Heather Clague on Psychiatry, Psychotherapy and Working with Society’s Most Marginalized Populations

Deb Kory: One of the reasons that I wanted to interview you for Psychotherapy.net is that you’re one of the only psychiatrists I know who both works in a hospital setting and also sees private clients as a psychotherapist. You are the medication-dispensing therapist that so many of my clients wish I were—though I’m so grateful not to have prescribing privileges. It would freak me out.

Since we’re releasing a video this month about working in hospitals and treatment centers, I thought you would be a great person to shed some light on that world. You are in private practice in Oakland, California, and you also you work at John George psychiatric hospital. What is your job there?
Heather Clague: John George is a public psychiatric hospital in San Leandro, California, and I’m an attending psychiatrist in the psychiatric emergency room (PES). It’s the 5150 [California law allowing involuntary psychiatric hold] receiving facility for Alameda County, so anyone who is put on a psychiatric hold in our county will come to us to be assessed for that 5150.

Our model is known as the “Alameda Model,” and it’s a way to reduce the length of stay for psychiatric patients in emergency rooms. In other counties that don’t have psychiatric emergency services like we do, people with psychiatric emergencies are taken to medical emergency rooms and then await an inpatient bed somewhere.
Methamphetamine accounts for a shocking amount of our services. Meth makes you really, really crazy.
And since there are so few psychiatric inpatient beds, they can wait days and days, often strapped to a gurney, ignored in a corner. Medical ER boarding times are significantly shorter in our county than those without a PES like ours, because as soon as the patient is medically cleared they can send the patient to us.

“We have just allowed ourselves not to see them”

DK: Dr. Heather Clague, thanks so much for taking the time to speak to me and our Psychotherapy.net readers today. Truth in advertising: you were my supervisor at Berkeley Primary Care, a community health clinic, where I did a practicum my third year of graduate school at the Wright Institute. These days we sometimes share clients and we also did improvisational theater together for a while. We’re both believers in the therapeutic value of improv
HC: Indeed.
DK: Let’s say someone is having a psychotic break and they go to a regular medical hospital and they get discharged to John George—what then happens to them?
HC: Then they come into our facility and they get an evaluation.
DK: Would you do that evaluation?
HC: I would, yes. We have a doctor-centered model where each patient will get seen by a physician once or twice, or sometimes even three times, and an assessment is made. The idea being that it should be a rapid assessment, that patients are not supposed to be held there more than 24 hours, at which point they will either be admitted to the hospital or released to the community.

But the reality is that our service can become overrun. There can be long delays and patients often still have to wait days and days to get an inpatient bed—although they are at least waiting in a psychiatric emergency room as opposed to a medical emergency room.
DK: Feeling hope and joy in this work really matters.
HC: It matters to me and I think it matters to the people that I work with. I also think there’s something about midlife where one has to reconcile reality with ideals.
DK: It’s humbling, isn’t it? Finding peace in our little slice of the pie, much smaller than we might have once hoped.
HC: But without becoming cynical.
DK: Is that why you only work there one day a week?
HC: For me it’s the threshold. Below a certain amount, I have a very good sense of gallows humor about it. The people I see who work there full time struggle a lot more with the despair and a very grim feeling that comes from working in a dysfunctional system.

The other way the system is broken is that there is a population of maybe 100, maybe up to 500 high users, people who are chronically calling 911. If they were given apartments, free taxi vouchers—just find out what they want and give it to them—it would cost vastly less than the impact that they have on the medical system. And I’m not just talking about the financial cost, but the burnout and wear-and-tear on the people who work in the system. I think there’s pretty good data on this.

If you need to go to an emergency room and you wait a long time, that is a direct result of this problem.

“The overwhelming burden of the radical not-enough-ness”

DK: You would have to retain some sense of hope to do this work. Both of us, really, but I’m quite comfortable in my cozy, private psychotherapy office, whereas you are much more in the trenches of human suffering, where I think hope is often in short supply.
HC: Or, less charitably, I think I’ve got strong internal boundaries. When I was working at Berkeley Primary Care, where you and I met, I had a population of patients that I saw as part of my ongoing caseload, and I ultimately left that environment because it was too dispiriting for me. I followed those patients long term and I think I felt too responsible for them, just this overwhelming burden of the radical not enough-ness. At least in emergency room settings what I’m supposed to do is so tiny, I can do that tiny piece really well and cheerfully and with compassion and humanity so that I don’t have solve everyone’s problems. If I can give them a moment of feeling seen as a human being, that works for me. I think it would be grandiose to suggest it really has a radically long-term effect on the patients that I see, but it allows me to sustain and feel hopeful and to enjoy what I do.
DK: That must be awfully dispiriting.
HC: Well, I can handle it when I work there one day a week.
DK: Wait, so you’re basically also a homeless shelter?
HC: We’re basically also a homeless shelter. And we are emblematic of societal dysfunction. If Alameda county would invest some money in opening up some shelters, the number of patients coming to us and medical emergency rooms would drop. There is no drop-in women’s shelter in Alameda County. There is one drop-in men’s shelter in Alameda County and it costs $5 a night, which is $150 a month, which most people can panhandle if they’ve got the wherewithal to panhandle $5 a night, but that’s a giant chunk of what General Assistance [Alameda county aid program for indigent adults and emancipated minors] gives you.
DK: Because our culture has become immune to it?
HC: Yeah, happy to ignore psychotic people. We have just allowed ourselves to not see them.

We have a large population of homeless people who use us a shelter. And almost all of them are also using drugs, but some of them will just come in and know that if they say the magic words—that they’re suicidal and hearing voices—they’ll get to spend the night. Some of them first present to the nearest medical emergency room, which amps up the expense because there are ambulances involved and there is a medical ER evaluation involved.
DK: So part of your role then is educating them about the dangers of meth?
HC: We do a little scaring them straight. “There are dangerous consequences to continued use, you could lose your teeth”—that type of thing.
DK: Is it?
HC: It’s like Altoid’s, strangely addictive.
DK: Otherwise you’re kind of on automatic pilot?
HC: Well the productivity expectations have gone up and up and up. When I started in 2001, if we had 20 people it was off the hook. Now, if we come in and there’s fewer than 50 we’re like, “easy day!” At the peak this weekend we had 86. I’m just waiting for us to hit 100. It just keeps escalating, and the population of Alameda County has not grown that much.
I think what we’re witnessing is the degradation of the mental health system—the ongoing defunding of the community mental health system and the social system.
I think what we’re witnessing is the degradation of the mental health system—the ongoing defunding of the community mental health system and the social system.

They just keep slashing money from community mental health, caseloads go up, there are fewer case managers and fewer psychiatrists. Services are getting cut or just not growing proportionate to the need.
DK: Wow. I had no idea there were so few shelters around.
HC: There are some other shelters around, but none that you can access on a drop-in basis. It’s an appalling lack of care that our county pays for through the nose, but those who pay for it are not necessarily in charge of fixing it, and so the problem doesn’t get fixed.
DK: Say more about that.
HC: It’s a high-energy place—there’s always a lot of work to get done. It’s very satisfying. There’s all these people that need to get seen and you make a lot of people happy because you send them home.
DK: Do you feel a special affinity with your colleagues there?
HC: Absolutely. The nurses and social workers who work there are fantastic. The people who survive in that environment develop certain social skills and have a certain philosophy of life—
DK: A sense of humor would be paramount.
HC: It’s so important. If we aren’t overwhelmed with patients one day, one of our social workers will say, “Well, we had a mental health outbreak today!”

Also, there’s no calls, there’s no voicemail.
DK: You get to leave it behind when you go home?
HC: Exactly. I have a very intense experience when I’m there and then when I’m done I can let it go.
DK: And do you?
HC: Yeah. I would say I do. Actually, I find it important not to let it go too quickly. Part of the problem of working there is it’s so fast-paced, it’s easy to do it a little mindlessly. So when I’m working in the hospital, it’s actually good for me to tell my husband some of the stories of the day so that I can actually take in that, “Wow, I just had a brush with someone who is having a much deeper, more complicated experience, and I got to bear witness to a small piece of a much bigger story.” It’s important to be able to sit back and reflect on what that story likely looked like.

It’s easy to let my impressions of people fall into stereotypical typologies, so it’s important to pull back from that and realize that there’s a very interesting three-dimensional person behind what looks like “just another meth addict.” This person had a mother, this person came from somewhere, they have a very specific story that brought them to this point.
DK: There’s obviously a deep level of dehumanization that has brought them to this point, and I think you’re saying that it’s difficult to yourself not become dehumanized in that environment.
HC: Exactly.
DK: So you have to find creative ways to stay present and to rehumanize these people.
HC: And oneself.

“People don’t have beds to sleep in”

DK: One thing that’s very noticeable about the Bay Area when you move here are the number of mentally ill people living on the streets. Do these folks make their way to you?
HC:
In our culture, you have to be pretty smelly or lying in the middle of the street or obviously bothering people with your lack of self-care before anyone will really take action.

There are people with chronic psychotic illnesses who become agitated or have such radically poor self-care that they come to attention of the people around them. In our culture, that has to be pretty radical—you have to be pretty smelly or lying in the middle of the street or obviously bothering people with your lack of self-care before anyone will really take action.
DK: Do you see a lot of addicts at the psych ER?
HC: Substance abuse is huge. My impressions aren’t necessarily accurate, but it feels like at least 20% of the people we see are having paranoid delusions because of methamphetamine use. Methamphetamine accounts for a shocking amount of our services; methamphetamine makes you really, really crazy.
DK: It sure does.
HC: And very aggressive.
DK: So what would you do with a meth addict who came in?
HC: Give some Ativan. Let them sleep. Feed them.
DK: Detox?
HC: We can refer to a detox facility that’s right near us, though there are shockingly few detox facilities available.

