RA: Out of curiosity, did you study with him at UNM?
JA: No, I didn't. In fact, I didn't know about him until after I left. I don't know if he was there then—that was 30 years ago. But had he been there and I missed him, I would have been disappointed, because I really like his contribution to the substance abuse community.

Addiction: A Sliding Scale?

RA: And substance abuse is one thing that we haven't really touched much on in terms of what neuroscience is really teaching us. There's big debate about whether addiction is a genetic disorder.
JA: There is some literature to suggest that if you have two alcoholic parents, your vulnerability to become an alcoholic is heightened. But let's say the concordance rate is 50 percent. Well, what about the other 50 percent? It isn't a one-and-one factor.

In a discussion I had with Fred Blume, one of the pushers of the alcohol gene concept, I asked, "How about an acquired disease? You guys are really into this disease concept." AA's really into it. AA and NA are the most powerful self-help groups in the world, in my opinion. My sister-in-law's life was saved as a result. Fantastic groups. I love their little jingles and all that. But they're too into this disease concept. It's useful in early recovery, but you could create a disease. It's bidirectional. The more I drink alcohol, the more I feel like I need alcohol, because my biology changes. I downregulate various neurotransmitter systems, so now I feel like I need to mellow out because now I'm downregulating the synthesis of GABA. That means I need more GABA-like effect because I'm always dampening down glutamate.

What I think therapists ought to be paying attention to is how these various substance abuse habits, if you want to call it that, create psychological symptomatology. “I see all sorts of people here in the North Bay who are suffering from anxiety and/or depression, and I find out they're just drinking a glass or two of wine at night.”
RA: That’s a lot of wine, though.
JA: I think it’s a lot of wine. I drink a glass every week or two. It would be nice if you could have two glasses of wine a night, but my sleep gets all messed up. You get the mid-sleep-cycle awakening and all that. And that’s a small snapshot. What about the next week? These are subtle effects, but when I used to do neuropsychological testing and psychological testing, and then later teach it, we used to say, “Don’t test a wet brain for up to three months after your last drink.” There are all sorts of artifacts to subtle alcohol consumption.

And red wine isn’t that cool, you know. It’s the resveratrol in the skin of the red grape. You can drink Welch’s grape juice and still get the same effect. You don’t need the alcohol.
RA: And what about other drugs? I haven’t heard too many therapists saying that they necessarily ask their clients, “Do you smoke pot?”
JA: Everybody here does. And pot is one that I really pay close attention to in the North Bay, because of all these people on medical marijuana cards. They have a sore back. Well, give me a break. So do I, but I don’t smoke marijuana now. I did 40 some years ago as a young hipster, but I’m glad I stopped 40 years ago, because otherwise I’d be muddled and kind of down. THC is chemically structured like a neuromodulator called anandamide, which is Sanskrit for “bliss.” It orchestrates the activity of a number of neurotransmitters, so when you’re stoned you get what we call virtual novelty. “Look at this cup! God, that is so incredible. Look at the way it’s shaped, and the colors! This is amazing.” Then the next day you get what we would call in the ’60s “jelly brain,” because everything’s downregulated now. And you never get the same high.

So now what we see are all these people smoking medical marijuana who have low-grade depression. They can’t remember much, because they downregulate the acetylcholine release in their hippocampus and have symptoms very much like ADD. God, I get people with ADD evals all the time who are smoking marijuana.

So with regard to substance abuse, psychotherapists should perform a full analysis of everything the clients are doing, instead of saying such things as, “Do you abuse alcohol?” I want to know what they’re consuming rather than ask blanket questions.
RA: Well, what’s abuse? “Yeah, I have five beers a night, but I’m fine.”
JA: Exactly. But if somebody’s drinking two, I’m concerned about that, especially if she’s anxious or depressed. Or if somebody’s taking a toke of marijuana a night, and he’s coming in with this low-grade depression, muddled thinking, and attentional problems, I’m concerned about that.

Defining Therapeutic Success

RA: In the way that you’re visualizing therapy, how do you define therapeutic success?
JA: We're always a little too symptom focused. I still think we ought to be paying attention to symptoms—that's an important part of the picture—but we also ought to pay attention to what clients are telling us about their overall improvement and their perspective in life: "I'm feeling so much more hopeful and so much more resilient and I'm not as easily stressed." And we're getting more of that from the outcome management process, instead of, "You originally came in with these panic symptoms. How's the panic doing?" "Oh, I don't have those panic symptoms anymore." Well, that's good. That's only part of the picture, though. There's got to be a larger look at things: is the relationship improved, for instance?

Therapists: The Next Generation

RA: As a mental health training director for Northern California for Kaiser, you work constantly with the next generation of therapists. What do you see in their training that concerns you?
JA: What got me intensely concerned and preceded the development of Brain-Based Therapy was typified by an answer to the question, "What do you want to do in the next year?" In the Kaiser Northern California, we have 60 postdocs in 20 medical centers, and another 50 interns. When I interview a postdoc and ask, "What do you want to do over the next year?" they say, "I really want to find my theoretical home." You want to what? We're certainly not going to be helping you find your theoretical home. In fact, I want to dissolve those theoretical homes into a grand unified area. So that's a concern.

And a lot of young therapists come out of these schools too young and inexperienced—they haven't had to go out in the world and learn business and all this, to augment their academic understanding. Between undergraduate and graduate, I spent a year in Asia and the Middle East, and I just kept circling the globe. I was gone for a year, and I don't know how many countries I visited. What an incredible education. I matured so much during that period.

Life experience is critically important. Having to deal with some stressful events can really help a therapist. Just being pumped out of all these professional schools with all these fancy degrees and all that, boy, that's such a limited area. I get a little concerned about too-young therapists being plopped out and wanting to be Dr. Somebody-or-other.
RA: That seems to address my next question: do your intern therapists seem to come with a broad base of knowledge about other aspects of the human condition—literature and art and history?
JA: That's a pretty interesting question. I remember when I was being interviewed for my PhD program, that was a question in the interview. I was in the Counseling Psych department, even though I later got involved in both departments. I was really into talking about Dostoevsky and D. H. Lawrence, and that perked up the interest of the interviewers. Contrast this with the clinical program applicants—I call them the GREs. All they got was a high GRE score and a good GPA. Big deal!
RA: In the next generation, are you seeing much of that?
JA: If you immediately go from a bachelor's to a master's and, usually, especially the professional schools, straight to a PhD program, I see a lot of that. And physicians, unfortunately, hardly read at all. It's just shocking that the educational system kills the quest for reading in diverse areas. It's amazing.

