After the Diagnosis: Helping Patients Cope With their Emotions

The New Normal

“I just got diagnosed. Now what do I do?”

The focus of my professional work is on helping patients to cope with medical diagnosis, so I hear this question a lot. But many psychotherapists tell me that their patients also talk to them about their health issues, including sudden, serious medical diagnoses.

As mental health professionals, we may provide the only opportunity that newly-diagnosed patients have to talk to someone in this situation. The traditional medical establishment is equipped to help patients from a medical, but not an emotional, perspective. Family members and friends are also suddenly thrust into the emotional chaos surrounding the diagnosis, and often need help with their own emotions and helplessness.

Our patients facing a medical diagnosis look to us for help in sorting out complicated and scary feelings during a highly stressful time so that that they can move forward in their lives. In this regard, our job is to help patients define and embrace a “new normal” —with a positive self-image, retention of as many cherished routines and rituals as possible and supportive relationships—but also help them to integrate the effects of treatment and make ongoing lifestyle adjustments. Patients facing a diagnosis want nothing more than to be as normal as possible.

If newly-diagnosed patients are able to get needed emotional support early on in their diagnosis, they will be that much better prepared to cope as they move forward with their treatment. As therapists, we help them to prepare for the road ahead.

Medical Diagnosis=Stress

Receiving a catastrophic medical diagnosis is a stressful and sometimes traumatic event. Newly-diagnosed patients feel an immediate sense of uncertainty—life will never be quite the same. And life may end. And like other stressful events, our minds and bodies are hardwired by nature to react. The initial reaction is shock, as our conscious minds essentially shut down while, subconsciously, this information is processed.

As the shock fades, it gives way to one of three reactions that occur in response to stress: flight, freeze, and fight. The flight response is primarily an emotional reaction, and patients may be so caught up in their emotions that they may not be able to make objective decisions regarding their condition and its treatment. On the other hand, those having a freeze response may be unable to acknowledge their feelings at all or may have a fatalistic view, either of which may result in inaction. Those in fight response are best equipped to deal with a new diagnosis. They have access to their emotions as well as their logical resources, and are able to harness both as they face their illness. Most important, patients can be taught how to be Fighters.

These basic reactions impact the kinds of emotions that newly-diagnosed patients experience, and how they cope with these emotions, as well as how they deal with their diagnosis from a rational standpoint (e.g. information-gathering). For better or worse, how patients cope during those first few days and weeks after receiving the diagnosis will have implications throughout their treatment process—from decision-making to coping with the treatment to ongoing recovery and life management. And if those patients find their way to the office of a mental health professional, we can play a formative role in their journey.

The First Reaction

Whether catastrophic or chronic, almost invariably patients describe their reaction with one word: shock. People often experience numbness, as if they are in a trance, or simply have “no feeling at all.” The experience of shock is often associated with disbelief or a sense that their emotions might be so strong that they should be held at bay for fear that they might be overwhelming. There are of course exceptions. For example, when a condition from the past is recurring, or when symptoms over time have rendered the diagnosis inevitable, patients may report an initial feeling that “the other shoe has finally dropped” or that they are about to go down a road that that they have previously been on. Still, it is only human nature to cling to that possibility that “it won’t happen to me.” This belief is mainly unconscious; after all, most of us don’t spend our time assessing our chances of getting hit by a medical diagnosis.

Carole described her reaction when she was first diagnosed with cancer.

"It was like the world suddenly stood still. I mean, all I could hear was my own breathing, and the thumping of my heartbeat. At first, I was completely numb, and I wasn’t thinking anything. And then I started saying the word “cancer” over and over. Still, no feelings. But deep inside, I realized that, no matter what, my life was never going to be the same."

The initial shock may last a moment, hours, days, or may continue on, as the patient’s emotional and rational sides are both struggling with the news. If you have been through the experience of a diagnosis, you might remember how you first reacted, or didn’t react, to the news; or maybe you have seen someone else go through it and felt your own helplessness as you watched them struggle.

In a way, being faced with a diagnosis, while not usually a death sentence, is similar to hearing about a death. As Carole, in the example above, described her diagnosis—nothing will ever be quite the same. Newly-diagnosed patients are left with the knowledge that, yes, bad things can happen, that they really aren’t invincible after all. And the diagnosis —whether it requires extensive treatment that interrupts normal life for months or longer, or whether it requires medication and alterations in diet and lifestyle—will at some point require the patient’s acknowledgement and full attention. Knowing that this looms ahead can also be initially overwhelming for the patient, and the healthcare professionals they are working with may or may not be able to provide emotional support for their patients.

During this time of initial shock, patients are often not open to more information, nor willing to discuss their diagnosis and what it means. It is difficult to communicate with patients who may be unable to hear or comprehend what they are being told, which presents a particular challenge to their healthcare providers who may need to begin a medication regimen and/or make a decision about the path of treatment. The newly-diagnosed patient may need some time and space to sit with the news, and if the healthcare professional pushes them too hard to discuss the treatment plan or to make a treatment decision during this time, the patient may become defensive and refuse to talk further, potentially becoming even more resistant.

Patience is required. Human beings can’t be forced to take in more information than they can process at any given moment moment, and often the best way to help patience move through this early stage is to be willing to sit with them, offering support while being sensitive to the readiness of the patient to process this news. Psychotherapy can provide vital support during this time, a chance to vent about the frustrations and the fears.

Clearly, sensitivity to how a patient is responding must be balanced with the level of urgency in taking any necessary action. For example, it may be appropriate for the therapist to act as a patient advocate by encouraging the patient to schedule a follow-up appointment with their healthcare provider to further discuss the diagnosis and formulate his/her questions. And even to help the patient formulate a list of questions to ask their healthcare provider. Scheduling a follow-up session with the patient to discuss and process what they learned in this second appointment can also be invaluable.

The Three Fs

Accepting that life is going to change is the first step toward coping with the emotional impact of the diagnosis and making decisions. Though newly diagnosed patients come to this realization differently and at different times, most patients fall within one of the fight/flight/freeze responses.
 

Fight Freeze Flight
Positive Thinking Isolation Empowerment
Rigidity Helplessness Emotional Coping Skills
    Rational Thinking

Flight: The Case of Dave

The best way to introduce the Flight response is through a case example of a newly-diagnosed patient I’ll call Dave. An active man without a history of health problems, his diagnosis of a heart condition took him totally by surprise. His physician presented him with what she thought was the best recommendation, which was a triple bypass, and then suggested that Dave go home and do some thinking before making a decision.

Dave later reported that the sense of shock continued not only that evening, but for a couple of days afterward. He couldn’t believe that he, of all people, was being told that he was in anything but top condition. And his heart? Not a chance. He told his wife only that his doctor was watching his heart, but that he was absolutely fine, which of course she was skeptical of but knew better than to push if Dave wasn’t ready to talk. Dave describes the next few days like this:

"”Once the numbness started to wear off, I kind of went into a panic mode. It was like I had this thing around my heart and I wanted it cut out as soon as possible.” I was afraid to think because I was afraid I might talk myself into doing nothing, or that I might put too much strain on my heart. I imagined my doctor as my savior. I wanted to put all of my faith and trust in her and have her direct my path. I was in such a rush, I asked her to call the cardiologist she had recommended to try and influence him to schedule me for surgery as soon as possible"

While Dave is placing all of his trust in the first physician he encounters, he is also running toward the treatment that feels most expedient. He is not considering the implications of the treatment, in terms of side effects, recovery, and ongoing lifestyle management. As a result, he may later discover that this is not a treatment that he was prepared to deal with, which has implications for ongoing compliance as well as dissatisfaction with his healthcare provider.

The flight reaction has other implications as well. Individuals in this state may—out of a sense of panic—run toward unproven alternative treatments with potentially alarming results. They may also be susceptible to the recommendations of healthcare providers with whom they feel comfortable with emotionally but who may not offer the best treatment option. For example, they may profess to “love” their practitioners, which can preclude them from obtaining a second opinion on the diagnosis, investigating treatment options, and at least checking into the credentials and track record of their physician. Patients in Flight reaction may also attach themselves to an unproven, non-medical treatment with potentially alarming consequences.

The flight reaction can also result in such strong emotions that patients are unable to access their logical mind. Excessive crying, expressions of anger, giving in to fearfulness—these responses signify that a patient is also in flight of a different sort—not toward the first available treatment or the most loved practitioner, but instead running away from their diagnosis.

Freeze: The Case of John

Not all patients “take flight” toward the first available treatment. Some don’t take flight at all. Instead, the initial shock gives way to sitting and staring into space, waiting for the nightmare to pass, or for someone, often a family member, to step in and take charge. This is understandable. After all, between the shock of the diagnosis, and their perception that they are unprepared to make the decisions that are suddenly thrust upon them, or that they have no hope, they are essentially immobilized.

When in freeze reaction, emotions appear to stop working, not because they are broken but because they are being tightly held in place. And while this might be an opportunity for the rational side to kick in and take charge of the situation, logic without emotion is not necessarily going to result in rational thinking, as evidenced by John.

"I just sat there when the doctor told me, and I guess I’m still just sitting still. I can hardly get out of the chair, to tell you the truth. I kind of decided to be philosophical about it. I don’t know much about this but I do know that statistically, the numbers are against me. I mean, what can I do when fate isn’t on my side"

John is using the defense that individuals in freeze reaction often adopt: refusing to react emotionally. Not getting actively involved in learning about the condition and its treatment. Unfortunately, this also means giving up.

Essentially, the freeze reaction is an extension of the original feeling of shock, but with some key differences. Shock is the mind’s way of shutting down the emotions, and allowing the brain to process the information, before reaction. Patients in freeze reaction aren’t consciously suppressing their emotions, but their emotions are nonetheless inaccessible to them. They may think they are being “rational” based on their view of the facts, but there are risks involved when the logical mind is operating without the emotions.

Patients in freeze reaction, because they are operating without their emotional side, may adopt an attitude of hopelessness and helplessness. By not allowing themselves to work through the initial emotions, like anger and fear, they essentially remain stuck. Often they refuse to discuss their condition any more than absolutely necessary with their healthcare professionals, and may avoid telling family members as long as possible. Whereas patients in flight reaction may completely give themselves over to their emotions at the expense of rational thinking, patients in freeze don’t acknowledge their emotions, which leads inevitably to avoidance isolation.

One characteristic common among patients in freeze reaction is an unwillingness to make decisions about their treatment. They rely on their physicians, possibly working with family members, to make these decisions for them. In essence, they decide not to decide.

Fight: The Case of Marie

Being open to emotions can result in an inner sense of optimism and hope. If this optimism is balanced with rational thinking, patients are in the best position to make treatment decisions, deal effectively with treatment and lifestyle changes, and otherwise cope with the changes and challenges that may arise as they face the future. These are the fighters.

Fight doesn’t necessarily imply aggression and, in fact, sometimes patients resist this word because of that association. “Being a fighter means being empowered in terms of understanding the diagnosis, the options for treatment, and what lifestyle adjustments need to be made in the near future and beyond.” Being empowered is about arming oneself with emotional coping skills as well as rational thinking.

Fighters acknowledge the feelings that arise as a result of hearing the diagnosis and continue to honor their own emotions. It would even be reasonable to say that dealing with the emotional aspects of a diagnosis opens the door to rational decision making. Fear may, realistically, never fade away. The anger and disappointment may flare up at times. But emotions like fear and anger, when they are acknowledged and experienced, may also give way to hope, optimism, and a renewed passion for life.

Marie said it this way:

"I sat and cried and asked 'why me?' for quite awhile, maybe a few days. And then I stood up and said, 'I am going to fight this beast. I’m not going to let it beat me down.' The next day I made a list of who I needed to talk to, where I needed to go for information, and what I needed to start planning for. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel overwhelmed sometimes, because I still do. But I’m also in active mode."

Marie didn’t hold back on her emotions but, instead, faced her disappointment and fear. She sat alone with her emotions and, in her case, had a good cry. She also discussed her emotional reactions with a member of the healthcare team, who was comfortable being a “listening ear.” Had she not taken the time to experience how she was feeling, she would have been forced to sit with a large block of emotion, and it would have essentially taken all of her mental energy to hold it down. By doing so, she was able to start asking questions and making decisions.

Patients in fight reaction are more prepared to take action with their condition. By working through their emotional reactions—feeling their feelings and expressing them to supportive listeners—they are not running from their feelings, nor are they so overwhelmed by them that they can’t think. The result is a sense of self-confidence that comes from being aware of, and open to, emotions. Fighters also have access to their rational minds. This doesn’t mean that they are in perfect balance every day, or that they don’t have bad days when nothing seems to go right, but they are on the whole able to search for, and process, information. They are more likely to ask questions and to evaluate alternatives. They take more control over their treatment decisions and the ongoing lifestyle adjustments that they need to make.

Their balance of emotions and logic results in an attitude of empowerment toward their healthcare and the individuals who deliver it. For some patients, the fight attitude comes naturally; they may be more temperamentally inclined towards this kind of response to adversity once they move beyond the initial shock. These individuals will sometimes present challenges to their healthcare team, because they tend to be much more active in their own treatment, and believe that the ultimate decisions regarding sources of information, treatment alternatives, and lifestyle adjustments, lies in their own hands. However, the healthcare team can work with patients experiencing freeze and flight reactions to create and enhance fighter skills.

Psychotherapy: Bridging the Gap That Healthcare Professionals Can’t Fill

Healthcare professionals are not expected to be psychotherapists or counselors, nor to deliver direct mental health services to their patients. On the contrary, attempting to counsel patients without the benefit of being a trained mental health professional can be harmful to the patient and risky for the untrained professional. But newly diagnosed patients often have a hard time processing the overwhelming information they are bombarded with by their healthcare providers, and this is where psychotherapy can play a vital role.

Often patients are so flooded with emotion when they first receive their diagnosis that they aren’t really listening to what they are being told; they might “hear” it, but not be able to make sense of it and, as a result, they may miss key pieces of information or misinterpret what they’ve heard. This can be frustrating and alarming for the healthcare professional, who may or may not have the patience or skill to help their patients through this initial phase. Psychotherapy can help the patient to cope with the fear and anxiety that may be preventing them from processing information about their diagnosis and their treatment options, and to evaluate the options from both rational and emotional perspectives.

This can also be a good time to involve family members in the therapy. They often need support as well in processing and understanding the diagnosis, figuring out how best to support the patient, and deciphering what their role will be throughout the treatment process. Both patients and their families and close friends may not yet have the words they need to discuss their feelings and reactions with each other, and therapists can play an important role in helping to facilitate communication between patients and their loved ones.

Newly-Diagnosed Patients in Psychotherapy

A new medical diagnosis brings with it the probability of change—in routine, in relationships, in self-image—and human beings are creatures of habit, not wired to embrace change. Uncertainty about the future and what challenges might soon be presented, fears about loss, including finances, relationships, favorite activities and one’s future dreams are all a part of what the newly diagnosed patient brings to therapy.

Some of the factors that influence the way an individual reacts to a medical diagnosis include:

  • Perceptions of the severity of the diagnosis—Patients often have minimal information about their condition when they first receive their diagnosis, or erroneous information, or a vague awareness of the condition but not enough of the facts to evaluate it in terms of the implications for their own lives. These perceptions —and misperceptions —may lead to an emotional reaction that is not consistent with reality. Alternatively, patients may be well versed in their condition and experience emotions that are realistic and consistent with its severity. Either way, perceptions have a direct influence on emotions.
  • Personal coping style—Some people grow up in families in which emotions are always on the surface, and family members are encouraged to express how they are feeling. In other families, emotions are not so acceptable, and are suppressed. Newly-diagnosed patients who don’t have a history of being comfortable with their own feelings will most likely have difficulty talking about, or expressing, how they feel.
  • Prior experience of illness—Newly-diagnosed patients who have had a past illness may experience some of the same feelings that they experienced in the past. Having already dealt with a medical diagnosis may have provided them with coping skills to deal with a new diagnosis; alternatively, the diagnosis can reignite fears and other feelings that they had hoped not to re-experience. Patients who have helped a friend or family member cope with a medical condition may react similarly.

The Unanswerable Question

Newly-diagnosed patients inevitably ask one question: “Why me?” This may be a medical question, as the patient tries to understand the medical reasons behind the diagnosis, though there is usually an undercurrent of self-punishment—“If only I’d eaten better” or “if only I didn’t smoke” this would never have happened. People may also feel guilty about asking this question, as it can seem to suggest that it would be more fair and right if it happened to someone else. And patients may also express acceptance, but nevertheless ponder the randomness of life.

The point for therapists is not to answer this question. For many patients, “Why me?” opens the floodgate to releasing their own emotions, because it is a way of articulating that basic question of fairness and the role of fate, core issues that patients grapple with as they begin to process their diagnosis and move toward acceptance and empowerment. Ultimately, “Why me? is an existential question, and as therapists, we can use it to delve more deeply into the meaning of life for our clients and, if appropriate, work with them to cultivate a deeper connection to their religious or spiritual communities and practices.

Facing Difficult Emotions

When I first met with a patient I’ll call Yolanda, who had been diagnosed with cancer, she said:

“All I could think about was how concerned my doctor was when she told me I had cancer. I had never seen this look on her face before, and I just kept thinking that if she was this concerned, I must be in big trouble. I felt like I was on the edge of a cliff and I needed to hang on to something but there was nothing to hang on to. And at any second I might go falling into the darkness.”

During the course of our counseling sessions together, I was able to help Yolanda identify the emotions that she was experiencing, especially those that she thought she “shouldn’t” be feeling (I always begin by kicking the positive-thinking police out of the room). I also supported her as she began to deal with her diagnosis on a day-to-day basis, including giving the news to her family, making the treatment decision, undergoing surgery and chemotherapy, and making lifestyle changes. Helping Yolanda recognize, accept, and cope with the emotions around her illness allowed her to move into an empowered fighter position.

Yolanda gave voice to her greatest fears about cancer. As we worked through the “why me?” question, I told her about similar experiences by other patients facing cancer to help normalize her reaction. It’s important for people to remember that they are not alone and that many have walked the path before them. I also encouraged her to arm herself with real facts by asking questions of her treatment team and information-gathering on her own, and at her own pace. Information is an antidote to fear.

As Yolanda faced her fears about her cancer diagnosis, I encouraged her to express other emotions as they arose. Allowing herself to be angry was an important step for her, as she was able to express her frustration at having to take a break from her active life to go through treatment. As she stated, “I want to scream at life and how unfair everything is!” During a later session, as she was beginning cancer treatment, she talked about attending a wellness lecture and leaving feeling ashamed that she “might have avoided this if I had taken better care of myself.” And during chemotherapy, she expressed sadness that she wasn’t able to “be the mother that my kids need me to be.” Yolanda needed the opportunity to express these emotions in a safe, non-judgmental environment so that she could continue to cope with her day-to-day life and responsibilities.

Challenging Harmful Beliefs

As patients react to the stress of their diagnosis, their fundamental beliefs about life are put to the test, many of which, from a Rational Emotive Behavior (REBT) perspective, may be irrational and therefore lead to reactions and emotions that are unproductive and self-destructive. I was able to gently help Yolanda to identify beliefs that resulted in, as she said, “beating up on myself” and “telling myself that I shouldn’t feel the way that I do.” Irrational beliefs common to newly-diagnosed patients include:

  • My life will not change unless I want it to.
  • I must be available to the people who need me at all times.
  • If I live a good life, bad things won’t happen to me.
  • If I don’t keep a positive attitude, other people will think I am a failure.
  • If I don’t maintain control of my emotions I will collapse.

“I can’t emphasize enough the importance of first and foremost being a supportive, listening ear in the true sense of Carl Rogers—non-judgmental, unconditional positive regard.” This is what patients need most when they first get diagnosed. Motivational interviewing techniques can also be helpful in assessing readiness and introducing alternative ways of coping.

As Yolanda was ready for me to move from the role of supporting and normalizing her emotional reactions to examining her beliefs and understanding the connection with her emotions, I used a more active approach to help her identify her triggers, reframe her irrational beliefs, challenge either/or thinking, recognize and replace negative self-talk with health-enhancing affirmations and use progressive relaxation techniques.

A Note About Grief

Newly-diagnosed patients often go through a grieving process, and this can be an essential step in coming to terms with their condition and moving forward with treatment and lifestyle adjustments. When they grieve, they are beginning the process of accepting that a change is occurring in their life. Regardless of the diagnosis, accepting that life is going to be different in some way, and that these changes are out of their hands, is an important step forward. For many newly-diagnosed patients, their diagnosis causes them to take a look at one or more of their basic beliefs about life and to reevaluate them. This may be the first time that they have looked at these beliefs and how they affect their actions and emotional reactions. During this process, assessing a patient’s spiritually, and encouraging them to seek spiritual guidance in whatever way is meaningful to them can be helpful in getting through the grieving process.

Sensitivity to the Influence of Culture and Gender

It is also important for healthcare professionals to be aware of the influence of culture and gender. Cultural background can influence how patients interact with the medical establishment, how they experience and express emotions, and their willingness to accept mental health intervention. Gender can present further complications in expressing emotions around illness as well as in getting informed. In Western culture, women tend traditionally to be more active medical consumers than are men.

Working with the Healthcare Team

The healthcare professionals that are working with newly-diagnosed patients can greatly benefit from the ability to understand and recognize how patients are reacting to their diagnosis, and psychotherapists can play an important role in consulting with them. Understanding whether a patient is having a flight, freeze, or fight response, for example, will guide healthcare professionals in gauging their readiness to receive information, so that it is presented in a manner in which patients will most likely be receptive. Those in flight reaction may need some additional emotional support while those in freeze reaction may need some coaching in interpreting what they read and hear with a sense of optimism. Fighters may ask a lot of questions for which the team needs to be prepared. And going forward with treatment and recovery, patients who don’t become fighters may continuously erect barriers to compliance and life management.

I often work directly with physicians and, depending on the wishes and permission of the patient, will contact the healthcare team to share information and, as needed, to advocate for my patient. Where possible, maintaining open communications with healthcare providers, and offering to support them during especially difficult times during and after treatment, can be invaluable to the patient. Many healthcare providers also recognize the emotional component as key to enhancing recovery and ongoing compliance and are happy for the support.

Offering the healthcare team an understanding the patient’s particular reaction style can help them tailor their approach in ways that leverage the patient’s strengths. We can specifically give the team advice about how best to:

  • Present information on the condition and its treatment
  • Coach patients through the treatment process
  • Make recommendations on lifestyle management
  • Encourage patients to seek support with activities of daily living
  • Monitor ongoing compliance

Preparing for the Road Ahead

Finally, I always tell my clients: You are not a diagnosis. Your diagnosis is only part of who you are. Remind yourself every day that you are a fascinating, multi-dimensional creature with a past, a present, and a future that belongs to you and to you alone. Embrace life and your potential to live your life, with all of its triumphs, set-backs, surprises, and detours. Now, let’s get prepared for the road ahead!

Howard Kassinove on Anger Management

“I can see your bald head”

Christian Conte: Dr. Howard Kassinove, how did anger management became a central focus for you?
Howard Kassinove: When I went to graduate school, the central focus seemed to be anxiety, and the physiological or biophysical aspects of emotion. So we studied heart rate, sweating, pupillary response to light—but all with regard to anxiety. I then went out to study with Joseph Wolpe and of course his major area was anxiety. But he really put me in touch with this notion of approach versus avoidance behaviors—moving towards, moving against, or moving away from. I was also trained by Albert Ellis and he was very interested in emotionality in general.
But with that background, once I went into private practice what I discovered was that lots of my patients were angry at each other. Husbands angry at wives, parents angry at children, adolescents angry at their parents, and I had been ill trained. I really didn’t know much about it, because anxiety was the major focus of my training. So I began to study and read and my practice moved along. But then in about 1992, I really decided I had to get some kind of a handle on this. So with my then Ph.D. graduate student Christopher Eckhardt, now a professor at Purdue, he and I just started cold calling people in the field of anger: Charlie Spielberger, Jerry Deffenbacher and a range of figures. We put together an edited book, which included all aspects of anger from Spielberger’s measurement to Sergei Tsytsarev and Junko Tanaka-Matsumi’s cross-cultural perspective, and this was the beginning of me becoming centrally involved.
Then I started doing more cross-cultural research—in India, Russia, Romania and many other countries. We collected data on anger in all these other countries and I did a number of doctoral dissertations on anger. One of the most important was with my colleague Chip Tafrate, who of course is doing books with me and did the video released this month by psychotherapy.net. He did a very interesting study in which we would try to insult people—“I can see your bald head!”—and Chip would ask people to respond in different ways. One was, “How could you say that to me? That’s terrible. I can’t stand it!” And the other was, “It’s unpleasant that you’re saying that. I wish you weren’t saying it, but I can tolerate it.”
CC: The old Albert Ellis stuff.
HK: Albert Ellis, exactly. We even had a controlled condition where I would kind of insult you like that, and you would say things like, “A stitch in time saves nine.” What we found was that both the Ellis rational ideas and the distracting statements led to anger reduction.
CC: So for you it centers on cognitive behavioral techniques—on changing the thoughts around and having people learn different forms of self-talk.
HK: Yes, but my original training was at Adelphi University, which is a very psychodynamic place. One of my great heroes always was Karen Horney, because she spoke about the tyranny of the shoulds well before Ellis did. She spoke about moving against, moving away from, and moving towards people. So I also have that background.

What Exactly is Anger Management?

CC: Obviously anger has been around as long as there were human beings, but in the news over the last several years it seems like anger management in particular is getting more attention than it has in the past. From your perspective, what exactly constitutes anger management?
HK: Let’s go back to the beginning of modern anger management—Ray Novaco’s 1975 book, Anger Control. Prior to that we were not really dealing much with anger management. Ray came on the scene and became a major figure, but the word “control” has kind of disappeared and now we talk about “anger management.”
I think of it as developing less intense disruptive responses to aversive stimuli. The fact is that we live in a world where there are lots of aversive stimuli:
People take our parking spots, students tell us we’re lousy teachers, our wives and husbands tell us that we didn’t mow the lawn correctly. We are kind of bombarded with this aversive stimulation environment. Lots of good things occur in the environment, of course, but the bombardment with the aversive stuff leads us either to be angry—”How dare you say that to me?! You know you don’t have any right! You should treat me with more respect!”—and it can also lead to anxiety, when we’re being threatened by someone in authority or someone with a knife or gun.
CC: Sure.
HK: So I think that anger management in a broader sense is emotion management or emotion regulation. I try to live my life in the most mellow way possible. Most of the time these days I succeed. But it’s not only anger or annoyance I want to bring under control; I also want to bring anxiety under control. This is where Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) has played such a central focus in my own life. Lots of abrasive events occur in life that are overwhelmingly unpleasant. These days I try and leave them there—whether it’s difficulties with my own children or difficulties with my students or my car or whatever. So in the broader sense, it’s emotion management.
CC: That’s exactly the word I use: emotional management. You’ve developed what you call the “anger episode model.” Can you talk a little bit about the evolution of that?
HK: As the years were going by, I found myself becoming kind of disgusted with the notion that kids are lazy, people are stupid—this kind of broad overarching condemnation of people. Instead, because I became more and more of a behaviorist as time went along, I wanted to speak about how people behave in particular situations. You might become angry at your wife, let’s say, when she does something wrong, and you might yell at her and maybe even demean her verbally in some way. But I bet you wouldn’t do that if you were at a state dinner with President Obama, because in that environment you’re going to behave very differently.
So I found myself moving away from the notion of “he’s an angry person,” “she’s such an angry woman,” to the idea of—how can we deal with individual situations? We started to develop the notion that people have “anger episodes” and that led to the anger episode model. The more episodes we can help them bring under control, the more likely it is they will become more generally controlled.
It’s kind of like an incremental model. I don’t think we can really change broad-spectrum personality. If I define personality as the cross-situational stability of behavior, then what I’m trying to do is change behaviors in a number of situations with the hope that eventually through generalization people become less angry.
CC: That’s fantastic.
HK: We needed a very specific and relatively simple model that we could teach to our patients.