I think there should be a public health announcement in the Latino community because I see these higher functioning men working two jobs to support their families, who start using methamphetamines to increase their productivity, and then they get psychotic. I don’t think they know how dangerous it is.
DK: That people don’t have beds to sleep in and aren’t being properly treated for their addictions and poverty-related problems?
HC: People don’t have beds to sleep in, which is an easily solvable problem that would not cost that much money. It also would not cost that much money to give some intensive case management to this particular high-using group. Perhaps they are a fairly cynical, seemingly undeserving group, but it’s a funny kind of justice that would create a system like ours to punish them in the way we do. There’s this feeling that if we give those people taxi vouchers, then other people are going to learn that if they spend all their time in emergency rooms pretending to be suicidal, they’ll get taxi vouchers too. But I don’t think the population of people willing to spend all their time at the hospital pretending to be suicidal is that high.

“Well, it is fun”

DK: That’s a really good point. So if you’ve had to keep your workload down to one day to stay sane, why do you work in the psychiatric ER at all?
HC: Well, it is fun.
DK: How long is a typical stay for a patient there?
HC: I’m not sure what the average is, but it’s probably too long. It can range anywhere from a half hour—we get a quick evaluation and realize you don’t need to be there—to 18 to 36 hours. So, a night or two.

If we’re backed up on beds, or there is a placement issue, patients can stay for a number of days. That’s not ideal and everybody in the system tries to keep that from happening.
DK: Why?
HC: Because it’s a rough experience for the patients. It’s a hard place to have to hang out, especially if you’re in psychiatric distress. We have nurses and doctors rotating every shift. We are able to make some limited interventions—start medications, family meetings, have patients participate in some group therapy, but it’s primarily a facility designed to collect observations, make a decision, and move on. It’s clearly a giant step above waiting for days in a medical emergency room, but it is not equal to a good inpatient experience.
DK: Say more about the types of people you see.
HC: The 5150 is applied for danger to self—someone who is acutely suicidal; danger to others—so someone may be homicidal; and grave disability—someone who is unable to provide food, clothing, and shelter for themselves. We see people with chronic psychotic illnesses having a decompensation, people with bipolar disorder who have become manic, people who have a depressive illness and have become acutely suicidal. We’ll see people who aren’t necessarily mentally ill but they just had a breakup and have became suicidal and texted someone they were going to kill themselves.
DK: Are you only involved in the initial assessment, or are you involved in ongoing care?
HC: My general schedule is to work one day a week, so normally I would just do a one-time assessment and would see them over the course of the day if they have needs during that day. Sometimes I’ll work two days in a row and if a patient is still there then I see them again. I can do small interventions, but we’re not an inpatient service.

Bringing Grit to the Comfortable Place

DK: Without becoming cynical, right. Do you feel like your ER psychiatrist role is a separate identity from your role as a psychotherapist in your private practice Oakland?
HC: Yeah, I do.
DK: In a never-the-twain-shall-meet kind of way?
HC: Well, not entirely. I’m me. I’m the same person. But, my role is quite different. They are two ends of a spectrum: Long-term/short-term, higher-functioning/lower-functioning. But obviously the two inform each other. I think it’s good to bring some grit into the comfortable space and compassion into the gritty space. And I definitely feel like using my empathic skills in the emergency room is effective and incredibly rewarding.
DK: Speaking of which, psychiatrists are not often thought of as empathic. It’s all anecdotal, but I’ve not had many people come into my office reporting positive experiences with psychiatrists. Why do you think that is? And why don’t more psychiatrists do therapy?
HC: Well, it’s not as lucrative. If you see three medication patients per hour, you can make a lot more money than seeing one therapy patient per hour.
DK: So it’s purely financial?
HC: Well, also, in order to do learn to do therapy well, you have to feel safe and have time to empathize and mentalize, and I don’t think the medical model facilitates mentalizing.
DK: Because doctors are trying to squeeze in as many patients as possible?
HC: You’re not trying to form a model of the patient’s inner experience, you’re trying to make a diagnostic categorization and then select a medication.
If I can give them a moment of feeling seen as a human being, that works for me.
I think skillful pharmacologists obviously do need to understand the target symptoms, what the side effects are, what a particular person’s concerns about taking medication are. Obviously having empathic skills helps with prescribing medication, but I think it’s treated as icing on the cake. I think that’s true in most medical settings.
DK: When you went through UCSF Medical School, were you given any proper therapy training?
HC: UCSF did a reasonable job of training people how to communicate effectively with patients. I also went to UCSF for residency and that program was very strong in training. But I think that’s not typical for psychiatric residencies. They tend to be more biologically oriented, and I personally feel a bit skeptical about the biological approach of psychiatry. There are obviously illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and severe depression that look like medical illnesses. They look very biological. But the human condition does not want to easily fit itself into DSM V diagnostic categories, and there’s a lot of politics behind why we shoehorn them in there.
DK: Our last interview was with Gary Greenberg, who recently wrote The Book of Woe: The DSM and the Unmaking of Psychiatry, and in it he talks a lot about how inappropriate the medical model is for maladies of the mind. How do you use the DSM? How do you view diagnosis?
HC: I hold it lightly. I have to put some code down there, and I choose from a handful of codes.
DK: Do you have a favorite?
HC: Well at the hospital, we’re allowed to use more of the bullshitty codes, the “NOS” codes. Of course, we can’t put substance abuse as a primary diagnosis because we don’t get paid.
DK: Why not?
HC: I don’t know, actually. The stigmatization of substance abuse? Insurance companies don’t want to pay for addicts who end up in the ER? Perhaps it’s viewed as an issue of volition rather than biology?
DK: Though there’s plenty of evidence for a genetic predisposition toward addiction.
HC: Well, the reason we call it volition is that we don’t have great treatments for it, so it’s blamed on the patient.

But the DSM doesn’t turn me on. I do what I have to do. Probably the biggest diagnostic question that I face is, “is this unipolar depression or bipolar depression?” I don’t want to give a bipolar patient an antidepressant and cause a manic episode, so that is an important practical diagnostic question.

Or “does this person have OCD as opposed to other forms of anxiety?” because that has treatment implications. With OCD, we’ll want to use higher doses of SSRIs and encourage therapies such as exposure and response prevention.

There is No Truth

DK: Well, if I were struggling with the Bipolar 1 or Bipolar 2 question, I’d just send them over to you to figure out.
HC: And I would tell you that there is no truth.
DK: And that would be annoying.
HC: Do you want to hear my rant about bipolar disorder?
DK: Yes, please.
HC: Bipolar got really trendy right around the time that Lamotrigine was being marketed.
DK: Which is Lamictal.
HC: Right. And the evidence for its efficacy is actually pretty weak.
Bipolar got really trendy right around the time that Lamotrigine was being marketed.
People who responded to Lamotrigine who went off of it were more likely to have a depressive relapse than people who stayed on it, but there is no control trial of people having acute depressive episodes on Lamotrigine doing better than people who took placebo. And there are all sorts of methodological issues around discontinuation studies. Even the data on lithium and Depakote is actually quite thin. And if you really want to get paranoid about it, the reproducibility of psychiatric trials is also quite weak.
DK: Because it’s too hard to control for variables? Or is it just that the nature of the mind is still so mysterious? It’s not like measuring the size of a tumor or drawing blood to see if a disease is still present.
HC: Well, we take a cluster of symptoms and we describe them and we put a label on them. Some people are probably very obsessively good at asking really detailed questions—“How many days did that last?” But I can tell you in practice I don’t have the time or the interest to go through it with that fine grain a comb. I screen for things that sound like classical bipolar symptoms, but what is ultra-rapid cycling bipolar disorder and how does it differ from the psychiatric effects of trauma? I mean, does pediatric bipolar actually exist? Kids who are beaten and raped and emotionally abused are going to have rage outbursts and sleep problems.

I saw this young man last week who was put in foster care at age 4, so who knows what kind of horror show was happening in his life before age 4. He’s been in and out of foster care. He’s been in juvenile justice since age 12, and he’s been shooting methamphetamine, and he’s telling me he has bipolar disorder. You grow up that way you’re going to be traumatized. Maybe there are people who have resiliency factors who don’t become mentally ill, but he didn’t look like he had bipolar disorder to me. He looked like someone very, very traumatized, but I’m going to giving him Zyprexa?! That just did not feel like the right solution.

The next guy who comes in, I ask, “Have you ever made a suicide attempt?”

“Oh, yeah, a bunch of times.”

“Oh, what have you done?”

“Well, I swallowed glass and I swallowed razor blades. I drank bleach.”

“When was the last time?”

“Five or six months ago.”

He’s got scars all up and down his arm and all up and down his neck. This patient did not want to talk to me about what happened to him when he was young, but in my mind, his diagnosis is trauma until proven otherwise. But this guy is not carrying a trauma diagnosis, even as a rule-out. He’s only carrying a psychotic disorder diagnosis. That just feels very wrong to me.

I’m partly on a kick because I saw Bessel van der Kolk at a conference, and what he says makes so much sense to me. He put together a diagnosis called “developmental trauma disorder,” which is obviously a trauma-based diagnosis, and one of the major cons of including developmental trauma disorder into the DSM is that it would wipe out a bunch of other diagnoses. It wipes out a lot of ADHD. It wipes out oppositional defiant disorder, borderline personality disorder, a lot of bipolar disorder.
DK: So it wipes out a lot of money?
HC: It wipes out a lot of things that people want to treat with medication. There’s compelling epigenetic research about the way that experience and trauma gets incorporated into your biology and passed on to your offspring, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the primary solution should be to take a pill.

I’m not anti-medication. I think there’s definitely a role for pills, but the fact that psychiatry has put all of its eggs in that basket is appalling to me, especially when there’s a lot of exciting research about non-pharmacological treatments, such as EMDR, neurofeedback, hypnosis, and paradoxical motivational techiques.

How is it that we help our patients? How do we train ourselves as therapists to be highly effective on a kind of session-by-session basis? What did I do in session today that was actually effective? I think we should be collecting a lot more data, both as a profession and also individually. Our impressions are so misleading.
DK: Scott Miller has done a lot of research on what works in psychotherapy and what doesn’t. I think he reported that something like 75% of therapists think they’re better than average, which is, of course, statistically impossible.
HC: That is healthy narcissism. I would want to know what is up with the 25% that thinks they’re below average. I wouldn’t want to see them. I think it’s okay to think you’re somewhat more effective than you are.

