In addition, we at Psychotherapy.net are always scouting out and finding experts to be featured in videos. We have a new video coming out on Emotionally Focused Therapy and another on online crisis counseling. We're always thinking of ways to provide content in a form that is useful to therapists practicing in the field as well as adapting to current times. We realize that while people have grown accustomed to receiving video content in shorter bursts, we haven't quite reduced ours to the 15-second clips of TikTok. However, we are producing, for example, a shorter series called Mastery in Minutes that are up to 30 minutes long where we're trying to present core ideas or skills to therapists.
So, those are some of my doubts. But then the other side is that doubt and uncertainty are inherent in our work. I don't think it's a realistic or even desirable idea that we should reach a state of certainty about our work, but perhaps more comfort with our doubts and our questioning, and our realization that therapy is an ambiguous and creative enterprise.
Our Russian distributors, not surprisingly, are having incredible challenges given the war and the boycotts. We were speaking with them yesterday and they’re actually moving to Georgia, the country, not the state, and we're finding ways to advertise, get payments, have money transferred to Georgia, and then sent here. At least that's the plan.
And with that, there's the potential ethical concern. Obviously, a lot of businesses have pulled out from Russia, but it's not something I've struggled with too much because the therapists there want to learn. They’re certainly not responsible for Putin's madness and butchery. I feel pretty clear that if we can find a way to continue to offer our videos to Russian therapists, that's a good thing.
Well, if it's a good translation, then it should work and that's not my area of expertise but just a little example. I recall looking at one of the transcripts initially done in China many years ago be one of our distributors. They were translating some discussion with my former teacher and mentor, James Bugental, who was referring to growing up in the Great Depression and the ways that impacted him in terms of his attitude towards money. It was quite a traumatic thing for that generation.
I came across the transcript, and I don't recall how I did it, because I don't speak Chinese, but somehow I became aware that they referred to the Great Depression, the historical event, as major depression, the psychiatric diagnosis. So, you have to have good translators. Language is very nuanced.
With our Chinese distributor, they're used to presenting videos in more of a weekly webinar format, so they've taken our videos and chopped them up into 30-minute segments that they offer once a week. They’ve wanted to add some live Q&A to some of our videos. For example, we have a popular course with my father, Irvin Yalom, “The Art of Psychotherapy,” and I've done some live Q&A even though I’m not him. I know the content well, so I’ve been able to answer some questions from the Chinese students that hopefully helps make it more understandable to them.
As part of his work, he often demonstrated various aspects of psychotherapy, including doing demonstrations with us, either through role plays or with those of us who wished to be able to explore our own personal issues, particularly as they impacted our work as psychotherapists, which it always does, of course.
For several years, we kept saying “We needed to get this guy on tape” for the benefit of those around the world who haven’t had a chance to work with him personally. And at some point, I had the great realization that he wasn’t getting any younger. He was 80 years old, so a buddy and I recruited a couple of volunteer clients and secured the services of a videographer to record him doing two sessions with two clients.
Like many ventures, we didn’t really have a goal in mind at that early point. It was not my plan to start a business. I just wanted to make a tape and ended up going to the Evolution of Psychotherapy conference, getting a booth there selling some of these and some other videotapes. One thing led to another after that. But that’s the short version.
There was tremendous demand and excitement, so I realized I was onto something. Now recall this was 1995, right at the birth of the internet, so if you were a professor or a therapist wanting to get or see therapy in action, it was very hard to do. There was no YouTube. There were no online courses. And the few videos that were out there were hard to track down.
What was more surprising was that clients were and still are willing to be on camera and reveal personal things about themselves for the benefit of having the opportunity to get some free treatment by famous therapists, as well as contribute to the training of our field. Of course, not all clients are willing to do so, but every time we’ve wanted to produce a video, we’ve been able to find clients who are willing to bare their souls to a wider audience. I’m always grateful for that, and also feel protective of them in terms of wanting to carefully screen them to make sure that they are comfortable with the types of things that might come up and be willing to edit out material that just felt too sensitive, even if they were willing to share.
I hadn’t thought until you just mentioned it how much value, over and above whatever benefits accrue to the audience of these videos, the clients might reap in being with a master, and how putting themselves out there might give them an opportunity to share in some way beyond the isolated room of therapy, and even truly benefit others who might be reluctant.
I strongly suspect that part of the clients’ motivation in that series was, “I can help normalize this therapy process for African American men who have certain struggles often related to racism, and I want to encourage others who may have similar struggles as me to get therapy and to train therapists in how to better work with this population.” So, I suspect there’s some sense of advocacy and caring that therapists get the best training possible to treat folks that are similar to them in whatever characteristics.
But we have a legacy of titles. And I realized some time ago that we were, not surprisingly, overrepresented with master therapists. Let’s take out the term master therapists, but with White male therapists and Caucasian clients. So I made a conscious effort starting several years ago to produce videos with both therapists and clients of more diversity. So, we’ve been doing that, but I have a lot of catch-up to do.