Therapists don't read enough. And when they do read, unfortunately, they read in their own little clubhouse. Where you get more cognitive reserve, if you will, is where you step out of your own zone of comfort. I particularly like to step out of all these mental health areas completely and pay attention to what other scientists are doing.

Particularly, I love complexity theory. When I'm back in Santa Fe, I like to go to the Santa Fe Institute. This place is incredible—founded by three Nobel laureates, two physicists, and an economist. And then there are biologists and computer scientists and archaeologists, all talking about the change in complex systems. Well, aren't we a complex system?

So I think we don't read enough, and not only of another psychotherapeutic school, but, also another area of science. It would be really good for us to do that on a regular basis. I'm perpetually advocating for that.
RA: There are some people who are advocating for academia to do something similar to what you’re saying psychotherapy should do, arguing that there really shouldn’t be such big walls in between each department.
JA: Yeah. In fact, in the Sonoma State University, there’s the Hutchins School, which is very much like St. John’s College in Santa Fe, whereby you have more of an interdisciplinary approach. At St. John’s it’s more of a classics approach, but at Hutchins, you have a department with anthropologists and biologists and other people all there. It’s that interdisciplinary approach that I think is so valuable.

Inside Kaiser

RA: Do you think, working at a large health maintenance organization, that this move toward integration will also eventually break down some of the barriers for clinicians to be able to determine what kind of treatment they want to give to a particular client? Right now, HMOs rely very heavily on CBT because there are so many studies of a specific symptom with a specific treatment.
JA: I don’t necessarily see Kaiser as being a CBT mental-health dispensary. I’d look around at all my colleagues, and one person might be into EMDR, another person CBT, another person steeped in psychodynamic or narrative. But we do pay attention to evidence-based practice. In fact, we have a whole administrative structure just for that. But we also have an administrative structure just for outcome management. The convergence of the two is pretty important.
RA: I’m sure that you’ve heard some of the recent complaints about Kaiser that people have a difficult time getting timely access to mental health care.
JA: That's kind of old news—20 years old. All departments are graded for access right now. I was hired during the Model of Care, which was 20 years ago, where we tripled or quadrupled the size of many departments because it was all about access. Every department now is graded on how quickly a client can come to see someone. If you call in right now, we've got to give you an appointment within two weeks. That's called initial access for the new, and there's a seen-to-seen that we're being graded in, too. We've improved dramatically in the last 20 years.
RA: There is a recent report that union leaders and employees were asking for an investigation to make sure that it was happening in a timely manner. Do you feel like the treatment model that you’re describing can fit well into an organization like Kaiser?
JA: Kaiser's in a difficult position because it's swimming in this vast sea of other medical providers, and it's trying to survive at the same time as thrive—to use that term. So I know what those folks are saying, and we're not immune from any criticism. There are always these concerns about improving, and that's a good thing.
RA: And people having access.
JA: Absolutely. Access is critically important. I know that we're trying to do whatever we can. I'm in meeting after meeting about improving access. We're always talking about improving access, while at the same time we're talking about hiring new people. But where are you going to get the money to hire the new people unless the membership rates go up? It's a complex situation.
RA: You obviously have a very expansive knowledge base that you're integrating. What wisdom do you hope the clinicians that you're training will take away from it?
JA: That there is this exciting sea change occurring in mental health, if you pay close attention to it and if you read voraciously. Just because you’re out of graduate school, we don’t want you to stop reading. We don’t want you to get rigor mortis. In fact, we want you to now read more than you read before, and go to more workshops in areas that you don’t even have any interest in initially. That’s where you get the best change, really, is if you go, “I have no idea what that person is going to be presenting over there.” Those are the ones you want to go to, rather than, “Yeah, I’m really into that kind of therapy.” How many more times are you going to hear that particular frame with a little bit of a twist to it here and there? In fact, you get more neuroplasticity if you get into an area you have no knowledge about at all. What we want to do for this next generation of therapists is to be integrators and to be active consumers of diverse areas of science.
RA: What are your hopes and concerns about the future?
JA: I'm concerned about the economy affecting mental healthcare and, again, as somebody who in the '70s and '80s was helping people who were chronically mentally ill and homeless, I'm really concerned about mental healthcare for the poor. Here I'm in Kaiser right now, and who are the Kaiser members? Well, they're people with jobs. So I'm really concerned about the disadvantaged groups, and that has a political component, too, because if we go Tea Party zone, you're talking about massive cuts in the safety net, and it's pretty primitive.

Into the more advantaged stratum, I'm concerned that, even though I think there's a sea change going on, it could go the other way—the continued focus on these clubhouses. But I'm heartened that things are going to change eventually. I'm totally convinced that they will, because of these converging fields. When it will happen is another thing. It might be more in your generation and in my son's generation who, like you, is applying for graduate schools right now, than my generation. I think for quite a while, we're still going to have the gurus out there. But hopefully they will be talking in more integrative ways and less about themselves, so to speak.

Trusting the Client as the Agent of Change

After thirty-three years as a psychotherapist, I find that my insights regarding human beings and the change process are becoming simpler and easier to articulate, although I cannot establish whether this phenomenon is due to mounting wisdom or to some form of affable cognitive corrosion. Regardless of their source, my accumulating insights have provided me with a true compass that allows me to approach each client with respect, purpose, and hopefulness. I’m certain many readers have experienced the same thing.

Clients as Agents of Change

One guiding principle that emerged many years ago was a simple one: Our clients are the most essential and fundamental component of the change process. Appreciating this oft-obscured and -minimized truth of psychotherapy multiplies our options for understanding and assisting clients, and invites them to participate in the search for understanding and change, a quest that itself serves the client’s life well.