Does pediatric bipolar actually exist? Kids who are beaten and raped and emotionally abused are going to have rage outbursts and sleep problems.
But we also need to be willing to take that confidence in ourselves to the next level, so that we can look at ourselves critically and separate out what we do that is effective from what isn’t. I was really intrigued when van der Kolk talked about doing EMDR with a patient who was very hostile toward him. He was asking the patient to be with this traumatic memory and he says, “So tell me what’s going on.” And the patient says, “It’s none of your fucking business.” And van der Kolk says, “OK, go with that,” and he completes the session and the guy tells him nothing about what he was thinking about, but at the end says, “Thank you, that was very helpful.”

So it’s not always clear how the patient liking or attaching to us predicts the kinds of changes they want or that we think they should want. I’m not saying we should encourage our patients to hate us, but I think a lot of us think we’re more effective than we are.
DK: We just recently interviewed Bessel van der Kolk as well as Francine Shapiro, the originator of EMDR, so you are in good company here. They are both big researchers and into collecting data on the efficacy of their work. Do you collect data from your clients?
HC: I’ve started to. I’m training in the David Burns TEAM model of cognitive therapy, and it asks the patient to complete a symptom rating scare before and after every session. So after every session they fill out a feedback form and they evaluate you based on how well you empathized with them, how well they felt that they were able to talk about what was important to them, whether they learned new skills and whether they’re going to do their homework, and then it lets them give a little narrative write up.

It’s very, very humbling. And it has transformed my therapy practice. You have a session you thought was great and then learn that patient didn’t think so! You’re able to come back to the person and say, “You know, it sounds like I wasn’t really getting this. Can you fill me in? How was I off track?” It’s an incredibly therapeutic moment. We’re inviting patients to criticize us and then taking that non-defensively. How many people have that in their lives where they get to actually say to someone, “that kind of sucked,” and to have that received that lovingly and non-defensively?
DK: And with curiosity.
HC: It’s incredibly hard to do. And we’re only human. But I think that having the right kind of training can make it possible.
There is a lot of narcissistic support built into our field for embracing failure.
Allowing ourselves as therapists to really take pride in our failures is what allows us to be non-defensive and to receive critical feedback from patients in an open-hearted way. For example, it turns out my grandparents were right, I really do talk too fast. I’ve heard that on enough feedback forms. That’s humbling, but at least I know I have that tendency, and when it comes up I can validate the patient’s experience. And actually, now that I think about it, I haven’t gotten that feedback as much lately, so maybe I’m actually doing better at slowing down!

To Prescribe or Not to Prescribe?

DK: Do you generally try to do psychotherapy first for a while before prescribing?
HC: So much depends on what the patient comes in expecting and wanting. It’s really interesting, because some people are very clear: “I don’t have the time and energy for CBT. I want a relatively straightforward, easy solution to my chronic anxiety, and I’m willing to take the risks that come from medication. And I only have to see you every six months if I’m stable.” And that works for me. CBT is hard work. Actually, most psychotherapy is hard work and that doesn’t fit for everybody.

And then other people feel like, “I don’t want to take a pill. I don’t want to take medication. I don’t want to be labeled and stigmatized and reduced to that. I want to explore and understand.” It’s a tremendous privilege as a clinician to be able to work with people in such a broad way. The danger is that I’m a little jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. I’m not the most hotshot psychopharmacologist. I’m not up to date on all the latest meds. But I’m really good at SSRIs.
DK: Speaking of SSRIs, given that they work slightly better than placebo, do you tend to psychoeducate people about that, about all the risk, the fact that we don’t even really know why they work?
HC: No. I don’t. Because I want to maximize the placebo response. I give them every testimonial I can. Because they’re not just getting the pill, they’re getting me prescribing the pill. They’re getting the experience of having a relationship with me and so to whatever extent taking that pill is internalizing me, I want that to be a positive experience.

Now, I’m not going to shine them on and say that SSRIs always work or are completely benign, but as drugs go—certainly compared to the mood stabilizers or heavens, antipsychotic medications—I think they’re relatively benign. They’re not so benign for people who might be bipolar, since they can bring on severe agitation or even manic episodes, so I have to be careful there, but otherwise they are relatively benign.
DK: If somebody is clearly suffering with chronic depression, they are in therapy, and they’re open to getting pharmacological help, how many SSRIs are you willing to try on a person before you give up?
HC: The data shows that the chance of it working goes down with every trial. But, again, they’re not getting a pill, they’re getting the experience of paying a fair amount of money to come sit in my nice office, to sit across from me, and have me listen to their story, and then to have a conversation with me about what it means to take medication. And then to have customized dosing.
DK: So it may be that they’re getting the therapeutic effect of seeing you rather than from the pill.
HC: Right. I had a client some time ago with a lot of trauma who had bad experiences with antidepressants, and we shifted him to Prozac and it was going well and I remember him saying to me in session that he was feeling much better, but also sometimes feeling really sad and that it was scary for him.
The expectations of psychiatrists are so low….I get a lot of credit for having kind of average social skills.
I was able to tell him that the fact that the sadness came up right when he was feeling better made me think that maybe his body was realizing it was safe to feel his feelings. I pointed out that he’d had a lot of trauma in his life and lives in a high-pressure culture with a high-pressure career as a high functioning person and that it’s easy to become phobic about feeling sad. And I said, “What do you think about the idea of just allowing the sadness?” And he was so visibly relieved by that.

I think there’s something very powerful about having your prescriber license your sadness instead of pathologizing it. Of course your therapist can do the same thing, but some of what I do is help support therapists whose clients I share. They want to know that they’ve done everything they can in the therapy setting and I can validate that and help them feel less alone in their treatments.
DK: It makes everybody feel more confident, including the clients who feel like, “I have a team working with me.”
HC: Which is why the current model of overburdened, non-psychologically-oriented psychiatrists handing out pills and not calling back therapists probably isn’t the most effective. The expectations of psychiatrists are so low.
DK: No kidding.
HC: I can walk on water because I return phone calls. I get a lot of credit for having kind of average social skills. Very privileged place for me to be in. I will not complain.
DK: Because you’re not a complete weirdo.
HC: There are a lot of very weird therapists out there, too, though.
DK: We are a strange subculture. Or maybe everyone is strange but the standards are higher for us because we’re supposed to be helping people with problems in living?
HC: Well, when you’re vulnerable and need help, you’re really sensitive to the weirdness.
DK: Well, on that note, I want to thank your only modestly weird self for participating in this interview.
HC: It’s been a pleasure.

John Sommers-Flanagan on Clinical Interviewing and the Highly Unmotivated Client

When In Doubt, Act Like Carl Rogers

Victor Yalom: You and your wife, Rita Sommers-Flanagan, are well known in the field for your work in Clinical Interviewing, and we are delighted to be releasing your video on this topic concurrently with this interview, but before we get into that, I know you’ve also done work with mandated or otherwise unlikely and unwilling clients. Much that’s written about therapy implicitly assumes that the client is there willingly, but in many settings, clients are overtly coerced into coming by courts or institutions, or they’re strongly nudged into treatment by their parents or spouses. How do you work with these clients?
John Sommers-Flanagan, PhD: A lot of my thinking in this area sprang from the work I did in private practice, primarily with challenging teenagers. As you can imagine, many of them did not want to be in the room with me, so the challenge was, “How do I engage this person?”

I have a vivid memory of a young man who spent 30 minutes just saying, “fuck you” to me. I remember trying to go through every strategy I could think of. But probably the best of all was just to try to be like Carl Rogers and listen in an accepting way to that particular message over and over again.
VY: Did you literally reflect it back to him like Carl did, verbatim?
JSF: Well, Carl had a case known as, “The Silent Young Man,” where he’s treating this young man who doesn’t want to speak at all, and I think I was trying to channel him in that situation. So I started off by saying things like, “Well, it sounds like all of a sudden you’re pretty angry with me.” And all I got was, “Fuck You.” Then I was saying things like, “It’s clear that there was something I did or said that offended you and I’m not sure what it was.” Then I did a little self-disclosure. After about 15 or 20 minutes, he was still just saying, “fuck you,” but he started singing it to me as 15-year olds might be inclined to do. That went on for 10 minutes and I’m doing my Carl Rogers impersonation, “Well, you sound like you’re not happy, but even though you’re still swearing at me, you’re not angry any more. Now you’re happy and singing it to me.”
What happened next was really interesting. Keep in mind this was not a first session, it was a sixth, maybe seventh session. When he came in the next week, he sat down in the same chair and looked at me. I was anticipating more anger and more resistance, but the first words that he said were, “I’m just wondering, how would you feel if you were to adopt me?” Which was kind of a shocking change, and actually much more difficult than, “fuck you.”
VY: What did you say?
JSF: Well, he said it in this kind of off-handed way, and I just decided at that moment in time that I should try to be genuine and I responded with some disclosure about feeling a little nervous because this was a young man who had a pretty significant history of violence. I said, “I think I would feel pretty nervous about some of the ways that you’ve been with people.” And that launched us into a different discussion.
For me, it sort of captured how important it is to be, as Marsha Linehan might say, “radically accepting of what the client brings into the room.” Or as Rogers would say, “You just kind of work with what you’re getting.” It seemed to help us go deeper and it facilitated exploration and more engagement.

“You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist”

VY: So one thing I get from this nice story is the underlying message of really hanging in there with a client, even in an extreme case where they’re coming in and swearing at you perhaps for the whole session or half a session. Really being there and meeting them head on, and being as genuine as you can.
JSF: Absolutely. A more common example is one that I get all the time with some of the difficult young adults I work with now. A 20-year old very recently came into therapy and I said something like, “Welcome to therapy, how can I help you?” And he says, “You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist.”
This again captures a lot of the pushing and testing that happens with reluctant clients. I said, “Well, thank you very much for telling me that. I would never want to say anything that would lead you to punch me, so, how about if we decide that if I say anything that makes you want to punch me, you just tell me and I’ll not to say it anymore?”And the kid sat back and said, “Wow. Okay. That’s alright with me.”