So, we try to meet both needs. We do try to offer shorter videos, and our longer videos are broken up into chapters. We have some very long courses that might be 6 to 10 hours, but they’re broken up into shorter chapters.
Obviously, we don’t expect someone to sit down and watch that all at once. So it’s broken down as the title implies, step by step, into many small skill sets, and EFT, for people who know, is broken down into steps and stages. So, you can watch our longer videos in shorter chunks and skip from chapter to chapter.
Specifically, in interviews, I feel more confidence that I know a lot about therapy. I have to be a jack of all trades to know a little bit about different techniques and approaches as I’m producing videos of various types. I don’t have the academic background like you do, and don’t keep up as much with the research, but I feel I know enough to ask questions and engage in dialogues that I hope are informative to our viewers and entertaining to watch in the sense of seeing the discussions and the therapy sessions, which are typically featured in our videos as being alive and representing the best of humanity.
And that, to me, suggests a certain degree of confidence, and also an unwillingness to accept what’s offered as expertise without proof of that expertise. So, that’s just sort of a side comment for those of who will venture into this interview, which will probably take more than five minutes to read. I think it’s as important to watch your style of interviewing these masters, and the way you hold them accountable for their presumed expertise, rather than just fawning over these masters.
My drawings were literally stick figures. And when I created the website, I had an idea to put a few cartoons up there, so I hired some people who knew how to draw and took these ideas and made cartoons out of them. And then at some point, an ex-girlfriend of mine said, “Well, you have a very primitive drawing style, you should draw them yourself.” So, I started drawing my own cartoons, and that led me to taking a painting class, and as you mentioned, I now do metal sculptures. But this all started maybe 20 years ago when I was about 40. So, I credit Psychotherapy.net with helping me to discover some activities that bring me a great deal of pleasure.
And in the process of creating Psychotherapy.net, which was just a side hobby for many years while I was in full-time practice, I came to realize that building and growing a business is the ultimate creative enterprise. I had an idea to make a videotape, I took that idea and created something from it, and then that evolved to something else, which evolved into something else.
And now here, you and I are having this interview on a technology that didn’t exist when I started this, so getting finally to your question about psychotherapy; it’s an extremely creative enterprise, just like this conversation. A client comes in and says something and you react, you have internal reactions, and then somehow words come out of your mouth and you say something, and it goes from there.
You don’t know what’s going to happen with what you do with them and what’s going to happen with their life. You try to adapt what you do and what you say in a way that’s going to be helpful. Certainly, there are certain approaches that give you more structure or guidance, and those can be critiqued as overly manualized or cookie-cutter, but ultimately, in my opinion, if you’re going to do work that’s at all meaningful and helpful, you need to find a way to enter their world and to do so in a creative and imaginative way.
You have taken what I consider a heroic step, as you recently transitioned from the man behind the camera to the man in front of it. You did part one of an experiential teletherapeutic interview with an Italian woman. I wonder what it took for you to put the director’s hat down and step in front of the camera and, in a sense, expose yourself to your audience in a new way?
As we know as therapists, it’s hard for clients to really change the way they adapt to situations even when they aren’t helpful. So, we can help clients explore themselves, but often they reach a wall or there are restrictions in their ability to explore freely, and those could be that they intellectualize, that they shut down, that they focus excessively on pleasing you and the people around them and have a hard time accessing their own experiences and needs. So, in the process of getting them to do this internal searching, as he called it, you hit these roadblocks. He taught ways to help identify and loosen up those roadblocks; that might be a way of putting it. So those are some things that he taught me that feel very vital and powerful, and I don’t think are widely known.
So those are a few ideas that I feel are important and I don’t see discussed or represented in most of the types of therapies that are generally taught. Now, there are exceptions to that, but I feel compelled to teach them. And I’ve been mulling over this for several years now. And finally, with the advent of online therapy, it's been much easier to make recordings of not just one session, but longer-term therapy. I’ve just completed the course of seeing a client for 18 sessions, which we recorded, and I’m at the beginning stages of producing a course that will include excerpts of these sessions, and hopefully of some other colleagues as well, to teach some of these ideas.
In terms of approaches, CBT and other so-called evidence-based approaches are being taught much more widely. I have concerns about that. I think that yes, we want to do therapy that’s effective, and yet we seem to have traded on the idea that evidence-based treatment somehow defies this entire other line of valid research showing that the most important elements of change are the therapeutic relationship and client factors.
So I don’t know what the answer is. I’m not involved in policy making or in formal training programs. But I am concerned about the narrowness or limitations that seem to be taught in many of the clinical graduate programs that students are being trained in.
There are obvious other big changes in the field, the most striking of which is the move to online therapy that accelerated with the onset of COVID. And that’s never going to go back to fully in-person, though it’ll be a hybrid model. I think in many ways, it’s a good thing. It’s going to increase accessibility. It’s going to increase availability.
I continue to do a group that moved online. While I was reluctant to do so initially, it allowed people who have moved or are on vacation or in another town to continue to be in the group. So, it’s better in that way, but you do lose the vitality of the in-person group experience.