This basic idea—that clients most directly cause psychotherapeutic change—stands in stark contrast to the professional world that today’s therapists inhabit, a world dominated by the medical model, managed care, and the search for empirically supported and/or evidence-based, off-the-shelf treatment approaches, which most often attempt to match technique with diagnosis. Their resulting equations, of course, leave out essential components of psychotherapy: living human beings. Psychotherapists are expected to be capable of essentially “inserting” psychotherapeutic interventions into a human being who is nothing more than an embodied diagnosis—clients are perceived as passive recipients of our expert care. Since the beginning of my professional career, this has seemed to me to be a wholly wrong-headed approach, one that dehumanizes both client and therapist and, in doing so, neglects the most important and meaningful dimensions of human change.

A Casual Conversation

Like many, during my education and even early in my career, I maintained some ever-dwindling hope that an enchanted handbook of foolproof techniques might appear. Happily, my clients taught me differently.

A memorable example occurred approximately twenty-five years ago, when I was working as part of a rural medical practice. A seven-year-old girl was referred to me by her parents for continuing difficulties with bedwetting. While her mother remained understanding, her father had become increasingly intolerant and punitive. Although they had already set an appointment, one day they stopped by the office and asked if I would take a moment between sessions to meet their daughter, perhaps to allay the girl’s anxiety about seeing a therapist. I agreed and soon they brought the girl to my office, where she and I spoke privately. After chatting a bit about her life and interests, she told me how much she wanted to stop wetting the bed. I replied, “Yeah, I wonder what would happen if you could tell your brain, right before you went to sleep, ‘Hey, if I have to pee, go ahead and wake me up.’”

Prior to our scheduled session, about two weeks after our introduction, the girl’s parents called to cancel her appointment, telling me she had quit wetting the bed after our brief meeting. Six months later, they informed me that the change had been maintained. Her presented problem never occurred again. What was the healing factor here? Should I have copyrighted the sentence I uttered, trademarked “Single-Sentence Therapy (SST!),” and begun offering national workshops on its appropriate delivery? Of course not. The healing factor was, without doubt, the girl. She sought an answer and, in the mysterious and magnificent way that human beings often accomplish change, actively and creatively used my tossed-off sentence to forge the change she desired. Of course, at the time my utterance reflected nothing more than sincere musing on my part. Still, this experience dramatically highlighted the client’s central role in successful therapy.

Beyond my experiences, we increasingly see exceptions to the dominant narrative that therapists directly cause client change. Most notably, the work by Bohart and Tallman—their book How Clients Make Therapy Work is, in my view, a classic in the field—lucidly and convincingly makes the case that clients creatively use whatever the therapist offers in order to effect personal change, which explains why techniques have not been found to be the most influential psychotherapeutic factor.

One could argue that the seven-year-old girl’s change was nothing more than an isolated episode of kismet or coincidence, a spontaneous remission that proves nothing. However, another client with whom I worked two decades ago brought the centrality of client self-healing into even sharper focus.

Florence: A Single-Session Case

A case in which a client requests assistance in resolving an undisclosed problem sounds not unlike a patient presenting to a dentist for treatment while refusing to open his or her mouth. This was not an overly dramatic case, but it is unique in that the client shared neither the history nor the nature of her difficulties, and presented only isolated factors for my consideration, yet we achieved success after a single session of treatment.

The client was a 32-year-old unmarried Caucasian female—whom I will refer to as Florence—who lived alone in a rural Midwestern community. For the eight years before her request for therapy, she had been employed as a professional health care provider. At the time of the initial consultation, she had resigned from the facility for which she worked after accepting a similar position in a larger community two hundred miles away. She planned to relocate to her new home in five weeks.  Because she and I had both been involved in health care in the community, we were acquainted with one another on a professional basis and aware of one another’s work with patients.

Florence requested a brief consultation with me at the end of a workday. She disclosed that since early adolescence she had experienced chronic, unspecified problems with relationships and mood, and that before moving to begin her new job, she wanted to address the difficulty, allowing her to “start fresh.” Through our professional association with one another and her discussions with patients over the years, she had come to the conclusion that I was an effective therapist who would be able to provide her with the assistance she desired. She thus entered the therapy relationship with positive expectations about my ability to assist her, as well as her own ability to reach her goal.

While revealing that as a six-year-old child she had suffered a massive trauma that continued to haunt her, she stated kindly but clearly that she had no intention of revealing to me the details or even the nature of that trauma, having long ago come to the conclusion that to do so would hold no benefit for her. She further stated that after extensive research she had decided that hypnosis would help her to resolve her difficulties. She asked me to provide one session of hypnotherapy to resolve the undisclosed difficulty.

From her presentation, my options were clear: to provide the requested treatment or to refuse to do so, in which case she would simply not pursue treatment “until I find another therapist I’m willing to work with.”

Florence had grown up in a suburb of a Midwestern metropolitan area, raised by both parents and having three younger brothers and one older sister. She completed a Master’s degree, which allowed her to provide professional health care services. Never married, she indicated that she had dated in the past, but that recurrent relationship difficulties always interfered with developing a more serious and lasting involvement. Since earning her professional degree, Florence had worked for the local health care facility, where she had been a consistently reliable, popular and successful employee.

According to Florence, she had on three occasions traveled to nearby cities and consulted with therapists. After each of those consultations she elected not to return, believing that the therapists were intent on “doing things their way or no way,” and that a commitment to treatment on her part would have led to extended therapy which, to her mind, was completely unnecessary: “It would be like standing on the caboose of a train, looking backward just to satisfy the therapist. I want to focus on where I’m going. I want to be in the engine.” In particular, she had become disenchanted with therapists’ fascination with her trauma; when she had revealed in the past, it seemed to her that therapists wanted to “worry it like a dog with a bone” rather than to address her current concerns.

Although I had received significant training in clinical hypnosis years prior to our initial consultation, by the time of our session I used the approach only in cases of chronic pain management, for which it seemed ideally suited. My initial training orientation was humanistic-existential, although in the subsequent years I had availed myself of a variety of advanced training opportunities and had become increasingly flexible in my treatment of clients, although I maintained a humanistic-existential view of their functioning. I received training in a permissive, Ericksonian approach to hypnotherapy, since to my mind it was most congruent with my perception of client potential and agency. I therefore had the clinical ability to provide Florence with the service she requested. I was also positively persuaded by my clinical experience to accept Florence’s implicit challenge; I had come to the conclusion that therapy in many ways is a process of my clients and me collaborating to create “doors,” possibilities for change that clients can actively use to effect personal transformation.