VY: How do you conceptualize uncooperative or unwilling clients?
JSF: Well, there are few different dimensions. The first is how they’re referred. They’re often referred by a probation officer or principal, or the parents bring in someone or someone is abusing substances and has been given an ultimatum, or a spouse insists on some kind of counseling and so they come sort of unwillingly into the room.
Then there is the way that their resistance manifests in the room. Sometimes it manifests in silence. “I’m not going to talk to you and you can’t make me.” My standard response to that is what I think people have referred to as a concession where I say, “You are absolutely right. I cannot make you talk about anything in here. I especially can’t make you talk about anything you don’t want to talk about.” With teenagers, I will say that and then I’ll pause and I’ll say, “Well what do you want to talk about?” It’s like they need to posture by saying that they won’t talk, and when I concede that they’re right, that they do have control over themselves, then they tend to respond.
Other times, as I’ve just talked about, resistance is much more aggressive. I remember an older man who said, “We might get in a fight in this meeting.” That’s a much more aggressive kind of resisting the initial contact.
And, lastly, there are some people who resist through externalizing, as in, “the problem is with my school,” or “It’s with my spouse,” “it’s with work,” “it’s with everyone but me.” The challenge then is to listen empathically without getting too frustrated, because if I get frustrated and accuse the person of externalizing, oftentimes it just makes them more defensive. Those are three different categories I can think of off the top of my head: the very silent client, the very aggressive, and the very externalizing client who has a lot of trouble taking any initial responsibility for his or her problems.
VY: So aside from acceptance, empathy, and trying to really be there authentically, what are some other key principals for the therapists working with these kinds of clients?
JSF: I don’t know if you remember Mary Cover Jones, who did some of the early work with John Watson on helping young children desensitize their fears, but she said, “We have two means through which we can help decondition people. One is counter conditioning, where you have some kind of positive stimulus that you pair with the anxiety-provoking stimulus. And the other one is through participant modeling.” She wrote about that in 1924, and it was pretty amazing stuff at the time.
So I have started to reconceptualize people who are resistant to therapy as people who are anxious about the situation. I think, “How do I produce an environment that is going to counter-condition anxiety? What’s in my environment that might help people feel more comfortable and less anxious?” It’s another principal I’m often thinking of in a clinical situation.
VY: I can’t help but note that you’re pleasantly eclectic. You’re combining the epitome of humanism, the person-centered approach of Carl Rogers, with hardcore behaviorism.
JSF: I don’t consider myself a behaviorist, but I also think that if we don’t understand behavioral principals of reinforcement and classical conditioning, we can inadvertently do all the wrong things.
Foundationally, I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel.
I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel. Mary Cover Jones used cookies with children, and when I work with teenagers, I absolutely use food. I will have some food, fruit snacks or something nutritional in the room that I can offer, and in some ways I’m thinking absolutely behaviorally at that point. And I’m also thinking relationally—it’s about having a supportive, mutually collaborative relationship. We’re working together.
VY: Can you say a little more what you mean by examples of counter-conditioning anxiety?
JSF: Well, I was just looking through Skype into your space and you have some fabulous artwork. And I think it’s important to have a room that has comforting, pleasant artwork and other kinds of symbols that will help put people at ease. And if you’re working with LGBTQ people, there should be some kind of symbolic communication that you are welcoming those people into your office.
Same thing here in Montana. We work a lot with the Native American population, and it’s really important to have some sensitivity and representation in our office of that sensitivity.
When working with younger clients, the same thing applies. I was supervising a young man who had a 16-year-old boy client who said, “I will never speak to you about anything important in my life, period.” We knew from his referral info that he had been the person to discover his father had hanged himself, so he had some terrible, complex, traumatic grief.
My supervisee said, “What am I going to do?” And I said, “Take the checkers. Take backgammon. Take some games. Take some clay. Take some things into the room. And don’t force him to talk. Just be with him. Play.”
They played for three sessions, just played backgammon. And at the end of the third session, the client looked at the counselor and said, “Well, should we keep seeing each other? Because you said I only needed to come three times.”
And the counselor said, “Yeah, I think we should keep going.”
And the client said, “Well, okay then,” and he pushed the backgammon set aside and starting talking. To me it seemed like a great example of counter-conditioning. They used playing games as the stimulus that was pleasant and non-threatening.
VY: And participant modeling?
JSF: That’s really important, although obviously you can’t really have other people in the room modeling, so the therapist is the model, and is modeling comfort in all things. Comfort when the client says, “I’m feeling suicidal.” Comfort when the client says, “I want to punch you in the nose.” The response is to appreciate those disclosures, instead of being frightened by them. Being frightened by the client’s disclosures is going to feed the anxiety, instead of counter-condition it or instead of modeling, “We can handle this. We can handle this together. It’s best if we do talk about all these things, even the disturbing things that you bring into the room.”
VY: How do you help students, beginning therapists, achieve that? And, how do you balance that portrayal of comfort with authenticity when, in fact, beginning therapists may not feel at all comfortable?
JSF: That’s a great question, and it’s one of the challenges because you want the therapist to be genuine, and yet at the same time you want them to be comfortable. And often those two things are a little bit mutually exclusive.
But I think first of all, information helps. It’s helpful to our trainees and interns and young therapists to really understand and believe that, for example, suicidal ideation is not deviant. It’s not pathology. It’s an expression of distress, and if people don’t tell you about their suicidal ideation, then they are keeping it inside, and they’re not sharing their personal private experience of distress.

I try to do a lot of education around that, whether it’s suicidal or homicidal ideation or trauma or whatever it is that clients might talk about. It’s really important for young therapists to know if they don’t talk about it, we’ll never have a chance to help them with those legitimate, real thoughts and experiences that they’re having.

And the other big piece is practice, practice, practice.

VY: How do you practice these things?
JSF: To give an example, a lot our students initially do suicide assessment interviews, and they’ll say to their role-play client, “Have you thought about hurting yourself?” I’ll interrupt and say, “Okay, now use the word ‘suicide.’” Now say, “Have you thought about killing yourself?” I’m wanting them to get comfortable with the words and to practice using those words so that they aren’t so terribly frightening.
I remember supervising a new student who was conducting an initial assessment, and about half-way through the 30-minute interview, his client says, “I used to have a terrible addiction problem, and one of the things that really has helped me with my recovery is cycling. I’m an avid cycler and it’s really helped me with my drug and alcohol problems.”
At which point, he freezes in panic and says, “So what kind of bike do you have?”
I stopped the tape and said, “Hey, what was going on?” He says, “I was scared, I didn’t want to open things up.”
I said, “Well she did. She opened it up. She shared with you that she had an addiction problem, that she was in recovery, and that she had a method that really is helpful to her. So it would be perfectly natural for you to then use your good active listening skills and ask an open question or do a paraphrase or reflection of feeling, and to stay focused on the target, which was addiction recovery coping, instead of asking what kind of bike she had.”
So it’s a combination of offering encouragement, practice, and feedback.
VY: In addition to behavioral principles and humanist principles, what other theories or principles do you draw from?
JSF: Well, in the psychodynamic realm, I’m thinking of Edward Borden’s work on the working alliance and his effort to generalize it from the psychoanalytic frame to other frames. And the emotional bond between therapist and client, which Anna Freud wrote about initially. We really try to facilitate that.
We also engage in collaborative work toward goal consensus between therapist and client, and it could be that we agree that the therapeutic task involves free association and interpretation and working through. Or it could be a therapeutic task that involves exposure and a real behavior modification approach.

Clinical Interviewing

VY: You and your wife Rita Sommers-Flanagan have written a comprehensive and widely-used textbook entitled, Clinical Interviewing, about the initial stage of therapy, where you’ve examined and broken down in great detail all the aspects that those first few sessions. Can you explain what you mean by “clinical interviewing?”
JSF: It’s a term that originally referred to the initial psychiatric interview, which has a lot of assessment in it. So it refers to that initial contact. But as we have grown, we’ve come to see it as not just an initial contact. In some ways, every contact is a clinical interview in that every contact involves this sort of two-headed goal of assessment and helping. And then the third component is the working alliance, or the therapeutic relationship.
As we know, assessments in a clinical interview produce more valid data if we have a good working or therapeutic relationship. The evidence is very clear that therapy outcomes are more positive if we have a positive emotional bond, and we’re working collaboratively on goals and tasks. So I see the therapeutic relationship as central to the assessment and the helping dimension of the clinical interview.
VY: It’s the beginning phase of therapy.
JSF: Yes.
VY: In reading your text and also in viewing the video we’re releasing conjointly with this interview, you really emphasize the importance of the therapeutic relationship or rapport-building as an integral part of that initial contact.
JSF: Right. Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
VY: Because you’re not going to get much information or accurate information if they don’t feel like you’re on their side?
JSF: Absolutely. It’s about establishing trust and helping people to be open. I’m very familiar with your father’s work, and in The Gift of Therapy, he writes, “In recent and initial interviews, this inquiry into the typical day allowed me to learn of activities I might not otherwise have known for months.
Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
A few hours a day of computer solitaire, three hours a night in Internet sex chat rooms under a different identity, massive procrastination at work, ensuing shame. A daily schedule so demanding that I was exhausted listening to it.”
And he goes on and on about these disclosures that he was able to get by asking a simple question, “Tell me about your usual day.” To me, that’s a great example of how rich the assessment data can be with a simple question, if you have a positive rapport and therapeutic relationship.
VY: So it seems like a fundamental balancing act that you’re always dealing with is how do you balance getting sufficient information—particularly if you work for an agency where forms are a part of the process—while establishing sufficient rapport. Because if they don’t come back for a second session, the treatment is surely a failure.
JSF: Right, how do we balance the information-gathering task that we might have for our agency with the relationship task? And how do we do that with culturally diverse clients?
One of the things we try to do in the Clinical Interviewing book is to go into detail—with an outline and structure—of different kinds of initial clinical interviews, including the intake and the mental status exam, suicide assessment, diagnostic interviewing, and other kinds of interviews, yet emphasizing throughout the importance of the relationship.
So if I have a checklist that my clinic is requiring me to fill out, I would say to the client, “This part of our task today. I am supposed to ask these questions and record your answers, but I also want to hear from you in your own words things that you’re experiencing. So I’ll try to balance that with you.” And I’ll actually show them the questionnaire or the checklist.
VY: So be transparent.
JSF: Be transparent. Absolutely.