Triggers

CC: I really identify with what you’re saying. You put people in different situations, they respond in different ways. I say to people all the time, “If I gave you a million dollars, would you respond in the same way?” They say, “Well, I don’t know if I’d be that angry if somebody cut me off in traffic if I knew I was getting a million dollars.” So we really get at the heart of those thoughts.
You talk about triggers, and I wondered does it always, from your perspective, take an outside trigger to set someone off into an anger episode?
HK: I wouldn’t necessarily say it takes an outside trigger. Something has to initiate the sequence, but it can be an inside trigger. It can be a memory of what you did to me yesterday, how you treated me as a colleague or as a student or as a professor yesterday. I remember when you gave me the mid-term examination and you were unfair then. I’m quite sure you’re going to be unfair now. That’s an inside memory. But most of the time, I still see anger as a social, interpersonal process.
Most of the time, I’m going to become angry at a person or a group of people because of something that I perceive they did wrong. Let’s face it—I’m looking around in your office right now; I bet you don’t get angry at your bookcase.
You don’t get angry at your doorknob. You don’t get angry at your carpet. But you might get angry at your wife or your children or something like that. It’s always the social, interpersonal process. But it could be what the kids are doing today, or it could be you’re lying in bed and remembering what they did yesterday.
CC: That’s so powerful. I’ve specialized in working with people convicted of violent crimes and people are always really fascinated by the intense experiences I’ve had. I wonder if you could recall for us memorable and intense situation you encountered throughout your years in anger management.
HK: That’s an interesting question. I run an anger management program at Hofstra, and it’s housed in a generic building that has little children who are learning how to read, people who are having marital problems, and kids who are there all day as part of a child care center. So we’re always worried—is there going to be an intense anger problem? I’m always worried about my students, who are upstairs behind closed doors with anger patients, many of whom come from the probation department, and they’ve been convicted of anything from pushing and shoving to murder. They have histories. I’m always concerned. But I have to tell you that in the last nine years, we have had zero intense anger problems.
CC: Many new therapists are intimidated whenever it comes to working with angry patients. They’re scared of dealing with angry people, so I have my own approach to orienting them to the work. What’s something that you teach new therapists to do if they find themselves intimidated by the anger of their clients?
HK: Well, look at how I approached you, Christian, before we started this interview. I even made fun of your bald head.
CC: Yes, you did.
HK: Right? This is really important. The interpersonal therapeutic relationship, for me, is critical. You have to know how to not make every interaction into the most serious problem in the world. Most people, I find, are willing to kid around with me. They’re willing to take my barbs, my probes, my jabs, and that’s really what I say to students. Let your clients know that you’re in their corner. You know, “I understand you have been sent by your wife, sent by your husband, sent by the judge, from the probation department, and I’m going to be as respectful of you as I can, but I’m also going to jab you a little bit.” Then I ask, “Christian, would it be okay if I jabbed you a little bit? Can we play together like that?”
I think the only way people really get better is if we engage in reinforced practice in the office. So if I’m going to consider you as my patient for a moment, I might say things like, “Well, Christian, we’ve learned a bit about your life. You’re married and you have two children, and I know that you’re having troubles with your wife, who sometimes calls you lazy. Would it be okay if I called you lazy?”

The Comeback

HK: I’d talk to you a bit about that, and then I’d say, “Well let’s start off with some deep muscle relaxation.” I would make sure that you and I are on the same page, but then I would think about some kind of a hierarchy of insults. I’d start off with, “Well, Christian, take a deep breath. Just let your body relax. Consider what a nice day it is. I can see the sunshine behind you there. It’s really a nice day. Are you ready?”
CC: Yes.
HK: Here it comes. “You know, Christian, you seem very immature today. Take a deep breath in, and out.” So that was very mild.
CC: Very, yes.
HK: As the weeks go along, it’s going to escalate to, “Christian, you’re damned immature. Do you know that?” Then I’m going to go up to, “Christian, what the hell is wrong with you? How could a man of your age be so goddamned immature?”
CC: That’s awesome.
HK: And we’ll do two things. One, I’m going teach you to engage in those cognitive coping responses. So for example, say it to me.
CC: All right. Howard, you seem awfully immature.
HK: I understand what you’re saying. Thanks for sharing it with me.
CC: So you’re kind of putting me off there. That’s a sure sign of immaturity. You seem really immature.
HK: You have a real firm impression. It’s unpleasant to hear it, but I do want to thank you for sharing with me. It shows we have an honest relationship. Thank you.
CC: That’s great. That was a good comeback.
HK: What I’m trying to do is teach the patient a way of responding that, first of all, does not inflame, because—actually come at me again.
CC: Howard, you seem awfully immature.
HK: What about you? I mean, look at that shirt that you’re wearing. It’s like something I would wear around the supermarket or something, and here we are being interviewed! There’s that come back. Or, I could teach you another comeback—try it again.
CC: Boy, Howard, you really are immature.
HK: Yes, Christian. I bought a new hard drive for my computer yesterday.
You don’t know what to do with that, right?
CC: No, that totally threw me off.
HK: In my therapy, I try to, first of all, focus in on in your particular family or life, what are the adverse verbalizations that you might be receiving? That’s what I want to hone in on. I try to teach you either to relax deeply and not respond, to say something that’s really totally silly like, “I got a new hard drive,” to thank you for being honest, to say, “It’s unpleasant. I don’t like to hear it, but I can tolerate it.” So I’m teaching a variety of responses, you know?
CC: That’s great. It’s fantastic. I love the immediacy of the role-play right there in the moment.
HK: It works pretty well. Not all the time, obviously. I’m so interested about your work in the criminal justice system. Some of those people are kind of tough cookies.
CC: Yeah. Some of them are tough to crack, but overall, even though we’ve never met before this interview, there are so many things that you’re saying that I’m putting into practice. It’s so fun to be even in a role-play on the other end of that for even just a moment. It’s just great.
Tell me about your co-author. How did you get involved with Raymond Chip Tafrate?
HK: That’s kind of a funny story. Chip was originally my PhD student, and he was just going to become a practitioner and open up a mental health center. But then when he and I did this dissertation together on anger, we started to form this close bond. He went on to become a professor in a criminology and criminal justice department in Connecticut. We just bonded. He’s a wonderful man. If there is one thing I’ve learned—I’m sure you’ve been a professor also—there are just lots of things I don’t think about. We are both experts in the field, but you and I can really learn from each other.
And I thought I could learn from Chip. He’s thoughtful. He’s grounded. He comes out of a literature base now in criminology, that’s a little bit different from mine. Even though I taught him originally about REBT or relaxation training, he also studied with Ellis and he taught me about motivational interviewing. He really turned me on to that. So it’s just been a synergistic relationship.
CC: Well the book you wrote together, Anger Management: The Complete Treatment Guidebook for Practitioners, is extremely well done.
What’s something that you know now that you wish you could go back and tell yourself as a new therapist?
HK: I think I’d tell myself to be happy with small gains. If I can just teach that person not to rebel when the boss says, “I’d like you to stay an extra two hours tonight,” and not to flip off the boss, I’m happy with that these days.
CC: I think that’s so deep for people to get and really understand. Those little things, when people have been thinking one way their entire lives and all of a sudden now they can go that extra two hours and look at it differently, I think that’s big. I think learning to appreciate that is really big.
HK: I’m kind of unhappy when I go to some of the professional meetings these days. I hear about one-session or three-session or five-session treatments for Disorder X. I think we have a lifetime of learning. We have all kinds of reinforcements and punishments and incentives that are with us all day long. You really need time, and that’s something I didn’t understand as a young person.
Many times the judges here will mandate people to come see us for twelve sessions, twenty-four sessions. It’s not enough.

CC: I totally agree.

HK: I have a cousin who is a family court judge in California, and she says she recommends people for fifty-two sessions. I said, “I’m praying for that.”
CC: I just moved back to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, a year-and-a-half ago, but I was a professor at the University of Nevada before that. I co-founded a center for violent offenders in South Lake Tahoe, California. So in California, if they commit a violent crime, they are sentenced to fifty-two weeks of anger management. That’s standard. But in Nevada, just on the other side of state line, if they get in trouble there they were only sentenced to twenty-six weeks. I found in my own research that people did not make the kind of changes in twenty-six weeks, not even close, to the ones who were sentenced to fifty-two weeks. So I am a big proponent of a long treatment. Here in Pennsylvania, I’ve have judges say, “If they need a session or two.” A session or two to change a lifetime of anger? That’s just funny.
HK: Sometimes we ask patients, “How much anger management did the judge tell you you need?” “Today, just today.”
CC: “I just need to come to this one class.”
HK: If there’s anything I’ve also learned it’s that change comes about not from a class, not from education, but from practice. I teach my students practice makes better. We have to get these people into our offices and practice better behaviors with them. I even had one case, one of my students, where we started to transition from kind of barbing him and insulting in the office and frustrating him in the office, to out in the real world. So this patient happened to have worked as a shoe salesman, and what my student did is he went to the shoe store and without the patient seeing, pushed over a whole batch of shoes. This guy used to respond with great anger, but we wanted to see if we had done anything. Indeed, he responded very well. So I think practice makes better, starting in the office, going to the natural environment. That’s one thing I’ve learned that I really didn’t fully understand as a beginning therapist.
CC: I wholeheartedly and really sincerely appreciate this interview and this time with you because it’s tremendous to listen and hear and say I agree. I mean, two people practicing in totally different parts of the country and our experiences sound so similar. To me, that’s grounded in truth. There’s an essence to that change that obviously is just there regardless of words.
HK: Thank you.

Psychotherapy with Alien Beings: Cultural Competence (and Incompetence) in Psychotherapy Practice

A Klingon, a Cardassian and a Betazoid walk into Coffee Bar…

However, as on Earth, ethnicity in the Trek world comes with assumptions about behavior—stereotypes, as it were. Our Klingon will be aggressive both verbally and physically, possessed of less than perfect impulse control, yet fiercely loyal and courageous. The Cardassians are a tad pompous, overweening, with a tendency to believe themselves correct in all things, which is perhaps why they were so effective as colonizers for so long. And the Betazoid is empathic, in fact way beyond empathic, because Betazoids can read minds and feelings. The first psychotherapist character in the Trek universe was a half-Betazoid/half-human.

So the Trek-savvy among us think that we know what to expect and how to respond to our trio as they order their double tall split shot one pump mocha light foam extra hot lattes from the barista at Fremont Coffee. Their coffee order, by the way, gives you the clue that they all live in Seattle, as locals are famous for complicated coffee ordering. We psychotherapists with our degrees from the Star Fleet Academy have taken a class in diversity. Some of us have even read the Handbook of Psychotherapy with Klingons, given that working with Klingons has become a very popular specialty in the aftermath of recent wars and the uptick in PTSD in the Klingon community.

However, our expectations are entirely unmet with these three. The Klingon turns out to be quiet, polite, and shy, joking a little with the barista about the new purple streaks in her hair. The Cardassian goofs around with the other two, and is wearing jeans with holes in the knees and has a pierced eyebrow. The Betazoid seems utterly insensitive to everything going on around the coffee-drinking threesome, and seems quite self-focused when we listen in on the conversation. We sit, confused, wondering if we missed a chapter in the handbook about special concerns of species living in Seattle. Maybe the communities here are different? (All that coffee and rain). We think that perhaps we should take a continuing education class to update ourselves about the latest findings on these ethnic groups.

You may at this point be wondering why I’m telling you this tale of the extraterrestrials in my local coffee house and the confused psychotherapists who are observing them. The answer is that it illustrates something about what psychotherapists have generally believed cultural competence to consist of, and lays a foundation for my discussion of what I believe cultural competence to truly be—as well as how and why culturally competent practice epitomizes an integrative stance on psychotherapy practice.

What is Cultural Competence?

The problem lies most fundamentally in the paradigms for culturally competent practice in which most psychotherapists are trained. These paradigms at best generate a false sense of capacity and at worst, and frequently, engender feelings of guilt, shame, and incompetence, none of which are salubrious affects to bring to the practice of psychotherapy.

In the majority of psychotherapy training programs in the U.S. of which I am aware, the development of cultural competence has, until quite recently, been framed as the acquisition of data and algorithms about various groups of people. I call this the "Handbook of Psychotherapy with Alien Beings" strategy. Psychotherapists taking coursework on this topic memorize the “fact” that Asian Americans tend not to be psychologically minded, and will do better with advice and CBT, or that respect is centrally important to Latino men. We learn that in many instances our best course of action is to refer out to the colleague who specializes in Asians, or Latinas, or Cardassians, particularly one who is her or himself a member of one of these groups.

Sometimes in this graduate school class, frequently called “multicultural awareness” or “diverse populations,” there’s a week on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) people, another on aging. If the class is taught on the East Coast of the United States, the instructor may have spent some time on Jews and Italians, the not-quite-as-white Euro-American ethnic groups, while in California there might have been a lecture about Latinos, who occupy a similar niche in the social ecology of that state. A family therapy program may have assigned Monica McGoldrick and her colleagues’ work on the different kinds of ethnic families.

“No matter who’s included, the message of such training is that cultural competence is about them—it’s about the Other, the client who is “diverse,” and about how to address the problem of dealing with that other in psychotherapy.” These courses also commonly induce feelings of incompetence by conveying the message that psychotherapists probably don’t know how to work with the Other until they have acquired a set of rules about them. A strong subtext of this training is that the psychotherapist is not Other. Even when a psychotherapist is member of one of the groups being studied, such training communicates an interesting meta-message about the default assumption that, similar to police who define themselves as all blue, the therapist in training from the alien culture has now joined the new ethnic group of psychotherapists, who are de facto members of a dominant culture. As they say on Star Trek, “resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.”

This set of instructions is often intriguing to psychotherapists interested in psychotherapy integration. The “use this approach with this group” method encourages therapists to call on paradigms and interventions from several different approaches to psychotherapy, which they may or may not have in their toolbox. Thus when the integrative psychoanalyst meets the Asian client, she or he should have some CBT expertise to bring to bear.

This approach to teaching cultural competence conveys that clients who are Other don’t feel safe with or understood by most psychotherapists, and tends to induce feelings of guilt, shame, and incompetence in students. Psychotherapists will often develop anxiety about working with the Others, fearing that they will unwittingly be insensitive and hurt them, which in turn makes it that much harder for them to settle down and relate empathically with such clients. None of this is to say that having coursework on psychotherapy with the Other is inherently a bad idea; in fact, it has been a very good and necessary first step. The inclusion of any material on human diversity in psychotherapists’ training is a major advance from the state of affairs as late as the 1980s, when, as Robert Guthrie poignantly noted, “even the rat was white.”

My own training in clinical psychology in the early 1970s included absolutely no formal or informal instruction in human diversity. When I had my first African American client while in graduate school, my supervisor was as ignorant as I was about how to best make sense of him. Together we replicated the statistic about the Other dropping quickly out of therapy. We did that via a deadly combination of both therapist and supervisor feeling anxious and guilty, and my supervisor trying to school me, based only on his stereotypes and biases, in what to expect when working with one of “them.”

So the fact that by the 1990s it was becoming more commonplace for psychotherapists in the U.S. to encounter some formal coursework on human diversity in their training seemed wonderful to those of us who, like myself, had become passionate about making psychotherapy a more socially just enterprise. Even with the rules and the guilt and the shame, it was something. Attention to diversity had become a principle in the ethics code of American psychology, and a criterion by which training programs were accredited, and that was an important advance.

There were problems inherent in the first emergent model, however. “A therapist could read the Handbook of Psychotherapy with Klingons, and become known among the local psychotherapy community as the person who got the referral when a Klingon client showed up in their practice. This did nothing for one’s competence with Vulcans, though.” The norms for behavior in the two cultures are deeply opposite, the themes and metaphors distinct, and the approach to be used by a psychotherapist entirely different. The official Klingon expert might also not have learned much about gender roles in Klingon culture, and accidentally extrapolate earth-bound norms about gender to working with Klingon women, which would be deeply erroneous. Not many Klingons of earlier generations survived into later life, given their tendencies toward violence, so there was no chapter on aging in the Handbook. A 70-year-old Klingon shows up in your office—what do you do with him? The “learn a set of rules for the space aliens” that promoted doing cultural competence by rote gave you no instructions for this particular anomaly.

The reality that knowing a great deal of specific knowledge about a given group was a problematic paradigm for developing cultural competence as a psychotherapist became increasingly apparent toward the end of the '90s. Like the visitors to my neighborhood coffee house, many of our clients were refusing to follow the rules about their groups that psychotherapists had carefully learned and memorized in the diverse populations classes. Those of us who, like myself, had spent the '70s and '80s most preoccupied with gender and sexuality were impertinently commenting that these factors influenced expressions of ethnicity. The folks interested in social class and disability had similar notions about the possibility that those kinds of experiences might make for a different creature than the generic humanoid that we’d studied in our diverse populations class. Our coffee-drinking Klingon is a woman; the Cardassian is a trans man, and the Betazoid is a hip young cis-gender guy. The chapter on Cardassians never even mentioned gender expression. Eek. What’s the well-meaning psychotherapist to do?

Intersectionality and Integration

To understand these models, it helps to comprehend what we mean by the construct of intersectionality. Put simply, it is that each of us is more than the most obvious component of our identity, and that these mixtures of aspects of self occur in a myriad of ways. This also means that we have aspects of self, referred to as social locations, which inform identity even, or particularly, when they are invisible to others, and that relate one to another in a range of ways. As the protean actress Sarah Jones, who performs one-woman shows in which she becomes many characters, noted in a speech at the 2009 TED conference, “We are all born into certain circumstances with particular physical traits, unique developmental experiences, geographical and historical contexts, but then to what extent do we self-construct, do we self-invent? How do we self-identify? And how mutable is that self-identity?”

Psychotherapy is all about changing identities, from spoiled to whole—but perhaps we might find that we are more effective at making those changes when we are attuned to the component parts of the person’s tapestry of self. Appreciating intersectionality, which is core to culturally competent practice, to some degree requires openness and flexibility on the part of a psychotherapist; conducting psychotherapy from the starting point of grasping an individual’s intersecting identities is by and of itself an intentionally integrative strategy for conducting the business of psychotherapy.

Intersectionalities provide both psychotherapist and client with information about those processes of self-invention to which Sarah Jones refers. Attending to intersectionalities allows for interrogating the process of self-invention via the disentanglement of the strands of self, including those that have generated psychological distress and problematic behaviors. This disentanglement is to my way of thinking, central to the enterprise of psychotherapy. For many of the people who come to us with their misery, the process of self-construction has been one of problematic conflation—a tangling of negative characteristics and experiences of powerlessness and hopelessness with important aspects of self. All the while, other components of self, which might lead to a different and more functional and peaceful construction, remain in the background, ignored or unexplored.

ADDRESSING Multiple Identities

The first is a broadening of the dimensions on which human diversity might be considered. Rather than privileging ethnicity/phenotype as the sole or primary marker of human difference, these 21st Century models describe a multiplicity of the variables that I refer to as social locations—aspects of the social and interpersonal domain in which a person is located, some or all of which contribute to the development of identity.

ADDRESSING, for instance, stands for Age, Disability, Religion, Ethnicity, Social Class, Sexual orientation, Indigenous Origins, National Origin, and Gender. This is clearly not an exhaustive list—in my own recent work on cultural competence in trauma practice, for instance, I have expanded Hays’ list to include such factors as histories of colonization—both as colonizer and colonized—relationship and parenting statuses, size, attractiveness, combat experience, and interpersonal violence. Hays explicitly states, and I concur, that all humans have a stake in almost every one of these dimensions.

The second aspect that these emerging models of human difference offer is the vision of these factors intersecting in a multiplicity of ways. As I mentioned a moment ago, these intersections are not simply additive, or even multiplicative, nor necessarily layered. They are sometimes the sum of their parts; they are, on occasion, more than, or different from, that sum. Maria Root, who has been at the forefront of proposing new paradigms for theorizing the experience of people of mixed phenotype and heritage (aka “racially mixed”) has found, in her research on sibling pairs from such families, that there are as many as five different and equally likely trajectories of intersectional identity development. These include everything from going along with what the culture thinks you are, to “add and stir,” to the Tiger Woods “I’m a Casablanasian” strategy, to what Root calls “symbolic” identity in which the phenomenology of self is in no way visibly linked to biological characteristics such as phenotype or sex.

Understanding intersectionalities is a first step towards cultural competence. The parameters of cultural competence are no longer met by reading and memorizing the rules from the handbook of psychotherapy with the Other. “While some specific cultural knowledge can be helpful, we are beginning to see it as being as potentially misleading as it is informative. It is useful to know that Klingon culture is war-oriented largely so that we can consider what it means that our coffee-drinking Klingon is, herself, not.”

Instead, what the 21st century paradigms for cultural competence have generated is a new way of understanding how we, as psychotherapists, can understand the facets of people’s identities that are important to them, both those that transcend the distress for which they seek treatment, as well as those that inform that distress in terms of its etiology, its expression, and its treatment. From this standpoint of cultural competence, all symptoms are what the DSM calls “culture-bound.” A culturally competent lens lets us know that the thing we call Major Depressive Disorder is the Euro-American/European culture-bound version of expressing this particular subjective experience, for instance.

The next important component of these emerging paradigms is that they also require the psychotherapist to understand her or his own biases, and to engage with them mindfully rather than operate from the fantasy that they can be put aside in the name of that great illusion, objectivity. Culturally competent practice informs us that objectivity is what those in positions of power call their own subjectivities. Thus, the culturally competent psychotherapist has discarded the notion of neutrality in favor of that of compassion: observation without judgment, including judgment of oneself for being human and biased. She or he learns to notice bias, and to bring its realities into the foreground of consciousness, to say to the client, “Perhaps we can talk for a bit about the fact that I’m from Earth and you’re Klingon—what might that mean for you.” The old model of cultural competence that would be blind to difference is washing away; after all, how can one not notice the many deep furrows in a Klingon’s brow? Or the melanin tint in the skin of someone whose ancestors did not mostly come from Europe?

Working from the Inside Out

What if, instead of working in this top-down manner we switched polarities and, using our shared commitments to integrative work, began to tailor the therapy to the specific needs of our clients, and to work with them from the inside out? This is not a new idea; Prochaska and his colleagues’ “stages of change” model offers a meta-theory of psychotherapy which invites us to do just that, noticing that at each point in the process clients are more likely to respond to certain types of therapeutic interventions than to others. John Norcross has been suggesting using assessment of client stage of change as a strategy for customizing psychotherapy for most of this century. I’m suggesting we this a step further, and see cultural competence in psychotherapy as an ultimate outcome of integration, particularly of a common-factors model.

Working from the inside out with a model of intersectionality allows a psychotherapist to drill down deeply into the core of two things. The first are the sources of distress, of pain, of woundedness, of overload and disconnection—for it is at the emotional locations of our identities that many of our wounds lie. Sometimes the very fact of being wounded is one of the powerful threads running through the weave of our intersectional fabric; often, the wounds attach to other powerful threads. “Conceptualizing people’s psychological problems not only as symptoms to be eradicated, but also as evidence of aspects of identity, generates some very novel ways of approaching the problem of alleviating distress.”

The Ubiquity of Trauma

Many of us are children of trauma survivors, living with legacies of intergenerational transmission of trauma experiences. Indigenous peoples of this continent, African-Americans, Jews, Khmer, Native Hawaiians and Armenians are but a few of the groups that have been on the receiving end of genocidal violence.There is a plethora of additional examples, since trauma has been pervasive in human experience.

We are also perpetrators. Some of us are the descendants of slave-holders, of soldiers who shot women and children in this country’s genocidal wars against its indigenous people, of those who imprisoned or tortured others in the countries from which they came. Our ancestors suffered what Shays calls the “moral injury” of being trauma perpetrators, and in many cases that was traumatic to them, and to the family cultures that they created and of which we are the inheritors. Some of our families served in the governments of Batista’s Cuba, Stalin’s USSR, Hitler’s Germany, South Africa under apartheid. Some of our ancestors have been beaten; some of our ancestors administered those beatings. For some of us, our ancestors include both; many African Americans carry the genes of a slaveholder great-great-grandfather who raped their enslaved great-great-grandmother. Perpetrator and victim consciousness live within our cultures, our families, our psychological realities. They are a component of our constructions of identity.

The phenomenon of trauma attaches itself to the threads of intersectionality. Conceptualizing an individual’s distress from the standpoint of cultural competence leads us to query not only whether she or he is sleeping or eating or having terrible images of past or future come into her or his mind, but to consider the various facets of identity and how they interact one with another and create an individual’s suffering. We can then tailor our therapy relationship and the interventions that emerge from it to the identities and realities that are salient to this individual.

The second, equally important thing revealed by the adoption of an epistemology of intersectionality are the sources of strength, resilience, joy, and creativity that reside in the social locations which comprise the warp and woof of each individual’s identity. Just as these variables of identity inform distress, so they also generate narratives of survival, thriving, and active responses to the vicissitudes of the world.

Culturally competent psychotherapy practice thus begins with the client at the center of conceptualization, not with the diagnosis, not with a treatment manual, not with the therapist’s idea of what to do next. Rather than conceptualizing the problem, culturally competent practice “diagnoses” the person via a sensitive understanding of her or his identity, allowing that to generate a narrative which reveals distress and strengths alike. Questions of how to heal, and how to evoke strengths in the service of, and in collaboration with, the specific modalities of psychotherapy being offered, emerge from an understanding of those various strands of identity, rather than from the imposition of a particular psychotherapeutic model.

Evidenced-Based Failures and Common Factors Successes

As it turns out, an attention to the common factors and to psychotherapy relationship variables is frequently a way to be accidentally laying the foundation for culturally competent practice. What those of us who practice from the starting point of cultural competence have repeatedly found is that the intentional application of common factors, combined with a thoughtful and respectful attention to clients’ identities and intersectionalities, largely described how we operated. This has been true in my own work developing feminist therapy practice.

The more I developed theory in feminist therapy and deepened my own comprehension of what it implied, the more I realized that, not only is feminist practice a technically integrative one, as I had long been saying, but it is also a practice that is founded in the common factors, with strong emphasis on relationship variables. It is also founded most centrally in attention to cultural competence through the lens of gender. When, as feminist therapists do, I pay attention to intersectionalities via the strategy of analyzing gender, power, and social location, I inevitably find that my most effective therapeutic tools include the person-centered facilitative conditions of empathy, genuineness, and positive regard, as well as those variables that contribute to therapeutic alliance.