In this case, assessment was indirect and decidedly not disorder-focused, instead concentrating upon Florence’s general functioning and history, as well as the presence of other factors that would inform my decision whether to provide the requested intervention. Although one could argue that her vague report could lead to reasonable hypotheses about her disorder(s), there was no way to validate those hypotheses, so basing any treatment decisions on them would have been moot. Therefore, I chose to focus upon other factors that would determine my decision.

After she signed an appropriate release of information form, I reviewed her medical file, which indicated no history of serious medical or psychiatric illness in her or her family of origin. She had not been prescribed any medication other than for short-term specific illnesses, such as infections.

Most importantly, Florence had a precise “theory of change.” She had contemplated her life problems at considerable length and reached a conclusion about what procedure would assist her in resolving her difficulties. She possessed a positive view of the clinician and an expectation for resolution that bordered on certainty, indicating a positive expectation for outcome. Despite her maintenance of a conceptual hedge around her trauma and resulting troubles, she was otherwise quite open, personable and cooperative, more than willing to undergo her preferred treatment. Thus, she appeared to embody the client whom therapy would benefit, even if the specifics of her situation remained unknown to me.

In agreeing to provide the requested treatment (hypnotherapy), the question facing me was how best to provide that treatment in a fashion that would allow me to keep front-and-center the notion that Florence was an active agent capable of using what I offered in a therapeutic fashion. In short, my responsibility was to create a hypnotic approach to treatment that would allow her to actively use both her positive expectations and creativity to change what she wanted to change. More specifically, my approach would ideally provide to Florence what Bohart has described as a “supportive working space.” It was clear: my task was to provide the canvas; she would paint the picture (and not necessarily show it to me).  What type of canvas would I provide? Since she deemed the trauma that occurred when she was six to be central to the formation of her subsequent difficulties, and because she reported experiencing her younger self as being always nearby, her construction of herself as a youngster needed to be included. Furthermore, bridging her experience of herself as a six year-old with that of her present self was important, given her connecting the two “selves” in her presentation. In short, some indeterminate flow of information and affect between her younger self and her current self needed to be invited; a bridge needed to be supplied. She would be the one to cross that bridge. Doing more than that would have been presumptuous on my part if I were to remain committed to respecting her agency and creativity.

I arranged to use a recovery room (the symbolic nature of which was not lost on either of us) in the medical office complex. I asked her to lie down on the bed, to close her eyes and begin relaxing. She responded excellently to the basic twenty-minute guided relaxation and induction process (focusing both on physical relaxation and the development of imagery). Her breathing became diaphragmatic, and I noted little to no muscle movement otherwise. I then asked her to visualize what I would describe in whatever way she chose.

While the entire session lasted about eighty-five minutes, it consisted of my providing only four basic suggestions, after which I allowed Florence to process and work with the provided images, then signal with a raised finger when she was ready for me to continue. Time between delivery of the suggestion and her signal for me to move on averaged ten minutes.

Prior to the suggestions, I asked her to visualize her current self and her six-year-old self standing face to face, and encouraged her to imagine as much detail as possible. After she indicated with a lifted index finger that she had constructed this image, I provided these four suggestions (with significant time between them):

  1. “You can tell your younger self the one thing you want her most to know, and then notice her response”;
  2. “You can ask your younger self to tell you what it is she most needs from you, and then notice your response”;
  3. “You can ask your younger self for the one thing she most wants to know from you, hear her answer, then respond to her”;
  4. “You can ask your younger self the one thing she most wants you to know, hear her answer, and notice your own response.”

Shortly after I provided the first suggestion, tears began streaming from Florence’s eyes and continued until the session ended.  Although I didn’t discourage verbal responses from her, she said nothing during the process. I ended the session by suggesting that she slowly return to normal consciousness and to remember as much or as little as she wanted to regarding what she had learned through overhearing the conversation between her current self and her younger self.

Immediately following the session, Florence indicated that already she was feeling a great sense of relief and movement, but provided no further details. We met once prior to her relocating for our follow-up session, and she reported that her mood was significantly improved and that she was viewing her relocation and new job as an adventure that she was, for the first time, regarding with optimism rather than measured dread.

Two months following her move, she sent me a lengthy letter in which she described the happiness she was feeling and the vague but confident sense that she had successfully left her problems behind her. She was no longer feeling “haunted” by what had happened to her when she was six. Although she remembered it, such remembrance seemed more voluntary, according to Florence; she was able to experience the memory “like a photo in an album, rather than the only picture on the mantle.”

After that initial letter, she sent me holiday letters for nine years. In each one, she detailed her successes not only in her profession, but in her personal life as well. Several years ago she married and, at last report, she and her husband had adopted two children and were living happily and productively.

“To this day I remain unaware of the trauma she had suffered and the resulting difficulties it caused.”

Doors of Possibility

What Florence brought to center stage, more plainly than any other client with whom I’ve worked, was the centrality not only of the client’s trust in me and the treatment I would provide, but also of my trust in the client and her inherent potential for change. For me to proceed with treatment, it was necessary to recognize the level of trust I had in Florence, specifically, and in the clients’ agency and abilities to self-heal, in general.

In attempting to understand the human beings who present for services, it is important that clinicians go far beyond the process of assigning a diagnosis and prescribing a treatment accordingly. Since the validity of most DSM-IV diagnostic categories is questionable at best, assigning a treatment approach based on that designation is at least equally dubious. Furthermore, a significant body of research emphasizes the importance of the common factors, such as the therapeutic relationship, positive expectations, and client self-healing. Both students and practicing clinicians should immerse themselves in the existing literature in these areas, providing themselves with a set of assumptions that counterbalances the medical model with which our culture seems currently enamored. By doing so, we will generate more opportunities and options for clinical intervention, the centrality of our clients’ attributes will not be reduced or neglected, and our treatment effectiveness will be enhanced as we respect our clients’ considerable gifts and abilities that, for the time being, have unfortunately been reduced to faint footnotes in our understanding of the human change process.

Florence’s case illuminated one of those simple truths that come with experience, age and attention, a truth not only about what clients bring to therapy, but also what clients most desperately need in their journey toward change. It’s not complicated.

They need doors of possibility, and they need company.