Multicultural Competence and Moving Beyond Your Comfort Zone

VY: You mentioned different cultures. What are some particular considerations that come to mind about that?
JSF: Well, some of the principals that come to mind for me involve respect for the native culture here in Montana and throughout the U.S. I think respect is a core part of beginning any relationship. And I think respect involves understanding and being able to pronounce the names of various tribes, asking very gently and respectfully about tribal affiliation here in Montana. I will sometimes say that I know some people from, say, the Crow tribe who have been students in our program. Even if they don’t know the particular students, it can be helpful to hear that I have had contact with somebody who’s got the same tribal affiliation as them.
Cultural competence also means that we take the time to read and study about working with Latino or Latina clients. It also involves using what Stanley Sue referred to as “dynamic sizing” and “scientific mindedness,” where we try to figure out, “Does this cultural generality apply to the specific cultural being in my office?” That’s a difficult but very important thing to determine.
VY: Just a couple weeks ago I had the privilege of interviewing Stanley Sue’s brother, Derald Wing Sue, on multi-cultural issues. One of the things he emphasized was really getting outside of your comfort zone and getting to know these other cultures on a more than superficial level.
JSF: Another thing he really emphasizes is the question that can’t help but be in the back of the mind of many minority clients: “Is this therapist the kind of person who will oppress me in ways that other people in the dominant culture have oppressed me and my family, my tribe, or my culture?”
One of the remedies that he and others have talked about is for therapists to be more transparent, and use a little more self-disclosure. Because without doing that, there’s just no good evidence that we’re not the oppressor or the “downpressor” as some Jamaicans would say.
So diving into the culture, getting to know it on more than a surface level, and then being able to use some of the principals that Stanley and Derald Wing Sue have articulated well is essential. It makes things much more complicated and much more rewarding.

Intake Essentials

VY: There are many models of how that initial client contact occurs—from a brief telephone intake to, in certain settings like substance abuse or mental health treatment centers, having a designated intake worker who passes on the client to interns or therapists. Do you have a general recommendation or sense of what the best practices are for the initial intake?
JSF: Well, in agencies where there is a handoff from an intake worker to other therapists, it can be difficult to maintain the therapeutic connection. In that case the initial session becomes much more about clinical assessment than initiating therapy.
Constance Fischer and Stephen Finn have written about these kinds of therapeutic assessments since at least the late 1970’s, and they suggest complete transparency through the process. “Here’s how things work in this agency.
This will be my only session with you. I would like to work longer with you, but what I’m going to be thinking about during our time together is who might be the best match for you for ongoing counseling or psychotherapy.”
Without that transparency we run the risk of alienating the client—leaving them feeling like, “Oh, man, I have to go through all this again with another person next week?”
VY: It’s hard enough for people to get into treatment in the first place. As I often say to clients, “People are not usually waiting in line to get the therapy.” It often takes people years.
JSF: Right, and when we put another hurdle there it makes it even more difficult. So it’s important to explain the hurdles and let them know how best to get over the next hurdle.
VY: Is your general sense that it’s better not to have a separate person doing the intake if possible?
JSF: I think it’s better to have the same person do the intake and then continue with therapy. There are, of course, exceptions to that. If you have someone who is not well-trained in substance abuse therapy, and then it becomes clear in the first intake session that this person has an active substance abuse problem, transferring the person to a therapist or counselor who has that experience would be a better fit.
And you can just explain that to the client, although oftentimes the client will still say, “Oh, but I’d rather work with you.” But as long as you have a good rationale, you can make that transition relatively easily. So, yes, it’s best to have the same person do the intake and then continue with the therapy, except in situations where there’s a clear rationale to do otherwise.

Treatment Planning

VY: What are your thoughts about treatment planning? There’s a lot of emphasis on that in many agencies. Do you think that’s something that actually can be done with any specificity? So often someone comes in thinking they’re here to work on X, and six weeks later, you’re really working more on Y. So at times I wonder who the treatment planning process is really serving. Is it really serving the client, or is it serving some agency needs, some funding needs, or the anxiety of the therapist?
JSF: I remember an old supervisor saying to a group of us, “We’re not technicians. We can’t really lay out a protocol for exactly how to act with every client. Every client’s unique, so we need to go deeper than that. We’re professionals, and we bring both art and science into the room.”
I think it’s important to blend the two.
I’m not a big fan of cookie cutter treatment plans. But I am a fan of looking at the plan, talking with the client about what our plan is, and being somewhat explicit and collaborative in that process. I see it as a kind of dialectic—it’s a little bit cookie cutter in that it doesn’t bring in much of the individuality of the client but it does have some important information for us. From there we can dive into the unique qualities of the client and their experiences.
As an example, let’s just say you have a client who’s impulsive. We know that there are certain kinds of treatments that we might use with someone who is diagnosed with ADHD who is impulsive, where those impulsive behaviors are getting him or her in trouble. It’s good to know about CBT and other kinds of therapies that might help with impulsivity. But it’s also really important to get into the mind and, in some sense, the body of that individual client to understand what’s going on with that person.
But knowing that there are probably triggers that increase and decrease impulsivity is something you’d want to work on with a CBT treatment plan. It can help focus the questioning, even if you’re working from an existential perspective.

“Evidence-Based” Treatment

VY: As you’re a professor at the University of Montana, and actively involved in training students, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about the major trend towards “evidence-based” treatment? There are a lot of leading figures in the field who are critiquing this trend. John Norcross talks about evidence-based relationships, since research actually shows that most of the positive outcomes in therapy are based on the relationships and not on this or that technique or procedure. Are you pressured by accrediting agencies to teach evidence-based treatments? What have your experiences been in this regard?
JSF: Yes, there is a lot of pressure to incorporate “evidence-based,” or “empirically-supported treatments.” When you look at Norcross’ work, you have to shake your head and wonder why we focus so much on technical procedures and evidence-based treatments. The science just really isn’t there. There are studies done that show X or Y treatment is effective and, therefore, it becomes evidence-based. And yet there’s a mountain of evidence saying otherwise, that it’s not the specific protocols that make a positive treatment outcome.
There are these voices in the wilderness, like Norcross, crying out about this, but there’s still this inexorable trend towards requiring these evidence-based treatments in training students and in various government agencies, for example.
The cynical side of me would say it’s about trying to get our share of the healthcare dollars. Shaping ourselves to be in the medical model, since there are empirically-supported medical treatments. Of course, there is some real scientific evidence that we should be aware of when working with our clients. We should be, because we’re professionals in this area. Like Norcross writes about, there are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures. There are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures.
But we shouldn’t ignore all technical procedures because, even Carl Rogers would say, “If the technique arises spontaneously out of a particular place where you are in the counseling process, then it may be appropriate.”
VY: In wrapping up, any advice you would give for students or early career therapists just starting out?
JSF: I think my biggest advice these days is to focus on balance: The balance between the science and the art, the balance between the relationship and assessment and diagnosis. We need some diagnostic information in many real world situations, but we should not try to get that at the risk of damaging the therapeutic relationship. The impulse is for people to go one direction or the other. I was at a workshop one time where a woman referred to people as science “fundamentalists,” which I thought was a very apt description of some people. They have this allegiance to the paradigm of modernist science, and that’s the only way truth is known.
Then there are people who are much more touchy-feely and go with the flow. My general advice would be, if you’re more of a touchy-feely person, you really still need to learn the science. You still need to read the clinical interviewing text and understand the content that is our professional foundation. And if you’re more inclined toward scientific fundamentalism, you need to get out of that box and try to learn from the other side of the dialectic, which is the relational, emotional side of things that happen in the therapy office.

Advice for the Late-Career Therapist

VY: So let’s use mid- or later-career therapists as an example. By that time in their careers, many have migrated to private practice and have gotten very comfortable in their own ways of being with clients. In many ways that’s a good thing—it’s part of the career progression to take everything you’ve learned along the way and integrate that into who you are as a person. But one drawback I see is the possibility of just jumping into therapy with any client who walks in your office—assuming they’re a good fit for you—without maybe doing a proper assessment. And then they find out six months down the road that the client has a drinking issue that they hadn’t disclosed before. Any advice for these later-career therapists?
JSF: Yes. I’m not in full-time private practice right now but I have friends who see 35 people a week, and are doing the kind of thing you’re talking about.
It’s so easy for us to get into a little niche where we do it our way, and we’re no longer open to other ways of thinking. I’d say it’s really important to keep stretching yourself, to keep reading, to keep going to professional workshops, because we can do things wrong for years and think that we’re actually being successful.
Scott Miller is emphasizing it now more than anyone else–but it’s incredibly important to get systematic feedback from our clients so that we can get a sense whether we’re on the right track with each individual client.
Even though we sometimes can convince ourselves that we’re incredibly intuitive and we can, therefore, launch into therapy immediately, there is some research that suggests that negative outcomes correlate with inadequate assessment. So we do need to step back and do a little formal assessment here and there, even though, as experienced practitioners, we might think, “I know what to do here. This is not a problem.”
Instead, step back and to say, “Let’s do a little bit of assessment here so we can work together to make sure that we’re on the right track.” In other words, mid-therapy adjustments and assessments to make sure that we are helping our clients as effectively as possible.
VY: A final question: What’s your growing edge right now as a teacher and practitioner?
JSF: I have several growing edges. One growing edge that’s pretty constant for me is working toward greater cultural sensitivity, and being able to know more deeply about people who come from diverse minority kinds of backgrounds.
Another growing edge for me is the whole idea of mindfulness and how to incorporate that into some of the more traditional ways that I was taught to do psychotherapy.
I think the other growing edge for me is kind of a growing foundation. The person-centered principals for me have always been foundational and I find myself sometimes really wanting to go back to those. I can see myself in future months or years going to some trainings to get even better at the things that I think are my basic foundational skills.
VY: I often have the opportunity to review some old videos that we’ve acquired or produced and just recently watched the first video produced with James Bugental, a human-centered existential therapist. I’ve probably seen that video 20 times and I still appreciate it, perhaps on an even deeper level.Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

JSF: Thank you very much, Victor. I very much appreciate your work and the fact that you have dedicated a lot of your life to making the work of other great therapists accessible to all of us.