For instance: the presence of cultural empathy in a therapist—that is, the ability to suspend one’s frames of reference in order to deeply enter that of the client—has been strongly associated with good psychotherapy outcomes for clients who are members of target groups. The therapist’s capacity to own and acknowledge bias, and to apologize for its unintentional infliction (aka relationship repair) is also strongly associated with client reports of satisfaction and good outcome. Many clients who are members of target groups experience dominant group therapists as distant or chilly; these “cold therapist” variables, which are associated with weak therapeutic alliance, are often a by-product of the absence of a culturally-informed and competent stance on the client and the relationship.

Discourse needs to occur, in both and all directions, between those whose central focus on psychotherapy derives from the position of cultural competence and those most centrally interested in understanding the common factors of psychotherapy and integration across paradigms. One thing that I have found interesting, and curious, is that while the research on culturally competent practice comments on therapists’ capacities to engage in the sorts of behaviors that contribute to good outcomes through the lenses of cultural awareness, the common factors literature does not, at least in my reviews of it, pay any attention to issues of culture, identities or intersectionalities. While there is some very beginner work on matching of therapist and client on factors such as sex or ethnicity, there’s not really much in the psychotherapy outcome world that asks about identities, intersectionalities, and therapist awareness of bias and privilege. But how might the power of our work be enhanced if we also assessed such variables as the impact of cultural awareness and cultural empathy on client and therapist alike, and on the outcomes of psychotherapy? How might we be better served in our quest to develop psychotherapies that serve more people, more effectively, if researchers of outcomes routinely attempted to assess the cultural competence of the psychotherapist?

We Are All Other

My own bias, and that of the growing band of hardy souls who have been pioneering the broader model of culturally competent psychotherapy practice, is that when we start with the client’s identities and our own, and then work our way backwards into the therapy, we are not only more effective at integration across theories and applications, we are also more likely to meet clients where they are. This, I would argue, creates the interpersonal conditions within which people are more willing to take the risky steps inherent in a change process, because as psychotherapists we have initiated, and modeled, the willingness to change our stance, and modify our ways of seeing, and hearing, and knowing, in order to encounter our clients in their social and phenomenological realities. What I have learned by practicing from a foundation of striving toward cultural competence is that sometimes what looks like being stuck in the pre-contemplation stage can as easily be someone saying, “Why should I admit vulnerability and imperfection to you, oh member of the dominant group that already judges me from the moment you see me?”

I encourage each of us to remember that while we are all human, we are all each, in some important way, Other. If cultural competence infuses our work, then we are more likely to make the connections from which genuine psychotherapy occurs. Cultural competence is not a special topic, nor a political interest; it is, and should be, central to the work of psychotherapists seeking to most effectively empower our clients.

Eduardo Duran on Psychotherapy with Native Americans

Lost in the Wilderness

Deb Kory: You are a Native American clinical psychologist, scholar, teacher and healer, who has worked primarily in the Native American community over the last several decades. Your most recent book, Healing the Soul Wound: Counseling with American Indians and Other Native Peoples, centers on the theme of healing historical trauma. Can you describe what you mean by historical trauma, and how you came to this work?
Eduardo Duran: Well, it started very early on. I had just gotten out of the military, and I was working in this community up in the mountains, pretty much by myself. I was in graduate school at the California School of Professional Psychology (CSPP) and was supposed to be developing a mental health program. People were coming to me for help, but I frankly didn't know anything about therapy. They weren’t easy clients—they had serious issues—and my supervisor was in the city, so I had to kind of start inventing stuff.
DK: Was this on a reservation or just in a rural community?
ED: It was a reservation up in the mountains. Very remote. The curious thing was that people assumed, “He’s an Indian guy, so he must know how to do this therapy thing.” At that point nobody else wanted to do it, so it was kind of up to me. So I started developing a needs assessment and came up with the usual stuff—there was a lot of depression, alcoholism, and those types of problems in the community.

When I took my report back to the Tribal Council they said, “Those are not our problems,” which really threw me. I could see with my own eyes that these were their problems. They completely rejected what I was doing and told me to go back and try something else.
Basically everything I was doing was being rejected. And here I was paying a lot of money to go to graduate school and it was not working with my clients.


At the same time people were coming to me for therapy and I was doing the best I could with my limited knowledge of cognitive behavioral therapy. But these folks were also telling me, “We don’t want this. We don’t want to talk about this stuff.”

Basically everything I was doing was being rejected. And here I was paying a lot of money to go to graduate school and it was not working with my clients.
 
DK: They just weren’t having any of it.
ED: No they weren’t, and I was at my wit’s end. I went back to the Tribal Council with another report, and at this point I had switched over to using a qualitative methods approach and thought for sure I had the goods now. And they rejected it again. I had no idea what to do.

Then this old guy there says, “What you need to do is go up in the mountains and consult the spirits.” At that time, CSPP did not have a Consulting Spirits class. 
DK: It’s probably safe to say they still don’t.
ED: I think you’re right. So I was like, “OK, now what? I don’t know how to do this.” I'd heard stories of ancient people and the burning bush and all that, so I went up into the mountains, and with nobody looking I just kind of walked around. 
DK: Did you see a burning bush?
ED: No.
I was wandering around there like a dummy, hoping nobody saw me walking through the trees. I didn’t hear anything. Nobody talked to me. And no spirits came.
I was wandering around there like a dummy, hoping nobody saw me walking through the trees. I didn’t hear anything. Nobody talked to me. And no spirits came.

At the time I was sharing an office with a doctor and a nurse practitioner. It was actually an RV, an Indian Health Service RV, and we were so cramped. People just kept coming to me for help and I had exhausted my Western tool bag. What people wanted to talk about was their dreams and, of course, I didn't know anything about dreams. In grad school, they didn’t teach us anything about dreams.

So I would just sit there using the two techniques that I learned, that all psychologists need to know to be psychologists. The first one is when you have no idea what's going on—which is most of the time for me, anyway—you say, “Well, what do you think that means?” So I did that. And they said, “If we knew what it meant, we wouldn't be here talking to you, would we?”

So they took that one away from me, and all I had left was the deep-look-in-your-eye technique, and nodding “hmm.” Pretending that I knew stuff. Well, that bought me some space.

It was during this time that I started having the feeling that there were other people in the room.
 

Seven Generations

DK: Wow. That must have been unnerving.
ED: It sure was. And I couldn't very well acknowledge it with my clients who were coming to me for help. You know, because that’s against the rules. One of the rules of being a psychologist is, “Thou must not hallucinate in front of patients.”
DK: Did you worry that you were going crazy?
ED: Actually, yeah. It was a very difficult time because I didn't have any context for this. But it happened that around this time, there was a particular traditional healer, or medicine man, that I had heard a lot of stories about. He arrived at my door one day to kind of just help or check me out or something.
One of the rules of being a psychologist is, “Thou must not hallucinate in front of patients.”
As he was talking, and using tobacco in the sacred way, I thought, “He's probably as good a guy as any to run this by.” I figured he’d say I was stressed out from working and graduate school and needed to take a break or something.

So I told him what I was experiencing and he said the exact opposite of what I wanted to hear: “The reason you're feeling that is because they are there.” I was like, “What?! Who's there? I don't need this.”
 
DK: You were actually disappointed that he didn’t tell you that you were just going crazy and needed to stop what you were doing. 
ED: Yeah. “Just go and take some time off. Take some nice anti-psychotic medication and all will be well.” He didn't do that. He told me that in most Native communities here and across the world where I've been, there's a very common saying that “everything you do affects seven generations.” And he said, “It's not just in one direction. In spirit time or dream time, it also can go backwards. So seven generations back, seven generations forward, which means a lot of the unborn ones are also being affected. You and me talking today, we're affecting seven generations of our ancestors and descendants.” Then he went on to explain that between the year 1870 and 1900, 80% of the Native people in the communities I was working with had been exterminated. By the military, through disease, complete tribes were wiped out.
Between the year 1870 and 1900, 80% of the Native people in the communities I was working with had been exterminated.


He said that what was happening was because of the rules of natural law, that there needed to be healing, but it had to take place in a particular way. There had to be grieving and healing of the trauma, but because there had been no time to do that in the past, the energies or the spirits of the ancestors of the people I was working with were showing up in sessions. They needed to heal through their descendant here.

I mean, what do you do with that? 
DK: Yeah, what did you do with that?
ED: I sat with it in disbelief. But since nothing else I was doing was really making any sense to the people I was working with, I thought, “Well, I’ll try this. I'll tell some of these people what he said and just see what happens.” And it made perfect sense to the people I was working with. And it started helping me make more sense of the dreams, because a lot of the dreams involved trauma. Some of the people I was seeing had serious problems—addictions, violence, family dysfunction, all of that—and, to my surprise, using this frame to work through their dreams really started making people better. 
DK: Did any of your clients also have the experience of other beings, spirits being in the room? 
ED: They had experiences in their life where that had happened but, like me, they didn't have the context for understanding it. So, by me being able to talk about it, they were able to say, “Oh by the way, I've been seeing my great-great-grandpa appearing. But I can't tell people because they'll think I'm crazy.” And, of course, that was true.

"You're on the Right Track"

DK: They would be institutionalized.
ED: Exactly. In fact, I remember I was invited by the Federal Agency, the Indian Health Service, to give a report to them about what I was doing. So I gave a presentation about this—not like I’m talking to you; I tried to cover it up a little bit. And during my talk, these two guys in uniform from the Public Health Service came up to the podium and I thought they were going to congratulate me, but as they got to me, one of them whispered in my ear, “What the hell do you think you're doing?”
DK: Wow.
ED: And the other one said, “You're going to ruin your career before it starts.”
DK: Were they Native American?
ED: One was and the other one wasn't. But they were high-ranking people in the Public Health Corps and in the Indian Health Service. They were high up on the food chain and had control over the money, so they could mess with me.

By this time I had already encountered my teacher, Terrence, who would play such a big role in my life, so I went up to see him, and he basically said, “Don't worry about that. Keep going. You’re on the right track.”
DK: So you got important validation at a crucial moment.
ED: Right before he went on to the spirit world, one of the things he told me was, “If everybody's liking everything you're doing, you're doing something wrong.” I really try to honor that wherever I go.
DK: Pissing people off is kind of underrated in our field.
ED: Yes, and he was able to offer the container for me through all of it. In my meetings with him, he would kind of contain my psyche. My clinical supervisor could only do so much and I could only tell him so much if I wanted to stay in the profession.
DK: We’re going to be releasing a video this month featuring Derald Wing Sue, one of the main forces behind multicultural training in psychotherapy. 
ED: Oh yeah, I know Derald.
DK: In the video he talks a little bit about his beginnings in this field, and there are commonalities in your stories. He got into psychology many decades ago and realized that the fundamental structure of the field was pathologizing to Asian culture. He had to figure out a way to carve out a space that made sense for his own culture and upbringing, and ended up shedding a lot of light on the profession’s profound inadequacies.

It sounds like you also had firsthand experience of being an outsider in this field—being told you were crazy and being shut down by people around you. I can imagine being pretty traumatized by that.
ED: I had an experience recently in New Zealand, reviewing a dissertation of a Maori man, where he talks about exactly this same phenomenon. In New Zealand, they’re in the beginning stages of this cultural competency training, and the Maori are pathologized in very much the same way that Native people here still are.

That’s why I write the stuff I write. There’s no other reason to write it. There's no money in academic publishing. But in the Western world, if it's published it's “true”; If you just say it, it's just anecdotal, right?
 
DK: Oral tradition isn’t considered scientific enough in the Western paradigm. How are you treated when you go to more traditional Western schools and talk about seeing spirits and having these scientifically unprovable experiences?
ED: It’s interesting. I did a talk for folks in the judicial system here in Montana—you know, cops and judges—and I thought, “This isn’t going to go well.” But I gave my talk and at the break, three or four officers came up and I thought they were really going to let me have it, but instead they said they were so relieved to hear me talk. They work with people who are locked up in jails and prisons, and they said that they were having these same experiences, of seeing people and thinking they were just going crazy. My stories gave them a context to understand their experiences and they were just very relieved. I was totally blown away by that. These were guys with guns and stuff.

So I think it’s more widespread than we think, but people stay closeted. What I do is validate it so they come out. The same with therapists. When I do these talks with therapists types, they don’t dare say it openly, but at breaks they’ll come and whisper in my ear that this has happened to them.
DK: Are these mostly Native American people?
ED: Not at all. I'm working with this one brother right now who happens to be from a Jewish tradition. And he's experiencing these things in the room and seeing ancestors with the patients.
All I'm doing is basically saying that it's okay to be human and to have a spirit. You have a soul, go with it.
He asked me, “What do I do with this?” And I told him, if it's going to help the patient, he’d better do something. He’s slowly allowing himself to go with the reality that he's experiencing.

All I'm doing is basically saying that it's okay to be human and to have a spirit. You have a soul, go with it. Because, that's what people really are needing at this point.
 

Colonial Research Methods

DK: I'm just imagining some people in this field, more traditional Western-trained types, who would not be inclined to believe any of this because there’s no way to measure and validate what you’re doing. There’s a big emphasis these days on evidence based treatments, and this kind of spirit-based treatment, or spiritually oriented treatment, isn’t quantifiable in any way.
ED: There's a big movement with a lot of Native scholars from all over the world to respond to the evidence-based demand, since the only way you can get your practice to be considered evidence-based in a Western world is by using Western based empirical methods.
DK: Is this what you’ve called in some of your writings, “historical narcissism”? Where one culture’s frame of reference is the frame with which to judge all others?
ED: Yeah. And it's also neo-colonialism, because if you set out rules that require everything to be validated through a certain filter, then what you're saying is that if it's not Western, it doesn't work.
If you're using colonial methods to do the research, there's only one thing that's going to come out. You're going to come out with a colonial result.
A lot of Native people all over the world, indigenous people, are really sensitive to that and say, “then we don't want it.” If you're using colonial methods to do the research, there's only one thing that's going to come out. You're going to come out with a colonial result. If we are to first “do no harm,” then this way of thinking and “validating” is unethical and immoral. It harms indigenous communities.
DK: The research itself is a form of harm? Or the methods?
ED: There has to be another way of doing research, of getting “evidence-based” approval of more historical, traditional healing methods that have been in our communities for thousands of years. Why aren't those evidence based? It’s the colonial mindset that cannot accept them.

The very definition of the Western medical model is adversarial and pathologizing. In Native communities, it's all about relationships. We create relationships, even with the pathology itself. To the Native person it's not a matter of getting rid of the depression. It's a matter of making a relative out of it and learning something. It’s kind of an existential trip. Not unlike the Irvin Yalom’s work, actually.
DK: Backing up for a minute, how is it that you were so decontextualized from your own roots? I read that you were born in New Mexico. Were you born in a tribal community?
ED: No, we moved all over. My dad worked construction, so we lived in places that weren't even places, up in the mountains.
DK: You also worked as a migrant farm worker.
ED: Yeah, I did. That's when I decided to go into the military, because that was too hard. Boy did I get that wrong.
DK: You served in Vietnam, correct? 
ED: Yeah, I'm a veteran. The first day at boot camp I thought, “What the hell have I done? I should have stayed in the fields!”
DK: Migrant farm work was probably a piece of cake in comparison.
ED: I thought, “This was a big mistake”—but it was too late. But the experience was valuable. Out of that I was able to get the GI Bill, which helped me get educated and get where I am today. 

A Nice White Guy

DK: So you went back to school to become a clinical psychologist?
ED: Not right away. The first college course I ever took was on the naval base. I didn't think I could go to college. I was told all along I couldn't. So I decided to try some classes on the naval base. I got B’s in the classes and thought, "Huh, maybe something is wrong here. Let me try another couple of classes." And I got A's in those. Then I thought, "I'm going to try the junior college, because this doesn't count." And I got A’s in those classes. By then I was like, “Somebody didn't tell me the truth here.”
DK: You found out you were quite smart.
ED: Yeah, so I kept going. But I got into trouble fairly early on, because I started saying stuff in class, especially psychology courses. One of my most momentous experiences was with this guy Jerome Sattler, a bigwig in assessment methods. I was in his class and started talking about how maybe assessment methods for Native children weren’t quite up to par. I'll never forget the last time I saw him I was at his door, and he closed the door, but as he was closing it he said, “You want to be a psychologist? Ha!” and he closed the door in my face.
DK: That’s appalling. 
ED: I thought I was done and that my career was over before I started, but there was a Native woman teaching there, Gwen Cooper, and she said, “Don’t worry, you can do this.” She pointed me in the direction of my graduate school and the rest is history.
DK: Well you sure showed him. 
ED: Yeah. The same thing happened in my Master’s program, in an assessment class, actually. I wrote a paper and the professor gave me a C. When I went to talk to him about it, he said, "It’s not because it’s not a good paper, it’s because you shouldn’t be saying what you’re saying in this paper." In that program, if you got two C’s you were kicked out, so I had to really learn early on to go underground and not say what I was thinking.
DK:
I went underground and just pretended to be this nice white guy for the remaining time.
That’s so dehumanizing. I found graduate school dehumanizing and I’m white and there were a bunch of multicultural courses required of us. I can’t even imagine what that was like for you.
ED: I went underground and just pretended to be this nice white guy for the remaining time.
DK: You lose a part of yourself that way. Then you have to work to get it back.
ED: That’s just what happens. A lot of Native students approach me and ask, “Where is there a program where we can study what you're doing?” And I tell them there isn’t one. You just have to go through it and hope you can keep your soul at the end of this. But a lot of them don't. If you pretend long enough, then you become it.
DK: Or you become depressed. 
ED: Yeah. This is where Terrance really helped, because he wouldn’t let me become this middle American guy that just believed in that.
DK: It must have been kind of a shock to go back into those rural Indian communities and feel like after all of that, you had nothing to offer them. It sounds like you kind of got your ass handed back to you by those folks. And to connect with them you were forced to connect back with your own roots, your own spiritual traditions. 
ED: It was really rough. Early on when I was doing the needs assessment, I had prepared this survey instrument, and I had sent it throughout the community. I thought, “Good, I'll have data so I can develop this program.” In that linear approach, you get the data, develop the program, implement and then evaluate. So I thought, “Voila, I'll cure this community in no time!”

Two weeks after the instruments went out in the community, they all came back to me and they were blank. I asked the community help workers, “Didn’t you guys take these out into the homes?”
Talk about cultural incompetence—I was the epitome of cultural incompetence. But I'm so blessed that they taught me.
They said, “Yeah, but the elders said that the reason they hired you in the first place was because they thought your grandmother taught you better manners than this. What gives you the right to go around asking us a bunch of stupid questions like this?” Talk about cultural incompetence—I was the epitome of cultural incompetence. But I'm so blessed that they taught me. A lot of times Native people are very polite and they won't say things like that.
 
DK: But you would have been shut out, right?
ED: Yeah, they would have pretended, and they would have paid me still, but nobody would have come. I would have just been wasting my time. I was very fortunate that they honored me enough to tell me the truth.
DK: Were you raised with some of these traditions or was it all new to you?
ED: Well, it was a mix. I got some of it, but because of the colonized way that it was treated, I had no real relationship with it. And I grew up in a very dysfunctional home with a lot of alcohol and violence, so those traditions were sort of on the periphery.

My grandparents followed a fairly spiritual way of being, were kind of models, but I didn't really know what it was that they were doing. They would take me to some of the ceremonial stuff, but there was often a lot of alcohol involved in that too, so there was a real contamination of the tradition with the dysfunction. So again, with the teachings of Terrance, I was able to finally see clearly through that.
DK: To see what was colonial intrusion and what was more of the essence of the tradition that you could reclaim?
ED: Yeah. That’s what I try to do with the people I see, because most of them are in the same situation where they're really struggling in between worlds—in between the religions and the loss of identity. By realizing who you are, your existence opens up and so much more becomes possible. If you don't know who you are, and there's no identity, it's real easy to kill yourself. If there's somebody there, it's a lot harder to commit suicide.

Cultural Competence

DK: I want to switch for a moment to the topic of cultural competence for psychotherapists. These days, most graduate schools have multicultural competence courses as part of their curriculum, and while this is certainly progress—considering the state of things when you went through graduate school—I think we’re still far from truly being trained competently in multicultural competence. The article written by Laura Brown that we’re releasing along with this interview offers a strong critique of what she calls the “Handbook for Therapy with Aliens” strategy that so many training programs offer.

In my own relatively recent graduate school experience, the cultural competency work that we did ended up being very divisive. People of color are still astonishingly under-represented in this field, and many in my program I think felt quite wounded by having to go through the process of people coming to terms with their own racism; but they were also wounded by the folks who weren’t willing to really dig deep into the work. Derald Wing Sue calls this latter phenomenon, “invisible whiteness,” where people just don’t see their privilege, or the fact that the dominant white-hetero-male-etc. culture even is a culture.

And then on the other hand, a number of white students felt like it was just a long guilt trip, and that the ways in which they’d experienced oppression weren’t privileged in the multicultural context. You know, the white woman who was born to heroin addicts and grew up in desperate poverty having a hard time identifying with the word “privileged.” And yet, of course white folks have white privilege. It was and remains a deeply important process, but in my experience we were more divided into factions after the training. The environment hadn’t really been able to contain us as a group and it left me wondering if cultural competence was even possible.

What has your experience been in cultural competency training? Is it preferable to have Native psychologists treating Native communities? Or is it possible for non-Natives to become truly competent in treating Native communities?
 
ED: Well, just being Native isn't the answer either. There are a lot of not just Native, but African-American, Latino and Asian psychologists who are being co-opted and internalize the oppression and that's even worse than being oppressed by a white person. Because you kind of expect it from the white person, but it’s a double hit when one of your own with internalized oppression does it to you.

But of course it can be done. Otherwise, it would be really hopeless and we should just shoot ourselves right now, right? But cultural competency training can't be a paternalistic, three-unit course where we learn little techniques to use with each culture—like not looking people in the eye as a sign of respect or whatever. There’s no list of stuff to make you culturally competent if everything coming out of your mouth is Westernese. That doesn't work.
Cultural competency training can't be a paternalistic, three-unit course where we learn little techniques to use with each culture—like not looking people in the eye as a sign of respect or whatever.


I was invited to do a talk to a bunch of doctors and pharmacists and also a bunch of Native, traditional people about how to work in each other's worlds. I knew if I went in there and talked Westernese, then the Indians were going to shut down; and if I talked about traditional Indian stuff, then the doctors were going to shut down. So I came up with the idea of going back to the birth of the archetypes, where the female energy of the earth herself gives form to everything that is. The essence of my talk was that everything in Western medicine and Western philosophy, as well as Native philosophy and medicine, comes from the same source—that one great mother gave birth to all of it, and we then put the cultural flavor on it.

I gave examples of the ancient Greek doctor Asclepius, who is considered the first Western physician, and how he used the dreams of his patients to help heal them, in much the same way that Natives did and do.
 
DK: The Rod of Asclepius is the universal sign for medicine, right? With the snake?
ED: Yeah, exactly. He would take people into caves and wash them with water and steam, and that initial process was called a catharsis. Then they were taken into an inner chamber where they were supposed to have a healing dream. They would sit on this little stone couch, which was called a clinic, and they would have their healing dream. A lot of these dreams were recorded; you can look them up online.

For ancient Greeks, a medical doctor was a doctor of the body, of the mind, and of the spirit who was able, through dreams, to allow the patient to have their healing. That’s the root of Western medicine.
For ancient Greeks, a medical doctor was a doctor of the body, of the mind, and of the spirit who was able, through dreams, to allow the patient to have their healing. That’s the root of Western medicine.

So I was talking about all this stuff and all the Indians were like, “Whoa, that's like what we do.” And the doctors were like, “We did that?” And I said, “Yeah, where did you lose it?”

Western medical models are pretty guy-oriented, built around antagonism. That’s why we have wars on sickness, wars on cancer, etc. The Native way is more female oriented, about relationship. Instead of saying, “You have a major depressive disorder,” which crystallizes the sickness, we say, “You are being visited by the spirit of sadness.” It’s a very different message to give the patient. They are more empowered, they feel they can actually move through it.

In English, there’s a noun-ing that happens that freezes you in space and time. If you say you are a woman, well, that's all you can be. But if it's woman-ing that’s happening, then guess what? Man-ning can also happen over there. 
DK: Womaning and manning in one person.
ED: Yeah. Those energies can move. And what a way to live—you’re free to be whatever at any moment in time. I met this elder in Canada a couple years ago, and he told me that in his language there are no nouns.
DK: My brain can’t even compute that.
ED: What do you do with that, right? But that's how he walks through the world, with no nouns; so everything's in movement. And in quantum theory we're finding out that that's really the way it is. The universe is really in movement, and nothing really exists, right?

In the Navajo tradition, there’s an idea of Changing Woman, where there’s no image that can be made of her because she is constantly changing, and because she’s constantly changing, she’s not anything. But if she’s not anything, she can be everything.
 
DK: That's some deep wisdom right there. So it seems like you’re trying to unify people by harkening back to unifying metaphors. 
ED: Yes. I did the anger thing, where I critiqued and rejected white culture, but that didn’t work, they just got more dug in. And now it’s more that we can share these traditions in a way that will serve everyone.

"We're Modern People"

DK: Have you had the experience of treating Native Americans who just don’t want to hear about tradition? Who flat out reject their roots?
ED: Oh, absolutely.
DK: How do you deal with that? Is it a necessary part of their healing to be able return to their Native traditions?
ED: Oh yeah, identity needs to be restored; without that they're going to be flailing out there. But initially I don't tell them that. We psychologists are supposed to be tricky right? That's the whole tradition. 
DK: So first you gain their trust?
ED: Gain their trust, the therapeutic alliance and all that good stuff—again through their own dreams, their own process, it's restored. I’ll give you an example. I do dream groups, especially in substance abuse programs, and this one day I was leading a group and I was talking about the spirit of alcohol and how it’s an energy, and this young Indian guy rolled his eyes and said, “You sound just like my grandmother.” Which I took as a great compliment. He said, “We're modern people,” and I said, “Well that’s good. You don't have to believe this. I'm just offering another idea here.”

In my experience, patients in treatment for substance abuse have moments of being trapped in bed—they can't scream, they can't get up, and it's very terrifying. So two days later I came back to the program to do my dream group, and this guy was at the door waiting for me. He was ashen. “That thing happened to me. I couldn't get up and I couldn't cry. I couldn't move. I couldn't breathe, and it was really scary.” So here's where my psychologist manipulation came in. I said, “Well, gee, I wonder what happened?” He answered, “It was the spirit of alcohol.”

“I wonder what you could do about that?” I had already talked to the group about what to do. And he said, “Well, I could make an offering to the spirit.” I encouraged him to make an offering to that energy, whether it was alcohol or depression. He said, “How do I do that?”

See, so now his identity's starting to be turned. He’s doing the intervention, but he's also bringing himself back. And of course I always tease people. “What kind of Indian are you, anyway?”
 
DK: Kind of like you were, right?
ED: Exactly. So I said, “You use some tobacco, because that's the form of offering that is used by most Native people, and give the spirit of alcohol some of that and see what it does. It might accept it, it might not. I don't know.”

Two days later I come back for the group and he’s waiting for me at the door, looking worse than before. So I'm like, now what? And he said, “I put my offerings in this place, and they took them.” Whoever they are, they literally took the physical tobacco, and that really freaked him out. He’d been sober for a couple of months, so it wasn’t a hallucination or anything. So now he's realizing that he's moving in a whole other world. He's moving back into the Indian world.