We all know of these other changes, app-based therapy, chat therapy, different pricing models, etc. There are problems with many of them, the reimbursement rates for therapists are quite low. Does chat have a useful place in therapy? The good thing, I think, is that it’s loosened up this historic and restrictive idea that therapy should be once a week in the office for 50 minutes, which came out of the idea that people have to get in their cars every day and drive to the office. Well, you know, I was guilty of that as well, in having our staff work primarily in the office. Suddenly we realized, as with all our assumptions, that doesn’t need to be the case.
Therapy, like most every other business, has moved online and is doing just fine. So, in terms of therapy, what’s the best way to do it? Can it be fully online? Can you, when possible, combine online with in-person sessions? Should it be every week for 50 minutes? Should it be some more fluid model? I mean, for clients in crisis, why not meet for 90 minutes or two hours, and why not be able to have email or text during the week? Then you have to come up with different pricing models for reimbursement. But surely, we’re not going to go back to once a week in the office for 50 minutes, and I think that’s a good thing.
As we near the end of our time together and this journey you’ve taken us on, I can’t help but to reflect on the passage of time since I was in graduate school and what I have witnessed. And maybe it’s just a function of my getting older, but are therapists getting younger? It seems that therapists are getting younger and younger each day.
Most of the online training seems to be done primarily by talking heads, lectures, webinars, and it just seems crazy to me that this is the way training has traditionally been done in our field, reading books, talking about therapy. In every other field, and I’ve said this over and over and over again, whether you’re a plumber, a dancer, a lawyer, or an architect, you learn by watching others do their work. I mean, you have to study and know the basics, but you learn by watching other masters doing their work, your bosses.
You’re in court. You’re in second seat in a trial, and then your bosses are watching you do the work and giving you feedback, giving you coaching. Hopefully, constructive feedback. So, that’s kind of the essence of what we do, which is to show excerpts of therapy in action and explain why we’re doing it. Now, certainly, we’ll adapt. We’d like to do some live events, live webinars, and do these interviews. I don’t know what we’ll be doing, exactly. People talk about gamification and interactive video. I haven’t seen much of that yet, at least in our field, that’s useful. So, I’m not worried about that.
But I think the great thing about our field is that life experience helps. Yes, you’re more in touch with young students, or have been as a professor for many years, but it’s a great profession for people to go into as a second career. If you start doing this when you’re 30 or 40 or 50, what a gift that you know something about life, having worked in other fields, having children, having a family, having suffered losses that invariably occur. So, you do what you can with the resources you have, and hopefully those grow over time.
I’ve done a number of these interviews, we’ve been on podcasts, and I just realized it’s easy to start telling the same stories over and over again. It’s an interesting phenomenon. And if you think about therapy, it’s easy for clients to do that. They tell a story about the losses they’ve had or the disappointments they’ve had, and it’s important for them to convey that to you. But as Frieda Reichmann has allegedly said, “Patients need an experience, not an explanation.”
I’m sure it’s true for all of us. We have things about ourselves that we don’t feel good about or feel ashamed of or feel vulnerable around. And it’s also true that those, in general, for me, are much more contained and more in the past, and I’m grateful for that.
As I say that, it makes me think about the work of a therapist and the work we do with clients to really cherish and embrace the idea that everyone has this unique world inside of them, and sometimes that world is extremely painful and chaotic. Sometimes that world is just chugging along and doing okay, and sometimes that world is expansive and exciting. It’s strange and honorable, and at times a captivating and rewarding profession to be able to sit with clients and enter their world and see what help we can be to them in navigating their life’s journey.
And I wasn’t looking for this interview to be a growth opportunity per se. I wanted to offer you something interesting; how do I ask interesting questions when you’ve been asked so many similar questions before? There was a part of me that wanted to ask interesting enough questions to interest you, to please you. I wanted, and perhaps still do want, to be interesting, relevant. Perhaps even more so after having retired from the university. I wanted to honor what you’ve done, and I wanted to also provoke you when I could without unnecessarily doing so. I wanted to create, I guess, as in therapy, a safe space where sharing could happen.
This was different from some of the other interviews that I’ve seen conducted with you. I sensed an even greater level of vulnerability, especially in that comment you made about shame, and I was very impressed with your willingness to share that. So, before we sign up as the first two members of the mutual admiration society, I’ll say goodbye and thank you again for welcoming us into your space.
Yes, my mother had good reason to feel relieved when I, at twenty-two, left home for good. I was a disturber of the peace. She never had a positive word for me, and I returned the favor. As I coast down a long hill on my bicycle, my mind drifts back to the night when I was fourteen and my father, then age forty-six, awoke in the night with severe chest pain. In those days, doctors made home visits, and my mother quickly called our family doctor, Dr. Manchester. In the quiet of the night, we three—my father, my mother, and I—waited anxiously for the doctor to arrive. (My sister, Jean, seven years older, had already left home for college.)