First Impressions in Psychotherapy

A woman wrote to me, having heard me on a radio programme. She had picked up my concern that not enough attention was being paid to the quality of the therapeutic relationship (as opposed to techniques) and wondered how her 25 year-old son, who was seeking a psychotherapist, could assess that in advance of therapy when neither of them knew any therapists where they lived. The obvious answer is that he should wait until he and the therapist meet. Therapy is after all a personal relationship and only by knowing the person could there be a real alliance. If on meeting the therapist for the first time, he felt uneasy or badgered or misunderstood or puzzled or demotivated, then perhaps the therapist was not the right person and he should find someone else. But is that right?

First impressions are important. Think of meeting someone for the first time and how even after the end of a brief exchange, you have already formed an opinion of them. I met a neighbour at a party my wife and I gave, someone I was prepared to like having already met his charming wife. To my surprise, I disliked him. What was it about him that provoked this strong reaction? Thinking back, I realised it was that he had shown not the slightest interest in me and my attempts to engage him in conversation had been met with distracted inattention. I even resented the fact that, when I moved past him to get someone a glass of wine, he made no effort move aside! (This says as much about me as him, I realise). A prospective client could do something like this, evaluating the therapist by how he or she responded and how the client felt in the session.

But therapy is not the same as a conversation. Most therapists are good at putting clients at ease, asking questions sensitively, listening attentively and making the client feel safe and understood. For most clients the experience of the initial session is likely to be positive, allaying anxiety, reinforcing the hopeful expectation that at last help is at hand. Unless the therapist is distracted or disturbed, the first session will generally pass well. That does not mean the therapy will always be bathed in this arm glow of positivity and, if it were, we might wonder whether the therapy was really that helpful. As Patrick Casement points out in his autobiographical memoir, Learning from Life, good therapists must learn they should not always be nice to their clients.

In the first session unconscious processes in both therapist and client will be at play. I recall reading about a client who knew from the therapist’s name alone that he would be the right one for her. Once I heard a client’s hesitant and garbled message on my answering machine and that made me reverse my just made policy of not taking on any new clients. And on another occasion, opening the door to a new client I took fervently against her and, to my shame, manoeuvred the session so that I could refuse her help. For all these factors, conscious and unconscious, the first session may not be the best place to judge the therapeutic relationship, although of course a judgment will inevitably be made. The truth is that the success of the relationship can be judged only in the experience of it.

Perhaps I should be a bit more psychological in my response to this woman’s question. Why was she contacting me, not her son? Was she just an over-protective mum, simply anxious that her son should find the ‘right’ therapist? Or was she anxious that he would find such a therapist who would replace her? Was she seeking help for herself? I don’t know and, no longer being in practice, means I will never know. My first impressions therapeutically occur now only in the virtual world and that is altogether different.
 

Assessing Partner Abuse in Couples Therapy

Mark and Julie were in their late thirties, and had been married for seven years after living together for three. During their initial session with me, they expressed concern that they had been drifting apart over the past year. They were both under considerable stress. Julie’s planned six-month leave of absence from her job following the birth of their son Brandon had now lasted four years. Brandon required lots of Julie’s time: he was highly impulsive, displayed frequent temper tantrums, and recently bit another child at daycare. Mark supported the family as a salesman for a medical equipment firm, but getting along without Julie’s income meant longer hours and more frequent travel.

“We hardly ever have time for each other anymore,” said Mark. “And I’m out of town so often these days that it’s hard for us to readjust when I get home. Julie is always preoccupied, either with Brandon or something else, and our relationship isn’t a priority for her the way it used to be.”

“We don’t communicate well,” added Julie. “We argue about parenting Brandon, about my housekeeping, about Mark’s being gone so much of the time . . .”

“There’s an example of one of our problems,” Mark interrupted. “ I don’t feel like she appreciates how hard I work to support us. Traveling on business is no picnic, I can tell you. I miss being home with my wife and kid.”

To most outward appearances, this was a couple caught in the typical dilemmas of our age: how to balance work and home life, how to be both parents and intimate partners, how to get one’s own needs met while meeting the needs of the other.

Mark and Julie had been in conjoint therapy twice before; each stint had lasted about one and a half years. Their first therapist, they told me, helped them understand how their relationship replicated themes from childhood. A couple of years later, when their arguments grew more frequent, they decided to try a new therapist. Mark liked their new therapist’s pragmatic approach and appreciated learning how to make “I statements” and practicing reflective listening. Mark felt that he had finally gotten through to Julie about his concerns. Julie agreed that the therapy had been helpful, but wasn’t willing to continue because there was too much focus on Mark’s concerns and not enough on hers.

When I asked Mark and Julie how they argued, they reported that Mark frequently raised issues in an angry way. Julie would withdraw, and Mark would press for resolution. She sometimes burst into tears during these encounters, and he saw this as her way to avoid addressing his concerns. Yet they both reported that their arguments “never get physical.”

Over the next few sessions, I gave Mark and Julie typical homework assignments. We discussed taking time-outs when their interactions grew too heated. We reviewed and practiced reflective listening skills. They voiced an appreciation about each other every day. And despite difficulty finding a babysitter who could handle Brandon, they managed to schedule two “date nights” over the next two weeks.

I did not yet realize it yet, but I was making the same error as their two previous therapists: I was attempting to do couples therapy with an abusive relationship.

Obligation to Assess

Many therapists, including those of us with extensive clinical experience, frequently plunge into doing therapy before we have adequately assessed whom and what we are treating. It is in the nature of the therapist-client relationship that we cannot know the whole story from the outset. Our clients may be lost, confused, withholding, or in denial. They aren’t ready to divulge everything at a first session (and if they were, we would probably wonder why). In the cause of establishing a working alliance, we leave avenues of assessment unexplored until a more opportune moment. Assessment and treatment necessarily walk hand in hand as the ongoing process of discovery and healing unfolds.

However, none of this relieves us of the ethical and professional obligation to carefully assess factors that may undermine treatment. “Sometimes we collude with our clients’ denial systems, deliver services that are misdirected or even harmful, and allow problems to get worse, under the guise of providing treatment.” Meanwhile, our clients continue to believe they are getting help, and we continue to collect our fees. Whether the undiagnosed problem is addiction, bipolar illness, domestic violence, or some other weighty issue, part of our job is to make educated guesses and follow up on them.

One error I encounter with troubling frequency is the failure of couples therapists to assess adequately for partner abuse. By partner abuse, I mean the use of force, intimidation, or manipulation—or the threat to use any of those methods—to control, hurt, or frighten an intimate partner. Note that the definition can be met even if no physical violence is involved. Verbal and psychological tactics are more common; frequently, they are also more effective at controlling, hurting, or frightening another, and they can be more emotionally damaging in the long run.

I have met with couples whose seasoned therapists, over the course of several years’ treatment, missed the extent and severity of the physical and emotional abuse taking place at home. We might be tempted to believe that clients bear some responsibility for staying silent on the issue (whether out of fear or outright denial), but the obligation to assess rests firmly on our shoulders. For example, an abused partner may feel unsafe bringing up abuse in the presence of the other because of likely retaliation, yet many therapists have a policy of never meeting separately with one member of a couple they are treating jointly.

Regardless of the reason for the assessment failure, the tragic result can be months or years of continued abuse. “Suffering” is a pallid word to describe the soul-damaging, spirit-deadening impact of ongoing abuse on the abused partner and the children who live with it. The corrosive nature of some abuse leads to an erosion of the self that can be extremely difficult to reverse. The effects are cumulative and must stop before healing can begin. Additionally, abuse generally grows worse without intervention. Meanwhile, clients incur a sizable expenditure of time and money, and the therapist (and, by extension, our profession) loses credibility.

Common Misconceptions

Several common misconceptions hamper or prevent an adequate assessment of partner abuse.

“The couple report that they yell at each other, so they both contribute to the problem.”
Loud arguments should always suggest the possibility of partner abuse. Most abusive relationships involve some angry behavior by both parties; some involve mutually abusive behavior as well, although the degree of fear is generally much greater for one partner than the other. While both partners are responsible for their own behavior, one of them probably contributes disproportionately to the abuse.

“I spoke to them about partner abuse and they deny it is going on.”
As therapists, we know better than to accept clients’ analyses of their difficulties and to probe more deeply. “If an angry client reports that he believes in firm discipline but would never abuse his children, do we simply take his word for it?”

“It is my policy never to meet individually with clients I see in couples therapy.”
Adequate assessment for abuse cannot be accomplished with both partners in the room. Asking directly about abuse in a conjoint session puts the abused partner in a no-win position: to disclose and risk reprisal, or to deny and thereby avoid getting needed assistance.

“I have a ‘no secrets’ policy, so clients know that anything they share with me individually will be brought into the couples session.”
In my view, such a policy is designed to relieve the therapist’s anxiety and hinders rather than helps the client. As therapists, we often learn things we cannot or choose not to divulge. Holding some information in confidence is a small price to pay if it allows us to leverage our clients into the right form of treatment.

“Even if there is undiagnosed partner abuse, I’m helping them resolve the underlying relationship dynamic.”
By its very nature, abusive behavior prevents the resolution of other issues. Abuse skews the relationship dynamic and leaves most of the power and control in one partner’s hands.

“I can teach them better communication skills until they trust me enough to disclose the issues they are withholding.”
Abusive partners easily subvert communication skills at home. “I” statements are meaningless if the intent is to hurt, control, or manipulate.