I said, “Having a conversation with that energy, maybe it will let you go enough to where you can deal with what's bothering you, so that you don't have to use it anymore.” Because using alcohol as a Native person is abusing sacred medicine, and that a terrible accusation. That's like telling a Christian that they're blaspheming against Christ.
Using alcohol as a Native person is abusing sacred medicine, and that a terrible accusation. That's like telling a Christian that they're blaspheming against Christ.


So I said, “Now you need to make amends to the spirit of alcohol. Because, as a Native person, it knows that you know better.” So now it's shifted the situation into a whole other place—and if nothing else, it’s weird enough to be interesting.
 
DK: It sure is!
ED: He said, “Are you kidding?” I said, “You don't have to take my word, just do it and see what happens.” By doing these things, he started reconnecting himself to himself, and at the same time working on the addiction, so that now he’s lost his thirst for alcohol. Because the spirit of alcohol is also letting him go in that relationship. It’s like divorce. If you want to divorce somebody, you don't just walk away. You've got to go through a process. Here you've been married to this medicine, and now you just want to walk away. That's bad manners. It’s an interesting way of looking at things and it changes the way you think.
DK: It reminds me of motivational interviewing, the way you kind of let him come to his own insights in his own time, but prompt him and give him tools along the way.
ED: During this process, their dreams get really intense to where the spirit of alcohol actually shows up, and it’s really terrifying for people. But now they're dealing with the real issue.
DK: Do you incorporate the Twelve-Step programs in with your substance abuse work?
ED: Oh, sure, yes, if that's working for them. It says right there in the Twelve Steps that you need to make amends. So make amends to the medicine. AA founder Bill W. developed the Twelve Steps in part through a conversation with Jung, where he basically told him exactly what I'm telling you—that this is an energy, this is a spirit, and you're in a state of possession. You can look at the letter Jung wrote online. He also consulted with Native elders in developing the Twelve Steps. You can see the influence, but he westernized it so that it's more palatable.
DK: He made it more Christian-based.
ED: But if you look into the subtext, you can see Jung’s influence and that of the Native elders. A lot of these elders were present at his funeral. 
DK: So what I’m hearing is, you use whatever works.
ED: Yes, exactly. 

Leave Your Westernese at the Teepee Door

DK: What do you recommend for practitioners who want to be culturally competent with Native American clients?
ED: Well, I’ve trained quite a few interns over the span of my career and I basically let them dive into the work and then try to help move them away from the thinking function. For example, in supervision they'll come in with little yellow tablets ready to take notes. And I'll say stupid stuff like, “What's that for? You’re really going to take notes?” And then I try to deconstruct their thinking so that they can start moving down into their heart. I also ask them if they’re dreaming, and if their patients are dreaming, and basically immerse them into the Native worldview.

Of course, that can be really frightening.
I've had interns almost lose it because they started hallucinating and seeing stuff when they were awake.
I've had interns almost lose it because they started hallucinating and seeing stuff when they were awake. I had to really contain that process for them, because it gets really scary once you start moving out of your Western-thinking paradigm. It’s foreign to the ego and the ego can start to disintegrate without proper containment.

I had a Jewish intern, actually, who was pretty non-identified with his Jewish culture, not practicing or anything. He was irreverent and would do things like bring pork to potlucks and laugh about it. He thought all this spirit stuff was crap.

One day he came to a Native ceremony. It was an all night ceremony and there happened to be a fire at the ceremony, and prayer and singing. And that night in the fire he said he saw God. It totally transformed him. He became ultra-Jewish, and even started rabbinical studies. It was a really interesting metamorphosis for him, like regaining his soul. Him being completely present to who he is allows him to be present for that Native person.

In another instance, a Korean woman from a very prestigious school was working with us, and we were going to have an all-night ceremony again. She was really worried that she might run into her clients at the ceremony and was struggling with the whole ethics side of things. I said, “Well, who knows?” I try not to contain it too much, because the ego needs to experience some unsettling.

So she decided to go, and she's sitting there in the teepee all night, and who walks in but the one family that she's been working with that's really difficult. They sit right next to her and since she doesn't know anything about the ceremony, they start helping her with the ceremony. It was such a tremendous transformation for her, and a tremendous validation for the family, because she was praying their way now. It really brought their relationship and the treatment to a whole new level.
DK: It also turns the “expert” role on its head. We psychologists like to be experts. 
ED: It took away that thinking function and at the end of it she was so grateful. Their work progressed quickly after that.
DK: So getting beyond thinking, beyond the ego, is a big part of your work.
ED: Yeah. Absolutely. Since the ego's in complete control and knows everything, you can't go into other cultures, because then you’re just bringing your Westernese with you. But if you're a little big fragmented, maybe you'll be open to something else.
DK: So you're modeling that for them.
ED: I try. A lot of times I say stupid stuff to patients also, to confuse the ego.
DK: I say stupid stuff all the time, too! I didn’t realize it served such a therapeutic purpose. Well thank you so much for taking the time to share your wisdom with us today. 
ED: It was my pleasure, thank you.

Listening as Meditation

In 1975, Herbert Benson of Harvard University wrote that to achieve a “relaxation response” you only need four ingredients. These included (a) a quiet place, (b) a comfortable position, (c) a mental device, and (d) a passive attitude. Benson’s relaxation response was, of course, roughly equivalent to the meditative mental state. His work presaged the mindfulness movement in psychotherapy. He identified a psychological place of exploration, discovery, and acceptance. His research linked the relaxation response to a variety of physiological and psychological benefits.

Carl Rogers and his daughter Natalie have often lamented that modern American therapists simply don’t understand person-centered counseling. As I watch students and professional therapists all-too-often engaging in premature problem-solving with clients, it’s easy to agree with Carl and Natalie. No one values listening much; it’s too slow and plodding for our caffeinated culture. Therapists wish to be helpful. Clients wish for solutions. And together they conspire to avoid whatever might lurk beneath the surface. At my present institution we even have a one-session group counseling experience called, “Feel Better Fast.” Perhaps what’s most amazing is that these explicit efforts to embrace and engage in the quick-fix are sometimes effective. This may be nothing more than a testimonial to the power of expectation and placebo.

But it’s equally likely that the help that happens comes primarily from two valid sources: First, clients may perceive their therapists as genuine and sincere. This is perhaps a small measure of Rogers’s person-centered congruence communicated through a fog of directive or solution-focused problem-solving. Second, some clients show up for therapy ready to learn. This is an example of Prochaska’s readiness to change—a pleasant situation wherein whatever stray skill that happens to graze the client’s psyche may be adopted, adapted, and applied, with some success, to the client’s particular life or problem. Obviously there are some good skills out there (including mindfulness meditation) and, as Otto Fenichel might have said—referring to psychoanalytic interpretations—timing is nearly everything.

Instead of indiscriminately engaging in procedures or firing off solutions, I wish that students and young professionals could step back and experience listening as meditation. I wish they could follow Benson’s advice and get comfortable, breathe deeply, and let their clients’ words into a quiet space. And while continuing to breathe, I wish for them to explore, discover, and accept what their clients are thinking, feeling, and experiencing.

Sometimes, when listening to therapy recordings with students I ask questions like:

  • Do you hear a value rising up in your client’s voice? Just listen and accept it and reflect it back.
  • Do you sense that your client is expressing perhaps a taste of bitterness mixed with unhappiness? If so, help your client hear and understand her or his own emotional state.
  • I wonder if you could tune into the call of the psychodynamic here; let the repeating interpersonal relationship patterns become clear; and then, collaboratively explore and discover with the client the nature, cost, and alternatives to these patterns, keeping your mutual and evidence-based goals in mind.
  • Do you notice in your client’s words the scent of the somatic or the spiritual? That’s okay, just notice it and then try to be the mirror that enables your client to see it right along with you.
Lately, the main message I’ve been trying to give my students, my supervisees, and myself is to integrate Benson’s and Rogers’s perspectives and use listening as meditation. The point is to let what the client says become the central focal point (Benson’s mental device). This is then followed with mindful acceptance and empathy, leading to a collaborative and interactive search for meaning or solutions or insight or behavioral prescriptions or cognitive reframing. And it ends with my conclusion that one of the coolest things about listening as meditation is that you can do it using virtually any theoretical perspective because excellence in the art of listening is the foundation that virtually all excellent therapists share.

Love Sense: The Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships

Editor's Note: The following is adapted from Sue Johnson's latest book, Love Sense: The Revolutionary New Science of Romantic Relationships (Little, Brown and Company, 2013).

The Rhythm of Disconnection and Reconnection

A love relationship is never static; it ebbs and flows. If we want love to last, we have to grasp this fact and get used to paying attention to and readjusting our level of emotional engagement.

“I just assumed that once you are married, you both know you are partners and you can kind of relax and take the relationship for granted,” Jeremy tells Harriet. “You can focus on the big picture. You know I love you. We aren’t mean to each other. I haven’t been unfaithful to you or anything like that. Can’t you just roll with the less romantic, less touchy-feely times?” Harriet sits up straight in her chair and declares, “No, Jeremy. I can’t. Not anymore.”

“Well, that is just very immature, then,” Jeremy replies.

He is right in a way. In a good relationship, where we feel basically secure, we can fill in the blanks left by our partner’s occasional emotional absence. We can substitute positive feelings from past encounters and accept that there may be legitimate reasons for the inattention. But only some of the time, and only if we know we can reconnect if we really need to.

Loving is a process that constantly moves from harmony to disharmony, from mutual attunement and responsiveness to misattunement and disconnection—and back again. But to really understand what happens, we have to zoom down into these interactions and atomize them. Think of Georges Seurat’s paintings: when we move in really close, we realize that the vast scenes are composed of thousands and thousands of little dots. Researchers are doing the same with love relationships. By freeze-framing videos of romantic partners talking or arguing, and of babies playing with a parent, they are discovering how love, without our being aware, is shaped, for better or worse, in micromoments and micromoves of connection and disconnection.

“Up close, this is what love looks like: I look at you with my eyes wide open, trying to capture your glance, and you catch my expression, widen your eyes, and take my arm.” Alternatively, you ignore my bid for your attention, continue talking about your thoughts, and I turn away. In the next step, we resynchronize and reconnect. I turn back to you and lean forward and touch your arm; this time, you get my cue and turn toward me, smile, and ask me how I am. This tiny, fleeting moment of repair brings a rush of positive emotion. Moments of meeting are mutually delightful. (I always think that if we stopped and verbalized our innermost thoughts at this point, we would say something like “Oh, there you are” or even “Ah, here we are together.”)

It’s important to emphasize that misattunement is not a sign of lack of love or commitment. It is inevitable and normal; in fact, it is startlingly common. Ed Tronick of Harvard Medical School, who has spent years absorbed in monitoring the interactions between mother and child, finds that even happily bonded mothers and infants miss each other’s signals fully 70 percent of the time. Adults miss their partner’s cues most of the time, too! We all send unclear signals and misread cues. We become distracted, we suddenly shift our level of emotional intensity and leave our partner behind, or we simply overload each other with too many signals and messages. Only in the movies does one poignant gaze predictably follow another and one small touch always elicit an exquisitely timed gesture in return. We are sorely mistaken if we believe that love is about always being in tune.

What matters is if we can repair tiny moments of misattunement and come back into harmony. Bonding is an eternal process of renewal. “Relationship stability depends not on healing huge rifts but on mending the constant small tears.” Indeed, says John Gottman of the University of Washington, what distinguishes master couples, the term he gives successful pairs, is not the ability to avoid fights but the ability to repair routine disconnections.

We learn about mini-misattunement and repair in our earliest interactions. Tronick and his team have detailed what happens by analyzing videos of infants and their mothers playing a game of peekaboo that grows gradually more intense. At first the infant is happy, but as the game builds, he becomes overstimulated and turns away and sucks his thumb. Mom, intent on playing, misses this cue, and loudly cries “boo” again. The baby looks down with no expression. He shuts down to avoid her signals, which are suddenly too fast and too strong for him.

There are two basic scenarios for what happens next, one positive, the other negative. In the first, Mom picks up the cue that her child is overwhelmed, and she goes quiet. She tunes in to his emotional expression. She waits until he looks up and smiles at him very slowly, and then more invitingly, lifting her eyebrows and opening her eyes. Then she starts the game again. Misattunement and momentary disconnection shift to renewed attunement and easy synchrony. All it takes is a smile or tender touch.

In the second scenario, Mom ignores or doesn’t get her baby’s signal. She moves in faster and closer, insisting her child stay engaged with her. He continues to turn away, and the mother reaches out and pushes his face back toward her. The infant closes his eyes and erupts in agitated wails. The mother, annoyed, now turns away. This is misattunement with no repair, what Tronick calls “interactive failure.” Both mother and infant feel disconnected and emotionally upset.

Over time, thousands of these micromoves accumulate until they coalesce into a pattern typical of secure or insecure bonding. Tronick notes that at just seven months of age, infants with the most positive, attuned mothers express the most joy and positive emotion, while those with the most disengaged moms show the greatest amount of crying and other protest behaviors. Those with the most intrusive moms look away the most. We learn in these earliest exchanges with our loved ones whether people are likely to respond to our cues and just how correctable moments of misattunement are.

Those of us who wind up securely attached have learned that momentary disconnection is tolerable rather than catastrophic and that another person will be there to help us regain our emotional balance and reconnect. Those who become anxiously attached have been taught a different lesson: that we cannot rely on another person to respond and reconnect, and so momentary disconnection is always potentially calamitous. Those who become avoidant have absorbed a still harsher lesson: that no one will come when needed no matter what we do, so it’s better not to bother trying to connect at all.

We carry these lessons forward into adulthood, where they color our romantic relationships. “The past is never dead,” wrote novelist William Faulkner. “It’s not even past.” Psychologist Jessica Salvatore, along with her colleagues at the University of Minnesota, studied the romantic relationships of 73 young adult men and women. They had all been enrolled since birth in a longitudinal study of attachment, and their relationship with their mother had been assessed when they were between twelve and eighteen months old. They were invited to the lab with their romantic partner, where they were interviewed separately. Then they were instructed to discuss a key conflict between them for ten minutes and then talk about areas where they were in agreement for another four “cool down” minutes.

Researchers videotaped these talks and observed how well the 73 adults could let go of their conflict and shift out of a negative emotional tone. Some made the switch quickly and easily; others persisted in talking about the conflict and brought up new issues; still others refused to talk at all. Those who were good at cool down were generally happier in their relationship, and so was their partner. And, as we might expect, those who had been rated securely attached as babies generally moved out of the conflict discussion most successfully.

But is a person’s own attachment history the key predictor of stability in a romantic relationship? Or is a partner’s ability to resolve conflict also a major factor? Salvatore assessed the 73 subjects two years later and found that even among those who had histories marked by insecurity, their romantic relationship was more likely to have endured if their partner was able to recover well from an argument and help them transition into a positive conversation.

I call this the buffer, balance, bounce effect. A more secure partner buffers your fears and helps you regain your emotional balance so you can reconnect. Then together, you both bounce back from separation distress, distance, and conflict. “We are never so secure that we do not need our partner’s help in readjusting the emotional music in our attachment dance.” Relationship distress and repair are always a two-person affair; a dance is never defined by just one person.

Some of us, however, need more structured help in finding our way back to emotional harmony. Drawing from my discoveries in thirty years of practice and research and the findings of the new science of love outlined in these pages, I and my colleagues have created a powerful model for repairing relationship bonds, Emotionally Focused Therapy. The only intervention based on attachment, EFT is redefining the field of couple therapy and education. Sixteen studies now validate its success. Couples who have had EFT show overall increased satisfaction with their relationships and in the elements of secure attachment, including intimacy, trust, and forgiveness. Moreover, the more secure emotional bond remains stable years after therapy.

One of our newest and most exciting studies demonstrates through fMRI brain scans that after couples go through EFT and become more secure, holding the hand of their partner actually dampens fear and the pain of an electric shock. Just as predicted by attachment science, contact with a loving, responsive partner is a powerful buffer against danger and threat. When we change our love relationships, we change our brains and change our world.

The science of love allows us to hone our interventions—to be on target and aim high. The goal is to create lasting lifelong bonds that offer safe-haven security to both partners. Recently we have also created a group educational program based on my earlier book Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love that helps couples take all we have learned in decades of research and use it in their own relationship.

Repairing Bonds Moment to Moment

Lasting bonds are all about emotional responsiveness. The core attachment question—“Are you there for me?”— requires a “yes” in response. A secure bond has three basic elements:

  • accessibility—you give me your attention and are emotionally open to what I am saying;
  • responsiveness—you accept my needs and fears and offer comfort and caring; and
  • engagement—you are emotionally present, absorbed, and involved with me.

When these elements are missing and alienation and disconnection take over, renewing a bond that is truly coming undone is essentially a two-step process. First, partners have to help each other slow down and contain the circular dance that keeps them emotionally off balance and hypervigilant for signs of threat or loss. Relationships begin to improve when partners can stop these runaway cycles that create emotional starvation and attachment panic.

To curb these demand-withdraw cycles, we first need to recognize that they are cycles. We get caught up in focusing on our partner’s actions and forget that we are players, too. We have to realize that we are in a feedback loop that we both contribute to. When we see that this is a dance we do together, we can stop our automatic, blaming, “You always step on my foot” response. This allows us to see the power and momentum of the dance and how we are both controlled and freaked out by it.

Prue accuses Larry of being hypercritical. “He’s always complaining about whatever I do—how I cook, how I make love. I feel picked on all the time. It’s devastating.” Larry argues that Prue always refuses to talk seriously about any problems they’re having. “She just goes distant. I can’t find her,” he says. In our sessions, they’ve now realized that they are prisoners of a pattern they call “the Pit.” “I encourage clients to give a name to their pattern to help them see it and begin to recognize that the pattern, not the partner, is the enemy.” They have both unwittingly created this enemy that is taking over their relationship, and they must work together to wrest their relationship from its clutches.

Now we can explore the triggers and emotions that shape the pattern. Prue and Larry recount a specific incident when they fell into the Pit, and we bring it into high focus and play it in slow motion, scrutinizing each detail, until its impact on each partner and their bond is clear. They were on holiday in Europe after a period when Prue had been away taking care of her dying aunt and Larry had resented her absence. They were in a station heading to catch a train when Larry suddenly realized that it had begun moving. Afraid they would miss it, he jumped on the step and yelled to Prue, who was carrying a coffee cup, “Run.” Larry shouted to the conductor to slow down and held his hand out to Prue, but she froze. Finally, she grasped his hand and struggled onto the train, out of breath. Larry turned to her and said, “You are so damn slow.” Shocked and hurt, she refused to speak to him the rest of the journey. Inside, she vacillated between rage at Larry’s reprimands and dread that she really is too “slow” and too flawed for him to love. She shut him out and, preoccupied with her own fears of inadequacy, began a downward spiral into depression.

I turn to Larry and we go over and over this incident moment by moment and tune in to the emotions he was feeling then and how they reflect his overall feeling about Prue and their relationship. He says he feels “agitated” when she does not keep up with him on hikes. He notes she doesn’t take her arthritis medication consistently. “I get anxious when she does not stay with me. I can’t count on her.” He recalls the image of “distance” that flooded him when the train started to move off and Prue froze. “She wasn’t running, working to be with me,” he says. He felt panicked. Larry then begins to talk about his sense of isolation when Prue stayed with her aunt for three months and his habit of dismissing, or “pushing down,” this frequent feeling. Sometimes he can’t, though, and it rises up and engulfs him, and he winds up being angry and sarcastic. He begins weeping as he realizes just how much he needs her and is afraid that she will remain “unavailable.” The slide into the Pit begins with attachment terror.

For Prue, too, the terror that freezes her and turns her away from Larry is a hopeless certainty that she is flawed and worthless, so rejection is certain. As they recognize and find their balance in these emotional moments, they can see the drama of distress as it occurs in their everyday life and then help each other halt its momentum. They can limit the extent of the rift between them and find a secure base. The next night, Larry lashes out, and Prue responds, “Is this a panic moment for you? I am not going to freeze up here, and I want you to slow down.” Each partner begins to see the other in a new light: Prue sees Larry as afraid rather than judgmental and aggressive, and he sees her as protecting herself from rejection rather than simply abandoning him and “sulking.”

Recent research by psychologist Shiri Cohen and her colleagues at Harvard Medical School confirms that partners do not suddenly have to become masters of empathy or emotional gymnasts in this kind of process. Partners, especially women, really respond to signs that their loved one is trying to tune in and actually cares about their feelings. This, in and of itself, creates a new safety zone where partners can begin to expand their dance steps and take risks with each other. New ways of dealing with emotion shape new steps in the dance, which in turn shape new chances for reattunement and repair. But this ability to keep miscues and missteps in check is not enough.

The second step in renewing bonds is much harder but more significant. This is when we move into powerful positive interactions and actually reach for each other. Specifically, withdrawn partners have to open up and engage on an emotional level, and blaming partners have to risk asking for what they need from a place of vulnerability. Partners have to tune in to the bonding channel and stay there. They find this process risky, but if they follow it through, their relationship becomes flooded with positive emotion and ascends to a whole new level. This process is not only a corrective move that kick-starts trust but also, for many, a transforming and liberating emotional experience.

These experiences are deeply emotional; partners each reach for the other in a simple and coherent way that pulls forth a tender, compassionate response. This begins a new positive bonding cycle, a reach-and-respond sequence that builds a mental model of relationships as a safe haven. It addresses each person’s most basic needs for safety, connection, and comfort. “These kinds of primal emotional moments are so significant that, as with all such “hot” moments, our brain seems to faithfully store them, filing them in our neural networks as the protocol for how to be close to others.” Our follow-up studies of EFT couples show that their ability to stay with and shape these emotional moments is the best predictor of stable relationship repair and satisfaction years later.

So what actually happens in these exchanges—I call them Hold Me Tight conversations—when real connection begins to form and a couple moves from antagonism into harmony? Until recently we have not known what specific responses in intimate exchanges make for tender loving bonds between adults. We have had, to quote psychologists Linda Roberts and Danielle Greenberg of the University of Wisconsin, “a typology of conflict . . . but no road maps for positive intimate behavior.” Years of watching couples reconnect in a therapy that deliberately builds bonds can offer us just this.

In Hold Me Tight conversations, couples have to handle a series of mini-tasks. Partners, whether pursuing and blaming or defending and withdrawing, attempt to:

  • Tune in to and stay with their own softer emotions and hold on to the hope of potential connection with the loved one.

John: “I did snap at you. But when I look inside, it’s that I find it worrying, upsetting that you go out to those clubs with your girlfriends. It somehow messes me up. It’s hard to tell you this. I am not used to talking about this kind of stuff.”

  • Regulate their emotions so they can look out at the other person with some openness and curiosity and show willingness to listen to incoming cues. They are not flooded or trying to shut down and stay numb.

John: “I feel a little silly, kind of wide open saying this. But there it is. It doesn’t work to deny it and say nothing. Then we get farther apart. Can you hear me? What do you think?” His wife, Kim, comes and hugs him.

  • Turn their emotions into clear, specific signals. Messages are not conflicted or garbled. Clear communication flows from a clear inner sense of feared danger and longed-for safety.

John: “I know I sometimes go off about you being tired after coming home late or the money you spend. But that is not it. Those are side issues. It reminds me of past relationships. I guess I am really sensitive here. I really find it difficult. It scares me. I wanted to run after you and say, ‘Don’t go.’ It’s like you are choosing them and the club scene over me, over us. That is how it feels.” His eyes widen, showing how anxious he is.

  • Tolerate fears of the other’s response enough to stay engaged and give the other a chance to respond.

John: “You aren’t saying anything. Are you mad now? I want us to talk about this kind of stuff when I get unsure of us and not push things under the rug. I want to hear how you feel right now.” Kim tells him she is confused because she feels loyal to her friends but that his feelings are important.

  • Explicitly state needs. To do this they have to recognize and accept their attachment needs.

John: “I want to know you are committed to us, to me. I want to feel like you are my partner and that nothing is more important than that. I need that reassurance that my needs matter. Then I can keep taking risks here. I am out on a limb otherwise.”

  • Hear and accept the needs of the other. Respond to these needs with empathy and honesty.

John: “I know I have been kind of controlling in the past. It’s a bit hard to hear you talk about it, but I know you need to make choices, and you have fun with your friends. I am not giving orders here. I want to know if we can work this out together.”

  • React to the other’s response, even if it is not what is hoped for, in a way that is relatively balanced and, especially if it is what is hoped for, with increased trust and positive emotion.

John: “Well, you have tickets for the concert, so I guess you will go. I can handle that. I hadn’t really shared with you openly about this. It helps if I feel included somehow, if you tell me about it afterward. And I appreciate that you are listening and telling me that you can consider how I feel about this.” Kim tells him she still feels scared to put herself in his hands completely. Her nights out are her statement that she is still holding on to her boundaries and showing she can stand up to him. But she hears his fears. She tells him that she does not flirt or drink too much on her outings, and she reminds him that she is going out less often now.

  • Explore and take into account the partner’s reality and make sense of, rather than dismiss, his or her response.

John: “I don’t want to tell you what to do. I know this upsets you. You have good reasons for this. I get that you are not trying to hurt me. I don’t want you to feel dictated to. I just get anxious about this stuff.” He reaches out for her, and she turns to him and holds him.

When this conversation goes off track, John—and hopefully Kim—can bring it back and stay with the main emotional message, the need to connect. For example, if John gets caught up ranting about the “seedy” clubs she visits, she is able to stay calm and soothe him by telling him that she is concerned that he worries about this, and this brings him back to talking about his fears. Both partners help each other keep their emotional balance and stay in the deeper emotion and bonding channel. John is attempting to repair his sense of disconnection, and he does it by exploring his own emotions and engaging with Kim. In the past he had tried criticizing his lover’s taste in friends or making deals about how many times each could go out without the other every month. Now he goes to the core dialogue in an attachment relationship, the one that matters most, where the question “Are you there for me?” is palpable. He shares and asks for her emotional support, for her help in dealing with his attachment fears.

This is very different from the way attempts at connection show up in distressed relationships and even in routine interactions in relatively happy relationships. We often bypass the attachment emotions and messages. We do not say what we need. Our signals to our loved one remain hidden, general, and ambiguous. Hal tells Lulu, “I don’t think I have ever asked you for affection. It’s not what I do. When you just give it, everything is fine. But when you get depressed . . . So then I say, ‘Want to watch a movie?’ or ‘You should go for a walk and cheer up.’ But you turn away, and in two seconds flat I am enraged. In my head, I am still thinking it’s about the movie or you not taking care of yourself. Not that you have gone missing on me.” When Hal can express his sense of loss at Lulu’s withdrawal, they can deal with it and her bout of depression differently—that is, in a way that leaves them more connected rather than less.

The most intense and attachment-focused Hold Me Tight conversations build tangible safety and connection, even in secure, happy relationships. They can occur at times when partners do not feel disconnected but simply want more intense intimacy. Lulu opens up one night and tells Hal of a moment after their lovemaking when she felt herself “sinking into a certain soft place where we just belong and belong and there is no more fear of risking.” He responds and shares his similar feelings. Each time these lovers share their “soft places” and their need for each other and respond with empathy and care, they offer their loved one reassurance that he or she is the chosen, irreplaceable one, and the bond between them deepens.