Jeffrey Kottler on Being a Therapist

The Therapist's Experience

Rebecca Aponte: In your book, On Being a Therapist, you talk about some of the challenges and personal fulfillment that come from being a therapist, as well as the need of therapists to embrace the ambiguity of human experiences and the process of the therapy itself. What did you mean by all that?
Jeffrey Kottler: I don't know.
RA: That’s a great answer!
JK: I've just always been fascinated with the therapist's experience of doing therapy—what that feels like, how it changes us, how it penetrates us. I see the job, or the profession, or the calling, as just being this amazing gift for those of us that are privileged enough to do this work, because of these gems and things that we learn. And I know there are people who do therapy differently than this, but it's just a very weird, strange enterprise, therapy. I mean, trying to describe to your own children what you do is bizarre.

I don't really have a lot of faith that we understand how therapy works.
I don't really have a lot of faith that we understand how therapy works. One thing we're clear about is that therapy does work, but there are just so many competing explanations for that. With that said, what the client brings to us in a session is so overwhelming and so full of content and feeling that we can't hold it. So we have to find ways to live with that—to live with all this uncertainty, and all this mystery, and all this ambiguity. At the same time, our clients are demanding answers and solutions, preferably in this session—if necessary they'll come back a second time, but that's about it. Part of the job of inducting someone into the role of being a good client is teaching them a little bit of patience, and teaching them how to work the process. But all the while we're saying this to our clients, we're talking to ourselves, too, about how to live with the ambiguity of our own lives, trying to make sense of what it is that we do and what we're on this planet to do.

I find it more than a little hysterical, more than a little amusing, the different perceptions that therapists and clients have about their sessions. A couple of my Ph.D. students have done qualitative interviews where they interview the therapist and interview the client, and it's as if there were different people in the room, or different sessions. That's the thing that's so crazy: that we can't even tell when we did a good job. The session is over and we're flying high, and the client never comes back again! What's that about? We delude ourselves: "Oh, they must be cured. It was so good they didn't need to come back!" I remember Albert Ellis told me that in the interview for Bad Therapy: "When they don't come back, it's just because they don't need it anymore; they're cured." Well, good on you that you can delude yourself with that.

Victor Yalom: Do you have any idea what draws you to the experience of being a therapist?
Jeffrey Kottler: I'm interested in the taboo, in the forbidden, in the things that we don't talk about, related to therapy. When I was learning to be a therapist, there were just so many questions I had about things that I was too afraid to even ask because I didn't want people to find out how stupid I was, or to realize that I don't belong in this club. "If people find out what I'm really like, I'm going to get kicked out! I'd better keep this stuff to myself." I would sit in classrooms, and then in case conferences and workshops, and want to scream questions, like: "Do you really think that's what therapy's about?" Or, "What you're saying doesn't make any sense!" I think I read in a book review or something that someone once called me the conscience of the profession, and I'm very flattered by that. But I prefer to think of it more as the role of the little boy in The Emperor's New Clothes: not to expose, but rather to uncover the unsaid. And for me, the unsaid is the experience—not the perverse, but the wonderful, amazing joy that's involved in this journey that we're privileged to be on with people, if not as guides, then as companions on this journey.

We Feel like Frauds

VY: What are some of the questions you have asked or explored in your writing that other people might think of as taboo?
JK: Like, that much of the time we feel like frauds. That we can't do the things that we ask our clients to do. That we lie. That we can't walk the talk. That we don't understand what we're doing and why it works. That our own issues are constantly coming up. Oh, a really good one: that we're not listening to our clients half the time—half the time we're in the room we're somewhere else, while we're nodding our heads and pretending to listen.
VY: And preaching mindfulness.
JK: Preaching mindfulness when we're planning what we're going to make for dinner. And I don't mean to make fun of that. I don't think human beings can stay present. I've been doing this survey for 20 years when I do workshops, asking, "What percentage of the time would you estimate that you are present with your clients on the average, keeping in mind that there are some clients who are so riveting that we really are there almost all the time?" And I've gotten answers between 20 and 70 percent, but the average really is about 50 percent, and I think that's pretty darn good!
RA: That sounds about right.
JK: I think that's a high exaggeration. But I monitor this in myself and I'm kind of amused by it. I'm amused by it right now—as I'm talking to you, I'm somewhere else. I have to go onstage in an hour and there's a part of me that's still planning what I'm going to do in an hour at that stage, all while I'm saying this. And I don't want us to be ashamed of that. I just want to talk about it, because I need to talk about it. In the early part of my career, I was never fortunate enough to be in a very supportive working environment where I could trust my supervisor or my colleagues. They felt competitive; it felt like it just wasn't safe. So because I had to hold onto this in the early part of my career, maybe that's why I had to write.Aponte: It's interesting to use the metaphor of the emperor's new clothes, because there is a nakedness in the way that you write—this insecurity about what kind of a job you're doing, and what kind an impact you're having, if you're having any impact at all.

Yesterday, I was doing a workshop on relationships in a therapist's life, and I was talking about the work I do in Nepal with young girls at risk to be sold into sex slavery; we give out scholarships to keep them in school. It costs a hundred dollars to keep one little girl out of sex slavery, to keep her in school for a year. So it's redefined how I think about money. I was using an example of how my belt broke two days ago, so I went to the mall to look for a replacement belt and saw this amazing alligator belt—$400. And I thought, "That's four girls! That's four girls' lives. So if I could find a belt for $60, then I can…" Even though I don't take the $350 and give it to the girls, I still think that way.

So anyway, someone came up to me after the workshop and she said, "God, it must be so hard to be you, to be so hard on yourself all the time, if that's how you really think about money! You must be in anguish." I had forgotten to mention the other side: that, maybe because I was a cognitive therapist early in life, I don't do guilt. I am really just a peaceful, calm person almost all the time. And I hardly worry about anything that I can't control or do something about. So I forgot to mention that other thing! The way that woman perceived me is that I must be very troubled to talk about this, and think about this morbid stuff all the time, and I must be so hard on myself—all the stuff I write about fear of failure and perfectionism and all that.