“I’m not taking a stand on the issue because I’m afraid the abusive partner will bolt from treatment.”
Again, the delusion here is that some treatment is better than none. What is needed is a referral to appropriate treatment, rather than maintaining the fiction that the couple is getting help while the abuse continues.

An Abusive Dynamic

At their next session, Mark and Julie reported that their second planned date night had started out well. They ate dinner at a quiet restaurant, reminisced affectionately about the first time they met, and held hands as they shared a frozen yogurt. Brandon was asleep when they got home, even though it was still relatively early. When they went to bed, Mark anticipated they would make love; Julie was tired and just wanted to curl up and go to sleep. Mark persisted, saying that this was the only chance they’d had for sex in a while so they’d better take advantage of it. Julie said she was tired of his “guilt trips.” He said she was frigid and accused her of withholding sex to punish him.

They had carried on late into the night as the argument broadened to include many other areas of disagreement. The conflict continued in my office the next evening.

” . . . And I appreciate how hard he works to support us,” Julie was saying. “But when he gets back from a business trip, he’s constantly finding fault with the way I keep the house, the things I wasn’t able to get to. He thinks I’m too soft with Brandon and that’s why he’s been acting up at daycare. It’s true that I could do a lot better job of housecleaning, and I paid the credit card late last month. My hands are so full with Brandon that everything else seems to take second place. I know I need to get better at setting priorities, like Mark says, but I feel like I’m doing the best I can and I wish he appreciated how hard my job is.”

Mark was restless but listened quietly while Julie spoke. When it was his turn, he spoke quickly, with increasing agitation and volume.

“She talks about not being appreciated. Well, she doesn’t do a very good job of appreciating me. I work really hard to support us at this level, and you’d think I could at least come home to a house that didn’t look like a bomb hit it. And Brandon is out of control because she doesn’t know how to set limits with him. He never acts up with me the way he does with her. Plus, she has the entire day to spend at home and take care of the things I can’t get to because I’m out of town. Brandon’s in daycare now, and she has so much free time to get together with her girlfriends for coffee . . .”

“Now, wait just a minute!” said Julie angrily. “That only started a couple of weeks ago!”

“No, you wait a minute!” replied Mark in a louder voice. “I don’t appreciate your angry tone, and I didn’t interrupt you when you were talking. I’d appreciate it if you could show me the same respect!”

“It’s hard to sit still while you misrepresent things,” she said petulantly, slumping in her chair.

“There you go again. When I give my point of view, I’m misrepresenting things. “ He turned to me. “You see how this goes. She never seems to respect my opinion. Everything I say, she counters it.” He raised his voice. “She treats me like she doesn’t even like me anymore! Ever since Brandon came along, our sex life has gone out the window. She always has something else on her mind, or she’s too tired, or I don’t know what.”

“Maybe if you treated me with more respect, I’d feel more like getting close to you,” Julie replied softly.

“See, there you go again. It’s always my fault!” said Mark. “We disagree on so many things, I’m really not sure what’s keeping us together anymore!”

There was a pause. Mark’s face grew darker and his brow furrowed as he spoke. The skin around Julie’s temples grew taut and her shoulders sagged.

“Tell me, is this kind of how things go at home?” I asked. “You start to talk about an issue, and things escalate? Mark, you seem angry and frustrated, and Julie, you seem angry and resigned. I can see that there are a number of issues on the table. But I’m wondering if I’m getting to see how your efforts at communication get off track. Is this how things go when they don’t go well?”

They answered simultaneously. “Pretty much,” said Mark. “This is mild by comparison,” said Julie.

“So what would typically happen at this point?” I asked.

“Mark usually kicks something, then leaves the room,” said Julie, hands crossed over her chest.

“Oh, really? What about you turning on the water works, then giving me the cold shoulder and playing the Ice Queen for three days?” said Mark, pointing his finger at her. “You left that part out. As usual!”

“OK, hold on a moment, both of you,” I said. With ten minutes left in the session, I felt the need to intervene, based on the growing escalation, the content and tone of the communication, and Mark’s increasing impulsiveness. I also feared that their disagreements were severe enough that continuing to talk about them would result in yet another argument as they left my office.

“There’s been a lot of heat expressed in this office today, and I’d like you both to cool off before you leave. I want you both to take a few nice deep breaths, s-l-o-w-l-y. Good. I want you to drop this argument, and I want you to agree not to talk anymore about these issues today.” We spent a few minutes addressing the difficulties they might experience in keeping to this agreement.

It was now clear to me that this couple was caught in an abusive dynamic. Mark had initially given the impression that he was listening to Julie, but he shifted restlessly as she spoke; when she finished, he responded quickly with an increasingly angry and critical tone. He blamed her for their problems and employed various strategies—such as exaggeration, distortion, and counterattack—to deflect any suggestion that he might also bear some responsibility for their difficulties. When Julie attempted to correct his misrepresentation of her coffee dates, he turned the tables by attacking her for the interruption and accused her of having less respect for him than he had for her. Mark felt free to express his anger but could not tolerate Julie expressing hers. He accused her of employing the very tactics he used (for example, “Everything I say, she counters it”). Mark demeaned Julie for the upset feelings she experienced following his angry outbursts and her subsequent need to pull away.

By contrast, Julie recognized some of her contributions and validated many of Mark’s concerns. Her brief efforts to defend herself were quickly overwhelmed by Mark’s responses. Her petulant tone and slumped posture were signs of defeat.

Indicators of Partner Abuse

Like Mark and Julie, clients in abusive relationships present with typical complaints: “We don’t know how to communicate with each other.” “We’ve been arguing a lot.” “We’re both under a lot of stress.” “We’ve needed counseling for a long time and he/she finally agreed.” “We disagree about disciplining the children.” Usually, their level of intimacy has declined.

More telling indicators are embedded in the relational dynamic that emerges in the consulting room. There may be unexplained tension in the room; certain topics appear to be off limits. “There may be a marked difference in the way and the degree to which each partner participates in the session.” The abusive partner may always start the session or, alternatively, always make the abused partner begin. One partner may be highly critical and judgmental, or exercise control through silence, intimidation, and manipulation. The other may speak hesitantly and haltingly—or, alternatively, may be hostile, resentful, and angry, seemingly out of proportion to the subject under discussion.

They may disagree on basic facts and have widely divergent views of the same events. Frequently, both partners are highly defensive and misconstrue what the other says, as though looking for an opportunity to act angry or hurt. They report or exhibit destructive communication patterns, such as escalation, invalidation, or a demanding/withdrawing dynamic. Impulse control may be poor. Problem-solving and conflict resolution skills are lacking.

Any of these symptoms are sufficient to raise suspicions of partner abuse. Alternatively, many abusive relationships present as typical relationships with occasional heated arguments that both parties have come to see as the necessary though undesirable price of an intimate partnership.

Assessment Protocol

When a couple comes to see me specifically because of my expertise in treating partner abuse, I typically employ a four-session protocol. I meet once with the couple, once separately with each partner, and then once more with the couple (or twice, if I need to gather further information or test hypotheses) to deliver my recommendations.

Alternatively, a couple like Mark and Julie may come to see me because they’re having difficulties and have decided to try therapy, and I might not begin to suspect partner abuse until they have seen me a few times. When I recognized the abusive dynamic in Mark and Julie’s relationship, I said to them:

“I think it would be helpful for me to set up an individual appointment with each of you so that you can share your concerns without having to worry about the other person’s reactions. I frequently do this in couples therapy, and given the volatility of today’s session, now seems like a good time.”

With an even more highly volatile couple, I might say something as innocuous as:

“During the last several sessions, I’ve had a chance to see how you interact with each other. As part of our work together, and in order to get to know you better, I’d like to schedule an individual appointment with each of you. I want to find out more about you, your childhood, family history—that sort of thing.”

I wait until the individual sessions to address the issue of confidentiality and “secrets.” With Mark and Julie, I began their separate sessions this way:

“This is a rare opportunity to get together with you, and I’m wondering if there’s anything you’d like me to know that you’re not comfortable saying with your partner in the room? If it’s something you want to tell me in confidence, I can keep it to myself. If it’s something I think would be helpful to discuss in a joint session, I’ll let you know that today, but I won’t disclose anything you don’t want me to.”

I also tell each partner that I would like to ask a series of questions about the kinds of behaviors that have occurred in their relationship. With the abusive partner, I am especially interested to learn whether similar behavior has occurred in any previous relationships, because it counters the common belief that the current partner is in some way responsible for the abuse. For this purpose, I use my own Abusive Behavior Inventory, an abridged version of which is included at the end of this article. I frequently supplement the specific questions on the inventory by inquiring about the first, last, and worst conflicts the couple has had.

Choice of Assessment Tools

To develop the Abusive Behavior Inventory, I spent one dreary weekend reflecting on all the variations of spousal abuse I had encountered during several years’ clinical experience and incorporated them with similar questionnaires employed at two agencies where I worked. I also referred to Patricia Evans’s The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize It and How to Respond (Bob Adams, Inc., 1992) and Ann Jones and Susan Schechter’s When Love Goes Wrong: What to Do When You Can’t Do Anything Right (Harper Collins, 1992). An instrument similar to mine is R. M. Tolman’s Psychological Maltreatment Inventory (see “The development of a measure of psychological maltreatment of women by their male partners,” Violence and Victims 4 (3): 159B177, 1989).

I do not employ the self-administered Conflict Tactics Scale, developed and revised by noted researchers Murray Straus, Richard Gelles, and Susan Steinmetz. Despite broad acceptance as a research tool, it has numerous shortcomings in a clinical setting. For example, it measures violence only during the preceding 12 months, even though just one violent incident from many years ago may still be casting a shadow over the relationship. It does not ask whether the violence occurred in self-defense. And it equates acts that are inherently unequal due to men’s generally greater physical size and strength and women’s generally greater level of fear that men’s anger will erupt into abuse.