Anita Barrows on Love, Poetry and Autism

I Have My Very Troubled Childhood to Thank for This Career

Deb Kory: You are a long-time psychotherapist, a well-known poet, social activist and autism specialist. In the interest of full disclosure, I should also mention that you are a former teacher of mine at the Wright Institute in Berkeley, you chaired my dissertation, and are now my friend as well.
Anita Barrows: Indeed.
DK: As a newly licensed therapist who came to the field with a background in journalism and political activism, I’m exploring for myself how to not get compartmentalized in my role as a therapist and to feel integrated in and out of the therapy office.
I wanted to interview you for Psychotherapy.net in large part because you embody many identities. I think most people know you as a poet and a translator of, among others, poet Rainer Maria Rilke’s work, along with your co-translator, Joanna Macy, the environmental activist and Buddhist scholar. Were you a poet before you became a therapist?
AB: Long before. I was a poet from the time I was about six years old. In fact, through my childhood and up through my years in college, there was nothing else I ever thought about doing. Writing poetry was really it. And I was always interested in politics. I was lucky enough to be a teenager in the 1960s and my political identity was also really strong for me at that point, as I was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-Vietnam War movement.
But writing was really the only thing I thought I would ever do. After I got out of college and I realized that I had to do something to make a living, I began working with the Poets in the Schools program. I was also working with a radical law students group, placing law students in internships with radical lawyers like the lawyers for Cesar Chavez and the Black Panthers.
DK: But you yourself were not involved in law.
AB: I wasn’t, but I considered it at that time because it had become clear that I couldn’t earn a living writing poetry. I had studied French, Italian, Latin and German in college and did a Masters at Boston University in English literature and creative writing, and was working as a translator when I enrolled in a doctoral program in comparative literature.
DK: So language is a real passion for you.
AB: I just love language.
DK: Language, poetry, radical politics and law—how did you end up becoming a therapist?
AB: I think I have to thank my very, very troubled childhood for this career.
DK: Not uncommon for us therapists.
AB: Not at all. I had a mother who was chronically depressed and a father who was violent, and I did everything I could to escape that household, mostly adopting myself out to the families of friends. I was pretty good at establishing relationships outside of my home, and wrote poetry from an early age, which helped me process some of the pain I was going through, but when I had my own first child, it came back to haunt me.
I essentially had a breakdown. It ended up being diagnosed as autoimmune thyroid disease, but when I look at it now, I think the thyroid disease was a physical manifestation of what was going on inside me emotionally.
I had read a lot of Jung and was interested in Jung’s approach to literature and symbolism and the collective unconscious, and I was lucky enough to be referred to an extraordinary Jungian therapist, Rosamund Gardner, who died about ten years ago. I was in Jungian analysis with her for more than ten years.
DK: So it was your experience of the transformation that occurred for you in therapy that made you want to become a therapist?
AB: It was, yeah.
DK: I think that’s also a pretty common reason that people end up becoming therapists. My own therapy has influenced me enormously.
AB: Frankly, I don’t know who I would be today if it weren’t for the work I did with Rosamund. I can’t even begin to imagine. I was sort of casting about for some kind of work that felt meaningful, and it didn’t feel like teaching poetry at the university level would be enough, and it really came home to me that therapy can be a deep transformation that can liberate people. I remember Rosamund saying to me at one point, “When you have done this work, you will free your energy.” I was not a very energetic person in my 20s. Now, in my 60s, I’m full of energy.
DK: You’re one of the most energetic people I know!
AB: I think I’m making up for lost time.
During the course of that therapy, I began having dreams—and in Jungian analysis, you do a lot of dream work—and my dreams suggested that I might want to do therapy myself. We had to ferret out what was identification and transference and what was a genuine desire to do this work.
DK: Are you transparent about this backstory with your students?
AB: Very much so. I feel like that kind of transparency can be so helpful—especially in a field where there’s so much fear about revealing that you’ve suffered personally. I’m less likely to reveal it to some colleagues of mine, who seem so tight-lipped and collected.
DK: You imagine that they didn’t have such childhoods? Or is it that they just aren’t open about it?
AB: It’s hard to know, but I can’t imagine that the majority of people who come into this field had a Mary Poppins kind of childhood.

What Happened to the Wounded Healer?

DK: I also had that experience going through graduate training. People were really reluctant to share the fact that they had suffered trauma. And if they did, it was often like, “but I’ve done so much work around it and it’s all resolved now.”
What happened to the “wounded healer”? It’s a powerful framework, in my experience. When therapists are willing to be honest and open and not try to come off as “expertly healed,” it can be extremely transformative. Those moments of genuine, mutual vulnerability can be so helpful in diffusing that sense of shame and isolation that brings so many people into therapy in the first place.
AB: I learned it from Rosamund. She was very open about the pain that she had experienced. It would come up in dreams sometimes where I had sensed something about her childhood, and she was very honest about saying, “Yes, in fact this happened,” or, “No, it wasn’t quite like that, but this was the way it was.” Those were moments when I felt like you really can emerge from traumatic experiences, deep losses, and come out as a person who can have a rich and full life and be able to receive other people’s pain. I say that to my students all the time.
I can’t think of anybody in my education at the Wright Institute, anybody who trained me, who was that open about their experience. In fact, I went through several years while I was a student and then shortly after of not wanting to talk to anybody about my childhood.
I was really afraid that if anybody found out some of the things that had happened to me as a child, they would think, “She can’t possibly be a therapist. Somebody with that kind of childhood turns into a Borderline”—or some other Axis II diagnosis.
So I just didn’t talk about it. I didn’t even tell people I was a poet. At that point I had two books of poems published and had won a $20,000 grant from the National Endowment for the Arts for my poetry. And I didn’t tell anybody.
DK: What were you afraid of?
AB: I was afraid that if I was known as a poet, I would have less legitimacy in their eyes as a therapist. It’s kind of amazing when I think about it now. I remember once I was at a party where there were a lot of Wright Institute people, and somebody who wasn’t from the Wright came up to me and said, “Oh, hi, I’m so-and-so. Who are you and what do you do?” I opened my mouth and started to cry because I felt like my real identity was something I had to hide and that if I had something else that I belonged to, it would take away from people’s beliefs that I could really do therapy.
When I went to take my oral licensing exam, I think it was 1990, I had a recurrent dream for weeks before I took the exam. I’ve always worn a lot of rings on my fingers, and in my dream, I had lost all my rings. It
became really clear that I was afraid that assuming the mantle of psychologist meant that I would lose what was different and kind of quirky and colorful about me, and I’d have to become this straight person.
In fact, these much straighter friends of mine had loaned me clothes to wear at the oral exam. I was going to put my hair in some kind of bun, and I was going to wear this tailored suit and a white shirt. In the end, I gave them all back and said, “I’m just going as myself.” And I passed.

Therapist Identity Disorder

DK: This hits on a fundamental problem I’ve been chewing on. You’ve been licensed for 25 years and have reached a place of integration. I’m just starting out on the path and really want to steer clear of the therapist identity box. I like therapists, I am a therapist, but I kind of got the feeling all through my training that we are expected to keep a really low-profile outside of the office. While we’re given the message that being relational or “intersubjective” is a good way to practice, we’re taught to keep a pretty tight lid on our spontaneity. I heard horror stories of people who would bring their session notes into supervision and just get creamed for any hint of getting too conversational, revealing too much about themselves, whatever. Obviously this depends on the theory of the supervisor, but enough of those kinds of stories were going around to give me the notion that all such events should, in fact, be left out of session notes.
My sense was that we were not really supposed to be in the world, that our job is to stay kind of objectified in our therapist role, and that allowing our wounded selves, our writer or activist selves, our real selves into the room or, worse yet, being seen outside of the room, constituted a great risk of some sort. But what exactly is at risk? Our privacy? The projections of our clients? Our professional legitimacy? A case could be made for these things, but I think the balance is way out of whack.
AB: That’s a really good question. At the beginning of my work as a psychotherapist, I kept my identities pushed very far apart, but as I went along, I started to devote more time to my writing. I created a little study downstairs in my house that I just used for writing, and then began to give more public readings, which I hadn’t done for a period of time. There would be fliers around Berkeley saying I was going to read, and sometimes my patients would show up at my readings.
I remember talking about that with some people who were much straighter psychologists than I was, and they were saying things like, “Well, you really shouldn’t publish if you’re a therapist. And you certainly shouldn’t give readings.” My poetry is not confessional poetry. It’s not like I talk about my father’s abuse or my mother’s depression all that much. But it certainly reveals my politics and my sense of engagement in the world and also facts of my life: I am a single person. I have two daughters. I have a granddaughter. They come into my work in one way or another.
So, short of writing under a pseudonym, which I didn’t want to do, there seemed to be nothing I could do to keep them pushed apart if I wasn’t going to stop writing altogether, which I absolutely realized I couldn’t do. If I go for several months without writing, I just don’t feel like myself. I can’t do it. If I have a core identity, if there’s any one thing that’s my core identity, it’s a poet. And being a psychotherapist is the work I do, and it’s work I love, but it’s not my core identity.
When the first translation of Rilke came out in 1995, the Book of Hours, Joanna Macy, my co-translator, and I did a bunch of public readings for that. It says right there on the flap of the book that I am a poet, a translator, and I work as a clinical psychologist and a professor at the Wright Institute. There it was all laid out. And now when I think about it, it feels so clear to me that my life as a poet informs the work I do as a therapist.
DK: How so?
AB: I think I write poetry to document my sense of engagement with the world in whatever form that takes. It may be a poem about the trees outside my window in the morning or my dog sleeping, or it may be a poem about the children in Palestine or Rwanda. Poetry is the best way I know to make sense of the world. The fact that I write and that I see as a poet is the way I make meaning of things.
In fact, I have a patient in his early 30s who is, among other things, a musician. He’s very attuned to anything artistic, although that’s not what he earns his living at, and he teases me sometimes when I say something, “That’s certainly something a poet would say.” He was referred by someone and googled me and there was all sorts of stuff about me online. These days it’s all out there. If you don’t want to go see a poet, don’t come and see me.
DK: Your clients can self-select.
AB: Exactly.
DK: Do you think having a public identity as a poet and activist has changed your work with clients?
AB: I think it has. I gave a reading some years ago as part of a group of Jewish women who were politically engaged. Grace Paley read, and it was the last time I saw her before she died. Someone came up to me afterward and said, “So, you’re really a clinical psychologist? Are you practicing?” I ended up working with her for several years.

On Love (and Torture)

DK: One thing I have appreciated about your work is that you explicitly acknowledge the importance of love in therapy. When I was in graduate school at the Wright, I remember there was a panel discussion with various clinicians on the faculty, and I asked very pointedly, “How come no one ever talks about love?” It was always “countertransference” or “compassion,” but God forbid you mention love. The responses I got were, “It’s not my job to love clients. I respect them.” Another person joked, “What about hate?” and then proceeded to actually put an article in my mailbox about “hate in the countertransference” and how love was some kind of narcissistic fantasy on the part of the therapist. It was so irritating. I wish I could find the article because I remember the author talking about how it was OK to love the theory, but not our clients.
But I think we are engaged in all manner of love. Therapy can be a profoundly loving experience on both sides, and it can be erotic and romantic and mysterious. Sure, there can also be hate, boredom, “negative countertransference,” but the avoidance of any talk about love is phobic in my opinion.
AB: It’s so true!
DK: How do you conceptualize love in psychotherapy?
AB: Wow. What a wonderful question. I’m really glad to have an opportunity to talk about it. I think it’s the basis of all of it. I really do. I think you can’t do this work without love. And I don’t just mean compassion, I mean really loving somebody.
Of course we all have some patients who are more challenging than others. I have one patient who argues with everything I say, and it can be incredibly frustrating, but if I didn’t underneath it all love that patient, I wouldn’t be able to continue doing the work. And I think you’re absolutely right, people in the field are terrified of it.
One of the arguments made by certain psychologists in the APA who justified “enhanced interrogation techniques”—AKA torture—at places like Guantanamo, was that they don’t consider psychology to be a healing profession. For them it’s a profession where one investigates the workings of the human mind and analyzes them. Therefore, one can investigate the workings of the human mind in situations of interrogation. I have a lot of trouble with that on many different levels.
DK: As you know, I wrote my dissertation about the central role psychologists played in the creation of the torture program used under the Bush Administration. Psychologists were given access to the highest levels of power during the “War on Terror,” and they turned out to be very corruptible. One of my conclusions was that this desire on the part of certain elements of the psychology profession to be legitimated through power and “hard science” is fundamentally at odds with the healing, nurturing, soft nature of this work.
AB: Yes, I think there’s a fear of being soft and compassionate and nurturing and sort of what’s traditionally thought of as feminine or maternal. There’s a desire to be taken seriously in this profession, to be seen as a serious science. The insurance companies are also setting the stage for this, with their insistence on quantifiable evidence and “empirically validated” treatments. I’m not anti-science—I love science, but we shouldn’t value it at the expense of love.
I talk to my students about love all the time. They will come to me sometimes very sheepishly and admit that they really love a particular patient of theirs. I’m not talking about them coming to me and saying, “I really want to go to bed with this person,” or, “I’m going to ask him out for coffee as soon as the therapy is over.” We are so reductionist in this culture. It’s a reflection of the incredible lack of imagination that we have reduced the word love to wanting to fuck.
DK: Sing it, sister!
AB: That love wouldn’t be a component of transformation is just unimaginable to me. I think it has to be. In my own therapy with Rosamund, there was a moment that still brings tears to my eyes when I think about it. I was very, very ravaged in the first year that I was seeing her. I had an infant. I had a bad marriage, and I felt really overwhelmed. All of my own mother’s incapacity to care for me flooded back to me and made me terribly afraid that I couldn’t care for my child, my daughter.
There was one day where I didn’t know if I should be hospitalized or locked up or what, but I just felt unable to go on. I hadn’t slept in days, weeks, not just because my baby was waking up at night, but because I was really a wreck. So I called Rosamund on a Friday, and she said, “Come and see me tomorrow morning.” She didn’t see people on Saturday mornings, but I think she could hear how ravaged I was feeling. So I went to see her the next morning, and I was still just exhausted because I hadn’t slept.
And she said, “Why don’t you just lie down on my couch? I have some paperwork to do. We don’t need to talk. There’s really nothing to talk about right now. Just lie down on my couch and see if you can rest a little.” So I lay down, and she covered me with a blanket, and she stayed in the room and did some paperwork or whatever—I don’t know what she did, but I fell asleep. I napped for maybe two, two-and-a-half hours. When I woke up, she was still there in the room, and I was able to go home and feel better. That was a real turning point.

Two Souls Speaking To Each Other

DK: That’s such a profoundly loving gesture. A kind of accompaniment, a being with without having to talk or engage.
AB: It was just that. I felt sheltered and contained and held, and I hadn’t had that in my childhood from my mother—ever probably. Rosamund knew that. We didn’t need to speak about it. There didn’t need to be interpretation. At that moment I just needed some holding, and I knew it came from love. I was then able to go home and take care of my baby.
DK: I can imagine in the hands of another therapist you might have been 5150’d.
AB: I had actually called her the previous day and said, “I think I need to be hospitalized. I am so profoundly depressed—beyond depressed, agitated. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” Her response was wonderful. She immediately asked, “Who’s going to pick up your daughter from daycare?” And I said, “Well, I am. I actually need to leave to pick her up in a few minutes.” And she said, “You’re far too sane to be hospitalized.” And that was that.
Love means suffering. I say to my students all the time, “You’re going to suffer from this work—if it goes badly, if someone commits suicide or gets ill and dies.” One of my patients died a few years ago. I hadn’t seen her for a few years, and I knew that she was somebody who had a heart condition, but she wasn’t much older than I am. And when I found out just by chance that she had died, I suffered, and there was really no place for my grief. I couldn’t call her family. I had never met any of them.
DK: Because there’s confidentiality after death.
AB: I didn’t even know if they knew that I was her therapist and I couldn’t legally get in touch with them. So I just had to hold it myself. Things like that happen and we’re not automatons, we’re not computers. We’re human beings.
I had one kid whom I saw for 12 years. She came to me when she was five and I was working at Children’s Hospital in Oakland, CA. She was a very intelligent, exceptional child with Asperger’s syndrome.
A year after I started working with her, her mother was diagnosed with a very serious cancer, and she hung in there for another four years, but then she died. So I saw this child from the time she was five through the time she graduated from high school and was getting ready to go away to college, and we were very, very close.
In one of our termination sessions she said, “I still can’t stand it that the person that I feel closest to in the world is my therapist. It just doesn’t feel right. It should be a friend. I should have a friend or a boyfriend or a girlfriend or somebody who’s the person I’m closest to. It shouldn’t be you.” And then she said, “It’s such a weird thing anyway, this whole therapy thing. I sort of wish you had been somebody else in my life.”
So we talked about how, if I had been her next-door neighbor or her auntie or a friend of the family, we probably wouldn’t have been able to see each other regularly. For awhile I was seeing her three times a week, then twice a week for years, and then it became once a week as we were winding down. It never would have been that regular, and it wouldn’t have been just the two of us in the room. Maybe I could’ve taken her out to the movies, but it would’ve been a totally different kind of relationship.
DK: Your attention would have been divided, for one.
AB: Exactly. So she said, “Okay. I get it. In this room, it didn’t really matter that I was your patient and you were my therapist. And it didn’t really matter that, when I met you, I was five and you were 38. And it didn’t really matter that I was diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome and you weren’t. In this room, we were just two souls speaking to each other.” And I thought, “wow.”
DK: Wow.
AB: That, to me, is the work. Personally, I would so much rather see therapy considered a spiritual discipline than a scientific discipline, because I think that’s really where it is. That’s really where the work happens.
DK: I would agree. She was so articulate about naming the paradox of the therapy relationship. It really is a strange relationship. But at it’s best it’s a sacred relationship. When it works, it really works, and there’s no mistake about it. Unfortunately our culture doesn’t provide many opportunities for the kind of depth and closeness that we get in a good therapy relationship.
AB: And it’s simply not quantifiable. How do you quantify a child who begins at five with Asperger’s Syndrome, never talking to any other children in the school? Then her mother gets sick when she’s six and dies when she’s ten. How do you quantify whether that child got better or not? She says “hello” three times out of five? She makes eye contact seven times out of nine? When I was on insurance panels, those were the kinds of ways I had to report progress.
Yet when she was able to sit there and say what she said, I knew that this child had what she needed to go on with her life.

Autism

DK: This would be a good time to switch over and talk about your work with kids and with autism. I know you’ve always loved kids and been interested in treating kids, but how did you end up being interested in autism?
AB: Well, I started out doing languages and literature, and when I started preparing for graduate work in psychology, I worked with Dan Slobin and Susan Ervin-Tripp, both well-known in the world of child language development. I got very interested in how language develops and how skewed language can develop in some people, including people with autism. Then when I got to the Wright Institute, I joined a study at the Child Development Center at Children’s Hospital in Oakland where, over a period of 18 months, kids with autism were being studied. Half were on a particular medication that was supposed to enhance their social awareness, and half of them weren’t, but it was a double-blind study, so we didn’t know which kids we were working with. I was just fascinated with those kids.
This was 1980, and all of a sudden there was a burgeoning of autistic children, and the director of the Child Development Center asked me if I would be interested in setting up an autism clinic as part of my practicum. I of course said yes, and over that year worked with people on developing diagnostic criteria, and then the following year I did therapy with some kids, including the child I just mentioned. The Interpersonal World of the Infant by Daniel Stern had just come out and I ended up writing my dissertation about Asperger’s Syndrome.
If I dig a bit deeper, though, I think the reason I got involved in autism was my inability all throughout my childhood to reach my mother. She wasn’t autistic, and I wasn’t either, but there was a huge barrier, a huge wall between us.
DK: You felt like you were in a kind of autistic bubble?
AB: Yes. It took me a while to really understand that that was why I was so compelled by it.
The more superficial level was my interest in language development, but looking back, there were eight students involved in that research study, and I’m the only one who wound up seeing autistic kids all through my career. I was drawn to figuring out who is reachable and who is unreachable and how do we find each other as human beings?
DK: So you became an autism specialist.
AB: What’s happened in my practice as time has gone on is that I see children and also adults on the spectrum, mostly on the higher-functioning end, because that’s what the kind of therapy I do can treat. And the adults I see who have autism must have the capacity to take in the kind of weekly, deeply interpersonal therapy that I do. But I also see children and adults who are not on the spectrum and who are coming to explore developmental existential issues in their lives.
DK: Let’s back up for a second. What exactly is autism?
AB: The standard scientific definition is that it’s an impairment involving the child’s cognition, language, and often the child’s intelligence. At the very high-functioning end, I’ve had autistic kids with IQs in the 140s, so intelligence doesn’t always have to be impaired. I haven’t seen a recent statistic, but it used to be that 3/4 of kids diagnosed with autism were also diagnosed with at least mild mental retardation. But some of them, who used to be diagnosed with Asperger’s until the DSM-V got rid of that diagnosis in favor of “Autism Spectrum Disorder,” can be extremely intelligent.
It is essentially a pervasive developmental disability that affects the child’s capacity to function in society. Autism means “in the self,” and so the child has a hard time making attachments. Daniel Stern studied attunement and how in a normal caretaker-infant pair, the caretaker—mother, father, grandmother, whoever it happens to be—attunes to that child incredibly frequently, many, many times a minute in various ways. The baby shifts a little, so the caretaker shifts a little. The baby gets excited about something, and the mother’s voice will mimic that excitement. Generally those kinds of attunements are done cross-modally—so it’s not like the baby flaps her hands, and the mother flaps her hands. Instead he baby will flap her hands, and the mother will say, “Oh, you love these scrambled eggs!” That kind of thing.
But with autistic children, it’s much harder for them to take in information cross-modally, so they don’t feel the parent’s attunement. They don’t get attuned to. And it’s not because they don’t want to.
DK: And it’s not because the mothers are “cold.”
AB: Absolutely not. It’s more like, “this system does not translate what you’re doing into anything I can understand.” When I first started working with autistic kids, a lot of the parents had been called “refrigerator mothers.” It was their coldness or their “death wish” toward the child that was supposed to have caused the child’s autism. That was the standard psychoanalytic understanding of autism. And I think there are some practicing psychoanalysts who still see it that way.
DK: Like the schizophrenogenic mothers of people with schizophrenia?
AB: Exactly. But it’s very clear that both those disorders are biologically-based and that a parent can have a perfectly normal child and then give birth to a child who develops autism or schizophrenia. Does she really love one child and have a death wish toward the other one? I don’t think so.
DK: Do we know yet whether it’s genetic or environmental? I know there’s a theory that environmental toxins play a role. There’s a high prevalence around here in the Bay Area.
AB: When I was first studying autism, the incidence of autism was 1 in 2500. Now it’s about 1 in 66, and in the Bay Area especially there’s a huge prevalence. It’s really burgeoned over the course of my practicing in the field. I’ve watched it carefully and there’s no way that a purely genetic disorder can increase that hugely over such a short period of time. For instance, as long as we’ve been measuring schizophrenia, it seems that about 1% of the population is schizophrenic, and this is across culture, across socioeconomic status, across everything that we know.
It certainly seems as though there are more learning disabilities diagnosed now, too, and more ADHD. Whether that’s a fiction of the pharmaceutical companies remains to be studied. I think that’s certainly something worth looking into.
There’s a pediatric neurologist at Harvard named Martha Herbert who is researching the ways in which all of the neurotoxins in our environment potentiate each other. So it’s not just that there are thousands of neurotoxins, it’s that if you put this one together with these six, you are going to get something that’s way more powerful than any one of them alone.
So it may be that the huge preponderance of neurotoxins is intersecting with some genetic predispositions so that this child will develop autism from these neurotoxins and this other child might develop epilepsy or Tourette’s or anxiety or learning disabilities or maybe nothing. We don’t know for sure, but if I had to stake my career on it, I would say that there’s no question that the environment is involved in this.
DK: I’ve heard a couple of people say that the higher rates of autism in the Bay Area are either due to the fact that people didn’t know about it back when, so it wasn’t being diagnosed, or that this is where the tech boom happened and there’s a huge number of tech geniuses on the autism spectrum here having kids with one another.
AB: Well, the first claim I can throw out immediately. You see a kid who’s flapping his arms and not making any kind of eye contact, and who’s talking in this professorial way and doesn’t care whether anyone is listening or not—don’t tell me that nobody noticed this kid 20 years ago. Maybe they were just called weird kids, but come on, if they were there, they would have been noticed.
The second claim is more compelling. It could be that there are more Asperger types in Silicon Valley. I’ve certainly seen some in my practice who have gone in that direction and are making hundreds of thousands of dollars straight out of an engineering program in a university. They’re drawn to that kind of work. So if indeed there is a genetic component, then a high concentration of these folks all in once place would certainly make having kids on the autism spectrum more likely. But beyond genetics, how are they going to raise their kids? If they can’t relate well with other people, then they’re not going to be super related with their kids. Unless they have partners who are able to compensate for that, the kids are going to be raised with that kind of relational style.
If we think of what we do as a “hard science,” then we’re driven to push these folks into categories. But I think there’s such an intersection of environment—and by that I don’t mean just the physical environment, but the psychological environment that a child is raised in—and the child’s biology. And the family environment is different for each child.
DK: You mean how children develop differently in the same family?
AB: I once saw a family that had eight kids, and I saw several children within the family individually, as well as the family as a whole. The three older ones had been sexually abused by the father, who was in prison, and they had in turn abused the five kids younger than them.
One of those kids developed schizophrenia. I don’t know how much the schizophrenia was triggered by what had happened to him. One of them was so emotionally fragile and had such a severe anxiety disorder that she went to live in a group home. Three of those kids wound up going to college and making really interesting lives for themselves. And one of them had chosen at about 12 to go and live with her best friend’s family, who were highly-functional, wonderful and generous. So she was raised from age 12 on by a good family. She had the resources to go and seek that out and her sibling, a year younger, ended up in a group home. Why? We really don’t know. They both came from the same family environment.
Some things can look neurological and certainly be neurological which then, when the environment shifts, can be lifted. My own granddaughter had tics through her late-middle childhood, and when things shifted in her family, the tics disappeared. So were they neurologically based? They were tics rather than something else, but could they be altered by a better environment and more happiness? It seems to have been the case.
DK: So the environment can both trigger a latent illness and also resolve it.
AB: Right.
DK: Can you describe what standard autism treatment is and what you do that is or isn’t different from that treatment?
AB: Well, in the old days, they used to put an autistic kid on an electrified floor and apply electric shocks until the child performed certain behaviors.
DK: No way. You’re lying.
AB: I’m not kidding.
DK: When was this?
AB: This was in 1950s, and I think it went on for a while. There was a guy named Ivar Lovaas at UCLA who developed it.
DK: It reminds me of the experiments Martin Seligman did with dogs. Shock treatments that created his theory of learned helplessness.
AB: These days standard autism treatment is cognitive behavioral therapy and social skills groups, where you learn particular formulas for social skills.
DK: Like when somebody asks you for something, you say—
AB: “No, thank you” or “Please” or “Hello, my name is Henry. What is your name? What school do you go to?”
DK: So, how to look normal.
AB: Right. What I do with autistic kids instead is I try to enter their world. I try to help them express themselves. I work with my dog in the room, and he is a really good co-therapist, especially with kids whose verbal ability is not so great. They get a lot of physical comfort from holding him.
My work with autistic children is not all that different from the way I work with non-autistic kids, except that it’s harder to reach them and they’re not as reciprocal.