There are two themes that live within me. One is that I really am never good enough. After every performance, including this interview, I think about what I could have said, what I should have said, what I wished I'd said. "I can't believe I didn't say that; oh, I forgot that." And then the other part is total and complete forgiveness within five minutes, like, "Okay, on to the next thing. What can I learn from that interview that's going to help me to do that better and be more responsive next time?" So those are the two. And this woman yesterday helped me by asking that question, because I haven't really talked about that—the two, the yin and the yang, both of them living together.
RA: It sounds like the relationship that you have with that part of yourself recognizes that as part of your driving force to constantly get better. And that was the whole point of your book, Bad Therapy: that we can learn this way. It sounds to me like that’s the way that you learn, and that’s the way that you continue to grow—rather than controlling that inner critic, it’s really more like embracing it.
JK: And honoring it, and really feeling grateful for it. I don't learn very much about therapy anymore, reading books or whatever. But I learn so much watching people who are just good at anything they do. I've been reading Gladwell's new book about what leads to success—and it's ten thousand hours of experience. Gladwell's point in The Outliers is that people who are extraordinary in their fields just work harder at it than anyone else. They work at it so hard that it looks easy. And I embrace that idea.
VY: So how do therapists work hard at being better therapists?
JK:
The single best thing that predicts excellence in what we do is how we respond to our consumers.
The single best thing that predicts excellence in what we do is how we respond to our consumers. My consumers are mostly students and readers because I don't do that much therapy anymore. But I want to be a much better teacher that I am. I think I'm really, really good, but not nearly as good as I want to be. And I think that's why, after almost 35 years of teaching, I'm still so incredibly excited about what I'm doing.

Yalom, to get back to your question about what therapists can do, I have friends that have been practicing for decades that see anywhere from 25 to 50 clients a week, basically following the same theoretical orientation they've always used. They report to me that they still very much enjoy their work, and still feel enlivened by it, and I have to tell you that I don't understand that. I believe that they believe it—I think I believe that—but a part of me says it's impossible.

But maybe that's a statement about my own needs for change. I reinvent myself at least every five years because—here's my neurosis right out here—I get so bored with myself. I'm tired of my own stories. I get tired of doing things. I've taught the group therapy course well over a hundred times, and the reason I like teaching group therapy is that it is always different, it is never the same. You can change one person in the group and it's different. That means I'm always challenged and always stimulated.

I think therapists get lazy. I think we've got our favorite stories, we've got our favorite techniques and metaphors that have been tested in the trenches for years. They produce predictable outcomes, so we just go on cruise control: "Oh, here's another one of those." And it works. But I just get bored with myself if I don't feel like I'm learning something new or I'm out on the edge, on a learning edge to get better. But that is more than a little exhausting.
RA: Where do you source your change from? Do you feel that you change in response to what your consumers—students or clients or readers—are wanting from you?
JK: I change everything I can that's within my power to change. For a while I used to change jobs. That was somewhat self-destructive because I had a family and a young son at the time, and my wife and son would always come with me. We lived in Peru and Iceland and Australia, and we lived in five different universities in the United States. I was moving every five years just because I was hungry for something new. And while I don't believe in regret, there's a part of me that feels a little wistful about what it would have been like to be in one place for long enough that I would actually see my students around town as they became professionals. This might be my seventh university or something like that. It's my last one; I'm at an age now where I know this is where I am. And I love that feeling, too. I've changed my theoretical orientation, or at least it's evolved, every two years. I'm amused that when a client comes back to see me after five years, they think I do therapy the same way, and I don't anymore.
VY: Who’s the judge of that? You think you don’t…
JK: I'm pretty sure I don't. Because they expect certain things of me and I sometimes have to explain, "Oh, by the way, I don't do that anymore. I approach it this way. I still remember how to do it if that's what you want, but I've got some new stuff here that's kinda cool; maybe you'll like this too."
VY: Of course. But so much about therapy is the relationship. Although you may feel you’ve changed, do they experience you differently as a person?
JK: Actually, another one of the cool things about aging, at least in the literature I'm aware of in men—but I'll just talk about me—is, as I've aged, I think I've become even more transparent, more authentic, and more willing to take interpersonal risks with clients in session to help them feel safe. I was a therapist when I was 21—and I look young now, but I am going to be 58. But boy, did I look young then.
RA: 21—that’s quite young!
JK: Yeah, it was quite young. So, early in my life, I had to devise ways to get respectability so people would take me seriously. And even when I was in my 30's, I looked like I was in my 20's. I looked in the mirror recently, and I think I'm old now: I have gray hair! I think people look at me as old. Actually, I know they do, because my students now look at me as their father, which is a little depressing. But I like that I've finally reached a point where I look like what a therapist is supposed to look like.

Maybe Doubt isn’t such a Bad Thing

VY: Do you think it’s really important that therapists are honest with themselves about their doubts, about themselves and their work, the variety of their desires?
JK: No, I don't think it's good for all therapists to open up that can of worms if that's not some place where they want to be or some place they want to go, or maybe that's just not their experience. I meet and know therapists that say they don't have doubts. I envy that—I think. No, see, that's a lie! I don't envy that. See, that's one of the lies I mean: I catch myself saying things like that that I don't really believe, but they're the kinds of things I'm supposed to say.
I don't envy therapists who don't have doubts; I mistrust them
I don't envy therapists who don't have doubts; I mistrust them—maybe because it's so far from my experience, and because I think that doubting and questioning lead me to be more of an explorer of things

So I don't think I believe that's the case with all therapists. But the ones who come to my workshops or my classes came there for a reason, so there's a level of informed consent. If someone comes to a workshop or picks up a book that has a title like Clients Who Changed Me or Bad Therapy or whatever, then they're saying, "Okay, I'm open to this." But one of the beautiful things about our work is that there are just so many ways to do this that fit different personalities and different styles.

I go to a lot of programs where experts stand up with total and complete certainty and they say, "This is truth, this is the way it is." And it might often be prefaced with the statement, "The data supports blah blah blah." Or they'll say, "The empirical evidence supports blah blah blah and it follows that…" Because you say, "That's The Data, The Evidence; therefore, there it is," then it ends the conversation. What makes it especially funny is that then you go into the next room and the next conference, and someone says, "The evidence supports…" and then the exact opposite of what you just heard.