Using the Abusive Behavior Inventory in the individual interview allows me to uncover whether a pattern of abusive or controlling behaviors exists. This is accomplished best in the context of a clinical interview, for two principal reasons. First, clients provide much more information—factual, psychological, and emotional—than they would with a self-administered questionnaire. Second, clients may be so disturbed by their answers that they need an opportunity to process their reactions.

Comparing their answers side by side is an exceptionally useful diagnostic tool. Couples who corroborate each other’s answers generally exhibit greater awareness of problems in their relationships and are more often motivated to do something about them.

Suspicions Confirmed

As I suspected, my individual meetings with Mark and Julie revealed a long-standing pattern of moderate partner abuse. Despite their earlier contention that their arguments “never get physical,” on several occasions Mark had prevented Julie from leaving the room during an argument by standing in the doorway. Once or twice, he had slapped her shoulder as she walked away. He had grabbed her wrist a few times, in one instance hard enough to leave a bruise. He had also thrown several television remote controls and a cell phone when angry, and he frequently punched walls and slammed doors.

Mark sometimes used what he had learned in couples therapy against Julie: for example, by couching frequent critical and demeaning comments using a distorted version of an “I” statement, or by asserting that she was projecting her father onto him. When Julie raised a sensitive subject, Mark frequently got angry, yelled in her face, declared a time-out, stomped out of the room, and never returned to the issue.

Julie reported that her self-confidence had plummeted over the past few years, and she was feeling helpless and hopeless about her marriage. She said Mark had little sympathy for the chilling effect his behavior had on her libido and often criticized her for her infrequent interest in making love.

Recommendations for Treatment

When Mark, Julie, and I came together following my individual sessions with each of them, my recommendations went something like this:

“I have some thoughts about your therapy and where we go from here. We’ve discussed the issues and difficulties you experience together. For example, neither of you feels adequately appreciated, and you both report difficulty getting the other person to recognize and meet your needs. You’re both pretty good about identifying each other’s shortcomings but not so good about identifying your own. And it’s hard for you, even with me in the room, to discuss sensitive issues without getting into a heated argument.

“I think it’s clear to all of us that the two of you need couples therapy. But I think it’s premature at this point. It’s really just a matter of timing. You’re going to be spinning your wheels until you both have a chance to address your own issues. Then you’ll be able to take advantage of what couples therapy has to offer.”

In recommending separate treatment, there is a risk that the abusive partner will accuse the abused partner of having disclosed sensitive or confidential information that led to the recommendation. To minimize that risk, I cite only the behavior I observed or heard about in meeting with the two of them together when explaining my recommendation. If the abusive partner has acknowledged any abusive behavior—and it is extremely rare for the Abusive Behavior Inventory to bring no abusive behavior to light—I will refer to that as well.

In his individual session, Mark confessed that he had grabbed Julie’s arm once and frequently got so angry that he hit things. He also expressed remorse about it and a desire to change. So I added:

“And I appreciate your forthrightness, Mark, in acknowledging that you grabbed Julie’s arm and you don’t like the way you act when you get angry. That’s definitely something I can help you with.”

In the typical abusive heterosexual relationship, I generally refer the man to a men’s group with a focus on partner abuse (one of my own groups, or a colleague’s). I refer his partner to a group for women in abusive relationships. Other options include individual therapy with a therapist who has experience treating partner abuse, and group therapy for abusive women. I generally refer men who are being abused to individual therapy, since groups for this population are rare.

It is important to be resolute about my recommendations prior to the final assessment session so that I keep to them, whether or not the couple finds them acceptable. One or both partners will sometimes attempt to mount a persuasive argument for being seen together, and occasionally one of them will insist on having therapy together or not at all. My express purpose is to send a clear and unwavering message at this stage of treatment that couples therapy is premature—just as I would regarding family therapy with a parent who currently abused the children or who was an active alcoholic.

Arguments for and against conjoint treatment in cases of partner abuse are often heated and polarized among treatment professionals, in a process that runs parallel to the typical dynamics in an abusive relationship. By training and experience, I believe in the paramount importance of holding the abusive partner (or partners) accountable for his or her actions, regardless of what the other partner says or does. In abusive relationships, couples therapy undermines this goal by communicating, either overtly or by implication, that both partners bear some responsibility for the abuse.

There are practical considerations as well. Abusive couples who leave a session with unresolved issues are more likely to erupt afterwards. (I know, because many years ago I heard them yelling outside my office or pealing out in separate cars!) Additionally, conjoint therapy is generally not productive when control issues distort the therapeutic process or when either party fears serious repercussions for speaking the truth.

When is Couples Therapy Indicated?

Before I would consider treating an abusive couple together, they would have to meet several conditions.

  1. Their answers to the Abusive Behavior Inventory match closely.
  2. Past abuse was moderate to mild; currently, abuse is extremely mild or entirely absent.
  3. The couple can adhere to a contract of no further abuse.
  4. The abused partner is safe, unafraid, and able to mobilize resources if needed.
  5. Both partners are motivated for treatment out of a sincere desire to grow and change.
  6. Both partners are willing to be accountable for their behavior, without blaming the other.
  7. The couple can use basic communication skills in a non-manipulative manner.

In short, couples therapy is appropriate when the dynamics of the relationship, not the abuse, is the proper focus of treatment.

I presented Mark and Julie with two choices. They could each seek treatment with other professionals and keep me in reserve as their couples therapist at some future date. Or I could take Mark into one of my men’s groups, refer Julie to another therapist, and help them find a new couples therapist when Julie’s therapist and I thought they were ready. Mark’s reluctance to join a group, much less one led by a different therapist, led us to conclude that the second option was preferable.

Over the next three years, Mark and Julie both participated in group therapy supplemented by short bouts of individual work. I consulted regularly with Julie’s therapist to coordinate our treatment efforts, and we met together with the two of them from time to time to coach the couple through especially difficult logjams. Once Mark had achieved more than six months of abuse-free behavior, he and Julie began working with a seasoned marriage therapist who understood the dynamics of abuse. Julie ended her group work, but Mark remained for another six months because he had discovered that being accountable to other men helped ensure his continued recovery.

Conclusion

Treating partner abuse is a specialized field. Trainings in recognizing and treating the problem are helpful, but the only way to develop real expertise is through direct experience. To that end, I recommend that you become familiar with an assessment tool like the Abusive Behavior Inventory and practice administering it to a few colleagues. As with any new tool you add to your clinical repertoire, the greater your comfort in using it, the more at ease your clients will be.

Then, the next time you suspect partner abuse, you’ll be ready to assess for it. When you do, share your findings with colleagues, a supervisor, or an expert. If you discover your suspicions are groundless, you can breathe a sigh of relief. If your suspicions are confirmed, refer the couple immediately for further assessment, if necessary, and appropriate treatment. The hazard of proving your suspicions incorrect is small compared to the danger of leaving partner abuse undiagnosed and untreated.

In many ways, Mark and Julie experienced an ideal outcome. Their commitment to each other and to the process of change allowed them to leave their abusive dynamic behind. Mark was able to give up his sense of entitlement and develop greater empathy for Julie. Although some emotional scars remained, the damage was not so severe that Julie was unable to reclaim the genuine affection she had once felt for Mark.

But they were lucky: without any of these factors, a divorce was likely. And without appropriate intervention, the probable outcome would have been an uninterrupted, escalating pattern of abusive behavior, accompanied by additional years of unnecessary pain and suffering and the possible transmission of abuse to the next generation.

A Few Simple Questions

"I am going to ask you a few simple questions. Do not be concerned. Just try to answer them to the best of your ability.

First of all, could you tell me the name of this place where you are now?"

I responded that the places
where a person was,
were mere constructs
of coincidence and arbitrary
designation,
and that where I was now
was safely ensconced within my own
head,
where I was expected to remain,
observantly,
as all the other places in the
world
faded away
during my silently whispered
departure for a
non-place.

"Could you tell me what day of the week it is, and the date today?

The days of the week have been voided
for those who have retired,
and months only count for those
who pay bills and receive
checks
——or watch the lunar
progression.
As for the year,
we recall only our first birthday,
and we anticipate that date which
will be chiseled into the stone
commemorating our last.
The rest only count for those foolish enough
to still play the game
of caring.

"Could you tell me my name, please?"

I could not have told you your name
at a time when it still made
a difference to me.

Now it not only makes no difference,
but it is clearer
that the process of naming only
serves to obscure
the essence of
personhood,
which I am more aware of
as labels
and their declensions
drop away
from all that matters.

"Now I am going to tell you some proverbs, and ask you to say what they mean to you. O.K.?"

"A rolling stone gathers no moss."

In fact, all stones gather moss.
For it is
that all objects which roll
encounter resistance
which some call friction,
and friction depletes momentum,
eventually causing them to come
to rest———
and to gather moss,
which is the life and universal
anodyne
which softens and obscures
the oblivion
ultimately embracing
us all.

"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. What does that mean to you?"

A bird in the hand
is never the equal
of two in the bush,
for Platonic ideals exist beyond
our external vision,
flying freely through the rarified
ether
of imagination
into the creative skies
of our psyches,
and even into the mysterious
storms beyond the
edges
of our power.

"People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

This is a strange and paradoxical
notion.
For those who are courageous
and confident enough
to permit themselves transparency
before the hostile
universe,
should also be vigorous
and bold enough
to engage it in worthy combat,
and to defend the beauty
of transparency,
and that which lies within the
open gates
of candor and
revelation.

(into a dictating machine) "Orientation as to time, place and person are severely impaired. Abstracting ability is non-existent. In its place we find intellectualization, digression, and idiosyncratic, personalistic, rambling misinterpretations verging on delusion. There is grandiosity as well as evidence of melancholia."

(soliliquoy)
All in all,
the questions were simplistic,
and the questioner was moralistic,
opinionated,
culture-bound to the most
prosaic formulas,
possessed limited imagination,
was quite presumptuous,
and fairly boring.
He asked the same set of questions
for days on end,
perseverating to a degree which
suggested neuronal vacuities,
and I had the impression that he felt
some power
over me,
causing me to wonder if he has
the same delusive debility
which afflicts most people's
relationship with the universe