Throwing Marbles

DK: What are some general principles about treating kids on the autism spectrum? How does therapy look with them?
AB: The most important thing for a child on the spectrum is for them to be able to experience that somebody else is sharing their world. The loneliness that they feel, the terrible isolation, and the desperation they feel ends up creating their symptoms. So a parent will bring a child in and say, “He’s shrieking, and he’s up all night long and jumping around the house and repeating learned lines from TV commercials instead of talking about his day at school.”
All of it is the attempt of a child with a big fault in neurotransmitters to reach other human beings, because I think that’s what we all want to do. We all want to be connected. So what I try to do is to enter a child’s world in whatever way I can. Whatever level of functioning they’re at, that’s my biggest guiding principle.
DK: Can you give an example?
AB: I had a woman who brought her 2 1/2-year-old to see me, and she lived somewhere far away like Fresno, so she basically got up at five in the morning and got her kid to my office and then took her home, and that was her day. Because of that, we had agreed that we would only do six sessions. The mother herself was a physician, highly articulate, highly intelligent, highly trained, and she didn’t know what to do with her kid, who was totally nonverbal. She seemed nonresponsive and unable to take in anything that this mother was giving her, and the mother didn’t know whether to institutionalize her or what. She was in a very desperate place when she came to see me.
At the first session I had with this child, I have a basket of marbles, and she took a handful of marbles and threw them across the room. So I did the same thing.
When I work with kids that young, I am constantly trying to interpret to the parent what it is that I’m doing with their child so that the parent can do it, because they’re the one that’s with them all day. And I’m trying to interpret to them also what I see happening with their child, because sometimes they don’t see it.
The kid threw another handful of marbles, so I did too, and after not very long, she began looking at me. And her mother was saying, “She’s making eye contact with you. She never makes eye contact.” And then I thought, let me try to enlarge this a little bit. So I made a little noise while I was throwing the marbles—and she did too. That was session one.
The next four sessions, we continued to do things like that, where she saw that I could enter her world. And I kept saying to her mother, “Look. She does this when I do that. Maybe you could do some of this at home.” We played with different materials. We played with water. We played with sand. I took her into the garden at my therapy office, and she liked playing with the dirt. It wasn’t sophisticated play—we weren’t feeding the baby doll or anything like that. It was sort of infant-level play and infant-level communication, and I just gathered a sense of where she was and what she was feeling and went as close into that as I could.
In our last session, I made a number of recommendations to the mother. I don’t know how much receptive language this child actually had—she certainly had no expressive language—but somewhere in her body she absolutely understood that it was the last session.
So we went out in the garden, and she was sort of recapitulating a lot of the things that we had done together. In the garden outside of my therapy office, there’s a little fountain that doesn’t have any water in it anymore, but has pebbles in it. She took those pebbles and threw them down the path and I went and chased them. She was all excited to make me go do something. And then I did the same for her, and she went and did it. We were doing reciprocal play, where the child had never done anything reciprocal. And the mother was saying that, at home, she was also doing more reciprocal play.
At one point, she did it in a particular sort of winsome way. As she was running, she threw the pebbles and then she made a gesture to let me know that she wanted to go chase them. I thought, “That’s so cool,” and intuitively I just put my hand on her back as she was running, to pat her and say, “Good girl. That’s great.” And for the rest of the session, on and off, this child kept touching the place on her back that I had touched.
As she left and I said goodbye to her and goodbye to her mother, she touched that place on her back, and it was like, “I’m taking you with me. This is how I’m taking you with me. I know this is the last time.” It was so poignant and amazing. The whole thing was as nonverbal as it could get, but it was right there at the level of feeling. It was like letting her know that, regardless of her skewed neurology, it was possible for another person to enter her world, to share her experience, for somebody to touch her back in tenderness and love. It was like we were saying, “I may not see you again, but I know this happened between us.”
DK: That’s such a beautiful story.
AB: It was amazing. The sad thing is I never found out what happened after that.

Parenting Children with Autism

DK: It sounds like you do a lot of work with the parents also. Is that right?
AB: I do a lot of work with the parents. It’s hard to be the parent of an autistic child because you don’t get a lot of the usual rewards. One of the things that makes it possible to be a parent is it’s very rewarding. Sometimes it’s horrible, of course, but it usually becomes rewarding at some point in the not-too-distant future. But with an autistic child, you don’t get a lot of feedback that what you’re doing is working, so a lot of parents lose confidence and they also grieve.
What’s going to happen to their kid when they’re an adult? It’s cute to be an eight-year-old autistic kid; it’s not so cute to be a 27-year-old autistic person. How are they going to make a living? How are they going to survive? What’s going to happen to them when the parents die? I do a lot of work with the parents around their grief over their autistic children and also around accepting that this is the child they have and that he may not be “normal,” he may not do the things that other kids will do, but it’s possible for this child to have fulfillment.
DK: And for the parent to have fulfillment?
AB: Yes, absolutely.
DK: I was just imagining the anxiety and the sense of frustration that the mother must have felt. Driving all the way from Fresno, feeling desperate to make some kind of connection with her child. Finally she makes eye contact with you, makes some emotional contact with you. I imagine that what you were modeling for her was just a profound patience and non-worry, along with a great deal of curiosity.
AB: Right, exactly.
DK: My sense is that that would be so hard for a parent. They must have so much anxiety and shame around their desire for their kids to be different than they are.
AB: It’s a profound, profound feeling of helplessness. I’m actually working on a novel about an autistic child, narrated by her older sister, who isn’t autistic. At the beginning of the novel, the autistic child is quite profoundly autistic, nonverbal. She becomes verbal later, a little bit like the kid I was describing before, but the sister really wishes that her little sister would die. She wishes that she would get lost. The little sister constantly escapes, and the older sister wishes that she would escape one day and never come back. It’s totally understandable, and parents sometimes feel that as well.
It’s so important to legitimize those feelings for parents. When you can’t reach a child and the child is driving you crazy because he is up all night and screaming half the day— it’s so understandable why parents would feel so frustrated and unhappy with their kids.

Deconstructing the American Dream

DK: Autism seems like a disease with a somewhat limited cure rate. There’s of course people like Temple Grandin, who was able to come out of her autistic shell with a great deal of help from her mom, but that’s kind of unusual right?
AB: In some ways that’s true. I see one boy in my practice now who is in his senior year in high school. And when he was a young child, he didn’t have language. It used to be that not having language before five was a pretty bad prognosis. But this kid is amazing. He’s getting straight As in high school. He’s a genius. I’ve never beaten him in a game of Chess or Scrabble. And as a linguist I’m really good at Scrabble!
I think he’s going to have a pretty good life, so the prognosis was wrong. But on the other hand, relationships with other people, fulfillment in any kind of way that is not sort of limited to technology? Probably not. He’ll be better off in that regard than many people with autism, but not like somebody who doesn’t have autism.
DK: So is some of your work with him then about depathologizing this aspect of his reality? Not trying to get him to become “normal” and push him to date and such, but instead redefining a meaningful life in terms that are meaningful to him?
AB: Yes, exactly, and also working with the parents of these kids to help them accept that they are going to have a different way of being happy than their kid who doesn’t have autism, and that it’s really not about following a formula, but about finding what turns them on.
If what turns their kid on is sitting in his room and trying to develop a videogame, fabulous. If he finds joy in that, why not? Why send him out to be on the football team and hold that as the criterion for social success, or having 60 friends? All of us have different ways of being happy. Despite feminism and everything else, there’s still one formula for happiness in this culture that looms above all others.
DK: Married with kids and money.
AB: Exactly. And if you don’t follow that formula, by those standards, you’re a failure. So for the people I work with who have autism, the most painful thing for them is that they don’t have that. They haven’t been able to accomplish the American success formula. It’s important to help them see that despite that, they can have fulfillment in their lives.
DK: In other words, deconstructing the American dream.
AB: Yes!
DK: I don’t treat people with autism, although I’ve worked with a couple of people on the spectrum. But I feel like deconstructing the American dream is standard practice for me. That unattainable, glossy life haunts almost everyone in one way or another.
AB: It’s so true. This is a culture that is so based on the Protestant work ethic and the Calvinist idea of individual responsibility that, if somebody hasn’t “made it,” they believe they are personally responsible.
DK: Particularly since the economy tanked, a lot of people are struggling just to get by and it’s amazing how people personalize failures that are clearly not their fault.
AB: They take it so personally and feel so ashamed. It’s important to say, “Hold on a minute. Take a look at what happened over the last decade, where our tax dollars have gone, who is being bailed out and who is having their food stamps taken away”
DK: But even for people who have a lot of material wealth, they suffer a great deal because they feel that since they have “made it,” they should be happy, because material success brings happiness, right?
AB: I once worked for a couple of years with a person who was going to inherit a huge amount of money and already was living on a trust fund. This person had the kind of money that people dream will make them happy. And I really got an eye into the unhappiness that can exist despite huge amounts of money.
DK: The American dream ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.
AB: It sure isn’t.
DK: Well, it’s been a delight to talk with you today. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.
AB: It was my pleasure. Thank you.

Poem

AB: Questro muroQuando mi vide star pur fermo e duro / turbato un poco disse: “Or vedi figlio:/ tra Beatrice e te e questo muro.”

(When he [Virgil] saw me standing there unmoving, he was a bit disturbed and said, “No look, son, between Beatrice and you there is this wall.”)

—Dante, Purgatorio XXVII

You will come at a turning of the trail
to a wall of flame

After the hard climb & the exhausted dreaming

you will come to a place where he
with whom you have walked this far
will stop, will stand

beside you on the treacherous steep path
& stare as you shiver at the moving wall, the flame

that blocks your vision of what
comes after. And that one
who you thought would accompany you always,

who held your face
tenderly a little while in his hands—
who pressed the palms of his hands into drenched grass
& washed from your cheeks the soot, the tear-tracks—

he is telling you now
that all that stands between you
& everything you have known since the beginning

is this: this wall. Between yourself
& the beloved, between yourself & your joy,
the riverbank swaying with wildflowers, the shaft

of sunlight on the rock, the song.
Will you pass through it now, will you let it consume

whatever solidness this is
you call your life, & send
you out, a tremor of heat,

a radiance, a changed
flickering thing?

—Anita Barrows

John Sommers-Flanagan on Clinical Interviewing and the Highly Unmotivated Client

When In Doubt, Act Like Carl Rogers

Victor Yalom: You and your wife, Rita Sommers-Flanagan, are well known in the field for your work in Clinical Interviewing, and we are delighted to be releasing your video on this topic concurrently with this interview, but before we get into that, I know you’ve also done work with mandated or otherwise unlikely and unwilling clients. Much that’s written about therapy implicitly assumes that the client is there willingly, but in many settings, clients are overtly coerced into coming by courts or institutions, or they’re strongly nudged into treatment by their parents or spouses. How do you work with these clients?
John Sommers-Flanagan, PhD: A lot of my thinking in this area sprang from the work I did in private practice, primarily with challenging teenagers. As you can imagine, many of them did not want to be in the room with me, so the challenge was, “How do I engage this person?”

I have a vivid memory of a young man who spent 30 minutes just saying, “fuck you” to me. I remember trying to go through every strategy I could think of. But probably the best of all was just to try to be like Carl Rogers and listen in an accepting way to that particular message over and over again.
VY: Did you literally reflect it back to him like Carl did, verbatim?
JSF: Well, Carl had a case known as, “The Silent Young Man,” where he’s treating this young man who doesn’t want to speak at all, and I think I was trying to channel him in that situation. So I started off by saying things like, “Well, it sounds like all of a sudden you’re pretty angry with me.” And all I got was, “Fuck You.” Then I was saying things like, “It’s clear that there was something I did or said that offended you and I’m not sure what it was.” Then I did a little self-disclosure. After about 15 or 20 minutes, he was still just saying, “fuck you,” but he started singing it to me as 15-year olds might be inclined to do. That went on for 10 minutes and I’m doing my Carl Rogers impersonation, “Well, you sound like you’re not happy, but even though you’re still swearing at me, you’re not angry any more. Now you’re happy and singing it to me.”
What happened next was really interesting. Keep in mind this was not a first session, it was a sixth, maybe seventh session. When he came in the next week, he sat down in the same chair and looked at me. I was anticipating more anger and more resistance, but the first words that he said were, “I’m just wondering, how would you feel if you were to adopt me?” Which was kind of a shocking change, and actually much more difficult than, “fuck you.”
VY: What did you say?
JSF: Well, he said it in this kind of off-handed way, and I just decided at that moment in time that I should try to be genuine and I responded with some disclosure about feeling a little nervous because this was a young man who had a pretty significant history of violence. I said, “I think I would feel pretty nervous about some of the ways that you’ve been with people.” And that launched us into a different discussion.
For me, it sort of captured how important it is to be, as Marsha Linehan might say, “radically accepting of what the client brings into the room.” Or as Rogers would say, “You just kind of work with what you’re getting.” It seemed to help us go deeper and it facilitated exploration and more engagement.

“You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist”

VY: So one thing I get from this nice story is the underlying message of really hanging in there with a client, even in an extreme case where they’re coming in and swearing at you perhaps for the whole session or half a session. Really being there and meeting them head on, and being as genuine as you can.
JSF: Absolutely. A more common example is one that I get all the time with some of the difficult young adults I work with now. A 20-year old very recently came into therapy and I said something like, “Welcome to therapy, how can I help you?” And he says, “You sound like a stupid shrink and I punched my last therapist.”
This again captures a lot of the pushing and testing that happens with reluctant clients. I said, “Well, thank you very much for telling me that. I would never want to say anything that would lead you to punch me, so, how about if we decide that if I say anything that makes you want to punch me, you just tell me and I’ll not to say it anymore?”And the kid sat back and said, “Wow. Okay. That’s alright with me.”

VY: How do you conceptualize uncooperative or unwilling clients?
JSF: Well, there are few different dimensions. The first is how they’re referred. They’re often referred by a probation officer or principal, or the parents bring in someone or someone is abusing substances and has been given an ultimatum, or a spouse insists on some kind of counseling and so they come sort of unwillingly into the room.
Then there is the way that their resistance manifests in the room. Sometimes it manifests in silence. “I’m not going to talk to you and you can’t make me.” My standard response to that is what I think people have referred to as a concession where I say, “You are absolutely right. I cannot make you talk about anything in here. I especially can’t make you talk about anything you don’t want to talk about.” With teenagers, I will say that and then I’ll pause and I’ll say, “Well what do you want to talk about?” It’s like they need to posture by saying that they won’t talk, and when I concede that they’re right, that they do have control over themselves, then they tend to respond.
Other times, as I’ve just talked about, resistance is much more aggressive. I remember an older man who said, “We might get in a fight in this meeting.” That’s a much more aggressive kind of resisting the initial contact.
And, lastly, there are some people who resist through externalizing, as in, “the problem is with my school,” or “It’s with my spouse,” “it’s with work,” “it’s with everyone but me.” The challenge then is to listen empathically without getting too frustrated, because if I get frustrated and accuse the person of externalizing, oftentimes it just makes them more defensive. Those are three different categories I can think of off the top of my head: the very silent client, the very aggressive, and the very externalizing client who has a lot of trouble taking any initial responsibility for his or her problems.
VY: So aside from acceptance, empathy, and trying to really be there authentically, what are some other key principals for the therapists working with these kinds of clients?
JSF: I don’t know if you remember Mary Cover Jones, who did some of the early work with John Watson on helping young children desensitize their fears, but she said, “We have two means through which we can help decondition people. One is counter conditioning, where you have some kind of positive stimulus that you pair with the anxiety-provoking stimulus. And the other one is through participant modeling.” She wrote about that in 1924, and it was pretty amazing stuff at the time.
So I have started to reconceptualize people who are resistant to therapy as people who are anxious about the situation. I think, “How do I produce an environment that is going to counter-condition anxiety? What’s in my environment that might help people feel more comfortable and less anxious?” It’s another principal I’m often thinking of in a clinical situation.
VY: I can’t help but note that you’re pleasantly eclectic. You’re combining the epitome of humanism, the person-centered approach of Carl Rogers, with hardcore behaviorism.
JSF: I don’t consider myself a behaviorist, but I also think that if we don’t understand behavioral principals of reinforcement and classical conditioning, we can inadvertently do all the wrong things.
Foundationally, I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel.
I want to have an office, I want to have a wardrobe, I want to have a way of being with clients that is going to counter-condition any anxiety that the person might feel. Mary Cover Jones used cookies with children, and when I work with teenagers, I absolutely use food. I will have some food, fruit snacks or something nutritional in the room that I can offer, and in some ways I’m thinking absolutely behaviorally at that point. And I’m also thinking relationally—it’s about having a supportive, mutually collaborative relationship. We’re working together.
VY: Can you say a little more what you mean by examples of counter-conditioning anxiety?
JSF: Well, I was just looking through Skype into your space and you have some fabulous artwork. And I think it’s important to have a room that has comforting, pleasant artwork and other kinds of symbols that will help put people at ease. And if you’re working with LGBTQ people, there should be some kind of symbolic communication that you are welcoming those people into your office.
Same thing here in Montana. We work a lot with the Native American population, and it’s really important to have some sensitivity and representation in our office of that sensitivity.
When working with younger clients, the same thing applies. I was supervising a young man who had a 16-year-old boy client who said, “I will never speak to you about anything important in my life, period.” We knew from his referral info that he had been the person to discover his father had hanged himself, so he had some terrible, complex, traumatic grief.
My supervisee said, “What am I going to do?” And I said, “Take the checkers. Take backgammon. Take some games. Take some clay. Take some things into the room. And don’t force him to talk. Just be with him. Play.”
They played for three sessions, just played backgammon. And at the end of the third session, the client looked at the counselor and said, “Well, should we keep seeing each other? Because you said I only needed to come three times.”
And the counselor said, “Yeah, I think we should keep going.”
And the client said, “Well, okay then,” and he pushed the backgammon set aside and starting talking. To me it seemed like a great example of counter-conditioning. They used playing games as the stimulus that was pleasant and non-threatening.
VY: And participant modeling?
JSF: That’s really important, although obviously you can’t really have other people in the room modeling, so the therapist is the model, and is modeling comfort in all things. Comfort when the client says, “I’m feeling suicidal.” Comfort when the client says, “I want to punch you in the nose.” The response is to appreciate those disclosures, instead of being frightened by them. Being frightened by the client’s disclosures is going to feed the anxiety, instead of counter-condition it or instead of modeling, “We can handle this. We can handle this together. It’s best if we do talk about all these things, even the disturbing things that you bring into the room.”
VY: How do you help students, beginning therapists, achieve that? And, how do you balance that portrayal of comfort with authenticity when, in fact, beginning therapists may not feel at all comfortable?
JSF: That’s a great question, and it’s one of the challenges because you want the therapist to be genuine, and yet at the same time you want them to be comfortable. And often those two things are a little bit mutually exclusive.
But I think first of all, information helps. It’s helpful to our trainees and interns and young therapists to really understand and believe that, for example, suicidal ideation is not deviant. It’s not pathology. It’s an expression of distress, and if people don’t tell you about their suicidal ideation, then they are keeping it inside, and they’re not sharing their personal private experience of distress.

I try to do a lot of education around that, whether it’s suicidal or homicidal ideation or trauma or whatever it is that clients might talk about. It’s really important for young therapists to know if they don’t talk about it, we’ll never have a chance to help them with those legitimate, real thoughts and experiences that they’re having.

And the other big piece is practice, practice, practice.

VY: How do you practice these things?
JSF: To give an example, a lot our students initially do suicide assessment interviews, and they’ll say to their role-play client, “Have you thought about hurting yourself?” I’ll interrupt and say, “Okay, now use the word ‘suicide.’” Now say, “Have you thought about killing yourself?” I’m wanting them to get comfortable with the words and to practice using those words so that they aren’t so terribly frightening.
I remember supervising a new student who was conducting an initial assessment, and about half-way through the 30-minute interview, his client says, “I used to have a terrible addiction problem, and one of the things that really has helped me with my recovery is cycling. I’m an avid cycler and it’s really helped me with my drug and alcohol problems.”
At which point, he freezes in panic and says, “So what kind of bike do you have?”
I stopped the tape and said, “Hey, what was going on?” He says, “I was scared, I didn’t want to open things up.”
I said, “Well she did. She opened it up. She shared with you that she had an addiction problem, that she was in recovery, and that she had a method that really is helpful to her. So it would be perfectly natural for you to then use your good active listening skills and ask an open question or do a paraphrase or reflection of feeling, and to stay focused on the target, which was addiction recovery coping, instead of asking what kind of bike she had.”
So it’s a combination of offering encouragement, practice, and feedback.
VY: In addition to behavioral principles and humanist principles, what other theories or principles do you draw from?
JSF: Well, in the psychodynamic realm, I’m thinking of Edward Borden’s work on the working alliance and his effort to generalize it from the psychoanalytic frame to other frames. And the emotional bond between therapist and client, which Anna Freud wrote about initially. We really try to facilitate that.
We also engage in collaborative work toward goal consensus between therapist and client, and it could be that we agree that the therapeutic task involves free association and interpretation and working through. Or it could be a therapeutic task that involves exposure and a real behavior modification approach.

Clinical Interviewing

VY: You and your wife Rita Sommers-Flanagan have written a comprehensive and widely-used textbook entitled, Clinical Interviewing, about the initial stage of therapy, where you’ve examined and broken down in great detail all the aspects that those first few sessions. Can you explain what you mean by “clinical interviewing?”
JSF: It’s a term that originally referred to the initial psychiatric interview, which has a lot of assessment in it. So it refers to that initial contact. But as we have grown, we’ve come to see it as not just an initial contact. In some ways, every contact is a clinical interview in that every contact involves this sort of two-headed goal of assessment and helping. And then the third component is the working alliance, or the therapeutic relationship.
As we know, assessments in a clinical interview produce more valid data if we have a good working or therapeutic relationship. The evidence is very clear that therapy outcomes are more positive if we have a positive emotional bond, and we’re working collaboratively on goals and tasks. So I see the therapeutic relationship as central to the assessment and the helping dimension of the clinical interview.
VY: It’s the beginning phase of therapy.
JSF: Yes.
VY: In reading your text and also in viewing the video we’re releasing conjointly with this interview, you really emphasize the importance of the therapeutic relationship or rapport-building as an integral part of that initial contact.
JSF: Right. Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
VY: Because you’re not going to get much information or accurate information if they don’t feel like you’re on their side?
JSF: Absolutely. It’s about establishing trust and helping people to be open. I’m very familiar with your father’s work, and in The Gift of Therapy, he writes, “In recent and initial interviews, this inquiry into the typical day allowed me to learn of activities I might not otherwise have known for months.
Even if you’re doing something as straightforward as a structured diagnostic interview, or a mental status examination, you really want to engage in a therapeutic way with the patient or the client.
A few hours a day of computer solitaire, three hours a night in Internet sex chat rooms under a different identity, massive procrastination at work, ensuing shame. A daily schedule so demanding that I was exhausted listening to it.”
And he goes on and on about these disclosures that he was able to get by asking a simple question, “Tell me about your usual day.” To me, that’s a great example of how rich the assessment data can be with a simple question, if you have a positive rapport and therapeutic relationship.
VY: So it seems like a fundamental balancing act that you’re always dealing with is how do you balance getting sufficient information—particularly if you work for an agency where forms are a part of the process—while establishing sufficient rapport. Because if they don’t come back for a second session, the treatment is surely a failure.
JSF: Right, how do we balance the information-gathering task that we might have for our agency with the relationship task? And how do we do that with culturally diverse clients?
One of the things we try to do in the Clinical Interviewing book is to go into detail—with an outline and structure—of different kinds of initial clinical interviews, including the intake and the mental status exam, suicide assessment, diagnostic interviewing, and other kinds of interviews, yet emphasizing throughout the importance of the relationship.
So if I have a checklist that my clinic is requiring me to fill out, I would say to the client, “This part of our task today. I am supposed to ask these questions and record your answers, but I also want to hear from you in your own words things that you’re experiencing. So I’ll try to balance that with you.” And I’ll actually show them the questionnaire or the checklist.
VY: So be transparent.
JSF: Be transparent. Absolutely.

Multicultural Competence and Moving Beyond Your Comfort Zone

VY: You mentioned different cultures. What are some particular considerations that come to mind about that?
JSF: Well, some of the principals that come to mind for me involve respect for the native culture here in Montana and throughout the U.S. I think respect is a core part of beginning any relationship. And I think respect involves understanding and being able to pronounce the names of various tribes, asking very gently and respectfully about tribal affiliation here in Montana. I will sometimes say that I know some people from, say, the Crow tribe who have been students in our program. Even if they don’t know the particular students, it can be helpful to hear that I have had contact with somebody who’s got the same tribal affiliation as them.
Cultural competence also means that we take the time to read and study about working with Latino or Latina clients. It also involves using what Stanley Sue referred to as “dynamic sizing” and “scientific mindedness,” where we try to figure out, “Does this cultural generality apply to the specific cultural being in my office?” That’s a difficult but very important thing to determine.
VY: Just a couple weeks ago I had the privilege of interviewing Stanley Sue’s brother, Derald Wing Sue, on multi-cultural issues. One of the things he emphasized was really getting outside of your comfort zone and getting to know these other cultures on a more than superficial level.
JSF: Another thing he really emphasizes is the question that can’t help but be in the back of the mind of many minority clients: “Is this therapist the kind of person who will oppress me in ways that other people in the dominant culture have oppressed me and my family, my tribe, or my culture?”
One of the remedies that he and others have talked about is for therapists to be more transparent, and use a little more self-disclosure. Because without doing that, there’s just no good evidence that we’re not the oppressor or the “downpressor” as some Jamaicans would say.
So diving into the culture, getting to know it on more than a surface level, and then being able to use some of the principals that Stanley and Derald Wing Sue have articulated well is essential. It makes things much more complicated and much more rewarding.

Intake Essentials

VY: There are many models of how that initial client contact occurs—from a brief telephone intake to, in certain settings like substance abuse or mental health treatment centers, having a designated intake worker who passes on the client to interns or therapists. Do you have a general recommendation or sense of what the best practices are for the initial intake?
JSF: Well, in agencies where there is a handoff from an intake worker to other therapists, it can be difficult to maintain the therapeutic connection. In that case the initial session becomes much more about clinical assessment than initiating therapy.
Constance Fischer and Stephen Finn have written about these kinds of therapeutic assessments since at least the late 1970’s, and they suggest complete transparency through the process. “Here’s how things work in this agency.
This will be my only session with you. I would like to work longer with you, but what I’m going to be thinking about during our time together is who might be the best match for you for ongoing counseling or psychotherapy.”
Without that transparency we run the risk of alienating the client—leaving them feeling like, “Oh, man, I have to go through all this again with another person next week?”
VY: It’s hard enough for people to get into treatment in the first place. As I often say to clients, “People are not usually waiting in line to get the therapy.” It often takes people years.
JSF: Right, and when we put another hurdle there it makes it even more difficult. So it’s important to explain the hurdles and let them know how best to get over the next hurdle.
VY: Is your general sense that it’s better not to have a separate person doing the intake if possible?
JSF: I think it’s better to have the same person do the intake and then continue with therapy. There are, of course, exceptions to that. If you have someone who is not well-trained in substance abuse therapy, and then it becomes clear in the first intake session that this person has an active substance abuse problem, transferring the person to a therapist or counselor who has that experience would be a better fit.
And you can just explain that to the client, although oftentimes the client will still say, “Oh, but I’d rather work with you.” But as long as you have a good rationale, you can make that transition relatively easily. So, yes, it’s best to have the same person do the intake and then continue with the therapy, except in situations where there’s a clear rationale to do otherwise.