RA: So how do therapists bring that ambiguity into the room, or bring their own doubts into the room? Because I imagine that’s part of what makes them human.
JK: You know, I don't bring it into the room. When I and a couple of colleagues about fifteen years ago were looking at all the research on therapeutic relationships—and this was in a book called The Heart of Healing: Relationships in Therapy—I remember what we considered groundbreaking at the time was that there is no "Therapeutic Relationship." The best therapeutic relationship is one that's individually designed and tailored for each client, not for the therapist's convenience. My fantasy is imagining my clients in the waiting room comparing notes about what my therapy is like, and they think they're seeing different therapists. And they are, because I'm not the same with any. If I'm seeing a working-class man who's skeptical of therapy, works in construction and is not sophisticated about the emotional work, we would work in a very different, concrete, specific, goal-focused, male-respectful way.
RA: So it sounds like you actually do bring the ambiguity into the room, but maybe not in a way that your clients would tell. You might bring it by responding differently to each client.
JK: For some clients, I think the source of their anxiety or their depression or their helplessness is that their lives feel out of control because there is too much ambiguity in their lives. So the whole idea of doing a personalized assessment for a client is, if you have too much ambiguity in your life then you need more structure and an illusion of certainty.
VY: So, for you, being comfortable and exploring your own ambiguity feels right, but it’s not something you’re going to share with your client if it’s not helpful to them.
JK: That meets my needs, not the client's needs. I have preferences, as all therapists do, about the kinds of clients I like to work with. My perfect client is me—someone like me, that's got my unresolved issues, so that I get to do my work.
If I had my way, I'd prefer to do a Yalom-esque, existentially based, search-for-meaning long-term relationship, probably with a professional male. If I had my druthers, that's my YAVIS client, my perfect client who would come in. But I get a couple of those in a lifetime.
If I had my way, I'd prefer to do a Yalom-esque, existentially based, search-for-meaning long-term relationship, probably with a professional male. If I had my druthers, that's my YAVIS client, my perfect client who would come in. But I get a couple of those in a lifetime.

And, with managed care and all the other kinds of things, if I have a client who comes in and says, "I have one session with you, this is all we have," I'll do brief therapy like the best of them. I will rise to the challenge, because that's what the client needs. But I can't say I like that as much as I would if I could do relational-oriented work with someone that wants to do some deeper explorations into what gives their life, and all lives, greater meaning. I get off on that, because that's my journey.

I suppose what I teach my students is that it's fine to pick a theory, any theory, doesn't matter which theory—pick a theory to start with or, pick a theory that your supervisor likes because you've got to make your supervisor happy—and then over time you're going to have your own theory, your own way of understanding what this work is about. And that's the growth edge that we were talking about earlier.

I feel sorry for therapists that come to workshops like this to get their CEUs. I see that because I do so many of those workshops. And I can see people sitting in the audience that have this huge sign on their forehead: "I am only here for my CEUs. Entertain me, damn it, because I don't want to be here, and you're not going to teach me anything I don't know, anyway." I might agree with that last statement, and I will entertain them, but I think that's a bit sad that they really think they've got it already.

Integrative Therapy: Replacing “Or” with “And”

VY: When you’re training students and trying to in some way mold the next generation of therapists…
JK: Or grow, instead of mold.
VY: Sure. What do you do to help make it safe for them to explore, to be aware of their own inner world as therapists?
JK: All the things that I'm doing with you right now—that is,transparency and the most brutal honesty that I'm capable of. And modeling for them, as much as I can, that I'm not afraid, and I'm going to show you the parts of myself that I think are least likable. And what do you notice happening when I show you that? My hypothesis is that you like me more—that the more I show you the parts of myself I don't like, the more you respect me and the more you like me. Isn't that interesting?
VY: What you’re advocating is still counter to, I think, the basic framework that we have as therapists.
JK: Is it?
VY: You know, people talk about countertransference, but it’s still almost as if, well, you’ve got to resolve your countertransference.
JK: I believe in countertransference; I believe in projective identification. I believe that those are phenomena that exist. I'd been classically trained in a strong psychodynamic background, a strong cognitive-behavior background, a strong person-centered background. I went through all of those stages and a dozen others in my career. So I honor all of those concepts. I think they exist; they exist within me; I recognize them with me. But it's not either/or, it's and:
the feelings that we have for our clients or our students are both real and projections, not one or the other.
the feelings that we have for our clients or our students are both real and projections, not one or the other.
VY: Sure. I like what you’re saying. I think there’s still a bias in our profession that we work these things through quickly to become “mature” therapists.
JK: I sure don't believe that. But what I love that's happening: it feels like there are other people that are, if not joining me, going way ahead of me in this regard. The whole constructivist movement, narrative therapy movement, and feminist therapy movement, and relational cultural therapy are now all about honoring the egalitarian relationship between therapist and client: therapist not as expert, but as partner, as collaborator.

Therapy was dominated by men and male-oriented thinking for the first century. But now, because my students are mostly immigrants and minority students in Southern California, a lot of the traditional white-man theories don't really fit their client populations. Most of my students are immigrants who work in their own communities. You can't do cognitive-behavior therapy or existential therapy, or person-centered, or Ericksonian, or any of these mainstream therapies—you can't do them as they were designed when you're doing it in Vietnamese or Mandarin or Spanish.
VY: Why not?
JK: Well, I guess you can. My point is there's a tremendous cherishing and honoring of difference, and the idea that you adapt what we do as therapists, not just for that individual client but for the cultural context of their experience, the community in which they live and function. So it feels like there's much more respect for the therapist's experience.

For my next book on creativity, which I'm writing with Jon Carlson, we interviewed a number of therapists, but a couple that stand out are Laura Brown, a feminist therapist, and Judy Jordan, who's a relational cultural therapist. And they both use the four-letter word when they describe their relationship, that is, love: that therapy is about love. And
I believe that it's a non-possessive, non-exploitative kind of love that our clients feel for us and that we feel for them.
I believe that it's a non-possessive, non-exploitative kind of love that our clients feel for us and that we feel for them.