Treatment Planning

VY: What are your thoughts about treatment planning? There’s a lot of emphasis on that in many agencies. Do you think that’s something that actually can be done with any specificity? So often someone comes in thinking they’re here to work on X, and six weeks later, you’re really working more on Y. So at times I wonder who the treatment planning process is really serving. Is it really serving the client, or is it serving some agency needs, some funding needs, or the anxiety of the therapist?
JSF: I remember an old supervisor saying to a group of us, “We’re not technicians. We can’t really lay out a protocol for exactly how to act with every client. Every client’s unique, so we need to go deeper than that. We’re professionals, and we bring both art and science into the room.”
I think it’s important to blend the two.
I’m not a big fan of cookie cutter treatment plans. But I am a fan of looking at the plan, talking with the client about what our plan is, and being somewhat explicit and collaborative in that process. I see it as a kind of dialectic—it’s a little bit cookie cutter in that it doesn’t bring in much of the individuality of the client but it does have some important information for us. From there we can dive into the unique qualities of the client and their experiences.
As an example, let’s just say you have a client who’s impulsive. We know that there are certain kinds of treatments that we might use with someone who is diagnosed with ADHD who is impulsive, where those impulsive behaviors are getting him or her in trouble. It’s good to know about CBT and other kinds of therapies that might help with impulsivity. But it’s also really important to get into the mind and, in some sense, the body of that individual client to understand what’s going on with that person.
But knowing that there are probably triggers that increase and decrease impulsivity is something you’d want to work on with a CBT treatment plan. It can help focus the questioning, even if you’re working from an existential perspective.

“Evidence-Based” Treatment

VY: As you’re a professor at the University of Montana, and actively involved in training students, I’m wondering what your thoughts are about the major trend towards “evidence-based” treatment? There are a lot of leading figures in the field who are critiquing this trend. John Norcross talks about evidence-based relationships, since research actually shows that most of the positive outcomes in therapy are based on the relationships and not on this or that technique or procedure. Are you pressured by accrediting agencies to teach evidence-based treatments? What have your experiences been in this regard?
JSF: Yes, there is a lot of pressure to incorporate “evidence-based,” or “empirically-supported treatments.” When you look at Norcross’ work, you have to shake your head and wonder why we focus so much on technical procedures and evidence-based treatments. The science just really isn’t there. There are studies done that show X or Y treatment is effective and, therefore, it becomes evidence-based. And yet there’s a mountain of evidence saying otherwise, that it’s not the specific protocols that make a positive treatment outcome.
There are these voices in the wilderness, like Norcross, crying out about this, but there’s still this inexorable trend towards requiring these evidence-based treatments in training students and in various government agencies, for example.
The cynical side of me would say it’s about trying to get our share of the healthcare dollars. Shaping ourselves to be in the medical model, since there are empirically-supported medical treatments. Of course, there is some real scientific evidence that we should be aware of when working with our clients. We should be, because we’re professionals in this area. Like Norcross writes about, there are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures. There are evidence-based relationship principals that account for positive outcomes and so we need to look at those, and we need to emphasize those more than the technical procedures.
But we shouldn’t ignore all technical procedures because, even Carl Rogers would say, “If the technique arises spontaneously out of a particular place where you are in the counseling process, then it may be appropriate.”
VY: In wrapping up, any advice you would give for students or early career therapists just starting out?
JSF: I think my biggest advice these days is to focus on balance: The balance between the science and the art, the balance between the relationship and assessment and diagnosis. We need some diagnostic information in many real world situations, but we should not try to get that at the risk of damaging the therapeutic relationship. The impulse is for people to go one direction or the other. I was at a workshop one time where a woman referred to people as science “fundamentalists,” which I thought was a very apt description of some people. They have this allegiance to the paradigm of modernist science, and that’s the only way truth is known.
Then there are people who are much more touchy-feely and go with the flow. My general advice would be, if you’re more of a touchy-feely person, you really still need to learn the science. You still need to read the clinical interviewing text and understand the content that is our professional foundation. And if you’re more inclined toward scientific fundamentalism, you need to get out of that box and try to learn from the other side of the dialectic, which is the relational, emotional side of things that happen in the therapy office.

Advice for the Late-Career Therapist

VY: So let’s use mid- or later-career therapists as an example. By that time in their careers, many have migrated to private practice and have gotten very comfortable in their own ways of being with clients. In many ways that’s a good thing—it’s part of the career progression to take everything you’ve learned along the way and integrate that into who you are as a person. But one drawback I see is the possibility of just jumping into therapy with any client who walks in your office—assuming they’re a good fit for you—without maybe doing a proper assessment. And then they find out six months down the road that the client has a drinking issue that they hadn’t disclosed before. Any advice for these later-career therapists?
JSF: Yes. I’m not in full-time private practice right now but I have friends who see 35 people a week, and are doing the kind of thing you’re talking about.
It’s so easy for us to get into a little niche where we do it our way, and we’re no longer open to other ways of thinking. I’d say it’s really important to keep stretching yourself, to keep reading, to keep going to professional workshops, because we can do things wrong for years and think that we’re actually being successful.
Scott Miller is emphasizing it now more than anyone else–but it’s incredibly important to get systematic feedback from our clients so that we can get a sense whether we’re on the right track with each individual client.
Even though we sometimes can convince ourselves that we’re incredibly intuitive and we can, therefore, launch into therapy immediately, there is some research that suggests that negative outcomes correlate with inadequate assessment. So we do need to step back and do a little formal assessment here and there, even though, as experienced practitioners, we might think, “I know what to do here. This is not a problem.”
Instead, step back and to say, “Let’s do a little bit of assessment here so we can work together to make sure that we’re on the right track.” In other words, mid-therapy adjustments and assessments to make sure that we are helping our clients as effectively as possible.
VY: A final question: What’s your growing edge right now as a teacher and practitioner?
JSF: I have several growing edges. One growing edge that’s pretty constant for me is working toward greater cultural sensitivity, and being able to know more deeply about people who come from diverse minority kinds of backgrounds.
Another growing edge for me is the whole idea of mindfulness and how to incorporate that into some of the more traditional ways that I was taught to do psychotherapy.
I think the other growing edge for me is kind of a growing foundation. The person-centered principals for me have always been foundational and I find myself sometimes really wanting to go back to those. I can see myself in future months or years going to some trainings to get even better at the things that I think are my basic foundational skills.
VY: I often have the opportunity to review some old videos that we’ve acquired or produced and just recently watched the first video produced with James Bugental, a human-centered existential therapist. I’ve probably seen that video 20 times and I still appreciate it, perhaps on an even deeper level.Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

JSF: Thank you very much, Victor. I very much appreciate your work and the fact that you have dedicated a lot of your life to making the work of other great therapists accessible to all of us.

Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving

Editor’s Note: Following is an adapted excerpt from Pete Walker’s latest book, Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving—A Guide and Map for Recovering from Childhood Trauma. For more information about treating Complex PTSD (CPTSD) and managing emotional flashbacks, read a previously published article by Pete Walker here

Attachment Disorder and Complex PTSD

Many traumatologists see attachment disorder as one of the key symptoms of Complex PTSD. In the psychoeducational phases of working with traumatized clients, I typically describe attachment disorder as the result of growing up with primary caretakers who were regularly experienced as dangerous. They were dangerous by contemptuous voice or heavy hand, or more insidiously, dangerous by remoteness and indifference.

Recurring abuse and neglect habituates children to living in fear and sympathetic nervous system arousal. It makes them easily triggerable into the abandonment mélange of overwhelming fear and shame that tangles up with the depressed feelings of being abandoned.

A child, with parents who are unable or unwilling to provide safe enough attachment, has no one to whom she can bring her whole developing self. No one is there for reflection, validation and guidance. No one is safe enough to go to for comfort or help in times of trouble. There is no one to cry to, to protest unfairness to, and to seek compassion from for hurts, mistakes, accidents, and betrayals. No one is safe enough to shine with, to do “show and tell” with, and to be reflected as a subject of pride. There is no one to even practice the all-important intimacy-building skills of conversation.

In the paraphrased words of more than one of my clients: “Talking to Mom was like giving ammunition to the enemy. Anything I said could and would be used against me. No wonder, people always tell me that I don’t seem to have much to say for myself.”

Those with CPTSD-spawned attachment disorders never learn the communication skills that engender closeness and a sense of belonging. When it comes to relating, they are often plagued by debilitating social anxiety—and social phobia when they are at the severe end of the continuum of CPTSD.

Many of the clients who come through my door have never had a safe enough relationship. Repetition compulsion drives them to unconsciously seek out relationships in adulthood that traumatically reenact the abusive and/or abandoning dynamics of their childhood caretakers. For many such clients, we are their first legitimate shot at a safe and nurturing relationship. If we are not skilled enough to create the degree of safety they need to begin the long journey towards developing good enough trust, we may be their last.

Emotional flashback management, therefore, is empowered when it is taught in the context of a safe relationship. Clients need to feel safe enough with their therapist to describe their humiliation and overwhelm. At the same time, the therapist needs to be nurturing enough to provide the empathy and calm support that was missing in the client’s early experience.

Just as importantly, the therapist needs to be able to tolerate and work therapeutically with the sudden evaporation of trust that is so characteristic of CPTSD. Trauma survivors do not have a volitional “on” switch for trust, even though their “off” switch is frequently automatically triggered during flashbacks. In therapy, the therapist must be able to work on reassurance and trust restoral over and over again. I have heard too many disappointing client stories about past therapists who got angry at them because they would not simply choose to trust them.

As the importance of this understanding ripens in me, I increasingly embrace an intersubjective or relational approach. That means that I believe that the quality of the clients’ relationship with me can provide a corrective emotional experience that saves them from being doomed to a lifetime of superficial connection, or worse, social isolation and alienation.

Moreover, I notice that without the development of a modicum of trust with me, my CPTSD clients are seriously delimited in their receptivity to my guidance, as well as to the ameliorative effects of my empathy. In this regard then, I will describe four key qualities of relating that I believe are essential to the development of trust, and the subsequent relational healing that can come out of it. These are empathy, authentic vulnerability, dialogicality and collaborative relationship repair.

1. Empathy

I used to assume that the merits of empathy were a given, but I have sadly heard too many stories of empathy-impoverished therapy. In this regard, I will simply say here that if we are hard and unsympathetic with our clients, we trigger the same sense of danger and abandonment in them that they experienced with their parents.

In terms of a definition, I especially like Kohut’s statement that: “Empathy involves immersing yourself in another’s psychological state by feeling yourself into the other’s experience.”

When I delve deeply enough into a client’s experience, no matter how initially perplexing or intemperate it may at first seem, I inevitably find psychological sense in it, especially when I recognize its flashback components. In fact, I can honestly say that I have never met a feeling or behavior that did not make sense when viewed through the lenses of transference and traumatology.

Empathy, of course, deepens via careful listening and full elicitation of the client’s experience, along with the time-honored techniques of mirroring and paraphrasing which show the client the degree to which we get him.

Noticing my subjective free associations often enhances my empathic attunement and ability to reflect back to the client in an emotionally accurate and validating way. When appropriate, I sometimes share my autobiographical free associations with the client when they are emotionally analogous. I do this to let her know that I really empathize with what she is sharing.

Following is an example. My client tells me with great embarrassment that she stayed home all weekend because she had a pimple on her nose. She is ashamed of the pimple and of her “vanity’’ about it. She moans: “How could I be so stupid to let such a little thing bother me?” I suddenly remember cancelling a date once when I had a cold sore. At the time, I also got lost in a toxic shame attack. I share this with her, minus present day shame about it. She tears up and then laughs, relieved as her shame melts away. Months later, she tells me that her trust in me mushroomed at that moment. Guidelines for being judicious about this kind of self-disclosure will be discussed below.

Of the many benefits of empathy, the greatest is perhaps that it models and teaches self-empathy, better known as self-acceptance. To the degree that we attune to and welcome all of the client’s experience, to that same degree can the client learn to welcome it in her- or himself.

2. Authentic Vulnerability

Authentic vulnerability is a second quality of intimate relating which often begins with emotionally reverberating with the client. I have found that emotional reflection of the client’s feelings is irreplaceable in fostering the development of trust and real relational intimacy.

Emotional reflection requires the therapist to be emotionally vulnerable himself and reveal that he too feels mad, sad, bad and scared sometimes. Modeling vulnerability, as with empathy, demonstrates to the client the value of being vulnerable and encourages her to risk wading into her own vulnerability.

I came to value therapeutic vulnerability the hard way via its absence in my own therapy with a therapist who was of the old, “blank screen” school. She was distant, laconic and over-withholding in her commitment to the psychoanalytic principle of “optimal frustration.” Therapy with her was actually counter-therapeutic and shame-exacerbating for me as we reenacted a defective child/perfect parent dynamic.

Therapeutic Emotional Disclosure
Thankfully, I eventually realized that I had unresolved attachment issues, and sought out a relational therapist who valued the use of her own vulnerable and emotionally authentic self as a tool in therapy. Her tempered and timely emotional self-disclosures helped me to deconstruct the veneer of invincibility I had built as a child to hide my pain. Here are some examples that were especially helpful. “God, the holidays can be awful.” “I get scared when I teach a class too.” “I’m so sorry. I just missed what you said. I got a little distracted by my anxiety about my dental appointment this afternoon.” “I feel sad that your mother was so mean to you.” “It makes me angry that you were so bullied by your parents.”

“My therapist’s modeling that anger, sadness, fear, and depression were emotions that could be healthily expressed helped me to renounce the pain-repressing, emotional perfectionism in which I was mired.” With her, I learned to stop burying my feelings in the hope of being loved. I renounced my just-get-over-it philosophy and embraced vulnerability as a way of finally getting close to people.

I needed this kind of modeling, as so many of my clients have, to begin to emerge from my fear of being attacked, shamed or abandoned for feeling bad and having dysphoric feelings. In order to let go of my Sisyphean salvation fantasy of achieving constant happiness, I needed to experience that all the less than shiny bits of me were acceptable to another human being. Seeing that she was comfortable with and accepting of her own unhappy feelings eventually convinced me that she really was not disgusted by mine.

The therapist’s judicious use of emotional self-disclosure helps the client move out of the slippery, shame-lined pit of emotional perfectionism. Here are some self-revealing things that I say to encourage my clients to be more emotionally self-accepting. “I feel really sad about what happened to you.” “I feel really angry that you got stuck with such a god-awful family.” “When I’m temporarily confused and don’t know what to say or do, I…” “When I’m having a shame attack, I…” “When something triggers me into fear, I…” “When my inner critic is overreacting, I remind myself of the Winnicottian concept that I only have to be a ‘good enough person.’”

Here are two examples of emotional self-disclosure that are fundamental tools of my therapeutic work. I repeatedly express my genuine indignation that the survivor was taught to hate himself. Over time, this often awakens the survivor’s instinct to also feel incensed about this travesty. This then empowers him to begin standing up to the inner critic. This in turn aids him to emotionally invest in the multidimensional work of building healthy self-advocacy.

Furthermore, I also repeatedly respond with empathy and compassion to the survivor’s suffering. With time, this typically helps to awaken the recoveree’s capacity for self-empathy. She then gradually learns to comfort herself when she is in a flashback or otherwise painful life situation. Less and less often does she surrender to an inner torture of self-hate, self-disappointment, and self-abandonment.

My most consistent feedback from past clients is that responses like these—especially ones that normalize fear and depression—helped them immeasurably to deconstruct their perfectionism, and open up to self-compassion and self-acceptance.

Guidelines for Self-Disclosure
What guidelines, then, can we use to insure that our self-disclosure is judicious and therapeutic? I believe the following five principles help me to disclose therapeutically and steer clear of unconsciously sharing for my own narcissistic gratification.

First, I use self-disclosure sparingly.

Second, my disclosures are offered primarily to promote a matrix of safety and trust in the relationship. In this vein my vulnerability is offered to normalize and de-shame the inexorable, existential imperfection of the human condition, e.g., we all make mistakes, suffer painful feelings, experience confusion, etc.

Third, I do not share vulnerabilities that are currently raw and unintegrated.

Fourth, I never disclose in order to work through my own “stuff,” or to meet my own narcissistic need for verbal ventilation or personal edification.

Fifth, while I may share my appreciation or be touched by a client’s attempt or offer to focus on or soothe my vulnerabilities, I never accept the offer. I gently thank them for their concern, remind them that our work is client-centered, and let them know that I have an outside support network.

Emotional Self-disclosure and Sharing Parallel Trauma History
Since many of my clients have sought my services after reading my somewhat autobiographical book on recovery from the dysfunctional family, self-disclosure about my past trauma is sometimes a moot point. This condition has at the same time helped me realize how powerful this kind of disclosure can be in healing shame and cultivating hope.

Over and over, clients have told me that my vulnerable and pragmatic stories of working through my parents’ traumatizing abuse and neglect gives them the courage to engage the long difficult journey of recovering. But whether or not someone has read my book, I will—with appropriate clients—judiciously and sparingly share my own experiences of dealing with an issue they have currently brought up. I do this both to psychoeducate them and to model ways that they might address their own analogous concerns.

One common example sounds like this: “I hate flashbacks too. Even though I get them much less than when I started this work, falling back into that old fear and shame is so awful.”

I also sometimes say: “I really reverberate with your feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness around the inner critic. In the early stages of this work, I often felt overwhelmingly frustrated. It seemed that trying to shrink it actually made it worse. But now after ten thousand repetitions of thought-stopping and thought-correction, my critic is a mere shadow of its former self.”

A final example concerns a purely emotional self-disclosure. When a client is verbally ventilating about a sorrowful experience, I sometimes allow my tears to brim up in my eyes in authentic commiseration with their pain. The first time my most helpful therapist did this with me, I experienced a quantum leap in my trust of her.

3. Dialogicality

Dialogicality occurs when two conversing people move fluidly and interchangeably between speaking (an aspect of healthy narcissism) and listening (an aspect of healthy codependence). Such reciprocal interactions prevent either person from polarizing to a dysfunctional narcissistic or codependent type of relating.

Dialogicality energizes both participants in a conversation. Dialogical relating stands in contrast to the monological energy-theft that characterizes interactions whereby a narcissist pathologically exploits a codependent’s listening defense. Numerous people have reverberated with my observation that listening to a narcissist monologue feels as if it is draining them of energy.

I have become so mindful of this dynamic that, in a new social situation, a sudden sense of tiredness often warns me that I am talking with a narcissist. How different than the elevation I sense in myself and my fellow conversant in a truly reciprocal exchange. Again, I wonder if there are mirror neurons involved in this.

I was appalled the other day while perusing a home shopping catalog to see a set of coffee cups for sale that bore the monikers “Designated Talker” and “Designated Listener.” My wife and I pondered it for a few minutes, and hypothesized that it had to be a narcissist who designed those mugs. We imagined we could see the narcissists who order them presenting them to their favorite sounding boards as Christmas presents.

In therapy, dialogicality develops out of a teamwork approach—a mutual brainstorming about the client’s issues and concerns. Such an approach cultivates full exploration of ambivalences, conflicts and other life difficulties.

Dialogicality is enhanced when the therapist offers feedback from a take-it-or-leave-it stance. Dialogicality also implies respectful mutuality. It stands in stark contrast to the blank screen neutrality and abstinence of traditional psychoanalytic therapy, which all too often reenacts the verbal and emotional neglect of childhood. I believe abstinence commonly flashes the client back into feelings of abandonment, which triggers them to retreat into “safe” superficial disclosure, ever-growing muteness and/or early flight from therapy.

Meeting Healthy Narcissistic Needs
All this being said, extensive dialogicality is often inappropriate in the early stages of therapy. This is especially true, when the client’s normal narcissistic needs have never been gratified, and remain developmentally arrested. In such cases, clients need to be extensively heard. They need to discover through the agency of spontaneous self-expression the nature of their own feelings, needs, preferences and views.

For those survivors whose self-expression was especially decimated by their caretakers, self-focused verbal exploration typically needs to be the dominant activity for a great deal of time. Without this, the unformed healthy ego has no room to grow and break free from the critic. The client’s healthy sense of self remains imprisoned beneath the hegemony of the outsized superego.

This does not mean, however, that the client benefits when the therapist retreats into extremely polarized listening. Most benefit, as early as the first session, from hearing something real or “personal” from the therapist. This helps overcome the shame-inducing potential that arises in the “One-seen (client) / One-unseen (therapist)” dynamic. “When one person is being vulnerable and the other is not, shame has a huge universe in which to grow.” This also creates a potential for the client to get stuck flashing back to childhood when the vulnerable child was rejected over and over by the seemingly invulnerable parent. Consequently, many of my colleagues see group therapy as especially powerful for healing shame, because it rectifies this imbalance by creating a milieu where it is not just one person who is risking being vulnerable.

In this regard, it is interesting to note a large survey of California therapists that occurred about fifteen years ago. The survey was about their therapy preferences, and upwards of ninety percent emphasized that they did not want a blank screen therapist, but rather one who occasionally offered opinions and advice.

For twenty-five years, I have been routinely asking clients in the first session: “Based on your previous experiences in therapy, what would you like to happen in our work together; and what don’t you want to happen?” How frequently clients respond similarly to the therapists in the survey!

Moreover, the next most common response I receive is that I don’t want a therapist who does all the talking. More than a few have used the exact phrase: “I couldn’t get a word in edgewise!” “How I wish there was a way that our qualification tests could spot and disqualify the narcissists who get licensed and then turn their already codependent clients into sounding boards.” This is the shadowy flipside polarity of the blank screen therapist.

Psychoeducation as Part of Dialogicality
Experience has taught me that clients who are childhood trauma survivors typically benefit from psychoeducation about Complex PTSD. When clients understand the whole picture of CPTSD recovery, they become more motivated to participate in the self-help practices of recovering. This also increases their overall hopefulness and general engagement in the therapeutic process. I sometimes wonder whether the rise in the popularity of coaching has been a reaction to the various traditional forms of therapeutic neglect.

One of the worst forms of therapeutic neglect occurs when the therapist fails to notice or challenge a client’s incessant, self-hating diatribes. This, I believe, is akin to tacitly approving of and silently colluding with the inner critic.

Perhaps therapeutic withholding and abstinence derives from the absent father syndrome that afflicts so many westernized families. Perhaps traditional psychotherapy overemphasizes the mothering principles of listening and unconditional love, and neglects the fathering principles of encouragement and guidance that coaching specializes in.

Too much coaching is, of course, as counter-therapeutic and unbalanced as too much listening. It can interfere with the client’s process of self-exploration and self-discovery as described above. At its worst, it can lure the therapist into the narcissistic trap of falling in love with the sound of his own voice.

At its best, coaching is an indispensable therapeutic tool. Just as it takes fathering and mothering to raise a balanced child, mothering and fathering principles are needed to meet the developmental arrests of the attachment-deprived client.

The sophisticated therapist values both and intuitively oscillates between the two, depending on the developmental needs of the client in the moment. Sometimes we guide with psychoeducation, therapeutic self-disclosure and active positive noticing, and most times we receptively nurture the client’s evolving practice of her own spontaneously arising self-expression and verbal ventilation.

Once again, I believe that in early therapy and many subsequent stages of therapy, the latter process typically needs to predominate. In this vein, I would guess that over the course of most therapies that I conduct, I listen about ninety percent of the time.

Finally, I often notice that the last phase of therapy is often characterized by increasing dialogicality—a more balanced fluidity of talking and listening. This conversational reciprocity is a key characteristic of healthy intimacy. Moreover, when therapy is successful, progress in mutuality begins to serve the client in creating healthier relationships in the outside world.

Dialogicality and the 4F’s (Fight/Flight/Freeze/Fawn)
Because of childhood abandonment and repetition compulsion in later relationships, many 4F types are “dying” to be heard. Different types however vary considerably in their dialogical needs over the course of therapy.

The Fawn/ Codependent type, who survived in childhood by becoming a parent’s sounding board or shoulder to cry on, may use her listening defense to encourage the therapist to do too much of the talking. With her eliciting defense, she may even invoke the careless therapist into narcissistically monologuing himself.

The Freeze/Dissociative type, who learned early to seek safety in the camouflage of silence, often needs a great deal of encouragement to discover and talk about his inner experience. Psychoeducation can help him understand how his healthy narcissistic need to express himself was never nurtured in his family.

Furthermore, freeze types can easily get lost in superficial and barely relevant free associations as they struggle to learn to talk about themselves. This of course needs to be welcomed for some time, but eventually we must help him see that his flights of fantasy or endless dream elaborations are primarily manifestations of his dissociative defense.

“Freeze types need to learn that emotionally disconnected talking is an old childhood habit that was developed to keep them buoyant above their undealt with emotional pain.” Because of this, we must repeatedly guide them toward their feelings so that they can learn to express their most important concerns.

The Fight/Narcissistic type, who often enters therapy habituated to holding court, typically dodges real intimacy with her talking defense. Therapy can actually be counterproductive for these types as months or years of uninterrupted monologuing in sessions exacerbate their sense of entitlement. By providing a steady diet of uninterrupted listening, the therapist strengthens their intimacy-destroying defense of over-controlling conversations. Sooner or later, we must insert ourselves into the relationship to work on helping them learn to listen.

As I write this, I remember Harry from my internship whose tiny capacity to listen to his wife evaporated as my fifty minutes of uninterrupted listening became his new norm and expectation in relationship. I felt guilty when I learned this from listening to a recorded message from his wife about how therapy was making him even more insufferable. I was relieved, however, a few years later when a different client told me that Harry’s wife eventually felt happy about this “therapeutic” change. Her husband’s increased self-centeredness was the last straw for her and she finally, with great relief, shed herself of him.

“A therapist, who is a fawn type herself, may hide in a listening and eliciting defense to avoid the scary work of gradually insinuating herself into the relationship and nudging it towards dialogicality.” If we do not nudge the client to interact, there will be no recovering.

The Flight/Obsessive-compulsive type sometimes presents as being more dialogical than other types. Like the freeze type, however, he can obsess about “safe” abstract concerns that are quite removed from his deeper issues. It is therefore up to the therapist to steer him into his deeper, emotionally based concerns to help him learn a more intimacy-enhancing dialogicality. Otherwise, the flight type can remain stuck and floundering in obsessive perseverations about superficial worries that are little more than left-brain dissociations from his repressed pain.

It is important to note here that all 4F types use left- or right-brain dissociative processes to avoid feeling and grieving their childhood losses. As dialogicality is established, it can then be oriented toward helping them to uncover and verbally and emotionally vent their ungrieved hurts.

4. Collaborative Relationship Repair

Collaborative relationship repair is the process by which relationships recover and grow closer from successful conflict resolution. Misattunements and periods of disaffection are existential to every relationship of substance. We all need to learn a process for restoring intimacy when a disagreement temporarily disrupts our feeling of being safely connected.

“I believe most people, if they think about it, realize that their best friends are those with whom they have had a conflict and found a way to work through it.” Once a friendship survives a hurtful misattunement, it generally means that it has moved through the fair-weather-friends stage of relationship.

Synchronistic with writing this section, my son uncharacteristically got into a conflict at school. During third grade recess two of his good friends, also uncharacteristically, started teasing him, and when they would not stop he pushed each of them. This earned them all a trip to the principal’s office. The principal is a strict but exceptionally wise and kind woman. My son’s offense, using physical force to resolve a conflict, was judged as the most serious violation of school policy, but his friends were also held responsible for their part and given an enlightening lecture on teasing.

My son, not used to being in trouble, had a good cry about it all. He then agreed that a one-day loss of recess plus writing letters of apology to his friends were fair consequences. Two days later, I asked him how things were going now between him and the two friends. With a look of surprise and delight, he told me: “It’s really funny, daddy. Now it feels like we’re even better friends than we were before.”

Rapport repair is probably the most transformative, intimacy-building process that a therapist can model. I guide this process from a perspective that recognizes that there is usually a mutual contribution to any misattunement or conflict. Therefore, a mutually respectful dialogical process is typically needed to repair rapport.

Exceptions to this include scapegoating and upsets that are instigated by a bullying narcissist. In those situations, they are solely at fault. I have often been saddened by codependent clients who apologize to their bullying parents as if they made their parents abuse them.

In more normal misattunements, I often initiate the repair process with two contiguous interventions. Firstly, I identify the misattunement (e.g., “I think I might have misunderstood you.”) And secondly, I then model vulnerability by describing what I think might be my contribution to the disconnection.

Abbreviated examples of this are: “I think I may have just been somewhat preachy…or tired…or inattentive…or impatient…or triggered by my own transference.” Owning your part in a conflict validates the normality of relational disappointment and the art of amiable resolution.

Taking responsibility for your role in a misunderstanding also helps deconstruct the client’s outer critic belief that relationships have to be perfect. At the same time, it models a constructive approach to resolving conflicts, and over time leads most clients to become interested in exploring their contribution to the conflict. This becomes an invaluable skill which they can then take into their outside relationships.

As one might expect, fight types are the least likely of the 4F’s to collaborate and own their side of the street in a misattunement. Extreme fight types such as those diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder have long been considered untreatable in traditional psychoanalysis for this reason.

With less extreme fight types, I sometimes succeed in psychoeducating them on how they learned their controlling defenses. From there I try to help them see how much they pay for being so controlling. At the top of the list of debits is intimacy-starvation. Consciously or not, they hunger for human warmth and they do not get it from those whom they control. Victims of fight types are too afraid of them to relax enough to generate authentically warm feelings.

Finally, I believe one of the most common reasons that clients terminate prematurely is the gradual accumulation of dissatisfactions that they do not feel safe enough to bring up or talk about. How sad it is that all kinds of promising relationships wither and die from an individual or couple’s inability to safely work through differences and conflict.

Earned Secure Attachment
In therapy, clients get the most out of their session by learning to stay in interpersonal contact while they communicate from their emotional pain. This gradually shows them that they are acceptable and worthwhile no matter what they are feeling and experiencing.

As survivors realize more deeply that their flashbacks are normal responses to abnormal childhood conditions, their shame begins to melt. This then eases their fear of being seen as defective. In turn, their habits of isolating or pushing others away during flashbacks diminish.

Earned secure attachment is a newly recognized category of healthy attachment. Many attachment therapists believe that effective treatment can help a survivor “earn” at least one truly intimate relationship. Good therapy can be an intimacy-modeling relationship. It fosters our learning and practicing of intimacy-making behavior. Your connection with your therapist can become a transitional earned secure attachment. This in turn can lead to the attainment of an earned secure attachment outside of therapy. I have repeatedly seen this result with my most successful clients, and I am grateful to report that my last experience with my own therapy lead me to this reward.

Scott Miller on Why Most Therapists Are Just Average (and How We Can Improve)

Escape from Babel

Tony Rousmaniere: Many people know you as a Common Factors researcher, but recently you’ve transitioned away from that. Could you explain both what Common Factors is and your transition away from it?
Scott Miller: Sure. As old-fashioned as it sounds, I’m interested in the truth—what it is that really matters in the effectiveness of treatment. Early on in my career, I learned and promoted and helped develop a very specific model of treatment, solution-focused therapy. We had some researchers come in near the end of my tenure at the Family Therapy Center in Milwaukee who found that, while what we were doing was effective, it wasn’t any more effective than anything else. Now, for somebody who had been running around claiming that doing solution-focused work would make you more effective in a shorter period of time, that was a huge shock.
All models are equivalent. Pick one that appeals to you and your client.


It was at that point that I started to cast about looking for an alternate explanation for the findings, which concluded that virtually everything clinicians did, however it was named, seemed to work despite the differences. That led back to the Common Factors—the theory that there are components shared by the various psychotherapy methodologies and that those shared components account more for positive therapy outcomes than any components that are unique to an approach. It was something that one of my college professors, Mike Lambert, had talked about, but that I had dismissed as not very sexy or interesting. I thought, how could that possibly be true?

It was at that time that I ran into a couple of people that I worked with for some time, Mark Hubble and Barry Duncan, and we had written several books about this. If you read Escape from Babel, which we coauthored, the argument wasn’t that Common Factors were a way of doing therapy, but rather a frame for people—therapists speaking different languages—to share and meet with each other. They were a common ground.

But by 1999, it was very clear to me that Common Factors were being turned into a model by folks, including members of our own team, and viewed as a way to do therapy. But you can’t do a Common Factors model of therapy—it’s illogical. The Common Factors are based on all models. This caused a large amount of consternation and difficulty, numerous discussions, and eventually I suggested to the team that the way therapists work didn’t make much of a difference.

What was critical was whether it worked with a particular client and a particular therapist at a particular time. Mike Lambert was already moving in this direction and said, “Let’s just measure them. Let’s find out. Who cares what model you use? Let’s make sure that the client is engaged by it and that it’s helping them.” So we began measuring, and what became clear very quickly was that some therapists were better at it than others.

So, since about 2004, Mark Hubble and others at the International Center for Clinical Excellence (ICCE) have been researching the practice patterns of top performing therapists. It’s not that I don’t believe, and in fact know, that the Common Factors are what accounts for effective psychotherapy. It’s just that an explanation is not the same as a strategy for effecting change. And the Common Factors can never be used as such. All models are equivalent. Pick one that appeals to you and your client.

The Siren Song

TR: So Common Factors are a way of studying the effects of psychotherapy, but not a way of actually implementing it.
SM: Well, by definition, you can’t do a Common Factors model because then it’s a specific factor. I’m not saying the Common Factors don’t matter—what I’m saying is that they are a therapeutic dead end. They will not help you do therapy. You still have to have a method for doing the therapy, and the Common Factors are not a method. Why?
What I say is, pick one of the 400 that appeals to you and then measure and see: Does your client like it, too? If not, then it’s time for you to change, not your client.
All treatment approaches return equal efficacy when the data is aggregated and methods compared in a randomized controlled trial. So you still need some kind of way to operationalize the Common Factors.

Since we have 400 or so different models of therapy, why invent a new one? It seems to be because in our field, each person has to have it their own way. The promise of a new model is a siren song in our profession that we have a hard time not turning our ship towards. What I say is, pick one of the 400 that appeals to you and then measure and see: Does your client like it, too? If not, then it’s time for you to change, not your client.
TR: You have an article out in Psychotherapy where you mentioned three keys for therapists to improve their work. Your major focus now seems to be how therapists improve their work with each client. Can you describe those three keys?
SM: The first one is knowing your baseline. You can’t get any better at an activity until you actually know how good you are at it now. We therapists think we know, but it turns out that data indicates that we generally, as a group, inflate our effectiveness by as much as 65%. So you really have to know just how effective you are in the aggregate. That means you’re going to have to use some kind of outcome tool to measure the effectiveness of your work with clients over time.
We generally, as a group, inflate our effectiveness by as much as 65%.


The second step is to get deliberate feedback. So once you know how effective you are, then it’s time to get some coaching, get some feedback, and you can do that in two ways. Number one, you can use the very same measures that you used to determine your effectiveness to get feedback from your clients on a case-by-case basis. Meaning that you can actually see when you’re helping and when you’re not, and use that to alter the course of the services provided to that individual client.

The second kind of feedback to get is from somebody whose work you admire, who has a slightly broader skill base than you do, and have them look at your work and comment specifically about those particular cases where your work falls short. In other words, you begin to look for patterns in your data about when it is you’re not particularly helpful to people, and seek out somebody who can provide you with coaching. It’s like in golf, once you know what your handicap is you can hire a coach who can look at your game and make fine tweaks. It’s not about revamping your whole style, or about learning an entirely new method of treatment, but pushing your skills and abilities to the next level of performance.

The third piece is deliberate practice. The key word in that expression is “deliberate.” All of us practice. We go to work. But it turns out the number of hours spent on a job is not a good predictor. In fact, it’s a poor predictor of treatment effectiveness. So what you have to do is identify the edge of your current realm of reliable performance. In other words, where’s the next spot where you don’t do your work quite as well? And then develop a plan, acquire the skills, practice those skills and then put them into place. Then measure again to see, have you made any improvement?

I can’t take credit for coming up with these three steps. We’ve simply borrowed them lock, stock, and barrel from the performance literature, and in particular, Anders Ericsson’s work, which has been applied in fields like the training of pilots, chess masters, computer programmers, surgeons, etc. If we have any sort of claim to fame, it’s that we’ve begun applying these to psychotherapy for the first time.
TR: One of my first reactions to this is, aren’t some people just born better therapists?
SM: Well Ericsson notes that the search for genetic factors responsible for the performance of eminent individuals has been surprisingly unsuccessful. In sports we often think, “Oh, there must be some genetic component involved here,” or “he just has the gift of music.” But it turns out that virtually everyone that researchers looked at where the “gift” is implied, even with Mozart—he had been playing the piano for 17 years before he wrote anything that was unique, which happened at about age 21. He’d been playing since he was 4. His father had been doing music scales with him since he was in the crib. So once you remove the practice component, you just don’t find any evidence for genetic factors—with very few exceptions.

For example, in boxing it appears that people with a slightly longer reach have a slight advantage. But we also know that if baseball pitchers don’t start pitching at a particular age, their arms will not make the adjustment required to throw the ball as fast and accurately as professional pitchers do.

There was another study that looked at social skills. You often will hear, in addition to the genetic claims, that, “Good therapists just have great social skills.” Well, they’ve measured that. It turns out not to be the case, and the reason is that these kinds of ideas are too high or general a level of abstraction. The real difference between the best and the rest is that they possess more deep, domain-specific knowledge. They have a highly contextualized knowledge base that is much thicker than average performers, and much more accessible to them and responsive to contextual clues.

Deep Contextual Knowledge

TR: Could you give a specific example of what a deep contextual knowledge would look like in a therapy room?
SM: Well the classic one—and I say it to make fun of it—is suicide contracting. Or the suicide prevention interview.
Somebody comes in and says, “I’m going to commit suicide.” And we respond with, “Do you have a plan? Have you ever attempted this before?” Blah, blah, blah. That’s decontextualized knowledge. You could ask those questions to a stick.
Somebody comes in and says, “I’m going to commit suicide.” And we respond with, “Do you have a plan? Have you ever attempted this before?” Blah, blah, blah. That’s decontextualized knowledge. You could ask those questions to a stick.

What a top performer does is ask those questions very differently, nuanced by the client’s presentation, in ways that the rest of us can’t see. Because of their more complex and well-organized knowledge, they can actually see patterns in what clients present that the rest of us would miss and respond to in a much more generic fashion. Is this making sense?
TR: Absolutely.
SM: So the real question is how to help clinicians develop that highly contextualized knowledge. Because once you have it, not only can you retrieve that knowledge at the appropriate moment, but it turns out you can make unique combinations and use them in novel ways that would never occur to the rest of us, or would only occur to the rest of us by chance.
TR: This also doesn’t suggest that treatment manuals are necessarily the best way to train therapists.
SM: We know that following a treatment manual doesn’t result in better outcomes and it doesn’t decrease variability among clinicians using the same manual. So you still get a spread of outcomes, even when everybody is doing the same treatment.

At the same time, I think it’s critical that therapists learn a way of working, and, in the beginning at least, they hew to that approach. Why? Well, if you begin to introduce variation in your performance early on, you will not have the same ability to extend your performance in the future.

Let me give you an example. The first time I had a guitar lesson, I was taking classical guitar with this really interesting teacher. We spent the entire first lesson on how he wanted me to hold the neck of the guitar with my left hand—and I’m right handed. He said, “If you try to vary your hand grip from the outset, you’ll never have the same reach and ability to vary reliably when you need to in the future. So start with a common foundation, and then when we need to introduce variations later, we will.” My sense is that therapists instead begin in a highly complex, nuanced way and introduce variations into their style randomly and without much thought.
TR: So it would be better to begin with a frame or structure that provides a stable base, and then develop the deep contextualized knowledge later on.
SM: And to vary your work in ways that allow you to measure the impact of your variation against what you usually do. This is the key. Otherwise, what you have is a bag of tricks. You can do them all, but there’s no cohesiveness to it, and you can’t explain why you vary at certain times rather than others.
TR: Starting with a manual isn’t necessarily a bad idea then.
SM: Absolutely not. In fact, I would suggest grabbing a manual and going to a place where they are teaching a specific approach that will allow you to practice and also watch others in a two-way mirror. Once you have that foundation down, you can introduce your own variations.
TR: I hear therapists say, “I have 20 years experience,” or “I have 30 years experience.” Does this research find that experience, itself, makes someone better?
SM: No, it doesn’t. We know that not only in therapy, but in a variety of activities. If you think about it, you’ll understand why. While you’re doing your work, you don’t have time enough to correct your mistakes thoughtfully.
The difference between the best and the rest is what they do before they meet a client and after they’ve met them, not what they’re doing when they’re with them.
So what we found, which I think is quite shocking, is that the difference between the best and the rest is what they do before they meet a client and after they’ve met them, not what they’re doing when they’re with them.  Let me give you an example from a field that is similar—figure skating. If you watch a championship figure skater perform a gold medal winning performance, you can describe what they did, but it won’t tell you how to do it yourself. Do you follow me?
TR: Yeah.
SM: In order to be able to accomplish that performance, that figure skater must do something before they go on the ice, and after they leave the ice. It’s that time that leads to superior performance. You can go out and try to turn triple axels during the performances as much as you want. That experience will not make you better. You have to plan, practice, perform, and then reflect. Most of us don’t see all of the effort that goes into that great performance. We just appreciate how good it is.
TR: But one of the tricky differences is that we’re trying to help each client. And if we’re practicing new skills, invariably we’re going to make mistakes. And that’s emotionally harder because you’re making a mistake with a real person sitting across from you.
SM: Well, number one, we’re all already making these mistakes. And the ones that I’m referring to are generally small and not fatal. So your performance doesn’t improve by isolating gross mistakes, or gross skills. Your performance improves when your usual skills begin to break down—meaning they don’t deliver—and remembering those, thinking about them after the session, and making a plan for what to do instead. That’s where improvement takes place.

When I hear people mention this kind of objection, I think they’re thinking that the errors are far grosser than what I’m talking about. Once therapists assess their baseline, most are going to find out—to their, perhaps, surprise—that they’re average in terms of their outcome, or slightly less than average. So if we’re average, then it’s not about bringing your game up to the average level. It’s about extending it to the next. That requires a focus on small process errors.

Let me give you another example. We have a pianist come and perform at one of our conferences. She is eight years old and she is really unbelievably able as a concert pianist. She plays a very difficult piece. I ask her if she made any mistakes. She says, “Of course, I made a lot.” I tell her I didn’t hear any, to which she says, “Well, that’s because you’re no good at this.”

I then say, “What do you mean? And what do you do about your mistakes?”

She says, “Look. I made lots of mistakes, but you cannot get better at playing the piano while you’re performing.” This is an 8-year-old.

I say, “So what do you do?”

She says, “Well, I hear these small errors. I remember them. My coach in the audience remembers them, and then that’s what I isolate for periods of practice between performances.”

Most of Us Are Average

TR: How many therapists really practice between sessions? I mean, that’s pretty rare, isn’t it?
SM: Most of us are average.
TR: Right.
SM: And 50% of us are below average, right?
The best performers spend significantly more time reading books and articles….and reviewing basic therapeutic texts.
So very few people do it, and this is the real mystery of expertise and excellence. Why do some go this extra mile? There’s no financial pay-off. I think this will change in the future, but at the present time, you don’t get paid one dime more if you’re average, crappy, or really good. The fees are set by the service provided.
TR: That is a great problem with our field and I hope that does change in the future.
SM: I think that we’re seeing movement in that direction. I think that our field will become like other fields, where outcome of the process is what leads to payment, rather than the delivery of it.
TR: So back to practicing. Therapists read books and go to workshops, but that’s kind of passive learning. What are your thoughts about that?
SM: That’s a component of practicing. A graduate student that I’ve been working with, Darryl Chow, who just finished his PhD at University of Perth in Australia, did his dissertation on this topic and found that the best performers spend significantly more time reading books and articles. We also know that the best performers spend more time reviewing basic therapeutic texts.

Therapists are often in search of the variation from their performance that will allow them to reach an individual client they’re struggling with. Top performers not only do that, but they’re also constantly going back to basics to make sure they’ve provided those. They spend time reading basic books that may be hugely boring but are nonetheless really helpful. Gerard Eagin’s The Skilled Helper, Corey Hammond’s book on therapeutic communication—these basic texts that remind us of things that we often forget in the flurry of cases we see every week.
TR: So reading counts. What about workshops?
SM:
We don’t know about workshops. I’m cynical about them, simply because they’re not set up in a way that respects any principles of the last 30 years of research on human learning.
We don’t know about workshops. I’m cynical about them, simply because they’re not set up in a way that respects any principles of the last 30 years of research on human learning. Six hours, chosen by the person who needs the continuing education, and there’s no testing of skills, acquisition of skills, no awareness of particular deficits in practice. Greg Neimeyer has done a fair bit of research on this and he finds no evidence that our current CE standards lead to improved performance. None.
TR: There’s a psychotherapy instructor I know, Jon Frederickson, who has his students go through psychotherapy drills, kind of like role-playing drills in a circle. Would that count as practice?
SM: It depends, but I like the sound of it. Not a scrimmage, where you do a whole game, but rather drilling people in very specific small skill sets again and again. That aligns with the principles of Ericsson’s researchers.

If you’re an experienced professional, your motivation for going to a CE event can be really varied. I know for me, I’m often just grateful to have a day off and hang out with friends. The particular content of the workshop, I’m ashamed to admit, is less important. The incentives are just all wrong.
TR: It goes back to your motivation question.
SM: I don’t think our field incentivizes that kind of stuff. In fact, you can be punished.
TR: Well, one incentive I discovered myself in my own private practice was my drop-out rate. That motivated me to get further training. Maybe other therapists don’t have the same problem I had, but I know that was a powerful motivation.
SM: Drop-out can be both a good and a bad thing. For example, our current system incentivizes therapists to have a butt in the seat every available, billable hour. What that means is that therapists may be incentivized—we have some data about this, too—to keep clients, whether they are changing or not. That’s what I mean when I say that the incentives are all screwed up. There are, every once in a while, motivated people like yourself who say, “Wait a second. There has to be something beyond this.” But that requires a degree of reflection that may be difficult for most of us, especially if we are well defended. For these folks, people drop out because they are in denial about their own problems, not because of anything they, themselves, might be doing.

You put those things together and it can be a fatal combination. We need to take a step back as payers for services and as consumers of services and think about the incentives in our current system. I know this sounds terribly economic, but I think it’s important for our field.
TR: That sounds sensible to me. What about watching psychotherapy videos by psychotherapy experts like the ones psychotherapy.net produces. Would that count as practice?
SM: Yes it would. Especially in the beginning, when you have identified a particular area or weakness in your skill set that you may need some help with. In essence, you’re spending more time swimming in it while reflecting, which is the key part.
TR: Do you have other examples of deliberate practice that you’ve heard of therapists engaging in?
SM: Well there’s the stop-start strategies that Darryl Chow has been talking about. And Chris Hall is doing a study at UNC that we’re involved with, where therapists will watch short segments of a video and then they have to respond in the moment in a way that is maximally empathic, collaborative, and non-distancing. So they’re training therapists to develop a certain degree of proficiency with fairly straightforward clients.

Then you begin to vary the emotional context, or the physical context, in which the service is delivered. So now the client’s not just saying, “Hey, I feel sad.” They’re threatening to drop out or to commit suicide. More difficult and challenging things. And then simply spending time outside of the office planning and discussing individual particular cases with peers or consultants is another strategy.

In Darryl Chow’s research, which I think is the most exciting stuff, he found that within the first eight years of practice, therapists with the best outcomes spend approximately seven times more hours than the bottom two-thirds of clinicians engaged in these kinds of activities. Seven times.
TR: Wow.
SM:
The key to this is really starting early and investing a little bit at a time. It’s sort of like how you’re advised to save for your retirement. Not in the last five years. Not in the first five years, but a little bit every year.
The good news is, now that we know this, we can start this process earlier. The bad news is, if you’ve been at this for awhile, it becomes impossible to catch up with the best. We just age out. We can’t do it. The key to this is really starting early and investing a little bit at a time. It’s sort of like how you’re advised to save for your retirement. Not in the last five years. Not in the first five years, but a little bit every year.
TR: One advantage that great athletes have is that their coaches gets to determine day by day what moves or what performances they’re going to practice. I run a training program here at University of Alaska, Fairbanks, at the University Center for Student Health and Counseling, and I don’t get to pick what clients come in day to day. It could be anxiety, depression, any number of different things, so I’ll do a training on, let’s say, working with anxiety, but the client that comes in will have depression. So what do you do about that?
SM: Well, in essence, we’re violating John Wooden’s primary rule, which is, we are allowing students to scrimmage before they drill. And I have to tell you, all students want to scrimmage, but what you need to do more of, before and during, is drilling. The kind of drilling that I think your colleague was talking about. Or you go back to, “Here’s how we hold the guitar.” And we play very simple songs and then we begin varying the drill with greater degrees of complexity once easier tasks are managed.
TR: So you’d recommend a longer period of training and practice and drills before seeing clients.
SM: I’d want to see that kind of mastery. Let me give you an example. Do you want the pilot to be proficient at flying in fair weather, as demonstrated on the simulator, before they fly a plane?
TR: Yes.
SM: You want them to be prepared for all the complications: “Wait a minute, it’s raining,” “Wait a minute, you’ve got problems with your rudder.” These are complex skills and, yes, we can teach people to manage them as one-offs, but then they never integrate it into a coherent package that makes it easier to retrieve from memory later on when they need that skill. If it’s viewed as a one-off—“With the anxiety client, I did this”—it’s not integrated into an organized structure for retrieval later on.
TR: So on a therapist’s resume, you’d want to see not just hours of direct service provided, but also hours spent practicing and learning.
SM: Or, better yet, somebody who has measured results, like yourself. All I need is an average pilot. I don’t need the best pilot in the world, because most of the time there’s not huge challenges. If you can document your results, and if you’re checking in with me, we’re going to catch most of the errors anyway. And then I want a therapist who has a professional development plan, that’s working on the aggregation of small improvements over a long period of time.
TR: So for tracking results, I know you recommend quantitative outcome measures, like the Outcome Rating Scale or the Outcome Questionnaire. But I have found that there are certain clients that quantitative measures just don’t seem valid for. It’s not a large percentage of clients, but there are some that underreport problems at first. So it can look like they’re deteriorating even while they’re improving. Can you recommend any kind of qualitative methods or other methods of trying to accurately assess outcome in addition to those measures?
SM: I don’t buy it. Personally, I just don’t see that stuff and I would offer a very different explanation for it. Let me give you an example.

We know that each time there is a deterioration in scores, the probability of client drop-out goes up, whether or not the therapist thinks that it’s a good sign that the client is “getting in touch with reality and finally admitting their issues,” or had inflated how they really were doing for the first visit. So the key task here is not to say, “There must be another measure,” but to figure out what skills are required for me to get a higher score.

Dig Into the One You Know

TR: That’s a new perspective. To look at what I can change about my performance, rather than a new measure to assess it.
SM: Now you see why I think our field is forever chasing its tail. Because instead of becoming fully connected to our performance, we are constantly looking for the trick that will make us great.
Instead of becoming fully connected to our performance, we are constantly looking for the trick that will make us great.
It’s like a singer looking for the song that will make them famous rather than learning how to sing. We’re forever going to workshops, and the level of the workshops are often so basic even when they’ve claimed to be advanced. The truth is, you can’t do an advanced workshop on psychotherapy for 100 people. You can’t do it. The content is too abstract and too general. You need to see a clinician’s performance and fine-tune it. So therapists go around and around, constantly picking up these techniques that they use in an unreliable fashion, and their outcomes don’t improve, but their confidence does.
TR: So instead of picking up a new modality every year, dig into the one you know, preferably with a real expert, and get individualized or maybe small group training and practice.
SM: I think that once you’ve achieved a level of proficiency, the only hope for improvement is to get feedback on your specific deficits. And yours will be different from mine.
TR: It sounds like you’d definitely be a fan of videotaping sessions and reviewing them and that kind of thing.
SM: Not alone—with an expert eye reviewing small segments. Otherwise the flood of information from video will have you second-guessing yourself, which can actually interrupt the way you work in an unhelpful way.
TR: What about live supervision?
SM: I’m not averse to it, but I think it’s a little bit like a GPS—it can correct your moves in the moment, but you become GPS-dependent and you don’t learn the territory. What’s required in learning is reflection. If you don’t reflect, you can’t learn. As my uncle used to say, “You got to study that thang.”

I actually had great opportunities with live supervision when I was at the Family Therapy Center and got corrected in the moment by two really masterful clinicians. But I also think that what really made a difference was sitting behind a mirror, without any financial worries, watching endless hours of psychotherapy being done, and then talking about it afterwards. “This was said. What could you have said? How come we said this? What do you need to do?” It was a heavenly experience and as a result, I came away with a very highly nuanced and contextualized way of delivering that particular model.

And today, when I’m doing my Scott Miller way of working and I notice that a particular client wasn’t engaged or interested at a particular moment, I think, “What could I have said differently?” It’s at that small micro level that improved outcome is likely to be found. As opposed to just gross generic level.

People go to workshops and say, “I’ve had some traumatized clients. Maybe I’ll learn that EMDR thing.”

“Really?” I think. “Do you know how effective you are in working with these clients already?”

“No, I don’t.”

“What makes you think you need to do EMDR?”

“Well, it just seems so interesting.”

And I think, “Oh, you’re doomed.” Not that there’s anything wrong with EMDR, but I have to tell you, I watched Francine Shapiro do it and it looks a lot different than some other people I’ve seen doing it.
TR: So the problem there is switching modalities rather than getting a lot better at the one you’re currently using.
SM: It’s looking for a trick rather than thinking through, what else could I have said? What else could I have done that I already know how to do? Or getting a little bit of tweaking from a trusted mentor.
TR: I know you present this information all over the world. Do you find therapists are open and receptive to these ideas?
SM: Yes. I think that there are some very real barriers that we need to address, but yes, I do.
TR: This has been a really fascinating conversation. Thank you for making the time.
SM: I like this stuff. I’m fascinated by it and I’m very hopeful about the direction we’re going research-wise, so thank you for giving me the opportunity.