I've been doing qualitative research my whole life, and I had to do it in the dark because it was never respected as legitimate research. Now qualitative research is one of the preferred methods. When I first started doing this, everyone was doing grounded theory, which is ex-quantitative researchers doing qualitative research but being uncomfortable with it, so they do all this coding. Most of my students are doing narrative analysis now, which involves preserving the stories, the lived experiences, the phenomenology of the people they're talking with—being able to do a thematic analysis of it, not the same way that therapists do, but in a parallel process. "What is the meaning of this?" And, "What are the intersections between the lives of these different people I've spoken to?" The last study one of my students has done is with therapists who had clients who committed suicide and who were marginalized afterwards—could never speak about it, could never talk about it.
VY: The therapists?
JK: The therapists. And what's so forbidden about this is that therapists are not allowed to grieve or express their own loss of a client.
RA: It sounds like you get really energized by the exploration of the tremendous variability of human life.
JK: I get excited when I learn something I don't already know; that really gets me going. I like working with therapists and working with students—and for that matter, working with clients—who bring something in that I've never thought about before, never encountered before. It's my fault because I get lazy. Someone comes in and they say, "I'm depressed because I don't have a job," and I think, in a lazy way, "Oh yeah, you're another one of these."
VY: You’re 58 and you’ve written about 75 books, so laziness is the last attribute I would think to describe you.
JK: I meant laziness in my therapy, where I put someone into a category instead of honoring the uniqueness of what they're bringing. Every client really is unique. This kicks in that perfectionistic stuff again—the voice: "Kottler, it's you! You're the problem, not what your clients are bringing you. And if you stop looking at them as being similar, they wouldn't be similar." Then that forgiveness voice says, "Yeah, but you do the best you can. You're busy; you're writing five more books. So give yourself a break."
VY: What it seems you were speaking to is the fundamental trait of curiosity about others and about yourself, which I think is a great trait in a therapist: to be genuinely curious.
JK: Maybe about some kinds of therapists, but I'm imagining people reading this that don't think that way, and I want to honor their experience too.
That's another one of the things that's so great about being a therapist: you can be a therapist so many different ways.
That's another one of the things that's so great about being a therapist: you can be a therapist so many different ways. And it's much harder work for me to do this, but I like helping each therapist develop their individual style rather than trying to be like me or someone else. But it's much easier to teach people, "This is the way." There are some really good habits and skills and knowledge-base kinds of things that everybody must learn and get down before we let you loose to start doing this with other people. Everybody has to start with all these generic skills, and the basic research and theory in a field; developing your own voice is something that happens years later.
VY: It is. I think, unfortunately, people get professionalized and homogenized in graduate school and have to unlearn a lot in order to find their own voice ten, fifteen years later.
RA: Yeah. I’m wondering whether you’ve found that there’s a way to circumvent this. Are you helping students to find their own voice, or to maintain their voice, earlier in their training?
JK: Yeah—back to something we talked about earlier—by modeling the doubts and uncertainties.
RA: Right.
JK: And that's a huge feature of what I write about and teach: "Why would you want to be like me? You might say I'm ahead of you in some areas, but I'm still questioning, still trying to make sense. That's what I want to model that you do, because we never become this finished product." That's another one of the taboos we mentioned earlier. We never—I'm saying we—
I will never get to the point where I think I know what I'm doing.
I will never get to the point where I think I know what I'm doing. And for students to hear me say that out loud, they just eat that up.
RA: It’s liberating.
JK: Yeah! And—now I have to remember the second part of that, the second thread that that person told me earlier—and I'm not bothered by that. I don't worry about it, I don't feel ashamed of it, I don't think about it. It's really good to be me. It's really good to be calm and accepting about the things I don't know and understand.

The Secret to Writing: Just Do It

VY: When you’re working with a client, there must be some times when you feel like you know more, and sometimes you know less.
JK: Yes, of course. And with teaching it's like that as well. But—back to that theme about being bored with myself, bored with my stories—I've repeated some of them in this interview that I've written about in books. And I feel badly about that, because I don't like to repeat myself. And when you've written 75 books, how much experience could a person have to put in 75 books? It's really hard work to go out and find new experiences for the next interview or the next book. And I feel bad about that. Audiences and readers are very forgiving. They say, "Oh, but it was such a good story, it bears repeating." That's so kind, but I hated when my teachers would repeat a story that we already heard before.
VY: I imagine people frequently ask you how you have written 75 books. You probably have some standard answers for that, but could you come up with a new answer?
JK: Here's the new answer, because I've been thinking about this: it's really, really easy. Because people ask me all the time, "How can I write one book, or how do I become a writer?" It's easy: write!
VY: For you it’s easy.
JK: No, it's easy for anyone! If you write, then you're a writer. It's like, I don't decide in the morning when I wake up that I'm going to brush my teeth. I just brush my teeth; it's something that I do. Live, breathe, keep good dental hygiene. So I don't decide I'm going to write everyday. I just write everyday. It's part of who I am, and it's so intrinsically satisfying. I love it so much because it's part of my curiosity. I write about things to try to make sense of the world, and I just love it. There's sex, there's skiing, there's surfing, there's being with my family, and there's writing. And that's what I love. So it's not work. I don't ever have to make time for it. It's just there. It's just what I do. And I'm a really good writer because I've found my voice. People tell me all the time I write just like I speak. So I don't have to rewrite anything that I write. It comes out beautifully in a first draft; when I see editors, they don't have anything to do with my stuff.

I never had a good foundation; I needed glasses. Up through junior high school, my dumb parents never got my eyes tested. I memorized the eye chart in school because I was embarrassed. But the whole world was foggy. I could never see anything. I used to sit right in front of the television to watch cartoons. My dumb parents didn't say, "Duh, this kid can't see. Why do you think he's right in front?" So I could never see the board in school. What that means is I never learned grammar. So I don't have the basics, but I think I learned to write because I just love to write, and I do it everyday.
VY: Well, you have a natural ability. Some musicians can hear a tune and play it on the piano; most people can’t do that. They have to learn the music.
JK: I don't know. You say it's a natural ability. I think I worked my ass off to be able to do this. I think I just flat-out worked harder than anyone else I know to do this. And I still work harder than anyone else I know to do this.

And, by the way, let me just put this qualifying thing: I save so much time in my life for play. I will not do a workshop or a presentation in a place unless there's fun associated with it, or it's someplace I want to go or want to be. I find time for myself. I read a novel a week.
VY: How much do you sleep a night?
JK: That's the thing: I don't sleep very well. But that's bladder-related. And my wife is the same age, so we kid each other that we only need a single bed because one of us is up… including last night. Last night I got up at three and that was it.

I think we're going to have to end here.
RA: Any last comments?
JK: I think the bladder one was a great last comment.
VY: I don’t think we could top that one. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us.
JK: This was fun. You got a good interview out of me because it was fun, dynamic and interactive. And I said some new things, so that's good.
RA: Good, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.